Why would you want to apply pressure to someone you thought was scum wildfire? I... don't even know where to begin with this one.
I mean, I'm torn between whether you're scum or just bumbling town. I'd like to see where you go from here. The vote you put on Plum is a pretty decent start.
Also, it's hardly pressure if you *ask* me to do it.
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Is anyone caught up with votals? I am used to being able to track them better, but I wanted to confirm something. Basically I think people who want to lynch BE look bad because it is pretty easy to go after the guy swinging his fists around a lot. I see menu voted him but then discovered he was probably town like I did. Is it just SelesnyaNewLife now? I think it might be.
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Hmmm, maybe. I have been quite busy but I suppose that isn't a great excuse.
If you want to know, the person who has interested me most so far is Chris. He seems unusually subdued. I wanted to keep seeing what he was going to do
I'm asking you to do it because if you're town you seem pretty content to let everyone else do the work for you.
I'm currently hitched to a wagon, and I don't think it's reached its destination quite yet. I'll move my vote when I'm good and ready.
I'm perfectly content to let you prove yourself scum or show that you've got town's interests at heart. Goading me to vote you "if I'm town" is hardly winning you points.
As far as I'm concerned the only mistake I've made was to enter the topic with an RNG vote because I knew I was late. Otherwise I've provoked discussion got you to contribute something and worked out B_E is almost certainly town.
There were a few blunders in your early posts, besides the RVS vote. Namely, I don't like how you've threatened voting/lynching at several players for disagreeing with or questioning you. Most of your reads before the Plum one seemed to be simple backlash to people reacting (IMO, correctly) to you, rather than analysis of behavior independent of your blunders.
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It worries me that you are choose the language "content to let you prove yourself scum." I usually like to see people push on others to make them make mistakes. Instead you just want to sit back and see what happens? Not a town approach.
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It worries me that you are choose the language "content to let you prove yourself scum." I usually like to see people push on others to make them make mistakes. Instead you just want to sit back and see what happens? Not a town approach.
He's trying to goad me into voting him. I don't really see how putting my vote on him in that situation is going to actually apply any pressure to him.
He's active. He's posting. He's saying some questionable things as he does.
So yeah, I'm going to watch him, closely, and see where he is going. If his behavior were to change, then I think we'd be in a situation where my vote would be both warranted and helpful. Right now it's some of the first but little of the second.
Anyhow, I had a followup for plum:
It seems like I'm the only person you've given a concrete read on thus far.
What are your thoughts on Burning Earth?
How about Dels?
Anybody else you'd like to call out?
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I took "self-conscious, but not obvscum" to mean that he found the behavior scummy, but not 100% so, hence lean, but I guess it'd be better to hear from Hunger.
Not obvscum as in, "hey guys this guy is obvscum and you are dumb if you aren't voting him," but nonetheless, I am leaning scum on him at the moment.
@Wizard - I'm not going to argue your vote on me as it's highly predicated on how you view my playstyle, but there is 9 pages of content, what do you think about BE, Dels, and Wildfire? Seems like it would be tough to not have some opinion on them with the amount of content they have.
I don't like this response. It's very deflective. "I'm not going to argue with your vote HEY LOOK OVER THERE WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THOSE GUYS INSTEAD?!"
But I'll answer your question, sure.
BE seems like a very aggressive guy, and is doing far more than he would need too if he was scum. I don't know him of course, but in general people who post without fear or caring about they look tend to be town, in my experience.
Dels seems to be earnestly trying to find scum, he feels pretty towny, too.
Wildfire seems to have an unfortunate habit of speaking for others, I don't really like that. I prefer when people fight their own battles.
Is the deadline really in May? That's killing a lot of my drive, sorry guys
I'm really not sure on BE. I like how open he is. Usually new scum tend to play much more passively as scum and BE has come out guns blazing. At the same time though I had an iron town read on him last game (albeit I was scum I still knew he wasn't a third party) and this game I haven't seen anything. By the end of the day if he isn't town I should probably be able to tell. If I can't he probably is scum.
Dels is very good. I can't say anything about him yet.
Hmmm. Other then blade who needs to be pmed on gamefaqs and I should probably message the host with it, I don't think anyone needs to be called out yet. By me at least. I work best through reactions and information, and it's hard to force both of those things.
Well, not true, but if you flipped out over self meta then you would certainly flip out over forcing interaction. Nobody really does it like I do. I'll resort to that if needed
Wildfire seems to have an unfortunate habit of speaking for others, I don't really like that. I prefer when people fight their own battles.
This is something I've *always* had a problem with. I've even gotten a lot better about it recently - you should see my first games.
Quote from MenuWars »
B_E barely acknowledged my blunders... he was my second vote... so I'm not seeing where you're drawing that conclusion. Also I never called Crossfiyah scum for voting me because of his awful attack on my post... I just showed him where he was wrong, which is a direct contradiction to what you're alluding to.
Though it may appear to be, right now I think a random vote is still the best course of action until more content is available for me to decipher and judge accordingly.
Not everyone has posted yet. I see no reason to unvote. Who are you to decide when a certain way of voting is redundant?
I could vote you instead for echoing what wildfire said if you'd prefer?
