DC3, you can say stuff like, "That's not a town mindset" all you want, but you don't know for sure until I flip town/scum. So if you lynch me and I flip town, does it suddenly become a "town" mindset? Your idea of what is and isn't town mindset isn't the end-all, be-all.
Firstly, this reads like you know I'm town, not that you think I'm Town pushing your wagon. Of course I don't know for sure - that's the whole point of the game - so how does that invalidate my argument in your mind?
And no, it's not caught for the wrong reasons. It's "this town is dumb and I can't convince this dumb town to stop being dumb". What is this "awesome case" on me? An RVS post that people don't like, and a "defense" of said RvS post that people don't like because I shouldn't have to be defending against this case because it's all meta garbage.
This is the caught for the wrong reasons mindset again. You're upset because you don't think that you should have had to defend your RVS posts to begin with. The RVS post isn't all "meta garbage" I checked your meta after the fact to make sure that you didn't always read like that in RVS. The non-RVS part of the case is the second half of #79 from me. Just because a lot of it followed after the RVS stuff, and you want to try to dismiss the RVS stuff, doesn't discount the rest of your play.
Which is funny because I am pretty sure there are people in this game who have seen me fila il in other games as town when I'm frustrated but no one is mentioning it. (Gen, you have seen it in Majora. And there was another game recent where I was mislynched nearly the same way, with Seppel being the only one smart enough to see the push. I bieve that was the game where I asked for more time and everyone kept saying my posts were "useless".)
This is why I'm finding it hard to believe you. You seem to know that I'm Town (or are at least posting as though you're confident enough in a town read of me to take it for granted when interacting with me) and you've noticed that Generic has seen you play like this before and wasn't speaking up for you - yet you said he seemed town in your reads. I'm pushing your wagon hard for reasons you clearly think are bad. You think you're playing in a way that Generic should recognize and isn't speaking up about it... and yet you don't seem suspicious of either of us. And you indicate that there are other people who have seen you play like this before but I haven't seen you pursue your suspicions on those people.
Re: who is scum, are you sure you are actually reading my posts DC3? I just said I have been crap at reading people lately, and I also said I have trouble reading while getting attacked. If I had to guess, it would be Fulcrum, Niv and probably someone I currently see as townie. It is obvious that scum is on me because a) I know I am town and B) a lot of people are expressing willingness to lynch. Considering that the odds of everyone distrusting me being only town is slim to none, it's pretty easy to state that there are scum on my wagon. It's obviously much harder to figure out which ones.
Okay, but my point isn't that I'm expecting you to have solved the game. Being crap at reading people lately and having trouble while getting attacked have to do with accuracy of reads but they don't have to do with behavior/suspicion. You had a Town or undecided read on everyone except for fulcrum but weren't doing anything to try to figure it out which, regardless of your opinions of your ability to do so or your frustrations with taking pressure, I'd think you'd be doing because you'd naturally be suspicious of those people for either pushing something you were convinced had no merit or for supporting your case while being familiar with your play. Those are logical progressions to investigate if you think there are scum on your wagon and yet you haven't pursued those lines, more mentioning it after the fact about Generic in your defense to me.
------------------------------
@Gentrip - What do you think of Niv?
I like Kosa this game - just got out of two with him where he was neutral and he has a different approach this game... much more focused with his questions, much more invested in scum hunting.
I still have unanswered questions to HookerP, fulcrum, and 6Cs at the end of #119.
Normally, I try not to quote things out of context, but damn if this doesn't like something a pissed off scum would say to a scummate who's going down.
Meanwhile, you ignored questions from both myself and DCIII.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
DC3, you are wrong. Obviously you have your head stuck up somewhere and refuse to actually READ what I am saying. I THINK you are town, therefore I'm addressing you as if you were town. How do you expect me to reply to you? Should I add a (unless you are scum) to every statement? You are being asinine.
Obviously, if you are scum then you already know what I will flip. But it seems pretty damn stupid to put that disclaimer on every argument I make.
Re: Generic, he doesn't have to defend me, but for someone harping on how Im not reading, you'll notice that he said that my rant sounded honest. And he has turned his attention away from me too, which is another subtle indicator.
Just because a person pushes me doesn't mean he or she is scum. You and Generic haven't read scummy to me. Not sure what else to say.
You say I am not pushing my scum reads, but I have commented on Fulfrum's post and his lack of doing really anything regarding interactions. I have also commented on Niv's post towards me. I think it's a bit unrealistic to expect me to interact with every person, when half the game has been lurkers or semi-lurkers.
MissLynch, do you really think Fulcrum has done that much questioning, or interacting? Go back through when I made that comment, and apart from interacting with me and throwing reads out there, what else has Fulcrum done? Hooker may be lurking, but Fulcrum is active lurking, posting just to post.
Re: RTR, it's because Karn was the one bussing instead of you Cantrip
Re: Fulcrum/Niv scumminess, for Fulcrum, I just see busyness. I don't see actual interactions; no arguments, no fighting, no going out on a limb, just a few "X is town, Y is scum" statements with no reasons to them so she can go back on them later. Niv jumped on me with what I felt like were weak reasons, and then when he is attacked in turn, he discredits the attackers instead of the arguments. (And yes, I know I did somewhat the same when calling the town idiots, but that was more due to frustration at no one looking at anyone else than people looking at me.)
I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
@HP - What do you mean by "still hasn't read anything really" - is that in relation to yourself or KoolKoal? What are your reasons for the KoolKoal suspicion?
Missed this.
I haven't read.
KoolKoal suspicion is made of pixie dust and unicorn tears.
Though I doubt that SNL is scum based on his play in Llamas with Hats compared to this game.
What specifically are you referring to?
On day 1 of llamas with hats, SNL imploded and made it blatantly obvious that he was mafia. He has not imploded in this game, and I do not think that he would be able to change his scum game so quickly, so I think that he is town in this game.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I'm a compulsive liar no matter what team I play on, but I'm trying to get better about it."
On day 1 of llamas with hats, SNL imploded and made it blatantly obvious that he was mafia. He has not imploded in this game, and I do not think that he would be able to change his scum game so quickly, so I think that he is town in this game.
Yeah, I don't think anyone has really imploded yet.
@SNL I am a terrible player... mostly cause I have trouble lying
@LnGrrrR: I didn't assume he was making something up, I assumed it meant nothing. I didn't think that it might mean something. he is right, it was my fault for not putting 2 + 2 together and asking what it meant. but on the flip side, like I said, rather than point out that it meant something, people are assuming I'm trying to be misleading/smearing someone. also, you say I just attack the attackers on me. SNL did a preemptive OMGUS (I'm pointing out my suspicions on them, and they vote me for it), I've discussed Kosa's vote. and fulcrum pretty much voted me because they find my writing style scummy. that being said, you've spent more time skirting the case and just trying to openly discredit it. in that time you probably could have spent the time typing up a response, but at this point you'd rather make me try to reword it, because you know you cant respond to it.
Also, just gonna throw this out there: there's a difference between someone telling me "your writing style is scummy" and me responding "that's my writing style" than me saying "you're flailing like caught scum" and you saying "I flail like caught scum as town too".
also, you didn't have fulcrum in your TS list, and then as a result they were out of sight, out of mind, and I didn't even notice they were missing from it, and just took the list as complete. I didn't intentionally misrep that. I just went with what you posted in your list, nothing more, nothing less.
