Before answering this, I should inform you I'm not actually new. I've got quite a few games under my belt. But my answer is that I wasn't intending to persue him just then. I changed my mind due to his fluff/trying to link us when he flips scum.
Yeah, I got that, but even veterans can make newbie mistakes on occasion. Why weren't you interested in pursuing him if you approved of the pressure and weren't pursuing anyone else?
Anyway, I did it to make the vote a bit more aggressive and to give off a “That belonged in a scum qt, so she probably doesn’t have one” vibe.
So your intent was to insert fake aggressiveness into the post? And to specifially tailor your post to make people think that you don't have access to the scumchat? Did you literally just admit to attempting to fake being town?
No. Part of my job as town to avoid being a mislynch being looking town. That means that went I say things they generally have the dual purposes of scumhunting and making me look town. Is that scummy?
Even you appear to be abandoning your own case now cantrip, favouring the name calling instead.
No, I stand behind the two behavioral points. Now I'm just regretting calling you out so early; I should have given you a bit more rope to hang yourself with.
Quote from Generic »
You don't like me, join the others voting for me for that sole reason. Just makes the mislynch more laughable.
I despise that fearmongering is part of your town game.
Quote from Generic »
I'm holding my vote where it is. You want to continue with the ever crumbling push on me speak to those you need a vote from, not me, cos I have nothing more to say to you. I've done more to get votes for my wagon than you have managed... That's pathetic.
You wouldn't have any votes were it not for me! But you're right. I thought my points were stronger than they're being received as, and now you're on guard.
How certain would you say your read on Karn is? 50%? 75%?
This was complete RVS; why would you think otherwise?
I already said that the mindset behind "This vote isn't moving" isn't likely a townie one, even in jest. It shows an inherent aggressiveness, which CAN be a townie response if it's consistent... but directly following you ask us to be patient for the next half the game, and hold off on doing anything relevant,. That's the opposite of what I would expect.
Everything up to here was RVS.
Rereading it, I see it as just that. Fine.
I was referring to the way I caught heat in Apocalypse, which is what the situation reminded me of. AE made an RVS post w/out a vote; I expressed suspicion, but didn’t vote, Proph called us both out.
Ok. But it's your word choice I was questioning here, as well as the tone of it. You make a quick, definate statement that appears intended to make someone back off. The fact that you didn't specify that you had a game in mind is odd too. If you had that game in mind when you were making the case that there was a precident, why not specify then?
I was mostly amused at the idea.
I guess I can see that mindset behind that being possible.
I was already suspicious of the way Generic had followed Karn onto the start of my wagon, so his reasoning (“I <3 Cantrip Wagons”) was suspect.
That doesn't address the fact that you didn't ask the questions that I would have expected you to. I'm not seeing a logical train between "why do you like wagons on me?" and determination of alignment of that person. It also doesn't actually express suspicion of Generic, which is another thing I would have expected if what you're saying is true.
No, if he thought for some reason that I was an age greater or less than I am, it could explain some of his responses.
How would that have affected any of his responses? Be specific, please.
You don't have to reveal the person behind the gimmick punster, but can you just confirm whether or not we have played in a mafia game before together ?
It was mostly in reference to my point of you linking us should you flip scum; Given that, your response is extremely lackluster. If you were attempting to tell me to hold off asking those questions, then you should have done that instead of saying things about a script or whatever. In fact, why did you assume I'd understand what you were talking about at all? It wasn't obvious.
That is far from the point. People are confident when they think they're right. They can certainly be wrong and be confident. What's more important here is that you don't like that he's showing so much self-confidence in that post. Why take offense to the self-confidence instead of pointing out that he's mistaken? Do you think he should know he's wrong?
No offense to Karn, but I think if I had pulled scum with him again this soon, I would have replaced out in my first post.
I doubt that you would be so selfish to throw the game for scum in such a manner because you didn't want to be scum with Karn again. And as such, this comment by you makes no sense to me from a town perspective. It's full of WIFOM and seeks only to self-meta/self-clear. Now, would you like some more rope, or can you make a noose out of what you already have?
Yeah, I got that, but even veterans can make newbie mistakes on occasion. Why weren't you interested in pursuing him if you approved of the pressure and weren't pursuing anyone else?
At that point, I wasn't as confident as I would have liked that he was scum, but he was being scummy, so pressure was a good thing. That, and pressure tends to help a lot in scumhunting.
:/ Your post was all about how other people perceived Cantrip ("I don't see how anyone"), not about your opinions of him. Why was that?
My opinion should have been obvious regarding my opinion. His fluffiness is scummy. The "I don't see how anyone" was more annoyance that more people weren't seeing what I was seeing.
Can you list a few of your games for me, fulcrum?
No. Part of my job as town to avoid being a mislynch being looking town. That means that went I say things they generally have the dual purposes of scumhunting and making me look town. Is that scummy?
Very much so, yes. You think your job as town is to... pretend being town? No. A thousand times no. Aside from how blatantly self-conscious this is, town does not have to pretend to be their own alignment. Especially under no pressure.
Yeah, I got that, but even veterans can make newbie mistakes on occasion. Why weren't you interested in pursuing him if you approved of the pressure and weren't pursuing anyone else?
At that point, I wasn't as confident as I would have liked that he was scum, but he was being scummy, so pressure was a good thing. That, and pressure tends to help a lot in scumhunting.
That's not an answer. Why not add to the pressure?