Here you attack Dels and threaten to vote him because he attacked your RVS vote. Note that I did the same thing (to which you had no response), and Chris did something very similar (and you town-cleared him)
Just answer the bloody question. Or don't and I'll lynch you. Upto you really.
Again, you're threatening a lynch just because he's doing things differently than you are. Not just a vote (which is already on him), but you're somehow going to manifest six additional votes and make this a lynch.
You are correct that your vote on him was not related to his interaction with you, but it definitely seemed prompted more as an immediate response to what he'd just posted than as an analysis of his total posting history in this thread.
Then, with barely any additional interaction with him, you decide he's definitely town and you're off on plum now.
And when I start criticizing you, you say you've got a scumread on me.
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I took "self-conscious, but not obvscum" to mean that he found the behavior scummy, but not 100% so, hence lean, but I guess it'd be better to hear from Hunger.
Not obvscum as in, "hey guys this guy is obvscum and you are dumb if you aren't voting him," but nonetheless, I am leaning scum on him at the moment.
@Wizard - I'm not going to argue your vote on me as it's highly predicated on how you view my playstyle, but there is 9 pages of content, what do you think about BE, Dels, and Wildfire? Seems like it would be tough to not have some opinion on them with the amount of content they have.
I don't like this response. It's very deflective. "I'm not going to argue with your vote HEY LOOK OVER THERE WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THOSE GUYS INSTEAD?!"
But I'll answer your question, sure.
BE seems like a very aggressive guy, and is doing far more than he would need too if he was scum. I don't know him of course, but in general people who post without fear or caring about they look tend to be town, in my experience.
Dels seems to be earnestly trying to find scum, he feels pretty towny, too.
Wildfire seems to have an unfortunate habit of speaking for others, I don't really like that. I prefer when people fight their own battles.
Is the deadline really in May? That's killing a lot of my drive, sorry guys
I'm not trying to redirect. I was simply pointing out that you come in late to the game, and clearly if you are aware of my actions then you have read the thread, yet the only thing you do is place a vote on me with minimal explanation and don't make any comment about the 3 people with half the posts in the game. I found it a bit odd so I wanted to press you to actually give some other reads.
I agree with you on both BE and Dels so far, though I need to reread the Dels/Wildfire interactions and didn't have time today.
Wildfire definitely does have that habit. Last game I played with him I think he was told to stop answering for others at least a half dozen times. I was pretty sure he was scum for the first half of the game until I realized that even new scum wouldn't be dumb enough to keep spouting off like that when they have been repeatedly told not to and that he was probably town (he was). I don't think that should town clear him this game, but rather I don't think it's indicative of alignment for him.
Hm, I am changing my vote now. Mostly because the last post by Hunger adds up to a sum 0 in terms of content.
Unvote Wildfire
Vote Hunger
I mean it is okay to not really want to get into votes and all, but his point about Wildfire is the type that bothers me. He gives not insight, but facts. Like "This person did that." Anyone who knew the game could have said that, and his summation was "it happened, and it doesn't mean anything." Just very stand offish. Also despite what he says it does seem like he was trying to change the subject so here's a vote.
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Your interactions thus far have been point fingers without doing much, you seem to be more of a pot stirrer but not in an im looking for reactions sort of way *My vote on B_E, and pushing him for answers, which he laughed off, telling me he's very likely obstinate town* Questiong Plum whilst doing so because his drive wasn't there and I had a bad feeling about him.
He gave some reads with some justification, I'm getting a better feel for him now. All more information for town.
You would like I stay silent? Not promote discourse? Not point out inaccuracies and untownlike behaviour?
I notice you fail to recognise the glaring inconsistencies in your own attack on me btw.
Everything seems to be taken to the extreme with you. That is the overall point I've been trying to make. You're not just defensive, you're defensive with the threat of OMGUS voting. You're not just pressuring with your vote, you're threatening a lynch when a player doesn't react the way you want them to (regardless of whether or not that makes them scum).
I seek reactions and answers in my own way. Sometimes, that involves me voting (see Dels). It does not always have to. You've given me more in our back and forth than I would expect to get from a vote on you.
Quote from Burning_Earth »
Oh, I forgot to say this
I will refuse to claim at L-2 and I suggest you all do so.
You want to justify this one?
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Wildfire: What do you expect BE to say to justify that? Put yourself in his shoes for a moment. What would be YOUR reason for refusing to claim? And in fact suggesting it for everyone? Think of it as roleplay.
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Wildfire: What do you expect BE to say to justify that? Put yourself in his shoes for a moment. What would be YOUR reason for refusing to claim? And in fact suggesting it for everyone? Think of it as roleplay.
Refusing to claim myself would likely be because I had a power that would become worthless if I claimed it, like Bulletproof, Paranoid Gun Owner, Ascetic, etc.
Telling others to refuse to claim.... I can't see a good reason for. Do you want dead PRs? Because that's how you get dead PRs.
I mean, I guess he could make the argument that he thinks the scum have expertly-crafted falseclaims and that this will result in the saving of scum who claim. I could also just see scum motivation in hopes that we lynch our PRs without giving them a chance to clear themselves.
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If I may, only because I believe I have a read on BE (thus why I have defended him) I am putting myself in his shoes as well. I see a brash person who likes to be in control of situations, and has too little experience to understand that over confidence in this game is just as deadly as not. So regardless of his actual thoughts he presents a very strong front. By conceding to his point about claims, his power within the game grows and with the confidence he feels he can influence the game. This really is a town method of going about things for someone so inexperienced from my experience. You attack, you influence, you dismantle scum.
