Okay, so the slapfight in industry starts on the bottom of page seven, post 171. It begins with Arn thinking Karn is scummy and voting him, and devolves quickly into a back and forth between them, continuing for a few pages. Of note, Arn says that rapid responses would indicate that Karn is town. On page ten, Karn indicates that Arn is one of his top scum suspects. Interestingly, after this point, Arn does not interact too much with Karn. Throughout, Arn does nothing to undermine Karn's reads or his ability to read.
The fight here between Arn and Generic plays out very differently. For starters, Arn was a lot more cautious with his vote initially (besides his RVS vote on Reaching), only placing it on Daegan after repeated goading from Reaching. He also maintains that Reaching is town throughout, and simply finds ways to call his scum read into question. The fight has also been drawn out longer, over more pages and days. The fight in Industry was a flash fight, and can, as Arn references, be chalked up to jitters as town. The fight here has been a long and nasty thing, and reads a lot more like Scum trying to cover their mistakes than anything else.
Repeatedly, he brings up very wordy defenses of himself rather than any actual scumhunting.
Repeatedly, he volunteers games for people to check his meta, showing an immense degree of self-consciousness.
As I pointed out in #111, his post stating "If you need to see my flip for me to finally convince you I'm town so be it. I just hope the rest of the town doesn't hold it against you that you tunneled me so hard for horrible reasons and lead to a mislynch." reads like he knows Generic is town. His defense of this doesn't really help either.
I'm not going to vote Arn at the moment because he's L-2 and unclaimed, but I am more than willing to post claim, barring a game-changer reveal.
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EBODP: And of course I miss his claim post.
Un-CC'd cop, guess it's time to look elsewhere. Sigh, of course this happens right when I get a chance to put in this full read on him.
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I agree with a Kosa push. He's was one of my top reads before Arn, and continues to be so post Arn. He's posted very little so far, but has had several posts where he KNOWS peoples' alignments, and he's also cited Seppel's rules, showing a high amount of scum self-awareness (his post about Bigtraine not joining Arn's wagon can also be applied to him, having never given a good reason why Arn wasn't scum besides that he knows). He's said weekends are a no-go for Mafia posting, but we're on Wednesday now and he still has not really checked in since, seeming instead content to just coast through the day.
Vote KosaKosa
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I am re-reading the thread and what is jumping out to me is how bad Nat/HookerPunch's posts are. These posts read like they came from someone that is not trying to scumhunt or help town. The posts, at best, are fluff; at worst they are a distraction.
I've had a good track record at reading Generic lately, and I think he's mostly town at the moment... I do believe Arnarnia is being genuine in their posts there(even if I haven't really read them). Yes, I know I'm being as non-commital as possible here.
...When I said alignment-indicative, I more meant that the conversation was indicative of their alignment in some fashion, but yes, I'm leaning T-T based off some of the arguments presented by others right now...
What the heck do you mean the conversation is indicative of their alignment? Isn't that ALL conversations on mafia? Feels like a weird, random comment to make, and the explanation for it leaves me wanting.
Nah, I'm just playing a low-info game here. My activity and input should become more accurate as the player list decreases. Maybe.
I wannna wagon Void.
So your reasoning for wanting to wagon Void is...?
I can only buy into the tone argument so much, and not adding content because you are playing a 'low-info' game is a copout. I have a hard time seeing town motivation for making the posts that you have. I could see scum motivation in them.
Obviously lynch on Arnnaria won't happen, but I'm concerned how quickly you changed your votes. Especially Wildfire:
When it comes to Arnnaria: "Yeah, I'm going to vote, but I have to be careful, I need to reread him etc."
When it comes to KosaKosa: "Perfect choice: *vote!*"
Wtf?
A combination of the now-impending deadline and the fact that I've now had the chance to re-read the entire thread (plus removing someone from my PoE) makes me a lot more confident at this point.
Pre re-read, I had Arn, Kosa, and HookerPunch all as decent Scumreads (maybe a 6.5-7 on a scale of 1-10, with 10 being totally scum). Post re-read, my certainty in both of those reads went up (as well as that on HP, though to a slightly lower degree).
The fact that Reaching, one of the prime movers, also has him as a top suspect also helps. Rather than shoot my vote off on a wasted wagon with deadline pending.
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I plan on doing a wagon analysis from my point of view of my wagon tomorrow morning or afternoon. Hopefully I can find something interesting from this mess.
1. If you are throwing random things into the thread that don't help the town try to find scum, that hurts the town. It's time and effort spent chasing whatever distractions you put out there. Especially now that there is a deadline, but even before that it doesn't help. So I have to wonder, if you are doing things that you know won't help the town out, how could that come from a town perspective?
2. As Wildfire mentioned, you can't just not post at all, so you need to post something to look like you are engaged in the game and hunting scum, but you are really just coasting along. It gives you a presence, but nothing with substance that could be controversial.
Liking hookerpunch as scumspect
@wildfire: please let people who've had questions directed at them respond to the question before you give your opinion.
I like DC's response to my post re: his bigtraine read. I also like bigtraine re: hookerpunch. Please excuse any poor spelling/spacing, New forums are garbage on mobile.
TL; DR: I still don't like hookerpunch, DC seems cool guy.
I don't love that claim. Item Cop feels similar to Role Cop which is more normally a scum role and the 2-shot cop would out an investigative role as a CC or, if not, could be faked by scum.
Also - Arn says he'd like to see a T/S list from Kosa, where the momentum of the game seems to be headed, but his primary concern with Dagaen which he hasn't seemed to change, was for shifting focus back on Kosa earlier in the game.
Wildfire was scum when he apologized to me a couple times when I feigned butthurt over a minor aggressive flame he made early Day Three. The game is confusing as alignments switched daily, but Wildfire got more aggressive and annotantive on Day Three.
I just saw Dagaen as a little kid poking us with a stick, "Hey guys, look at Kosa.". The big kids don't respond because there's really no merit to it. "Hey guys, look at Kosa.". The big kids continue to smoke their cigarettes. It just struck me as scummy that he doesnt elaborate anything further than asking others to go further.
