I feel like if Az were town, that the correct play would be to look for the people who bit on to my garbage Tammy push - but he's not, and prevented any semblance of that occurring by heading me off at the pass.
Fate is 100% town and that's extremely reassuring to read on page 1. As in, if Fate gladiated me, I would vote myself because he is that incredibly town (and as of page 1, townier than Tammy!).
(Tammy is town on the top of Page 2).
Azrael also earns the distinction of an early obvious town read.
dC, I would expect you to be more familiar with Azrael's meta than I am. Do you think that overtheatrics is a scumtell in particular for him? Personally, it comes off to me like he's feeling good about the game, he's excited by the game: I haven't seen him be able to capture that same excitement in his scum games, but it's something that's usually present in the majority of his towngames. Do you think overtheatrics is a scumtell in general?
Entrapment tactics... he's pushing on Iso for running a bad gambit. I don't really see a whole lot of entrapment tactics in the midst of that, but I might be wrong! Show me where.
FATE, COME WITH ME
(((i think dgb might be town also)))
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Can we please just deal with getting Azrael lynched before we try and lynch people who might be bussing him? Putting the cart in front of the wagon like you're doing basically never works out in benefit of the town.
I feel like if Az were town, that the correct play would be to look for the people who bit on to my garbage Tammy push - but he's not, and prevented any semblance of that occurring by heading me off at the pass.
I called your case garbage because it was garbage, and I wasn't the first to call it out. (That'd be Hookerpunch). And I didn't start with the assumption you were gambiting - that only became obvious after you shouted "hey guys, this is a gambit" to the entire thread and gave your cunning plan away. Which, if you were actually gambiting, would be an extremely silly thing for a townie to do. Maybe you're that silly, but I think more highly of you than that. And I'd hardly classify you as low-hanging fruit. I think bad players react badly to people behave weirdly, and I think you needed a bit of time to find your legs, but by this point in your career, I'd imagine you've found your stride.
Your scum game still needs some work, but clearly you've mastered the art of trying to talk loudly and long enough that everyone gets tired of reading the two people fighting back and forth until you get a free pass, no?
I mean like..this game is exactly how Iso always acts as town, and anyone with more than 2 games experience with him(that's you Azrael) knows it. You are very much grasping at straws here, and it shows.
It should probably be a big sign to the MS crowd that almost every other MTGS player is currently voting for the same MTGS player. He IS scum, and it's easier for us to tell because we know him better than you.
I guess there's not that many people even on MTGS who are familiar with my meta anymore. Its designed to be weird, playful, and a tad provocative. Its designed to get reactions out of people by overstating the seriousness of cases, and by attracting players into attacking the guy who's behaving strangely. But it's also designed to convey how I actually feel to people who are paying attention - which in this case, is happiness at returning to playing mafia for the first time in a long time, not having to play as mafia AGAIN, and having a bunch of cool new people to contend with.
Its meant to make the game not boring, because not boring games are not only more fun, but they're games the town is going to win. Because people are talking, and taking stances...and making mistakes.
I expected to get more people from the MS side of things to potentially take the bait, but whatevs, I think we've got a fairly useful amount of data at this point.
I think it was Taredas who said that it looked like I wasn't taking the game seriously and that that wasn't the Azrael that he'd been led to expect to see. Serious, dreadnought-post Az is definitely one aspect of my personality, but this is the other, and the two of them are far from inseparable. Whenever I may appear to be simply goofing off, I'm also taking the game quite seriously. It's a game after all, and there's no good reason not to send the mafia to the gallows with a nice, broad grin plastered across your face.
dC, I would expect you to be more familiar with Azrael's meta than I am. Do you think that overtheatrics is a scumtell in particular for him? Personally, it comes off to me like he's feeling good about the game, he's excited by the game: I haven't seen him be able to capture that same excitement in his scum games, but it's something that's usually present in the majority of his towngames. Do you think overtheatrics is a scumtell in general?
Entrapment tactics... he's pushing on Iso for running a bad gambit. I don't really see a whole lot of entrapment tactics in the midst of that, but I might be wrong! Show me where.
FATE, COME WITH ME
(((i think dgb might be town also)))
Azrael is trying way too hard to make the really obvious point that Tammy is town.
I find it childishly amusing to point out how blindingly townie Tammy is in multiple places. That's a scum tell?
Quote from "cyan" »
This is especially apparent when you compare it to how much work he put into voting Taredas.
Scummity scum scum. Vote Azrael
Should I pan this particular prong on the basis that I haven't actually voted for Taredas, because you've forgotten how much I exaggerate cases, or because it's based on your bogus initial point?
As for the Iso case, I'm actually mildly less frightened of him after his more recent showings, and it's certainly true that he gambits like crazy. What I haven't seen him do, and what struck me as unusual for him, was how he started making threats when I panned his attack on Tammy. That doesn't seem typical of him to me - does it to you?
So, Az is exactly right: My push on Tammy is not genuine. And there's absolutely no need for townAz to pre-empt my rebuttal - that I was pushing for reactions.
Azrael himself, ladies and gentlemen, said the following:
Iso is really, really good at generating reactions. Ditto on Seppel. Drawback tends to come from when they're over-committed, and distracted by other games going on. They also can tend to attract lynch attention, and aren't always the best at persuading others to see what they see. Still, as town, I love to see these guys turn up on my side, because the reactions they generate are phenomenal, and Seppel's gut reads in particular are extremely solid.
If Az knows that I'm "really, really good at generating reactions", then why would he intentionally impede my reaction-generating? Az is in unfamiliar territory with at least half of the players in this game - he may not know who may or may not have been inclined to bite on the Iso line.
"But Iso, it was so obviously fake!"
Then why did post after post go by until Az stepped in, with no one calling me out? Seeing as I start off most of my games doing something differently to garner reactions and see players' mindsets early on, it baffles me that Az has somehow "determined" (no doubt through some occult ritual involving blood sacrifices; how else could he know?) that I am scum. I mean, there would be no way for Az to see my motive at this point in the game, given that I hadn't gone anywhere with my scheme at that point intentionally. TownAz would be trying to figure out Iso at this point - not deciding he was scum.
This is the heart of your case - that I somehow destroyed your ability to gain reactions. BS. I called your case bad - that doesn't put a halt on getting valid reactions from the thread. What stopped you from getting valid reactions was claiming that you were gambiting in an absurdly obvious way.
And you're completely right - town Az would, and is, trying to figure you out, at this very moment, and that was the primary point of my attacking you. Frankly, I didn't rank whatever potential reactions that you almost certainly weren't getting out of the form-letter questions for CED and KOL nearly as highly as I rated the possibility to poke YOU into providing some reactions which would reveal your alignment. Because if you are town, I want to know it, and if you're not, we're going to kill you. Probably on day one.
And yeah, I know you like gambits. And I expect gambits from you under either alignment, because you know that we know that you like gambits. Problem is, this looks more to me like you were going through the motions instead of actually putting your heart into it, this time. And I don't like fakery, not one bit.
You don't like 'fakery'? lolwut? You run dumb fake random gambits on a regular basis, as both alignments. And I would say that 'just going through the motions' is precisely what you were guilty of early in the game. So please, tell us more about how you don't like your own behavior in this game.
I was at Wal-Mart and saw Watchmen on sale for $4 on the day this game started. I of course picked it up. I also got some Angry Birds Pop Rocks - not because it's Angry Birds brand, but because it's green apple-flavored and apples are my favorite thing in the world. Maybe I'm a Shinigami? Anyway, I just dumped all 6 bags in my mouth at once. TIME TO GET WRITING
Can we please just deal with getting Azrael lynched before we try and lynch people who might be bussing him? Putting the cart in front of the wagon like you're doing basically never works out in benefit of the town.
