I lost the two last Games as town coming in to this and wasn't confidant in my ability to read people, so I decided early on to lightning rod a NK after getting VT. My last two games were porcelain waltz and hayate.
@rhand glossing over my action saying lying isn't pro town is an over simplification and a really bad understanding of motive. Explain specifically why I would make that claim as scum. You know, the guy that has botched most of his scum claims.
I'm still fine with lynching lngr or killjoy.
Hm... You claiming vt after that not-counterclaimed hammering thing probably does not make sense as scum.
Weren't you afraid of someone counterclaiming you when you first crumbed it?
Ugh, so I was working out a POE list on who was the best choice for lynch/dayvig. Now it's all screwed up from Hawk's claim going PR > VT. I'm strong for LnGrrR because of Shockwave, except my reservation about killing replacements the day they replaced. Hunger's been a huge town read for me. I've stated my view on Generic's likelihood as town in 717. Hawk, I'm not super thrilled about the lie, but I understand trying to draw an NK as vanilla, since that's a vanilla's duty. As I've been reading Killjoy, there are a few things that don't sit well with me. Post 291 he resists the Antny wagon. Post 294, he mentions cyan avoiding questions until Antny is mislynched. Antny was not even close to looking town, so why use the suggestion of fear that he's town about to be lynched?
Yes. I am unconfirmed, and if I must die for the town to win I will do so. Now, had I posted this list Day 1, I'd probably stick myself in the 3 spot, since I wouldn't have had my interactions to show. But it's one of the things I hate is when an unconfirmed person leaves themselves off a POE list even though they still have potential.
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She wants a ride on the pony, dude.
Mafia Stats
Kill shot: BB
Issue with my shooting? Please visit my helpdesk and help me learn to aim!
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@Cantrip: do you think it has value for you to get shot after we have Wheat's claim?
I THINK I have been on the same page as you regarding what the ball does.
1. Do you think there is value in shooting Cantrip now?
2. See my above question to Wheat. Can you make sense of what he is saying having been a ball-holder(teehee).
Those are my final answers, and yes Regis, I'll take my million dollars.
So, 5 scum and a SK in a 16 person game? Seems balanced.
I asked because I want to know how much work I had to put into this game from the jump.
@Karn - This was also asked by Generic earlier. Do you actually think their are 5 scum, or are you just throwing out names of people you find scummy and have no real clue who the scum actually is?
I gut read him as town during rvs but later in the game he was still useless and my town reads thought he was scum. At this point we still don't have much info and karn made a good case not to mention seppel wanting to lynch him and then getting nked.
@rhand, I've seen only like 2 hammer roles and they were in specialties.
Hunger did not say "If Generic is set on making it him or someone else I want it to be him. Even if he's not I still just want it to be him", that was something I wanted to post at the top of my post and something I myself am saying
**** curse
when are we going to go back to a site with code that isn't *****
We never are. Being on Curse will ultimately be the death of MTGS Mafia, but it's hard to understand them not really caring. Mafia is just a luxury on the site, it doesn't give it any added value/revenue/etc.
I don't think we need to mass claim today. We have viable lynch candidates, and maybe still have a real information role hiding out there.
I don't care about a mass claim. Either we end up with my POE list (did Karn claim a PR? I don't remember one and he's not on my list...) or the mafia pigeon-hole themselves into claims that are easily tested.
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She wants a ride on the pony, dude.
Mafia Stats
Kill shot: BB
Issue with my shooting? Please visit my helpdesk and help me learn to aim!
Ugh, so I was working out a POE list on who was the best choice for lynch/dayvig. Now it's all screwed up from Hawk's claim going PR > VT. I'm strong for LnGrrR because of Shockwave, except my reservation about killing replacements the day they replaced. Hunger's been a huge town read for me. I've stated my view on Generic's likelihood as town in 717. Hawk, I'm not super thrilled about the lie, but I understand trying to draw an NK as vanilla, since that's a vanilla's duty. As I've been reading Killjoy, there are a few things that don't sit well with me. Post 291 he resists the Antny wagon. Post 294, he mentions cyan avoiding questions until Antny is mislynched. Antny was not even close to looking town, so why use the suggestion of fear that he's town about to be lynched?