And the hypocrisy was that Dagaen extended the random BS with posing me a stupid question but attacks Kosa for random BS.
Here he says Dagaen's focus on Kosa had no merit to it, also scum suspicion of Wildfire here.
Dagaen - opinions expressed
Wildfire - I just don't like the early aggression and apologetic tone. He seems to have been skimming the surface after that and that reads suspicious to me.
Lean Scum
Bigtraine - Won't commit to my wagon.
HookerPunch - Confrontational. I also don't like the "bluff" comment.
Neutral (Not enough info)
Vishamon
Shockwave07
Void
Lean Town
Kosakosa - Kosa makes sense to me and not just because he's defending me.
Town
ReachingNerd - opinions expressed
DCIII - Scumhunting, asking good questions
Dkingsland967 - Scumhunting, askign good questions
Arnnaria
T/S list - leanTown on Kosa, scum reads on Dagaen and Wildfire.
Then after his claim and the wagon starts to dissipate and one of his top two scum reads (Wildfire) votes for Kosa, he goes with the momentum and requests a T/S list from Kosa. Previously had expressed suspicion of Dagaen for shifting focus to Kosa, had twice said he was Town reading Kosa, had no suspicion over Wildfire's focus being on Kosa, and expressed no souring toward Kosa in between these happenings.
Really feels like he's latching onto the first opportunity to take momentum away from himself. I get the mechanical reasons to unvote him without a CC, but behaviorally it really doesn't jive for me.
Kosa feels like Xymande Kosa where he was neutral but did have something to hide. He gave reads confidently with little to back them up and then power lurked like he's doing here. I also agree with the point that he was inconsistent with his Arn vs. BigTraine stance. I think that it's a good wagon and it actually made me feel a little better about Wildfire because he had previously expressed concern around Kosa and then followed it up. I agreed with his reasoning for his vote, as well.
The change in approach from Arn around him gives me some pause, though. I want to see Kosa's reaction to the shift in focus to him.
Void's opening posts and his push on Wildfire feels like Town Void. Scum Void typically doesn't have as much direction with a push early and is more diplomatic while trying to find his footing.
I still have an outstanding question to him about his RVS post re:Killjoy as it looks like he was explaining his RVS post to Wildfire by saying that he and Killjoy are friends outside of the boards... which makes no sense because his RVS post was on me and I don't know Void outside of the boards. So I want to see his response there.
Liking hookerpunch as scumspect
@wildfire: please let people who've had questions directed at them respond to the question before you give your opinion.
I like DC's response to my post re: his bigtraine read. I also like bigtraine re: hookerpunch. Please excuse any poor spelling/spacing, New forums are garbage on mobile.
TL; DR: I still don't like hookerpunch, DC seems cool guy.
>_< and here I said I wouldn't do that this game.
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I don't love that claim. Item Cop feels similar to Role Cop which is more normally a scum role and the 2-shot cop would out an investigative role as a CC or, if not, could be faked by scum.
If he was primarily/only an item cop, I'd agree, as that's definitely a scum role. But he's also got the alignment cop, which is definitely town. Sure, he could be hoping to fake it, but then why mention the item cop thing at all? He could just have claimed alignment cop and then used his knowledge of the teams to fake that.
Combine that with the fact that no one has counterclaimed and I'm thinking he's off the table, despite his poor play.
As for why he's only two-shot alignment, that's likely so this doesn't just become a game of "follow the cop".
Also - Arn says he'd like to see a T/S list from Kosa, where the momentum of the game seems to be headed, but his primary concern with Dagaen which he hasn't seemed to change, was for shifting focus back on Kosa earlier in the game.
Wildfire was scum when he apologized to me a couple times when I feigned butthurt over a minor aggressive flame he made early Day Three. The game is confusing as alignments switched daily, but Wildfire got more aggressive and annotantive on Day Three.
I just saw Dagaen as a little kid poking us with a stick, "Hey guys, look at Kosa.". The big kids don't respond because there's really no merit to it. "Hey guys, look at Kosa.". The big kids continue to smoke their cigarettes. It just struck me as scummy that he doesnt elaborate anything further than asking others to go further.
And the hypocrisy was that Dagaen extended the random BS with posing me a stupid question but attacks Kosa for random BS.
Here he says Dagaen's focus on Kosa had no merit to it, also scum suspicion of Wildfire here.
Dagaen - opinions expressed
Wildfire - I just don't like the early aggression and apologetic tone. He seems to have been skimming the surface after that and that reads suspicious to me.
Lean Scum
Bigtraine - Won't commit to my wagon.
HookerPunch - Confrontational. I also don't like the "bluff" comment.
Neutral (Not enough info)
Vishamon
Shockwave07
Void
Lean Town
Kosakosa - Kosa makes sense to me and not just because he's defending me.
Town
ReachingNerd - opinions expressed
DCIII - Scumhunting, asking good questions
Dkingsland967 - Scumhunting, askign good questions
Arnnaria
T/S list - leanTown on Kosa, scum reads on Dagaen and Wildfire.
Then after his claim and the wagon starts to dissipate and one of his top two scum reads (Wildfire) votes for Kosa, he goes with the momentum and requests a T/S list from Kosa. Previously had expressed suspicion of Dagaen for shifting focus to Kosa, had twice said he was Town reading Kosa, had no suspicion over Wildfire's focus being on Kosa, and expressed no souring toward Kosa in between these happenings.
Really feels like he's latching onto the first opportunity to take momentum away from himself. I get the mechanical reasons to unvote him without a CC, but behaviorally it really doesn't jive for me.
This is a more convincing argument, but because of the above I still don't think that makes him scum.
Even still, it's raised my curiosity.
@Arnnaria: Why is it that, post your claim, you haven't tried to push me, or continued your push on Daegan? Given that we all pretty soundly believe you're town, you could pretty easily be spearheading your own push, rather than just following Reaching's lead.
