I'm willing to reconsider Iso as scum mostly because I don't think I'm going to get to deep into this game until after a night phase(as usual I know) but I'm like 98% on Azrael being town, along with Tammy (and Nacho+Thor to a lesser extent) to a lesser extent. I'm mostly ignoring the MTGSers besides Iso and Az because >walls, but we'll see. I've never really understood Fate and always scumread DGB so there's that.
btw for those counting, I was 'obvtowned' by every player in the first three pages, that's a good sign that I'll die tonight if scum need a low-info kill.
No pitchfork over the claim stalling, the L-2 happened on what, page 5? I have a town read on Azrael, and I'm not fond or forcing claims this early in the game. If this were page 20, it'd be a different story.
This is laughably inconsistent with how you acted toward someone stalling their claim in the previous game, under very similar circumstances.
Not too much a fan of thors oh she's not doing anything she can't fake as it matches nothing like crosstown 2 where he declared that he's decent at reading me and matches more ny169 where he spent a whole bunch of time waxing about whether or not my anger was fake.
Riiiiiight. Because claiming "decent at reading you" means that I also claim "inability to assess that i think you're capabale of faking a certain level of emotion"
I'm *sorry* that unlike some people I think you are capable of deception. Are you saying I'm wrong about that? Because otherwise I don't get the gist of this thrust...like, at all. Talk to me, feel free to go all (fake?) emotional too, we can work with that.
btw for those counting, I was 'obvtowned' by every player in the first three pages, that's a good sign that I'll die tonight if scum need a low-info kill.
Here's Hooker's post.
I didn't town read you.
But I won't mind it if you end up dead overnight. If that makes you feel better.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Sometimes I'm not cranky, that said (going into my usual Thor never lies about his meta) I do think I am more likely to be cranky when scum and that DGB has a point.
Unfortunately for her, there are a couple modifiers. First off, I'm also more likely to be cranky due to some other factors (work, personal life, dealing with play I consider bad, et al) Second, and fascinatingly true, I'm more likely to be cranky in all my games if I'm scum in any one of them. If I actually pull scum in too many games at once I can lose the enjoyment of the entire game of Mafia, and that has happened to me.
But, yes, it is possible to get me as non-cranky. You've even probably seen me non-cranky in these games, just only for given moments and hardly for entire games. I don't think I've ever been un-cranky for an entire game before for at least a few years now.
@DGB - do you want to weigh in on the timeline of your lynch all delayed claims thing? Because it is pretty interesting to me that you're not, and I'd like to see you commit to some very specific comments about why not. If it's "too early" in this game - when does it become "not too early?" Please be as specific as you can.
So your "omg solid Iso scumread" is just an avenue now? What changed?
I figured out that you talk and act like a Bond villain when your ego comes into play, and that was the missing piece.
I believe you figured that out in Cyberspace, as well. Did you not remember this? Surely you knew it's in my personality and playstyle to be theatrical.
Sometimes I'm not cranky, that said (going into my usual Thor never lies about his meta) I do think I am more likely to be cranky when scum and that DGB has a point.
Unfortunately for her, there are a couple modifiers. First off, I'm also more likely to be cranky due to some other factors (work, personal life, dealing with play I consider bad, et al) Second, and fascinatingly true, I'm more likely to be cranky in all my games if I'm scum in any one of them. If I actually pull scum in too many games at once I can lose the enjoyment of the entire game of Mafia, and that has happened to me.
But, yes, it is possible to get me as non-cranky. You've even probably seen me non-cranky in these games, just only for given moments and hardly for entire games. I don't think I've ever been un-cranky for an entire game before for at least a few years now.
@DGB - do you want to weigh in on the timeline of your lynch all delayed claims thing? Because it is pretty interesting to me that you're not, and I'd like to see you commit to some very specific comments about why not. If it's "too early" in this game - when does it become "not too early?" Please be as specific as you can.
Fair 'nuff.
Yeah I like how Kami hasn't commented on any of the allegations directed towards her.
Kami do you have a post restriction where you can't respond to cases
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@DGB - do you want to weigh in on the timeline of your lynch all delayed claims thing? Because it is pretty interesting to me that you're not, and I'd like to see you commit to some very specific comments about why not. If it's "too early" in this game - when does it become "not too early?" Please be as specific as you can.
Azrael is the first wagon and it was on page 5 or so.
I'm actually starting to worry a bit at how he's grown quiet, though.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@DGB - do you want to weigh in on the timeline of your lynch all delayed claims thing? Because it is pretty interesting to me that you're not, and I'd like to see you commit to some very specific comments about why not. If it's "too early" in this game - when does it become "not too early?" Please be as specific as you can.
Azrael is the first wagon and it was on page 5 or so.
I'm actually starting to worry a bit at how he's grown quiet, though.
That is pretty pointedly *not* answering my question.
DGB - are you honestly claiming lack of playing with cranky Thor-town? This is a yes or no question.
You're always cranky, it's a matter of level, LOL.
Yeah, LOL, so funny, so funny...though it makes you bringing it up in the first place pretty weaksauce then.
I'd note that I have a scum read off of you for your actions this page, but I already had a scumread on you. At least now I don't need to call it policy as much as I otherwise would have.
So, counter-factual vague assertions (Cyan), awful meta arguments and OMGUS (taredas/iso), interpreting jokes as though they were serious (Taredas), and I don't even know how to respond to DC's point because I don't know what he means by entrapment and apparently he's had selective amnesia regarding things like World Dom 2 and most every town-start I've had, ever. Any other filler cliches and excuse-cases anyone needs to work out of their system? Now's your chance. Everybody's doing it.
