MTG Salvation

Quote from Dagaen

What do you mean by "controlling the conversation"?

You've tried to steer the conversation back towards Kosa's RVS vote multiple times.

Quote from Reaching_Nerd

And also, why deflect back to us? Your timing of vote earned you two other people on your wagon... How is that anything to do with us?

You voted, two people found it scummy, you come back claiming we would confbias you no matter what you did... So it's OUR fault you voted when you did? How does that work?


You can tell I. Getting marked now can't you

~ G

So am I. I'm sorry, I'm just a little upset after I heard that Paltrow and Martin are getting divorced.

It's not your fault I voted when I did. What I'm saying is, and what I will continue to say because you're not hearing it is, no matter when I voted Dagaen be it now or twenty posts from now you would've found it scummy.

Well you've been tunneling me pretty hard so maybe it's naive to think that the sole reason for your vote is based upon my vote.

I don't see how I'm side stepping. I'm waiting for a response from dkings and DCIII; wildfire addressed my point too.

Sure you've found me scummy since before my vote. I'll concede that point. But how is saying you can't read me a straw man? You can't, Generic.

The way I see it...

You attacked me for not being aggressive enough.
Rhand attacked me for being too aggressive.
When I pointed out this hydra flaw you both switched your tune to me not voting.
I voted.
Dkings and DCIII voted me.
I made my defense against their votes.
You attacked my defense before they've even responded.
We've been going back and forth ever since.

Where am I wrong in this chain of events?

I've told you why I didn't push Dagaen. I was keeping a note in thread for later.

I've told you why I voted when I did. Because voting at any time after you made the post I responded to would have drawn suspicion on me no matter what. I was damned if I do and damned if I don't and I'd rather put my own neck on the line than not pursue a scumspect because I'm worried about my own personal well being.

So maybe it was a push in the back of my mind. I didn't see it as such at the time. Dagaen's disappearance afterwards has not signaled anything scummy to you?

In fact, this entire thread has turned into a bickering match between the two of us and choked off any conversation that might be important for the rest of the day. If you're not happy until I flip there's nothing I can do at this point to assuage your suspicions of me. You keep circularly asking questions and asking for my reasoning and my answers never change. And it's getting annoying to me that you are tunneling me so badly that you aren't listening to what I'm saying. I've explained time and again my mindset and you asking me over and over again isn't going to catch me in some scum lie. Because I'm not scum.

If you need to see my flip for me to finally convince you I'm town so be it. I just hope the rest of the town doesn't hold it against you that you tunneled me so hard for horrible reasons and lead to a mislynch. If you have any new questions to ask, I'll be happy to answer them. But I'm not going to tie up the rest of the game chasing our collective tails.

If I was scum I'd ignore both of your questions. But I've been forthright and answered them over and over again. But we're not getting anywhere anymore so I'd appreciate it if you'd wait for the rest of the thread to chime in with their opinions on the situation than going into circles for another fifty thousand pages.

Quote from Wildfire393

Quote from Arnnaria

If you need to see my flip for me to finally convince you I'm town so be it. I just hope the rest of the town doesn't hold it against you that you tunneled me so hard for horrible reasons and lead to a mislynch.

This reads like you know he's town.

Because I don't see any scum motivation in his posts. If he was scum he wouldn't be pushing this hard for a mislynch when he knows his own neck would be on the line the next day. It's bad play for Generic and Rhand and I think of them as better players than that.

I don't handle pressure well. You were in Industry, do you not remember my post war with Sir Karn after I changed my vote?

I'm not liking the wagon on Arn from previous game experience. I'm not seeing anything out of the norm from Arn.

Generic's Right Hand is a slight town read at the moment. Nothing has come across Scummy.

Wildfire's vote on me is awful. Reasoning can be believable, but I am not believing it. It's very early in the game and yet Wildfire would rather focus on someone who obviously had something pressing. Anybody who knows me knows that I don't avoid content unless there is reason. Wildfire should know this as well since we have played together in the past. It's scummy for sure, but I am not sold on Wildfire being Scum based on everything so far.

Everyone else is a null read.

Quote from Dagaen

Wow, that was quite a read.