The sole reason I am stepping in on his behalf is I have a genuine belief he is town, and I also have a genuine belief that I am one of the most patient people I have ever seen when it comes to people playing this game badly. I think he is an accident waiting to happen if he continues on.
Although, I will say this: we don't get dead PRs if town suspects the right people. Perhaps a distant dream, but I like to think that even with BE's policy we could do something right. Not so confident, Wildfire?
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I've had a townread on BE as well, which is why I was so thrown by his comment, as I'm having a hard time fitting it into a town mindset.
I haven't played that many games, but I've yet to see a day one where a PR doesn't get brought to claimrange.
Between BE's "don't claim", and Master Plum's urge to give us a short deadline plus his accusation that, as a new player, I *can't* have determined someone is scum this quickly all seems to add up to a situation I'm not liking much: Pick a wagon without the time necessary to truly determine if they're scum, and ride it to completion as quickly as possible with no claim.
It just sounds like a recipe for disaster.
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Yeah, Plum is my friend but I can't always say I agree with his mafia logic. I come from shorter days too, but I am in no mind to impose any sort of harsh deadline. It makes for unforced errors from town members who aren't used to such things, I think. Scum could have the same problem I suppose, but town tend to post more as a matter of nature.
I can't believe Plum said that about new players, I think I said so at the time.
So what is your opinion on my vote of Hunger? You and Menu look like you could use a break from one another.
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Hunger's the only player in this game I've played with before. And in that game we both had varying levels of scum read on each other and were both town. So I don't have a ton of confidence in my ability to read him.
That said, his play so far has been pretty similar to that game. He pops in early with nuggets of insight and votes where he has them, but he's not a constant stream of content.
So my conclusion is that I don't personally think he's scum, but I don't think that you are blatantly wrong in thinking he is. Objectively, it seems like a fine vote.
My one qualm about the vote is the fact that you have unvoted me in the process, despite having taken issue with several things I've said since placing your vote on me including recently. Has your read on me changed? Or do you just think Hunger is scummier?
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Something of an in between: you have someone keeping you busy. I often play day one to make people generate content for the game in a way so that I can read into it. My vote on you, at this stage, is a bit of a waste. I don't think it alters anything you do. You appear earnest at times, I just have to figure out if the other times are simple misunderstandings or if the earnest times are just you being better at hiding your intent.
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One thing I will say: nothing in mafia is objective, and it is the only thing about your post that bothered me, actually. Objective is for robots. We play this game subjectively, it is what makes us different. Scum often like to make objective arguments to distance themselves from their true nature. If you are town I suggest leaving it at your opinion. It's what I really care about.
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One thing I will say: nothing in mafia is objective, and it is the only thing about your post that bothered me, actually. Objective is for robots. We play this game subjectively, it is what makes us different. Scum often like to make objective arguments to distance themselves from their true nature. If you are town I suggest leaving it at your opinion. It's what I really care about.
I simply meant that I can understand where your vote is coming from. If I did not have former experience with Hunger I would likely be more suspicious of him.
Something of an in between: you have someone keeping you busy. I often play day one to make people generate content for the game in a way so that I can read into it. My vote on you, at this stage, is a bit of a waste. I don't think it alters anything you do. You appear earnest at times, I just have to figure out if the other times are simple misunderstandings or if the earnest times are just you being better at hiding your intent.
Good answer.
I might have missed this, but what is your read on Plum?
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To answer a simple question I will give you a complicated answer. Plum and I go very, very far back. We have been playing some form of mafia with each other for half a decade now. I have played in at least one hundred games of mafia with him. I have a list of tells on him a mile wide. And I am currently doing my best to forget every single one of them for this game. Different environment, many people whose style of play is as foreign to me as mine is to them, and thus the things I usually rely on are shifted in a way. Could a tell I have be correct? Yes, but such reads are delicate and so I am reading Plum as if it is for the first time. I have, up until this point, mostly glossed over him and if you have noticed given a firm look at people who I do not know. You, Hunger now, reading into BE. I want to become more familiar with you first so that if my reads bleed they will at least have less of a distance to close. But, that said, I will skim now because it is 8 AM, I am marathon watching the Good Wife, and my book is not tempting me into the realm of fiction writing at present. Also sorry that was so verbose, I slip into that when in a writing mood.
Plum:
He does something this game, at times, that bothers me. He gives short responses but still manages to sneak in extra words. I used to do that when I didn't know what to say and my essays were word counted. He'll add verbal ticks like "hmm", modifiers like "quite", and he doesn't end up saying much in any one of his posts. Lots of one word answers. In a single he tells Leo that "you" have the power to decide deadline. Feels like a scum who knows Leo is town. If Plum is scum, I would use that post to defend Leo. I don't think someone with as much experience as scum as Plum gets so personal with a scumbuddy. Feels almost buddying. It's a small thing.
Speaking of that I thought Kaze had a stronger case to vote Plum when he voted Dels some pages back. I feel like noting that.
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Why do you jump from me saying I can't defend myself against your vote because you didn't make the reasons clear, to saying I am upset I don't have a soapbox. Have you already reached the point where you believe I'm scum so strongly that everything I say seems to harbor a hidden meaning?