DCIII also makes another well thought out post, and you just throw it down again. at this point I don't care to go back, waste my time on redoing the case on you. you're scum.
----------
@fulcrum: rather than respond to anything I posted directed at you, you'd rather take something I posted, out of context, while prefacing that it was out of context. in fact, the comment here feels almost like something you want to look back on, and when LnGrrrR flips scum, you'll point to that and go, well, "look here, I said this, Niv's obviously scum with LnGrrrR" yah. no. your scum, with LnGrrrR. that post is so bad it makes bloody skin crawl.
----------
@Selsnya: I responded to your vote on me, and you proceed to ignore my post completely. you still don't deal with any of the pressure on you. you just made 2 posts, and said nothing, while continuing to ignore what's being pushed on you.
----------
@Hans: that is one of the worst meta argument's I've ever seen. "SNL didn't implode completely under minor pressure, so, they;re town" yah, that's the worst reason I've ever heard to call someone town. that and they are handling the pressure pretty poorly, not quite an implosion, but pretty poorly. this really doesn't incriminate you at all imo, but it's still pretty awful.
---------
at this point I'm fully willing to push a wagon on LnGrrrR, SNL, or fulcrum. it doesn't matter what order we lynch them, when they're all scum.
There is something in the tone of LnG's frustration that reads town to me. It's gut, but I just don't see him faking it so easily. I have also seen him meltdown under pressure, although that was a long time ago (WWE).
On day 1 of llamas with hats, SNL imploded and made it blatantly obvious that he was mafia. He has not imploded in this game, and I do not think that he would be able to change his scum game so quickly, so I think that he is town in this game.
Who's to say he couldn't have learned some lessons from that game and improved?
I think everyone arguing the whole "cccccc can be a scum doublevoter" is pushing a non-existant issue and is possible scum. It's clear he's just a terrible player.
There is something I strongly dislike about this post. No one was pushing c808 as a scum doublevoter. This is textbook deflection. "Hey don't pay attention to me, focus on those guys over there doing that obvscum thing!" The problem for SNL here is that he was pointing at a brick wall.
@SNL: that is one of the strangest T/S lists I've ever read. it's not even organized from town to scum, but from voting me to people ignoring you to 2 people you add at the end cause god knows why #other. Cantrip puts it all laid out really well, but really, this just reaffirms my vote on you. that and you're still voting me, for pressuring you on something, you still haven't adequately responded to that pressure, I am not the only one pressuring you, but for whatever reason, I'm 100% scum, but gentrip is 70% town. I also responded to you, you refused to respond, twice, you are ignoring my vote on you, and just telling people as a group that in this game "X" I did something similar. A valid meta argument is "I do action X and post like Y in every game I play" not "I did action X once" seriously, the only defense you can muster is WIFOM meta garbage an snarky responses. the fact that that's all you can come up with however goes past WIFOM and is just awful.
-----------
@Hooker: I skimmed over a couple of the games on your MS wiki really quick (couldn't even tell you which ones I did), and came to the conclusion you just post like this, but you do post content at times. like in this game, where you have made a couple points, validity or accuracy aside, are at least something. that and a day one lurker lynch doesn't really do much, since interaction-y analysis is probably the best thing you gain from the D1 lynch. so, while I'm not a fan of your play style, I'm willing to accept it, and just go with it going forward.
though, game related: if you would be so kind, could you take some kind of stand on SNL? you call them bait, which I can only assume means that you think they're just bad town. anything specific that leads you to this belief over him being scum, and why did you feel the need to add the negative qualifier in the second post, effectively discrediting your own read? do you really have that little faith in your read atm?
--------
@Cantrip: when I put "they" there, I was simply referring the person that was left out of the list. They was simply a singular pronoun. kind like how it functions in the contraction "they're". ie: Where's Niv? they're over there. it's not referring to more than one person if that's what you were thinking.
also, you're talking about getting caught with this silver rage thing-y. when you did it, looking back, do you think you did it as scum. would you have done something similar as town? I still thing this tell is a bunch of WIFOM baloney. when you got caught doing it, did you actually think it was something you should have been caught over?
@Mod - will you please also include who isn't voting during your vote counts? It'll make it easier to see.
Unvote
I believe LnGr's #140. The indignation toward me at the beginning feels genuine and his focus on fulcrum seems sincere. He hasn't backed down from his stance on her although he took pressure for the origin of the vote and he doesn't seem to be concerned with or making effort to justify that his other top scum read (Niv) also suspects fulcrum. I'd expect scum to be more mindful of that perception. Also, I've re-read and I'm pretty sure I was being dense about something earlier. I don't agree about fulcrum, though.
LnGr - I'll have overall thoughts on the game to share soon, and I'll answer your question then.
------------------------------------------------
@Niv - In #83 you told 6Cs that you liked his vote on me while saying that I'm 97% likely to be town in the same post. Why did you like the vote from 6Cs there if you thought I was 97% likely to be Town? Your verbiage to 6Cs was that fulcrum's follow up is "much more" suspicious, indicating that my posting was also suspicious. Please explain. Was I 3% suspicious?
@SNL - You say that my angles are wrong and fulcrum is almost as Town as the double voter - but fulcrum has /barned a lot of what I've said - so what's your thought process?
@Cantrip - Need a response to the above before answering you, but my thoughts previously were more in line with HP's. More to come on this after his response.
@Generic - In #93 why were you concerned about it being a pile on LnGr after expressing concern about his play?
Simply beacuse ccccccc's vote just felt more like wrong town to me. like, I think you're town, DCIII, but I thought his mindset still was a town one when he voted you.
I meant much more than your post, which I felt was a town post. probably should have used different words there, but no, I did not think the post ccccccc voted you for was a scum post in the least. I still think the initial case on LnGrrrR was weak, and that it's the interactions that followed that made LnGrrrR scum in my books, but it was not a scummy case, it was a flimsy one, at the time. that's really all I was trying to get across. so, no, I did not find you scummy for that, at all, and probally should have implied that "more" meant more than like nothing. my bad
It's 1AM, I hope that was coherent, I;m going to bed.
@Generic - I do have a point to these questions and I'll give my thoughts in full once they're answered - one more for you. If you were looking to see if people would mimic you and reduce pressure on LnGr from #93, then what did you think of fulcrum's #110 and why didn't you give thoughts or follow up on it or after I asked her about the timing of moving her vote? (Aside: fulcrum, I'd still like an answer to that one).
I will barn the /bait question towards HookerPunch. Seems like an awkward way to phrase a comment.
SNL, give us something to work with here. I mean, explanations for your reads, whether it is gut, meta or whatever.
PS, I will be in NY the next three days vacationing. Won't quite be V/LA but I probably won't be as verbose as usual. When I get a chance, I will look over Fulcrum's posts, especially the ones Cantrip mentioned.
PPS, I hate that the English language doesn't have an indeterminate gender pronoun. "It" doesn't work and he/she sucks. "They" is used in normal conversation but it doesn't really work for purposes shown in this thread.
@SNL - You say that my angles are wrong and fulcrum is almost as Town as the double voter - but fulcrum has /barned a lot of what I've said - so what's your thought process?
I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
Still waiting on Fulcrum showing up and answering my question.