Arnnaria sure looks defensive but anyone would be after such hard tunneling from Nerd. That probably makes Nerd Townie(s), I don't see any logic in pushing so hard so quickly as scum.

Arn, your vote or me sure looks like forced by circumstances and you keep constantly saying that the timing was unfortunate. I guess that's possible, but you were suspecting me since the beginning and it took one other voter and Nerd's prod for you to vote. Could you state your case against me?

You didn't make a vote during RVS.
When you were called on it you got self conscious.
You then tried to extend RVS with RQS.
You got suspicious of Kosakosa for also trying to extend RVS.
You began trying to steer conversation back toward Kosa who you won't even admit was a serious vote or not even though nobody was biting.

Quote from Wildfire393

Again, I do apologize for missing the note about posting more content after pressing IRL issues were dealt with. (Although, you did a lot of avoiding content in Industry and your reasoning was just that there was too much to catch up on and had other games, IIRC...) Having seen some followup though, I'm ready to unvote. I'm still curious, however, as to why you made an RVS vote and unvoted right away. We were at the tail end of RVS, there was no *need* to RVS in your opener, but if you were going to do it, you might as well stick to it.

Arn's reactions are indeed similar to the Karnnaria interaction in Industry. However, not having seen his scum game, I don't know if that's just a trait he generally has or one he mostly has as town.

Generic (and Rhand) is more pushy/riled up than he was in Marvel, which would have me leaning town except for the fact that he *knows* we're all onto his meta. I'm going to be extremely leery about townclearing him on day 1 behavior.

Like to see some more from people who aren't either of these two.

My only current scum game is Polyopticon but I had to replace out. If you want to go back further look at Smalltown Animaniacs. I'd have to check if I have any other scumgames further than that.

Quote from Dagaen

Quote from Arnnaria

You didn't make a vote during RVS.
When you were called on it you got self conscious.
You then tried to extend RVS with RQS.
You got suspicious of Kosakosa for also trying to extend RVS.
You began trying to steer conversation back toward Kosa who you won't even admit was a serious vote or not even though nobody was biting.

It's not just that you ignored RVS; that's just part of it. It's a combination that you ignored RVS and then later claimed Kosa was scummy for trying to extend RVS after you tried to extend RVS.

Is not casting a vote during RVS a scumtell to you? Yes or no.
Ok, most of those points doesn't make sense.

How ignoring RVS makes me a scum? When I was self-conscious, when I've asked YOU why do you want me to vote? When do you think RVS was over?

Last point makes some sense I guess, but I don't see why being questioned should prevent me for questioning others. I think most of us have enough augmentations to handle some multitasking.

Quote from Dagaen

Quote from Arnnaria

You didn't make a vote during RVS.
When you were called on it you got self conscious.
You then tried to extend RVS with RQS.
You got suspicious of Kosakosa for also trying to extend RVS.
You began trying to steer conversation back toward Kosa who you won't even admit was a serious vote or not even though nobody was biting.

Ok, most of those points doesn't make sense.

How ignoring RVS makes me a scum? When I was self-conscious, when I've asked YOU why do you want me to vote? When do you think RVS was over?

Last point makes some sense I guess, but I don't see why being questioned should prevent me for questioning others. I think most of us have enough augmentations to handle some multitasking.

Fixed

It's not just that you ignored RVS; that's just part of it. It's a combination that you ignored RVS and then later claimed Kosa was scummy for trying to extend RVS after you tried to extend RVS.

Is not casting a vote during RVS a scumtell to you? Yes or no.

Why the **** are we still talking about the RVS.

I think the forum ate my last attempt at this, so lets try again....

Quote from Reaching_Nerd

It's not the agressiveness in the first posts that made me think you're scum: that was merely the base of me questioning your mindset. It's the reactions afterwards that were bad: the self-consciousness and the denial.
What sealed the deal for me is that you're showing a contradiction in mindset: you're not seeing your own attacks as pushes, but when called out on that you do agree that it was pushing that you were doing.

~ R

I agree with quite a bit of this post. I didn't think Arn's initial posts were bad, but the subsequent follow-ups and response to pressure makes me more and more suspicious.