You say scum are more likely to be self-aware, but this is clearly not true. I mean, you already listed three players who were self-aware. Myself, Plum, and Chris. Hunger just made a post talking about his own playstyle too, so add him in. Obviously, all four aren't scum. So townies are clearly capable of being self-aware too. You may feel that being self-aware is scummy, but there is no standard definition of what is and isn't scummy. It all depends on the player, don't you agree?
Anyway, I continue to dislike your posting style. You quote people's posts and then briefly comment on certain parts of them. Its like that big catch-up post, but in mini format. You're posting lots of little comments, but nothing really stands out and I can't quite tell which parts are things you really care about and are trying to make a point about, versus which are just observations.
@B_E
Why do you feel the need to state the players you believe are town, when you already declared the three-man scum team with complete certainty?
@Wildfire:
I think we got off on the wrong foot and ended up arguing about some things that we probably shouldn't have. I'm actually feeling a lot better about you now, and I propose that we should be allies! Do you accept?
@Hunger:
I understand that you are the type of player who needs more time before they can start coming to conclusions. I can tell from the way certain people here are playing that it is considered good play around here to fake overconfidence and make arguments you don't fully believe in, just to get things moving and pressure people. Perhaps you don't feel comfortable doing this, since you don't like giving opinions until you are sure about them? (Is that an accurate statement?) What if I asked you to put that aside right now and just give me some gut feelings you've had? Have there been any posts that stood out to you? Any players that you just instinctively trust, or have a gut feeling they might be scum? Even if you're far from being sure about it, just give me something. I promise I won't hold it against you if you turn out to be wrong or if I disagree.
@RobotWizard:
I feel like you are giving a very surface-level analysis of the game. Granted, you have only made maybe 2 or 3 posts with content so far, but I already notice this trend of you stating things that are very general. Just a few examples: You justify your vote on Hunger by saying that town are "usually" more paranoid than that. You say BE seems town because, "in general", people who are agressive like that are town. Saying you don't like that Wildfire speaks for others. But these are just general guidelines or opinions that could apply to any game. It doesn't feel like you're actually treating this game as its own entity and trying to read these specific players. It feels more like you have a checklist of things to look out for and are just matching them to various players.
@Chris:
Your post about "Who are the votes on B_E?" stood out to me. There were only two votes on him...and you cleared Menu right away, so really, you were only talking about Selesnya. I am having trouble putting this into words (been typing this paragraph for like 3 minutes lol) but it just seems, well, odd, to say "People who voted B_E look bad" before mentioning that Selesnya is the main person you are talking about. Not just that, but does that mean you didn't actually go back and read Selesnya's vote? You didn't mention anything about the way in which Selesnya voted, and I don't think you have after this post either. Can you clarify for me why you worded this post the way you did? And what are your thoughts about Selesnya and his vote specifically?
I was looking at BE and vaguely recalling someone had voted for him. I worded it that way because of how obvious I believe BE looks, not because of what the others actually did. It's like saying it is dark out when the sun is beating down on me. As for the vote specifically, that got covered at the time of the vote if I remember it right.
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I have been feeling increasingly better about you, Dels, the more I see these kind of high-content posts. I think perhaps your very-early game is just starkly different from what I'm used to seeing here. I'm not sure how I feel about a full-blown alliance, but I can at least agree to a cease-fire. Unvote.
Right now, my gut's telling me that something's off about Kaze. I'll have to re-read him when I get the chance so I can put it into words, but Dels' observation of his posting style is spot-on. Vote Kazekirimaru.
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Oh god, imagine if we had this program on Board 8 and I was a mentor Dels.
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Yeah, I'm trying to wrap my head around that one too. The mentor chat thing is kind of what you make of it. Last time I had one, I didn't consult him much at all until some complex claim situations started flying day 3.
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I mean, I was mostly joking about a mentor advising Menu to play like this. But really...this system is kind of weird, now that I think about it. Its like how people will often say "You just changed your mind on that...did someone on the scumboard tell you to back down!?" Only with this system, an inconsistency in someone's play could come from their chat with a mentor. Is the person being mentored allowed to state if/when they change their mind about something or decide to behave differently due to advice they were given?
And Chris, no one would want to be mentored by you. lol Your mentees would all be killed night 1 if they were town.
I mean, I was mostly joking about a mentor advising Menu to play like this. But really...this system is kind of weird, now that I think about it. Its like how people will often say "You just changed your mind on that...did someone on the scumboard tell you to back down!?" Only with this system, an inconsistency in someone's play could come from their chat with a mentor. Is the person being mentored allowed to state if/when they change their mind about something or decide to behave differently due to advice they were given?
And Chris, no one would want to be mentored by you. lol Your mentees would all be killed night 1 if they were town.
I don't rightly know, it's never come up for me. I would imagine that stating "My mentor told me to do X" isn't a great way to play though, because you're inviting people to look even more critically at your decision process. Why did you make the original decision? Why did the mentor tell you to reverse it? Is it because he thinks that was scummy? If he's that concerned, is it because you're actually scum? Etc.
