While I happen to think the mindset behind "my vote's not moving" isn't a town one, I'll let this one pass for now because it was rvs, and maybe there's some nonserious random null mindset I'm unable to see or something.
Vote Seppel
Seppel feels wrong. Let's murder him up and see what pops out.
Unvote, Vote fulcrum Serious vote.
Ok, so this post... I read everything up to the vote on fulcrum (save the blood? comment) as fluff. His question about whether Wildfire had ever played with Seppel seems rhetorical, and therefore useless (and possibly just a busy question).
Then he says that he wanted to vote Karn, but wouldn't because of Gambler's fallacy. Again, no point to this. It also has the added benefit of not actually taking a position on Karn, since the wording of his question seems unsure.
The Blood? comment seems forced here. It's obvious from context that he's referring to red wine.
Finally his vote on fulcrum. That's fine, but he gives no reason for it. Maybe he's reaction baiting... maybe he's just trying to appear useful.
Cantrip your vote on Fulcrum is terrible. Explain yourself.
Not yet.
More fluff. I'll even give his "sweet cheeks" comment the benefit of the doubt, since it's playful jest, and having fun isn't scummy.
When he says "there's a precident" so dismissively, I immediately think that he's just trying to get him off his case.
This is followed by Cantrip saying stuff, which I believe Karn aptly describes as seeming to be ok with the idea of being scum.
He then answers my question about his comment being not serious (ok)
Then he asks why Generic loves Cantrip wagons. WTF? This I believe is very mindset telling. He doesn't ask Generic if he thinks he's scum, or why. He asks why he enjoys wagoning him. This is not a townie mindset.
He then refuses to explain himself re: fulcrum, under guise of wanting to wait for some kind of reaction or something from fulcrum.
Linking page 2 and defending it.
Seems to be agreeable to the accusation he's scum, he's more objecting to the fact that he's being called "unlucky" for it.
Have we played any games together?
How old do you think I am? More fluff.
Asking if you've played in any games together CAN be nonfluff... but it seems like laziness more than anything.
@Paper: Cantrip is scum because his posts come from a scum mentality, and look far too identical to his scum meta for it to be a coincidence (and I've had lots of recent exposure to his scum game).
True that you’ve had lots of exposure, but always when you were also scum. How do you know it looks the same from (what you claim is) a town perspective?
Why do you say his vote is terrible? What about his vote is bad, in your opinion? Karn: Can you back that up with some examples?
Jammit, Punster! Stoppit!
Ok here's where it gets interesting.
Cantrip starts off on the whole "Stop, you're ahead in the script." deal. I didn't read this as "Hey, I'm doing something and you're interupting it" but more trying to link me and him for when he flips scum. Hypothetical situation: You're town and someone basically says "HEY THIS ISN'T what we discussed in the scumchat! subtly. That's why I jumped on him. He's scum.
Wildfire, #153: Reaffirming your "suspicion" reads as nervousness insofar as you feel the need to reassert yourself in light of new evidence because if you don't then you'd be viewed in a negative light. Town wouldn't care about that, now would they?
Why do you have your eye on Dagaen for being scarce, but not me?
Vote: Wildfire
1My vote was on him when we were barely out of RVS. I wanted to reaffirm that I felt it belonged there.
2. Also, I have my eye on Dagaen because I just got out of a game with him, where he was scum, so I have a better meta sense on him. You, I have no idea how frequently you usually post.
1. That's all fine and dandy. Doesn't change anything I said.
2. Wouldn't the fact you don't know how frequently I usually be post be more of a reason to be suspect of me? Sorry, not buying your explanation.
1. Well, I don't need it to.
2. How am I supposed to assess that you're posting less frequently than usual if I don't know how frequently you post?
The good news for you is that you have made my suspect list now, for coming in in the middle of both of the wagons that have been pushed to L-2 - you're the one common element between them, and if it's scum pushing for claims (which it definitely looks like to me), that's the perfect place to stick yourself.
I smell something off because, as best as I can recall, I never did math.
I figured you were just commenting on my posting reasons about why Cantrip was scum, as I often do -'s in front of my reasons. But looking again, I'm not even seeing any. Mods can check, but I didn't delete anything (TK would have smote me by now if I had).
Have you been taking your meds sep?
Well you still haven't addressed that you made a non-RVS RVS vote.
Well, you haven't addressed why your first post appears to be some sort of flavor-gaming and avoids RVS entirely.
Deflection!
And it's called breadcrumbing and I forgot to bother with RVS, since most games are usually out of RVS by the time I have a chance to post.
You "forget" to RVS literally 6 posts into the game, and then wonder why I would respond with a semi-serious vote?
The only reason I didn't push it is because your responses were so nonsense that I took them for RVS.
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You never responded to my proposal about hammering wildfire.
Oh, that. I'd be happy to if you're at L-1 and I'm not on your wagon. But what are the odds of that? This crowd seems a bit more wary of you than the past few games have been, but it's still tough to put a case together against you, and I have a feeling that task will ultimately fall onto me.
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Well, I guess we'll see what happens. I'm certain there's no way we'll get you on the lynching block today, regardless of your actual alignment. Just be aware that I have my eye on you, and I won't be so easily fooled into taking it off.
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If your already scumreading Seppel (and explicity don't trust him to metaread Cantrip) why agree with this point?
I'm not scumreading Seppel? His first couple posts were a little weird, but his thoughts have been close enough to my own that I'm going to write him off as town for now. I want someone else to go through the metaread of Cantrip to have another view on it. Why are scumminess and good points mutually exclusive anyway?
He asked a question. I contemplated it. I don't know why a scum would be agreeable to calling a scum. Did you miss the part where I then proceeded to call it WIFOM? He could simply be saying that because he thinks that a scum wouldn't say it.
The real thing that had me changing my mind was the way that he handled being taken up to L-2 within the first few pages of the game.
Then why did you attack Cantrip for being agreeable to being called scum in the first place? You must have had some reasoning.
It wasn't the only reason. The linking players pre-flip (and two pages in) was a bigger issue. It was just something that struck me as odd, and I was interested to see what his reaction to it was.
But you still attacked him over it. Tell me what you were thinking.
I don't see anything wrong with reaffirming my suspicion there. There had been progress on the wagon in the previous pages, with Karn bringing up some relevant meta and Cantrip refusing to give answers to questions. Nothing I had seen there had given me reason not to be suspicious, so I was doing exactly that.
Had I been on a better browser, I likely would have quoted the information that kept me in suspicions, but the computer I was on only has an older IE and thus the quote function was not working.
See, that's a problem. You're describing your mindset as looking for reasons not to vote Cantrip and not finding any, when you should have been looking for reasons that he's scum. Did Karn's meta and Cantrip's refusal to answer questions increase your suspicions? Why?
As far as scum go, if I didn't think Cantrip was scum earlier, I likely would have suspected you for the "murder" line. However, your play since then has me thinking you're in the town pile.
It's too early for concrete reads, but people I've got my eye on are:
Dagaen - He's been pretty scarce so far this game. He ran into a fair amount of early suspicion in Deus Ex for his inability to RVS well. His late arrival could be indicative of trying to avoid this. He's also only really addressed two or three posts, including having his vote on you for the "murder" thing, which seems opportunistic.
Burning_Earth - If you look at uPick, BE loves his manic and overblown early game interactions as town. I see none of that here, which has me worried.
Paper Punster - He was the L-2 vote on Cantrip. The wagon seemed to be losing a little steam at that point, so this looks like an attempt to fish an early claim out of him.
Generic - If all of my games with Generic have taught me a single thing, it's that Generic is always anti-town but will never read as it. The fact that I'm townreading him so far means he's probably scum again.
What about my play makes you think I’m town? Most of the game has not been RVS, so your point about Dagaen’s absence makes no sense. Why was his vote opportunistic, if you agreed with his point against me? Why do you think the Cantrip wagon was losing steam when Paper Punster voted? Your Generic read tells me almost nothing, by the way.
Both wagons so far have had multiple people glom on when they've gained the slightest momentum. Smells strongly of the scum fishing for power claims.