:/ Your post was all about how other people perceived Cantrip ("I don't see how anyone"), not about your opinions of him. Why was that?
My opinion should have been obvious regarding my opinion. His fluffiness is scummy. The "I don't see how anyone" was more annoyance that more people weren't seeing what I was seeing.
Can you list a few of your games for me, fulcrum?
You're missing the point. You were more concerned with the general perception of Cantrip than his actual scumminess. Cantrip was being run up. Who precisely were you annoyed at?
On this site, there's WWII, Hayate, Pleasantville and Winterfell. I don't really feel like sharing the rest.
No. Part of my job as town to avoid being a mislynch being looking town. That means that went I say things they generally have the dual purposes of scumhunting and making me look town. Is that scummy?
Very much so, yes. You think your job as town is to... pretend being town? No. A thousand times no. Aside from how blatantly self-conscious this is, town does not have to pretend to be their own alignment. Especially under no pressure.
You're twisting my words. Townies have two jobs: lynching scum and not getting lynched themselves. Let me rephrase my question. Is it scummy that I am openly explaining that goal and part of my methods?
Cantrip's 247 response: This was complete RVS; why would you think otherwise?
I already said that the mindset behind "This vote isn't moving" isn't likely a townie one, even in jest. It shows an inherent aggressiveness, which CAN be a townie response if it's consistent... but directly following you ask us to be patient for the next half the game, and hold off on doing anything relevant,. That's the opposite of what I would expect.
It was RVS.
Quote from PP »
I was referring to the way I caught heat in Apocalypse, which is what the situation reminded me of. AE made an RVS post w/out a vote; I expressed suspicion, but didn’t vote, Proph called us both out.
Ok. But it's your word choice I was questioning here, as well as the tone of it. You make a quick, definate statement that appears intended to make someone back off. The fact that you didn't specify that you had a game in mind is odd too. If you had that game in mind when you were making the case that there was a precident, why not specify then?
I expected someone to ask me sooner. I've already established that I was looking for reactions; keeping things a bit vague helps.
Quote from PP »
I was already suspicious of the way Generic had followed Karn onto the start of my wagon, so his reasoning (“I <3 Cantrip Wagons”) was suspect.
That doesn't address the fact that you didn't ask the questions that I would have expected you to. I'm not seeing a logical train between "why do you like wagons on me?" and determination of alignment of that person. It also doesn't actually express suspicion of Generic, which is another thing I would have expected if what you're saying is true.
I was attempting to lock Generic into being more specific. Expressing suspicion would put Generic more on guard and taint the response.
Quote from PP »
No, if he thought for some reason that I was an age greater or less than I am, it could explain some of his responses.
How would that have affected any of his responses? Be specific, please.
The way he stated it ("young Cantrip") made me wonder how old he thought I was. If he thought I was a teenager, for instance, he might think he could get away with #33 without me objecting.
It was mostly in reference to my point of you linking us should you flip scum; Given that, your response is extremely lackluster. If you were attempting to tell me to hold off asking those questions, then you should have done that instead of saying things about a script or whatever. In fact, why did you assume I'd understand what you were talking about at all? It wasn't obvious.
I thought that it would be clear. I was also somewhat still in an RVS mindset.
That is far from the point. People are confident when they think they're right. They can certainly be wrong and be confident. What's more important here is that you don't like that he's showing so much self-confidence in that post. Why take offense to the self-confidence instead of pointing out that he's mistaken? Do you think he should know he's wrong?
If he's scum, then yes, he's either aware that he's making false assertions, or the confidence comes in part from bussing. I also think it's incredible hubris to think you can call the scumteam that early in the game. Extreme confidence on a single read I could buy, but all three?
No offense to Karn, but I think if I had pulled scum with him again this soon, I would have replaced out in my first post.
I doubt that you would be so selfish to throw the game for scum in such a manner because you didn't want to be scum with Karn again. And as such, this comment by you makes no sense to me from a town perspective. It's full of WIFOM and seeks only to self-meta/self-clear. Now, would you like some more rope, or can you make a noose out of what you already have?
I wouldn't have thrown the game; I would have politely indicated--in my first post, mind you--that I had real life issues come up and had to replace out. My replacement would have had the same chance as I had. And WIFOM or not, it's the truth. I was really surprised that we pulled a win out of Return to Ravnica, and I wouldn't be ready for that kind of stress this soon again.
That's not an answer. Why not add to the pressure?
I just said: I wasn't confident enough in my read on him. But his play was scummy.
You're missing the point. You were more concerned with the general perception of Cantrip than his actual scumminess. Cantrip was being run up. Who precisely were you annoyed at?
No I wasn't. That's not what I said at all. And I was annoyed at pretty much everyone not seeing Cantrip's scumminess. Seppel comes to mind.
You're twisting my words. Townies have two jobs: lynching scum and not getting lynched themselves. Let me rephrase my question. Is it scummy that I am openly explaining that goal and part of my methods?
I'm not actually. You said "Part of my job as town to avoid being a mislynch [by] looking town." Let me reiterate: looking town. Not being town.
Is it scummy that you're openly explaining that? No. It's null. But the fact that you're doing it is very scummy, and you don't get bonus points for explaining yourself.
Also, regarding "murder": I don't think it necessarily was indicative of scum. Hence why I didn't vote you for it. I think it's something that *could* be seen to be indicative of scum, though, which is why Daegen and Cantrip are on you. Seems you're a mite touchy over it, though. I'm curious as to why my considering of it is more worthy of your attention than the two people actually voting you over it though.