1. I don't like the switch from "it wasn't a push" to agreeing with Rhand that it was a push.
2. I don't like post #90. Seems like the pressure is getting to Arn and he slips into a more Ad Hominem mode ("Generic cant read me"; "Rhand tunnels too hard").
3. The timing of the vote on Dagaen doesn't seem as bad to me as maybe it is to others. I could see Arn waiting for Dagaen's reply (which came in #66), and this was the first opportunity for Arn to vote after Dagaen's post.
4. Finally, I am bothered a bit by the comments of Dagaen trying to steer the conversation to Kosa. Maybe I am missing something, but I re-read the thread and I see the initial vote and only one more question about Kosa in post #43 (asking about Kosa meta). This feels like a distraction, and one that is not based in fact.

@Hooker - that's not much of a contribution... what do you think about the ongoing debate re: Arn, Dagaen, and Rhanderic?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am starting to feel better about Dagaen.

Arn's #110 feels emotionally genuine but his explanation for his case on Dagaen I don't get; specifically the points about attempting to extend RVS with RQS, and his push on Kosa. RQS, from my understanding, is an attempt at killing RVS by generating discussion... not extending it. So how is calling out Kosa for being self-conscious with his RVS vote hypocritical? Can you also go into more depth about the point about why Dagaen steering the conversation toward Kosa even though no one was biting was scummy? I regularly try to steer the conversation toward players no one else is suspecting when I'm Town - which has nothing to do with whether other players are biting on my read and everything to do with my read on that player.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In other news, I'm not feeling good about Wildfire. In #116 he's apologetic to Void about his saying that he would post content later and unvotes him, but still takes issue with the RVS vote/unvote after the unvote. Wild, if you still have concerns about Void's play, why unvote him? You were the only vote on him so he's not like he's overly pressured at the moment.

Normally that would be a result of someone else seeming more scummy to you and moving your vote there, but your reads on both Arn and Rhanderic basically just sat the fence. It looks self-conscious about where your vote is, to me.

Wildfire was apologetic to me in Industry when I feigned hurt feelings about a snipe he made Day III about a misfired Vig shot. Meta?

I'm not familiar enough with Wildfire's completed games.

***

DCIII I am unfamiliar with the term RQS. I have been operating under the assumption this entire time that RQS is exactly like RVS except players ask random questions to each other instead of voting. Hence, my view that Dagaen was further "extending" a random element of gameplay. If this is an err in acronym usage therein lies the confusion.

As the group makes its way through the Daigong District, accusations fly back and forth between squad members.
"Arnnaria, what is your preferred method of combat?"
"Why is this a relevant topic at this time, Dagaen? Are you trying to figure out how best to stab me in the back?", Arnnaria quickly responds.
Reaching_Nerd wheels around to face Arnnaria. "Why are you concerned about backstabbing? Do you have betrayal on your mind?"

A couple walks by the group. The woman turns to the man and whispers:
"這是一個特別行動小組？ 他們永遠不會逃脫這樣的。" ("Is this a special operations group? They'll never escape like this.")

Vote Count 1.02:
Arnnaria (3) - Reaching_Nerd (15), dkingsland967 (77), DCIII (81)
dkingsland967 (1) - Kosakosa (10)
Kosakosa (1) - Dagaen (14)
Reaching_Nerd (1) - Vishamon (25)
HookerPunch (1) - HookerPunch (50)
Dagaen (1) - Arnnaria (71)

Not Voting: Shockwave07, Bigtraine, Void (53), Wildfire393 (116)

With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch!

I think the Arn-Daegan argument is pointless and I think the Generic-Arn argument is alignment indicative.

Quote from Dagaen

Cythare summed things up pretty well now:D

Arnnaria, the thing is your case against me is much weaker than it should be. I was fairly active thus far and you are still concentrating on my first post and lack of RVS vote. You could use DC's arguments or pressure me for something else, but it looks like nothing has changed since you've placed your vote on me. It looks more like an attempt to show others that your reasoning for placing that vote is valid than actual scumhunting.