I don't remember changing my vote from Az - do you remember me doing that?
So, Az is exactly right: My push on Tammy is not genuine. And there's absolutely no need for townAz to pre-empt my rebuttal - that I was pushing for reactions.
Azrael himself, ladies and gentlemen, said the following:
Iso is really, really good at generating reactions. Ditto on Seppel. Drawback tends to come from when they're over-committed, and distracted by other games going on. They also can tend to attract lynch attention, and aren't always the best at persuading others to see what they see. Still, as town, I love to see these guys turn up on my side, because the reactions they generate are phenomenal, and Seppel's gut reads in particular are extremely solid.
If Az knows that I'm "really, really good at generating reactions", then why would he intentionally impede my reaction-generating? Az is in unfamiliar territory with at least half of the players in this game - he may not know who may or may not have been inclined to bite on the Iso line.
"But Iso, it was so obviously fake!"
Then why did post after post go by until Az stepped in, with no one calling me out? Seeing as I start off most of my games doing something differently to garner reactions and see players' mindsets early on, it baffles me that Az has somehow "determined" (no doubt through some occult ritual involving blood sacrifices; how else could he know?) that I am scum. I mean, there would be no way for Az to see my motive at this point in the game, given that I hadn't gone anywhere with my scheme at that point intentionally. TownAz would be trying to figure out Iso at this point - not deciding he was scum.
This is the heart of your case - that I somehow destroyed your ability to gain reactions. BS. I called your case bad - that doesn't put a halt on getting valid reactions from the thread. What stopped you from getting valid reactions was claiming that you were gambiting in an absurdly obvious way.
And you're completely right - town Az would, and is, trying to figure you out, at this very moment, and that was the primary point of my attacking you. Frankly, I didn't rank whatever potential reactions that you almost certainly weren't getting out of the form-letter questions for CED and KOL nearly as highly as I rated the possibility to poke YOU into providing some reactions which would reveal your alignment. Because if you are town, I want to know it, and if you're not, we're going to kill you. Probably on day one.
And yeah, I know you like gambits. And I expect gambits from you under either alignment, because you know that we know that you like gambits. Problem is, this looks more to me like you were going through the motions instead of actually putting your heart into it, this time. And I don't like fakery, not one bit.
Actually, no - the crux of my case is "Az is not a bad player and knows how I play and get results, therefore the fact that he is playing badly and inhibiting my results means he is likely scum (as townAz is not a bumbling buffoon like you're pretending to be so convincingly in this game) in addition to not following up his (or my) attacks in a townie way, and to top it all off, he's fishing for my role - so let's lynch him."
But I mean, you're welcome to strawman all you want. You're only a vote away from claim range, after all.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
You don't like 'fakery'? lolwut? You run dumb fake random gambits on a regular basis, as both alignments. And I would say that 'just going through the motions' is precisely what you were guilty of early in the game. So please, tell us more about how you don't like your own behavior in this game.
Gambits can be authentic or inauthentic too, Cyan. If someone is running a gambit, they can do it in either an authentic townie fashion or an inauthentic scummy fashion, and I don't count the former as fakery.
Btw, whatever happened to your Godzilla avvie? You know, the one with the cute and unswervingly applicable caption?
Actually, no - the crux of my case is "Az is not a bad player and knows how I play and get results, therefore the fact that he is playing badly and inhibiting my results means he is likely scum (as townAz is not a bumbling buffoon like you're pretending to be so convincingly in this game) in addition to not following up his (or my) attacks in a townie way, and to top it all off, he's fishing for my role - so let's lynch him."
But I mean, you're welcome to strawman all you want. You're only a vote away from claim range, after all.
Perhaps you're failing to grasp that my respect for your play is not infinite, ineffable, or unvarying? More likely you're just exaggerating the hell out of your case for fun or ad homming me for reactions, or maybe to tilt an easy lynch. Which is cool, I get that, but you could at least confine yourself to accusations that are remotely close to reality. 'Spose that isn't good scum play, though.
I especially like the way I'm supposed to be straw-manning you for accurately summing up, describing, and responding to your post. That's an especially slick Machiavellan touch, there.
I'm not in a hurry to claim just to sate people's boredom or impatience. If people seriously want this to be a lynch, they should decide whether the behavior's enough to warrant that, not just ask for a role-claim to help them decide and vomit role info uselessly into the thread. There are a lot of people who have yet to adequately justify their BS votes. Chill.
Nice attempting at stalling. No dice. When you're at L-2, you claim, and you know it. You making this post completely cements my feeling that you are scum. No lynch is acceptable today other than this one.
Nice attempting at stalling. No dice. When you're at L-2, you claim, and you know it. You making this post completely cements my feeling that you are scum. No lynch is acceptable today other than this one.
...and you should also look up my past stance on when it's appropriate to seek a role-claim, and when it's symptomatic of a lazy or dysfunctional town. I don't think everyone on my wagon is necessarily serious, and I certainly don't think the wagon's been well-justified, and until I'm disabused of one or the other of those notions, I'm in no hurry.
If your theory is that I'm scum who's panicked about how to false-claim in a setup that's patterned off of a basic, IIRC, well, lol?
Nice attempting at stalling. No dice. When you're at L-2, you claim, and you know it. You making this post completely cements my feeling that you are scum. No lynch is acceptable today other than this one.
...and you should also look up my past stance on when it's appropriate to seek a role-claim, and when it's symptomatic of a lazy or dysfunctional town. I don't think everyone on my wagon is necessarily serious, and I certainly don't think the wagon's been well-justified, and until I'm disabused of one or the other of those notions, I'm in no hurry.
If your theory is that I'm scum who's panicked about how to false-claim in a setup that's patterned off of a basic, IIRC, well, lol?
I'm pretty sure you're not the one who decides when you get lynched. Now claim.
I'm not in a hurry to claim just to sate people's boredom or impatience. If people seriously want this to be a lynch, they should decide whether the behavior's enough to warrant that, not just ask for a role-claim to help them decide and vomit role info uselessly into the thread. There are a lot of people who have yet to adequately justify their BS votes. Chill.
We have decided that - which is why we've voted you into claim range. You know the procedure - if you're a PR, you claim and save us the trouble of lynching you. If you're not, or you're scum, let us know so we can take you out.
Nice attempting at stalling. No dice. When you're at L-2, you claim, and you know it. You making this post completely cements my feeling that you are scum. No lynch is acceptable today other than this one.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
It's appropriate. And the idea that anyone on your wagon is 'not serious' is super-lulsy. Every person voting you has stated specific reasoning for doing so; nobody is just hanging out voting you for fun. And it is a very rare occurence when someone thinks that a wagon on them is 'well justified'. But WE think so, and ultimately that is what matters most.
And no, I don't think you're panicking about how to false-claim. I think that you're dead scum and you know it, and are just hoping that your wagon dissipates, because you don't have a claim to get you out of being dead.
It's appropriate. And the idea that anyone on your wagon is 'not serious' is super-lulsy. Every person voting you has stated specific reasoning for doing so; nobody is just hanging out voting you for fun. And it is a very rare occurence when someone thinks that a wagon on them is 'well justified'. But WE think so, and ultimately that is what matters most.
And no, I don't think you're panicking about how to false-claim. I think that you're dead scum and you know it, and are just hoping that your wagon dissipates, because you don't have a claim to get you out of being dead.
And I think you're trying to rush this much too fast for my comfort.