/barn everyone asking for more info on SNL's list. I had resolved to give him a pass until later in the game because it's impossible for him to look townie, but this is too much inconsistency to ignore.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
I see where you guys are coming from Re: SNL. I just had him as town for the moment because I didn't see any similarities between his scum game in Llamas with hats.
@Dkings- how do you feel about Kosa?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I'm a compulsive liar no matter what team I play on, but I'm trying to get better about it."
Fair response, Niv. I was gonna vote you if you didn't respond satisfactory.
As to the modifier, I simply am looking at a macro view--I've had low success with day one lynches here. Facts are facts, it isn't meant to discredit my point(that I think SNL is town, if bad--from my third-hand meta skills he seems to have a soulbound cloak of scumminess attached to his person, which means I look at him with mild bemusement and caution).
couple of the post today made this question just come to mind.
If SNL: has a "soulbound cloak of scummieness" how does one go about reading them, in your minds? is it possible to acquire accurate reads through that. if they act like town, are they then scum?
can we also stop with the one game meta bull*****. meta is something built up over multiple games, not "oh, look, one game where he was scum".
and even that aside, that list is just so wonky, I'm pretty sure it shines through this metaphorical cloak.
I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
care to explain to me exactly why over thinking a RVS post is a tell? something I don't know? all I see is someone trying to be witty.
the fact that there's already been a suggested soft claim on page on is a little odd as well. this one in particular feels as though it would be nothing but a waste of time, until told otherwise, and unless Hans wants to tell me otherwise I'm going to go ahead and not support this waste of time.
However I am willing to UnVote, Vote fulcrum. while the still the first page, that was obviously not an RVS post, and a shameless barn of a flimsy post, followed up by randomly declaring people town as well. if we're gonna go somewhere on page one, this IMO is a pretty good place to start.
In Niv’s first major post, he 1.assumes that LnGrrR was trying to be witty and the RVS post says nothing about his alignment, 2.assumes that hans’ softclaim has no purpose and is a waste of time, and 3.Assumes that my declaring hans and DCIII town was “random.” The only hint of curiosity he shows is in a question to DCIII that also serves to dismiss DC’s point of view.
CCC's 32 & 33 strike me really odd. that post 33 is just really sure, and I don't know what to think of it yet. I'm not sure if your idiot town, or idiot scum, but I know one thing....
his #35 is also pretty much a waste of time, It pretty much accomplished nothing. @CCC: could you actually do me a favor, and explain your thought process in these few posts, like how you thought they were even remotely useful?
Snip
Are you TRYING to die?
snip
Here we have insults instead of any curiosity about C6’s statements.
@DCIII: I think you and I just differ on theory here with regards to RVS. I personally believe that the interactions are a place to look, but never something like a first post like that. you can just argue in a circle forever #WIFOM. there is no "defense" to what you accused him of that can't be argued in a circle afterwards, and can't be proven since it's outside the game knowledge. for all we know, he could have said he opened the thread and then had to go take a dump. (he didn't, but it's an example). as to the enthusiasm bit, maybe it was forced, but in a game (referring to mafia as a whole) like this, 90% of RVS posts are forced, it's just how much detail goes into it. sorry, not a tell. /end theory.
Here we have a dismissal of RVS based in an assumption that DCIII believes a different theory, instead of say being scum.
cool, another shameless barn, with 100% no content. I still like my vote.
A bit ignoring my question to LnGrrrR and criticism of Niv’s continuous assumptions, to focus solely on what Niv perceived to be the scummy part of my post. Again, no actual questions to figure out what I’m thinking.
.
@HookerPunch: your 56, nothing at all else to add? nothing? are you useless?
And it wraps up a slur against Hooker Punch instead of specific push for anything.
The trend continues in post 83, where Niv ignores me telling him exactly what’s he’s doing wrong in order to attack for adding no content (an accusation which wasn’t actually true). Instead of asking me to post my reasons, he doubtcasts with the phrase “I'm curious what you've got to hide.” This is clearly not true, because if he was actually curious, he would ask me a question. He goes on to ask repeat the usefulness question to C6 (even though I have trouble thinking of a more useless question), call Cantrip’s tell on Nat “not a tell,” reverse his position on LnGrrrR based on an unelaborated “collapse,” assume I haven’t thought for myself (even though there is clear evidence to the contrary), and push Natirasha for lurking without asking her for anything.
I'll probably continue this tomorrow. It should be pretty clear where I'm going with this.
I guess I forgot to orange my UnVote, Vote SelesnyaNewLife. a couple pages back. lets fix that.
-------------
@fulcrum: my posting style has not changed greatly in 8 years, you telling me to stop insulting people, equating badness to scummieness, and voting me in large part isn't going to either change me, or make me scum.
a lot of my questions are implied, or so I think. but I have an 8 year history again of posting a lot of things that are just my thoughts put to page. I don't keep notes, at all, and often look back to my old posts instead. people are free to respond to them, but they don't really have to, unless of course they want to change my mind. my thoughts are there for people to see, and then react to. you're attacking me for lack of curiosity, where not only is every post I make a wall full of content, multiple questions, and lots of thought that can be responded to. you saying my posts lack curiosity is so beyond wrong I really don't even know how you're trying to misrepresent me like that. no one that's reading the thread at all is going to go with that line of thinking, and you making this case proves you're reading the thread, and either you're just beyond dense, or misrepresenting me. which is it?
in this game, when someone says something, start discussion with them. just because they (any situation, not just with me) don't pose something explicitly as a question. Also, maybe if you'd explain yourself when someone call you out. I don't need to ask you something to have a discussion. when you talk with someone in, you know, person, everything that you say doesn't end in a question. like, you say, instead of asking questions, I "doubtcast". cool, or, you could respond to me without a specific question. like, you continue to push me more for my terminology than anything else.
I get that you don't like my posting style, that I'm "insulting", that I post like I;m actually typing conversational sentences instead of just asking questions. I've linked this game to you like 3 pages ago, and you obviously didn't even skim over anything. I can find more if you;d like, I've been around here long enough that i can find more. my alignment in any game I do find you is going to be irrelevant. you're attacking me for my posting style. I'm a unique player I'd think, and you're just going to have to deal with it. stop trying to say I'm not curious about the game, that I'm not trying to participate, that I'm not asking questions. this is how I bloody play.
and it's 1:20 in the morning, and I just typed all that up, and you're still scum, with SNL, and LnGrrrR. you didn't even bother to skim that game I linked, last time I linked it, or ask for more links, and your still attacking my play style. this is done.
the only actual point you made against me in that whole case that doesn't just feel like you attacking my play style is the point in the middle with regards to DCIII - LnGrrrR interactions. DCIII's initial case was wrong. LnGrrrR's reactions to it, incriminated him. he acted like he was "caught, but for the wrong reasons" the whole time. I agree. the initial case was not a good case, but he got caught in his response. the first case weak, and it still is. I'm not the only person that views RVS differently, I've explained my opinion on it, people disagree, we move on. DCIII's initial case came from a town mindset, but it was wrong, but it still caught scum.
oh, and you call me out for this statement: "Naked votes provoke reactions, shameless naked barns are scum tells." I'll stand by that statement in this game, and the next game, and the next one.