Really? World Domination 2? Ancient history that had two scum teams, one with an alternate win condition, and where I died night 1?
While, much much more recently, I played against scum-you in Cyberspace, and where you were literally the only scum member I didn't pinpoint day 1? The game where your early game had almost exactly the same kind of overly 'whimsical' and predatory feel rather than the methodical approach you tend to take as town?
As for 'entrapment'... your 'case' on Iso was that he was running a gambit, badly. And how in the world would a theoretical town-Iso be able to respond to that in any way that wouldn't leave open avenues of attack? There was nothing inquisitive about that 'case'. You weren't asking, you were pouncing.
It's appropriate. And the idea that anyone on your wagon is 'not serious' is super-lulsy. Every person voting you has stated specific reasoning for doing so; nobody is just hanging out voting you for fun. And it is a very rare occurence when someone thinks that a wagon on them is 'well justified'. But WE think so, and ultimately that is what matters most.
And no, I don't think you're panicking about how to false-claim. I think that you're dead scum and you know it, and are just hoping that your wagon dissipates, because you don't have a claim to get you out of being dead.
And I think you're trying to rush this much too fast for my comfort.
DC hasn't been in to explain even the meaning of "entrapment" and "overtheatrics". Thor seems to be voting me because other people are voting me. Taredas has disappeared. Ced says I'm lazy, wihtout even understanding what I was actually doing. You're tunneling, because that's what you always do, and Iso is apparently so upset that *I* ruined his brilliancy that he thinks I need a spanking via lynch.
I'm going to wait for DC, Taredas, and Ced, and if they still want to push this wagon to completion, I'm going to make damn sure that their reasoning is on the record before you and Iso rush an obscenely fast lynch for reasons that most of the wagon can't even coherently articulate.
My reasoning's on the board now. I'm pretty certain Taredas and ced have made their reasoning clear as well. Your move.
Out of the remainder of the wagon, DC, Taredas, and Ced have all gotten really quiet and sat back while Cyan and Iso do all the heavy lifting, and probably that's a more clear-cut warning sign. If the town is going to implode without them having to put themselves onto the radar in a major way, the mafia are going to be happy to let that happen.
Oh, really?
Because if you're going to bring up ancient history, then I would think you'd remember that my posting schedule in more recent years has been generally at best once per two days, which is what I was trying to do yesterday when I couldn't get the site to open. Ioday is the third day from my previous post. 'Really quiet'. Heh.
That last line is also blatant fearmongering, especially from someone that earlier said something about 'eh, I think we have enough data points'.
@Nachomamma (also, Re: Nachomamma, for the rest of you)
dC, I would expect you to be more familiar with Azrael's meta than I am. Do you think that overtheatrics is a scumtell in particular for him? Personally, it comes off to me like he's feeling good about the game, he's excited by the game: I haven't seen him be able to capture that same excitement in his scum games, but it's something that's usually present in the majority of his towngames. Do you think overtheatrics is a scumtell in general?
Entrapment tactics... he's pushing on Iso for running a bad gambit. I don't really see a whole lot of entrapment tactics in the midst of that, but I might be wrong! Show me where.
FATE, COME WITH ME
(((i think dgb might be town also)))
I find this whole post slightly incongruent with the fact that you voted me on the post directly before this. Especially given that your more recent posts imply that was a serious vote.
See above for what I meant by entrapment tactics. There was nothing Iso could possibly have said that wouldn't leave valid avenues of attack, and additionally Azrael sounded way too sure of himself.
...I also find it rather interesting that Azrael basically regurgitated the very same characterization of him that you state here.
Riddle me this, Nacho. You seem very interested in taking pressure off Azrael, without actually engaging anyone (well, other than myself, who you are voting) on the points against him. Why is that?
@Taredas
I didn't like the way he basically totally backed off Tammy with that huge apology and such. Felt a bit fake. Didn't feel fake enough for me to believe Azrael's 'case', though.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
First page, I actually think DGB is sort of town. She feels different from her usual self, yes, but I think the lack of bloodthirsty isn't the worst thing in the world: she usually takes advantage of her natural tendencies to push mislynches as scum, so standing back a little bit from that this game feels mildly townish.
I miss Fate.
I think Iso and Azrael both show a marked interest in their scumhunting that they've lacked in recent showing as scum, meaning they are actually town this time or they stepped it the **** up.
Az's initial attack on Iso is just a tiny, tiny bit ridiculous (gambits are gambits because they are risks, that means good players make *****ty gambits because you are not always rewarded when you risk), but I can see where he's coming from and there are overall not any egregious misreps.
I think Iso's response to Azrael was ******* incredibly town in an adorable sort of way. I don't think scumIso picks up a bit of early game suspicion from Az and freaks the **** out. I do think townIso thinks scumAz is attacking him, gets a sniff of the glory immediately pegging Az would bring, and then flips the **** out.
I actually read Tar's post this time around, and it actually feels like there's more life in a single post than there was in all of Dark Age, particularly in the "I know how it feels" bit.
Iso-Azrael was just as boring the second time as it was the first: :(. It just feels like both sides overestimated the other (Azrael expecting Iso to make great gambits, Iso expecting Azrael to like his gambit and team up with him in the process).
My dC case began because "over theatrics and entrapment" was his initial attack. I don't think being dramatic is a scumtell for anyone really, and I don't think it's a duty of a town player to give the person they're attacking "outs" (whatever the **** that means). I currently don't like how dC thinks theatrics are a scumtell because of one game he played with Azrael (I assume they have a bit more history than this), and the entrapment accusation continues to be questionable (maybe I'm just not understanding it, though: how can Azrael respond to your case that doesn't leave a valid avenue of attack?).