DC hasn't been in to explain even the meaning of "entrapment" and "overtheatrics". Thor seems to be voting me because other people are voting me. Taredas has disappeared. Ced says I'm lazy, wihtout even understanding what I was actually doing. You're tunneling, because that's what you always do, and Iso is apparently so upset that *I* ruined his brilliancy that he thinks I need a spanking via lynch.
I'm going to wait for DC, Taredas, and Ced, and if they still want to push this wagon to completion, I'm going to make damn sure that their reasoning is on the record before you and Iso rush an obscenely fast lynch for reasons that most of the wagon can't even coherently articulate.
We're good players, Az. (At least we'd like to think so.) Why are you so worried we aren't going to scrutinize the people on your wagon if you flip town?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Yeah but Iso you know how I am. You've seen me play before, don't try to pull the 'lol I don't know how you play' card. It won't work. Especially with five players who have played with me before--some quite extensively.
Also for those interested in such things, third vote on the wagon..?
We're good players, Az. (At least we'd like to think so.) Why are you so worried we aren't going to scrutinize the people on your wagon if you flip town?
I think the fact that you don't seem to see any need to scrutinize them beforehand highlights a pretty clear difference in how much you care about doing good analysis this game.
You're familiar with my more recent townie games. In most of them, we pushed to get the game essentially solved and the majority of the scum pinpointed by the end of day one. Now just contrast that with the procedure you're pushing for here, where you're content to rush a lynch in an embarrassingly short time span, without even having analyzed the dynamics of the first serious wagon of the day.
So no, I'm not inclined to trust in your wisdom, particularly given that you're completely misinterpreting my behavior, your case is based on a completely subjective fantasy of what the 'good play' for a situation was- and because I disagreed, I'm scum, and you're somehow dragging enough gullible/bored townies and scum behind you to make it stick - for the moment. So, no given time, I don't think you're going to have the votes, because your case is an awful, careless, and utterly superficial hack job, and I'm guessing there are at least two scum on my wagon, and I want them dead.
*frowns* I still don't have a firm read on Iso. As incredibly annoying as he's being, there seems to be a decent chance he's just choking on his own ego and genuinely outraged at my intervention against his Tammy wagon, and that's what caused him to start talking like a Bond villain. He's just been so adversarial though - I get the sense that it's less about caring what my alignment is, and more about Iso vs. Azrael.
Out of the remainder of the wagon, DC, Taredas, and Ced have all gotten really quiet and sat back while Cyan and Iso do all the heavy lifting, and probably that's a more clear-cut warning sign. If the town is going to implode without them having to put themselves onto the radar in a major way, the mafia are going to be happy to let that happen.
It feels like Cyan doesn't particularly care what I say. Kind of like Iso, every time I shoot down one of his voting rationales he goes looking for a fresh reason to keep right on going. Getting the bit in his teeth is pretty typical for Cyan, but this is the first time I can remember being the subject of his day-one tunneling, and I'm finding it a little hard to be objective in evaluating whether the fervency and tone is consistent with his past behavior or not. I guess it probably is, but that doesn't make it any more pleasant to deal with, from this end of things.
Yeah but Iso you know how I am. You've seen me play before, don't try to pull the 'lol I don't know how you play' card. It won't work. Especially with five players who have played with me before--some quite extensively.
Yeah, I've seen you play once, and weren't you scum? I don't even remember how that game went in its entirety because I was so focused on killing Gaiden and that one person with the Touhou avatar. So you can't say "ISO U TTLY NO HAO I PALY!!!11one" when your play wasn't even a factor in my mind in that game, much like here.
Quote from HookerPunch »
Also for those interested in such things, third vote on the wagon..?
Good to know you're going to be absolutely useless the entire game.
Okay. And this is based on? More importantly, can you give us any reason why we should be listening to you at this point in the game, when you've displayed what can demonstrably be qualified as purely scummy behavior?
We're good players, Az. (At least we'd like to think so.) Why are you so worried we aren't going to scrutinize the people on your wagon if you flip town?
I think the fact that you don't seem to see any need to scrutinize them beforehand highlights a pretty clear difference in how much you care about doing good analysis this game.
You're familiar with my more recent townie games. In most of them, we pushed to get the game essentially solved and the majority of the scum pinpointed by the end of day one. Now just contrast that with the procedure you're pushing for here, where you're content to rush a lynch in an embarrassingly short time span, without even having analyzed the dynamics of the first serious wagon of the day.
So no, I'm not inclined to trust in your wisdom, particularly given that you're completely misinterpreting my behavior, your case is based on a completely subjective fantasy of what the 'good play' for a situation was- and because I disagreed, I'm scum, and you're somehow dragging enough gullible/bored townies and scum behind you to make it stick - for the moment. So, no given time, I don't think you're going to have the votes, because your case is an awful, careless, and utterly superficial hack job, and I'm guessing there are at least two scum on my wagon, and I want them dead.
And I think you're full of crap. You've seen me play before and know that unless I dedicate several hours to a single mid-Day-1 post or everything lines itself up in such a way that makes the scum painfully obvious that I'm perfectly content with rushing into a lynch and letting the pieces fall into place once I know the first lynch and Nightkill's alignments. I work on reactions, results, game flow, and interactions. If one of the best players I've ever seen play is displaying sufficiently scummy behavior on Day 1 to draw the votes of several other players that are considered excellent in different respects, including my own vote, then why on earth would I want to slow down? My ego might be showing right now, but I've had a strong start and I don't believe I'll be getting lynched in this game, which is a refreshing change from the other two Crosstown games where, in the first one, I was playing differently from usual, and the second one, I was scum playing badly. I've had a recent break from Mafia, which has rejuvenated me from my burnout slightly, and I'm excited about how this game is gonna turn out. (inb4 spectator chat "and Iso is making the game all about himself again.") You said that we've garnered enough information to solve the game Day 1, but I don't see you utilizing it if you truly believe that. And if you still think I'm scum, you need to take off the OMGUS blinders and be productive.
If anyone that isn't Az thinks I'm tunneling or needs convincing, I can take a look at Az's games since I've joined the site and see how the language and tactics there compare to here; any takers on that?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I don't want to come off as being dismissive of you, Iso, but I really don't know the current iteration of your playstyle nearly as well as you know it yourself. I know you like gambits, but that doesn't mean that I trust you to never be scum and never make bad cases that need to be exposed. If someone asked me what your scum game looks like, I would have said brash and impetuous and not that difficult to spot, and that's what I saw when you started laying into Tammy. You seem to expect that I would assume the best out of you from the very start - when I haven't played with you in what, over a year maybe, and had absolutely no reason to put you in my town column?
Maybe people nowadays walk around in awe of you as one of the better mafia players in the subforum, and are deathly afraid of tripping you up. I don't really know, because I haven't really had my pulse on the game-play in the subforum for a good long time now. You ARE one of the better players, and I was one one of the first people to rate you pretty highly, but the level of respect and deference you seem to be expecting me to have had for your play is pretty unrealistic for me to show, in-game, towards any player I can think of. I don't have strong reasons to be confident you're town now, and I certainly didn't at about ten posts into the game. And if you think I should have, you're deluding yourself.
As for the start of our information development, no, I don't think we have enough information to solve the game right now - half of the thread has barely posted any meaningful content. I think we have the chance to start building on these foundations to get enough critical information mass to clear four or five townies and formulate a solid zone of inquiry. But only if I don't wring your neck first for saying egotistical crap like "why don't you be start being productive", when you're so keen to win the argument that you want a page six lynch without giving people the time to even answer my questions about why they're voting me. You want productivity? Then put your ego and your impatience back in your pants, take a hard look at what you're really doing here and why you're doing it, and play more like someone who cares more about what will best position this town to win the game, and less like someone who got miffed because I don't trust your judgment or your alignment blindly.
