Alright, go ahead and hang me, but in the end you'll se i was right.
There is no reason for this defeatist attitude unless you have a guilty conscious. Other players are just asking you to explain your thought process so that they can get a better read on you. If you are town, you should be trying to prove that instead of accepting your own lynch, especially this early in the day.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I'm a compulsive liar no matter what team I play on, but I'm trying to get better about it."
There is no reason for this defeatist attitude unless you have a guilty conscious. Other players are just asking you to explain your thought process so that they can get a better read on you. If you are town, you should be trying to prove that instead of accepting your own lynch, especially this early in the day.
Good point. My thought process for voting on DCI is that he instantly jumped on LnGrrrR for something pretty small. Then when fulcrum switched over made me suspcious of him. I voted along with them, if just to prove my suspicions, or to get rid of LnG if he really is scum.
anyways, Unvote
Vote: DCIII
Vote: DCIII
This time I won't be changing without good reason.
After consideration, given that I try to check frequently and keep the vote count updated, I will make sure to post at least one per page. I don't want to post it every time I make an adjustment because if I do I'll end up posting 3+ a page, which is excessive.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
EDH UUU Azami, Lady of Scrolls RRR Diaochan, Artful Beauty UR(U/R) Tibor, Lumia, & Melek (WIP)
I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
After the fiasco that was giving doublevote powers to scum in both Legend of Lucian and Survival Horror, I don't think the error would be repeated for the third time... But then again, Iso is one of the reviewers of this game. Hm.
I'm torn.
@Gentrip: since you've checked Niv and realized that self-voting is not a tell for him, why didn't you just do the same with Hooker before voting her?
frankly I would have preferred to keep the ability secret a bit longer, but kosa and those voting against me made it impossible. Also, I have next to no mafia exp... this is literally my third game. (in IRL, this is my first computer game.)
I feel like DCIII has been trying too hard thus far. Putting more weight on his reads of LnGrrrR than makes sense, and adding suspicion to cccc as an aside rather than pushing him at all.
I'll consolidate all of my thoughts on LnGr after this but as for the second point, how is what I did with 6Cs an aside or not pushing him? What about my approach to him would you have expected me to do differently? Also, what's your reasoning behind calling out my approach to 6Cs as opposed to Niv in that same post?
LnG thought his was the first post, indicating that it took him at least 7 minutes (based on Hans's time stamp) to compose the post, indicating that he gave a lot of thought to what he wanted his RVS post to say. The enthusiasm in his post feels forced as well.
My initial reaction to this was to wonder why you assumed that LnGrrrR was postcrafting rather than real life interrupting his post. That LnGrrrR didn't take what I would see as a logical and easy out makes me think he's sincere in thinking that he was posting first.
It wasn't just that there was a lag between Hans's post and LnGrs. If he'd posted a one line quip or something I probably would have thought that there was OOG reasoning for the delay. It was a combination of the lag and how the post was constructed. More on this to come.
He does ask a few questions to CC but he asks why Hunger's post affects his gut read. Hunger isn't in this game! CC was saying that he wasn't thinking clearly due to his own physical Hunger... which also makes me think that Lngr wasn't thinking critically about his questions to CC but was rather asking them to look busy.
This actually makes me lean town on LnGrrrR. I think scum would be much more aware of who's in the game or not. Maybe LnGrrrR's sloppy scum, but it doesn't feel that way to me.
The way it reads to me is that he wasn't interested with what 6Cs was actually saying, but that he wanted to appear to be scum hunting by asking that slot questions. More on this to come as well.
@DCIII: I think you and I just differ on theory here with regards to RVS. I personally believe that the interactions are a place to look, but never something like a first post like that. you can just argue in a circle forever #WIFOM. there is no "defense" to what you accused him of that can't be argued in a circle afterwards, and can't be proven since it's outside the game knowledge. for all we know, he could have said he opened the thread and then had to go take a dump. (he didn't, but it's an example). as to the enthusiasm bit, maybe it was forced, but in a game (referring to mafia as a whole) like this, 90% of RVS posts are forced, it's just how much detail goes into it. sorry, not a tell. /end theory.
I don't agree that RVS is only useful when examining interactions... tone, self-consciousness, forced enthusiasm, etc are all things that can be picked up on. A couple of my most recent games have seen scum behavior in RVS get exposed and then other circumstances let that player off the hook until they were caught later in the game. If it feels off, often it is. In this case it wasn't solely the lag between the post or the forced enthusiasm, it was both together. You say we just differ with regard to our RVS approach but then your conclusion is to dismiss that RVS can be used as a tell in this way (because you're saying that 90% of RVS posts are forced, implying that's not useful information). I also find this hard to believe because you self vote in every RVS - and players who do that often do so because they want to develop a standard opening so that there isn't the opportunity to catch them in RVS if they are scum... meaning that you do likely see the value in RVS analysis because you avoid behavior that would allow you to be caught by it.
Good point. My thought process for voting on DCI is that he instantly jumped on LnGrrrR for something pretty small. Then when fulcrum switched over made me suspcious of him. I voted along with them, if just to prove my suspicions, or to get rid of LnG if he really is scum.
6Cs - If you thought that I was scum for jumping on LnGr for something that you thought was small, how would voting along with fulcrum and myself have proved your suspicions? How would that have been a better approach than voting for me and questioning my reasoning for voting for LnGr?
Your initial vote on him was naked. Then, after he responded, you unvoted and said that you'd trust him not to be scum. If your plan was to expose fulcrum and/or myself for voting him by voting for him yourself, how would jumping off of him after his first response help to accomplish that?
If you were more confident about fulcrum and myself being scum, why did you vote Hans after unvoting LnGr rather than one of us? What specifically about Hans's posts made you think that he wasn't trying to hide that he (Hans) was scum?
The part I bolded above shows the contradiction in your mindset. You are saying that you voted LnGr both to prove that fulcrum and I are scum because you think he's town, and also that you voted for him in case he is scum to get rid of him. But if you actually believed one or the other then you wouldn't present the other as a reason that you voted for him.
Hello fellow party members! Let's get these games started, shall we?
I'll go first!
Vote: Miss_Lynch
Because Generic is always scum in games with me, and Cantrip just won in RTR by cheating his Selesnyan buddies. What more could you ask for? Let's get this wagon a-rolling!
So the first thing that stood out to me about this post was that he thought it was the first post of the game (LnGr, to respond to one of your points, I'm aware of how the website will post and you'll have to refresh to see that you came in after the previous poster - that's why I knew that when you started your post Hans hadn't posted yet). So I knew that he hadn't seen Hans's post when he started his, which meant that his post took him at least 7 minutes or that he opened the post and got distracted and came back to it (which I don't think was the case based on the below).
Looking at the post itself, it feels very forced. All but one sentence has an exclamation mark or a question mark. The "Hello fellow party members!" followed by the "I'll go first!" feels like a lot of effort to try to illustrate excitement/enthusiasm for the game but then the reason for placing the RVS vote on both members of the hydra is very reasoned and thought out. So the whole post seemed unnatural to me which, coupled with the fact that he thought he was first, makes me think it was likely that he spent that full time trying to figure out how he wanted to construct that post.
So it didn't seem whimsical or free at all, but it felt designed and carefully crafted to appear that it was.
Since then I've gone back and looked at many of LnGrrR's other openings to games to see if this is normal for him. LnGrrrr has replaced into a lot of games but of those he's started, his Town games open either with whimsical one liners that feel very natural and are much shorter, or get right down to business (Sesame St. is an example of getting right down to business, TMNT and House are examples of a one-line quips). The lone exception with this was in Apocalypse where his opening post was longer - but note the use of periods. That post feels much more calm and natural and the humor is genuine.
Compare all of those with Battlestar Galactica where he was scum:
LnGrrrR bounces off the ropes, and lands a giant elbow drop on TheColdMonarch! The crowd goes nuts! And now, oooohhh a power slam! LnGrrrR showing no regard for human life!
Vote TheColdMonarch ... Because he has the most wrestler-y name here and I'm jealous.
Games in which he's trying not to be caught he's more over the top in RVS.
Actually, mine was the first post AFAIK. But this forum' software seems screwy and doesn't post things in order like it should.
Fulcrum's vote on me is bad, and she should feel bad. OMGUS vote, away!
Unvote
Vote: Fulcrum
Generic got to the heart of this one. LnGr didn't question me at all. fulcrum barned my case and Niv voted for her and LnGrr added his vote to her while being self-aware that what he was doing seemed like OMGUS - but didn't have concerns or follow up with me - later saying that he thought it spoke well of me that I was looking at time stamps - but if fulcrum's vote on him was bad and she was presumably barning my reasons, then why wasn't my vote bad or why didn't he try to get her to elaborate on her vote on him more? It feels like he's taking the opportunity to jump on fulcrum since Niv did without following that up with further questions or pressure, or doing anything to differentiate her opinions from mine.
Hans does the "let's hunt teh scum" as an RVS first post in quite a few recent games. I don't think it says anything one way or another.
I do think DC3 paying attention to timestamps and mindsets shows well on him.
I don't really see how me calling attention to my OMGUS makes a difference. *shrug*
I like Kosa for town so far.