It's 1:30AM, I'm tired and rambling. your case is off base, you refuse to accept my posting style for what it is, and you clearly misrepresenting what I am doing to boot. I am umpteen questions to people, posting thoughts that can be interacted with. people seem to think I can't be discussed with, and my thoughts, when not posed as a question, are like set in stone. but all I see is you, as scum, trying to push my play style for whatever reason, probably because you think you can get people to buy it. well, I'm not buying it.
I'm Voting SNL atm, but understand that I am more than willing to vote any of the three scum in this game, as has been said prior, so conciser my vote on you as well.
Niv - you say my initial case was wrong - but by that you just mean the vote based on RVS play, which I thought was a tell. So how was that wrong? The full case and more solidified read came later after LnGr's reactions and subsequent play that included RVS as part of it - so if you think that I caught scum with that case, then why do you think that the initial reasoning was wrong? Isn't it more likely that what I was seeing in RVS was accurate if you believe that I caught scum in LnGr? Also, you specify that my initial reasoning for my vote of LnGr, though wrong, came from a town mindset. But how does it come from a town mindset if it's wrong? The thing that doesn't add up is that you're basically dismissing RVS analysis while also saying that a push that stemmed from RVS analysis resulted in caught scum.
You didn't think that RVS was a tell and that my reasoning for pushing it was bad
You thought that the later reactions proved that he was scum
You're still focused on talking about why the RVS wasn't a tell and why that push was incorrect when you think it ended up catching scum.
I feel like the more common and logical response there would be to think that maybe you were wrong and that it was a tell because you'd be reconsidering LnGr's mindset in initially posting if you now think he's scum. It doesn't seem natural to me that you're still focused on arguing that my initial reason for voting was "wrong," having said so several times, when you believe that the result found scum. It seems more designed to defend your initial stance.
@HP - Who is 3P? If you were planning on voting Niv before his previous response and changed your mind, why do you think the wagon is bad now? He had instigated previously.
I don't have a strong opinion of Kosa yet, but he's reminding me of Pleasantville and Drury Lane Kosa. He's been very confident and aggressive in this game. He appears to usually be more calm and careful when he's not town.
I'm Voting SNL atm, but understand that I am more than willing to vote any of the three scum in this game, as has been said prior, so conciser my vote on you as well.
Which of your three scum reads are you most confident on? I don't agree with you on LnGrrrR based on his recent posts.
This is the second time in a row (in between huge gaps of inactivity, I might add) that you've ignored everything going on in thread, including two questions pointed directly at you, only to focus on Niv with a bunch points, most of which don't actually make him scum, the rest of which aren't real points. You also ignored Niv's response to your awful "I don't normally quote out of context, but..." so you could continue pressuring him as if you'd done nothing wrong.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
DC's second question has an obvious answer: Niv needed pressure and LnGrrrR already had it. I went where my vote was useful I'm going into detail on the first one now.
Ugh, what was your question? I remember it being kind of pointless.
the wording “It's often a good play for scum to only nod at the popular wagon while pushing another,” feels like a cop out
Explain in more depth please.
I've noticed a pattern with scum where they outline what scum players should do in a situation more than they actually analyze the statement, which matches your wording here. If you want, I can link you to a game where I caught scum on this and was ignored.
Let's see, SNL also had a question for me. SNL: Why no follow up?
But fulcrum, the momentum on LnGr was just building - shifting your vote there contributes toward diffusing it. It isn't normal for someone to move off of a wagon that's gaining momentum when they support said wagon. Why did you need to move your vote to Niv to add pressure when you could have just pressured? Is your read on LnGr now the same as it was?
Ugh. Niv, I'm not metaing you. I don't have the time to get a proper understanding of your play. Deal with it.
You do understand that you linking that game was part of the problem? You assumed my issue with you was entirely a playstyle one before I had even written a case.
The other issue is naturally your push against LnGrrrR. You don't like that I quoted it out of context? Then let me quote it in context.
@LnGrrrR: if you actually think the entirety of the case on you was because of the RVS bull*****, you clearly didn't read the case at all. your 114 is honestly one of the worst posts I've ever seen. defeatism, calling the town idiots, threating the town, and calling your own lynch an easy lynch. if it looks like a fish and tastes like a fish, it probably is a fish. You find DCIII town, but you're unwilling to even read or properly respond to his case on you, by calling him, and anyone else who is going with it an idiot. classic. your scumlist also contains no scum, as was pointed out by DCIII as well. hmmmmmmmm you're totally helping the town win this game......... your continued defeatist attitude is really not helping your case in my mind.
Compare the last two sentences. There's "you're totally helping the town win this game" which implies absolute belief that LnGrrrR is scum, but lacks the self-congratulatory tone a townie should have. Then the next sentence is the polar opposite, advising LnGrrrR to defend himself. The attitudes don't jive.
the wording “It's often a good play for scum to only nod at the popular wagon while pushing another,” feels like a cop out
Explain in more depth please.
I've noticed a pattern with scum where they outline what scum players should do in a situation more than they actually analyze the statement, which matches your wording here. If you want, I can link you to a game where I caught scum on this and was ignored.
1st, how does that explanation = "a cop out"
2nd, being able to show me one time it worked does not establish a pattern.
3rd, that isn't even what I did. I said what DCIII did and explained why its a possible scum move. Exactly the opposite of what you accuse me of, in fact.
An argument for what scum DC should have done, would have been a bad argument for his towniness, actually, so your reasoning makes even less sense.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
Mod Announcement: Just want to let everyone know I will be away the rest of today and all of Friday. There'll be an updated Votecount + Prod checks Saturday morning/early afternoon.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
EDH UUU Azami, Lady of Scrolls RRR Diaochan, Artful Beauty UR(U/R) Tibor, Lumia, & Melek (WIP)
I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
i know I'm snarky and enigmatic. I play this game because I like the specific combination of behavioral analysis+mechanical knowledge it entails, there is a lot of room to work my brain muscles while entertaining people. Every game is a performance, so to speak. It's fascinating and very exciting.
As to your questions. Since my return to mafia in April of last year, I have been lynched on day one exactly once. You got to understand beyond my erratic and know-nothing nature, I do actually have a plan and game I play. When I say i don't read, well, I don't read the words. I find words to be rather unimportant to the game we call mafia--emotional foretelling, timing cues, and understanding strategic motivations are all more important than the words people speak.
I mispoke on my instigated comment--I meant, Niv's been an instigator and in a pro-town fashion. I'm pretty sure fulcrum is town in his attack, but it's fundamentally flawed in the way pbpas usually are--there is a reason pbpas went out of style at mafiascum.
Generic I miss your presence. Is Cantripomandude holding back your vanity or what?
Vote: KoolKoal
Why? That's for me to know and you to tease out of me.
No you're not: you're just a lot of fluff. Will you start producing relevant content anytime soon or will that only come after you're on the verge of being lynched?
If you're town, stop being a distraction and actually do something other than naked votes and one-liners.
@DCIII: yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. you made a case, with town intentions. you obviously believed your case. I felt it was wrong, I still feel like it was wrong. but that aside, LnGrrrR's handling of it was awful. it was an awful initial case, I still don't think that there was anything to be seen with your initial case, but not all cases are good, and not all bad cases are done by scum. it was a bad case, but his handling of it was awful. I've restated this more than enough times now, but yes, a bad case, caught scum in my opinion. it'll happen again. think of it like he was just applied pressure, and he collapsed like a flan in a cupboard.