As long as you lynch hawk, shoot me. And do it first to show I'm talking from a town perspective.
Fine with me. As long as everyone agrees.
Unvote.
Vote: Hawk
Also, it feels like it's been a while since we got some meaningful content from you, Generic - I understand that it looks like you've lost interest in this game, but a list of your reads at least would be nice in case you do end up flipping town. Between the time that has passed since the last time you mentioned it, and the 3 games I'm in right now, I don't remember any of your reads toDay.
I'm going out of town again this weekend and would like to be shot before that. I've already said my reads and think that the last three scum are lngrr, killjoy and generic. If generic is somehow town, please take a better look at karn.
I'm going out of town again this weekend and would like to be shot before that. I've already said my reads and think that the last three scum are lngrr, killjoy and generic. If generic is somehow town, please take a better look at karn.
You think there are 5 scum and a serial killer in a 16 person game?
I have sort of the opposite problem as you Karn, I'm reading too many people as town.
Like, I for some reason I believe hawk and don't really want to lynch him. I will admit he makes a decent vig target if the majority want it since he has already claimed VT.
I also feel like Generic is town, but he also has the same thing going as hawk with a VT claim.
@Generic - I really don't like your argument here. You are saying you are fine with dying as long as we lynch hawk, but you were also saying the same thing about Rhand before his claim and it's looking pretty likely you were wrong there. If you are VT like you say your are, then following the same logic, maybe you are also wrong about hawk? Like using the same logic shouldn't we go after Shock right now because Voxx was town and he had Shock as his top scum read? Why is your read on hawk more valid than his on Shock, especially considering you were most likely wrong about your other sure read? I'm trying to gauge if you actually believe what you are saying. It feels like you are playing in your own world and not paying attention to anyone else, which frankly isn't very helpful. Like honestly, if you get vig'd right now and flip town, I'm not ever sure how much it will change my read on hawk because I don't know if you are coming from a team-player-town mindset or an OMGUS-town mindset. Both of which could be right or wrong, but one I have more faith in.
I think I might be getting to the point where the town slip of Killjoy isn't bearing as much weight as it used to so he's sort of in the middle for me. Like I don't think he has really done anything this game other than town slip, which feels genuine, but certainly could be forced.
LnG slot I think is my top lynch/vig choice, but there are a couple things holding me back and I was hoping to see LnG give an effort first.
Cantrip/TK I think are both town, but I guess there are a couple things to give me pause there as well, more with TK than Cantrip though.
I'm also not sold on Wheat like you seem to be. He hasn't done anything overly scummy, but has also claimed a typically scum role and is just kind of always there in my PoE piles. His play looks like it could come from scum trying to be town even if it isn't actually scummy play. But I'd rather worry about him on a later Day.
And then of course there is you. I think the interaction with Niv really bought you a lot of town points, but I also feel like you haven't done a good job of using your town cred to do much analysis which has been bothering me. It is a bit curious that once the vig talks started up you seem to be getting more involved. Still have a town read on you for that interaction, but would like to see more scumhunting.
And speaking of not using town cred...
@Cyan - I gather you are a strong player from the talk in this thread. You are also about as confirmed a townie as there is. Grab the reins and let's figure this thing out no?
I have sort of the opposite problem as you Karn, I'm reading too many people as town.
Like, I for some reason I believe hawk and don't really want to lynch him. I will admit he makes a decent vig target if the majority want it since he has already claimed VT.
I also feel like Generic is town, but he also has the same thing going as hawk with a VT claim.