If Wildfire is scum, he's plainly stating that he knows Daegen and Cantrip were pursuing you exactly because the whole "murder" thing could be seen to be indicative of scum, therefore not fabricating their reads. In other words, he's admitting that Daegen and Cantrip were legitimely believing you could be scum.
Of course, if he's town then this whole point is moot.
Now, please enlighten me as to:
1) How the fact that I failed to correlate your question to my statement denotes a scum mindset (especially considering that the main reason behind my vote was the vibe of his response entirely, not the "unaligned pairing" specifically), and:
2) Occam. Looking in retrospect, I was the second vote on Wildfire. My vote came in when he had virtually zero pressure on bar yours, and your case could simply fail to get steam rolling since we were completely scattered over a plethora of scum suspects. You can go ahead and concote a wild theory about how I "panicked and attempted to cash in towncred", but apply Occam to it comparing to what really happened and you'll see how fast it crumbles.
Apologies for my disappearance, this weekend was extremely busy. If people have outstanding questions for me, please ask them.
The fact that a Generic wagon is gaining traction is quite interesting. I've literally never seen that happen in the three games I've played with him.
I'm still not liking Burning Earth here, though. His normal frenetic and often spammy play is completely absent. He's managed to give even less of a reason for his reads than usual (see his Generic vote above). Vote Burning_Earth
Any response to my last rebuttal? Or are you just going to admit to being scum already?
Why is the Generic wagon interesting? Day 1 Generic wagons are close to being a Mafia Law.
@ Generic: I did post a few pages back that I'd be semi-V/LA, for the record.
I gave up on responding to your rebuttals, because whatever I said you just repeated the same "case" you've got on me, which just consists of saying I'm scummy for reaffirming my vote, over and over again.
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Apologies for my disappearance, this weekend was extremely busy. If people have outstanding questions for me, please ask them.
The fact that a Generic wagon is gaining traction is quite interesting. I've literally never seen that happen in the three games I've played with him.
I'm still not liking Burning Earth here, though. His normal frenetic and often spammy play is completely absent. He's managed to give even less of a reason for his reads than usual (see his Generic vote above). Vote Burning_Earth
Any response to my last rebuttal? Or are you just going to admit to being scum already?
Why is the Generic wagon interesting? Day 1 Generic wagons are close to being a Mafia Law.
@ Generic: I did post a few pages back that I'd be semi-V/LA, for the record.
I gave up on responding to your rebuttals, because whatever I said you just repeated the same "case" you've got on me, which just consists of saying I'm scummy for reaffirming my vote, over and over again.
I'll take that as a yes.
Now that we've settled that point, could you explain what you've found scummy from me so far? Given I am one of your suspects and all.
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I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
Apologies for my disappearance, this weekend was extremely busy. If people have outstanding questions for me, please ask them.
The fact that a Generic wagon is gaining traction is quite interesting. I've literally never seen that happen in the three games I've played with him.
I'm still not liking Burning Earth here, though. His normal frenetic and often spammy play is completely absent. He's managed to give even less of a reason for his reads than usual (see his Generic vote above). Vote Burning_Earth
Any response to my last rebuttal? Or are you just going to admit to being scum already?
Why is the Generic wagon interesting? Day 1 Generic wagons are close to being a Mafia Law.
@ Generic: I did post a few pages back that I'd be semi-V/LA, for the record.
I gave up on responding to your rebuttals, because whatever I said you just repeated the same "case" you've got on me, which just consists of saying I'm scummy for reaffirming my vote, over and over again.
I'll take that as a yes.
Now that we've settled that point, could you explain what you've found scummy from me so far? Given I am one of your suspects and all.
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I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
I've seen Generic do the whole "lynch me and let the player pressuring me take the blunt tomorrow" attitude as town. He can do it as scum but it's hardly alignment indicative in this case.
Yeah, I've experienced his "lynch me as town" rant before, and I reread his posts in Star Wars (scum), and he wasn't nearly as "lynch me!!111!"
So that would be a point towards this being town!Generic right?
Quote from Antny »
I don't see an issue. He asked for a votecount and then unvoted after it. There was a gap of an hour and a half. It's not Generic could have know you were gonna post in that time.
Wait, what? I did post in that time, and I know he saw my post because he responded to the question I posed to him in that post. My concern is that he was conveniently vague in his mentioning the L-2, and then used a game standard ("too early for a claim") to back off.[/quote]
Yes but my point is that it's not as Generic knows your posting schedule. You can't say he knew you were going to post. And it's very difficult to be sure what Generic is thinking most of the time anyway.
Quote from Antny »
Anyway if Generic has already said he would unvote if you were at L-2 it's fair to expect that a player would hold off claiming.
Where did he say that before I refused to claim?
Fair enough he didn't say that, I just assumed. But really when a point comes down to people's own interpretations it's probably better to stick to other points. Which is why I would have liked more than three points for this case.
Quote from Antny »
Can you requote any unanswered question for me. Cheers.
@Antny: The question from 158 was "Why did you think it was “fake meta reading”?"
I didn't feel there was enough posting in the thread to really metaread Generic. It seemed too early and felt too forced.
Deus Ex: Not considered. Not only was he serial killer, he was posting in a hydra with Rhand, and Rhand posted first.
I got to the end of page 1 and wanted to vote for rodemy and proph.
By page 2 rodemy leapt out as outstanding first choice because he is simply crumbling under the small amount of pressure created.