I post in chunks because I'm on an iPad, dC. The vote was a serious vote and the reasons I voted you came in my second post.
Why is it interesting that Azrael agrees with my take on his meta?
I'm engaging your points because they come from the least genuine place. Cyan reasons are also bad, but I don't expect him to listen, ditto Iso.
Oh, and Thor?
I'm gonna be sheeping fate onto DGB if this whole dC thing doesn't work out, so you can vote there at your leisure instead of bad votes on town.
Tammy: I sound like a Robot because I am actually a CTD alt (which is illegal, I know, but mods haven't found out yet).
Yeah my kidneys are failing and I'm constantly nauseated and drowsy. I have a few years ahead of me of this getting worse before (1) dialysis or (2) transplant.
Don't forget to sign your donor cars and drive motorcycles blindfolded.
Thor's BS-meter is pretty high and his behavior reminds me of the first game in this series where he was scum, and not the second where he was town and RELATIVELY more relaxed and friendly. Here we're back with the BS Day 1 DGB-policy-lynch distraction. He's not calling it that, but that's what it is.
I'm pretty excited to read Thor once he gets out of his "look, I'm doing things normal people don't do!" RVS phase.
Yeah, when I move into me "Look, I'm doing things normal people don't do!" middle of the day phase I'm much more workable.
The dC logic still feels weak to me because I actually agree with him that Az looked theatrical - insomuch as he came across like he was overplaying things, which is really just a fancy way of saying the stuff he's done feels a little fake.
I agree with your Iso and Tar reads.
I have no idea why you also find Tammy or Hooker so town at this stage. They haven't done much,a nd what they have done is pretty...meh.
I find Az scummy.
I don't find dC particularly scummy.
I find Ced worse than you do.
You didn't send an action Night 1 as you should have, dunderhead.
And you voted me, a person you had indicated as reading town, over Nacho, a person you indicated as reading scum, over the reasoning of 'our role claims'.
I know who looks to have screwed the pooch on common logic more than the other.
Thor's BS-meter is pretty high and his behavior reminds me of the first game in this series where he was scum, and not the second where he was town and RELATIVELY more relaxed and friendly. Here we're back with the BS Day 1 DGB-policy-lynch distraction. He's not calling it that, but that's what it is.
You're right, I'm not calling it that because I've pointed out things you've done that I've found objectionable and explained why - making it...y'know, not just a policy lynch.
You're right, I'm not calling it that because I've pointed out things you've done that I've found objectionable and explained why - making it...y'know, not just a policy lynch.
I don't recall you ever finding me town in any game. Is my memory failing?
Well I was definitely trying to respond to Azrael's last post there. This software is the worst. I'm fascinated that a random guy running a VBulletin website can get bought out by a multi-million dollar company and the overall user experience just becomes worse in every way(or at least every way that I've experienced so far). What the actual ****.
I cannot /barn this post hard enough. (****ing interface just ****ing ate my post TWICE. **** this noise. I've said it before, I'll say it again - I don't think Mafia on MTGS survives for more than a year with the new, "improved" interface.)
I mean like..this game is exactly how Iso always acts as town, and anyone with more than 2 games experience with him(that's you Azrael) knows it. You are very much grasping at straws here, and it shows.
It should probably be a big sign to the MS crowd that almost every other MTGS player is currently voting for the same MTGS player. He IS scum, and it's easier for us to tell because we know him better than you.
Nice attempting at stalling. No dice. When you're at L-2, you claim, and you know it. You making this post completely cements my feeling that you are scum. No lynch is acceptable today other than this one.
These, too. (I've had Iso as likely town since he made that "NO BRAKES" push on Tammy, and almost certain town ever since he attacked Azrael - Iso has trouble cloaking his tone as scum, this is Iso's town tone.)
Pretty natural tone here - this definitely reads like something off the top of his head.
@Tar - whether or not you do or don't have access what do you think of DGB leaping on Tammy for her excuses and ignoring yours? Are yours just that much more believable or something?
It's DGB? She was being inconsistent, yes, but that says nothing about her alignment.
(Her more recent posts, on the other hand... see below.)
I'm not sure what to make of his Iso case. It's either a genuine suspicion - or a pissing contest, an attempt to get one over Iso for some reason. Kind of looks like the latter to me. But I guess it depends what Az is truly intending it to be.
Explain the underlined to me, please - if Az is scum, then doesn't Az's Iso case *have* to be an attempt to get one over Iso?
I feel like if Az were town, that the correct play would be to look for the people who bit on to my garbage Tammy push - but he's not, and prevented any semblance of that occurring by heading me off at the pass.
That makes no sense.
Why not? Looks to me like Iso's saying that's what he'd expect a town Azrael to do... and Azrael's not doing that, which suggests he's not town.
Well, I don't find the logic of people acting differently than you aspect=scum as particularly persuasive, but he phrases it like he actually believes it. The ellipses, in particular.
Azrael is trying way too hard to make the really obvious point that Tammy is town. This is especially apparent when you compare it to how much work he put into voting Taredas.
Uh, what? And... if you think Cyan is scum, why aren't you pushing him more aggressively?
Do you think Cyan is town, Taredas? The ellipses there seems oddly placed. I don't have any particularly strong feelings about Cyan myself, but you seem taken aback there.
Azrael is claim-stalling (L-2 with a player who unvoted only because of the MTGS "claim at L-2" custom)... and you completely ignore it? Why? You're inconsistent, yes, but not usually *this* inconsistent.