-------
@dkings: I'm pretty much equally sure of all of my reads, but I think the SNL mess is the most blatantly scummy.
-------
@koal: you're one to talk about huge gaps of inactivity.
-------
@fulcrum: so, wait, you want to have us meta you, to verify your accuracy, but you're unwilling to spend 5 minutes or less skimming that game I linked, and will continue to push a case based largely on my vocabulary, posting style, and personality. all I did was link my posts in that game, that's all you need to read. heck, you don't even need to look at my alignment in that game, or anyone else's alignment. you don't like the way I post. I'm not changing the way I post. clearly we're at an impasse here.
also, "hmmmmmmmm you're totally helping the town win this game........." if an over exaggerated hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm and a .................. don't imply sarcasm on the Internet, I guess nothing does. I guess I needed more air quotes. and you attack my posting style again.
you made a case based almost entirely based on my posting style, I try to prove to you that "that's how I post" and you're like "Oh, I can't be bothered to figure out how you actually post, too much effort" yah, blow me. if you're gonna make a case like that, you better be prepared to spend 5 minutes figuring out if the case can stick instead of spending the, probably about an hour, making a case. don't ***** to me about time, you obviously have enough to make this case, so, why don't you put aside some time to verify it.
so, everything I've already found you scummy for, we get to add to it you're a gigantic bloody hypocrite. yah, I think you're done here.
---------
@kosa: this game aside, this new software is like the devil. that being said, I'm going to assume you've read my response to your vote on me a couple pages back, but you'd rather call people drunk for disagreeing with you than retype what you've lost? like, I've lost essays before too, but I don't normally go ahead and act like I posted what I lost, and move on, unless of course you're not planning on actually responding back to me, then I still don't get where this is going. however if you're just going to attack anyone that disagrees with you, I'm pretty sure you're not going to be capable of even talking to at this point.
@koal: you're one to talk about huge gaps of inactivity.
Fair. I've actually been around enough to post more, but I have trouble getting strong enough reads to be worth sharing Day 1. I'd be posting more if people interacted with me more, but thus far its only been HP with nothing for me to respond to.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
And I hate to do this Day 1, but an old friend needed a favor from me last minute, so I'm going to be counselling at a summer camp mon-fri next week. +I have 2 weddings to attend this weekend, but should have plenty of time to post on the 8th. So if you have anything you want to throw at me, you've been warned.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
I agree with this. Niv is one of my strongest town reads.
You're drunk. What makes Niv town to you?
Niv has probably been the most active player in the game in terms of asking questions and applying pressure to more than just 1-2 people. He is clearly trying to get a handle on everyone and seems very town to me. Hell, just look at 197, he's engaging everyone and isn't backing down from questions or attacks.
Firstly, this reads like you know I'm town, not that you think I'm Town pushing your wagon. Of course I don't know for sure - that's the whole point of the game - so how does that invalidate my argument in your mind?
This is the caught for the wrong reasons mindset again. You're upset because you don't think that you should have had to defend your RVS posts to begin with. The RVS post isn't all "meta garbage" I checked your meta after the fact to make sure that you didn't always read like that in RVS. The non-RVS part of the case is the second half of #79 from me. Just because a lot of it followed after the RVS stuff, and you want to try to dismiss the RVS stuff, doesn't discount the rest of your play.
This is why I'm finding it hard to believe you. You seem to know that I'm Town (or are at least posting as though you're confident enough in a town read of me to take it for granted when interacting with me) and you've noticed that Generic has seen you play like this before and wasn't speaking up for you - yet you said he seemed town in your reads. I'm pushing your wagon hard for reasons you clearly think are bad. You think you're playing in a way that Generic should recognize and isn't speaking up about it... and yet you don't seem suspicious of either of us. And you indicate that there are other people who have seen you play like this before but I haven't seen you pursue your suspicions on those people.
Okay, but my point isn't that I'm expecting you to have solved the game. Being crap at reading people lately and having trouble while getting attacked have to do with accuracy of reads but they don't have to do with behavior/suspicion. You had a Town or undecided read on everyone except for fulcrum but weren't doing anything to try to figure it out which, regardless of your opinions of your ability to do so or your frustrations with taking pressure, I'd think you'd be doing because you'd naturally be suspicious of those people for either pushing something you were convinced had no merit or for supporting your case while being familiar with your play. Those are logical progressions to investigate if you think there are scum on your wagon and yet you haven't pursued those lines, more mentioning it after the fact about Generic in your defense to me.
------------------------------
@Gentrip - What do you think of Niv?
I like Kosa this game - just got out of two with him where he was neutral and he has a different approach this game... much more focused with his questions, much more invested in scum hunting.
I still have unanswered questions to HookerP, fulcrum, and 6Cs at the end of #119.
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
Obviously, if you are scum then you already know what I will flip. But it seems pretty damn stupid to put that disclaimer on every argument I make.
Re: Generic, he doesn't have to defend me, but for someone harping on how Im not reading, you'll notice that he said that my rant sounded honest. And he has turned his attention away from me too, which is another subtle indicator.
Just because a person pushes me doesn't mean he or she is scum. You and Generic haven't read scummy to me. Not sure what else to say.
You say I am not pushing my scum reads, but I have commented on Fulfrum's post and his lack of doing really anything regarding interactions. I have also commented on Niv's post towards me. I think it's a bit unrealistic to expect me to interact with every person, when half the game has been lurkers or semi-lurkers.
MissLynch, do you really think Fulcrum has done that much questioning, or interacting? Go back through when I made that comment, and apart from interacting with me and throwing reads out there, what else has Fulcrum done? Hooker may be lurking, but Fulcrum is active lurking, posting just to post.
Re: RTR, it's because Karn was the one bussing instead of you Cantrip
Re: Fulcrum/Niv scumminess, for Fulcrum, I just see busyness. I don't see actual interactions; no arguments, no fighting, no going out on a limb, just a few "X is town, Y is scum" statements with no reasons to them so she can go back on them later. Niv jumped on me with what I felt like were weak reasons, and then when he is attacked in turn, he discredits the attackers instead of the arguments. (And yes, I know I did somewhat the same when calling the town idiots, but that was more due to frustration at no one looking at anyone else than people looking at me.)
Dc3, why did you ask what Generic thought of Niv?
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
SelesnyaNewLife and hansanator will be pre-prodded at 22:00 EDT if they have not posted today.
UUU Azami, Lady of Scrolls
RRR Diaochan, Artful Beauty
UR(U/R) Tibor, Lumia, & Melek (WIP)
Mafia Stats
Missed this.
I haven't read.
KoolKoal suspicion is made of pixie dust and unicorn tears.
Either way, we're all gonna burn
On day 1 of llamas with hats, SNL imploded and made it blatantly obvious that he was mafia. He has not imploded in this game, and I do not think that he would be able to change his scum game so quickly, so I think that he is town in this game.
Previous Mafia Experience:
Mafia aligned: 2/0 -100%
Town aligned: 4/3 - 57%
Yeah, I don't think anyone has really imploded yet.