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Generic, I'm curious as to why you believe HP is probably town. As of now, he is where I want to place my vote, but since you're familiar with him I'm willing to hear out your reasoning first.
Kosa feels like Xymande Kosa where he was neutral but did have something to hide. He gave reads confidently with little to back them up and then power lurked like he's doing here. I also agree with the point that he was inconsistent with his Arn vs. BigTraine stance. I think that it's a good wagon and it actually made me feel a little better about Wildfire because he had previously expressed concern around Kosa and then followed it up. I agreed with his reasoning for his vote, as well.
Kosa also never responded to several people who commented on this.
The thing that gives me pause is that his quick hit-and-run attack on Bigtraine looked very suspiciously like scum trying to shift focus off a buddy, but without a scum!Arn flip that link falls apart.
What if there was already scum on Arn's wagon and Kosa didn't want to be on the same wagon?
There weren't any other hot leads, so if he didn't want to be on the Arn wagon, he needed to come up with something else.
I thought Kosa's points on Bigtraine were actually pretty decent in and of themselves. It was the way he ignored similar behavior from Arn and then completely went AWOL when the attack failed to gain traction that looked suspcious to me, and I had him on the back burner as prime suspect #1 if we lynched Arn and he flipped scum.
@Rhanderic - because of how Arn had been Town reading him and then changed his approach entirely without any other context as soon as the pressure started to come off of him. It feels like a release valve. He had been saying Wildfire and Dagaen were his top scum reads and Wildfire voted Kosa quickly and yet he didn't acknowledge that. It feels off and I want to hear more from both him and Kosa.
Re: Void - WWII and TWD are good examples of how he danced around at the beginning of the game and was apologetic and polite with other players before eventually taking a stance somewhere. Scum in both games.
Futurama, and Xymande are good examples of how he was much more overt and had more direction out of the gate like he did with Wildfire here.
Me and Rhand brought his up yesterday. We won't let a scumteam up against us pull the same stunt we achieved
In town's defense, he looked a lot like a Role Cop, and a weak one at that. Had we known that the scum team actually did have false role claims, we probably wouldn't have lynched him.
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Hey guys I just got back from the doctor. I must've overdid it this weekend and my bronchitis came back stronger. I'm not going to V/LA because there's nothing I need to get better for but the doctor recommended I stay in bed for a couple of days so I'm primarily posting from an iPad. Which means I won't be able to do the wagon analysis anytime soon.
@Wildfire: because I've played this game long enough to know when something isn't going anywhere it's better to look elsewhere. I still don't like Dagaen, but I have no traction there. Maybe when I have time for a reread.
I'm mixed on you. You sure put together that information awful fast after Bigtraine voted for me. Simultaneously, a deadline was announced so the point is null. Plus your analysis was more detailed than I expected as if you actually reread instead of just looking for bullet points to hang me by.
And the T/S list by Kosa: if the argument is that he's scum because he was so certain (read: inside information) that im town, then let's get his thoughts on paper before you guys put on the thumbscrews.
@Wildfire: because I've played this game long enough to know when something isn't going anywhere it's better to look elsewhere. I still don't like Dagaen, but I have no traction there. Maybe when I have time for a reread.
I'm mixed on you. You sure put together that information awful fast after Bigtraine voted for me. Simultaneously, a deadline was announced so the point is null. Plus your analysis was more detailed than I expected as if you actually reread instead of just looking for bullet points to hang me by.
And the T/S list by Kosa: if the argument is that he's scum because he was so certain (read: inside information) that im town, then let's get his thoughts on paper before you guys put on the thumbscrews.
I was actually in the process of my re-read when he posted his vote. I read a considerable chunk of Industry as well as all of this game. The total timing on it just ended up being really bad. Stupid IRL responsibilities.
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Those are your words, not mine. Others have called you confrontational in this thread. I am accusing you of (semi) active lurking and not having a desire to help the town team out.
Those are your words, not mine. Others have called you confrontational in this thread. I am accusing you of (semi) active lurking and not having a desire to help the town team out.
Second this.
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But from a meta stand point I'm aware this is more likely a town nat... Explaining that to the rest of the game is the problem.
@Generic: I did read your meta analysis before voting for Nat. You had one completed scum game to look at to get Nat's scum meta, right? How confidant are you in that meta read based off of one scum game?
I typed this all out on my notepad on my iPad. It's not as in depth as I wanted but it's the best I can do for now.
#5-9: Aggression and non committal with Dagaen.
#26, RN: Wagon officially begins. RN switches RVS vote to real vote. Cites lack of aggression as reason for push.
#29-??: Slapfight begins. The following people stay out of it: Dagaen (31), Bigtraine (46), Hookerpunch (50), Void (53). Slapfight seems to end around 56 with my Unvote.
#71, Arn: I vote Dagaen.
#77, Dkings: Hates the vote. Says Generic is onto something. Asks Dagaen a question about RQS. Dagaen answers in 89.
#81, DCIII: barns Dkings and votes me. Doesn't really add any new content to my wagon except a questioning of Dagaen's RQS.
#82-??: Slapfight 2.0 begins. The following people stay out of it: Dagaen (89).
#110, Arn: I bite back and set my foot down on RN.
#115: Void expresses displeasure with wagon.
#117, Dagaen: Waffles. I look defensive, but so would anyone. Dagaen and I go back and forth until around 140 let's say. I wouldn't call this another Slpfight because Dagaen simply keeps repeating the same questions and points over and over again as if he's looking for a chink in the armor. This could either be an "aha, you've scumslipped" or he has nothing to go off of. I believe it's the latter. Dagaen puts his vote on me in 140. I'm at L-4.
#134, Kosa: we're both certainly town, stop wasting time with each other. But I've never once expressed any doubts RN was town. In fact, throughout the slapfights ice been pretty adamant they prove RN is town. Is Kosa even reading or using inside information to appear as a mediator?
#150, Hookerpunch. Believes me by his gut.