So, counter-factual vague assertions (Cyan), awful meta arguments and OMGUS (taredas/iso), interpreting jokes as though they were serious (Taredas), and I don't even know how to respond to DC's point because I don't know what he means by entrapment and apparently he's had selective amnesia regarding things like World Dom 2 and most every town-start I've had, ever. Any other filler cliches and excuse-cases anyone needs to work out of their system? Now's your chance. Everybody's doing it.
Az responds to the case against him by going negative, dismissing the attack against him, trying to defuse it without actually engaging it (note the last two sentences). He doesn't explain *why* he thinks the case is wrong. Why? Because he can't - the case is *correct*.
(Also, note the "ooh, this will be fun!" - I've seen way too many scum respond to attacks like that.)
Maybe other scum say things like, I dunno, but I actually mean it. I get so little practice getting attacked by five people at once most of the time as town. It was actually kind of fun for about half a second, before it became really depressing that I might actually get lynched.
The brevity is more of a function that two days ago I was in the middle of changing jobs and becoming a supervisor, and I didn't exactly have an abundance of time or energy right at that particular moment. Not sure what post you're reading if you think I wasn't pointing out why the cases were incorrect - that was the entire post. Style/belief points for the article quote, though.
I guess there's not that many people even on MTGS who are familiar with my meta anymore. Its designed to be weird, playful, and a tad provocative. Its designed to get reactions out of people by overstating the seriousness of cases, and by attracting players into attacking the guy who's behaving strangely. But it's also designed to convey how I actually feel to people who are paying attention - which in this case, is happiness at returning to playing mafia for the first time in a long time, not having to play as mafia AGAIN, and having a bunch of cool new people to contend with.
A) I'm familiar with overstating cases to check reactions - I do that myself (see, well, most of my D1 play in Redux Mirror, plus who knows how many games from back when 'Scum was still a fun place to play). The way you're attacking Iso? That's not town overstating a case to check reactions - you're too indirect, and you're not scrutinizing any players EXCEPT Iso.
B) I don't see happiness in your posts here. I see resignation papered over with a faked smile and manipulation.
Indirect? And you want me to be wagoning multiple targets besides yourself and Iso at this stage of the game, and think it's a tell that I wasn't... (This is my bafflement ellipses)
*thinks* Unnatural happiness. So that's what you're reacting to. I can understand that.
I think it was Taredas who said that it looked like I wasn't taking the game seriously and that that wasn't the Azrael that he'd been led to expect to see. Serious, dreadnought-post Az is definitely one aspect of my personality, but this is the other, and the two of them are far from inseparable. Whenever I may appear to be simply goofing off, I'm also taking the game quite seriously. It's a game after all, and there's no good reason not to send the mafia to the gallows with a nice, broad grin plastered across your face.
Got an example of yourself behaving this way as town? See, I remember you being non-serious early on in Redux Invit - but the tone was different, and it transitioned into your serious mode as you got more reads - as opposed to OtR/Cyberspace, where your tone was like this for the entire game.
I'm non-serious at the start of pretty much all my games, and we're not exactly growing old in the tooth yet, here.
This is especially apparent when you compare it to how much work he put into voting Taredas.
Scummity scum scum. Vote Azrael
Should I pan this particular prong on the basis that I haven't actually voted for Taredas, because you've forgotten how much I exaggerate cases, or because it's based on your bogus initial point?
Also, the internet seems to have eaten my quote where Taredas proves he's scum. His first one in this thread. I'm too lazy to go back and quote it. Deal with it. vote Taredas. Not a random vote. Don't worry Iso, you're next.
Choke on your words and die, scum.
Oh, right. I'm afraid our time together just wasn't all that memorable for me. More of a one night-stand mixed with a haze of alcohol.
Levity aside, I do like the triumphant sense of "a-ha, evil-doer!" you demonstrate here. *thumbs up*
As for the Iso case, I'm actually mildly less frightened of him after his more recent showings, and it's certainly true that he gambits like crazy. What I haven't seen him do, and what struck me as unusual for him, was how he started making threats when I panned his attack on Tammy. That doesn't seem typical of him to me - does it to you?
Oh hey look. Az seems to back off of Iso slightly, then goes right back on the attack with new reasoning - read: scum who's trying to get the mislynch but can't commit 100% because he'll take too much blowback.
Also, note the tone here. Az is indirect - Iso's behavior is "unusual", "not typical". That's not how he attacked people in Redux Invit - he was much more direct, much more willing to call people scum to their face. Here, he's reluctant to do that.
Why? Because he's scum and *KNOWS* that Iso isn't actually scum. He doesn't believe his attack.
Or just possibly I'm in the process of changing my mind as he makes his first large, serious posts for us to analyze.
You don't like 'fakery'? lolwut? You run dumb fake random gambits on a regular basis, as both alignments. And I would say that 'just going through the motions' is precisely what you were guilty of early in the game. So please, tell us more about how you don't like your own behavior in this game.
Gambits can be authentic or inauthentic too, Cyan. If someone is running a gambit, they can do it in either an authentic townie fashion or an inauthentic scummy fashion, and I don't count the former as fakery.
Btw, whatever happened to your Godzilla avvie? You know, the one with the cute and unswervingly applicable caption?
Note the underlined sentence. It's pure conflict avoidance - trying to distract/divert Cyan instead of actually addressing his arguments. You know, like scum do.
More of a riposte, actually, referencing Cyan's reputation.
Actually, no - the crux of my case is "Az is not a bad player and knows how I play and get results, therefore the fact that he is playing badly and inhibiting my results means he is likely scum (as townAz is not a bumbling buffoon like you're pretending to be so convincingly in this game) in addition to not following up his (or my) attacks in a townie way, and to top it all off, he's fishing for my role - so let's lynch him."