But yeah, when it comes to Menu, I'm pretty torn. He's playing aggressively, which would be a sign of town because scum wouldn't want to draw that kind of attention. However, some of the agressive behavior borders more on careless behavior, which would have me think it's not intentional and therefore more of a scum slip.
So I feel that I need to see more before I can make that call, and since he's been providing plenty on his own, that's why I'm of the "wait and see" opinion.
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Plum I am going to vote you right now unless you can give me a solid mock response from BE that comes from a scum mindset for him. Why a scum would, with what 2 votes on him, say "I will not claim" but also at the same time including he wants no other claims as well. Keep in mind for this to be a solid mock that you have to keep in mind he has played 5 games that are finished, and was town in all 5.
Because that possibility has to be in your mind for you to not comment yet. And I want to see if it is there, or if you are BSing me. Please use more than two sentences for the first time this game for your own sake.
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Also, objection: he fake claimed as town in a previous game. Which was mentioned in THIS game. So overruled. Bad mock. Bad post. Scum Plum.
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But yeah, when it comes to Menu, I'm pretty torn. He's playing aggressively, which would be a sign of town because scum wouldn't want to draw that kind of attention. However, some of the agressive behavior borders more on careless behavior, which would have me think it's not intentional and therefore more of a scum slip.
So I feel that I need to see more before I can make that call, and since he's been providing plenty on his own, that's why I'm of the "wait and see" opinion.
To be fair, he only got aggressive AFTER he got attention on him. Not the other way around. But yeah, I'm just waiting to see more from him, really.
Hm, I am changing my vote now. Mostly because the last post by Hunger adds up to a sum 0 in terms of content.
Unvote Wildfire
Vote Hunger
I mean it is okay to not really want to get into votes and all, but his point about Wildfire is the type that bothers me. He gives not insight, but facts. Like "This person did that." Anyone who knew the game could have said that, and his summation was "it happened, and it doesn't mean anything." Just very stand offish. Also despite what he says it does seem like he was trying to change the subject so here's a vote.
I would say 0 content is an exaggeration. I explained why I didn't refute Wizard's vote and instead asked him about his reads and pointed out why that looks suspicious to me. What do you think about the way he entered the thread and voted me and didn't comment on anything else until directly asked to?
You say, "He gives not insight, but facts." Which is objectively false. In fact, the EXACT thing I did was give insight. An observation was made about his style this game and how Wizard didn't like it, so I offered insight and gave my opinion on it from previous experience. My opinion is that it is the way he plays, in every game he has played, and isn't necessarily indicative of alignment, so it's not something that "Anyone who knew the game could have said," like you say.
I already pointed out my intent was not to change the subject, but was to push Wizard for some reads, because it seemed like he was coming into the game late and trying to take an opportunistic shot without getting too involved. He comes in and puts the pressure on me right away and then I get ridiculed for "changing the subject" while he glides by with little content and no reads because the focus is on me if I buy into it.
Wildfire: What do you expect BE to say to justify that? Put yourself in his shoes for a moment. What would be YOUR reason for refusing to claim? And in fact suggesting it for everyone? Think of it as roleplay.
Why did you question Wildfire about this, when both Kaze and Plum essentially asked the same thing before Wildfire?
I understand that you are the type of player who needs more time before they can start coming to conclusions. I can tell from the way certain people here are playing that it is considered good play around here to fake overconfidence and make arguments you don't fully believe in, just to get things moving and pressure people. Perhaps you don't feel comfortable doing this, since you don't like giving opinions until you are sure about them? (Is that an accurate statement?)
What if I asked you to put that aside right now and just give me some gut feelings you've had? Have there been any posts that stood out to you? Any players that you just instinctively trust, or have a gut feeling they might be scum? Even if you're far from being sure about it, just give me something. I promise I won't hold it against you if you turn out to be wrong or if I disagree.
Something about the way this is worded makes me feel really uneasy, but that actually sort of ties in to part of the answer I would give, so I'll oblige anyway.
The way you and Chris word your posts feels extremely structured and calculated to me. It's like you are putting more thought than you need to into every single word, which is typically a scum tell for me. Town make genuine posts, scum try not to slip up. It makes me wary of both of you.
That said, I still have a town read on you at the moment. While your posts are structured, I feel you are at the same time providing content. I still want to reread you though to get a better idea if it's content with the intent of real scumhunting, or content scum would provide to look like town.
For Chris, in light of him saying he is a writer, I am guessing that is just how he posts and takes pride in his command of the language. I'm guessing he gets scum reads from people that don't know him well from this pretty often? So that said, I'm not sure yet that I should be alarmed by how overdone his posts seem. His recent posts about the mentor stuff feel more casual and free-flowing, none of his actual content posts feel like that. I am more in the neutral range on him and will need to reread his posts again with this in mind.
I have already said I think BE is town, and I'm liking Wildfire for town as well.
I was wary of Plum and he hasn't done anything to change that. Like has been said already, he doesn't seem too interested in posting much of substance until pressured, but he still makes the time to pop his head in and post something.
I admittedly haven't been paying Menu close attention, but my gut is that his posts have had the genuineness that I feel yours and Chris' have been lacking, which makes me lean town, but I should probably reread him as well.