I will finish off the last few pages now but i wanted to place this as a marker in case work draws my attention away.
I can confirm seppels claim as I'm his imaginary friend, Mr snuffleupagus.
And since I'm imaginary I am bulletproof and lynchproof I'm afraid. vote sir karn
For idiocy.
Still semi v/la which I had informed Proph of but he didn't feel the need to mention in the game, so thanks for that hydra buddy.
Has a skim, I don't know why people aren't keen to test this supposed claim of an investigation, on the proviso that we lynch the liar if they flip town.
Daegan did appear to slip with the 'mislynch' comment however so I will have to properly assess it when I get to read it all.
Not digging tim Scott either, you guys seem to have a game plan of slapping everyone and since I'm not bothering wih emo generic in my last couple of games here I won't be indulging you guys. I might consider ignoring you in fact, see what that does for my sanity
Other than that, whoever voted for me in RVS over something so overused regarding me username... Boring.
Toodles.
Iso, already you have my back up because I've seen this before with you.
Jey just made a post wherby she tried to lay down foundations for taking the fierce deity mask, which although I have absolutely no idea about the game by the reactions of others in this game seems like this is a big deal mask, and also makes some very forced 'oops, missed that rule' posts and you clear her as town?
I agreed with your issues with asension though, and can someone (preferably lizard) please explain that planned idea of giving the second scummiest player a vig shot to use cos that made no sense to me at all.
So, yeah, I don't remember what it was that I found mildly suggestive about those other than that none of them feel fractured like the one in this game. Could that be because Generic is "back in his own skin"? Yeah, I guess. It just felt like he was rambling, thus nervous.
[/quote]
Well if you have nothing, I have nothing really to add then. Not lining up with posts he's made as scum or town doesn't help us.
Also, regarding "murder": I don't think it necessarily was indicative of scum. Hence why I didn't vote you for it. [b]I think it's something that *could* be seen to be indicative of scum, though, which is why Daegen and Cantrip are on you.[/b] Seems you're a mite touchy over it, though. I'm curious as to why my considering of it is more worthy of your attention than the two people actually voting you over it though.
If Wildfire is scum, he's plainly stating that he knows Daegen and Cantrip were pursuing you exactly because the whole "murder" thing could be seen to be indicative of scum, therefore not fabricating their reads. In other words, he's admitting that Daegen and Cantrip were legitimely believing you could be scum.
Of course, if he's town then this whole point is moot.
Baseless speculation based on flips that haven't happened.
Also, regarding "murder": I don't think it necessarily was indicative of scum. Hence why I didn't vote you for it. I think it's something that *could* be seen to be indicative of scum, though, which is why Daegen and Cantrip are on you. Seems you're a mite touchy over it, though. I'm curious as to why my considering of it is more worthy of your attention than the two people actually voting you over it though.
If Wildfire is scum, he's plainly stating that he knows Daegen and Cantrip were pursuing you exactly because the whole "murder" thing could be seen to be indicative of scum, therefore not fabricating their reads. In other words, he's admitting that Daegen and Cantrip were legitimely believing you could be scum.
Of course, if he's town then this whole point is moot.
Is it possible that that statement would come from town?
I've seen Generic do the whole "lynch me and let the player pressuring me take the blunt tomorrow" attitude as town. He can do it as scum but it's hardly alignment indicative in this case.
Yeah, I've experienced his "lynch me as town" rant before, and I reread his posts in Star Wars (scum), and he wasn't nearly as "lynch me!!111!"
So that would be a point towards this being town!Generic right?
Possibly, but I haven't done the meta research to see if he does this in other scum games (I don't know if Star Wars is normal, given that I copped him and called him out on it).
Quote from Antny »
Quote from Cantripmancer »
Quote from Antny »
I don't see an issue. He asked for a votecount and then unvoted after it. There was a gap of an hour and a half. It's not Generic could have know you were gonna post in that time.
Wait, what? I did post in that time, and I know he saw my post because he responded to the question I posed to him in that post. My concern is that he was conveniently vague in his mentioning the L-2, and then used a game standard ("too early for a claim") to back off.
Yes but my point is that it's not as Generic knows your posting schedule. You can't say he knew you were going to post. And it's very difficult to be sure what Generic is thinking most of the time anyway.
I don't understand. I didn't say he knew I was going to post. I said that he backed off after I made a post that made multiple people back off, but he said he had other reasons for backing off...reasons that didn't feel like they made sense with his "L-2" post. Are you handwaving the argument with that last line?
Quote Fail, so you get bullets:
• Fair enough he didn't say that, I just assumed. But really when a point comes down to people's own interpretations it's probably better to stick to other points. Which is why I would have liked more than three points for this case. This game is all about people's interpretations. And I'd have like more than three points, too, but I saw scummy behavior and I ran with it.
• I didn't feel there was enough posting in the thread to really metaread Generic. It seemed too early and felt too forced. Knowing that I was only scrutinizing his opening posts, does that make more sense?
I was the only one and I wasn't Ben listening to you.
First, I don't even know how one 'Ben listens'. ;p
Second, nice misrep. My exact words were (emphasis added) "I said that he backed off after I made a post that made multiple people back off..." not "everyone".
Third, you were the only one? How about Wildfire in 125 or iRebel in 155 (his first post after I refused to claim), where he specifies that he's unvoting because of how I handled myself in 114?
Who else besides Karn do you suspect of being scum?