Well I was definitely trying to respond to Azrael's last post there. This software is the worst. I'm fascinated that a random guy running a VBulletin website can get bought out by a multi-million dollar company and the overall user experience just becomes worse in every way(or at least every way that I've experienced so far). What the actual ****.
I cannot /barn this post hard enough. (****ing interface just ****ing ate my post TWICE. **** this noise. I've said it before, I'll say it again - I don't think Mafia on MTGS survives for more than a year with the new, "improved" interface.)
I mean like..this game is exactly how Iso always acts as town, and anyone with more than 2 games experience with him(that's you Azrael) knows it. You are very much grasping at straws here, and it shows.
It should probably be a big sign to the MS crowd that almost every other MTGS player is currently voting for the same MTGS player. He IS scum, and it's easier for us to tell because we know him better than you.
Nice attempting at stalling. No dice. When you're at L-2, you claim, and you know it. You making this post completely cements my feeling that you are scum. No lynch is acceptable today other than this one.
These, too. (I've had Iso as likely town since he made that "NO BRAKES" push on Tammy, and almost certain town ever since he attacked Azrael - Iso has trouble cloaking his tone as scum, this is Iso's town tone.)
@Tar - whether or not you do or don't have access what do you think of DGB leaping on Tammy for her excuses and ignoring yours? Are yours just that much more believable or something?
It's DGB? She was being inconsistent, yes, but that says nothing about her alignment.
(Her more recent posts, on the other hand... see below.)
I'm not sure what to make of his Iso case. It's either a genuine suspicion - or a pissing contest, an attempt to get one over Iso for some reason. Kind of looks like the latter to me. But I guess it depends what Az is truly intending it to be.
Explain the underlined to me, please - if Az is scum, then doesn't Az's Iso case *have* to be an attempt to get one over Iso?
I feel like if Az were town, that the correct play would be to look for the people who bit on to my garbage Tammy push - but he's not, and prevented any semblance of that occurring by heading me off at the pass.
That makes no sense.
Why not? Looks to me like Iso's saying that's what he'd expect a town Azrael to do... and Azrael's not doing that, which suggests he's not town.
Azrael is trying way too hard to make the really obvious point that Tammy is town. This is especially apparent when you compare it to how much work he put into voting Taredas.
Azrael is claim-stalling (L-2 with a player who unvoted only because of the MTGS "claim at L-2" custom)... and you completely ignore it? Why? You're inconsistent, yes, but not usually *this* inconsistent.
So, counter-factual vague assertions (Cyan), awful meta arguments and OMGUS (taredas/iso), interpreting jokes as though they were serious (Taredas), and I don't even know how to respond to DC's point because I don't know what he means by entrapment and apparently he's had selective amnesia regarding things like World Dom 2 and most every town-start I've had, ever. Any other filler cliches and excuse-cases anyone needs to work out of their system? Now's your chance. Everybody's doing it.
Az responds to the case against him by going negative, dismissing the attack against him, trying to defuse it without actually engaging it (note the last two sentences). He doesn't explain *why* he thinks the case is wrong. Why? Because he can't - the case is *correct*.
(Also, note the "ooh, this will be fun!" - I've seen way too many scum respond to attacks like that.)
I guess there's not that many people even on MTGS who are familiar with my meta anymore. Its designed to be weird, playful, and a tad provocative. Its designed to get reactions out of people by overstating the seriousness of cases, and by attracting players into attacking the guy who's behaving strangely. But it's also designed to convey how I actually feel to people who are paying attention - which in this case, is happiness at returning to playing mafia for the first time in a long time, not having to play as mafia AGAIN, and having a bunch of cool new people to contend with.
A) I'm familiar with overstating cases to check reactions - I do that myself (see, well, most of my D1 play in Redux Mirror, plus who knows how many games from back when 'Scum was still a fun place to play). The way you're attacking Iso? That's not town overstating a case to check reactions - you're too indirect, and you're not scrutinizing any players EXCEPT Iso.
B) I don't see happiness in your posts here. I see resignation papered over with a faked smile and manipulation.
I think it was Taredas who said that it looked like I wasn't taking the game seriously and that that wasn't the Azrael that he'd been led to expect to see. Serious, dreadnought-post Az is definitely one aspect of my personality, but this is the other, and the two of them are far from inseparable. Whenever I may appear to be simply goofing off, I'm also taking the game quite seriously. It's a game after all, and there's no good reason not to send the mafia to the gallows with a nice, broad grin plastered across your face.
Got an example of yourself behaving this way as town? See, I remember you being non-serious early on in Redux Invit - but the tone was different, and it transitioned into your serious mode as you got more reads - as opposed to OtR/Cyberspace, where your tone was like this for the entire game.
This is especially apparent when you compare it to how much work he put into voting Taredas.
Scummity scum scum. Vote Azrael
Should I pan this particular prong on the basis that I haven't actually voted for Taredas, because you've forgotten how much I exaggerate cases, or because it's based on your bogus initial point?
Also, the internet seems to have eaten my quote where Taredas proves he's scum. His first one in this thread. I'm too lazy to go back and quote it. Deal with it. vote Taredas. Not a random vote. Don't worry Iso, you're next.
As for the Iso case, I'm actually mildly less frightened of him after his more recent showings, and it's certainly true that he gambits like crazy. What I haven't seen him do, and what struck me as unusual for him, was how he started making threats when I panned his attack on Tammy. That doesn't seem typical of him to me - does it to you?
Oh hey look. Az seems to back off of Iso slightly, then goes right back on the attack with new reasoning - read: scum who's trying to get the mislynch but can't commit 100% because he'll take too much blowback.
Also, note the tone here. Az is indirect - Iso's behavior is "unusual", "not typical". That's not how he attacked people in Redux Invit - he was much more direct, much more willing to call people scum to their face. Here, he's reluctant to do that.
Why? Because he's scum and *KNOWS* that Iso isn't actually scum. He doesn't believe his attack.
You don't like 'fakery'? lolwut? You run dumb fake random gambits on a regular basis, as both alignments. And I would say that 'just going through the motions' is precisely what you were guilty of early in the game. So please, tell us more about how you don't like your own behavior in this game.
Gambits can be authentic or inauthentic too, Cyan. If someone is running a gambit, they can do it in either an authentic townie fashion or an inauthentic scummy fashion, and I don't count the former as fakery.
Btw, whatever happened to your Godzilla avvie? You know, the one with the cute and unswervingly applicable caption?
Note the underlined sentence. It's pure conflict avoidance - trying to distract/divert Cyan instead of actually addressing his arguments. You know, like scum do.
Actually, no - the crux of my case is "Az is not a bad player and knows how I play and get results, therefore the fact that he is playing badly and inhibiting my results means he is likely scum (as townAz is not a bumbling buffoon like you're pretending to be so convincingly in this game) in addition to not following up his (or my) attacks in a townie way, and to top it all off, he's fishing for my role - so let's lynch him."
But I mean, you're welcome to strawman all you want. You're only a vote away from claim range, after all.
Perhaps you're failing to grasp that my respect for your play is not infinite, ineffable, or unvarying? More likely you're just exaggerating the hell out of your case for fun or ad homming me for reactions, or maybe to tilt an easy lynch. Which is cool, I get that, but you could at least confine yourself to accusations that are remotely close to reality. 'Spose that isn't good scum play, though.