So he's under pressure now from myself, fulcrum, and Generic and makes this post, which speaks positively of everyone in it and also brushes off the point that Generic was making about calling out the OMGUS being a pre-emptive action to keep others from saying the same thing. This is the post I was talking about when I said that his response felt very controlled - he's trying to diffuse the situation.
Cccc, do you think Hans is scum or not? If you think he is scum, why are you voting me? Why does Hunger's post affect your gut read?
Here's the post where I said he only threw a few questions out to 6Cs. He has a vote on fulcrum but he's not pressing her at all or trying to figure out more from her or distinguish her motives from mine. Instead, he just said mostly positive things about the people above and then I think that he wanted to appear busy, so he asked some questions to 6Cs - but asking him about Hunger's post shows that he wasn't really paying attention to what 6Cs was saying prior to those questions because it was clear from context what he was talking about. So this makes me think that LnGrrrR wasn't triggered to ask these questions by being genuinely curious about 6Cs, he was asking them for the appearance of asking them.
My bad on thinking Hunger was in the game. We are a whopping 40 posts in after all; of course I should have everyone memorized by now
I also think the whole "not scumhunting" thing is pretty silly. The game just started, how much scum hunting do you think can really go on in the first 50 posts? I am fine with you looking at my RVS post (as sometimes scum can be caught by that), but I didn't think it was particularly forced. *shrug* You also didn't comment about my mentioning the software is out of wack sometimes.
I happen to think I am a particularly bad lynch. The fact that you think I should "definitely" be the lynch today with so few posts is interesting. I don't remember you being so cocksure about your reads so early in the Day.
LnGR - I've addressed most of these points above - but as for the last part, what are you basing that on?
I'll consolidate all of my thoughts on LnGr after this but as for the second point, how is what I did with 6Cs an aside or not pushing him? What about my approach to him would you have expected me to do differently? Also, what's your reasoning behind calling out my approach to 6Cs as opposed to Niv in that same post?
I said you talked about cccccc808 as an aside because you put LnGrrrR as a higher priority than him, despite that you had put more solid questions about cccccc808 than LnGrrrR into the thread. Assumptions about mindset are much less solid than the flailing cccccc808 was doing, yet you put LnGrrrR ahead of him, even claiming he is the sure lynch over it.
It's often a good play for scum to only nod at the popular wagon while pushing another. If the popular wagon is scum, you pull attention from the wagon, but still have left an avenue open for later bussing if the wagon continues. If they're town, and get mislynched, you didn't even truly participate on their wagon.
The reason I don't attach Niv to this is because the reason I find the move scummy doesn't apply to him, as he wasn't a popular wagon.
I'll share my thoughts on your more in-depth LnGrrrR post after LnGrrrR responds.
@Hookerpunch: Why are you posting nothing but active-lurking quality posts? Why are you still voting for yourself?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
Why are open barns indicative of scum, Niv? If you want my thoughts so badly, why don't you ask for them?
adding no content to the current discussion and just shamelessly following what someone else has said has always been linked to scummy tactics. if you don't even post reasoning in your own words, then you can either go "I was on a successful lynch" if it's a good lynch, and the counter to that you can go "well, I thought it was a good lynch, but I was just following player X" when it's a bad one.
also, if you don't want to post your reasoning behind things, I'm curious what you've got to hide.
@CCCCCC: even post "Claim" I still want to know from you, how you thought that your posts that got you under suspicion in the first place were useful at all. given that a proven double voter is 95% town, I want to know some of your actual thoughts. though, I do like your vote on DCIII, though I still think fulcrum's follow up to DCIII's post is much more suspicious, since DCIII appears to legitimately believe that initial "case" was a good one, and not nonsense. but no, you at least partially calming pretty much abolishes you from the spotlight for now.
@SelesnyaNewLife: did you like, miss the part where CCCCCCCCCCCCCCC voted twice in the post immediately preceding yours? cause like, that's big........ if you still voted him while acknowledging it, it would be different, but the fact that you completely ignored it is pretty suspect. blame it on your phone, classic.
@Cantrip:: is there more to the vote on hooker than the "vote on natrisha"? or is that really it? is there nothing in this thread that you find scummier than a stock tell that isn't a tell?
@DCIII: 90% of my self vote opener is now tradition. but yes, I do also like it as a standard open, because it's a standard open. but it's because I don't want to have to deal with people over analyzing my RVS posts and me just telling them to blow themselves. I don;t think that kind of RVS tell is a tell. I won't call someone out on it, and I don;t want to have to deal with it myself. but no, if I were to try to make an RVS post that was real, it would be forced, so, i just stick to tradition (be this my first game in 2 years or not).
----------------------------
However I guess something I am willing to concede is there probably people that play this game where this is the case, and your case on DCIII kinda proves it, but I really do hate meta wagons as a whole, but the case isn't 100% meta, and especially where you point LnG's 36 where he does try to brown nose everyone that's suspicious of him instead of actually dealing with his problem at hand, is really awful, and I hadn't made the connection there upon first glance. your analysis of his 37 is pretty spot on as well.
but here's the thing as well, at the point where fulcrum jumped on to this particular wagon, it was still flimsy, and I stand by my belief that at that point LnG hadn't done nearly enough to enter suspicion. so, fulcrum still looks awful. but the best part of this, was that the wagon was initially wrong IMO, but when pressured, the target collapsed like flan in a cupboard, leading me to believe you are like 97% town yourself, regardless of how this situation plays out, because you legitimately believe that it was initially a good wagon.
-----------
so, that out of the way
@fulcrum: you still haven't actually done anything yourself, or thought for yourself, you even comment on it in you #80, but then all you feel like doing is pressuring another lurker. that post just blew my mind. think you could think for yourself sooner rather than later.
-----------
Lastly:
@HookerPunch: continue posting like that day one and you will be my Day 2 Vote. I'm not about to push a day one lurker lynch, but if that's all you plan on doing all game, I'm not even sure why you signed up........
-----------
but at this point, with CCCCCCCC being a proven double voter, and a compelling case on LnGrrrR, lets just go ahead and go with an UnVote, Vote LnGrrrR
Re: time lag, it is most likely due to having to pull the orange text off the first page. I phone post nearly 99% of the time. Also, I have been trying to provide clues to my identity in some of my games (see RTR where I crumbed jail keeper) but then I remembered that might get me modkilled so I just went with the "guests" theme.
I didn't question you because you had reasoning behind your vote. I can't really argue it other than "Nuh-uh!" Anything I say to defend myself would be WIFOMy. I have faith that as the game goes along, I will prove my towniness.
Fulcrum on the other hand just jumped on with no comment then declared others town with no reasoning. I wasn't a fan, and still am not. Fulcrum seems to be going out of her way to not question people or provide interactions.
Forgot to add: re: the OMGUS, what would a "correct" response look like there? I mean, yeah it's an OMGUS technically because Fulcrum voted me first, I still see Fulcrum as scummy.
DC3, I would have to look up your other games for examples, but you strike me as a deliberate player, as opposed to, say, Seppel, who just goes off the rails and declares people scum (like BSG). Both playstyles work for different people, but you never struck me as the "I am SURE this person is scum; good game lets lynch him" player.
I feel like hans is scum due to his posts so far. I could be wrong, and if LnG gets lynched I know exactly who the scum are. But no, I'm not scum.
Now that you're almost certain to be town, why don't you actually give us some reasons why you think you know who the scum are? Don't just vote, help us out so we can see if you see something we don't.
Hans is town because the stupid call for softclaimes (especially the line " I have a hypothesis that I would like to test.") came from an arrogant, town mindset. His post 46 reinforces that read, by confirming my suspicion that he was attempting to test people.
How does testing for reactions automatically make someone town?
@DCIII: I think you and I just differ on theory here with regards to RVS. I personally believe that the interactions are a place to look, but never something like a first post like that. you can just argue in a circle forever #WIFOM. there is no "defense" to what you accused him of that can't be argued in a circle afterwards, and can't be proven since it's outside the game knowledge. for all we know, he could have said he opened the thread and then had to go take a dump. (he didn't, but it's an example). as to the enthusiasm bit, maybe it was forced, but in a game (referring to mafia as a whole) like this, 90% of RVS posts are forced, it's just how much detail goes into it. sorry, not a tell. /end theory.
RVS analysis is pretty much the flavor of the month around here right now, so get used to it if you're planning to become a frequent player again.
After the fiasco that was giving doublevote powers to scum in both Legend of Lucian and Survival Horror, I don't think the error would be repeated for the third time... But then again, Iso is one of the reviewers of this game. Hm.
I'm torn.
I have only seen a scum doublevoter in one game that wasn't an Iso game, and that was a specialty (Majora's Mask) in which the ability a) was granted by an item, and b) was lost at LyLo. I think it's pretty safe to assume that c808 is town.
Forgot to add: re: the OMGUS, what would a "correct" response look like there? I mean, yeah it's an OMGUS technically because Fulcrum voted me first, I still see Fulcrum as scummy.
This is incredibly self-conscious. Your vote isn't OMGUS if you have a real reason for putting it down. You're basically admitting that, a) you had to formulate a "good" response to the pushes against you, and b) the vote is effectively OMGUS because you didn't really have a good reason to place it.