#178, Vishamon chimes in for the first time on the wagon, but with a question directed toward Dagaen's views on me instead of directly addressing it.
#206: Wildfire expresses doubts about me for the first time. Right after I post my town / scum list. Wherein I list him as leaning scum. I'm still at L-4. Looking back, I still think Wildfire doesn't want to get his hands dirty.
#232: between 206 and this post Wildfire gets attacked for his fence sitting. Eventually Wildfire offers up analysis. Is he appeasing his detractors?
#248: Cythare sets the deadline. Backs to the walls.
#250: Bigtraine votes.
#251: I claim.
I still like wildfire and Dagaen as scum. I still wanna see a town/scum list from Kosa.
That now out of the way, why isn't kosa at L-1 yet? What are you guys waitng for, cos about 6 days ago it feels like he promised content.
I'm more likely to get a role claim out of lngrrrr than I am hearing from kosa (little joke there for wildfire and dking).
~ Gen.
Just noticed this gem. The utter lack of content from kosa feels to me like a disinterested player, either because they don't feel invested in the game, or because they are more interested in their role because of night phase actions.
I'm interested to hear why you (Gen) read Kosa as scum, but Hookerpunch as VT. I understand what you're speculating about Hookerpunch's mindset, having felt and played that way before with a vanilla town role, but I'm not sure how you get that read on HP but not Kosa (I guess this is like Kosa's Bigtraine vs arn faux-pas earlier). Is it just a meta read?
@Rhanderic - because I was thinking along the same lines of Wildfire in #285. If Arn just made a claim that backed most people off, why wouldn't he pursue one of his previously established reads rather than following you (and one of his scum reads, Wildfire) right onto Kosa, who he previously hadn't taken issue with? If they are scumbuddies together, that wouldn't seem like a logical move as there were other directions that he could have gone and the Kosa wagon was only two players deep.
I thought of a reason he might, though. If he was worried there might be a CC eventually coming, he might be distancing.
Arn is still my top suspect which I'll say more about below, though.
I know he's unCCed, but not everyone has checked in since his claim. There also may not be someone to CC him and he could still be faking.
If no CC comes out, I don't mind waiting to see what happens with regard to Night actions; but I know that I'm going to have a hard time trusting him down the road.
Look at his wagon analysis: He calls out Kosa for #134, a point that others have referenced, but then in #173 Arn expresses favorable views of Kosa after that point had already been made. He was pressuring Dagaen about shifting the conversation back to Kosa and kept both his scum read on Dagaen and his Town lean on Kosa through his initial T/S list. It's like this read on Kosa just materialized when it was convenient and as other people started discussing it/his wagon was disbanding.
Look at his analysis of me in his reference to #81 - he says I barn DK and add no new content to the case except for questioning the RQS. That's very different than in his T/S list when he said that I was scumhunting and asking good questions.
Throughout the game his play has mirrored what it appears that he thinks others would want/expect him to do; from his initial vote on Dagaen, to seemingly forcing his read to stay on Dagaen, to his mindset around certain players after his claim changing regarding their previous actions.
Even the wagon analysis he looked like he was going to delay and then when discussion started to shift back to him, he jumped on it.
I don't like it. I was reading recently that mafia is about eliminating distractions and focusing on behavior and his behavior seems very scummy to me.
Firstly your opinion of arns claim. Secondly your top suspects, and then finally who you have a town feeling for (besides us of course )
Alright, working down this list, bare with me a little.
I have three roleclaims at the moment(yes three deal w/it and/or learn to read crumbs) and the game is starting to fall into place a little.
I don't know if anyone else is aware atm, but there are items in this game. To be specific, my role mentions the EMP bomb in particular. I know in the opening flavor it's mentioned, but my role specifically mentions it has in-game implications. My suspicions are that the EMP-bomb is a sort of simultaneous frame/roleblock sort of thing, but I don't have anything to work off right now. In that sense, item cop makes sense. I'm a bit skeptical about alignment cop, but I find it not-unlikely, I guess. Also >lynching cops day one when not obvscum(and the people saying Arn is obvscum are, seriously, just wrong--give me a little credit). On the whole, I am completely willing to believe this claim. In any case, it is entirely possible the scum solve that equation for us tonight so let's leave him be.
My top suspects are, well, I guess I'd have to read the game for that. Hmm. I mentioned Kosa before, and I wholeheartedly agree with that wagon. I'm only hesitating voting now because I don't want a *****ty spot on the wagon(yeah sue me I worry about my towniness as town). Beyond that, I'm feeling good about Bigtraine just via association I guess. Willing to believe Wildfire scum, Shockwave town. I had a reason to think these two were linked, but I lost that train of thought. DCIII I dunno, waiting for Arn's eventual flip. Daegan's interesting, he puts lots of pressure but not really? Lurkers gon' lurk, although iirc, this is out of character for void?
Firstly your opinion of arns claim. Secondly your top suspects, and then finally who you have a town feeling for (besides us of course )
Alright, working down this list, bare with me a little.
I have three roleclaims at the moment(yes three deal w/it and/or learn to read crumbs) and the game is starting to fall into place a little.
I don't know if anyone else is aware atm, but there are items in this game. To be specific, my role mentions the EMP bomb in particular. I know in the opening flavor it's mentioned, but my role specifically mentions it has in-game implications. My suspicions are that the EMP-bomb is a sort of simultaneous frame/roleblock sort of thing, but I don't have anything to work off right now. In that sense, item cop makes sense. I'm a bit skeptical about alignment cop, but I find it not-unlikely, I guess. Also >lynching cops day one when not obvscum(and the people saying Arn is obvscum are, seriously, just wrong--give me a little credit). On the whole, I am completely willing to believe this claim. In any case, it is entirely possible the scum solve that equation for us tonight so let's leave him be.