@SNL I am a terrible player... mostly cause I have trouble lying
CHECK OUT MY TRIBAL CUSTOM SET KREVAN
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/creativity/custom-card-creation/custom-set-creation-and/530273-krevan-the-first-set-in-a-tribal-block
---------------
@LnGrrrR: I didn't assume he was making something up, I assumed it meant nothing. I didn't think that it might mean something. he is right, it was my fault for not putting 2 + 2 together and asking what it meant. but on the flip side, like I said, rather than point out that it meant something, people are assuming I'm trying to be misleading/smearing someone. also, you say I just attack the attackers on me. SNL did a preemptive OMGUS (I'm pointing out my suspicions on them, and they vote me for it), I've discussed Kosa's vote. and fulcrum pretty much voted me because they find my writing style scummy. that being said, you've spent more time skirting the case and just trying to openly discredit it. in that time you probably could have spent the time typing up a response, but at this point you'd rather make me try to reword it, because you know you cant respond to it.
Also, just gonna throw this out there: there's a difference between someone telling me "your writing style is scummy" and me responding "that's my writing style" than me saying "you're flailing like caught scum" and you saying "I flail like caught scum as town too".
also, you didn't have fulcrum in your TS list, and then as a result they were out of sight, out of mind, and I didn't even notice they were missing from it, and just took the list as complete. I didn't intentionally misrep that. I just went with what you posted in your list, nothing more, nothing less.
DCIII also makes another well thought out post, and you just throw it down again. at this point I don't care to go back, waste my time on redoing the case on you. you're scum.
----------
@fulcrum: rather than respond to anything I posted directed at you, you'd rather take something I posted, out of context, while prefacing that it was out of context. in fact, the comment here feels almost like something you want to look back on, and when LnGrrrR flips scum, you'll point to that and go, well, "look here, I said this, Niv's obviously scum with LnGrrrR" yah. no. your scum, with LnGrrrR. that post is so bad it makes bloody skin crawl.
----------
@Selsnya: I responded to your vote on me, and you proceed to ignore my post completely. you still don't deal with any of the pressure on you. you just made 2 posts, and said nothing, while continuing to ignore what's being pushed on you.
----------
@Hans: that is one of the worst meta argument's I've ever seen. "SNL didn't implode completely under minor pressure, so, they;re town" yah, that's the worst reason I've ever heard to call someone town. that and they are handling the pressure pretty poorly, not quite an implosion, but pretty poorly. this really doesn't incriminate you at all imo, but it's still pretty awful.
---------
at this point I'm fully willing to push a wagon on LnGrrrR, SNL, or fulcrum. it doesn't matter what order we lynch them, when they're all scum.
Millionaires, I hear it's good Music (Disclaimer: lyrics not PG-13) Thanks, CC
In what world are self meta statements like this acceptable in any way, shape, or form.
Still willing to vote any of the three I mentioned in the my previous post, but dear lord, UnVote, Vote SelesnyaNewLife.
Millionaires, I hear it's good Music (Disclaimer: lyrics not PG-13) Thanks, CC
Have had a very busy few days, should be able to post content this afternoon.
**** like this drives me nuts. If it wasn't for Deus Ex, I'd be voting you right now.
Who's to say he couldn't have learned some lessons from that game and improved?
On that subject,
There is something I strongly dislike about this post. No one was pushing c808 as a scum doublevoter. This is textbook deflection. "Hey don't pay attention to me, focus on those guys over there doing that obvscum thing!" The problem for SNL here is that he was pointing at a brick wall.
The self-meta in 149 is also bad.
Unvote
Vote SNL
Either way, we're all gonna burn
Either way, we're all gonna burn
Either way, we're all gonna burn
------------
@SNL: that is one of the strangest T/S lists I've ever read. it's not even organized from town to scum, but from voting me to people ignoring you to 2 people you add at the end cause god knows why #other. Cantrip puts it all laid out really well, but really, this just reaffirms my vote on you. that and you're still voting me, for pressuring you on something, you still haven't adequately responded to that pressure, I am not the only one pressuring you, but for whatever reason, I'm 100% scum, but gentrip is 70% town. I also responded to you, you refused to respond, twice, you are ignoring my vote on you, and just telling people as a group that in this game "X" I did something similar. A valid meta argument is "I do action X and post like Y in every game I play" not "I did action X once" seriously, the only defense you can muster is WIFOM meta garbage an snarky responses. the fact that that's all you can come up with however goes past WIFOM and is just awful.
-----------
@Hooker: I skimmed over a couple of the games on your MS wiki really quick (couldn't even tell you which ones I did), and came to the conclusion you just post like this, but you do post content at times. like in this game, where you have made a couple points, validity or accuracy aside, are at least something. that and a day one lurker lynch doesn't really do much, since interaction-y analysis is probably the best thing you gain from the D1 lynch. so, while I'm not a fan of your play style, I'm willing to accept it, and just go with it going forward.
though, game related: if you would be so kind, could you take some kind of stand on SNL? you call them bait, which I can only assume means that you think they're just bad town. anything specific that leads you to this belief over him being scum, and why did you feel the need to add the negative qualifier in the second post, effectively discrediting your own read? do you really have that little faith in your read atm?
--------
@Cantrip: when I put "they" there, I was simply referring the person that was left out of the list. They was simply a singular pronoun. kind like how it functions in the contraction "they're". ie: Where's Niv? they're over there. it's not referring to more than one person if that's what you were thinking.
also, you're talking about getting caught with this silver rage thing-y. when you did it, looking back, do you think you did it as scum. would you have done something similar as town? I still thing this tell is a bunch of WIFOM baloney. when you got caught doing it, did you actually think it was something you should have been caught over?
Millionaires, I hear it's good Music (Disclaimer: lyrics not PG-13) Thanks, CC
Unvote
I believe LnGr's #140. The indignation toward me at the beginning feels genuine and his focus on fulcrum seems sincere. He hasn't backed down from his stance on her although he took pressure for the origin of the vote and he doesn't seem to be concerned with or making effort to justify that his other top scum read (Niv) also suspects fulcrum. I'd expect scum to be more mindful of that perception. Also, I've re-read and I'm pretty sure I was being dense about something earlier. I don't agree about fulcrum, though.
LnGr - I'll have overall thoughts on the game to share soon, and I'll answer your question then.
------------------------------------------------
@Niv - In #83 you told 6Cs that you liked his vote on me while saying that I'm 97% likely to be town in the same post. Why did you like the vote from 6Cs there if you thought I was 97% likely to be Town? Your verbiage to 6Cs was that fulcrum's follow up is "much more" suspicious, indicating that my posting was also suspicious. Please explain. Was I 3% suspicious?
@SNL - You say that my angles are wrong and fulcrum is almost as Town as the double voter - but fulcrum has /barned a lot of what I've said - so what's your thought process?
@Cantrip - Need a response to the above before answering you, but my thoughts previously were more in line with HP's. More to come on this after his response.
@Generic - In #93 why were you concerned about it being a pile on LnGr after expressing concern about his play?
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
Millionaires, I hear it's good Music (Disclaimer: lyrics not PG-13) Thanks, CC
I misread your question completely.
I meant much more than your post, which I felt was a town post. probably should have used different words there, but no, I did not think the post ccccccc voted you for was a scum post in the least. I still think the initial case on LnGrrrR was weak, and that it's the interactions that followed that made LnGrrrR scum in my books, but it was not a scummy case, it was a flimsy one, at the time. that's really all I was trying to get across. so, no, I did not find you scummy for that, at all, and probally should have implied that "more" meant more than like nothing. my bad
It's 1AM, I hope that was coherent, I;m going to bed.