Eh, I find most votes in the early game to be for prodding and pushing purposes. It wasn't like that vote was "KMG SLAM DUNK SCUM FULCRUM!" At that point in the game, no one has a strong reason for voting another, so it looks like an OMGUS vote no matter what.
I also think the whole "self-conscious" tell is BS. I have seen scum post carefree, and I have seen town be careful. It could just be because I suck at reading people, and have to rely on logical inconsistencies, but I don't usually take stock in "funny RVS" unless it is not voting for someone, or overly long/explanatory (AE in some recent game for the first example, and I believe Cantripmancer for the 2nd?)
I have only seen a scum doublevoter in one game that wasn't an Iso game, and that was a specialty (Majora's Mask) in which the ability a) was granted by an item, and b) was lost at LyLo. I think it's pretty safe to assume that c808 is town.
Yeah, you're probably right... But that doesn't make my gut go any less paranoid whenever behavioral obvscum are pseudo-cleared by virtue of their roles. Lucian Mafia comes to head
@LnGrrrR: is there a reason instead of responding to the actual behavior/interaction analysis part of DCIII's case, and the parts I reiterated as well, you're yammering on about the RVS stuff, and in turn still not actually helping, like, do more than just flail, at least post some reads while you do, if you're town. seriously, what your doing is neither helping yourself, or the town, so, I'm not sure what your goal is, but at the moment, it doesn't appear to include staying alive.
----------------
an aside Re: double voters.
I've seen them as non town roles a few times, but never outside of a specialty. It's been a while but I think it was one of Xyre's older specialties where carrion pigeons had a role where as the godfather, he was -2 to lynch, but had votes equal to the number of votes on him, which was really, really, really, silly. I think I've seen a couple others, but they all had restrictions of some kind, where they couldn't function on lyol situations, or they couldn't hammer with it, or they couldn't use it after a day 2 or something, and if CCCCCCC is still a functioning double voter every day, with no funny business, he's pretty much in the blue at this point.
-------------
@Dkings: I was really expecting a vote of some kind at the end of that post on someone. that's a lot of suspicion thrown around and no action. Are you really not comfortable putting a vote on someone at this point in the game?
-------------
Gentrip's 93 is pretty spot on at analyzing Lng's mindset, since he's come under suspicion, and I'm really liking the hydra atm.
-------------
@Kosa: with everything that's going on right now, you think the best course of action is an "answer my question or die" vote? you were looking good earlier, but your 92 is practically active lurker quality. got nothing useful to add?
@cantrip: Re Hooker: yes, since I asked you that question, I've come to the same opinion of that myself, but I don't quite think that a day one lurker lynch is one I would ever support.
I also never looked at the time stamp regarding SNL, and that's a pretty big disparity......
I've seen them as non town roles a few times, but never outside of a specialty. It's been a while but I think it was one of Xyre's older specialties where carrion pigeons had a role where as the godfather, he was -2 to lynch, but had votes equal to the number of votes on him, which was really, really, really, silly. I think I've seen a couple others, but they all had restrictions of some kind, where they couldn't function on lyol situations, or they couldn't hammer with it, or they couldn't use it after a day 2 or something, and if CCCCCCC is still a functioning double voter every day, with no funny business, he's pretty much in the blue at this point.
Oh i have a restriction. I just can't reveal it or I will be modkilled...
Anyways, here's my thought process on when I was trying to lynch LnG
there were three scenarios I saw.
A) LnG was scum and I could get rid of him on the first day.
B) DC3 is scum and fulcrum is his scumbuddy. However, I did not want to reveal that I knew this info. If LnG was towwn, I might have gone after them.
C) DC3 and fulcrum are not scum, neither is Lng. I am just being paranoid.
I felt like DC3 and fulcrum were scum, and I was voting with them to prove my suspicions. Now I realize that it was a poor move on my part.
I've seen them as non town roles a few times, but never outside of a specialty. It's been a while but I think it was one of Xyre's older specialties where carrion pigeons had a role where as the godfather, he was -2 to lynch, but had votes equal to the number of votes on him, which was really, really, really, silly. I think I've seen a couple others, but they all had restrictions of some kind, where they couldn't function on lyol situations, or they couldn't hammer with it, or they couldn't use it after a day 2 or something, and if CCCCCCC is still a functioning double voter every day, with no funny business, he's pretty much in the blue at this point.
-------------
@Dkings: I was really expecting a vote of some kind at the end of that post on someone. that's a lot of suspicion thrown around and no action. Are you really not comfortable putting a vote on someone at this point in the game?
In response to the first part, there was recently a Mini with a restricted town doublevoter. Marvel Madness 2... check out Wildfire393's role.
In response to the second part, I don't typically throw a lot of votes around. I'm not very strong at early-game analysis, my engines get revving once interactions start piling up. I find LnG's behavior suspect, but SNL's vote on c808 makes me cringe and I'm waiting for a response as to why he placed that vote after c808's obvious intention to double-vote.
Oh i have a restriction. I just can't reveal it or I will be modkilled...
Niv says "scum doublevoters almost always have restrictions".
6c says "I have a restriction."
Can't tell if honest town or plotting scum.
I'm going with honest town. The fact that he openly stated he has a restriction immediately after Niv's post gives him even more towncred in my book. Taking him at his word that this is his first internet game, I don't see him willingly throwing that out, even if there is some WIFOM around it.
@Kosa: with everything that's going on right now, you think the best course of action is an "answer my question or die" vote? you were looking good earlier, but your 92 is practically active lurker quality. got nothing useful to add?
Dat smear.
I ask a question and am ignored.
I reinforce the question and again am ignored.
What else would you suggest that I could have done to make them stop ignoring me, other than voting?
@Kosa: Because my vote wasn't just for her self-vote. Gen says that her behavior isn't unusual, but I don't see why that means she should get away with it.
@Kosa: Not a clue what Silver Rage is. the fact that you refer to me calling you out on a bad vote as a smear is pretty awful. votes are for the scum, not the person you think is ignoring you. and if you'd been paying any attention, you'd have known you asked the question to the Cantrip half, and it was the Gen half that was talking. so, not only was it a vote that did nothing for the game, the reason was scummy, and it was inappropriate to boot since you hadn't been truly ignored yet. the fact that you're also writing the accusation off as a smear is even more telling.
--------
@ Dking: I'm also going to go with honest town as well. my comment doesn't go both ways with regards to double voting roles. scum double voters are almost exclusively restricted, but town double voting roles are nowhere near exclusively unrestricted.
--------
@LnGrrrR: so what you're telling me is you're unwilling to actually respond to the accusations against you at all. cool, if that's the case you can die now.
didn't refresh the thread since posting and didn't see SNL's post.
the question posed to you by multiple people was how is it being a phone post an explanation for you not even commenting on CCCCCC's double vote when you voted him, given that I find it highly unlikely that you didn't refresh the thread for 2 hours before posting from your phone.
I’m loving this game. I’ve never felt so strongly about a poe this early on in an mtgs game. It almost feels like my home site.
Fulcrum
cccccc808
hansanator
DCIII
Miss_Lynch
KoolKoal
dkingsland967
HookerPunch
SelesnyaNewLife
Kosakosa
LnGrrrR
Niv
C6 is town for the vote and post. hans is town for, well, pretty much everything.
DCII and Miss_Lynch are likely town, DC for the close attention to detail and believing the case against LnGrrrR, and Miss_Lynch is town for the argument between Generic and Cantrip regarding LnGrrrR.
KoolKoal’s post 47 felt towny for the way it went after a very strong player and the wording “that’s silly.” His post was less so, as the wording “It's often a good play for scum to only nod at the popular wagon while pushing another,” feels like a cop out. Dkings account of his meta in 102 felt real, but I don’t really like the length of his posts or the nath’d comment. Actually, post 102 is the only reason I’m sort of town reading him. Hookerpunch doesn’t care about appearances. He’s experienced enough to do that intentionally to give off a “too scummy to be scum” vibe, but I’m willing to let him be for now.
Not sure about SNL, but from what I know of him, he shouldn't be too hard to figure out down the line.
Kosa’s started overly aggressively it post 9 and 34. It’s unnatural, and likely because he feels he has to act towny. LnGrrrR is bad for the reasons DCIII alright pointed out (though the Hunger thing could go either way).Niv shows a marked lack of curiosity about mindsets, hasn’t actually read my posts despite his attacks on me, and has wording that betrays a scummindset.
@Miss_Lynch: On the topic of the coloured votes, it's a way for me to skim easily and have something to look for. If you (Generic), or others are playing from phone and have issues with getting the code, it's fine, just understand I might miss it when I scroll through. I'm not going to be overly strict about it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
EDH UUU Azami, Lady of Scrolls RRR Diaochan, Artful Beauty UR(U/R) Tibor, Lumia, & Melek (WIP)
I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
My list is pretty much this, except Niv and Hookerpunch are swapped. And I don't really have an order for the middle 6 people, but they are in the middle. Though I doubt that SNL is scum based on his play in Llamas with Hats compared to this game.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I'm a compulsive liar no matter what team I play on, but I'm trying to get better about it."