@Generic - I really don't like your argument here. You are saying you are fine with dying as long as we lynch hawk, but you were also saying the same thing about Rhand before his claim and it's looking pretty likely you were wrong there. If you are VT like you say your are, then following the same logic, maybe you are also wrong about hawk? Like using the same logic shouldn't we go after Shock right now because Voxx was town and he had Shock as his top scum read? Why is your read on hawk more valid than his on Shock, especially considering you were most likely wrong about your other sure read? I'm trying to gauge if you actually believe what you are saying. It feels like you are playing in your own world and not paying attention to anyone else, which frankly isn't very helpful. Like honestly, if you get vig'd right now and flip town, I'm not ever sure how much it will change my read on hawk because I don't know if you are coming from a team-player-town mindset or an OMGUS-town mindset. Both of which could be right or wrong, but one I have more faith in.
I think I might be getting to the point where the town slip of Killjoy isn't bearing as much weight as it used to so he's sort of in the middle for me. Like I don't think he has really done anything this game other than town slip, which feels genuine, but certainly could be forced.
LnG slot I think is my top lynch/vig choice, but there are a couple things holding me back and I was hoping to see LnG give an effort first.
Cantrip/TK I think are both town, but I guess there are a couple things to give me pause there as well, more with TK than Cantrip though.
I'm also not sold on Wheat like you seem to be. He hasn't done anything overly scummy, but has also claimed a typically scum role and is just kind of always there in my PoE piles. His play looks like it could come from scum trying to be town even if it isn't actually scummy play. But I'd rather worry about him on a later Day.
And then of course there is you. I think the interaction with Niv really bought you a lot of town points, but I also feel like you haven't done a good job of using your town cred to do much analysis which has been bothering me. It is a bit curious that once the vig talks started up you seem to be getting more involved. Still have a town read on you for that interaction, but would like to see more scumhunting.
And speaking of not using town cred...
@Cyan - I gather you are a strong player from the talk in this thread. You are also about as confirmed a townie as there is. Grab the reins and let's figure this thing out no?
I'm definitely in the same camp as Karn; there are too many people that I have varying degrees of suspicion toward. Like the only people that I am not suspicious of are WG and Hunger, and these two are so obviously town that saying you're not suspicious of them is like saying the sky is blue.
It's been a busy work week for me, plus an out of town friend is visting, but he's elsewhere tomorrow so I'll work on that wagon/vote count analysis for Antny and Fulcrum.
Ugh, so I was working out a POE list on who was the best choice for lynch/dayvig. Now it's all screwed up from Hawk's claim going PR > VT. I'm strong for LnGrrR because of Shockwave, except my reservation about killing replacements the day they replaced. Hunger's been a huge town read for me. I've stated my view on Generic's likelihood as town in 717. Hawk, I'm not super thrilled about the lie, but I understand trying to draw an NK as vanilla, since that's a vanilla's duty. As I've been reading Killjoy, there are a few things that don't sit well with me. Post 291 he resists the Antny wagon. Post 294, he mentions cyan avoiding questions until Antny is mislynched. Antny was not even close to looking town, so why use the suggestion of fear that he's town about to be lynched?
I don't care about a mass claim. Either we end up with my POE list (did Karn claim a PR? I don't remember one and he's not on my list...) or the mafia pigeon-hole themselves into claims that are easily tested.
Yeah, I realized I forgot him. I'd place him in slot number 5, moving Hunger and myself down to 6 and 7. Both Wheat and Cantrip have claimed a power role; Wheat's is believable as town (this is a bias though), and Cantrip's appears strange enough for me to accept it as town in my POE.
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She wants a ride on the pony, dude.
Mafia Stats
Kill shot: BB
Issue with my shooting? Please visit my helpdesk and help me learn to aim!
Sir karn requests a reads list from me. Hunger declares my opinions invalid.
I'm not wasting effort therefore.
Guess what? It's the multitude of posts exactly like this one that have given me little faith in your reads. Instead of engaging and giving serious replies you use the emotional cop-out AGAIN and ignore everything to focus on the one thing that can be construed as negative.
Maybe it's just me, but when you have like 10+ posts where you don't reply to people and get all worked up and end it with saying "**** you" or "I don't give a ****" I don't put a lot of faith into what you have to say because I read it as not coming for a sound analytic point of view, but from an OMGUS emotionally-invested I-want-to-be-right-so-bad-so-I-can-throw-it-in-your-face point of view. I don't really respond well to threats and emotional ploys, but instead prefer logic. You have a post saying why you find hawk scummy, which is good, but it's in the middle of a bunch of posts where you freak out and refuse to engage with people and answer questions.