I feel Wizard hasn't done anything yet as I pointed out above, which makes me lean scum on him, and on top of that:
I feel like you are giving a very surface-level analysis of the game. Granted, you have only made maybe 2 or 3 posts with content so far, but I already notice this trend of you stating things that are very general. Just a few examples: You justify your vote on Hunger by saying that town are "usually" more paranoid than that. You say BE seems town because, "in general", people who are agressive like that are town. Saying you don't like that Wildfire speaks for others. But these are just general guidelines or opinions that could apply to any game. It doesn't feel like you're actually treating this game as its own entity and trying to read these specific players. It feels more like you have a checklist of things to look out for and are just matching them to various players.
This is exactly what I was getting at above with regards to my feelings for Wizard, and why I asked him for other reads instead of debating his vote on me. He tried to come into the game and make a vote on someone for something that isn't really debatable so as to put pressure on them, but keeps his hands clean of really providing any of his own input.
I mean, I'm torn between whether you're scum or just bumbling town. I'd like to see where you go from here. The vote you put on Plum is a pretty decent start.
Also, it's hardly pressure if you *ask* me to do it.
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I think you are being overlay aggressive to make up for the last couple pages.
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I suppose you don't remember I am much better at finding town then scum
If you want to know, the person who has interested me most so far is Chris. He seems unusually subdued. I wanted to keep seeing what he was going to do
I'm currently hitched to a wagon, and I don't think it's reached its destination quite yet. I'll move my vote when I'm good and ready.
I'm perfectly content to let you prove yourself scum or show that you've got town's interests at heart. Goading me to vote you "if I'm town" is hardly winning you points.
There were a few blunders in your early posts, besides the RVS vote. Namely, I don't like how you've threatened voting/lynching at several players for disagreeing with or questioning you. Most of your reads before the Plum one seemed to be simple backlash to people reacting (IMO, correctly) to you, rather than analysis of behavior independent of your blunders.
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He's trying to goad me into voting him. I don't really see how putting my vote on him in that situation is going to actually apply any pressure to him.
He's active. He's posting. He's saying some questionable things as he does.
So yeah, I'm going to watch him, closely, and see where he is going. If his behavior were to change, then I think we'd be in a situation where my vote would be both warranted and helpful. Right now it's some of the first but little of the second.
Anyhow, I had a followup for plum:
It seems like I'm the only person you've given a concrete read on thus far.
What are your thoughts on Burning Earth?
How about Dels?
Anybody else you'd like to call out?
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I don't like this response. It's very deflective. "I'm not going to argue with your vote HEY LOOK OVER THERE WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THOSE GUYS INSTEAD?!"
But I'll answer your question, sure.
BE seems like a very aggressive guy, and is doing far more than he would need too if he was scum. I don't know him of course, but in general people who post without fear or caring about they look tend to be town, in my experience.
Dels seems to be earnestly trying to find scum, he feels pretty towny, too.
Wildfire seems to have an unfortunate habit of speaking for others, I don't really like that. I prefer when people fight their own battles.
Is the deadline really in May? That's killing a lot of my drive, sorry guys
Dels is very good. I can't say anything about him yet.
Hmmm. Other then blade who needs to be pmed on gamefaqs and I should probably message the host with it, I don't think anyone needs to be called out yet. By me at least. I work best through reactions and information, and it's hard to force both of those things.
Well, not true, but if you flipped out over self meta then you would certainly flip out over forcing interaction. Nobody really does it like I do. I'll resort to that if needed
You have the power
This is something I've *always* had a problem with. I've even gotten a lot better about it recently - you should see my first games.
Some posts in particular I'm referring to here:
Here you attack Dels and threaten to vote him because he attacked your RVS vote. Note that I did the same thing (to which you had no response), and Chris did something very similar (and you town-cleared him)
Also, while on BE
Again, you're threatening a lynch just because he's doing things differently than you are. Not just a vote (which is already on him), but you're somehow going to manifest six additional votes and make this a lynch.
You are correct that your vote on him was not related to his interaction with you, but it definitely seemed prompted more as an immediate response to what he'd just posted than as an analysis of his total posting history in this thread.
Then, with barely any additional interaction with him, you decide he's definitely town and you're off on plum now.
And when I start criticizing you, you say you've got a scumread on me.
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basically, yeah
I will refuse to claim at L-2 and I suggest you all do so.
I agree with you on both BE and Dels so far, though I need to reread the Dels/Wildfire interactions and didn't have time today.
Wildfire definitely does have that habit. Last game I played with him I think he was told to stop answering for others at least a half dozen times. I was pretty sure he was scum for the first half of the game until I realized that even new scum wouldn't be dumb enough to keep spouting off like that when they have been repeatedly told not to and that he was probably town (he was). I don't think that should town clear him this game, but rather I don't think it's indicative of alignment for him.
What?
Why?
Unvote Wildfire
Vote Hunger
I mean it is okay to not really want to get into votes and all, but his point about Wildfire is the type that bothers me. He gives not insight, but facts. Like "This person did that." Anyone who knew the game could have said that, and his summation was "it happened, and it doesn't mean anything." Just very stand offish. Also despite what he says it does seem like he was trying to change the subject so here's a vote.
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Everything seems to be taken to the extreme with you. That is the overall point I've been trying to make. You're not just defensive, you're defensive with the threat of OMGUS voting. You're not just pressuring with your vote, you're threatening a lynch when a player doesn't react the way you want them to (regardless of whether or not that makes them scum).