I especially like the way I'm supposed to be straw-manning you for accurately summing up, describing, and responding to your post. That's an especially slick Machiavellan touch, there.
My little Iso is all grown up now. *teary eyes*
Again, look at how Azrael phrases his attacks. Look at the tone. He's indirect, calling everything scummy without coming out and directly saying Iso is scum.
This isn't how a townie pushes a lynch they believe in. This isn't how Azrael pushed ZDS/Axelrod/DYH/Cyan in Redux Invit. This is how scum push a mislynch target - like Az pushed Iso in Cyberspace, or AE in OtR.
I'm going to have a proper post up later today. I worked on my garden yesterday and am feeling rather zen right now and not doing anything with mafia for a couple days feels amazing but I want to second tar's concerns about dgb. Last night before I went to bed, I skimmed and saw her post about zen being scum and was like huh no pitchforks over the claim stalling, that's weird. I wonder if anyone will notice it.
So, kinda want to strengthen my town read in at reads from there. Look at crosstown 2. Look at how she reacted to claim stallers. Her completely ignoring it here is very worrisome.
Anyway just woke up and am heading off to work, but I will have something up in a little bit.
Oh but nacho in case you check in: you called me town from the top of page two. I know you can read me pretty well but it doesn't concern you at all that I made the statement feel free to lynch me?
Oh also also nati punch: why did you call me town and seem to follow along with the ced/Tammy could be cross bussing theory? Did you really not see why I voted ced?
And I'm really out of time now. I'll comment on the larger issue later.
No pitchfork over the claim stalling, the L-2 happened on what, page 5? I have a town read on Azrael, and I'm not fond or forcing claims this early in the game. If this were page 20, it'd be a different story.
No pitchfork over the claim stalling, the L-2 happened on what, page 5? I have a town read on Azrael, and I'm not fond or forcing claims this early in the game. If this were page 20, it'd be a different story.
This is laughably inconsistent with how you acted toward someone stalling their claim in the previous game, under very similar circumstances.
This is laughably inconsistent with how you acted toward someone stalling their claim in the previous game, under very similar circumstances.
I certainly agree she is usually way more aggressive...but I don't recall the last time being this early. Was it? If it was let's power wagon DGB. If it wasn't...then what do you mean by this?
If you want to shut the debate down, maybe try not fueling one end of it...?
You could try making a good vote, like maybe DGB or dC!
1. I never said I wanted to shut the debate down. I said I was bored with it, that means I want it to either stop or progress. It's usually easier to progress and I wasn't finding Az particularly town in his responses - are you?
2. I was literally just on DGB...getting no support from you. So...whut? Also, what's the dC case?
I also did squat as co-mod (sans design), except when Seppel needed mod action or a double-check/second opinion on something. And I only read the first Day and a half of the game, as well as some random pages and Juliet's posts before she became sentient.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Ugh I was at work later than usual and don't have much time before I have to go back to work, so I don't have the time to really read the thread and digest the whole argument though I have quickly read. That will have to wait for later.
Azrael seems fine though? He did post something that is a variant of a scumtell of sorts but I need to read back for the tone of it. He called me town though so I want to like him for that! >_>. I don't know what to think that literally the entire mtgs crew has jumped on him, oh except descoures, as I really doubt they're the entire scum team out to get him. I do put stock in the fact that everyone from mtgs seems so certain and they have more experience, oh wait descoures is on Azrael never mind it's seven to lynch, so I'm just kinda hrm. Anyway, since you guys have a more functional iso feature, this weekend I will check out a couple of the games that have been mentioned or I will try. But regardless even if he is DEFINITE CAUGHT SCUM I wouldn't want him lynched so soon.
I do think iso is town though. Part of that is from his early push on me. The way I look at it if iso was scum, he would know my opening statement was genuine and that I was town, and I mean sure he could push that but would he continue after I explained myself? I'm not so sure. I mean I guess you could go for the "he's trying to start an argument that would cause a distraction" which is always juicy for scum or "he's trying to show town suspicion" cause that looks good. Except he threw soft suspicion on me as scum last time and I don't usually garner much suspicion when I'm town, so I'm not sure how much he would expect to gain. And I opened by saying I couldn't really handle mafia at the time so there's a potential downside for scum him to come after an unhinged me. (And thanks for the apology by the way and I'm sorry for cursing at you in response, it's what I was hoping to avoid by taking a break.). I mean I guess he could still do that as scum, but I'm leaning towards not. I'm leaning towards genuine suspicion over something that seemed awkward, and I do sometimes get flack for my opening posts for a variety of reasons, and pushing that.
Also my suspicion on ced pretty much hinges on iso being town. Now I have a masters in empty posting and typically think that any question or push is a decent one to get a jump start or initiate interaction, but his questions and their timing don't make any sense. First the focus on me saying I forgave fate for turning on me when that kind of thing is pretty standard introductory stuff especially when he follows up with that's his reason for the cyan vote. If he's voting cyan because he hasn't "forgiven" him why not inquire why I made the rvs vote I did and not on fate? Then the follow up question was worse. Why wouldn't I want someone I play with to be town? And if he had been actually following the conversation, the question answers itself. Fate said it's been so long since he's been town, I said fate turned on me last game when he was scum, and I hope to see what he looks like as town again. Now fate and I don't play together often but the last time we've played together and he was town it was about two years ago. He's drawn a *****ton of scum roles, he's frustrated by it, I know how that feels, and I'd like for him to be town because I'd like to play with a town him. I would have also given nacho a please be town shout out but the rvs hug vote is all he gets because he's been ignoring me </3 like seriously do you not check Skype anymore?
ANYWAY, the question to me about why I wanted someone to be town felt really out of place! and it's especially so if you look at what was happening. Iso was pushing me and declaring me scum. Dgb had given a 75% agreement, so the questions look like piggybacking on iso's push. The questions he asked just don't seem to jive with trying to figure out my alignment but going oh look a push and not knowing what to ask so asking something so he could position himself to jump on my wagon. What made me finally realize that fate was scum in our game that recently ended was because his timing of suspicion on me came opportunistically when another player made a half serious/half troll push on me. People don't always realize when he's trolling me, so it came really weird. This feels exactly like that. Also, his explanation for the vote on me was hogwash. Does anyone really believe he thought I couldn't answer for why I wanted another player to be town and was so dumbfounded that the only thing I could do was vote him in response? I don't.
My luck I'm omgusing the wrong player, but I don't think so.
Not too much a fan of thors oh she's not doing anything she can't fake as it matches nothing like crosstown 2 where he declared that he's decent at reading me and matches more ny169 where he spent a whole bunch of time waxing about whether or not my anger was fake. But yes, he's right some people think pushing me to get a read is Tammy 101 and it's part of why mafia has been frustrating me. I'm an emotional person, I'm an emotional player and it's really hard for me not to react to attacks and baiting, I'm not perfect, but people who refuse to actually read what I'm doing in a game and read me based off that and instead decide they've figured out that I get a different level of mad as town than as scum and push me and push me and then stand in shock that I don't think it's all fun and games then scum read me for it drive me insane. If you can't read me when I'm happy, you sure as hell can't read me when I'm mad /tangent
Nacho nacho why do you sound like mr roboto. (Also did you see you won my game?)
Still don't like dgb's approach to claim stall. And if she has a town read on Azrael such that she doesn't think he should claim, why isn't she doing anything about it? Last I checked stopping in to ignore the wagon and say fate might be scum isn't really doing anything.
Also nati punch - did you really go to the third place on the wagon tell?
I think that's about it. My town reads I feel relatively good about are iso and taredas. Anyone else will have to wait until I read the thread a bit more closely.