Then who are the scum on the wagons?
iRebel: Then what do you call it?
B_E: If I look bad, why did you agree with Kosa liking me and vote with me?
I think I like iRebel’s “why aren’t you suspicious of me” dance? I might take apart Paper_Punster's case on Cantrip soon, as I don't think he realizes that it's bad.
Generic: Hey. I asked you to read Wildfire for me. Could you do that?
You "forget" to RVS literally 6 posts into the game, and then wonder why I would respond with a semi-serious vote?
The only reason I didn't push it is because your responses were so nonsense that I took them for RVS.
You can continue to deflect and I can continue to keep my vote on you. Win win.
Just so everybody knows: My activity died suddenly in the middle of Deus Ex because I got my internship and my time for playing Mafia was signifantly decreased. I will be less active than usual in here as well, unless something happens that allow me to throw some quick posts. Building Walls requires some time I don't always have.
I was hoping you were Burning_Earth when I read this.
Sorry, weekends are always iffy for me. I had two commencements and a barbeque today, and I'm exhausted, so while I know that there are other things for me to respond to in the thread (like Punster's case, which even a quick skim shows is bad), I think I can set out my three main concerns.
1. Generic's opening post felt off. It feels overly verbose and explanatory, something I've noticed more since I got caught for doing the same thing in Apocalypse. Here's the post:
You are probably best off voting me out night 1 if I'm gonna get ***** for being too damn good at this game
/confirm, nice to be back in my own skin again. Almost forgot my password it's begun do long!
vote sir karn for stealing my pumpernickel again.
Teammates of his likely include wildfire and burning earth so already he might as well concede
When I said I wanted to do a little bit of meta, I wanted to compare this to his first posts in other games. I hunted them down and pasted them into a working notes document, but I don't have access to that now, so you'll likely get them on Tuesday. If I have time before then, I'll recompile, but I believe I found the results mildly suggestive, though not condemning.
2. He waited for someone to take the lead on my wagon. I linked him in 31 (due to his wording in 30, which could have been a joke, but came off as nervous and self-aware), and he immediately responded in 32 (with a challenge) and 33 (with a smear). 34 was Karn voting me, and 35 is Punster's RVS, which includes a question to me. 36 is Generic's vote. What changed in the hour and a half since 33? Why didn't Generic vote in 32/33? The only thing that changed was Karn voting for me (without reason) and a mild question from Punster. This is opportunism on Generic's part, and isn't a town mindset.
3. He backpedals on wanting a claim. In 105, Punster puts me to L-2. Three minutes later, Generic highlights that it's L-2 and calls for a votecount. The primary purpose, I feel, in anyone highlighting that is to inform the L-2 player that he's at claim range (so the L-2 player can claim). 114 is where I call for patience. In 118, Generic unvotes:
Way too early to a claim to be in play. But to answer your question cantrip I'm not sure yet. I'm certainly not town reading you but I would be lying if I said I could meta you so quickly. I have meta read you in he past but it's off a specific and I have just had a vibe off you that you aren't very town motivated. And anyone who takes me on early I press so there we go.
I dot want to vote kosa either. His poor push on me doesn't seem sneaky enough for his scum game.
Note that his reasoning for unvoting isn't tied to my request for patience; it's that it's too early in the game for a claim. If he really believed that, why wouldn't he unvote back in 106? He then fencesits and waffles with a ridiculously run-on sentence. If my response in 114 made him question his read on me, why wouldn't he say so? I think it's because he doesn't want to commit either way; by saying that his unvote is because it's too early for a claim, he's falling back on standards of the game, not because of the way I responded. Again, the reasoning behind the unvote, and especially the lack of consistency in that reasoning, shows a scum mindset.
I'll be happy to respond further when I next have a chance, but that may not be until Tuesday. Lots going on tomorrow, and I might just get a date day with my wife on Monday, so you lot would definitely come in a distant second on that one.
Could still be Kosa but he was more likely mainly because of Cantrip. He also has a history of being... like this as town, so I wouldn't put it past him.
With how Wildfire's wagon happened I think he's town, despite having some weird/bad posts.
I don't particularly like BE's posting this game. Could very well be him. The one time I've played with him he was town, and he was very good at being obvtown. He hasn't done any of that yet. I wouldn't lynch him toDay since he has potential to start going obvtown on us in a Day or two. I'd say if he is still alive and is not obvtown by the end of Day 3 then he's scum.
For toDay we can lynch Generic or Seppel. I'll set this here: Vote: Seppel
Could still be Kosa but he was more likely mainly because of Cantrip. He also has a history of being... like this as town, so I wouldn't put it past him.
With how Wildfire's wagon happened I think he's town, despite having some weird/bad posts.
I don't particularly like BE's posting this game. Could very well be him. The one time I've played with him he was town, and he was very good at being obvtown. He hasn't done any of that yet. I wouldn't lynch him toDay since he has potential to start going obvtown on us in a Day or two. I'd say if he is still alive and is not obvtown by the end of Day 3 then he's scum.
For toDay we can lynch Generic or Seppel. I'll set this here: Vote: Seppel
If your already scumreading Seppel (and explicity don't trust him to metaread Cantrip) why agree with this point?
I'm not scumreading Seppel? His first couple posts were a little weird, but his thoughts have been close enough to my own that I'm going to write him off as town for now. I want someone else to go through the metaread of Cantrip to have another view on it. Why are scumminess and good points mutually exclusive anyway?
Well if I wasn't confused before that first question has confused me further. It sounded like you were scumreading Seppel in the early game which is why agreeing with his point about PP not scumreading him yet seemed off to me. If your not actually scumreading him then I guess it doesn't matter.
As for scumminess and good points being mutually exclusive, well their not always but I always take points off players I'm scumreading less sincerely than otherwise.
I kind of like B_E for town. And then Seppel says the same thing, except his town read on Kosa is gross.
What is your townread on BE here based on?
B_E's post about being in over his head.
Well since this townread seems to no longer hold, I guess we'll dismiss this as just a weak early townread.
Cantrip - That's your Generic case. You couldn't even rustle up three points without using his rvs post. Also it takes like a minute to compare opening posts. It does not feel off. I would love to know what you saw in the six games he gave to make you think it was. Then this bit
2. He waited for someone to take the lead on my wagon.I linked him in 31 (due to his wording in 30, which could have been a joke, but came off as nervous and self-aware), and he immediately responded in 32 (with a challenge) and 33 (with a smear).
But congrats on linking people on page 2, that's quite an effort.
Is calling you out for something you actually did (and now admit to) a smear?
As for the rest of the point, I guess that's Generic's to respond to. (and reading on it appears he has)
As for the third point Generic backpeddling only really works if he asked for a claim. Saying he thinks your at L-2 and asking for a votecount can have many different interpretations. Wouldn't Generic checking where whether his count was correct before unvoting make just as much sense?
@Karn What about the formation of the Wildfire wagon makes you think he's town?
Based on my memories of uPick Generic seems fairly town.
Karn's vote needs a fair amount of explaining. Still wanna lynch Cantrip today though. Who's with me?
Hey B_E, if I look bad, why did you agree with Kosa liking me and vote with me?
/reads Cantrip's case on Generic
Meh.
Antny: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=white knighting It's a general forum term, not just a mafia one. In this context, it refers to one person defending another without thinking their actions through. In iRebel's case, the better action would have been to wait for me to respond to Cantrip's naked vote instead of immediately attacking him.
Let's say a Cantrip lynch isn't going to happen. Who else would you like to lynch? Oh, and what do you think of Paper_Punster's case?
1. Well, I don't need it to.
2. How am I supposed to assess that you're posting less frequently than usual if I don't know how frequently you post?
The good news for you is that you have made my suspect list now, for coming in in the middle of both of the wagons that have been pushed to L-2 - you're the one common element between them, and if it's scum pushing for claims (which it definitely looks like to me), that's the perfect place to stick yourself.