Millionaires, I hear it's good Music (Disclaimer: lyrics not PG-13) Thanks, CC
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
SNL, give us something to work with here. I mean, explanations for your reads, whether it is gut, meta or whatever.
PS, I will be in NY the next three days vacationing. Won't quite be V/LA but I probably won't be as verbose as usual. When I get a chance, I will look over Fulcrum's posts, especially the ones Cantrip mentioned.
PPS, I hate that the English language doesn't have an indeterminate gender pronoun. "It" doesn't work and he/she sucks. "They" is used in normal conversation but it doesn't really work for purposes shown in this thread.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Nice catch.
UUU Azami, Lady of Scrolls
RRR Diaochan, Artful Beauty
UR(U/R) Tibor, Lumia, & Melek (WIP)
Mafia Stats
/barn everyone asking for more info on SNL's list. I had resolved to give him a pass until later in the game because it's impossible for him to look townie, but this is too much inconsistency to ignore.
@Dkings- how do you feel about Kosa?
Previous Mafia Experience:
Mafia aligned: 2/0 -100%
Town aligned: 4/3 - 57%
As to the modifier, I simply am looking at a macro view--I've had low success with day one lynches here. Facts are facts, it isn't meant to discredit my point(that I think SNL is town, if bad--from my third-hand meta skills he seems to have a soulbound cloak of scumminess attached to his person, which means I look at him with mild bemusement and caution).
Either way, we're all gonna burn
If SNL: has a "soulbound cloak of scummieness" how does one go about reading them, in your minds? is it possible to acquire accurate reads through that. if they act like town, are they then scum?
can we also stop with the one game meta bull*****. meta is something built up over multiple games, not "oh, look, one game where he was scum".
and even that aside, that list is just so wonky, I'm pretty sure it shines through this metaphorical cloak.
Millionaires, I hear it's good Music (Disclaimer: lyrics not PG-13) Thanks, CC
I'm basing it off of words.
That I didn't read.
Either way, we're all gonna burn
If you see any errors, please let me know.
Not Voting: KoolKoal, DCIII, Hans
UUU Azami, Lady of Scrolls
RRR Diaochan, Artful Beauty
UR(U/R) Tibor, Lumia, & Melek (WIP)
Mafia Stats
Either way, we're all gonna burn
Either way, we're all gonna burn
Part 1: Assumptions make an ass of you and me.
In Niv’s first major post, he 1.assumes that LnGrrR was trying to be witty and the RVS post says nothing about his alignment, 2.assumes that hans’ softclaim has no purpose and is a waste of time, and 3.Assumes that my declaring hans and DCIII town was “random.” The only hint of curiosity he shows is in a question to DCIII that also serves to dismiss DC’s point of view.
Let’s break up major post #2.
Here we have insults instead of any curiosity about C6’s statements.
Here we have a dismissal of RVS based in an assumption that DCIII believes a different theory, instead of say being scum.
A bit ignoring my question to LnGrrrR and criticism of Niv’s continuous assumptions, to focus solely on what Niv perceived to be the scummy part of my post. Again, no actual questions to figure out what I’m thinking.
.
Then there’s more ignoring my points in favor of pushing through a simplified viewpoint.
And it wraps up a slur against Hooker Punch instead of specific push for anything.
The trend continues in post 83, where Niv ignores me telling him exactly what’s he’s doing wrong in order to attack for adding no content (an accusation which wasn’t actually true). Instead of asking me to post my reasons, he doubtcasts with the phrase “I'm curious what you've got to hide.” This is clearly not true, because if he was actually curious, he would ask me a question. He goes on to ask repeat the usefulness question to C6 (even though I have trouble thinking of a more useless question), call Cantrip’s tell on Nat “not a tell,” reverse his position on LnGrrrR based on an unelaborated “collapse,” assume I haven’t thought for myself (even though there is clear evidence to the contrary), and push Natirasha for lurking without asking her for anything.
I'll probably continue this tomorrow. It should be pretty clear where I'm going with this.
-------------
@fulcrum: my posting style has not changed greatly in 8 years, you telling me to stop insulting people, equating badness to scummieness, and voting me in large part isn't going to either change me, or make me scum.
a lot of my questions are implied, or so I think. but I have an 8 year history again of posting a lot of things that are just my thoughts put to page. I don't keep notes, at all, and often look back to my old posts instead. people are free to respond to them, but they don't really have to, unless of course they want to change my mind. my thoughts are there for people to see, and then react to. you're attacking me for lack of curiosity, where not only is every post I make a wall full of content, multiple questions, and lots of thought that can be responded to. you saying my posts lack curiosity is so beyond wrong I really don't even know how you're trying to misrepresent me like that. no one that's reading the thread at all is going to go with that line of thinking, and you making this case proves you're reading the thread, and either you're just beyond dense, or misrepresenting me. which is it?
in this game, when someone says something, start discussion with them. just because they (any situation, not just with me) don't pose something explicitly as a question. Also, maybe if you'd explain yourself when someone call you out. I don't need to ask you something to have a discussion. when you talk with someone in, you know, person, everything that you say doesn't end in a question. like, you say, instead of asking questions, I "doubtcast". cool, or, you could respond to me without a specific question. like, you continue to push me more for my terminology than anything else.
I get that you don't like my posting style, that I'm "insulting", that I post like I;m actually typing conversational sentences instead of just asking questions. I've linked this game to you like 3 pages ago, and you obviously didn't even skim over anything. I can find more if you;d like, I've been around here long enough that i can find more. my alignment in any game I do find you is going to be irrelevant. you're attacking me for my posting style. I'm a unique player I'd think, and you're just going to have to deal with it. stop trying to say I'm not curious about the game, that I'm not trying to participate, that I'm not asking questions. this is how I bloody play.
and it's 1:20 in the morning, and I just typed all that up, and you're still scum, with SNL, and LnGrrrR. you didn't even bother to skim that game I linked, last time I linked it, or ask for more links, and your still attacking my play style. this is done.
the only actual point you made against me in that whole case that doesn't just feel like you attacking my play style is the point in the middle with regards to DCIII - LnGrrrR interactions. DCIII's initial case was wrong. LnGrrrR's reactions to it, incriminated him. he acted like he was "caught, but for the wrong reasons" the whole time. I agree. the initial case was not a good case, but he got caught in his response. the first case weak, and it still is. I'm not the only person that views RVS differently, I've explained my opinion on it, people disagree, we move on. DCIII's initial case came from a town mindset, but it was wrong, but it still caught scum.
oh, and you call me out for this statement: "Naked votes provoke reactions, shameless naked barns are scum tells." I'll stand by that statement in this game, and the next game, and the next one.
It's 1:30AM, I'm tired and rambling. your case is off base, you refuse to accept my posting style for what it is, and you clearly misrepresenting what I am doing to boot. I am umpteen questions to people, posting thoughts that can be interacted with. people seem to think I can't be discussed with, and my thoughts, when not posed as a question, are like set in stone. but all I see is you, as scum, trying to push my play style for whatever reason, probably because you think you can get people to buy it. well, I'm not buying it.
I'm Voting SNL atm, but understand that I am more than willing to vote any of the three scum in this game, as has been said prior, so conciser my vote on you as well.