But I mean, you're welcome to strawman all you want. You're only a vote away from claim range, after all.
Perhaps you're failing to grasp that my respect for your play is not infinite, ineffable, or unvarying? More likely you're just exaggerating the hell out of your case for fun or ad homming me for reactions, or maybe to tilt an easy lynch. Which is cool, I get that, but you could at least confine yourself to accusations that are remotely close to reality. 'Spose that isn't good scum play, though.
I especially like the way I'm supposed to be straw-manning you for accurately summing up, describing, and responding to your post. That's an especially slick Machiavellan touch, there.
My little Iso is all grown up now. *teary eyes*
Again, look at how Azrael phrases his attacks. Look at the tone. He's indirect, calling everything scummy without coming out and directly saying Iso is scum.
This isn't how a townie pushes a lynch they believe in. This isn't how Azrael pushed ZDS/Axelrod/DYH/Cyan in Redux Invit. This is how scum push a mislynch target - like Az pushed Iso in Cyberspace, or AE in OtR.
Claim and/or die, scum.
Yeah, this was one of the posts I made while slowly falling out of love with the idea that Iso was scum. So if it sounds like I didn't really think he was scum, well, it's because I was starting to think that maybe he wasn't.
I wasn't a fan of Taredas' post at all when I first read it, there were a lot of attacks I thought were pretty off-target, but on second look it seems pretty clear that he genuinely believes in what he's talking about. There are a lot of hallmarks of a townie who's very sure of his views and unafraid to express them strongly and decisively. Taredas is town.
Next up, DC. Probably Monday/Tuesday, dunno if I'll be checking in much while visiting family this weekend or not.
And you voted me, a person you had indicated as reading town, over Nacho, a person you indicated as reading scum, over the reasoning of 'our role claims'.
I know who looks to have screwed the pooch on common logic more than the other.
Are there any other major points in the KOL case at this point?
Not too much a fan of thors oh she's not doing anything she can't fake as it matches nothing like crosstown 2 where he declared that he's decent at reading me and matches more ny169 where he spent a whole bunch of time waxing about whether or not my anger was fake.
Riiiiiight. Because claiming "decent at reading you" means that I also claim "inability to assess that i think you're capabale of faking a certain level of emotion"
I'm *sorry* that unlike some people I think you are capable of deception. Are you saying I'm wrong about that? Because otherwise I don't get the gist of this thrust...like, at all. Talk to me, feel free to go all (fake?) emotional too, we can work with that.
You were town in crosstown 2 when you claimed the abilit to read me and scum in ny169 when the majority of your time revolved around egads but couldn't that be fake anger? Ger golly gosh didn't she speed through emotions a little too quickly? Could be fake but nacho says she can't? Hrm oh gee but when you read the meta you start to believe she can't...LET ME DWELL ON THIS AWHILE SO I LOOK BUSY.
So yeah, you feel similar because being able to read someone or thinking you can doesn't mean you think that person has no capability at deception, it means you think you have the ability to discern when they are being deceptive. My scum games sucks, but I have won scum games, yes. I have even won scum games while being everyone's town resd, yes. But that wasn't the point of the statement and you know it. You have, as town, claimed an ability to decipher the difference and as scum, suddenly not been able to.
I think it looks fake on your point, and your attempt to bait me while super cute is silly and terrible. If you want to talk about the game with me, feel free. But what you're obviously trying to do is elicit an emotional response to keep busy, and quite frankly I'd rather go water my plants.
But I mean sure, let's do an exercise in motivations here. What scum motivation did I have for my first day in this game? Emotional manipulation? Okay let's explore that. Who did I hope to manipulate? Nacho, okay I can see that, doubt it would work but he'd probably be inclined to give me room for a few days because I said I needed it. Nati, maaaaaaybe. I guess I could hope it would inspire fate's white knight tendencies. Anybody else? Nope. In fact, I'd run the danger of getting the entire mtgs crew after me, after all look what happened with Vi last game. You or dgb? Yeah, no.
So, what am I hoping to gain because no matter how much my scum game sucks, I'm not stupid. And that would be very high risk for little to no reward. So as an attempt at manipulation goes it sucks.
Maybe I hoped that people wouldn't attack me for fear of having to fake an emotional reaction EXCEPT that doesn't work from your point of view because you think I'm capable, and by saying I needed a break I ran the risk of being pushed by people who didn't believe me. So, what did I hope to gain.
Now, if you want to dismiss all that and go you know what maybe Tammy is just having a hard time right now, and because she has a tendency to get emotional, which you know because you've played with me enough to know including and especially ny169 which if I trace the roots of where this building frustration with mafia and the players began its that game and I'm actively avoiding playing with the main person to antagonize me that game for her personal *****s and giggles, and say it's alignment irrelevant, she just needs a break, then hey savvy, but this fake emotion bs you're peddling is weak.
I think, no I'm pretty sure, I'd be able to channel this frustration into delicious distractions if I were scum instead of saying I need to take a break. Me wanting to step back for my own sanity and to keep from derailing the game is exceedingly town, which you'd probably be able to recognize if you actually knew how to read me or was actually trying.
@DGB - do you want to weigh in on the timeline of your lynch all delayed claims thing? Because it is pretty interesting to me that you're not, and I'd like to see you commit to some very specific comments about why not. If it's "too early" in this game - when does it become "not too early?" Please be as specific as you can.
Azrael is the first wagon and it was on page 5 or so.