1. Actually you do, because what you said is scummy. You've openly admitted to the need to re-affirm your vote right after RVS, and your explanation doesn't pass muster. Why did you feel the need to? You weren't under pressure, you weren't being quizzed about it. The real explanation is simple: You felt nervous about leaving your RVS vote on a real wagon, so to counteract the scummy image you thought it would give, you decided to re-affirm that you were legitimately on the wagon. Which, coincidentally, is scummy, because it shows that you're concerned about how you'll be viewed, and it shows a pre-meditation in your actions.
2. You're not. The issue is, again, of mindset. Town are supposed to break down the game, to examine every nook and cranny to find scum. The first point, about how you thought Dagaen wasn't posting enough based off of your experience with him? That's town thinking, generally. But you stopped there, and that's where you messed up. You didn't call me out, despite the fact I had less posts than Dagaen. Hell, there were a few people that weren't posting all that much. But you ONLY called out Dagaen. You ONLY called out the guy you had experience with because it's safe, because you can point to something and say "hey! look! evidence!" You completely ignored someone like myself who, frankly, hadn't been posting enough. I am a complete unknown to you. Figuring out the unknown should be a key priority for town.
And yet you ignored the fact I, too, hadn't been posting much. You went after the safe target, Dagaen, with whom you could juxtapose his posting here v. his other game you shared. That's not something I'd consider a town mindset. That's "I'm trying to look town without screwing up" mindset, IMO — and it's what scum do.
More votes on Wildfire please.
Oh, and please explain what you've found scummy from me so far.
@Fulcrum: I call it calling out something I saw to be bad. My idea of white knighting can be found in uPick and WW2 Mafia.
@BE: I asked you a question. Answer it dammit.
@Cantrip: Your case on Generic isn't very compelling.
@Sir Karn: In light of what I have said re: Wildfire in this post, do you still think he could be town? Why the hell are you voting for Seppel over Generic given you like the case on him? Can you surmise why you think Seppel is scum?
@Antny: I want to lynch Wildfire. What do you think of him and why?
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I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
I'm voting Seppel over Generic because literally every post Seppel has made this game has been scummy, and I honestly don't feel like talking to Generic because he's miserable to talk to.
I also said I'd be willing to lynch either toDay, so I don't see why it's a big deal.
Seppel's reaction in 221 is super scummy by the way - to anyone that didn't notice. Generic's vote is pretty terrible too.
The two quick opportunistic votes (one being from scum!Seppel, one being from potential-scum B_E) are what makes me think Wildfire is town.
Hey Generic, I don't know if you know this (though it seems like it does by how you voted me), but reads change in Mafia, especially as short as 200 or so posts into the game.
So how is that a "scum slip" as you feel fond of calling it?
So that was good enough for you to abandon your scum certainty on cantrip, to vote for me... Oh no, wait a second, you didn't even vote for me did you? So that case was SO good it turned your opinion of cantrip, but didn't compel you to vote for me.
Can you explain to me how that is a 'scum' play as opposed to just 'a play you don't agree with'? It's not like I was taking advantage of something. And the only reason I would hypothetically avoid voting you and instead vote Seppel is if we were buddies and I didn't want to bus you - and I'm sure that isn't a point you're pushing.
@fulcrum: I stopped voting Cantrip because I don't feel like 211 is a scum!Cantrip post. Just the plain case/manner doesn't feel like something scum!Cantrip could muster, and I also like his points against Generic.
I wouldn't have seen an issue had his case been even decent
No one that wants to survive would ever admit a case against them was good whether it is or is not. So that means that there is not a single situation that you would ever see it as "not an issue."
It doesn't matter where my vote is until it's lynch time when I've said I'm willing to vote you or Seppel. It doesn't make a difference whether I write "Vote: Generic" or not.
I don't know what "ibterwst" is, but I just don't like talking to you. You're not a pleasant person to converse with. It's not "having to deal with [your] backlash." - there's nothing you could do to actually hurt me - I just would prefer to not talk to you.
Additionally, I find it funny that you think that Cantrip and I are scum together again, and that I am once again bussing him immediately out of the gate after how he complained about it last time.
Can someone explain to me what is fundamentally scummy about saying that I'm willing to vote either of two people, then putting my vote on one of them?
@Antny: Quote fails make me sad on this new site version, because if you hit Quote, it ends the quote at the end of the first quote fail. Regarding 186:
• I did call you out; that's what questioning your reasoning was. Your response sounded sincere and makes me feel a little better about you.
• "And the only way that's scummy is through Generic's meta?" No, he's scummy for the other reasons I've given. Where (before 186) did I say he was scummy because of his meta?
While I happen to think the mindset behind "my vote's not moving" isn't a town one, I'll let this one pass for now because it was rvs, and maybe there's some nonserious random null mindset I'm unable to see or something.
This was complete RVS; why would you think otherwise?
Quote from PP »
Ok, so this post... I read everything up to the vote on fulcrum (save the blood? comment) as fluff. His question about whether Wildfire had ever played with Seppel seems rhetorical, and therefore useless (and possibly just a busy question).
Then he says that he wanted to vote Karn, but wouldn't because of Gambler's fallacy. Again, no point to this. It also has the added benefit of not actually taking a position on Karn, since the wording of his question seems unsure.
The Blood? comment seems forced here. It's obvious from context that he's referring to red wine.
Everything up to here was RVS.
Quote from PP »
Finally his vote on fulcrum. That's fine, but he gives no reason for it. Maybe he's reaction baiting... maybe he's just trying to appear useful.
Linking players early. Problem here is that he's basing it on unjustified reads.
I saw a questionable 3rd RVS followed by Generic expressing what sounded like actual suspicion but without a vote. Sounded like something a buddy would say.
Quote from PP »
When he says "there's a precident" so dismissively, I immediately think that he's just trying to get him off his case.
I was referring to the way I caught heat in Apocalypse, which is what the situation reminded me of. AE made an RVS post w/out a vote; I expressed suspicion, but didn’t vote, Proph called us both out.
Quote from PP »
This is followed by Cantrip saying stuff, which I believe Karn aptly describes as seeming to be ok with the idea of being scum.
I was mostly amused at the idea.
Quote from PP »
Then he asks why Generic loves Cantrip wagons. WTF? This I believe is very mindset telling. He doesn't ask Generic if he thinks he's scum, or why. He asks why he enjoys wagoning him. This is not a townie mindset.
I was already suspicious of the way Generic had followed Karn onto the start of my wagon, so his reasoning (“I <3 Cantrip Wagons”) was suspect.
Quote from PP »
He then refuses to explain himself re: fulcrum, under guise of wanting to wait for some kind of reaction or something from fulcrum.
I was waiting for fulcrum’s response.
Quote from PP »
How old do you think I am? More fluff.
No, if he thought for some reason that I was an age greater or less than I am, it could explain some of his responses.
Quote from PP »
Asking if you've played in any games together CAN be nonfluff... but it seems like laziness more than anything.
It was laziness, but it was also nonfluff. I have a horrible memory, and I didn’t think we had played together, but if he knew, I wouldn’t have to look it up.
Quote from PP »
Ok here's where it gets interesting.
Cantrip starts off on the whole "Stop, you're ahead in the script." deal. I didn't read this as "Hey, I'm doing something and you're interupting it" but more trying to link me and him for when he flips scum. Hypothetical situation: You're town and someone basically says "HEY THIS ISN'T what we discussed in the scumchat! subtly. That's why I jumped on him. He's scum.
Yeah, I could see why you might think that, but you’re wrong.
Just because I like the case doesn't mean my vote needs to be I you Generic, especially when I have another scum read to vote.
Also you keep pushing aside the fact that I said the manner and making of the case - no matter if it was on you or not (or if I agreed with it or not) - feels like town!Cantrip. The actual case against you was hardly the reason for my turn around; I just happened to like it.
Additionally, most of your case stems from you thinking I'm bussing Cantrip. Yet you're voting me instead of Cantrip. Putting the carriage in front of the horse etc.
@Everyone else: I thought this would be self-evident from the posts I was quoting/referencing, but I'm catching up as I can, in chronological order. It's rare for me to even post on weekends.
200: fulcrum continues to goodpost.