I was the only one and I wasn't Ben listening to you. I will see how accurate my reads are with sir karn and then I will assess or reassess from there.
I want a reads list from burning earth, wildfire and kosa. If that's not too much trouble gentlemen.
Second the request for lists from BE and Wildfire. Oh and Wildfire, you should include an explanation of what you found scummy from me. Don't think I'm letting you get out of that.
BE, my patience is wearing incredibly thin.
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I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
And considering I said I was done with you for the day be glad I decided to keep bothering with you. I don't say that arrogantly... Well actually yes I do... But you seem keen to keep engaging with me when you clearly know where I stand and you think I'm scum (with no actual reason that stands up under scrutiny). So why do you are what I have to say?
If t's together more votes on me, I already offered to be lynched. And you just left my wagon.
1) Moving my vote doesn't mean I've left your wagon. My vote is a tool that I will use as I see fit.
2) Asking questions and evaluating responses are the only other tools I have; saying that you're going to remove yourself from that equation is anti-town.
Quote from Generic »
If it's cos you value my opinion... Bless you. Wish you weren't likely scum otherwise I would have townblocked this mofo up with you and made scum ***** themselves
I value your opinion if you're town. If you're scum, I value your interaction. Which mofo do you refer to?
I'll stop here. The very first word of your smear denotes how much you've read into my argument.
@Cantrip: from the top of my head, fulcrum cased wildfire, his responses was bad, and people started plowing up.
@Generic:
I like Cantrip and fulcrum.
I kinda like Anthy.
I'm indifferent towards Seppel, Daegan and iRebel.
I don't like Burning_Earth, Sir Karn and Paper_Punster.
I hate Generic and Wildfire.
Not triple H either. But this here game we are arguing in.
What's triple H?
Quote from Generic »
As for not havig left my wagon... Lol. You are a joker.
My vote wasn't doing anything on you. If it can be used to make BE respond, so much the better, and then I can leave my vote or change it as appropriate.
@Kosa: That was less than I was hoping for. Can you at least reaffirm why you're voting him?
@Cantrip: Because I like fulcrum' case, especially her point on Wildfire's vote reaffirmation, and dislike his response, especially the passive-aggressiveness of the last sentence.
I'd also gladly vote either Generic or B_E right now.
I don't feel like building a case or fighting anyone right now. If this bothers multiple people I can replace out. But I will likely be up for it again soon.
As for right now, I'll take the most obvious scum that I don't need to build a case on.
I reread Wildfire. Things that stand out:
99: Attacks me, but agrees on a point against the player I'm attacking.
125: Comment about finding a more fitting place for his vote is a bit self-conscious.
147: I'm not really seeing the nervousness, but I do agree that the last line's passive-aggressive.
153: His t/s list sounds sincere (was he the first one to call BE out on low post counts?), with the exception of the Generic read, which feels off. If BE flips scum, I'd be less suspicious of Wildfire; if Generic flips scum, I'd be more suspicious of Wildfire.
(Aside: iRebel starts 155 off with commenting on BE's lack of activity, as though he's the first one to mention it, when Wildfire just talked about it two posts prior. Might indicate that iRebel isn't reading the thread.)
163: Sounds sincere.
179: More sincerity in response to iRebel, and scumhunting.
195 & 198: Odd interactions with Generic.
264: Doesn't even comment on my case on Generic, but finds it interesting that a Generic wagon is gaining traction...but it wasn't really gaining traction. The general response seemed to be "meh". Starts a push on BE.
So I guess I'm still torn. Many of his responses seem to be sincere, but several of them are off. One of the biggest points from iRebel--the vote reaffirmation--I didn't see any problem with (other than me being the object of Wildfire's suspicions). I like that if Wildfire flips scum, I think it lends to Generic being scum (and if I can only catch Generic through his scumbuddies plays, I'll take what I can get), but I don't think there's enough of a connection demonstrated between the two that Wildfire makes a good information lynch.
@Generic: Will you please answer my question? How certain are you that Karn is scum?
Also, my interactions with Generic are screwy because I literally cannot trust myself to read him anymore. He was in both of my most recently-completed games. In both, I had towncleared him early on. In both, he was scum (well, SK in one, Scum in the other, but both were anti-town).
For some reason, his posts tend to ooze some kind of charismatic logic that makes me want to follow them.
Though actually, I haven't seen that too much here.
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By the way guys, changing your mind in mafia is scummy. So if one of your scumspects does something that makes you think they're town, don't let the rest of the game know, otherwise you look like scum. It's much townier to stick to your original thoughts and push what you now believe to be a mislynch.
Just thought I'd help spread some good mafia theory.
Possibly, but I haven't done the meta research to see if he does this in other scum games (I don't know if Star Wars is normal, given that I copped him and called him out on it).
I could make a dozen sarcastic references about fake meta reading but frankly I think the point is obvious.
Quote from Cantripmancer »
I don't understand. I didn't say he knew I was going to post. I said that he backed off after I made a post that made multiple people back off, but he said he had other reasons for backing off...reasons that didn't feel like they made sense with his "L-2" post. Are you handwaving the argument with that last line?
Yeah but the point is that it's hardly relevent to Generic's thinking that you posted in that time. I'm not going to press further cause I feel we losing the point.
Also Generic was the first to leave the wagon right? So why is it scummier to be first off compared to people who left after Generic?