So my case would have more merit if I banned someone else's case? I said you were trying to control the conversation. Do you not consider DC's case akin to this?

This is probably the closest expression of what my reaction while reading Arn and Rhanderic's slapfight was:


You're most certainly both town. Stop wasting your time with each other.

Quote from Dagaen

The answer to your question is obviously "no". Random vote on someone never accomplishes anything since everyone knows you are trolling, there is no real merit here. I have no idea how refusing to perform meaningless actions is a scumtell, but perhaps you can enlighten me.

Not random voting someone has already accomplished more D1 scum lynches in this site than I can possibly count.

Quote from Bigtraine

I agree with quite a bit of this post. I didn't think Arn's initial posts were bad, but the subsequent follow-ups and response to pressure makes me more and more suspicious.

1. I don't like the switch from "it wasn't a push" to agreeing with Rhand that it was a push.
2. I don't like post #90. Seems like the pressure is getting to Arn and he slips into a more Ad Hominem mode ("Generic cant read me"; "Rhand tunnels too hard").
3. The timing of the vote on Dagaen doesn't seem as bad to me as maybe it is to others. I could see Arn waiting for Dagaen's reply (which came in #66), and this was the first opportunity for Arn to vote after Dagaen's post.
4. Finally, I am bothered a bit by the comments of Dagaen trying to steer the conversation to Kosa. Maybe I am missing something, but I re-read the thread and I see the initial vote and only one more question about Kosa in post #43 (asking about Kosa meta). This feels like a distraction, and one that is not based in fact.

Wow, many nice points here huh. We can really see how you are more and more suspicious about Arn!

...And yet noncommital enough to not place a vote. Pff, sure.

Unvote
Vote Bigtraine

Quote from Arnnaria

Wildfire was apologetic to me in Industry when I feigned hurt feelings about a snipe he made Day III about a misfired Vig shot. Meta?

I'm not familiar enough with Wildfire's completed games.

***

DCIII I am unfamiliar with the term RQS. I have been operating under the assumption this entire time that RQS is exactly like RVS except players ask random questions to each other instead of voting. Hence, my view that Dagaen was further "extending" a random element of gameplay. If this is an err in acronym usage therein lies the confusion.

What was Wildfire's alignment in Industry?

Let's ignore the term RQS, as it seems to be confusing the point. He said that his purpose was to start asking questions to get dialogue going as opposed to going through RVS, so whether or not he's calling it RQS, how is what he actually did hypocritical with what he went after Kosa for? You also didn't respond to my question about what you saw as scummy about him pressing Kosa when no one else was biting.

Quote from Wildfire393

My main reason for voting him was the fact that he had an extremely breezy check-in, that I missed also contained a note to add more content later citing IRL reasons. I left it there after seeing that note as a friendly reminder for him to do said later content. He did so to my satisfaction. That doesn't mean I can't question his motives for other things.
For the most part, I'm not fond of jumping to an early conclusion about anyone, and when I have in the past, it hasn't turned out well for me. My vote is staying null until I see someone that I think is worth pushing. Neither Arn nor Reaching is that someone, and no one else has really posted enough yet for me to draw a read on them.

Still not digging this. Void had only made one post and it's not like there was any indication he was avoiding content or that he needed your vote as a reminder to post it. There were other players who hadn't yet posted much content at that point, either.

You're saying two very different things. On one hand, you don't like to jump to conclusions and are keeping your vote null, which is why you unvoted Void. On the other hand, you pressured Void for unvoting his RVS post in the same post and then left your vote on him to pressure him into posting content when there was no indication that he was reluctant to do so.

The explanation doesn't jive.

Quote from HookerPunch

I think the Arn-Daegan argument is pointless and I think the Generic-Arn argument is alignment indicative.

Please elaborate on why.

But that's work.

I haven't decided which way Gen-Arn are yet.

DCIII:

Wildfire was scum when he apologized to me a couple times when I feigned butthurt over a minor aggressive flame he made early Day Three. The game is confusing as alignments switched daily, but Wildfire got more aggressive and annotantive on Day Three.