201: Except I don't get this. Why is Kosa Wildfire's buddy, fulcrum?
212: Generic's right; something's off with Karn's push away from Generic.
1. Spent months in a hydra, opening up again in my own account and I'm playing one game at a time at present. I have the most posts of the game so I clearly like to say a lot, and pretty much all my posts have come in pairs. An oddly wordy opening post is not a scumtell so as an opening aguemrn it's *****.
I disagree. An oddly worded opening post can be very telling, as was mine in Apoc.
Quote from Generic »
2. I openly declared I was jumping on your wagon rather Han pushing it myself.
And this makes it all ok because...? Seriously: what happened between 32-33 and 36 to make you vote?
Quote from Generic »
So it also ties in to 3 and stands to reason I wouldn't stay on it long.
How is this a counterargument? You expressed no reservations in 106, and showed no signs of abandoning ship. What does the length of time you were on my wagaon have to do with the price of tea in China?
Quote from Generic »
I told you why I was on it cos I know you are easier to read under pressure. I asked for a votecount and mentioned the L-2 because I couldn't be bothered to actually check it was L-2 and didn't want you fast lynched when that wasn't the purpose of my being on your wagon.
Well, it's a good thing you went on record as waffling on my scumminess, isn't it? Also good that you didn't give any indication as to why you were highlighting L-2.
Just so we are clear btw, when I flip town that was 100% on cantrips shoulders. I don't want no bull***** 'generic is to blame'. Cantrip claimed a cast iron case that he wasn't willing to share while I was away but felt it was so strong he was gonna throw down a vote.
Excuse me? Where did I claim a cast iron case? I said I believed you were scum, and that I felt I had solid points on you. I still believe both.
Quote from Generic »
Then when it appears it's only three points long and involves 'the opening post was too wordy', 'he didn't vote for me first' and 'he retracted the vote too fast '.
Isn't there an argumentative fallacy involving reducing arguments to the point that they sound minimal? The actions you took are behaviorally questionable.
Quote from Generic »
No meta, which he even admits before showing it isn't anything but associative, and yet that was the big case he couldn't share with you guys immediately.
Again with the meta. I'll have access to my notes tomorrow and I'll post what I found. Does it point unfallably to you being scum? No. The strength of my convictions lies in the other two points. The behavioral ones.
Quote from Generic »
Yeah, please lynch me. Then cantrip can be buried over it.
Defeatism is still a scumtrait. And townies can still be wrong. If you flip town, yeah, I ought to catch some flak, but I think I can make it clear that I sincerely believe that you're scum. So far, though, I've seen nothing to give me pause.
Hmm, here's something else that doesn't jive. 218 has Generic ready to be lynched to show that I'm scum, but then 220 he votes Karn.
Bah, I ought to be going to bed, but...
Quote from Antny223 »
Cantrip - That's your Generic case. You couldn't even rustle up three points without using his rvs post. Also it takes like a minute to compare opening posts. It does not feel off. I would love to know what you saw in the six games he gave to make you think it was.
Yeah, I'm frustrated because I did actually take the time to look them up (and asked clarification, see the question to Generic regarding uPick, which he never answered, but that's understandable), but then left my notes where they were inaccessible. I remember seeing elements that caused concern, but, like I said, weren't scum-confirming. I'll take another look tomorrow.
Quote from Antny »
Quote from Cantripmancer »
2. He waited for someone to take the lead on my wagon. I linked him in 31 (due to his wording in 30, which could have been a joke, but came off as nervous and self-aware), and he immediately responded in 32 (with a challenge) and 33 (with a smear).
The smear in question:
Quote from Generic »
But congrats on linking people on page 2, that's quite an effort.
Is calling you out for something you actually did (and now admit to) a smear?
The smear is the "that's quite an effort" part. He's intimating that I had to fabricate or make something up, which would imply that I'm trying to make him look bad. I wasn't; he's smearing.
Quote from Antny »
As for the third point Generic backpeddling only really works if he asked for a claim. Saying he thinks your at L-2 and asking for a votecount can have many different interpretations. Wouldn't Generic checking where whether his count was correct before unvoting make just as much sense?
Seriously? To what point? If he doesn't want a claim, then why didn't he unvote before I posted? If my post was why he unvoted, why wouldn't he say so?
Also, you never answered my question in 158; care to respond?
I'm frustrated that my points on Generic aren't being received better; I hate having to wait to find out if my instincts are correct.
For some reason Curse is quoting properly in Chrome. Whatever.
With regards to 259.
I've seen Generic do the whole "lynch me and let the player pressuring me take the blunt tomorrow" attitude as town. He can do it as scum but it's hardly alignment indicative in this case.
The thing is I looked them up quickly as well and the opening post is not really out of the ordinary. Generic can make multiple line opening posts as town (for instance uPick, Sesame Street) and single post openers as scum (Marvel Madness II) so I still don't see how this post really offers us any insight into Generic's alignment.
I've seen (and undoubtedly committed) worse smears. At best it's a small point. Certainly a long way from being lynch-worthy.
I don't see an issue. He asked for a votecount and then unvoted after it. There was a gap of an hour and a half. It's not Generic could have know you were gonna post in that time. Anyway if Generic has already said he would unvote if you were at L-2 it's fair to expect that a player would hold off claiming.
Can you requote any unanswered question for me. Cheers.
Apologies for my disappearance, this weekend was extremely busy. If people have outstanding questions for me, please ask them.
The fact that a Generic wagon is gaining traction is quite interesting. I've literally never seen that happen in the three games I've played with him.
I'm still not liking Burning Earth here, though. His normal frenetic and often spammy play is completely absent. He's managed to give even less of a reason for his reads than usual (see his Generic vote above). Vote Burning_Earth
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Alright. I am back and ready to party. Catching back up now. I'll likely follow that up with a T/S list since I feel like that will answer the most questions here.
Unaligned pairs: people who probably aren't knowingly aligned. Do you have any thoughts on them?
I know what those are, but your question is odd. You mean what I think about it theoretically speaking? If so, I have absolutely no idea. Never stopped to think about it.
Apologies for my disappearance, this weekend was extremely busy. If people have outstanding questions for me, please ask them.
The fact that a Generic wagon is gaining traction is quite interesting. I've literally never seen that happen in the three games I've played with him.
I'm still not liking Burning Earth here, though. His normal frenetic and often spammy play is completely absent. He's managed to give even less of a reason for his reads than usual (see his Generic vote above). Vote Burning_Earth
Any response to my last rebuttal? Or are you just going to admit to being scum already?
Why is the Generic wagon interesting? Day 1 Generic wagons are close to being a Mafia Law.
@ Generic: I did post a few pages back that I'd be semi-V/LA, for the record.
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I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
Newb!scumtell alert. Why didn't you vote for Cantrip here?
Before answering this, I should inform you I'm not actually new. I've got quite a few games under my belt. But my answer is that I wasn't intending to persue him just then. I changed my mind due to his fluff/trying to link us when he flips scum.
Anyway, I did it to make the vote a bit more aggressive and to give off a “That belonged in a scum qt, so she probably doesn’t have one” vibe.
So your intent was to insert fake aggressiveness into the post? And to specifially tailor your post to make people think that you don't have access to the scumchat? Did you literally just admit to attempting to fake being town?
So put that vote of yours on me and we can go 1v1. I've got nothing to lose, how about you? And you will even have the advantage over me of having my wagon at 2 votes with kosa very likely to join. And I believe burning earth was keen to get on the wagon whereas I am the only one voting for you or showing itent to right now.
But I like to look back on this day 1 when I'm proven rigt knowing I commited. So let's do this.
At some point, people are going to tire of you playing the HolierSmarter-Than-Thou card every time you get run up (or even cased). If you are town, you're not helping anything by egging on your own D1 lynch. Even the assertion that it'll help find scum I find questionable, as many scum would shy from the noise associated with your wagon. If I'm wrong, guess what? I'm allowed to be because I'm town. Might I get run up for pressuring/casing a player who turns out to be town? Sure. Might it lose my team the game in the long run? Sure. But unlike some, I don't claim to be expert at this game, so I do my best and learn from the results as best I can. And then I move on.