My top suspects are, well, I guess I'd have to read the game for that. Hmm. I mentioned Kosa before, and I wholeheartedly agree with that wagon. I'm only hesitating voting now because I don't want a *****ty spot on the wagon(yeah sue me I worry about my towniness as town). Beyond that, I'm feeling good about Bigtraine just via association I guess. Willing to believe Wildfire scum, Shockwave town. I had a reason to think these two were linked, but I lost that train of thought. DCIII I dunno, waiting for Arn's eventual flip. Daegan's interesting, he puts lots of pressure but not really? Lurkers gon' lurk, although iirc, this is out of character for void?
My flavor also mentions the EMP Bomb, but from context I had assumed it was just flavor. It talks about the team trying to "retrieve" the EMP device, which I took to mean that this is the mission we're on and the objective we'll accomplish if town is successful.
Oh, hm... The first post implies that the EMP Bomb has already been retrieved, and we're escorting it back to a safe location. That's a bit contrary to how my PM read. It is possible that somebody has it as an "item" that they can activate as a power. That would definitely lend credence to the "Item Cop" claim being more than just a Flavor Cop.
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I don't know if anyone else is aware atm, but there are items in this game. To be specific, my role mentions the EMP bomb in particular. I know in the opening flavor it's mentioned, but my role specifically mentions it has in-game implications. My suspicions are that the EMP-bomb is a sort of simultaneous frame/roleblock sort of thing, but I don't have anything to work off right now. In that sense, item cop makes sense. I'm a bit skeptical about alignment cop, but I find it not-unlikely, I guess. Also >lynching cops day one when not obvscum(and the people saying Arn is obvscum are, seriously, just wrong--give me a little credit). On the whole, I am completely willing to believe this claim. In any case, it is entirely possible the scum solve that equation for us tonight so let's leave him be.
Something about this entire paragraph reads off. This is a lot of fear-mongering about the storyline of the game. Also, someone speculating about a frame item/ability with an alignment cop out in the open is a thing.
DCIII: so you're clearing Kosa because you think Arn is gambiting scum?
If you assume Arn is town, then what is your read on Kosa?
~ R
Absolutely not clearing Kosa. My read on his play is scummy regardless of Arn's alignment. My pause was that I was having trouble reconciling Arn's play with his approach to Kosa if they were teammates there; and Arn is my strongest scum read. I mentioned in my last post that I realized there could be motives for Arn's actions that make sense with Kosa being a teammate, though, so I'm not on that anymore.
@Hooker - regarding my points around Arn's play re: his stances from his T/S list to his wagon analysis (most specifically, Kosa) what do you disagree with specifically? What about his discussion with Rhanderic early, specifically, made you think he was Town when you said that their play was "alignment indicative"?
Hooker's discussion around knowing about a bomb and then rationalizing the Item Cop role makes me wary. I have reason to believe that items exist that can help Town, which is another reason that Arn's claim doesn't sit well with me along with his play.
Hooker's post was all kinds of "I'm going to be self-conscious about my vote and non-committal about reads but since I'm calling myself out on it/being transparent about it, don't think it's scummy." Which I also don't like.
Arn, Kosa, and Hooker are my top scum reads at the moment, in that order. DK and Wildfire have each done things to concern me but have also done things I've liked. Null to scum lean on both. I'm going to have a hard time trusting Rhanderic, but have liked their play so far and have a town lean on them. Void and Shockwave need to post but I have town leans on both from what they've done (stronger read on Void than Shock but I thought a question Shock asked showed a good mindset). I like the questions Vish is asking but also don't like that he(she?) hasn't put her vote anywhere or pressed any read strongly. I've done a 180 on Dagaen, and BigTraine is my strongest Town read.
The fact that he's been avoiding this thread, especially if he's been active elsewhere, serves to reinforce my suspicion of him. Let's get a few more votes on here. Daegan? Now's your chance to get on without being stuck holding the hammer, if you're really concerned how townie you'll look.
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Also, Generic: I think I'm noticing a pattern here that I noticed (and misinterpreted) in Marvel 2, involving your other half in that game. I don't want to call more attention to it than that because the act of making it known to the party doing it might spook them from it, but maybe you can figure out what I'm hinting at from that.
Otherwise, this is just a pin for me to come back to when the situation develops a bit more.
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Also, Generic: I think I'm noticing a pattern here that I noticed (and misinterpreted) in Marvel 2, involving your other half in that game. I don't want to call more attention to it than that because the act of making it known to the party doing it might spook them from it, but maybe you can figure out what I'm hinting at from that.
Otherwise, this is just a pin for me to come back to when the situation develops a bit more.
I think I know what you're saying and I've already alerted Generic of that in Hydra chat quite a while ago.
For the same reason as you, we're not pushing on it yet.
The fact that he's been avoiding this thread, especially if he's been active elsewhere, serves to reinforce my suspicion of him. Let's get a few more votes on here. Daegan? Now's your chance to get on without being stuck holding the hammer, if you're really concerned how townie you'll look.
This is the reason I asked for a town/scum list from Kosa. I wanted his thoughts before he hit claim range, now if he is the lynch, we get little to no information due to his supreme lack of content. :/
The fact that he's been avoiding this thread, especially if he's been active elsewhere, serves to reinforce my suspicion of him. Let's get a few more votes on here. Daegan? Now's your chance to get on without being stuck holding the hammer, if you're really concerned how townie you'll look.
I thought it was Hooker who was concerned about how townie he'd look re: Kosa wagon?
I don't like this post. It's like you're trying to bait a vote with a pre-set trap that if the person does it'll look scummy but if they don't, it'll also look scummy.
The fight here between Arn and Generic plays out very differently. For starters, Arn was a lot more cautious with his vote initially (besides his RVS vote on Reaching), only placing it on Daegan after repeated goading from Reaching. He also maintains that Reaching is town throughout, and simply finds ways to call his scum read into question. The fight has also been drawn out longer, over more pages and days. The fight in Industry was a flash fight, and can, as Arn references, be chalked up to jitters as town. The fight here has been a long and nasty thing, and reads a lot more like Scum trying to cover their mistakes than anything else.