Millionaires, I hear it's good Music (Disclaimer: lyrics not PG-13) Thanks, CC
You didn't think that RVS was a tell and that my reasoning for pushing it was bad
You thought that the later reactions proved that he was scum
You're still focused on talking about why the RVS wasn't a tell and why that push was incorrect when you think it ended up catching scum.
I feel like the more common and logical response there would be to think that maybe you were wrong and that it was a tell because you'd be reconsidering LnGr's mindset in initially posting if you now think he's scum. It doesn't seem natural to me that you're still focused on arguing that my initial reason for voting was "wrong," having said so several times, when you believe that the result found scum. It seems more designed to defend your initial stance.
-------------------------------------------------------
fulcrum please answer the question I have out to you about the timing of your vote on Niv in #110 while still suspecting LnGr.
-------------------------------------------------------
@HP - Who is 3P? If you were planning on voting Niv before his previous response and changed your mind, why do you think the wagon is bad now? He had instigated previously.
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
I don't have a strong opinion of Kosa yet, but he's reminding me of Pleasantville and Drury Lane Kosa. He's been very confident and aggressive in this game. He appears to usually be more calm and careful when he's not town.
I agree with this. Niv is one of my strongest town reads.
Which of your three scum reads are you most confident on? I don't agree with you on LnGrrrR based on his recent posts.
This is the second time in a row (in between huge gaps of inactivity, I might add) that you've ignored everything going on in thread, including two questions pointed directly at you, only to focus on Niv with a bunch points, most of which don't actually make him scum, the rest of which aren't real points. You also ignored Niv's response to your awful "I don't normally quote out of context, but..." so you could continue pressuring him as if you'd done nothing wrong.
DC's second question has an obvious answer: Niv needed pressure and LnGrrrR already had it. I went where my vote was useful I'm going into detail on the first one now.
Ugh, what was your question? I remember it being kind of pointless.
I've noticed a pattern with scum where they outline what scum players should do in a situation more than they actually analyze the statement, which matches your wording here. If you want, I can link you to a game where I caught scum on this and was ignored.
Let's see, SNL also had a question for me. SNL: Why no follow up?
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
You do understand that you linking that game was part of the problem? You assumed my issue with you was entirely a playstyle one before I had even written a case.
The other issue is naturally your push against LnGrrrR. You don't like that I quoted it out of context? Then let me quote it in context.
Compare the last two sentences. There's "you're totally helping the town win this game" which implies absolute belief that LnGrrrR is scum, but lacks the self-congratulatory tone a townie should have. Then the next sentence is the polar opposite, advising LnGrrrR to defend himself. The attitudes don't jive.
2nd, being able to show me one time it worked does not establish a pattern.
3rd, that isn't even what I did. I said what DCIII did and explained why its a possible scum move. Exactly the opposite of what you accuse me of, in fact.
An argument for what scum DC should have done, would have been a bad argument for his towniness, actually, so your reasoning makes even less sense.
UUU Azami, Lady of Scrolls
RRR Diaochan, Artful Beauty
UR(U/R) Tibor, Lumia, & Melek (WIP)
Mafia Stats
i know I'm snarky and enigmatic. I play this game because I like the specific combination of behavioral analysis+mechanical knowledge it entails, there is a lot of room to work my brain muscles while entertaining people. Every game is a performance, so to speak. It's fascinating and very exciting.
As to your questions. Since my return to mafia in April of last year, I have been lynched on day one exactly once. You got to understand beyond my erratic and know-nothing nature, I do actually have a plan and game I play. When I say i don't read, well, I don't read the words. I find words to be rather unimportant to the game we call mafia--emotional foretelling, timing cues, and understanding strategic motivations are all more important than the words people speak.
I mispoke on my instigated comment--I meant, Niv's been an instigator and in a pro-town fashion. I'm pretty sure fulcrum is town in his attack, but it's fundamentally flawed in the way pbpas usually are--there is a reason pbpas went out of style at mafiascum.
Generic I miss your presence. Is Cantripomandude holding back your vanity or what?
Vote: KoolKoal
Why? That's for me to know and you to tease out of me.
Either way, we're all gonna burn
You're drunk. What makes Niv town to you?
You're drunk. What makes Niv town to you? "Sincerity" in 179?
No you're not: you're just a lot of fluff. Will you start producing relevant content anytime soon or will that only come after you're on the verge of being lynched?
If you're town, stop being a distraction and actually do something other than naked votes and one-liners.
Previous Mafia Experience:
Mafia aligned: 2/0 -100%
Town aligned: 4/3 - 57%
The chances of a Niv + Fulcrum scumteam seems pretty low at this point; unless one of them is Iso in disguise.
Cantrip, as someone who has bussed scum from the jump before, what do you think the odds are that Niv and Fulcrum are both scum?
SNL, where are you?
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
-------
@dkings: I'm pretty much equally sure of all of my reads, but I think the SNL mess is the most blatantly scummy.
-------
@koal: you're one to talk about huge gaps of inactivity.
-------
@fulcrum: so, wait, you want to have us meta you, to verify your accuracy, but you're unwilling to spend 5 minutes or less skimming that game I linked, and will continue to push a case based largely on my vocabulary, posting style, and personality. all I did was link my posts in that game, that's all you need to read. heck, you don't even need to look at my alignment in that game, or anyone else's alignment. you don't like the way I post. I'm not changing the way I post. clearly we're at an impasse here.
also, "hmmmmmmmm you're totally helping the town win this game........." if an over exaggerated hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm and a .................. don't imply sarcasm on the Internet, I guess nothing does. I guess I needed more air quotes. and you attack my posting style again.
you made a case based almost entirely based on my posting style, I try to prove to you that "that's how I post" and you're like "Oh, I can't be bothered to figure out how you actually post, too much effort" yah, blow me. if you're gonna make a case like that, you better be prepared to spend 5 minutes figuring out if the case can stick instead of spending the, probably about an hour, making a case. don't ***** to me about time, you obviously have enough to make this case, so, why don't you put aside some time to verify it.
so, everything I've already found you scummy for, we get to add to it you're a gigantic bloody hypocrite. yah, I think you're done here.
---------
@kosa: this game aside, this new software is like the devil. that being said, I'm going to assume you've read my response to your vote on me a couple pages back, but you'd rather call people drunk for disagreeing with you than retype what you've lost? like, I've lost essays before too, but I don't normally go ahead and act like I posted what I lost, and move on, unless of course you're not planning on actually responding back to me, then I still don't get where this is going. however if you're just going to attack anyone that disagrees with you, I'm pretty sure you're not going to be capable of even talking to at this point.
Millionaires, I hear it's good Music (Disclaimer: lyrics not PG-13) Thanks, CC
@cantrip... or gen... the post didn't say.
age range I can give you. 13-25
CHECK OUT MY TRIBAL CUSTOM SET KREVAN
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/creativity/custom-card-creation/custom-set-creation-and/530273-krevan-the-first-set-in-a-tribal-block
Niv has probably been the most active player in the game in terms of asking questions and applying pressure to more than just 1-2 people. He is clearly trying to get a handle on everyone and seems very town to me. Hell, just look at 197, he's engaging everyone and isn't backing down from questions or attacks.
I'm slightly amused that you asked this question because, based on interactions, there are several reasons to suspect you if fulcrum flips scum.
Also find it curious that SNL popped in to PTAP just after being prodded by LnG.
What's the rush?