I seek reactions and answers in my own way. Sometimes, that involves me voting (see Dels). It does not always have to. You've given me more in our back and forth than I would expect to get from a vote on you.
You want to justify this one?
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Refusing to claim myself would likely be because I had a power that would become worthless if I claimed it, like Bulletproof, Paranoid Gun Owner, Ascetic, etc.
Telling others to refuse to claim.... I can't see a good reason for. Do you want dead PRs? Because that's how you get dead PRs.
I mean, I guess he could make the argument that he thinks the scum have expertly-crafted falseclaims and that this will result in the saving of scum who claim. I could also just see scum motivation in hopes that we lynch our PRs without giving them a chance to clear themselves.
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The sole reason I am stepping in on his behalf is I have a genuine belief he is town, and I also have a genuine belief that I am one of the most patient people I have ever seen when it comes to people playing this game badly. I think he is an accident waiting to happen if he continues on.
Although, I will say this: we don't get dead PRs if town suspects the right people. Perhaps a distant dream, but I like to think that even with BE's policy we could do something right. Not so confident, Wildfire?
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I haven't played that many games, but I've yet to see a day one where a PR doesn't get brought to claimrange.
Between BE's "don't claim", and Master Plum's urge to give us a short deadline plus his accusation that, as a new player, I *can't* have determined someone is scum this quickly all seems to add up to a situation I'm not liking much: Pick a wagon without the time necessary to truly determine if they're scum, and ride it to completion as quickly as possible with no claim.
It just sounds like a recipe for disaster.
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I can't believe Plum said that about new players, I think I said so at the time.
So what is your opinion on my vote of Hunger? You and Menu look like you could use a break from one another.
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That said, his play so far has been pretty similar to that game. He pops in early with nuggets of insight and votes where he has them, but he's not a constant stream of content.
So my conclusion is that I don't personally think he's scum, but I don't think that you are blatantly wrong in thinking he is. Objectively, it seems like a fine vote.
My one qualm about the vote is the fact that you have unvoted me in the process, despite having taken issue with several things I've said since placing your vote on me including recently. Has your read on me changed? Or do you just think Hunger is scummier?
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I simply meant that I can understand where your vote is coming from. If I did not have former experience with Hunger I would likely be more suspicious of him.
Good answer.
I might have missed this, but what is your read on Plum?
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Plum:
He does something this game, at times, that bothers me. He gives short responses but still manages to sneak in extra words. I used to do that when I didn't know what to say and my essays were word counted. He'll add verbal ticks like "hmm", modifiers like "quite", and he doesn't end up saying much in any one of his posts. Lots of one word answers. In a single he tells Leo that "you" have the power to decide deadline. Feels like a scum who knows Leo is town. If Plum is scum, I would use that post to defend Leo. I don't think someone with as much experience as scum as Plum gets so personal with a scumbuddy. Feels almost buddying. It's a small thing.
Speaking of that I thought Kaze had a stronger case to vote Plum when he voted Dels some pages back. I feel like noting that.
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Why do you jump from me saying I can't defend myself against your vote because you didn't make the reasons clear, to saying I am upset I don't have a soapbox. Have you already reached the point where you believe I'm scum so strongly that everything I say seems to harbor a hidden meaning?
You say scum are more likely to be self-aware, but this is clearly not true. I mean, you already listed three players who were self-aware. Myself, Plum, and Chris. Hunger just made a post talking about his own playstyle too, so add him in. Obviously, all four aren't scum. So townies are clearly capable of being self-aware too. You may feel that being self-aware is scummy, but there is no standard definition of what is and isn't scummy. It all depends on the player, don't you agree?
Anyway, I continue to dislike your posting style. You quote people's posts and then briefly comment on certain parts of them. Its like that big catch-up post, but in mini format. You're posting lots of little comments, but nothing really stands out and I can't quite tell which parts are things you really care about and are trying to make a point about, versus which are just observations.
@B_E
Why do you feel the need to state the players you believe are town, when you already declared the three-man scum team with complete certainty?
@Wildfire:
I think we got off on the wrong foot and ended up arguing about some things that we probably shouldn't have. I'm actually feeling a lot better about you now, and I propose that we should be allies! Do you accept?
@Hunger:
I understand that you are the type of player who needs more time before they can start coming to conclusions. I can tell from the way certain people here are playing that it is considered good play around here to fake overconfidence and make arguments you don't fully believe in, just to get things moving and pressure people. Perhaps you don't feel comfortable doing this, since you don't like giving opinions until you are sure about them? (Is that an accurate statement?) What if I asked you to put that aside right now and just give me some gut feelings you've had? Have there been any posts that stood out to you? Any players that you just instinctively trust, or have a gut feeling they might be scum? Even if you're far from being sure about it, just give me something. I promise I won't hold it against you if you turn out to be wrong or if I disagree.
@RobotWizard:
I feel like you are giving a very surface-level analysis of the game. Granted, you have only made maybe 2 or 3 posts with content so far, but I already notice this trend of you stating things that are very general. Just a few examples: You justify your vote on Hunger by saying that town are "usually" more paranoid than that. You say BE seems town because, "in general", people who are agressive like that are town. Saying you don't like that Wildfire speaks for others. But these are just general guidelines or opinions that could apply to any game. It doesn't feel like you're actually treating this game as its own entity and trying to read these specific players. It feels more like you have a checklist of things to look out for and are just matching them to various players.