I just saw Dagaen as a little kid poking us with a stick, "Hey guys, look at Kosa.". The big kids don't respond because there's really no merit to it. "Hey guys, look at Kosa.". The big kids continue to smoke their cigarettes. It just struck me as scummy that he doesnt elaborate anything further than asking others to go further.

And the hypocrisy was that Dagaen extended the random BS with posing me a stupid question but attacks Kosa for random BS.

Sorry that last post is a jumbled mess. I was sitting in an ER room and the doctor walked in to give me the results of a chest X Ray and I finished typing really fast while he explained to me that I have a severe case of bronchitis. The doctor was kinda pissed. Mafia 4 life. I'll answer anymore questions tomorrow.

Quote from Reaching_Nerd

Quote from Arnnaria

Question for all on my wagon: After Generic's initial attack on me for not placing my vote on Dagaen and ending RVS in the fifth or sixth post of the thread, was there anytime I could have placed my vote on Dagaen that would not immediately have been called scummy by Rhanderic?

Why would this even bother you if you're not scum?

~ R

/barn

Quote from Arnnaria

Which is why I was asking people on my wagon (dkings and DCIII) who have seemed to jump on it for my vote.

I will concede your point that you painted yourself into a corner regarding when you voted Dagaen. However, I don't see how that means you aren't scum. I think if you were town you would be trying to make us see what you see instead of using emotional defense, and especially not trying to halt the discussion altogether when that defense doesn't work.

Quote from Arnnaria

I unvoted you because even though you're tunneling me pretty hard I do not believe it's coming from a scum mindset. I know you can't read me, Generic. You proved that immensely in Industry when you thought I was scum all three days and I was not. Rhand on the other hand I don't know what his deal is, but once Rhand commits to something he can't see the forest for the trees and doesn't get off the wagon until he's disproven. Both of you are wrong here though.

This has already been pointed out, but what's the deal with throwing thinly-veiled insults at Generic and Rhand in this post as a way of discrediting their reads, especially considering that in a later post you called them both very strong players?

Quote from Wildfire393

Generic (and Rhand) is more pushy/riled up than he was in Marvel, which would have me leaning town except for the fact that he *knows* we're all onto his meta. I'm going to be extremely leery about townclearing him on day 1 behavior.

I seriously doubt the hydra is scum. Look at how invested they are in pushing this wagon. I know from previous games and the X-Men 2 scumchat that scum!Rhand will not bus, so as far as I'm concerned they're cleared if Arn is scum. And if Arn is town, I can't see scum motivation in spear-heading a wagon against him, especially this early in the game. They're town who believe they have caught scum, and I'm inclined to agree.

Quote from Kosakosa

Quote from Bigtraine

I agree with quite a bit of this post. I didn't think Arn's initial posts were bad, but the subsequent follow-ups and response to pressure makes me more and more suspicious.

1. I don't like the switch from "it wasn't a push" to agreeing with Rhand that it was a push.
2. I don't like post #90. Seems like the pressure is getting to Arn and he slips into a more Ad Hominem mode ("Generic cant read me"; "Rhand tunnels too hard").
3. The timing of the vote on Dagaen doesn't seem as bad to me as maybe it is to others. I could see Arn waiting for Dagaen's reply (which came in #66), and this was the first opportunity for Arn to vote after Dagaen's post.
4. Finally, I am bothered a bit by the comments of Dagaen trying to steer the conversation to Kosa. Maybe I am missing something, but I re-read the thread and I see the initial vote and only one more question about Kosa in post #43 (asking about Kosa meta). This feels like a distraction, and one that is not based in fact.

Wow, many nice points here huh. We can really see how you are more and more suspicious about Arn!

...And yet noncommital enough to not place a vote. Pff, sure.

Unvote
Vote Bigtraine

Kosa, I like your points about Bigtraine here, but you believe Arn is town. How is Bigtraine's behavior here really any different from Arn's behavior regarding Dagaen?

Quote from HookerPunch

But that's work.

I haven't decided which way Gen-Arn are yet.

I really dislike the bolded. Why are you brushing off questions? There is certainly enough content in the thread to have some kind of real reads by now.