Quote from Generic »
Cantrip, surprised after your big build up to a nothing case that you chose to focus on something other Han my reply. Is that because you didn't he the reaction you hoped from it from everyone?
Like I said before, I thought it was obvious that I was catching up. Given that the posts I was quoting were from before the case I put forth, why would you assume that it was anything else?
Cantrip, rigt here is where seppel asked. And you will notice I unvoted very shortly after.
Hmm, why are you following Seppel's lead?
Quote from Generic »
You claimed a solid case, I say you claimed a cast iron case. In my world someone promising a damning push whereby they vote off the back of it but feel it would be unfair to present the case while I'm not here is either an indication that you want to build up the tension on it cos you actually have nothin
How does this make any sense? If you hadn't been v/la, I would have just posted what I had.
Quote from Generic »
or you think it's so good you were concerned a wagon would form even without me there to defend it. I assumed the latter cos I had considered you more capable than you were on this occasion.
You're leaving a third option out: that my wagon would be good enough without you to respond to it that scum could run with it to a mislynch. Frickin' hell, you're obnoxious. In fact, after your utter scorn for my lack of ability in Star Wars, I suppose I should feel honored that you even briefly considered me capable. At anything.
Quote from Generic »
Your counter to my pointig out my opening was a reflection of a return to my own account was 'still too wordy' ?
It felt self-conscious; it's not like you haven't been playing. You have, just under other labels.
Quote from Generic »
I clearly stated I wanted you to be under pressure to better read you. One vote holds less pressure than two. So following karn a vote held more value to my purpose than just me voting. What part of that isn't making sense to you?
The part where you weren't willing to commit a vote until someone else did. Why wait for Karn to be the first vote; if you wanted pressure on me, why not start it yourself?
Quote from Generic »
And as I stated, I openly declared I though it was L-2 to avoid loose voting you to hammer, and wanted mod clarity you were at L-2. Before we even got to that seppel had requested the unvote and I thought you might drop the claim before I got my clarity so I pulled the vote.
Baloney in bold. I had already refused to claim by the time you unvoted.
Quote from Generic »
so now you throw a light suspicion on karn. Yet no expansion. Is that because he is V/LA? If so why bother stating anything at all until he returned? Or did you want it on record in case he flips scum later and you can poit back to this as early suspicion?
It's because I have no expansion at this time.
Quote from Generic »
I have offered a 1v1 with sir karn, you should be happy two scum reads of yours will be up against eachother, yet you merely want to focus on how defeatism is a scum tell... For who? You have read all these games of mine and supposedly have this great meta on me, when have I ever been defeatist as scum? I seem to remember the one time you were handed me on a plate I STILL fought my way out of the corner with a doc claim.
Oh. My. Frickin. Gosh. Where did I say I have a great meta read on you? Be specific.
Quote from Generic »
One thing you will learn cantrip, unless I'm sold out by someone else you won't catch on to me. If this is the hope from this because you know the last one was tainted then you will be seriously disappointed. But I actually think your push here has an agenda so we shall see who's right in the end won't we?
Well, you've got the indignation down pat, that's for sure. My only agenda is to catch scum; let's pin down that vague smear, shall we? What agenda do you suspect?
I've seen Generic do the whole "lynch me and let the player pressuring me take the blunt tomorrow" attitude as town. He can do it as scum but it's hardly alignment indicative in this case.
Yeah, I've experienced his "lynch me as town" rant before, and I reread his posts in Star Wars (scum), and he wasn't nearly as "lynch me!!111!"
Quote from Antny »
The thing is I looked them up quickly as well and the opening post is not really out of the ordinary. Generic can make multiple line opening posts as town (for instance uPick, Sesame Street) and single post openers as scum (Marvel Madness II) so I still don't see how this post really offers us any insight into Generic's alignment.
See below for my thoughts on his opening posts.
Quote from Antny »
I've seen (and undoubtedly committed) worse smears. At best it's a small point. Certainly a long way from being lynch-worthy.
Individually, no; taken as part of the bigger picture, I find it worth pursuing.
Quote from Antny »
I don't see an issue. He asked for a votecount and then unvoted after it. There was a gap of an hour and a half. It's not Generic could have know you were gonna post in that time.
Wait, what? I did post in that time, and I know he saw my post because he responded to the question I posed to him in that post. My concern is that he was conveniently vague in his mentioning the L-2, and then used a game standard ("too early for a claim") to back off.
Quote from Antny »
Anyway if Generic has already said he would unvote if you were at L-2 it's fair to expect that a player would hold off claiming.
Where did he say that before I refused to claim?
Quote from Antny »
Can you requote any unanswered question for me. Cheers.
@Antny: The question from 158 was "Why did you think it was “fake meta reading”?"
I'm guessing burning earth isn't very comfortable with his role. What I'm trying to figure out is whether that's because he has a PR or he's scum/anti town.
Spelling this out is not a town action.
Ok:
Deus Ex: Not considered. Not only was he serial killer, he was posting in a hydra with Rhand, and Rhand posted first.
I got to the end of page 1 and wanted to vote for rodemy and proph.
By page 2 rodemy leapt out as outstanding first choice because he is simply crumbling under the small amount of pressure created.
I will finish off the last few pages now but i wanted to place this as a marker in case work draws my attention away.
I can confirm seppels claim as I'm his imaginary friend, Mr snuffleupagus.
And since I'm imaginary I am bulletproof and lynchproof I'm afraid. vote sir karn
For idiocy.
Still semi v/la which I had informed Proph of but he didn't feel the need to mention in the game, so thanks for that hydra buddy.
Has a skim, I don't know why people aren't keen to test this supposed claim of an investigation, on the proviso that we lynch the liar if they flip town.
Daegan did appear to slip with the 'mislynch' comment however so I will have to properly assess it when I get to read it all.
Not digging tim Scott either, you guys seem to have a game plan of slapping everyone and since I'm not bothering wih emo generic in my last couple of games here I won't be indulging you guys. I might consider ignoring you in fact, see what that does for my sanity
Other than that, whoever voted for me in RVS over something so overused regarding me username... Boring.
Toodles.
Iso, already you have my back up because I've seen this before with you.
Jey just made a post wherby she tried to lay down foundations for taking the fierce deity mask, which although I have absolutely no idea about the game by the reactions of others in this game seems like this is a big deal mask, and also makes some very forced 'oops, missed that rule' posts and you clear her as town?
I agreed with your issues with asension though, and can someone (preferably lizard) please explain that planned idea of giving the second scummiest player a vig shot to use cos that made no sense to me at all.
So, yeah, I don't remember what it was that I found mildly suggestive about those other than that none of them feel fractured like the one in this game. Could that be because Generic is "back in his own skin"? Yeah, I guess. It just felt like he was rambling, thus nervous.
@Burning_Earth: List the reasons you have for voting Generic, please.
@Kosa: Summarize the reasons behind the Wildfire wagon for me, will you?
Unaligned pairs: people who probably aren't knowingly aligned. Do you have any thoughts on them?
I know what those are, but your question is odd. You mean what I think about it theoretically speaking? If so, I have absolutely no idea. Never stopped to think about it.
What's the point of asking this anyway?
Thanks kosa. That's all I was waiting for.
Remember what you said when you first joined the Wildfire wagon? Here, let me quote it for you.
And I like even more the fact that if Wildfire is scum, he just towncleared Daegen and Cantrip.
Unvote
Vote Wildfire
Just look at that reaction. It wasn't "Wildfire is scummy, I should pressure him" because you would have stated your reasons for voting or asked him some question. No, it was "[Wildfire] just towncleared Daegen and Cantrip, I'd better vote for him." But hey, maybe you actually are just really into unaligned pairs, and that's why they struck you as the most important thing to write down. But you don't even care about them, theoretical wise or by pointing more out in the thread. The obvious answer to this little problem is that you saw your scummate starting to go down (confirmation bias would have made his posts look worse to you than to the rest of us, amplifying that fear) and then you saw him starting to clear townies. You panicked, decided you needed to look town by attacking him and thought you'd get the towncred for pointing out townclears that you thought would be blatantly obvious to everyone.
tl:dr: Kosa and Wildfire are scummates. Stop the Cantrip/Generic/Karn/Seppel/whatever smackdown and start voting for scum.