Like, do you actually expect people to respond positively to and respect your reads when you continually say things like, "I don't give a ****," and "**** you," and "**** the logic?"
@Hunger: I missed your question. The item is called crystal ball and i din't know what it does.
I think it might make wheat and cantrip an unaligned pair, which is what I am trying to figure out.
@Hunger: I missed your question. The item is called crystal ball and i din't know what it does.
I think it might make wheat and cantrip an unaligned pair, which is what I am trying to figure out.
My ability is inherent, Cantrip's seems to have something to do with the ball.
Compare it to yourself and Cyan, although the item sorta is in reverse I guess? You get what I mean anyway, I hope.
Hmm, so I guess Rhand isn't thinking the same thing as me regarding the ball. Not sure if that changes anything though.
@Generic - Sorry your life isn't going well. If you are just going to go through the motions and not really going to put in a lot of effort then it is what it is I guess and you probably do make sense as a vig target. I still think you are town though and would rather shoot someone that has a chance of being scum.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Votes on the wagon that stand out: Shock, Hawk(I know that Hawk now tells us that his last vote was a 'gambit', but that isn't particularly relevant here)
People voting fulcrum before he got counterclaimed: Shockwave, Rhand, TK-421, Cyan, WG
People that did not vote either dead scum in this game:
Sir Karn
Killjoy
Cantripmancer
This ultimate conclusion comes as zero surprise to me, because Karn and Killjoy are 2 people that I've been suspicious of on and off allgame. I haven't even looked at interactions with Niv yet..I don't think I even need to at this point.
Considering hawk's 'gambit', before we go any further, I want to get one thing clarified:
@Cantrip, are you still sticking to your story that you should be dayvigged and that this will provide us information?
If this is the case, I should use my kill on CM. And I would like to see a wagon on Killjoy after that. I hated the way Killjoy acted toward the Antny wagon on Day 1, which I was reminded of while looking at the vote counts just now. And the way that KJ pushed me was also scummy. That reminds me of the other thing I want to analyze..my own wagon. Though WG was voting me on and off and I have a pretty strong townread on him, so.
I'm also unimpressed with Shockwave at this juncture. His vote on Antny was really unimpressive, and LnG's play since replacing in *really* has not inspired any confidence. Still, Shockwave was throwing off so many newb town tells early in the game, he's maybe 3rd/4th on my suspect list.
@Generic: Regardless of your alignment, you need to either shape up or do the right thing and request to be replaced.
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What do you think of Wheat, Karn?[/quote]
He has been one of my strongest town reads all game.
I'm voting for him.
^
Hm... You claiming vt after that not-counterclaimed hammering thing probably does not make sense as scum.
Weren't you afraid of someone counterclaiming you when you first crumbed it?
1. Killjoy
2. LnGrrrR
3. 7hawk77
4. Generic
5. Hunger
6. Myself
Vote Killjoy
My personal feelings are that we gun one and lynch the other of the top two in that list.
Mafia Stats
Kill shot: BB
Issue with my shooting? Please visit my helpdesk and help me learn to aim!
Mafia Stats
Kill shot: BB
Issue with my shooting? Please visit my helpdesk and help me learn to aim!
Mafia Stats
Kill shot: BB
Issue with my shooting? Please visit my helpdesk and help me learn to aim!
FWIW I did the same thing in uPick re: Adding myself to my PoE list as Town.
If you have no idea what the ball does, then how was what TK linked an accurate descriptor?
1. Do you think there is value in shooting Cantrip now?
2. See my above question to Wheat. Can you make sense of what he is saying having been a ball-holder(teehee).
I already stated, that with the Dr. out, I am for it.
@rhand, I've seen only like 2 hammer roles and they were in specialties.
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Rhand, do you have multiple shots?
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Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
I don't know what it does, therefore I'm standing around holding it like an idiot.