So, I read through the thread again... LnG, the assumption for you not you scum seems pretty stupid on my part. I feel your posts read more scum now, and I may have to apologize to DC3 (Although he's not in the clear with me yet). I really am having to look over the post about 4 more times before I make a decision, but until then... I feel like you might be scum.
Kosa seems pretty town to me (although he is pretty aggressive)
apparently what I thought was scum behavior was just hans's regular playing style...
Niv does seem to be showing a bit of scum, but that could be nothing...
as for everyone else, I really have no read on you yet.
This game is full of idiots. I will give you guys two dates to pay attention to the game before I just come outright and blow up this game for town.
I don't really feel like spending five days arguing over stupid RVS BS.
Niv, I'm not going to "defend" myself, because it's all based off a BS RVS post, and the subsequent case is based off me trying to "defend" an RVS post.
Feel free to take this post however you want. But I highly suggest that, if you are town, you start looking at other people. It's pretty obvious that there are scum leaning towards my lynch because it's starting to look "easy".
Or you can just be like "omg this post proves he is scum" and I can just screw over town, which is fine for me if town wants to be this dumb and not question why everyone is jumping on my wagon. Your call.
LnG: You thought I was scum, right? Then analyse my post. Does it reinforce or erode your opinion of me? Do you disagree with anything I've said other than the read of you?
You don't want to be lynched? Then start being useful.
Sure Fulcrum, here's a question: do you think Niv and I are scum together?
Completely disagree on the Kosa read. He asked a question, didn't get an answer, then voted to show he was serious. Why people think that is "overly aggressive" makes no sense to me. I hate when people don't answer direct questions from me, and find avoiding questions tends to generally come more from scum than town.
Koal and SNL need to post more.
DKing noticing that SNL's name was longer than his felt towny to me, but it's just a gut read; couldn't explain why it sounds townie.
Generic sounds town; I have trouble reading Cantrip.
Dc3 is likely town, as he is pushing conversation and interactions.
Niv is a bit wishy-washy; I want him to post more so I can get a better idea of him as a player.
Hans I need to see more from. He usually pulls ridiculous gambits as town in the games I have played/read... Not sure if the opening "claim" call is an example of that or not.
HookerpunchingNatirasha has to post more, obviously.
And this post really does nothing for me. An unprompted reads list, with no questions towards others until I flailed some more. Ask more questions, preferably of people that aren't me. I think I have done a good deal of interacting with everyone, and I would like to see some crossfire elsewhere. It's pretty hard to evaluate my own responses.
the wording “It's often a good play for scum to only nod at the popular wagon while pushing another,” feels like a cop out
Explain in more depth please.
SNL having a poor grasp of the game-state is just standard play for him, regardless of his alignment.
I still find DCIII's reasoning on LnGrrrR to be on the weak side (except for where DC said LnGrrrR seemed to be trying to defuse the situation, I could see that).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
Traveling this weekend and will be out of pocket til later Sunday:
@LnGr - your post #114 dismisses the case against you by saying you'd be arguing over "stupid RVS BS" but there's more to the case than that. Your RVS play was what triggered my initial vote on you but your reactions to the pressure are also a big part of it and the fact that the pressure came from RVS initially doesn't matter with regard to that aspect of the case. You're trying to handwave all of it into the RVS bucket.
Your T/S list has everyone (other than fulcrum) either as feeling town or needing players to post more. If you think it's obvious that there are scum leaning toward your lynch because it's starting to look easy then who do you think those players are other than fulcrum and why? If you don't know, then why aren't you doing more to engage with those players who have expressed suspicion of you to try to figure it out? On one hand you say that it's obvious that scum are leaning toward lynching you - but on the other hand you only seem to have one scumspect and you aren't pressing anyone else.
Or you can just be like "omg this post proves he is scum" and I can just screw over town, which is fine for me if town wants to be this dumb and not question why everyone is jumping on my wagon.
This part above, especially, is not a town mindset. You're saying that you're fine screwing over town because they're not questioning why everyone is jumping on your wagon. There were three votes on you at this point with some others expressing suspicion and the only player that you yourself have pushed with any kind of pressure is fulcrum. So how is everyone else being dumb for not questioning the people suspecting you when you haven't done the same? If you were Town, I wouldn't expect you to be so resigned or resort to fear mongering prior to putting much more effort into hunting the scum you feel are so clearly pushing you. You said that you needed to see more from five people on your T/S list but you haven't done anything about it and yet you're indignant that others haven't and think you're scum?
It feels like you're lost on where to go from here and are defaulting to fear mongering and insults - and you seem legit angry. Your play has a "caught for the wrong reasons," attitude about it.
@6Cs - Please respond to my questions in #77. Also, for #113 why do you feel the way you do about Lng, myself, Kosa, and Niv?
@fulcrum - Can you elaborate on the last two points of your Niv read (what makes you think he hasn't read your posts and what wording betrays a scum mindset)? If you are still scum reading LnGr then why move your vote to Niv right now?
@HP - What do you mean by "still hasn't read anything really" - is that in relation to yourself or KoolKoal? What are your reasons for the KoolKoal suspicion?
Generic, it was a bit of a tantrum post, but of all people I think you should understand posting while being frustrated in game and IRL.
DC3, you can say stuff like, "That's not a town mindset" all you want, but you don't know for sure until I flip town/scum. So if you lynch me and I flip town, does it suddenly become a "town" mindset? Your idea of what is and isn't town mindset isn't the end-all, be-all.
And no, it's not caught for the wrong reasons. It's "this town is dumb and I can't convince this dumb town to stop being dumb". What is this "awesome case" on me? An RVS post that people don't like, and a "defense" of said RvS post that people don't like because I shouldn't have to be defending against this case because it's all meta garbage. Which is funny because I am pretty sure there are people in this game who have seen me fila il in other games as town when I'm frustrated but no one is mentioning it. (Gen, you have seen it in Majora. And there was another game recent where I was mislynched nearly the same way, with Seppel being the only one smart enough to see the push. I bieve that was the game where I asked for more time and everyone kept saying my posts were "useless".)
If there is more to the case than RVS + "bad reaction" then spell it out easily for me. I can't defend the "bad reaction" because, spoiler, I DONT THINK IT WAS A BAD REACTION.
Re: who is scum, are you sure you are actually reading my posts DC3? I just said I have been crap at reading people lately, and I also said I have trouble reading while getting attacked. If I had to guess, it would be Fulcrum, Niv and probably someone I currently see as townie. It is obvious that scum is on me because a) I know I am town and B) a lot of people are expressing willingness to lynch. Considering that the odds of everyone distrusting me being only town is slim to none, it's pretty easy to state that there are scum on my wagon. It's obviously much harder to figure out which ones.
@Kosa: Not a clue what Silver Rage is. the fact that you refer to me calling you out on a bad vote as a smear is pretty awful. votes are for the scum, not the person you think is ignoring you. and if you'd been paying any attention, you'd have known you asked the question to the Cantrip half, and it was the Gen half that was talking. so, not only was it a vote that did nothing for the game, the reason was scummy, and it was inappropriate to boot since you hadn't been truly ignored yet. the fact that you're also writing the accusation off as a smear is even more telling.
I see lots of and yet I don't see you addressing my point: I wanted an answer and Gentrip was ignoring me. What could I have done other than vote? Keep repeating the question? Let it go?
You know what is even more telling? Your first sentence. You say you don't know what Silver Rage is, and yet, in your last post to me, you say:
@Kosa: with everything that's going on right now, you think the best course of action is an "answer my question or die" vote? you were looking good earlier, but your 92 is practically active lurker quality. got nothing useful to add?
If you didn't know what I was talking about, then why didn't you ask what it was instead of going with a veiled discredit? How can you possibly believe that I have nothing useful to add if 1) you don't even know what I'm talking about and 2) you are more interested in smearing than figuring me out?
I was going to comment on the mass color claim thing, but it seems as though everything I was going to say has already been said. I tend to post during the morning/afternoon EST (from work), and not much at all overnight, so I have a feeling this is going to happen a lot, given the activity overnight. Rage.
It shows how scum dislike not being able to post something that would make them appear townier because someone else already did. Like this:
I agree with this. I was going to point out fulcrum's naked RVS before I got distracted by cccccc's terrible case of flipflop.
This post is a textbook case of Silver Rage, aggravated by the fact that you weren't aware of it. It doesn't directly add anything to the game bar a /barn, but it allows us to get an insight of your mindset at the time: annoyance for not being able to get townie points by calling fulcrum out on her RVS vote because you thought cccc's behavior would prove a better chance at it... but in the end, it didn't.
You're scum with Niv. Consider my vote to be on you as well.
I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
Oh and here's a question to draw out lurkers, but anyone can answer it.
Do you think the Columbia/Rapture split is flavor only or gameplay affecting?
I think that it is just for flavor purposes. I originally thought that it would be a good idea to mass claim locations just to see if there were any patterns that we could use to our advantage. However, I realized that that might infringe the rule against hinting at your true character. It would be quite awful if the mod modkilled every player in the game...
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I'm a compulsive liar no matter what team I play on, but I'm trying to get better about it."
I don't like how you're pushing this non-issue without specifically calling it scummy.