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I blame Curse!
While I happen to think the mindset behind "my vote's not moving" isn't a town one, I'll let this one pass for now because it was rvs, and maybe there's some nonserious random null mindset I'm unable to see or something.
Ok, so this post... I read everything up to the vote on fulcrum (save the blood? comment) as fluff. His question about whether Wildfire had ever played with Seppel seems rhetorical, and therefore useless (and possibly just a busy question).
Then he says that he wanted to vote Karn, but wouldn't because of Gambler's fallacy. Again, no point to this. It also has the added benefit of not actually taking a position on Karn, since the wording of his question seems unsure.
The Blood? comment seems forced here. It's obvious from context that he's referring to red wine.
Finally his vote on fulcrum. That's fine, but he gives no reason for it. Maybe he's reaction baiting... maybe he's just trying to appear useful.
Linking players early. Problem here is that he's basing it on unjustified reads.
More fluff. I'll even give his "sweet cheeks" comment the benefit of the doubt, since it's playful jest, and having fun isn't scummy.
When he says "there's a precident" so dismissively, I immediately think that he's just trying to get him off his case.
This is followed by Cantrip saying stuff, which I believe Karn aptly describes as seeming to be ok with the idea of being scum.
He then answers my question about his comment being not serious (ok)
Then he asks why Generic loves Cantrip wagons. WTF? This I believe is very mindset telling. He doesn't ask Generic if he thinks he's scum, or why. He asks why he enjoys wagoning him. This is not a townie mindset.
He then refuses to explain himself re: fulcrum, under guise of wanting to wait for some kind of reaction or something from fulcrum.
How old do you think I am? More fluff.
Asking if you've played in any games together CAN be nonfluff... but it seems like laziness more than anything.
Ok here's where it gets interesting.
Cantrip starts off on the whole "Stop, you're ahead in the script." deal. I didn't read this as "Hey, I'm doing something and you're interupting it" but more trying to link me and him for when he flips scum. Hypothetical situation: You're town and someone basically says "HEY THIS ISN'T what we discussed in the scumchat! subtly. That's why I jumped on him. He's scum.
Deflection!
And it's called breadcrumbing and I forgot to bother with RVS, since most games are usually out of RVS by the time I have a chance to post.
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StaffThe only reason I didn't push it is because your responses were so nonsense that I took them for RVS.
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StaffOh, that. I'd be happy to if you're at L-1 and I'm not on your wagon. But what are the odds of that? This crowd seems a bit more wary of you than the past few games have been, but it's still tough to put a case together against you, and I have a feeling that task will ultimately fall onto me.
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They didn't in Winterfell, which happens to be my only experience with him.
That he seriously believes my using the word "murder" was a scumslip.
The part addressed to Paper_punster. I can't really see scum intentionally clearing someone like that though, except for wifom purposes.
I'll give you three guesses, and the first two don't count.
Eh, I assessed the playerbase and my perception within it, and figured it probably wouldn't be taken in that (stupid) way.
Timing. It happened after the wagon had already started to die off, so it doesn't seem opportunistic.
I'm not scumreading Seppel? His first couple posts were a little weird, but his thoughts have been close enough to my own that I'm going to write him off as town for now. I want someone else to go through the metaread of Cantrip to have another view on it. Why are scumminess and good points mutually exclusive anyway?
Not in the way I use it.
You misunderstood. The unvote without voting despite having clear target for his vote (Cantrip) is a newbie scumtell.
B_E's post about being in over his head.
But you still attacked him over it. Tell me what you were thinking.
See, that's a problem. You're describing your mindset as looking for reasons not to vote Cantrip and not finding any, when you should have been looking for reasons that he's scum. Did Karn's meta and Cantrip's refusal to answer questions increase your suspicions? Why?
What about my play makes you think I’m town? Most of the game has not been RVS, so your point about Dagaen’s absence makes no sense. Why was his vote opportunistic, if you agreed with his point against me? Why do you think the Cantrip wagon was losing steam when Paper Punster voted? Your Generic read tells me almost nothing, by the way.
Then who are the scum on the wagons?
iRebel: Then what do you call it?
B_E: If I look bad, why did you agree with Kosa liking me and vote with me?
I think I like iRebel’s “why aren’t you suspicious of me” dance? I might take apart Paper_Punster's case on Cantrip soon, as I don't think he realizes that it's bad.
Generic: Hey. I asked you to read Wildfire for me. Could you do that?
You can continue to deflect and I can continue to keep my vote on you. Win win.
I was hoping you were Burning_Earth when I read this.
I love you so much right now.
This is bad, as kosa said.
1. Generic's opening post felt off. It feels overly verbose and explanatory, something I've noticed more since I got caught for doing the same thing in Apocalypse. Here's the post:
When I said I wanted to do a little bit of meta, I wanted to compare this to his first posts in other games. I hunted them down and pasted them into a working notes document, but I don't have access to that now, so you'll likely get them on Tuesday. If I have time before then, I'll recompile, but I believe I found the results mildly suggestive, though not condemning.
2. He waited for someone to take the lead on my wagon. I linked him in 31 (due to his wording in 30, which could have been a joke, but came off as nervous and self-aware), and he immediately responded in 32 (with a challenge) and 33 (with a smear). 34 was Karn voting me, and 35 is Punster's RVS, which includes a question to me. 36 is Generic's vote. What changed in the hour and a half since 33? Why didn't Generic vote in 32/33? The only thing that changed was Karn voting for me (without reason) and a mild question from Punster. This is opportunism on Generic's part, and isn't a town mindset.
3. He backpedals on wanting a claim. In 105, Punster puts me to L-2. Three minutes later, Generic highlights that it's L-2 and calls for a votecount. The primary purpose, I feel, in anyone highlighting that is to inform the L-2 player that he's at claim range (so the L-2 player can claim). 114 is where I call for patience. In 118, Generic unvotes:
Note that his reasoning for unvoting isn't tied to my request for patience; it's that it's too early in the game for a claim. If he really believed that, why wouldn't he unvote back in 106? He then fencesits and waffles with a ridiculously run-on sentence. If my response in 114 made him question his read on me, why wouldn't he say so? I think it's because he doesn't want to commit either way; by saying that his unvote is because it's too early for a claim, he's falling back on standards of the game, not because of the way I responded. Again, the reasoning behind the unvote, and especially the lack of consistency in that reasoning, shows a scum mindset.
I'll be happy to respond further when I next have a chance, but that may not be until Tuesday. Lots going on tomorrow, and I might just get a date day with my wife on Monday, so you lot would definitely come in a distant second on that one.
Unvote
What in case Generic and Seppel.
That seems very plausible. Not sure on the third.
Could still be Kosa but he was more likely mainly because of Cantrip. He also has a history of being... like this as town, so I wouldn't put it past him.
With how Wildfire's wagon happened I think he's town, despite having some weird/bad posts.
I don't particularly like BE's posting this game. Could very well be him. The one time I've played with him he was town, and he was very good at being obvtown. He hasn't done any of that yet. I wouldn't lynch him toDay since he has potential to start going obvtown on us in a Day or two. I'd say if he is still alive and is not obvtown by the end of Day 3 then he's scum.
For toDay we can lynch Generic or Seppel. I'll set this here:
Vote: Seppel
Anyway I'm willing to vote generic now as well as wildfire.
Vote Count:
Cantripmancer (2) - Paper_Punster, Antny223
Paper_Punster (1) - Burning_Earth
Wildfire393 (4)- fulcrum, Kosakosa, iRebel, Seppel
Generic (1) - Cantripmancer
Kosakosa (1) - Generic
Seppel - Sir Karn
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>likes the case on generic, votes seppel instead
oh hi scum
Well if I wasn't confused before that first question has confused me further. It sounded like you were scumreading Seppel in the early game which is why agreeing with his point about PP not scumreading him yet seemed off to me. If your not actually scumreading him then I guess it doesn't matter.