• Fair enough he didn't say that, I just assumed. But really when a point comes down to people's own interpretations it's probably better to stick to other points. Which is why I would have liked more than three points for this case. [b]This game is all about people's interpretations. And I'd have like more than three points, too, but I saw scummy behavior and I ran with it.[/b]
OK let's ignore Generic for a second. Who else is on your radar. How much of a case do you have against those people?
• I didn't feel there was enough posting in the thread to really metaread Generic. It seemed too early and felt too forced. [b]Knowing that I was only scrutinizing his opening posts, does that make more sense?[/b]
It makes more sense, but I remain sceptical that you really thought you could hit scum off meta based only a few rvs posts.
[quote from="Generic »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/outside-magic/mafia/558732-87-night-mafia-night-1-nocturne?comment=301"]The mofo in question is the game.
Not triple H either. But this here game we are arguing in.
If Cantrip aint being lynched I guess I gotta pick a new wagon. I kinda prefer BE over Wildfire right now save the fact Cantrip is at the front of the line.... **** it.
Hey yeah, that's right. Maybe he skipped it because I didn't unvote before hand, but my previous vote-related post was unvoting from you.
@Cantrip: No, that vote count isn't correct. SOMEONE WHO WILL REMAIN NAMELESS *cough*Wildfire*cough* didn't completely follow rule #5 where I nicely asked that to prevent me from missing votes, they be on their own line. Now, there's no punishment for missing the second half of it, but it does cause mistakes like this to happen...
We're not lynching me because half the people on my wagon (you and kosa) have made no effort to make a case, and the other half are mostly focused on something that (IMO, and it seems like others agree) isn't that scummy.
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We're not lynching me because half the people on my wagon (you and kosa) have made no effort to make a case, and the other half are mostly focused on something that (IMO, and it seems like others agree) isn't that scummy.
I don't even know where to start on this post.
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I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
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Yeah, I got that, but even veterans can make newbie mistakes on occasion. Why weren't you interested in pursuing him if you approved of the pressure and weren't pursuing anyone else?
:/ Your post was all about how other people perceived Cantrip ("I don't see how anyone"), not about your opinions of him. Why was that?
No. Part of my job as town to avoid being a mislynch being looking town. That means that went I say things they generally have the dual purposes of scumhunting and making me look town. Is that scummy?
I might get bored enough to do it tonight.
I despise that fearmongering is part of your town game.
You wouldn't have any votes were it not for me! But you're right. I thought my points were stronger than they're being received as, and now you're on guard.
How certain would you say your read on Karn is? 50%? 75%?
Liking fulcrum's point on Kosa.
This was complete RVS; why would you think otherwise?
I already said that the mindset behind "This vote isn't moving" isn't likely a townie one, even in jest. It shows an inherent aggressiveness, which CAN be a townie response if it's consistent... but directly following you ask us to be patient for the next half the game, and hold off on doing anything relevant,. That's the opposite of what I would expect.
Everything up to here was RVS.
Rereading it, I see it as just that. Fine.
I was referring to the way I caught heat in Apocalypse, which is what the situation reminded me of. AE made an RVS post w/out a vote; I expressed suspicion, but didn’t vote, Proph called us both out.
Ok. But it's your word choice I was questioning here, as well as the tone of it. You make a quick, definate statement that appears intended to make someone back off. The fact that you didn't specify that you had a game in mind is odd too. If you had that game in mind when you were making the case that there was a precident, why not specify then?
I was mostly amused at the idea.
I guess I can see that mindset behind that being possible.
I was already suspicious of the way Generic had followed Karn onto the start of my wagon, so his reasoning (“I <3 Cantrip Wagons”) was suspect.
That doesn't address the fact that you didn't ask the questions that I would have expected you to. I'm not seeing a logical train between "why do you like wagons on me?" and determination of alignment of that person. It also doesn't actually express suspicion of Generic, which is another thing I would have expected if what you're saying is true.
No, if he thought for some reason that I was an age greater or less than I am, it could explain some of his responses.
How would that have affected any of his responses? Be specific, please.
We have indeed.
It was mostly in reference to my point of you linking us should you flip scum; Given that, your response is extremely lackluster. If you were attempting to tell me to hold off asking those questions, then you should have done that instead of saying things about a script or whatever. In fact, why did you assume I'd understand what you were talking about at all? It wasn't obvious.
That is far from the point. People are confident when they think they're right. They can certainly be wrong and be confident. What's more important here is that you don't like that he's showing so much self-confidence in that post. Why take offense to the self-confidence instead of pointing out that he's mistaken? Do you think he should know he's wrong?
I doubt that you would be so selfish to throw the game for scum in such a manner because you didn't want to be scum with Karn again. And as such, this comment by you makes no sense to me from a town perspective. It's full of WIFOM and seeks only to self-meta/self-clear. Now, would you like some more rope, or can you make a noose out of what you already have?
At that point, I wasn't as confident as I would have liked that he was scum, but he was being scummy, so pressure was a good thing. That, and pressure tends to help a lot in scumhunting.
My opinion should have been obvious regarding my opinion. His fluffiness is scummy. The "I don't see how anyone" was more annoyance that more people weren't seeing what I was seeing.
Can you list a few of your games for me, fulcrum?
Very much so, yes. You think your job as town is to... pretend being town? No. A thousand times no. Aside from how blatantly self-conscious this is, town does not have to pretend to be their own alignment. Especially under no pressure.
That's not an answer. Why not add to the pressure?
You're missing the point. You were more concerned with the general perception of Cantrip than his actual scumminess. Cantrip was being run up. Who precisely were you annoyed at?