Repeatedly, he brings up very wordy defenses of himself rather than any actual scumhunting.
Repeatedly, he volunteers games for people to check his meta, showing an immense degree of self-consciousness.
As I pointed out in #111, his post stating "If you need to see my flip for me to finally convince you I'm town so be it. I just hope the rest of the town doesn't hold it against you that you tunneled me so hard for horrible reasons and lead to a mislynch." reads like he knows Generic is town. His defense of this doesn't really help either.
I'm not going to vote Arn at the moment because he's L-2 and unclaimed, but I am more than willing to post claim, barring a game-changer reveal.
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Un-CC'd cop, guess it's time to look elsewhere. Sigh, of course this happens right when I get a chance to put in this full read on him.
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Vote KosaKosa
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Where'd Dagaen go?
Unvote
Arnnaria (2) - dkingsland967 (77), DCIII (81)
Kosakosa (2) - Reaching_Nerd (252), Wildfire393 (258)
Reaching_Nerd (1) - Vishamon (25)
HookerPunch (1) - HookerPunch (50)
Dagaen (1) - Arnnaria (71)
Bigtraine (1) - Kosakosa (134)
Wildfire (1) - Void (209)
Not Voting: Shockwave07, Bigtraine (260), Dagaen (261)
With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch!
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What the heck do you mean the conversation is indicative of their alignment? Isn't that ALL conversations on mafia? Feels like a weird, random comment to make, and the explanation for it leaves me wanting.
So your reasoning for wanting to wagon Void is...?
I can only buy into the tone argument so much, and not adding content because you are playing a 'low-info' game is a copout. I have a hard time seeing town motivation for making the posts that you have. I could see scum motivation in them.
Vote HookerPunch / Nat
A combination of the now-impending deadline and the fact that I've now had the chance to re-read the entire thread (plus removing someone from my PoE) makes me a lot more confident at this point.
Pre re-read, I had Arn, Kosa, and HookerPunch all as decent Scumreads (maybe a 6.5-7 on a scale of 1-10, with 10 being totally scum). Post re-read, my certainty in both of those reads went up (as well as that on HP, though to a slightly lower degree).
The fact that Reaching, one of the prime movers, also has him as a top suspect also helps. Rather than shoot my vote off on a wasted wagon with deadline pending.
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Either way, we're all gonna burn
Coast and don't make waves, stall the game until the day ends with no kill, get free NKs, skate on by as a middle-of-the-pack read.
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I can think of a couple things:
1. If you are throwing random things into the thread that don't help the town try to find scum, that hurts the town. It's time and effort spent chasing whatever distractions you put out there. Especially now that there is a deadline, but even before that it doesn't help. So I have to wonder, if you are doing things that you know won't help the town out, how could that come from a town perspective?
2. As Wildfire mentioned, you can't just not post at all, so you need to post something to look like you are engaged in the game and hunting scum, but you are really just coasting along. It gives you a presence, but nothing with substance that could be controversial.
Either way, we're all gonna burn
@wildfire: please let people who've had questions directed at them respond to the question before you give your opinion.
I like DC's response to my post re: his bigtraine read. I also like bigtraine re: hookerpunch. Please excuse any poor spelling/spacing, New forums are garbage on mobile.
TL; DR: I still don't like hookerpunch, DC seems cool guy.
Also - Arn says he'd like to see a T/S list from Kosa, where the momentum of the game seems to be headed, but his primary concern with Dagaen which he hasn't seemed to change, was for shifting focus back on Kosa earlier in the game.
There's also this:
Here he says Dagaen's focus on Kosa had no merit to it, also scum suspicion of Wildfire here.
Here Kosa seems Town, main scumspects are Dagaen and Wildfire.
T/S list - leanTown on Kosa, scum reads on Dagaen and Wildfire.
Then after his claim and the wagon starts to dissipate and one of his top two scum reads (Wildfire) votes for Kosa, he goes with the momentum and requests a T/S list from Kosa. Previously had expressed suspicion of Dagaen for shifting focus to Kosa, had twice said he was Town reading Kosa, had no suspicion over Wildfire's focus being on Kosa, and expressed no souring toward Kosa in between these happenings.
Really feels like he's latching onto the first opportunity to take momentum away from himself. I get the mechanical reasons to unvote him without a CC, but behaviorally it really doesn't jive for me.
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Either way, we're all gonna burn
At least you know me, Generic.
Either way, we're all gonna burn
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Kosa feels like Xymande Kosa where he was neutral but did have something to hide. He gave reads confidently with little to back them up and then power lurked like he's doing here. I also agree with the point that he was inconsistent with his Arn vs. BigTraine stance. I think that it's a good wagon and it actually made me feel a little better about Wildfire because he had previously expressed concern around Kosa and then followed it up. I agreed with his reasoning for his vote, as well.
The change in approach from Arn around him gives me some pause, though. I want to see Kosa's reaction to the shift in focus to him.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Void's opening posts and his push on Wildfire feels like Town Void. Scum Void typically doesn't have as much direction with a push early and is more diplomatic while trying to find his footing.
I still have an outstanding question to him about his RVS post re:Killjoy as it looks like he was explaining his RVS post to Wildfire by saying that he and Killjoy are friends outside of the boards... which makes no sense because his RVS post was on me and I don't know Void outside of the boards. So I want to see his response there.
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>_< and here I said I wouldn't do that this game.
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If he was primarily/only an item cop, I'd agree, as that's definitely a scum role. But he's also got the alignment cop, which is definitely town. Sure, he could be hoping to fake it, but then why mention the item cop thing at all? He could just have claimed alignment cop and then used his knowledge of the teams to fake that.
Combine that with the fact that no one has counterclaimed and I'm thinking he's off the table, despite his poor play.
As for why he's only two-shot alignment, that's likely so this doesn't just become a game of "follow the cop".
This is a more convincing argument, but because of the above I still don't think that makes him scum.
Even still, it's raised my curiosity.