As for scumminess and good points being mutually exclusive, well their not always but I always take points off players I'm scumreading less sincerely than otherwise.
Fair enough. What way do you use it?
Well since this townread seems to no longer hold, I guess we'll dismiss this as just a weak early townread.
Cantrip - That's your Generic case. You couldn't even rustle up three points without using his rvs post. Also it takes like a minute to compare opening posts. It does not feel off. I would love to know what you saw in the six games he gave to make you think it was. Then this bit
The smear in question:
Is calling you out for something you actually did (and now admit to) a smear?
As for the rest of the point, I guess that's Generic's to respond to. (and reading on it appears he has)
As for the third point Generic backpeddling only really works if he asked for a claim. Saying he thinks your at L-2 and asking for a votecount can have many different interpretations. Wouldn't Generic checking where whether his count was correct before unvoting make just as much sense?
@Karn What about the formation of the Wildfire wagon makes you think he's town?
Based on my memories of uPick Generic seems fairly town.
Karn's vote needs a fair amount of explaining. Still wanna lynch Cantrip today though. Who's with me?
/reads Cantrip's case on Generic
Meh.
Antny: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=white knighting It's a general forum term, not just a mafia one. In this context, it refers to one person defending another without thinking their actions through. In iRebel's case, the better action would have been to wait for me to respond to Cantrip's naked vote instead of immediately attacking him.
Let's say a Cantrip lynch isn't going to happen. Who else would you like to lynch? Oh, and what do you think of Paper_Punster's case?
1. Actually you do, because what you said is scummy. You've openly admitted to the need to re-affirm your vote right after RVS, and your explanation doesn't pass muster. Why did you feel the need to? You weren't under pressure, you weren't being quizzed about it. The real explanation is simple: You felt nervous about leaving your RVS vote on a real wagon, so to counteract the scummy image you thought it would give, you decided to re-affirm that you were legitimately on the wagon. Which, coincidentally, is scummy, because it shows that you're concerned about how you'll be viewed, and it shows a pre-meditation in your actions.
2. You're not. The issue is, again, of mindset. Town are supposed to break down the game, to examine every nook and cranny to find scum. The first point, about how you thought Dagaen wasn't posting enough based off of your experience with him? That's town thinking, generally. But you stopped there, and that's where you messed up. You didn't call me out, despite the fact I had less posts than Dagaen. Hell, there were a few people that weren't posting all that much. But you ONLY called out Dagaen. You ONLY called out the guy you had experience with because it's safe, because you can point to something and say "hey! look! evidence!" You completely ignored someone like myself who, frankly, hadn't been posting enough. I am a complete unknown to you. Figuring out the unknown should be a key priority for town.
And yet you ignored the fact I, too, hadn't been posting much. You went after the safe target, Dagaen, with whom you could juxtapose his posting here v. his other game you shared. That's not something I'd consider a town mindset. That's "I'm trying to look town without screwing up" mindset, IMO — and it's what scum do.
More votes on Wildfire please.
Oh, and please explain what you've found scummy from me so far.
@Fulcrum: I call it calling out something I saw to be bad. My idea of white knighting can be found in uPick and WW2 Mafia.
@BE: I asked you a question. Answer it dammit.
@Cantrip: Your case on Generic isn't very compelling.
@Sir Karn: In light of what I have said re: Wildfire in this post, do you still think he could be town? Why the hell are you voting for Seppel over Generic given you like the case on him? Can you surmise why you think Seppel is scum?
@Antny: I want to lynch Wildfire. What do you think of him and why?
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Kosa: What are you thoughts on unaligned pairs?
I also said I'd be willing to lynch either toDay, so I don't see why it's a big deal.
Seppel's reaction in 221 is super scummy by the way - to anyone that didn't notice. Generic's vote is pretty terrible too.
The two quick opportunistic votes (one being from scum!Seppel, one being from potential-scum B_E) are what makes me think Wildfire is town.
So how is that a "scum slip" as you feel fond of calling it?
Erm what?
I've been thinking it ever since you had a crap case on Cantrip and kept trying to push the wagon after it was disproved. This just confirms it.
Unaligned pairs: people who probably aren't knowingly aligned. Do you have any thoughts on them?
Karn: Lay out why you stopped voting for Cantrip for me.
Can you explain to me how that is a 'scum' play as opposed to just 'a play you don't agree with'? It's not like I was taking advantage of something. And the only reason I would hypothetically avoid voting you and instead vote Seppel is if we were buddies and I didn't want to bus you - and I'm sure that isn't a point you're pushing.
@fulcrum: I stopped voting Cantrip because I don't feel like 211 is a scum!Cantrip post. Just the plain case/manner doesn't feel like something scum!Cantrip could muster, and I also like his points against Generic.
No one that wants to survive would ever admit a case against them was good whether it is or is not. So that means that there is not a single situation that you would ever see it as "not an issue."
I don't know what "ibterwst" is, but I just don't like talking to you. You're not a pleasant person to converse with. It's not "having to deal with [your] backlash." - there's nothing you could do to actually hurt me - I just would prefer to not talk to you.
Additionally, I find it funny that you think that Cantrip and I are scum together again, and that I am once again bussing him immediately out of the gate after how he complained about it last time.
I suppose I should amend that to "in a game of mafia."
• I did call you out; that's what questioning your reasoning was. Your response sounded sincere and makes me feel a little better about you.
• "And the only way that's scummy is through Generic's meta?" No, he's scummy for the other reasons I've given. Where (before 186) did I say he was scummy because of his meta?
This was complete RVS; why would you think otherwise?
Everything up to here was RVS.
And how will you ever be able to tell?
I was referring to the way I caught heat in Apocalypse, which is what the situation reminded me of. AE made an RVS post w/out a vote; I expressed suspicion, but didn’t vote, Proph called us both out.
I was mostly amused at the idea.
I was already suspicious of the way Generic had followed Karn onto the start of my wagon, so his reasoning (“I <3 Cantrip Wagons”) was suspect.
I was waiting for fulcrum’s response.
No, if he thought for some reason that I was an age greater or less than I am, it could explain some of his responses.
It was laziness, but it was also nonfluff. I have a horrible memory, and I didn’t think we had played together, but if he knew, I wouldn’t have to look it up.
Yeah, I could see why you might think that, but you’re wrong.
More when I have more time.
Also you keep pushing aside the fact that I said the manner and making of the case - no matter if it was on you or not (or if I agreed with it or not) - feels like town!Cantrip. The actual case against you was hardly the reason for my turn around; I just happened to like it.
Additionally, most of your case stems from you thinking I'm bussing Cantrip. Yet you're voting me instead of Cantrip. Putting the carriage in front of the horse etc.
@Everyone else: I thought this would be self-evident from the posts I was quoting/referencing, but I'm catching up as I can, in chronological order. It's rare for me to even post on weekends.
200: fulcrum continues to goodpost.
201: Except I don't get this. Why is Kosa Wildfire's buddy, fulcrum?
212: Generic's right; something's off with Karn's push away from Generic.
I disagree. An oddly worded opening post can be very telling, as was mine in Apoc.
And this makes it all ok because...? Seriously: what happened between 32-33 and 36 to make you vote?
How is this a counterargument? You expressed no reservations in 106, and showed no signs of abandoning ship. What does the length of time you were on my wagaon have to do with the price of tea in China?
Well, it's a good thing you went on record as waffling on my scumminess, isn't it? Also good that you didn't give any indication as to why you were highlighting L-2.
Where did Seppel request it?
Excuse me? Where did I claim a cast iron case? I said I believed you were scum, and that I felt I had solid points on you. I still believe both.
Isn't there an argumentative fallacy involving reducing arguments to the point that they sound minimal? The actions you took are behaviorally questionable.
Again with the meta. I'll have access to my notes tomorrow and I'll post what I found. Does it point unfallably to you being scum? No. The strength of my convictions lies in the other two points. The behavioral ones.