On this site, there's WWII, Hayate, Pleasantville and Winterfell. I don't really feel like sharing the rest.
You're twisting my words. Townies have two jobs: lynching scum and not getting lynched themselves. Let me rephrase my question. Is it scummy that I am openly explaining that goal and part of my methods?
I expected someone to ask me sooner. I've already established that I was looking for reactions; keeping things a bit vague helps.
I was attempting to lock Generic into being more specific. Expressing suspicion would put Generic more on guard and taint the response.
The way he stated it ("young Cantrip") made me wonder how old he thought I was. If he thought I was a teenager, for instance, he might think he could get away with #33 without me objecting.
I thought that it would be clear. I was also somewhat still in an RVS mindset.
If he's scum, then yes, he's either aware that he's making false assertions, or the confidence comes in part from bussing. I also think it's incredible hubris to think you can call the scumteam that early in the game. Extreme confidence on a single read I could buy, but all three?
I wouldn't have thrown the game; I would have politely indicated--in my first post, mind you--that I had real life issues come up and had to replace out. My replacement would have had the same chance as I had. And WIFOM or not, it's the truth. I was really surprised that we pulled a win out of Return to Ravnica, and I wouldn't be ready for that kind of stress this soon again.
No I wasn't. That's not what I said at all. And I was annoyed at pretty much everyone not seeing Cantrip's scumminess. Seppel comes to mind.
I'm not actually. You said "Part of my job as town to avoid being a mislynch [by] looking town." Let me reiterate: looking town. Not being town.
Is it scummy that you're openly explaining that? No. It's null. But the fact that you're doing it is very scummy, and you don't get bonus points for explaining yourself.
I couldn't care less about Mafia Theory on Unaligned Pairs(tm) when Wildfire says the bolded (my emphasis):
If Wildfire is scum, he's plainly stating that he knows Daegen and Cantrip were pursuing you exactly because the whole "murder" thing could be seen to be indicative of scum, therefore not fabricating their reads. In other words, he's admitting that Daegen and Cantrip were legitimely believing you could be scum.
Of course, if he's town then this whole point is moot.
Now, please enlighten me as to:
1) How the fact that I failed to correlate your question to my statement denotes a scum mindset (especially considering that the main reason behind my vote was the vibe of his response entirely, not the "unaligned pairing" specifically), and:
2) Occam. Looking in retrospect, I was the second vote on Wildfire. My vote came in when he had virtually zero pressure on bar yours, and your case could simply fail to get steam rolling since we were completely scattered over a plethora of scum suspects. You can go ahead and concote a wild theory about how I "panicked and attempted to cash in towncred", but apply Occam to it comparing to what really happened and you'll see how fast it crumbles.
I gave up on responding to your rebuttals, because whatever I said you just repeated the same "case" you've got on me, which just consists of saying I'm scummy for reaffirming my vote, over and over again.
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I'll take that as a yes.
Now that we've settled that point, could you explain what you've found scummy from me so far? Given I am one of your suspects and all.
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I'll take that as a yes.
Now that we've settled that point, could you explain what you've found scummy from me so far? Given I am one of your suspects and all.
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So that would be a point towards this being town!Generic right?
Wait, what? I did post in that time, and I know he saw my post because he responded to the question I posed to him in that post. My concern is that he was conveniently vague in his mentioning the L-2, and then used a game standard ("too early for a claim") to back off.[/quote]
Yes but my point is that it's not as Generic knows your posting schedule. You can't say he knew you were going to post. And it's very difficult to be sure what Generic is thinking most of the time anyway.
Fair enough he didn't say that, I just assumed. But really when a point comes down to people's own interpretations it's probably better to stick to other points. Which is why I would have liked more than three points for this case.
I didn't feel there was enough posting in the thread to really metaread Generic. It seemed too early and felt too forced.
Apocalypse (Town)
Sesame Street (Town)
uPick (Town)
Marvel 2 (Scum, voted a buddy):
Majora’s Mask (Scum)
[/quote]
Well if you have nothing, I have nothing really to add then. Not lining up with posts he's made as scum or town doesn't help us.
Baseless speculation based on flips that haven't happened.
About as useless as this:
--------------------------------------------- MEEP MEEP MEEP MEEP SPAM SPAM SPAM
Ok, that's a lie, what you're doing is actually scummy [b]Vote Kosa[b]
Possibly, but I haven't done the meta research to see if he does this in other scum games (I don't know if Star Wars is normal, given that I copped him and called him out on it).
I don't understand. I didn't say he knew I was going to post. I said that he backed off after I made a post that made multiple people back off, but he said he had other reasons for backing off...reasons that didn't feel like they made sense with his "L-2" post. Are you handwaving the argument with that last line?
Quote Fail, so you get bullets:
• Fair enough he didn't say that, I just assumed. But really when a point comes down to people's own interpretations it's probably better to stick to other points. Which is why I would have liked more than three points for this case. This game is all about people's interpretations. And I'd have like more than three points, too, but I saw scummy behavior and I ran with it.
• I didn't feel there was enough posting in the thread to really metaread Generic. It seemed too early and felt too forced. Knowing that I was only scrutinizing his opening posts, does that make more sense?
First, I don't even know how one 'Ben listens'. ;p
Second, nice misrep. My exact words were (emphasis added) "I said that he backed off after I made a post that made multiple people back off..." not "everyone".