@Arnnaria: Why is it that, post your claim, you haven't tried to push me, or continued your push on Daegan? Given that we all pretty soundly believe you're town, you could pretty easily be spearheading your own push, rather than just following Reaching's lead.
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We're not lynching an un-CC'ed cop again.
This statement doesn't mesh with this one...
Generic, I'm curious as to why you believe HP is probably town. As of now, he is where I want to place my vote, but since you're familiar with him I'm willing to hear out your reasoning first.
Kosa also never responded to several people who commented on this.
The thing that gives me pause is that his quick hit-and-run attack on Bigtraine looked very suspiciously like scum trying to shift focus off a buddy, but without a scum!Arn flip that link falls apart.
*****.
I thought Kosa's points on Bigtraine were actually pretty decent in and of themselves. It was the way he ignored similar behavior from Arn and then completely went AWOL when the attack failed to gain traction that looked suspcious to me, and I had him on the back burner as prime suspect #1 if we lynched Arn and he flipped scum.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Void - WWII and TWD are good examples of how he danced around at the beginning of the game and was apologetic and polite with other players before eventually taking a stance somewhere. Scum in both games.
Futurama, and Xymande are good examples of how he was much more overt and had more direction out of the gate like he did with Wildfire here.
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Does "him" here refer to Arn or myself?
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In town's defense, he looked a lot like a Role Cop, and a weak one at that. Had we known that the scum team actually did have false role claims, we probably wouldn't have lynched him.
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I'm mixed on you. You sure put together that information awful fast after Bigtraine voted for me. Simultaneously, a deadline was announced so the point is null. Plus your analysis was more detailed than I expected as if you actually reread instead of just looking for bullet points to hang me by.
And the T/S list by Kosa: if the argument is that he's scum because he was so certain (read: inside information) that im town, then let's get his thoughts on paper before you guys put on the thumbscrews.
I was actually in the process of my re-read when he posted his vote. I read a considerable chunk of Industry as well as all of this game. The total timing on it just ended up being really bad. Stupid IRL responsibilities.
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Those are your words, not mine. Others have called you confrontational in this thread. I am accusing you of (semi) active lurking and not having a desire to help the town team out.
Second this.
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@Generic: I did read your meta analysis before voting for Nat. You had one completed scum game to look at to get Nat's scum meta, right? How confidant are you in that meta read based off of one scum game?
#5-9: Aggression and non committal with Dagaen.
#26, RN: Wagon officially begins. RN switches RVS vote to real vote. Cites lack of aggression as reason for push.
#29-??: Slapfight begins. The following people stay out of it: Dagaen (31), Bigtraine (46), Hookerpunch (50), Void (53). Slapfight seems to end around 56 with my Unvote.
#71, Arn: I vote Dagaen.
#77, Dkings: Hates the vote. Says Generic is onto something. Asks Dagaen a question about RQS. Dagaen answers in 89.
#81, DCIII: barns Dkings and votes me. Doesn't really add any new content to my wagon except a questioning of Dagaen's RQS.
#82-??: Slapfight 2.0 begins. The following people stay out of it: Dagaen (89).
#110, Arn: I bite back and set my foot down on RN.
#115: Void expresses displeasure with wagon.
#117, Dagaen: Waffles. I look defensive, but so would anyone. Dagaen and I go back and forth until around 140 let's say. I wouldn't call this another Slpfight because Dagaen simply keeps repeating the same questions and points over and over again as if he's looking for a chink in the armor. This could either be an "aha, you've scumslipped" or he has nothing to go off of. I believe it's the latter. Dagaen puts his vote on me in 140. I'm at L-4.
#134, Kosa: we're both certainly town, stop wasting time with each other. But I've never once expressed any doubts RN was town. In fact, throughout the slapfights ice been pretty adamant they prove RN is town. Is Kosa even reading or using inside information to appear as a mediator?
#150, Hookerpunch. Believes me by his gut.
#178, Vishamon chimes in for the first time on the wagon, but with a question directed toward Dagaen's views on me instead of directly addressing it.
#206: Wildfire expresses doubts about me for the first time. Right after I post my town / scum list. Wherein I list him as leaning scum. I'm still at L-4. Looking back, I still think Wildfire doesn't want to get his hands dirty.
#232: between 206 and this post Wildfire gets attacked for his fence sitting. Eventually Wildfire offers up analysis. Is he appeasing his detractors?
#248: Cythare sets the deadline. Backs to the walls.
#250: Bigtraine votes.
#251: I claim.
I still like wildfire and Dagaen as scum. I still wanna see a town/scum list from Kosa.
Just noticed this gem. The utter lack of content from kosa feels to me like a disinterested player, either because they don't feel invested in the game, or because they are more interested in their role because of night phase actions.
I'm interested to hear why you (Gen) read Kosa as scum, but Hookerpunch as VT. I understand what you're speculating about Hookerpunch's mindset, having felt and played that way before with a vanilla town role, but I'm not sure how you get that read on HP but not Kosa (I guess this is like Kosa's Bigtraine vs arn faux-pas earlier). Is it just a meta read?
Arn
@Rhanderic - because I was thinking along the same lines of Wildfire in #285. If Arn just made a claim that backed most people off, why wouldn't he pursue one of his previously established reads rather than following you (and one of his scum reads, Wildfire) right onto Kosa, who he previously hadn't taken issue with? If they are scumbuddies together, that wouldn't seem like a logical move as there were other directions that he could have gone and the Kosa wagon was only two players deep.
I thought of a reason he might, though. If he was worried there might be a CC eventually coming, he might be distancing.
Arn is still my top suspect which I'll say more about below, though.
-----------------------------------------------------------
I know he's unCCed, but not everyone has checked in since his claim. There also may not be someone to CC him and he could still be faking.
If no CC comes out, I don't mind waiting to see what happens with regard to Night actions; but I know that I'm going to have a hard time trusting him down the road.