Hunger did not say "If Generic is set on making it him or someone else I want it to be him. Even if he's not I still just want it to be him", that was something I wanted to post at the top of my post and something I myself am saying
**** curse
when are we going to go back to a site with code that isn't *****
I don't think we need to mass claim today. We have viable lynch candidates, and maybe still have a real information role hiding out there.
Mafia Stats
Kill shot: BB
Issue with my shooting? Please visit my helpdesk and help me learn to aim!
I think Cyan needs to use his toDay for sure.
Massclaim can wait I guess.
@Hunger: I am very wary about Wheat. I think Cantrip is town. So the best thing is not shooting Cantrip.
If Cyan is going to shoot toDay he should do it now as it will likely give us more info on where to go with the lynch.
@Rhand - You didn't answer my ball question, though I suppose Wheat already did. However, can you confirm that you don't know what the ball does?
Also, why are you giving Wheat and Cantrip passes?
I also have no knowledge of me claiming anything.
So here's who is alive:
1. Sir Karn
2. Killjoy*
3. Rhand
4. Generic
5. Wheat_Grinder
6. Cantripmancer*
7. Hunger
8. TK-421
9. LnGrrrR (Shockwave07*)
10. 7hawk77
11. Cyan*
From that pool, we can take out what I consider the definite townies.
That leaves us with this:
2. Killjoy*
4. Generic
6. Cantripmancer*
8. TK-421
9. LnGrrrR (Shockwave07*)
10. 7hawk77
That's still a lot of scummy people. Out of 11 I can only assuredly cross off 5 as town, and that includes myself. This game is rough.
In tiers, this is the order of how I'd like to run down this list (with lynches and/or vig shots):
Generic // 7hawk77
Killjoy // LnGrrrR (r. Shockwave07)
Cantripmancer // TK-421
Meaning that I'd be happy with Cyan vigging Hawk or Generic toDay, then we lynch the other.
Fine with me. As long as everyone agrees.
Unvote.
Vote: Hawk
Also, it feels like it's been a while since we got some meaningful content from you, Generic - I understand that it looks like you've lost interest in this game, but a list of your reads at least would be nice in case you do end up flipping town. Between the time that has passed since the last time you mentioned it, and the 3 games I'm in right now, I don't remember any of your reads toDay.
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Outdated Mafia Stats
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You think there are 5 scum and a serial killer in a 16 person game?
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Like, I for some reason I believe hawk and don't really want to lynch him. I will admit he makes a decent vig target if the majority want it since he has already claimed VT.
I also feel like Generic is town, but he also has the same thing going as hawk with a VT claim.
@Generic - I really don't like your argument here. You are saying you are fine with dying as long as we lynch hawk, but you were also saying the same thing about Rhand before his claim and it's looking pretty likely you were wrong there. If you are VT like you say your are, then following the same logic, maybe you are also wrong about hawk? Like using the same logic shouldn't we go after Shock right now because Voxx was town and he had Shock as his top scum read? Why is your read on hawk more valid than his on Shock, especially considering you were most likely wrong about your other sure read? I'm trying to gauge if you actually believe what you are saying. It feels like you are playing in your own world and not paying attention to anyone else, which frankly isn't very helpful. Like honestly, if you get vig'd right now and flip town, I'm not ever sure how much it will change my read on hawk because I don't know if you are coming from a team-player-town mindset or an OMGUS-town mindset. Both of which could be right or wrong, but one I have more faith in.
I think I might be getting to the point where the town slip of Killjoy isn't bearing as much weight as it used to so he's sort of in the middle for me. Like I don't think he has really done anything this game other than town slip, which feels genuine, but certainly could be forced.
LnG slot I think is my top lynch/vig choice, but there are a couple things holding me back and I was hoping to see LnG give an effort first.
Cantrip/TK I think are both town, but I guess there are a couple things to give me pause there as well, more with TK than Cantrip though.
I'm also not sold on Wheat like you seem to be. He hasn't done anything overly scummy, but has also claimed a typically scum role and is just kind of always there in my PoE piles. His play looks like it could come from scum trying to be town even if it isn't actually scummy play. But I'd rather worry about him on a later Day.