/vote Niv
if you really didn't think it was implied that I found it scummy. I'm also by far not the only one pushing you for it, and since you're telling me that wasn't the reason you didn't read the thread, I'm not sure what was. It's not a non issue, and you're dismissing the suspicion and responding with a preemptive OMGUS vote, since because I didn't vote you, because there a bigger fish to fry atm. classic.
---------
@Fulcrum: Except I have been reading your posts, I've been comenting on your posts, I've found you scummy this whole game, and I've had my vote on you most of this game, but ok, you don't like the way I play, and my writing style comes across as scummy. I'm sorry, but that's just the way I play. here's the link to my most recent game (abet 2 years ago I have not played a complete game of mafia since). not much I can say, but that's just how I post and if you don't like it, that's fine, but it is what it is.
---------
@LnGrrrR: if you actually think the entirety of the case on you was because of the RVS bull*****, you clearly didn't read the case at all. your 114 is honestly one of the worst posts I've ever seen. defeatism, calling the town idiots, threating the town, and calling your own lynch an easy lynch. if it looks like a fish and tastes like a fish, it probably is a fish. You find DCIII town, but you're unwilling to even read or properly respond to his case on you, by calling him, and anyone else who is going with it an idiot. classic. your scumlist also contains no scum, as was pointed out by DCIII as well. hmmmmmmmm you're totally helping the town win this game......... your continued defeatist attitude is really not helping your case in my mind.
---------
@Kosa: or, I didn't put 2 + 2 together that silver rage meant something. I've gone since 2006~ on this site, and I've never heard the term and just assumed it didn't mean anything that meant anything. you call it a veiled discredit, I call it a blatant discredit. you made a post that I felt didn't contribute anything, and I called you out on it. rather than explain to me, who hasn't been around for ages, that your post did mean something, you call me out for smearing you. I'm more than willing to retract an inaccurate statement, but rather than tell me my statement was inaccurate, you just went ahead and called it a smear. this is a two way street Mr. KosaKosa, and everything you just voted me for, you did in your thought process to vote for me. It was not textbook when I was playing, why should I have assumed it was anything now?
so, sir, I ask you the same question that you just asked me: are you more interested in smearing me than figuring me out?
also of note on theory: having never heard of this scum tell before, upon first glance it appears 100% WIFOM. both town and scum want town cred, how is trying to explain past mindset like that scummy, when town has an equal motivation to make such a post.
----------
@HookerPunch: why are you still voting yourself and do you ever plan on posting one real, thought out paragraph of content in a post, ever? from a little looking around, I can see you're originally from MafiaScum (the website). care to link me a single post you've ever made with more than one paragraph, of thought out content, possibly a read of some kind, or even better you forming a case on someone. I want proof that you're at least willing to be useful at some point in this game.
Niv, I like how in the same post you defend with "That's just my posting style" then claim I am scum because I flail and act desperate. NEWSFLASH I do that as town too. Yes, I threatened the town, because me answering questions nicely didn't seem to be waking up town at all, so I had to try a new tactic. Town should fight to prevent their lynch too; that's what I am doing.
Meanwhile, you talk about horrible posts, look at yours above. You don't give credit to any attack on you, and instead attack the attacker. For instance, when Kosa mentioned Silver Rage, why would you just assume he was making something up? Why wouldn't you just ask him what it meant? And fwiw, we have seen that tell be effective in a few games. In fact, I think Cantrip did it in Apocalypse mafia? ( Cantrip, feel free to confirm.)
Also, your attack on my list is somewhat misrep'd; I obviously had fulcrum as scum but figured it was obvious so didn't put him on the list.
Regarding people jumping on my wagon (and not necessarily with just votes, but indications of willingness to vote), do you think everyone who put me low on their lists was town?
Finally, if you want me to respond to the case, reword it. Put it down in bullet format/fashion. Or come up with your own case/words.
@HookerPunch: why are you still voting yourself and do you ever plan on posting one real, thought out paragraph of content in a post, ever? from a little looking around, I can see you're originally from MafiaScum (the website). care to link me a single post you've ever made with more than one paragraph, of thought out content, possibly a read of some kind, or even better you forming a case on someone. I want proof that you're at least willing to be useful at some point in this game.
If you care, my mafiascum wiki is updated through the end of February. Or, if you're looking for recent, MTGS games, go look through both Winterfell and Deus Ex--that should give you a good grasp of me. The main fact is I take a long time to get started. I need something to get me emotionally invested in the game, so to speak.
No, I will likely never wall either. I just don't.
hmmmmmmmm you're totally helping the town win this game......... your continued defeatist attitude is really not helping your case in my mind.
Normally, I try not to quote things out of context, but damn if this doesn't like something a pissed off scum would say to a scummate who's going down.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
There is no reason for this defeatist attitude unless you have a guilty conscious. Other players are just asking you to explain your thought process so that they can get a better read on you. If you are town, you should be trying to prove that instead of accepting your own lynch, especially this early in the day.
Previous Mafia Experience:
Mafia aligned: 2/0 -100%
Town aligned: 4/3 - 57%
Good point. My thought process for voting on DCI is that he instantly jumped on LnGrrrR for something pretty small. Then when fulcrum switched over made me suspcious of him. I voted along with them, if just to prove my suspicions, or to get rid of LnG if he really is scum.
anyways, Unvote
Vote: DCIII
Vote: DCIII
This time I won't be changing without good reason.
CHECK OUT MY TRIBAL CUSTOM SET KREVAN
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/creativity/custom-card-creation/custom-set-creation-and/530273-krevan-the-first-set-in-a-tribal-block
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Current Votecount
After consideration, given that I try to check frequently and keep the vote count updated, I will make sure to post at least one per page. I don't want to post it every time I make an adjustment because if I do I'll end up posting 3+ a page, which is excessive.
UUU Azami, Lady of Scrolls
RRR Diaochan, Artful Beauty
UR(U/R) Tibor, Lumia, & Melek (WIP)
Mafia Stats
I'm torn.
@Gentrip: since you've checked Niv and realized that self-voting is not a tell for him, why didn't you just do the same with Hooker before voting her?
but no, I did it so people would stop voting for me, and also to put some votes on my suspected scum
CHECK OUT MY TRIBAL CUSTOM SET KREVAN
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/creativity/custom-card-creation/custom-set-creation-and/530273-krevan-the-first-set-in-a-tribal-block
CHECK OUT MY TRIBAL CUSTOM SET KREVAN
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/creativity/custom-card-creation/custom-set-creation-and/530273-krevan-the-first-set-in-a-tribal-block
I'll consolidate all of my thoughts on LnGr after this but as for the second point, how is what I did with 6Cs an aside or not pushing him? What about my approach to him would you have expected me to do differently? Also, what's your reasoning behind calling out my approach to 6Cs as opposed to Niv in that same post?
It wasn't just that there was a lag between Hans's post and LnGrs. If he'd posted a one line quip or something I probably would have thought that there was OOG reasoning for the delay. It was a combination of the lag and how the post was constructed. More on this to come.
The way it reads to me is that he wasn't interested with what 6Cs was actually saying, but that he wanted to appear to be scum hunting by asking that slot questions. More on this to come as well.
I don't agree that RVS is only useful when examining interactions... tone, self-consciousness, forced enthusiasm, etc are all things that can be picked up on. A couple of my most recent games have seen scum behavior in RVS get exposed and then other circumstances let that player off the hook until they were caught later in the game. If it feels off, often it is. In this case it wasn't solely the lag between the post or the forced enthusiasm, it was both together. You say we just differ with regard to our RVS approach but then your conclusion is to dismiss that RVS can be used as a tell in this way (because you're saying that 90% of RVS posts are forced, implying that's not useful information). I also find this hard to believe because you self vote in every RVS - and players who do that often do so because they want to develop a standard opening so that there isn't the opportunity to catch them in RVS if they are scum... meaning that you do likely see the value in RVS analysis because you avoid behavior that would allow you to be caught by it.
6Cs - If you thought that I was scum for jumping on LnGr for something that you thought was small, how would voting along with fulcrum and myself have proved your suspicions? How would that have been a better approach than voting for me and questioning my reasoning for voting for LnGr?
Your initial vote on him was naked. Then, after he responded, you unvoted and said that you'd trust him not to be scum. If your plan was to expose fulcrum and/or myself for voting him by voting for him yourself, how would jumping off of him after his first response help to accomplish that?
If you were more confident about fulcrum and myself being scum, why did you vote Hans after unvoting LnGr rather than one of us? What specifically about Hans's posts made you think that he wasn't trying to hide that he (Hans) was scum?
The part I bolded above shows the contradiction in your mindset. You are saying that you voted LnGr both to prove that fulcrum and I are scum because you think he's town, and also that you voted for him in case he is scum to get rid of him. But if you actually believed one or the other then you wouldn't present the other as a reason that you voted for him.
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
No, I'm not scum generic.
Either way, we're all gonna burn
So the first thing that stood out to me about this post was that he thought it was the first post of the game (LnGr, to respond to one of your points, I'm aware of how the website will post and you'll have to refresh to see that you came in after the previous poster - that's why I knew that when you started your post Hans hadn't posted yet). So I knew that he hadn't seen Hans's post when he started his, which meant that his post took him at least 7 minutes or that he opened the post and got distracted and came back to it (which I don't think was the case based on the below).