Look at his wagon analysis: He calls out Kosa for #134, a point that others have referenced, but then in #173 Arn expresses favorable views of Kosa after that point had already been made. He was pressuring Dagaen about shifting the conversation back to Kosa and kept both his scum read on Dagaen and his Town lean on Kosa through his initial T/S list. It's like this read on Kosa just materialized when it was convenient and as other people started discussing it/his wagon was disbanding.
Look at his analysis of me in his reference to #81 - he says I barn DK and add no new content to the case except for questioning the RQS. That's very different than in his T/S list when he said that I was scumhunting and asking good questions.
Throughout the game his play has mirrored what it appears that he thinks others would want/expect him to do; from his initial vote on Dagaen, to seemingly forcing his read to stay on Dagaen, to his mindset around certain players after his claim changing regarding their previous actions.
Even the wagon analysis he looked like he was going to delay and then when discussion started to shift back to him, he jumped on it.
I don't like it. I was reading recently that mafia is about eliminating distractions and focusing on behavior and his behavior seems very scummy to me.
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But anyways, alright, let's do this.
Either way, we're all gonna burn
Alright, working down this list, bare with me a little.
I have three roleclaims at the moment(yes three deal w/it and/or learn to read crumbs) and the game is starting to fall into place a little.
I don't know if anyone else is aware atm, but there are items in this game. To be specific, my role mentions the EMP bomb in particular. I know in the opening flavor it's mentioned, but my role specifically mentions it has in-game implications. My suspicions are that the EMP-bomb is a sort of simultaneous frame/roleblock sort of thing, but I don't have anything to work off right now. In that sense, item cop makes sense. I'm a bit skeptical about alignment cop, but I find it not-unlikely, I guess. Also >lynching cops day one when not obvscum(and the people saying Arn is obvscum are, seriously, just wrong--give me a little credit). On the whole, I am completely willing to believe this claim. In any case, it is entirely possible the scum solve that equation for us tonight so let's leave him be.
My top suspects are, well, I guess I'd have to read the game for that. Hmm. I mentioned Kosa before, and I wholeheartedly agree with that wagon. I'm only hesitating voting now because I don't want a *****ty spot on the wagon(yeah sue me I worry about my towniness as town). Beyond that, I'm feeling good about Bigtraine just via association I guess. Willing to believe Wildfire scum, Shockwave town. I had a reason to think these two were linked, but I lost that train of thought. DCIII I dunno, waiting for Arn's eventual flip. Daegan's interesting, he puts lots of pressure but not really? Lurkers gon' lurk, although iirc, this is out of character for void?
Either way, we're all gonna burn
My flavor also mentions the EMP Bomb, but from context I had assumed it was just flavor. It talks about the team trying to "retrieve" the EMP device, which I took to mean that this is the mission we're on and the objective we'll accomplish if town is successful.
I assumed that an "item cop" would play something like this: http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Thief
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If he refuses to post, we're going to wagon him. He's active elsewhere.
Something about this entire paragraph reads off. This is a lot of fear-mongering about the storyline of the game. Also, someone speculating about a frame item/ability with an alignment cop out in the open is a thing.
Absolutely not clearing Kosa. My read on his play is scummy regardless of Arn's alignment. My pause was that I was having trouble reconciling Arn's play with his approach to Kosa if they were teammates there; and Arn is my strongest scum read. I mentioned in my last post that I realized there could be motives for Arn's actions that make sense with Kosa being a teammate, though, so I'm not on that anymore.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
@Hooker - regarding my points around Arn's play re: his stances from his T/S list to his wagon analysis (most specifically, Kosa) what do you disagree with specifically? What about his discussion with Rhanderic early, specifically, made you think he was Town when you said that their play was "alignment indicative"?
Hooker's discussion around knowing about a bomb and then rationalizing the Item Cop role makes me wary. I have reason to believe that items exist that can help Town, which is another reason that Arn's claim doesn't sit well with me along with his play.
Hooker's post was all kinds of "I'm going to be self-conscious about my vote and non-committal about reads but since I'm calling myself out on it/being transparent about it, don't think it's scummy." Which I also don't like.
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Arn, Kosa, and Hooker are my top scum reads at the moment, in that order. DK and Wildfire have each done things to concern me but have also done things I've liked. Null to scum lean on both. I'm going to have a hard time trusting Rhanderic, but have liked their play so far and have a town lean on them. Void and Shockwave need to post but I have town leans on both from what they've done (stronger read on Void than Shock but I thought a question Shock asked showed a good mindset). I like the questions Vish is asking but also don't like that he(she?) hasn't put her vote anywhere or pressed any read strongly. I've done a 180 on Dagaen, and BigTraine is my strongest Town read.
Unvote: Vote: KosaKosa
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Kosakosa (4) - Reaching_Nerd (252), Wildfire393 (258), dkingsland967 (317), DCIII (318)
HookerPunch (2) - HookerPunch (50), Bigtraine (265)
Reaching_Nerd (1) - Vishamon (25)
Dagaen (1) - Arnnaria (71)
Bigtraine (1) - Kosakosa (134)
Wildfire (1) - Void (209)
Not Voting: Shockwave07, Dagaen (261)
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The fact that he's been avoiding this thread, especially if he's been active elsewhere, serves to reinforce my suspicion of him. Let's get a few more votes on here. Daegan? Now's your chance to get on without being stuck holding the hammer, if you're really concerned how townie you'll look.
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Otherwise, this is just a pin for me to come back to when the situation develops a bit more.
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I think I know what you're saying and I've already alerted Generic of that in Hydra chat quite a while ago.
For the same reason as you, we're not pushing on it yet.
~ R
This is the reason I asked for a town/scum list from Kosa. I wanted his thoughts before he hit claim range, now if he is the lynch, we get little to no information due to his supreme lack of content. :/
I thought it was Hooker who was concerned about how townie he'd look re: Kosa wagon?
I don't like this post. It's like you're trying to bait a vote with a pre-set trap that if the person does it'll look scummy but if they don't, it'll also look scummy.
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2014: Most Improved Player
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