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That makes no sense.
(7 to lynch)
Azrael (4): Cyan, Taredas, Iso, desCoures
Kami of Lunacy (2): Thor665, Zen_Soul
Iso (2): Azrael, HookerPunch
Tammy (1): ced395
ced395 (1): Tammy
Abstain (2): Nachomamma8, Kami of Lunacy
The deadline is May 9, 17 days from now.
(Tammy is town on the top of Page 2).
Azrael also earns the distinction of an early obvious town read.
Iso's town, but also wrong.
Vote: DesCoures
Entrapment tactics... he's pushing on Iso for running a bad gambit. I don't really see a whole lot of entrapment tactics in the midst of that, but I might be wrong! Show me where.
FATE, COME WITH ME
(((i think dgb might be town also)))
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Can we please just deal with getting Azrael lynched before we try and lynch people who might be bussing him? Putting the cart in front of the wagon like you're doing basically never works out in benefit of the town.
Either way, we're all gonna burn
I called your case garbage because it was garbage, and I wasn't the first to call it out. (That'd be Hookerpunch). And I didn't start with the assumption you were gambiting - that only became obvious after you shouted "hey guys, this is a gambit" to the entire thread and gave your cunning plan away. Which, if you were actually gambiting, would be an extremely silly thing for a townie to do. Maybe you're that silly, but I think more highly of you than that. And I'd hardly classify you as low-hanging fruit. I think bad players react badly to people behave weirdly, and I think you needed a bit of time to find your legs, but by this point in your career, I'd imagine you've found your stride.
Your scum game still needs some work, but clearly you've mastered the art of trying to talk loudly and long enough that everyone gets tired of reading the two people fighting back and forth until you get a free pass, no?
It should probably be a big sign to the MS crowd that almost every other MTGS player is currently voting for the same MTGS player. He IS scum, and it's easier for us to tell because we know him better than you.
Its meant to make the game not boring, because not boring games are not only more fun, but they're games the town is going to win. Because people are talking, and taking stances...and making mistakes.
I expected to get more people from the MS side of things to potentially take the bait, but whatevs, I think we've got a fairly useful amount of data at this point.
I think it was Taredas who said that it looked like I wasn't taking the game seriously and that that wasn't the Azrael that he'd been led to expect to see. Serious, dreadnought-post Az is definitely one aspect of my personality, but this is the other, and the two of them are far from inseparable. Whenever I may appear to be simply goofing off, I'm also taking the game quite seriously. It's a game after all, and there's no good reason not to send the mafia to the gallows with a nice, broad grin plastered across your face.
Actually this is pretty solid.
Either way, we're all gonna burn
Either way, we're all gonna burn
I must be off somewhere.
Either way, we're all gonna burn
I find it childishly amusing to point out how blindingly townie Tammy is in multiple places. That's a scum tell?
Should I pan this particular prong on the basis that I haven't actually voted for Taredas, because you've forgotten how much I exaggerate cases, or because it's based on your bogus initial point?
As for the Iso case, I'm actually mildly less frightened of him after his more recent showings, and it's certainly true that he gambits like crazy. What I haven't seen him do, and what struck me as unusual for him, was how he started making threats when I panned his attack on Tammy. That doesn't seem typical of him to me - does it to you?
I take it back, I'm still not finished with Iso.
This is the heart of your case - that I somehow destroyed your ability to gain reactions. BS. I called your case bad - that doesn't put a halt on getting valid reactions from the thread. What stopped you from getting valid reactions was claiming that you were gambiting in an absurdly obvious way.
And you're completely right - town Az would, and is, trying to figure you out, at this very moment, and that was the primary point of my attacking you. Frankly, I didn't rank whatever potential reactions that you almost certainly weren't getting out of the form-letter questions for CED and KOL nearly as highly as I rated the possibility to poke YOU into providing some reactions which would reveal your alignment. Because if you are town, I want to know it, and if you're not, we're going to kill you. Probably on day one.
And yeah, I know you like gambits. And I expect gambits from you under either alignment, because you know that we know that you like gambits. Problem is, this looks more to me like you were going through the motions instead of actually putting your heart into it, this time. And I don't like fakery, not one bit.
I don't remember changing my vote from Az - do you remember me doing that?
Something like that, yeah.
Can you do anything pls?
I'll give you a hint.
Actually, no - the crux of my case is "Az is not a bad player and knows how I play and get results, therefore the fact that he is playing badly and inhibiting my results means he is likely scum (as townAz is not a bumbling buffoon like you're pretending to be so convincingly in this game) in addition to not following up his (or my) attacks in a townie way, and to top it all off, he's fishing for my role - so let's lynch him."
But I mean, you're welcome to strawman all you want. You're only a vote away from claim range, after all.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Gambits can be authentic or inauthentic too, Cyan. If someone is running a gambit, they can do it in either an authentic townie fashion or an inauthentic scummy fashion, and I don't count the former as fakery.
Btw, whatever happened to your Godzilla avvie? You know, the one with the cute and unswervingly applicable caption?
Perhaps you're failing to grasp that my respect for your play is not infinite, ineffable, or unvarying? More likely you're just exaggerating the hell out of your case for fun or ad homming me for reactions, or maybe to tilt an easy lynch. Which is cool, I get that, but you could at least confine yourself to accusations that are remotely close to reality. 'Spose that isn't good scum play, though.
I especially like the way I'm supposed to be straw-manning you for accurately summing up, describing, and responding to your post. That's an especially slick Machiavellan touch, there.
My little Iso is all grown up now. *teary eyes*
Unvote: Kami
Vote: Az
Life should be restored to the thread now. Claim or refuse to, I want something new to discuss.
Also you guys and your stupid L-2 claiming rules here are stupid.
Either way, we're all gonna burn
...and you should also look up my past stance on when it's appropriate to seek a role-claim, and when it's symptomatic of a lazy or dysfunctional town. I don't think everyone on my wagon is necessarily serious, and I certainly don't think the wagon's been well-justified, and until I'm disabused of one or the other of those notions, I'm in no hurry.
If your theory is that I'm scum who's panicked about how to false-claim in a setup that's patterned off of a basic, IIRC, well, lol?
Because that's, y'know, part of the game?
I'm pretty sure you're not the one who decides when you get lynched. Now claim.
We have decided that - which is why we've voted you into claim range. You know the procedure - if you're a PR, you claim and save us the trouble of lynching you. If you're not, or you're scum, let us know so we can take you out.
Quit stalling.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
And no, I don't think you're panicking about how to false-claim. I think that you're dead scum and you know it, and are just hoping that your wagon dissipates, because you don't have a claim to get you out of being dead.
And I think you're trying to rush this much too fast for my comfort.
DC hasn't been in to explain even the meaning of "entrapment" and "overtheatrics". Thor seems to be voting me because other people are voting me. Taredas has disappeared. Ced says I'm lazy, wihtout even understanding what I was actually doing. You're tunneling, because that's what you always do, and Iso is apparently so upset that *I* ruined his brilliancy that he thinks I need a spanking via lynch.
I'm going to wait for DC, Taredas, and Ced, and if they still want to push this wagon to completion, I'm going to make damn sure that their reasoning is on the record before you and Iso rush an obscenely fast lynch for reasons that most of the wagon can't even coherently articulate.
We're good players, Az. (At least we'd like to think so.) Why are you so worried we aren't going to scrutinize the people on your wagon if you flip town?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Weren't you just accusing people of OMGUS? Tell me more, please.