Looking at the post itself, it feels very forced. All but one sentence has an exclamation mark or a question mark. The "Hello fellow party members!" followed by the "I'll go first!" feels like a lot of effort to try to illustrate excitement/enthusiasm for the game but then the reason for placing the RVS vote on both members of the hydra is very reasoned and thought out. So the whole post seemed unnatural to me which, coupled with the fact that he thought he was first, makes me think it was likely that he spent that full time trying to figure out how he wanted to construct that post.
So it didn't seem whimsical or free at all, but it felt designed and carefully crafted to appear that it was.
Since then I've gone back and looked at many of LnGrrR's other openings to games to see if this is normal for him. LnGrrrr has replaced into a lot of games but of those he's started, his Town games open either with whimsical one liners that feel very natural and are much shorter, or get right down to business (Sesame St. is an example of getting right down to business, TMNT and House are examples of a one-line quips). The lone exception with this was in Apocalypse where his opening post was longer - but note the use of periods. That post feels much more calm and natural and the humor is genuine.
Compare all of those with Battlestar Galactica where he was scum:
or WWE where he was a survivor.
Games in which he's trying not to be caught he's more over the top in RVS.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then after that
Generic got to the heart of this one. LnGr didn't question me at all. fulcrum barned my case and Niv voted for her and LnGrr added his vote to her while being self-aware that what he was doing seemed like OMGUS - but didn't have concerns or follow up with me - later saying that he thought it spoke well of me that I was looking at time stamps - but if fulcrum's vote on him was bad and she was presumably barning my reasons, then why wasn't my vote bad or why didn't he try to get her to elaborate on her vote on him more? It feels like he's taking the opportunity to jump on fulcrum since Niv did without following that up with further questions or pressure, or doing anything to differentiate her opinions from mine.
So he's under pressure now from myself, fulcrum, and Generic and makes this post, which speaks positively of everyone in it and also brushes off the point that Generic was making about calling out the OMGUS being a pre-emptive action to keep others from saying the same thing. This is the post I was talking about when I said that his response felt very controlled - he's trying to diffuse the situation.
Here's the post where I said he only threw a few questions out to 6Cs. He has a vote on fulcrum but he's not pressing her at all or trying to figure out more from her or distinguish her motives from mine. Instead, he just said mostly positive things about the people above and then I think that he wanted to appear busy, so he asked some questions to 6Cs - but asking him about Hunger's post shows that he wasn't really paying attention to what 6Cs was saying prior to those questions because it was clear from context what he was talking about. So this makes me think that LnGrrrR wasn't triggered to ask these questions by being genuinely curious about 6Cs, he was asking them for the appearance of asking them.
--------------------------------------------------------------
LnGR - I've addressed most of these points above - but as for the last part, what are you basing that on?
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
A bit of research on Niv (read: almost nothing) has me thinking he's just being bad and not scum, especially because he's right about KoolKoal's post.
HookerPunch: Do something interesting.
I said you talked about cccccc808 as an aside because you put LnGrrrR as a higher priority than him, despite that you had put more solid questions about cccccc808 than LnGrrrR into the thread. Assumptions about mindset are much less solid than the flailing cccccc808 was doing, yet you put LnGrrrR ahead of him, even claiming he is the sure lynch over it.
It's often a good play for scum to only nod at the popular wagon while pushing another. If the popular wagon is scum, you pull attention from the wagon, but still have left an avenue open for later bussing if the wagon continues. If they're town, and get mislynched, you didn't even truly participate on their wagon.
The reason I don't attach Niv to this is because the reason I find the move scummy doesn't apply to him, as he wasn't a popular wagon.
I'll share my thoughts on your more in-depth LnGrrrR post after LnGrrrR responds.
@Hookerpunch: Why are you posting nothing but active-lurking quality posts? Why are you still voting for yourself?
Either way, we're all gonna burn
adding no content to the current discussion and just shamelessly following what someone else has said has always been linked to scummy tactics. if you don't even post reasoning in your own words, then you can either go "I was on a successful lynch" if it's a good lynch, and the counter to that you can go "well, I thought it was a good lynch, but I was just following player X" when it's a bad one.
also, if you don't want to post your reasoning behind things, I'm curious what you've got to hide.
@CCCCCC: even post "Claim" I still want to know from you, how you thought that your posts that got you under suspicion in the first place were useful at all. given that a proven double voter is 95% town, I want to know some of your actual thoughts. though, I do like your vote on DCIII, though I still think fulcrum's follow up to DCIII's post is much more suspicious, since DCIII appears to legitimately believe that initial "case" was a good one, and not nonsense. but no, you at least partially calming pretty much abolishes you from the spotlight for now.
@SelesnyaNewLife:
did you like, miss the part where CCCCCCCCCCCCCCC voted twice in the post immediately preceding yours? cause like, that's big........ if you still voted him while acknowledging it, it would be different, but the fact that you completely ignored it is pretty suspect.blame it on your phone, classic.@Cantrip:: is there more to the vote on hooker than the "vote on natrisha"? or is that really it? is there nothing in this thread that you find scummier than a stock tell that isn't a tell?
@DCIII: 90% of my self vote opener is now tradition. but yes, I do also like it as a standard open, because it's a standard open. but it's because I don't want to have to deal with people over analyzing my RVS posts and me just telling them to blow themselves. I don;t think that kind of RVS tell is a tell. I won't call someone out on it, and I don;t want to have to deal with it myself. but no, if I were to try to make an RVS post that was real, it would be forced, so, i just stick to tradition (be this my first game in 2 years or not).
----------------------------
However I guess something I am willing to concede is there probably people that play this game where this is the case, and your case on DCIII kinda proves it, but I really do hate meta wagons as a whole, but the case isn't 100% meta, and especially where you point LnG's 36 where he does try to brown nose everyone that's suspicious of him instead of actually dealing with his problem at hand, is really awful, and I hadn't made the connection there upon first glance. your analysis of his 37 is pretty spot on as well.
but here's the thing as well, at the point where fulcrum jumped on to this particular wagon, it was still flimsy, and I stand by my belief that at that point LnG hadn't done nearly enough to enter suspicion. so, fulcrum still looks awful. but the best part of this, was that the wagon was initially wrong IMO, but when pressured, the target collapsed like flan in a cupboard, leading me to believe you are like 97% town yourself, regardless of how this situation plays out, because you legitimately believe that it was initially a good wagon.
-----------
so, that out of the way
@fulcrum: you still haven't actually done anything yourself, or thought for yourself, you even comment on it in you #80, but then all you feel like doing is pressuring another lurker. that post just blew my mind. think you could think for yourself sooner rather than later.
-----------
Lastly:
@HookerPunch: continue posting like that day one and you will be my Day 2 Vote. I'm not about to push a day one lurker lynch, but if that's all you plan on doing all game, I'm not even sure why you signed up........
-----------
but at this point, with CCCCCCCC being a proven double voter, and a compelling case on LnGrrrR, lets just go ahead and go with an UnVote, Vote LnGrrrR
Millionaires, I hear it's good Music (Disclaimer: lyrics not PG-13) Thanks, CC
Millionaires, I hear it's good Music (Disclaimer: lyrics not PG-13) Thanks, CC
Re: time lag, it is most likely due to having to pull the orange text off the first page. I phone post nearly 99% of the time. Also, I have been trying to provide clues to my identity in some of my games (see RTR where I crumbed jail keeper) but then I remembered that might get me modkilled so I just went with the "guests" theme.
I didn't question you because you had reasoning behind your vote. I can't really argue it other than "Nuh-uh!" Anything I say to defend myself would be WIFOMy. I have faith that as the game goes along, I will prove my towniness.
Fulcrum on the other hand just jumped on with no comment then declared others town with no reasoning. I wasn't a fan, and still am not. Fulcrum seems to be going out of her way to not question people or provide interactions.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
DC3, I would have to look up your other games for examples, but you strike me as a deliberate player, as opposed to, say, Seppel, who just goes off the rails and declares people scum (like BSG). Both playstyles work for different people, but you never struck me as the "I am SURE this person is scum; good game lets lynch him" player.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Now that you're almost certain to be town, why don't you actually give us some reasons why you think you know who the scum are? Don't just vote, help us out so we can see if you see something we don't.
Fair question. DCIII has led the charge here, not fulcrum.
How does testing for reactions automatically make someone town?
RVS analysis is pretty much the flavor of the month around here right now, so get used to it if you're planning to become a frequent player again.
This has already been called out, but this is a very suspiciously timed vote. Move SNL onto my list of scumspects.
I have only seen a scum doublevoter in one game that wasn't an Iso game, and that was a specialty (Majora's Mask) in which the ability a) was granted by an item, and b) was lost at LyLo. I think it's pretty safe to assume that c808 is town.
Well, this sounds great, except...
...you then provide us with yet another barn.
This is incredibly self-conscious. Your vote isn't OMGUS if you have a real reason for putting it down. You're basically admitting that, a) you had to formulate a "good" response to the pushes against you, and b) the vote is effectively OMGUS because you didn't really have a good reason to place it.