Third, you were the only one? How about Wildfire in 125 or iRebel in 155 (his first post after I refused to claim), where he specifies that he's unvoting because of how I handled myself in 114?
Who else besides Karn do you suspect of being scum?
Second the request for lists from BE and Wildfire. Oh and Wildfire, you should include an explanation of what you found scummy from me. Don't think I'm letting you get out of that.
BE, my patience is wearing incredibly thin.
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Unvote, Vote Burning_Earth
@Kosa: I asked you a question in 271 (hint: it's at the bottom).
1) Moving my vote doesn't mean I've left your wagon. My vote is a tool that I will use as I see fit.
2) Asking questions and evaluating responses are the only other tools I have; saying that you're going to remove yourself from that equation is anti-town.
I value your opinion if you're town. If you're scum, I value your interaction. Which mofo do you refer to?
I'll stop here. The very first word of your smear denotes how much you've read into my argument.
@Cantrip: from the top of my head, fulcrum cased wildfire, his responses was bad, and people started plowing up.
@Generic:
I like Cantrip and fulcrum.
I kinda like Anthy.
I'm indifferent towards Seppel, Daegan and iRebel.
I don't like Burning_Earth, Sir Karn and Paper_Punster.
I hate Generic and Wildfire.
Next week is my semester's final week. I won't be completely V/LA, but expect me less.
My vote wasn't doing anything on you. If it can be used to make BE respond, so much the better, and then I can leave my vote or change it as appropriate.
@Kosa: That was less than I was hoping for. Can you at least reaffirm why you're voting him?
I'd also gladly vote either Generic or B_E right now.
I don't feel like building a case or fighting anyone right now. If this bothers multiple people I can replace out. But I will likely be up for it again soon.
As for right now, I'll take the most obvious scum that I don't need to build a case on.
Unvote.
Vote: Burning_Earth
Vote Count:
Cantripmancer (1) - Antny223
Wildfire (4) - fulcrum, Kosakosa, iRebel, Seppel
Sir Karn (2) - Generic, Paper_Punster
Kosakosa (1) - Burning_Earth
Burning_Earth (2) - Cantripmancer, Sir Karn
With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch.
Mafia Stats
Kill shot: BB
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99: Attacks me, but agrees on a point against the player I'm attacking.
125: Comment about finding a more fitting place for his vote is a bit self-conscious.
147: I'm not really seeing the nervousness, but I do agree that the last line's passive-aggressive.
153: His t/s list sounds sincere (was he the first one to call BE out on low post counts?), with the exception of the Generic read, which feels off. If BE flips scum, I'd be less suspicious of Wildfire; if Generic flips scum, I'd be more suspicious of Wildfire.
(Aside: iRebel starts 155 off with commenting on BE's lack of activity, as though he's the first one to mention it, when Wildfire just talked about it two posts prior. Might indicate that iRebel isn't reading the thread.)
163: Sounds sincere.
179: More sincerity in response to iRebel, and scumhunting.
195 & 198: Odd interactions with Generic.
264: Doesn't even comment on my case on Generic, but finds it interesting that a Generic wagon is gaining traction...but it wasn't really gaining traction. The general response seemed to be "meh". Starts a push on BE.
So I guess I'm still torn. Many of his responses seem to be sincere, but several of them are off. One of the biggest points from iRebel--the vote reaffirmation--I didn't see any problem with (other than me being the object of Wildfire's suspicions). I like that if Wildfire flips scum, I think it lends to Generic being scum (and if I can only catch Generic through his scumbuddies plays, I'll take what I can get), but I don't think there's enough of a connection demonstrated between the two that Wildfire makes a good information lynch.
@Generic: Will you please answer my question? How certain are you that Karn is scum?
We need BE to post.
I show that Wildfire voted Burning_Earth in 264, and I don't see an unvote.
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For some reason, his posts tend to ooze some kind of charismatic logic that makes me want to follow them.
Though actually, I haven't seen that too much here.
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...
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Hard, without a flip.
Just thought I'd help spread some good mafia theory.
What? You haven't tried to see if I was prepared for the response, yet you strike back abruptly trying to say I couldn't handle it.
@cantrip: Do you think I'm scum?
Karn: I'd say add more content but hey this is BE talking.
Why do you think scum would do this BE?
[b]@BE[/b] - Answer this question we can overlook the fact you didn't answer the last. That's an incentive.
We at the point in the wall where I need to start suppressing quotes.
The Game
If Cantrip aint being lynched I guess I gotta pick a new wagon. I kinda prefer BE over Wildfire right now save the fact Cantrip is at the front of the line.... **** it.
[b]unvote, vote BE[/b]
@Cantrip: No, that vote count isn't correct. SOMEONE WHO WILL REMAIN NAMELESS *cough*Wildfire*cough* didn't completely follow rule #5 where I nicely asked that to prevent me from missing votes, they be on their own line. Now, there's no punishment for missing the second half of it, but it does cause mistakes like this to happen...
Updated Vote Count:
Wildfire393 (4) - fulcrum, Kosakosa, iRebel, Seppel
Sir Karn (2) - Generic, Paper_Punster
Kosakosa (1) - Burning_Earth
Burning_Earth (4) - Cantripmancer, Sir Karn, Wildfire393, Antny223
Also sending a prod to Seppel.
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no I didn't read I just saw that we're still in D1
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Can we let B_E give some content before he's at claim range? Thanks.
Kosa: Really? Every game?
I don't even know where to start on this post.
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