(7 to lynch)
Azrael (5): Cyan, Taredas, Iso, desCoures, Thor665
Iso (2): Azrael, HookerPunch
Kami of Lunacy (1): Zen_Soul
ced395 (1): Tammy
desCoures (1): Nachomamma8
Abstain (2): Kami of Lunacy, ced395
The deadline is May 9, 16 days from now.
Also for those interested in such things, third vote on the wagon..?
Either way, we're all gonna burn
I think the fact that you don't seem to see any need to scrutinize them beforehand highlights a pretty clear difference in how much you care about doing good analysis this game.
You're familiar with my more recent townie games. In most of them, we pushed to get the game essentially solved and the majority of the scum pinpointed by the end of day one. Now just contrast that with the procedure you're pushing for here, where you're content to rush a lynch in an embarrassingly short time span, without even having analyzed the dynamics of the first serious wagon of the day.
So no, I'm not inclined to trust in your wisdom, particularly given that you're completely misinterpreting my behavior, your case is based on a completely subjective fantasy of what the 'good play' for a situation was- and because I disagreed, I'm scum, and you're somehow dragging enough gullible/bored townies and scum behind you to make it stick - for the moment. So, no given time, I don't think you're going to have the votes, because your case is an awful, careless, and utterly superficial hack job, and I'm guessing there are at least two scum on my wagon, and I want them dead.
Out of the remainder of the wagon, DC, Taredas, and Ced have all gotten really quiet and sat back while Cyan and Iso do all the heavy lifting, and probably that's a more clear-cut warning sign. If the town is going to implode without them having to put themselves onto the radar in a major way, the mafia are going to be happy to let that happen.
It feels like Cyan doesn't particularly care what I say. Kind of like Iso, every time I shoot down one of his voting rationales he goes looking for a fresh reason to keep right on going. Getting the bit in his teeth is pretty typical for Cyan, but this is the first time I can remember being the subject of his day-one tunneling, and I'm finding it a little hard to be objective in evaluating whether the fervency and tone is consistent with his past behavior or not. I guess it probably is, but that doesn't make it any more pleasant to deal with, from this end of things.
Yeah, I've seen you play once, and weren't you scum? I don't even remember how that game went in its entirety because I was so focused on killing Gaiden and that one person with the Touhou avatar. So you can't say "ISO U TTLY NO HAO I PALY!!!11one" when your play wasn't even a factor in my mind in that game, much like here.
Good to know you're going to be absolutely useless the entire game.
Okay. And this is based on? More importantly, can you give us any reason why we should be listening to you at this point in the game, when you've displayed what can demonstrably be qualified as purely scummy behavior?
And I think you're full of crap. You've seen me play before and know that unless I dedicate several hours to a single mid-Day-1 post or everything lines itself up in such a way that makes the scum painfully obvious that I'm perfectly content with rushing into a lynch and letting the pieces fall into place once I know the first lynch and Nightkill's alignments. I work on reactions, results, game flow, and interactions. If one of the best players I've ever seen play is displaying sufficiently scummy behavior on Day 1 to draw the votes of several other players that are considered excellent in different respects, including my own vote, then why on earth would I want to slow down? My ego might be showing right now, but I've had a strong start and I don't believe I'll be getting lynched in this game, which is a refreshing change from the other two Crosstown games where, in the first one, I was playing differently from usual, and the second one, I was scum playing badly. I've had a recent break from Mafia, which has rejuvenated me from my burnout slightly, and I'm excited about how this game is gonna turn out. (inb4 spectator chat "and Iso is making the game all about himself again.") You said that we've garnered enough information to solve the game Day 1, but I don't see you utilizing it if you truly believe that. And if you still think I'm scum, you need to take off the OMGUS blinders and be productive.
If anyone that isn't Az thinks I'm tunneling or needs convincing, I can take a look at Az's games since I've joined the site and see how the language and tactics there compare to here; any takers on that?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Yes, and it's kind of painful right now.
I don't want to come off as being dismissive of you, Iso, but I really don't know the current iteration of your playstyle nearly as well as you know it yourself. I know you like gambits, but that doesn't mean that I trust you to never be scum and never make bad cases that need to be exposed. If someone asked me what your scum game looks like, I would have said brash and impetuous and not that difficult to spot, and that's what I saw when you started laying into Tammy. You seem to expect that I would assume the best out of you from the very start - when I haven't played with you in what, over a year maybe, and had absolutely no reason to put you in my town column?
Maybe people nowadays walk around in awe of you as one of the better mafia players in the subforum, and are deathly afraid of tripping you up. I don't really know, because I haven't really had my pulse on the game-play in the subforum for a good long time now. You ARE one of the better players, and I was one one of the first people to rate you pretty highly, but the level of respect and deference you seem to be expecting me to have had for your play is pretty unrealistic for me to show, in-game, towards any player I can think of. I don't have strong reasons to be confident you're town now, and I certainly didn't at about ten posts into the game. And if you think I should have, you're deluding yourself.
As for the start of our information development, no, I don't think we have enough information to solve the game right now - half of the thread has barely posted any meaningful content. I think we have the chance to start building on these foundations to get enough critical information mass to clear four or five townies and formulate a solid zone of inquiry. But only if I don't wring your neck first for saying egotistical crap like "why don't you be start being productive", when you're so keen to win the argument that you want a page six lynch without giving people the time to even answer my questions about why they're voting me. You want productivity? Then put your ego and your impatience back in your pants, take a hard look at what you're really doing here and why you're doing it, and play more like someone who cares more about what will best position this town to win the game, and less like someone who got miffed because I don't trust your judgment or your alignment blindly.
Either way, we're all gonna burn
I cannot /barn this post hard enough. (****ing interface just ****ing ate my post TWICE. **** this noise. I've said it before, I'll say it again - I don't think Mafia on MTGS survives for more than a year with the new, "improved" interface.)
These, too. (I've had Iso as likely town since he made that "NO BRAKES" push on Tammy, and almost certain town ever since he attacked Azrael - Iso has trouble cloaking his tone as scum, this is Iso's town tone.)
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It's DGB? She was being inconsistent, yes, but that says nothing about her alignment.
(Her more recent posts, on the other hand... see below.)
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This doesn't make sense. Why don't you like 85, and why don't you feel that it doesn't detract from Azrael's play "enough"?
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Explain the underlined to me, please - if Az is scum, then doesn't Az's Iso case *have* to be an attempt to get one over Iso?
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Why not? Looks to me like Iso's saying that's what he'd expect a town Azrael to do... and Azrael's not doing that, which suggests he's not town.
Uh, what? And... if you think Cyan is scum, why aren't you pushing him more aggressively?
Uh, wait a minute.
Azrael is claim-stalling (L-2 with a player who unvoted only because of the MTGS "claim at L-2" custom)... and you completely ignore it? Why? You're inconsistent, yes, but not usually *this* inconsistent.
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This is TEXTBOOK scum defense.
Literally. (Here's the textbook - you want the third quote from W.)
Az responds to the case against him by going negative, dismissing the attack against him, trying to defuse it without actually engaging it (note the last two sentences). He doesn't explain *why* he thinks the case is wrong. Why? Because he can't - the case is *correct*.
(Also, note the "ooh, this will be fun!" - I've seen way too many scum respond to attacks like that.)
A) I'm familiar with overstating cases to check reactions - I do that myself (see, well, most of my D1 play in Redux Mirror, plus who knows how many games from back when 'Scum was still a fun place to play). The way you're attacking Iso? That's not town overstating a case to check reactions - you're too indirect, and you're not scrutinizing any players EXCEPT Iso.
B) I don't see happiness in your posts here. I see resignation papered over with a faked smile and manipulation.