I also think the whole "self-conscious" tell is BS. I have seen scum post carefree, and I have seen town be careful. It could just be because I suck at reading people, and have to rely on logical inconsistencies, but I don't usually take stock in "funny RVS" unless it is not voting for someone, or overly long/explanatory (AE in some recent game for the first example, and I believe Cantripmancer for the 2nd?)
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Is this Silver Rage I see here?
Yeah, you're probably right... But that doesn't make my gut go any less paranoid whenever behavioral obvscum are pseudo-cleared by virtue of their roles. Lucian Mafia comes to head
Unvote
@Gentrip: I've asked a question in #73.
@Gentrip: I've asked a question in #73.
----------------
an aside Re: double voters.
I've seen them as non town roles a few times, but never outside of a specialty. It's been a while but I think it was one of Xyre's older specialties where carrion pigeons had a role where as the godfather, he was -2 to lynch, but had votes equal to the number of votes on him, which was really, really, really, silly. I think I've seen a couple others, but they all had restrictions of some kind, where they couldn't function on lyol situations, or they couldn't hammer with it, or they couldn't use it after a day 2 or something, and if CCCCCCC is still a functioning double voter every day, with no funny business, he's pretty much in the blue at this point.
-------------
@Dkings: I was really expecting a vote of some kind at the end of that post on someone. that's a lot of suspicion thrown around and no action. Are you really not comfortable putting a vote on someone at this point in the game?
-------------
Gentrip's 93 is pretty spot on at analyzing Lng's mindset, since he's come under suspicion, and I'm really liking the hydra atm.
-------------
@Kosa: with everything that's going on right now, you think the best course of action is an "answer my question or die" vote? you were looking good earlier, but your 92 is practically active lurker quality. got nothing useful to add?
Millionaires, I hear it's good Music (Disclaimer: lyrics not PG-13) Thanks, CC
I also never looked at the time stamp regarding SNL, and that's a pretty big disparity......
Millionaires, I hear it's good Music (Disclaimer: lyrics not PG-13) Thanks, CC
Oh i have a restriction. I just can't reveal it or I will be modkilled...
Anyways, here's my thought process on when I was trying to lynch LnG
there were three scenarios I saw.
A) LnG was scum and I could get rid of him on the first day.
B) DC3 is scum and fulcrum is his scumbuddy. However, I did not want to reveal that I knew this info. If LnG was towwn, I might have gone after them.
C) DC3 and fulcrum are not scum, neither is Lng. I am just being paranoid.
I felt like DC3 and fulcrum were scum, and I was voting with them to prove my suspicions. Now I realize that it was a poor move on my part.
CHECK OUT MY TRIBAL CUSTOM SET KREVAN
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/creativity/custom-card-creation/custom-set-creation-and/530273-krevan-the-first-set-in-a-tribal-block
In response to the first part, there was recently a Mini with a restricted town doublevoter. Marvel Madness 2... check out Wildfire393's role.
In response to the second part, I don't typically throw a lot of votes around. I'm not very strong at early-game analysis, my engines get revving once interactions start piling up. I find LnG's behavior suspect, but SNL's vote on c808 makes me cringe and I'm waiting for a response as to why he placed that vote after c808's obvious intention to double-vote.
I'm going with honest town. The fact that he openly stated he has a restriction immediately after Niv's post gives him even more towncred in my book. Taking him at his word that this is his first internet game, I don't see him willingly throwing that out, even if there is some WIFOM around it.
For those of you questioning HookerpunchingNatirasha's lurking, why aren't you putting pressure on Fulcrum? What exactly has Fulcrum done so far?
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Dat smear.
I ask a question and am ignored.
I reinforce the question and again am ignored.
What else would you suggest that I could have done to make them stop ignoring me, other than voting?
Do you know what a Silver Rage is?
--------
@ Dking: I'm also going to go with honest town as well. my comment doesn't go both ways with regards to double voting roles. scum double voters are almost exclusively restricted, but town double voting roles are nowhere near exclusively unrestricted.
--------
@LnGrrrR: so what you're telling me is you're unwilling to actually respond to the accusations against you at all. cool, if that's the case you can die now.
Millionaires, I hear it's good Music (Disclaimer: lyrics not PG-13) Thanks, CC
the question posed to you by multiple people was how is it being a phone post an explanation for you not even commenting on CCCCCC's double vote when you voted him, given that I find it highly unlikely that you didn't refresh the thread for 2 hours before posting from your phone.
Millionaires, I hear it's good Music (Disclaimer: lyrics not PG-13) Thanks, CC
Fulcrum
cccccc808
hansanator
DCIII
Miss_Lynch
KoolKoal
dkingsland967
HookerPunch
SelesnyaNewLife
Kosakosa
LnGrrrR
Niv
C6 is town for the vote and post. hans is town for, well, pretty much everything.
DCII and Miss_Lynch are likely town, DC for the close attention to detail and believing the case against LnGrrrR, and Miss_Lynch is town for the argument between Generic and Cantrip regarding LnGrrrR.
KoolKoal’s post 47 felt towny for the way it went after a very strong player and the wording “that’s silly.” His post was less so, as the wording “It's often a good play for scum to only nod at the popular wagon while pushing another,” feels like a cop out. Dkings account of his meta in 102 felt real, but I don’t really like the length of his posts or the nath’d comment. Actually, post 102 is the only reason I’m sort of town reading him. Hookerpunch doesn’t care about appearances. He’s experienced enough to do that intentionally to give off a “too scummy to be scum” vibe, but I’m willing to let him be for now.
Not sure about SNL, but from what I know of him, he shouldn't be too hard to figure out down the line.
Kosa’s started overly aggressively it post 9 and 34. It’s unnatural, and likely because he feels he has to act towny. LnGrrrR is bad for the reasons DCIII alright pointed out (though the Hunger thing could go either way).Niv shows a marked lack of curiosity about mindsets, hasn’t actually read my posts despite his attacks on me, and has wording that betrays a scummindset.
Unvote
Vote Niv
@Miss_Lynch: On the topic of the coloured votes, it's a way for me to skim easily and have something to look for. If you (Generic), or others are playing from phone and have issues with getting the code, it's fine, just understand I might miss it when I scroll through. I'm not going to be overly strict about it.
UUU Azami, Lady of Scrolls
RRR Diaochan, Artful Beauty
UR(U/R) Tibor, Lumia, & Melek (WIP)
Mafia Stats
My list is pretty much this, except Niv and Hookerpunch are swapped. And I don't really have an order for the middle 6 people, but they are in the middle. Though I doubt that SNL is scum based on his play in Llamas with Hats compared to this game.
Previous Mafia Experience:
Mafia aligned: 2/0 -100%
Town aligned: 4/3 - 57%
Kosa seems pretty town to me (although he is pretty aggressive)
apparently what I thought was scum behavior was just hans's regular playing style...
Niv does seem to be showing a bit of scum, but that could be nothing...
as for everyone else, I really have no read on you yet.
CHECK OUT MY TRIBAL CUSTOM SET KREVAN
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/creativity/custom-card-creation/custom-set-creation-and/530273-krevan-the-first-set-in-a-tribal-block
I don't really feel like spending five days arguing over stupid RVS BS.
Niv, I'm not going to "defend" myself, because it's all based off a BS RVS post, and the subsequent case is based off me trying to "defend" an RVS post.
Feel free to take this post however you want. But I highly suggest that, if you are town, you start looking at other people. It's pretty obvious that there are scum leaning towards my lynch because it's starting to look "easy".
Or you can just be like "omg this post proves he is scum" and I can just screw over town, which is fine for me if town wants to be this dumb and not question why everyone is jumping on my wagon. Your call.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
You don't want to be lynched? Then start being useful.
Completely disagree on the Kosa read. He asked a question, didn't get an answer, then voted to show he was serious. Why people think that is "overly aggressive" makes no sense to me. I hate when people don't answer direct questions from me, and find avoiding questions tends to generally come more from scum than town.
Koal and SNL need to post more.
DKing noticing that SNL's name was longer than his felt towny to me, but it's just a gut read; couldn't explain why it sounds townie.
Generic sounds town; I have trouble reading Cantrip.
Dc3 is likely town, as he is pushing conversation and interactions.
Niv is a bit wishy-washy; I want him to post more so I can get a better idea of him as a player.
Hans I need to see more from. He usually pulls ridiculous gambits as town in the games I have played/read... Not sure if the opening "claim" call is an example of that or not.
HookerpunchingNatirasha has to post more, obviously.
And this post really does nothing for me. An unprompted reads list, with no questions towards others until I flailed some more. Ask more questions, preferably of people that aren't me. I think I have done a good deal of interacting with everyone, and I would like to see some crossfire elsewhere. It's pretty hard to evaluate my own responses.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
SNL having a poor grasp of the game-state is just standard play for him, regardless of his alignment.
I still find DCIII's reasoning on LnGrrrR to be on the weak side (except for where DC said LnGrrrR seemed to be trying to defuse the situation, I could see that).
like lngrrrr mildly
need generic to talk to cantrpoman
where be scum
KoolKoal because he's a bad guy prob.
Still hasn't read anything really.