I'm actually starting to worry a bit at how he's grown quiet, though.
That is pretty pointedly *not* answering my question.
DGB - are you honestly claiming lack of playing with cranky Thor-town? This is a yes or no question.
You're always cranky, it's a matter of level, LOL.
Yeah, LOL, so funny, so funny...though it makes you bringing it up in the first place pretty weaksauce then.
I'd note that I have a scum read off of you for your actions this page, but I already had a scumread on you. At least now I don't need to call it policy as much as I otherwise would have.
Could you be a dear and point me to a time when *town* you declared dgb a policy lynch. Tia!
Yeah my kidneys are failing and I'm constantly nauseated and drowsy. I have a few years ahead of me of this getting worse before (1) dialysis or (2) transplant.
Don't forget to sign your donor cars and drive motorcycles blindfolded.
You probably wouldn't want my kidneys though, can I drive sans blindfold?
I'm pretty excited to read Thor once he gets out of his "look, I'm doing things normal people don't do!" RVS phase.
Yeah, when I move into me "Look, I'm doing things normal people don't do!" middle of the day phase I'm much more workable.
The dC logic still feels weak to me because I actually agree with him that Az looked theatrical - insomuch as he came across like he was overplaying things, which is really just a fancy way of saying the stuff he's done feels a little fake.
I agree with your Iso and Tar reads.
I have no idea why you also find Tammy or Hooker so town at this stage. They haven't done much,a nd what they have done is pretty...meh.
I find Az scummy.
I don't find dC particularly scummy.
I find Ced worse than you do.
Couple things...
Do you agree with his fate town read?
Since you find everything I've done as meh, but you also think ced is bad, did you just skip over my issues with ced or do you have other independent issues with him?
What do you find scummy about Az?
Either way, we're all gonna burn
Here nati.
Either way, we're all gonna burn
Either way, we're all gonna burn
Either way, we're all gonna burn
Either way, we're all gonna burn
Was it on page 5?
Riiiiiight. Because claiming "decent at reading you" means that I also claim "inability to assess that i think you're capabale of faking a certain level of emotion"
I'm *sorry* that unlike some people I think you are capable of deception. Are you saying I'm wrong about that? Because otherwise I don't get the gist of this thrust...like, at all. Talk to me, feel free to go all (fake?) emotional too, we can work with that.
Above is;
@Tammy
Here's Hooker's post.
I didn't town read you.
But I won't mind it if you end up dead overnight. If that makes you feel better.
Either way, we're all gonna burn
That is Zen.
I'm one step away from nothingness.
Vote DGB if you want to lynch scum. Some things are just that simple
Nacho.
My friend.
Don't miss another meet, I'm awake now.
Let's be town together for the first time in years
Tammy and Hooker as town. The rest of them are more interesting avenues, than reads.
When I get back, I'm going to take a hard look at Taredas' latest.
Is Thor ever not cranky?
So your "omg solid Iso scumread" is just an avenue now? What changed?
Also, anyone who thinks Tare is scum after his case on you is deluding themselves.
@Nati: I haven't townread you yet
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I figured out that you talk and act like a Bond villain when your ego comes into play, and that was the missing piece.
He's always cranky, but he's crankier when scum.
I read him as town the last game because he was less cranky than usual. He bungled his role, unfortunetaly.
Unfortunately for her, there are a couple modifiers. First off, I'm also more likely to be cranky due to some other factors (work, personal life, dealing with play I consider bad, et al) Second, and fascinatingly true, I'm more likely to be cranky in all my games if I'm scum in any one of them. If I actually pull scum in too many games at once I can lose the enjoyment of the entire game of Mafia, and that has happened to me.
But, yes, it is possible to get me as non-cranky. You've even probably seen me non-cranky in these games, just only for given moments and hardly for entire games. I don't think I've ever been un-cranky for an entire game before for at least a few years now.
@DGB - do you want to weigh in on the timeline of your lynch all delayed claims thing? Because it is pretty interesting to me that you're not, and I'd like to see you commit to some very specific comments about why not. If it's "too early" in this game - when does it become "not too early?" Please be as specific as you can.
DGB - are you honestly claiming lack of playing with cranky Thor-town? This is a yes or no question.
I believe you figured that out in Cyberspace, as well. Did you not remember this? Surely you knew it's in my personality and playstyle to be theatrical.
Fair 'nuff.
Yeah I like how Kami hasn't commented on any of the allegations directed towards her.
Kami do you have a post restriction where you can't respond to cases
It's okay if so just tell me
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Azrael is the first wagon and it was on page 5 or so.
I'm actually starting to worry a bit at how he's grown quiet, though.
You're always cranky, it's a matter of level, LOL.
Gonna plead the fifth.
Az/Kami/ced
I could see it
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
That is pretty pointedly *not* answering my question.
Yeah, LOL, so funny, so funny...though it makes you bringing it up in the first place pretty weaksauce then.
I'd note that I have a scum read off of you for your actions this page, but I already had a scumread on you. At least now I don't need to call it policy as much as I otherwise would have.
Wow, missed this.
You know what was bungled?
You helping to lynch me after my claim.
That was bungled.
Also, was anyone else having trouble accessing the site yesterday?
@Azrael
Really? World Domination 2? Ancient history that had two scum teams, one with an alternate win condition, and where I died night 1?
While, much much more recently, I played against scum-you in Cyberspace, and where you were literally the only scum member I didn't pinpoint day 1? The game where your early game had almost exactly the same kind of overly 'whimsical' and predatory feel rather than the methodical approach you tend to take as town?