Got an example of yourself behaving this way as town? See, I remember you being non-serious early on in Redux Invit - but the tone was different, and it transitioned into your serious mode as you got more reads - as opposed to OtR/Cyberspace, where your tone was like this for the entire game.
Choke on your words and die, scum.
Oh hey look. Az seems to back off of Iso slightly, then goes right back on the attack with new reasoning - read: scum who's trying to get the mislynch but can't commit 100% because he'll take too much blowback.
Also, note the tone here. Az is indirect - Iso's behavior is "unusual", "not typical". That's not how he attacked people in Redux Invit - he was much more direct, much more willing to call people scum to their face. Here, he's reluctant to do that.
Why? Because he's scum and *KNOWS* that Iso isn't actually scum. He doesn't believe his attack.
Note the underlined sentence. It's pure conflict avoidance - trying to distract/divert Cyan instead of actually addressing his arguments. You know, like scum do.
Again, look at how Azrael phrases his attacks. Look at the tone. He's indirect, calling everything scummy without coming out and directly saying Iso is scum.
This isn't how a townie pushes a lynch they believe in. This isn't how Azrael pushed ZDS/Axelrod/DYH/Cyan in Redux Invit. This is how scum push a mislynch target - like Az pushed Iso in Cyberspace, or AE in OtR.
Claim and/or die, scum.
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
So, kinda want to strengthen my town read in at reads from there. Look at crosstown 2. Look at how she reacted to claim stallers. Her completely ignoring it here is very worrisome.
Anyway just woke up and am heading off to work, but I will have something up in a little bit.
Oh but nacho in case you check in: you called me town from the top of page two. I know you can read me pretty well but it doesn't concern you at all that I made the statement feel free to lynch me?
Oh also also nati punch: why did you call me town and seem to follow along with the ced/Tammy could be cross bussing theory? Did you really not see why I voted ced?
And I'm really out of time now. I'll comment on the larger issue later.
Can you sheep me in killing this caught scum?
We can do things together while the MTGSers tunnel one another for little to no reason.
If you want to shut the debate down, maybe try not fueling one end of it...?
You could try making a good vote, like maybe DGB or dC!
Tammy: No, it doesn't worry me.
This is laughably inconsistent with how you acted toward someone stalling their claim in the previous game, under very similar circumstances.
I certainly agree she is usually way more aggressive...but I don't recall the last time being this early. Was it? If it was let's power wagon DGB. If it wasn't...then what do you mean by this?
1. I never said I wanted to shut the debate down. I said I was bored with it, that means I want it to either stop or progress. It's usually easier to progress and I wasn't finding Az particularly town in his responses - are you?
2. I was literally just on DGB...getting no support from you. So...whut? Also, what's the dC case?
I also did squat as co-mod (sans design), except when Seppel needed mod action or a double-check/second opinion on something. And I only read the first Day and a half of the game, as well as some random pages and Juliet's posts before she became sentient.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Azrael seems fine though? He did post something that is a variant of a scumtell of sorts but I need to read back for the tone of it. He called me town though so I want to like him for that! >_>. I don't know what to think that literally the entire mtgs crew has jumped on him, oh except descoures, as I really doubt they're the entire scum team out to get him. I do put stock in the fact that everyone from mtgs seems so certain and they have more experience, oh wait descoures is on Azrael never mind it's seven to lynch, so I'm just kinda hrm. Anyway, since you guys have a more functional iso feature, this weekend I will check out a couple of the games that have been mentioned or I will try. But regardless even if he is DEFINITE CAUGHT SCUM I wouldn't want him lynched so soon.
I do think iso is town though. Part of that is from his early push on me. The way I look at it if iso was scum, he would know my opening statement was genuine and that I was town, and I mean sure he could push that but would he continue after I explained myself? I'm not so sure. I mean I guess you could go for the "he's trying to start an argument that would cause a distraction" which is always juicy for scum or "he's trying to show town suspicion" cause that looks good. Except he threw soft suspicion on me as scum last time and I don't usually garner much suspicion when I'm town, so I'm not sure how much he would expect to gain. And I opened by saying I couldn't really handle mafia at the time so there's a potential downside for scum him to come after an unhinged me. (And thanks for the apology by the way and I'm sorry for cursing at you in response, it's what I was hoping to avoid by taking a break.). I mean I guess he could still do that as scum, but I'm leaning towards not. I'm leaning towards genuine suspicion over something that seemed awkward, and I do sometimes get flack for my opening posts for a variety of reasons, and pushing that.
Also my suspicion on ced pretty much hinges on iso being town. Now I have a masters in empty posting and typically think that any question or push is a decent one to get a jump start or initiate interaction, but his questions and their timing don't make any sense. First the focus on me saying I forgave fate for turning on me when that kind of thing is pretty standard introductory stuff especially when he follows up with that's his reason for the cyan vote. If he's voting cyan because he hasn't "forgiven" him why not inquire why I made the rvs vote I did and not on fate? Then the follow up question was worse. Why wouldn't I want someone I play with to be town? And if he had been actually following the conversation, the question answers itself. Fate said it's been so long since he's been town, I said fate turned on me last game when he was scum, and I hope to see what he looks like as town again. Now fate and I don't play together often but the last time we've played together and he was town it was about two years ago. He's drawn a *****ton of scum roles, he's frustrated by it, I know how that feels, and I'd like for him to be town because I'd like to play with a town him. I would have also given nacho a please be town shout out but the rvs hug vote is all he gets because he's been ignoring me </3 like seriously do you not check Skype anymore?
ANYWAY, the question to me about why I wanted someone to be town felt really out of place! and it's especially so if you look at what was happening. Iso was pushing me and declaring me scum. Dgb had given a 75% agreement, so the questions look like piggybacking on iso's push. The questions he asked just don't seem to jive with trying to figure out my alignment but going oh look a push and not knowing what to ask so asking something so he could position himself to jump on my wagon. What made me finally realize that fate was scum in our game that recently ended was because his timing of suspicion on me came opportunistically when another player made a half serious/half troll push on me. People don't always realize when he's trolling me, so it came really weird. This feels exactly like that. Also, his explanation for the vote on me was hogwash. Does anyone really believe he thought I couldn't answer for why I wanted another player to be town and was so dumbfounded that the only thing I could do was vote him in response? I don't.
My luck I'm omgusing the wrong player, but I don't think so.
Not too much a fan of thors oh she's not doing anything she can't fake as it matches nothing like crosstown 2 where he declared that he's decent at reading me and matches more ny169 where he spent a whole bunch of time waxing about whether or not my anger was fake. But yes, he's right some people think pushing me to get a read is Tammy 101 and it's part of why mafia has been frustrating me. I'm an emotional person, I'm an emotional player and it's really hard for me not to react to attacks and baiting, I'm not perfect, but people who refuse to actually read what I'm doing in a game and read me based off that and instead decide they've figured out that I get a different level of mad as town than as scum and push me and push me and then stand in shock that I don't think it's all fun and games then scum read me for it drive me insane. If you can't read me when I'm happy, you sure as hell can't read me when I'm mad /tangent
Nacho nacho why do you sound like mr roboto. (Also did you see you won my game?)
Still don't like dgb's approach to claim stall. And if she has a town read on Azrael such that she doesn't think he should claim, why isn't she doing anything about it? Last I checked stopping in to ignore the wagon and say fate might be scum isn't really doing anything.
Also nati punch - did you really go to the third place on the wagon tell?
I think that's about it. My town reads I feel relatively good about are iso and taredas. Anyone else will have to wait until I read the thread a bit more closely.