Defeatism is still a scumtrait. And townies can still be wrong. If you flip town, yeah, I ought to catch some flak, but I think I can make it clear that I sincerely believe that you're scum. So far, though, I've seen nothing to give me pause.
More as time permits.
Bah, I ought to be going to bed, but...
Yeah, I'm frustrated because I did actually take the time to look them up (and asked clarification, see the question to Generic regarding uPick, which he never answered, but that's understandable), but then left my notes where they were inaccessible. I remember seeing elements that caused concern, but, like I said, weren't scum-confirming. I'll take another look tomorrow.
The smear is the "that's quite an effort" part. He's intimating that I had to fabricate or make something up, which would imply that I'm trying to make him look bad. I wasn't; he's smearing.
Seriously? To what point? If he doesn't want a claim, then why didn't he unvote before I posted? If my post was why he unvoted, why wouldn't he say so?
Also, you never answered my question in 158; care to respond?
I'm frustrated that my points on Generic aren't being received better; I hate having to wait to find out if my instincts are correct.
Vote generic
Vote Count:
Cantripmancer (2) - Paper_Punster, Antny223
Paper_Punster (1) - Burning_Earth
Wildfire393 (4) - fulcrum, Kosakosa, iRebel, Seppel
Generic (1) - Cantripmancer
Seppel (1) - Sir Karn
Sir Karn (1) - Generic
With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch. Let me know if I made a mistake!
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With regards to 259.
I've seen Generic do the whole "lynch me and let the player pressuring me take the blunt tomorrow" attitude as town. He can do it as scum but it's hardly alignment indicative in this case.
The thing is I looked them up quickly as well and the opening post is not really out of the ordinary. Generic can make multiple line opening posts as town (for instance uPick, Sesame Street) and single post openers as scum (Marvel Madness II) so I still don't see how this post really offers us any insight into Generic's alignment.
I've seen (and undoubtedly committed) worse smears. At best it's a small point. Certainly a long way from being lynch-worthy.
I don't see an issue. He asked for a votecount and then unvoted after it. There was a gap of an hour and a half. It's not Generic could have know you were gonna post in that time. Anyway if Generic has already said he would unvote if you were at L-2 it's fair to expect that a player would hold off claiming.
Can you requote any unanswered question for me. Cheers.
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StaffThe fact that a Generic wagon is gaining traction is quite interesting. I've literally never seen that happen in the three games I've played with him.
I'm still not liking Burning Earth here, though. His normal frenetic and often spammy play is completely absent. He's managed to give even less of a reason for his reads than usual (see his Generic vote above). Vote Burning_Earth
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I know what those are, but your question is odd. You mean what I think about it theoretically speaking? If so, I have absolutely no idea. Never stopped to think about it.
What's the point of asking this anyway?
Ok, so:
1) Asking for Karn to explain his points on Cantrip further than "He's scum because meta" and;
2) Pointing out the obvious, glaring misrep you and Seppel went with on Karn's vote in #212 equals to scum.
Answer my question dammit. Refusing to answer questions without a valid reason is anti-town. So get with the damn program.
Any response to my last rebuttal? Or are you just going to admit to being scum already?
Why is the Generic wagon interesting? Day 1 Generic wagons are close to being a Mafia Law.
@ Generic: I did post a few pages back that I'd be semi-V/LA, for the record.
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That's a terrible answer.
Why do you say that like it's a bad thing?
What reason do you have to assume he still feels that way?
Before answering this, I should inform you I'm not actually new. I've got quite a few games under my belt. But my answer is that I wasn't intending to persue him just then. I changed my mind due to his fluff/trying to link us when he flips scum.
I think I answered the second question already with my post on Cantrip's early play. As for the first one, no one.
So your intent was to insert fake aggressiveness into the post? And to specifially tailor your post to make people think that you don't have access to the scumchat? Did you literally just admit to attempting to fake being town?
Currently? Yes. His posts under pressure have seemed genuine.
>catches scum, doesn't vote him
I'd love to hear fulcrum's deconstruction of my post on Cantrip.
I hate Karn's 212. I'll pursue Cantrip later. Karns's whole "I like the Generic case, let's vote Seppel" makes me gag. Unvote, Vote Karn
I'll respond to Cantrip's 247 when I have more time to sit here at the computer.
T/S list:
Town
iRebel
Kosa
Leaning Town
Dagaen
Wildfire
Antny
Null
Generic
Seppel
fulcrum
Lean Scum
Burning_Earth
Scum
Cantrip
Karn
HolierSmarter-Than-Thou card every time you get run up (or even cased). If you are town, you're not helping anything by egging on your own D1 lynch. Even the assertion that it'll help find scum I find questionable, as many scum would shy from the noise associated with your wagon. If I'm wrong, guess what? I'm allowed to be because I'm town. Might I get run up for pressuring/casing a player who turns out to be town? Sure. Might it lose my team the game in the long run? Sure. But unlike some, I don't claim to be expert at this game, so I do my best and learn from the results as best I can. And then I move on.Like I said before, I thought it was obvious that I was catching up. Given that the posts I was quoting were from before the case I put forth, why would you assume that it was anything else?
Hmm, why are you following Seppel's lead?
How does this make any sense? If you hadn't been v/la, I would have just posted what I had.
You're leaving a third option out: that my wagon would be good enough without you to respond to it that scum could run with it to a mislynch. Frickin' hell, you're obnoxious. In fact, after your utter scorn for my lack of ability in Star Wars, I suppose I should feel honored that you even briefly considered me capable. At anything.
It felt self-conscious; it's not like you haven't been playing. You have, just under other labels.
The part where you weren't willing to commit a vote until someone else did. Why wait for Karn to be the first vote; if you wanted pressure on me, why not start it yourself?
Baloney in bold. I had already refused to claim by the time you unvoted.
It's because I have no expansion at this time.
Oh. My. Frickin. Gosh. Where did I say I have a great meta read on you? Be specific.
Well, you've got the indignation down pat, that's for sure. My only agenda is to catch scum; let's pin down that vague smear, shall we? What agenda do you suspect?
Yeah, I've experienced his "lynch me as town" rant before, and I reread his posts in Star Wars (scum), and he wasn't nearly as "lynch me!!111!"
See below for my thoughts on his opening posts.
Individually, no; taken as part of the bigger picture, I find it worth pursuing.
Wait, what? I did post in that time, and I know he saw my post because he responded to the question I posed to him in that post. My concern is that he was conveniently vague in his mentioning the L-2, and then used a game standard ("too early for a claim") to back off.
Where did he say that before I refused to claim?
@Antny: The question from 158 was "Why did you think it was “fake meta reading”?"
Spelling this out is not a town action.
Ok:
Apocalypse (Town)
Sesame Street (Town)
uPick (Town)
Marvel 2 (Scum, voted a buddy):
Majora’s Mask (Scum)
@Burning_Earth: List the reasons you have for voting Generic, please.
@Kosa: Summarize the reasons behind the Wildfire wagon for me, will you?
Because I know that at least some of it is wrong.
No offense to Karn, but I think if I had pulled scum with him again this soon, I would have replaced out in my first post.
Remember what you said when you first joined the Wildfire wagon? Here, let me quote it for you.
Just look at that reaction. It wasn't "Wildfire is scummy, I should pressure him" because you would have stated your reasons for voting or asked him some question. No, it was "[Wildfire] just towncleared Daegen and Cantrip, I'd better vote for him." But hey, maybe you actually are just really into unaligned pairs, and that's why they struck you as the most important thing to write down. But you don't even care about them, theoretical wise or by pointing more out in the thread. The obvious answer to this little problem is that you saw your scummate starting to go down (confirmation bias would have made his posts look worse to you than to the rest of us, amplifying that fear) and then you saw him starting to clear townies. You panicked, decided you needed to look town by attacking him and thought you'd get the towncred for pointing out townclears that you thought would be blatantly obvious to everyone.
tl:dr: Kosa and Wildfire are scummates. Stop the Cantrip/Generic/Karn/Seppel/whatever smackdown and start voting for scum.