And then of course there is you. I think the interaction with Niv really bought you a lot of town points, but I also feel like you haven't done a good job of using your town cred to do much analysis which has been bothering me. It is a bit curious that once the vig talks started up you seem to be getting more involved. Still have a town read on you for that interaction, but would like to see more scumhunting.
And speaking of not using town cred...
@Cyan - I gather you are a strong player from the talk in this thread. You are also about as confirmed a townie as there is. Grab the reins and let's figure this thing out no?
We have a pretty good lead anyways so I don't think it matters. There are plenty questionable players that need to get dealt with.
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Why? If you are town, then you should want votes on you for analysis.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
I'm definitely in the same camp as Karn; there are too many people that I have varying degrees of suspicion toward. Like the only people that I am not suspicious of are WG and Hunger, and these two are so obviously town that saying you're not suspicious of them is like saying the sky is blue.
It's been a busy work week for me, plus an out of town friend is visting, but he's elsewhere tomorrow so I'll work on that wagon/vote count analysis for Antny and Fulcrum.
Mafia Stats
Kill shot: BB
Issue with my shooting? Please visit my helpdesk and help me learn to aim!
Maybe it's just me, but when you have like 10+ posts where you don't reply to people and get all worked up and end it with saying "**** you" or "I don't give a ****" I don't put a lot of faith into what you have to say because I read it as not coming for a sound analytic point of view, but from an OMGUS emotionally-invested I-want-to-be-right-so-bad-so-I-can-throw-it-in-your-face point of view. I don't really respond well to threats and emotional ploys, but instead prefer logic. You have a post saying why you find hawk scummy, which is good, but it's in the middle of a bunch of posts where you freak out and refuse to engage with people and answer questions.
Like, do you actually expect people to respond positively to and respect your reads when you continually say things like, "I don't give a ****," and "**** you," and "**** the logic?"
I think it might make wheat and cantrip an unaligned pair, which is what I am trying to figure out.
My ability is inherent, Cantrip's seems to have something to do with the ball.
Compare it to yourself and Cyan, although the item sorta is in reverse I guess? You get what I mean anyway, I hope.
@Generic - Sorry your life isn't going well. If you are just going to go through the motions and not really going to put in a lot of effort then it is what it is I guess and you probably do make sense as a vig target. I still think you are town though and would rather shoot someone that has a chance of being scum.
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Antny223 (9): Wheat_Grinder, Seppel, Hunger, Generic, Cyan, TK-421, Rhand, Shockwave, Hawk
Votes on the wagon that stand out: Shock, Hawk(I know that Hawk now tells us that his last vote was a 'gambit', but that isn't particularly relevant here)
People voting fulcrum before he got counterclaimed: Shockwave, Rhand, TK-421, Cyan, WG
People that did not vote either dead scum in this game:
Sir Karn
Killjoy
Cantripmancer
This ultimate conclusion comes as zero surprise to me, because Karn and Killjoy are 2 people that I've been suspicious of on and off allgame. I haven't even looked at interactions with Niv yet..I don't think I even need to at this point.
Considering hawk's 'gambit', before we go any further, I want to get one thing clarified:
@Cantrip, are you still sticking to your story that you should be dayvigged and that this will provide us information?
If this is the case, I should use my kill on CM. And I would like to see a wagon on Killjoy after that. I hated the way Killjoy acted toward the Antny wagon on Day 1, which I was reminded of while looking at the vote counts just now. And the way that KJ pushed me was also scummy. That reminds me of the other thing I want to analyze..my own wagon. Though WG was voting me on and off and I have a pretty strong townread on him, so.
I'm also unimpressed with Shockwave at this juncture. His vote on Antny was really unimpressive, and LnG's play since replacing in *really* has not inspired any confidence. Still, Shockwave was throwing off so many newb town tells early in the game, he's maybe 3rd/4th on my suspect list.
@Generic: Regardless of your alignment, you need to either shape up or do the right thing and request to be replaced.