As for 'entrapment'... your 'case' on Iso was that he was running a gambit, badly. And how in the world would a theoretical town-Iso be able to respond to that in any way that wouldn't leave open avenues of attack? There was nothing inquisitive about that 'case'. You weren't asking, you were pouncing.
My reasoning's on the board now. I'm pretty certain Taredas and ced have made their reasoning clear as well. Your move.
Oh, really?
Because if you're going to bring up ancient history, then I would think you'd remember that my posting schedule in more recent years has been generally at best once per two days, which is what I was trying to do yesterday when I couldn't get the site to open. Ioday is the third day from my previous post. 'Really quiet'. Heh.
That last line is also blatant fearmongering, especially from someone that earlier said something about 'eh, I think we have enough data points'.
@Nachomamma (also, Re: Nachomamma, for the rest of you)
I find this whole post slightly incongruent with the fact that you voted me on the post directly before this. Especially given that your more recent posts imply that was a serious vote.
See above for what I meant by entrapment tactics. There was nothing Iso could possibly have said that wouldn't leave valid avenues of attack, and additionally Azrael sounded way too sure of himself.
...I also find it rather interesting that Azrael basically regurgitated the very same characterization of him that you state here.
Riddle me this, Nacho. You seem very interested in taking pressure off Azrael, without actually engaging anyone (well, other than myself, who you are voting) on the points against him. Why is that?
@Taredas
I didn't like the way he basically totally backed off Tammy with that huge apology and such. Felt a bit fake. Didn't feel fake enough for me to believe Azrael's 'case', though.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
(7 to lynch)
Azrael (5): Cyan, Taredas, Iso, desCoures, Thor665
Iso (2): Azrael, HookerPunch
Kami of Lunacy (1): Zen_Soul
ced395 (1): Tammy
desCoures (1): Nachomamma8
Abstain (2): Kami of Lunacy, ced395
The deadline is May 9, 15 days from now.
Either way, we're all gonna burn
I miss Fate.
I think Iso and Azrael both show a marked interest in their scumhunting that they've lacked in recent showing as scum, meaning they are actually town this time or they stepped it the **** up.
Az's initial attack on Iso is just a tiny, tiny bit ridiculous (gambits are gambits because they are risks, that means good players make *****ty gambits because you are not always rewarded when you risk), but I can see where he's coming from and there are overall not any egregious misreps.
I think Iso's response to Azrael was ******* incredibly town in an adorable sort of way. I don't think scumIso picks up a bit of early game suspicion from Az and freaks the **** out. I do think townIso thinks scumAz is attacking him, gets a sniff of the glory immediately pegging Az would bring, and then flips the **** out.
I actually read Tar's post this time around, and it actually feels like there's more life in a single post than there was in all of Dark Age, particularly in the "I know how it feels" bit.
Iso-Azrael was just as boring the second time as it was the first: :(. It just feels like both sides overestimated the other (Azrael expecting Iso to make great gambits, Iso expecting Azrael to like his gambit and team up with him in the process).
My dC case began because "over theatrics and entrapment" was his initial attack. I don't think being dramatic is a scumtell for anyone really, and I don't think it's a duty of a town player to give the person they're attacking "outs" (whatever the **** that means). I currently don't like how dC thinks theatrics are a scumtell because of one game he played with Azrael (I assume they have a bit more history than this), and the entrapment accusation continues to be questionable (maybe I'm just not understanding it, though: how can Azrael respond to your case that doesn't leave a valid avenue of attack?).
I post in chunks because I'm on an iPad, dC. The vote was a serious vote and the reasons I voted you came in my second post.
Why is it interesting that Azrael agrees with my take on his meta?
I'm engaging your points because they come from the least genuine place. Cyan reasons are also bad, but I don't expect him to listen, ditto Iso.
Fate
Tammy
Natirasha
Azrael
Taredas
Iso
NOT AS TOWN:
DGB
Cyan
Thor
Ced
SCUM THAT NEEDS TO DIE:
dC
I'm gonna be sheeping fate onto DGB if this whole dC thing doesn't work out, so you can vote there at your leisure instead of bad votes on town.
Tammy: I sound like a Robot because I am actually a CTD alt (which is illegal, I know, but mods haven't found out yet).
Fate: <3
I will be in California in May!
You didn't send an action Night 1 as you should have, dunderhead.
Yeah my kidneys are failing and I'm constantly nauseated and drowsy. I have a few years ahead of me of this getting worse before (1) dialysis or (2) transplant.
Don't forget to sign your donor cars and drive motorcycles blindfolded.
Thor's BS-meter is pretty high and his behavior reminds me of the first game in this series where he was scum, and not the second where he was town and RELATIVELY more relaxed and friendly. Here we're back with the BS Day 1 DGB-policy-lynch distraction. He's not calling it that, but that's what it is.
Yeah, when I move into me "Look, I'm doing things normal people don't do!" middle of the day phase I'm much more workable.
The dC logic still feels weak to me because I actually agree with him that Az looked theatrical - insomuch as he came across like he was overplaying things, which is really just a fancy way of saying the stuff he's done feels a little fake.
I agree with your Iso and Tar reads.
I have no idea why you also find Tammy or Hooker so town at this stage. They haven't done much,a nd what they have done is pretty...meh.
I find Az scummy.
I don't find dC particularly scummy.
I find Ced worse than you do.
And you voted me, a person you had indicated as reading town, over Nacho, a person you indicated as reading scum, over the reasoning of 'our role claims'.
I know who looks to have screwed the pooch on common logic more than the other.
You're right, I'm not calling it that because I've pointed out things you've done that I've found objectionable and explained why - making it...y'know, not just a policy lynch.