Either way, we're all gonna burn
@LnGr - your post #114 dismisses the case against you by saying you'd be arguing over "stupid RVS BS" but there's more to the case than that. Your RVS play was what triggered my initial vote on you but your reactions to the pressure are also a big part of it and the fact that the pressure came from RVS initially doesn't matter with regard to that aspect of the case. You're trying to handwave all of it into the RVS bucket.
Your T/S list has everyone (other than fulcrum) either as feeling town or needing players to post more. If you think it's obvious that there are scum leaning toward your lynch because it's starting to look easy then who do you think those players are other than fulcrum and why? If you don't know, then why aren't you doing more to engage with those players who have expressed suspicion of you to try to figure it out? On one hand you say that it's obvious that scum are leaning toward lynching you - but on the other hand you only seem to have one scumspect and you aren't pressing anyone else.
This part above, especially, is not a town mindset. You're saying that you're fine screwing over town because they're not questioning why everyone is jumping on your wagon. There were three votes on you at this point with some others expressing suspicion and the only player that you yourself have pushed with any kind of pressure is fulcrum. So how is everyone else being dumb for not questioning the people suspecting you when you haven't done the same? If you were Town, I wouldn't expect you to be so resigned or resort to fear mongering prior to putting much more effort into hunting the scum you feel are so clearly pushing you. You said that you needed to see more from five people on your T/S list but you haven't done anything about it and yet you're indignant that others haven't and think you're scum?
It feels like you're lost on where to go from here and are defaulting to fear mongering and insults - and you seem legit angry. Your play has a "caught for the wrong reasons," attitude about it.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
@6Cs - Please respond to my questions in #77. Also, for #113 why do you feel the way you do about Lng, myself, Kosa, and Niv?
@fulcrum - Can you elaborate on the last two points of your Niv read (what makes you think he hasn't read your posts and what wording betrays a scum mindset)? If you are still scum reading LnGr then why move your vote to Niv right now?
@HP - What do you mean by "still hasn't read anything really" - is that in relation to yourself or KoolKoal? What are your reasons for the KoolKoal suspicion?
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
DC3, you can say stuff like, "That's not a town mindset" all you want, but you don't know for sure until I flip town/scum. So if you lynch me and I flip town, does it suddenly become a "town" mindset? Your idea of what is and isn't town mindset isn't the end-all, be-all.
And no, it's not caught for the wrong reasons. It's "this town is dumb and I can't convince this dumb town to stop being dumb". What is this "awesome case" on me? An RVS post that people don't like, and a "defense" of said RvS post that people don't like because I shouldn't have to be defending against this case because it's all meta garbage. Which is funny because I am pretty sure there are people in this game who have seen me fila il in other games as town when I'm frustrated but no one is mentioning it. (Gen, you have seen it in Majora. And there was another game recent where I was mislynched nearly the same way, with Seppel being the only one smart enough to see the push. I bieve that was the game where I asked for more time and everyone kept saying my posts were "useless".)
If there is more to the case than RVS + "bad reaction" then spell it out easily for me. I can't defend the "bad reaction" because, spoiler, I DONT THINK IT WAS A BAD REACTION.
Re: who is scum, are you sure you are actually reading my posts DC3? I just said I have been crap at reading people lately, and I also said I have trouble reading while getting attacked. If I had to guess, it would be Fulcrum, Niv and probably someone I currently see as townie. It is obvious that scum is on me because a) I know I am town and B) a lot of people are expressing willingness to lynch. Considering that the odds of everyone distrusting me being only town is slim to none, it's pretty easy to state that there are scum on my wagon. It's obviously much harder to figure out which ones.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Do you think the Columbia/Rapture split is flavor only or gameplay affecting?
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
I see lots of and yet I don't see you addressing my point: I wanted an answer and Gentrip was ignoring me. What could I have done other than vote? Keep repeating the question? Let it go?
You know what is even more telling? Your first sentence. You say you don't know what Silver Rage is, and yet, in your last post to me, you say:
If you didn't know what I was talking about, then why didn't you ask what it was instead of going with a veiled discredit? How can you possibly believe that I have nothing useful to add if 1) you don't even know what I'm talking about and 2) you are more interested in smearing than figuring me out?
Oh right: you already have people figured out.
Here, have this noose.
Unvote
Vote Niv
Silver Rage is a scumtell that was first noticed by Seppel in this post by Arianrhod (formely SilverSihhe):
It shows how scum dislike not being able to post something that would make them appear townier because someone else already did. Like this:
This post is a textbook case of Silver Rage, aggravated by the fact that you weren't aware of it. It doesn't directly add anything to the game bar a /barn, but it allows us to get an insight of your mindset at the time: annoyance for not being able to get townie points by calling fulcrum out on her RVS vote because you thought cccc's behavior would prove a better chance at it... but in the end, it didn't.
You're scum with Niv. Consider my vote to be on you as well.
Prod Checks will begin tomorrow morning.
UUU Azami, Lady of Scrolls
RRR Diaochan, Artful Beauty
UR(U/R) Tibor, Lumia, & Melek (WIP)
Mafia Stats
I think that it is just for flavor purposes. I originally thought that it would be a good idea to mass claim locations just to see if there were any patterns that we could use to our advantage. However, I realized that that might infringe the rule against hinting at your true character. It would be quite awful if the mod modkilled every player in the game...
Previous Mafia Experience:
Mafia aligned: 2/0 -100%
Town aligned: 4/3 - 57%
Either way, we're all gonna burn
if you really didn't think it was implied that I found it scummy. I'm also by far not the only one pushing you for it, and since you're telling me that wasn't the reason you didn't read the thread, I'm not sure what was. It's not a non issue, and you're dismissing the suspicion and responding with a preemptive OMGUS vote, since because I didn't vote you, because there a bigger fish to fry atm. classic.
---------
@Fulcrum: Except I have been reading your posts, I've been comenting on your posts, I've found you scummy this whole game, and I've had my vote on you most of this game, but ok, you don't like the way I play, and my writing style comes across as scummy. I'm sorry, but that's just the way I play. here's the link to my most recent game (abet 2 years ago I have not played a complete game of mafia since). not much I can say, but that's just how I post and if you don't like it, that's fine, but it is what it is.
---------
@LnGrrrR: if you actually think the entirety of the case on you was because of the RVS bull*****, you clearly didn't read the case at all. your 114 is honestly one of the worst posts I've ever seen. defeatism, calling the town idiots, threating the town, and calling your own lynch an easy lynch. if it looks like a fish and tastes like a fish, it probably is a fish. You find DCIII town, but you're unwilling to even read or properly respond to his case on you, by calling him, and anyone else who is going with it an idiot. classic. your scumlist also contains no scum, as was pointed out by DCIII as well. hmmmmmmmm you're totally helping the town win this game......... your continued defeatist attitude is really not helping your case in my mind.
---------
@Kosa: or, I didn't put 2 + 2 together that silver rage meant something. I've gone since 2006~ on this site, and I've never heard the term and just assumed it didn't mean anything that meant anything. you call it a veiled discredit, I call it a blatant discredit. you made a post that I felt didn't contribute anything, and I called you out on it. rather than explain to me, who hasn't been around for ages, that your post did mean something, you call me out for smearing you. I'm more than willing to retract an inaccurate statement, but rather than tell me my statement was inaccurate, you just went ahead and called it a smear. this is a two way street Mr. KosaKosa, and everything you just voted me for, you did in your thought process to vote for me. It was not textbook when I was playing, why should I have assumed it was anything now?
so, sir, I ask you the same question that you just asked me: are you more interested in smearing me than figuring me out?
also of note on theory: having never heard of this scum tell before, upon first glance it appears 100% WIFOM. both town and scum want town cred, how is trying to explain past mindset like that scummy, when town has an equal motivation to make such a post.
----------
@HookerPunch: why are you still voting yourself and do you ever plan on posting one real, thought out paragraph of content in a post, ever? from a little looking around, I can see you're originally from MafiaScum (the website). care to link me a single post you've ever made with more than one paragraph, of thought out content, possibly a read of some kind, or even better you forming a case on someone. I want proof that you're at least willing to be useful at some point in this game.
Millionaires, I hear it's good Music (Disclaimer: lyrics not PG-13) Thanks, CC
Meanwhile, you talk about horrible posts, look at yours above. You don't give credit to any attack on you, and instead attack the attacker. For instance, when Kosa mentioned Silver Rage, why would you just assume he was making something up? Why wouldn't you just ask him what it meant? And fwiw, we have seen that tell be effective in a few games. In fact, I think Cantrip did it in Apocalypse mafia? ( Cantrip, feel free to confirm.)
Also, your attack on my list is somewhat misrep'd; I obviously had fulcrum as scum but figured it was obvious so didn't put him on the list.
Regarding people jumping on my wagon (and not necessarily with just votes, but indications of willingness to vote), do you think everyone who put me low on their lists was town?
Finally, if you want me to respond to the case, reword it. Put it down in bullet format/fashion. Or come up with your own case/words.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
No, I will likely never wall either. I just don't.
Either way, we're all gonna burn
Normally, I try not to quote things out of context, but damn if this doesn't like something a pissed off scum would say to a scummate who's going down.