@Chris:
Your post about "Who are the votes on B_E?" stood out to me. There were only two votes on him...and you cleared Menu right away, so really, you were only talking about Selesnya. I am having trouble putting this into words (been typing this paragraph for like 3 minutes lol) but it just seems, well, odd, to say "People who voted B_E look bad" before mentioning that Selesnya is the main person you are talking about. Not just that, but does that mean you didn't actually go back and read Selesnya's vote? You didn't mention anything about the way in which Selesnya voted, and I don't think you have after this post either. Can you clarify for me why you worded this post the way you did? And what are your thoughts about Selesnya and his vote specifically?
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Right now, my gut's telling me that something's off about Kaze. I'll have to re-read him when I get the chance so I can put it into words, but Dels' observation of his posting style is spot-on. Vote Kazekirimaru.
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Basically just a more-experienced player that we have a personal chat forum with, to bounce ideas off of and get advice from.
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Yeah, I'm trying to wrap my head around that one too. The mentor chat thing is kind of what you make of it. Last time I had one, I didn't consult him much at all until some complex claim situations started flying day 3.
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And Chris, no one would want to be mentored by you. lol Your mentees would all be killed night 1 if they were town.
I don't rightly know, it's never come up for me. I would imagine that stating "My mentor told me to do X" isn't a great way to play though, because you're inviting people to look even more critically at your decision process. Why did you make the original decision? Why did the mentor tell you to reverse it? Is it because he thinks that was scummy? If he's that concerned, is it because you're actually scum? Etc.
But yeah, when it comes to Menu, I'm pretty torn. He's playing aggressively, which would be a sign of town because scum wouldn't want to draw that kind of attention. However, some of the agressive behavior borders more on careless behavior, which would have me think it's not intentional and therefore more of a scum slip.
So I feel that I need to see more before I can make that call, and since he's been providing plenty on his own, that's why I'm of the "wait and see" opinion.
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I seem to recall something like that happening. Or am I confusing that with the time he was masons with mzero.
I'm still waiting for BE to show back up before I comment on him. I want to see his reasoning
Because that possibility has to be in your mind for you to not comment yet. And I want to see if it is there, or if you are BSing me. Please use more than two sentences for the first time this game for your own sake.
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But once again, I want to hear him comment before I comment on how I feel about it.
Why are you holding back?
Unvote: Hunger
Vote: Plum
I want to hear these comments now.
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2015 - Best Overall Player
To be fair, he only got aggressive AFTER he got attention on him. Not the other way around. But yeah, I'm just waiting to see more from him, really.
You say, "He gives not insight, but facts." Which is objectively false. In fact, the EXACT thing I did was give insight. An observation was made about his style this game and how Wizard didn't like it, so I offered insight and gave my opinion on it from previous experience. My opinion is that it is the way he plays, in every game he has played, and isn't necessarily indicative of alignment, so it's not something that "Anyone who knew the game could have said," like you say.
I already pointed out my intent was not to change the subject, but was to push Wizard for some reads, because it seemed like he was coming into the game late and trying to take an opportunistic shot without getting too involved. He comes in and puts the pressure on me right away and then I get ridiculed for "changing the subject" while he glides by with little content and no reads because the focus is on me if I buy into it.
Why did you question Wildfire about this, when both Kaze and Plum essentially asked the same thing before Wildfire?
Sure, that's pretty accurate for the most part.
Something about the way this is worded makes me feel really uneasy, but that actually sort of ties in to part of the answer I would give, so I'll oblige anyway.
The way you and Chris word your posts feels extremely structured and calculated to me. It's like you are putting more thought than you need to into every single word, which is typically a scum tell for me. Town make genuine posts, scum try not to slip up. It makes me wary of both of you.
That said, I still have a town read on you at the moment. While your posts are structured, I feel you are at the same time providing content. I still want to reread you though to get a better idea if it's content with the intent of real scumhunting, or content scum would provide to look like town.
For Chris, in light of him saying he is a writer, I am guessing that is just how he posts and takes pride in his command of the language. I'm guessing he gets scum reads from people that don't know him well from this pretty often? So that said, I'm not sure yet that I should be alarmed by how overdone his posts seem. His recent posts about the mentor stuff feel more casual and free-flowing, none of his actual content posts feel like that. I am more in the neutral range on him and will need to reread his posts again with this in mind.
I have already said I think BE is town, and I'm liking Wildfire for town as well.
I was wary of Plum and he hasn't done anything to change that. Like has been said already, he doesn't seem too interested in posting much of substance until pressured, but he still makes the time to pop his head in and post something.
I admittedly haven't been paying Menu close attention, but my gut is that his posts have had the genuineness that I feel yours and Chris' have been lacking, which makes me lean town, but I should probably reread him as well.
I feel Wizard hasn't done anything yet as I pointed out above, which makes me lean scum on him, and on top of that:
This is exactly what I was getting at above with regards to my feelings for Wizard, and why I asked him for other reads instead of debating his vote on me. He tried to come into the game and make a vote on someone for something that isn't really debatable so as to put pressure on them, but keeps his hands clean of really providing any of his own input.