I don't recall you ever finding me town in any game. Is my memory failing?
Pretty natural tone here - this definitely reads like something off the top of his head.
Thoughtful question, detailed. He's paying attention.
Well, I don't find the logic of people acting differently than you aspect=scum as particularly persuasive, but he phrases it like he actually believes it. The ellipses, in particular.
Do you think Cyan is town, Taredas? The ellipses there seems oddly placed. I don't have any particularly strong feelings about Cyan myself, but you seem taken aback there.
Maybe other scum say things like, I dunno, but I actually mean it. I get so little practice getting attacked by five people at once most of the time as town. It was actually kind of fun for about half a second, before it became really depressing that I might actually get lynched.
The brevity is more of a function that two days ago I was in the middle of changing jobs and becoming a supervisor, and I didn't exactly have an abundance of time or energy right at that particular moment. Not sure what post you're reading if you think I wasn't pointing out why the cases were incorrect - that was the entire post. Style/belief points for the article quote, though.
Indirect? And you want me to be wagoning multiple targets besides yourself and Iso at this stage of the game, and think it's a tell that I wasn't... (This is my bafflement ellipses)
*thinks* Unnatural happiness. So that's what you're reacting to. I can understand that.
I'm non-serious at the start of pretty much all my games, and we're not exactly growing old in the tooth yet, here.
Oh, right. I'm afraid our time together just wasn't all that memorable for me. More of a one night-stand mixed with a haze of alcohol.
Levity aside, I do like the triumphant sense of "a-ha, evil-doer!" you demonstrate here. *thumbs up*
Or just possibly I'm in the process of changing my mind as he makes his first large, serious posts for us to analyze.
More of a riposte, actually, referencing Cyan's reputation.
Yeah, this was one of the posts I made while slowly falling out of love with the idea that Iso was scum. So if it sounds like I didn't really think he was scum, well, it's because I was starting to think that maybe he wasn't.
I wasn't a fan of Taredas' post at all when I first read it, there were a lot of attacks I thought were pretty off-target, but on second look it seems pretty clear that he genuinely believes in what he's talking about. There are a lot of hallmarks of a townie who's very sure of his views and unafraid to express them strongly and decisively. Taredas is town.
Next up, DC. Probably Monday/Tuesday, dunno if I'll be checking in much while visiting family this weekend or not.
but sure lets see whichever dC and Kami's wagon takes off.
:)Kay. It just seemed weird to suggest it at all after calling me town.
Lol
Poor nacho.
Are there any other major points in the KOL case at this point?
You were town in crosstown 2 when you claimed the abilit to read me and scum in ny169 when the majority of your time revolved around egads but couldn't that be fake anger? Ger golly gosh didn't she speed through emotions a little too quickly? Could be fake but nacho says she can't? Hrm oh gee but when you read the meta you start to believe she can't...LET ME DWELL ON THIS AWHILE SO I LOOK BUSY.
So yeah, you feel similar because being able to read someone or thinking you can doesn't mean you think that person has no capability at deception, it means you think you have the ability to discern when they are being deceptive. My scum games sucks, but I have won scum games, yes. I have even won scum games while being everyone's town resd, yes. But that wasn't the point of the statement and you know it. You have, as town, claimed an ability to decipher the difference and as scum, suddenly not been able to.
I think it looks fake on your point, and your attempt to bait me while super cute is silly and terrible. If you want to talk about the game with me, feel free. But what you're obviously trying to do is elicit an emotional response to keep busy, and quite frankly I'd rather go water my plants.
But I mean sure, let's do an exercise in motivations here. What scum motivation did I have for my first day in this game? Emotional manipulation? Okay let's explore that. Who did I hope to manipulate? Nacho, okay I can see that, doubt it would work but he'd probably be inclined to give me room for a few days because I said I needed it. Nati, maaaaaaybe. I guess I could hope it would inspire fate's white knight tendencies. Anybody else? Nope. In fact, I'd run the danger of getting the entire mtgs crew after me, after all look what happened with Vi last game. You or dgb? Yeah, no.
So, what am I hoping to gain because no matter how much my scum game sucks, I'm not stupid. And that would be very high risk for little to no reward. So as an attempt at manipulation goes it sucks.
Maybe I hoped that people wouldn't attack me for fear of having to fake an emotional reaction EXCEPT that doesn't work from your point of view because you think I'm capable, and by saying I needed a break I ran the risk of being pushed by people who didn't believe me. So, what did I hope to gain.
Now, if you want to dismiss all that and go you know what maybe Tammy is just having a hard time right now, and because she has a tendency to get emotional, which you know because you've played with me enough to know including and especially ny169 which if I trace the roots of where this building frustration with mafia and the players began its that game and I'm actively avoiding playing with the main person to antagonize me that game for her personal *****s and giggles, and say it's alignment irrelevant, she just needs a break, then hey savvy, but this fake emotion bs you're peddling is weak.
I think, no I'm pretty sure, I'd be able to channel this frustration into delicious distractions if I were scum instead of saying I need to take a break. Me wanting to step back for my own sanity and to keep from derailing the game is exceedingly town, which you'd probably be able to recognize if you actually knew how to read me or was actually trying.
Could you be a dear and point me to a time when *town* you declared dgb a policy lynch. Tia!
You probably wouldn't want my kidneys though, can I drive sans blindfold?
Couple things...
Do you agree with his fate town read?
Since you find everything I've done as meh, but you also think ced is bad, did you just skip over my issues with ced or do you have other independent issues with him?
What do you find scummy about Az?
Why aren't you looking me in the eyes and what do you think of ced?