Ah the classic 'he's not posting content'. I've heard that specific accusation many times in my life...I think you guys will actually lynch me over it, though, lol(that hasn't happened since like 2009!).

Arn/Dag really comes down to some *****ty RVS theory talk and is easily argued from a truthful, emotional perspective no matter one's alignment. Hence, nothing to be gained from there.

As to Gen(since I'm pretty much solely going to be talking to that hydra as Generic)-Arn, well, I haven't decided what exactly that means yet. I've had a good track record at reading Generic lately, and I think he's mostly town at the moment. Arnarnia(and a lot of the rest of you, really) are very hard for me to read simply because people don't write from the heart here(also I'm a slow starter when it comes to mafia--I wish every game started on day 2). But, in any case, I do believe Arnarnia is being genuine in their posts there(even if I haven't really read them). Yes, I know I'm being as non-commital as possible here.

Quote from Reaching_Nerd

What makes Arn "Most certainly town" here?

~ R

My gut does. None of Arn's posts has made me uneasy, and considering how much of a paranoid player I am, it's enough for me to believe he's probably town.

Now drop it and help me get Bigtraine lynched. That last post of his is textbook non-committal scum.

Quote from Wildfire393

Shockwave - Only two posts, both high content. Favorable

You think?

Quote from Shockwave07

If its code, its pretty damn smart to use something that could be easily, very easily implied to game terms.

But I don't think it's good to look to make connections in such things. I think a better question is there a motivation behind Daegan's extending RVS then latching onto the first person, Kosakosa, who does the same?

I'm inclined to go with a tentative vote on Daegan, but I would like his response on that matter first.

Quote from Shockwave07

You should see how long it took TMCT to kill RVS in Walking Dead mafia. This game nearly had one as short if not shorter. So in some sense people were trying to extend it. Not that I think that is a good reason to vote early game... But then again what is?

I just think its strange Daegan latched onto someone for doing something in a similar spirit to what he was doing.

I definitely would not consider those posts high content. There is a little bit of flavor talk (par for the course), one incredibly non-committal read, and that's about it.

Still sick. Been sleeping all day.

Dagaen I've already answered that question. If you want to hear the answer again, reread my posts.

Because Arn already had a wagon formed over him and scum avoid drawing attention by joining mid-wagon. On the other hand, Arn's vote on Daegen would be the first of its wagon, a much more comfortable place for scum to be: there's barely reason for scum!Arn (a seasoned player AFAIK) to show hesitance in regard to starting a D1 wagon. Plus, I don't sense scumminess in his following defense/slap fight with you.

Bigtraine on the other hand, states every single, plausible reason as to why he believes Arn to be scum... But doesn't join in. Why?

Because he's scum, Arn's town and he (BT) is afraid of joining the mislynch wagon. That's why.

Quote from Kosakosa

Bigtraine on the other hand, states every single, plausible reason as to why he believes Arn to be scum... But doesn't join in. Why?

Because he's scum, Arn's town and he (BT) is afraid of joining the mislynch wagon. That's why.

If I had to vote someone right now, it would be Arn. But I don't have to vote someone yet, so I am abstaining. He is suspicious to me (for the points I noted), but I'm not ready to commit to a lynch yet. So I didn't vote for him.

@Dagaen: I don't read the words of a post, just the tone. My main niche as a town player is in being able to read tonality and emotion better than most and reading the game through a time-specific lens(I use the term tempo, although it works better on scum vs here due to the playerbase). Also, I'm solid at setup spec, I guess(see: SEM2 where I managed to fool the person I consider to be the god of setup-breaking, Tar).

@Generic/Rhand: It's not that I want to discount Rhand as a player--I actually respect him quite a bit after SEM2, but I typically refer to hydras via the player I know best. I'll do my best, though. And, please, call me Nat.

[spoiler=For Generic's Eyes Only]I hate using real life as an excuse, but my doc changed my depression med on me during the last day of Song Contest there and my emotional state was very...fragile, which led to the self-hammer. Sorry [/spoiler

@Wildfire: When I said alignment-indicative, I more meant that the conversation was indicative of their alignment in some fashion, but yes, I'm leaning T-T based off some of the arguments presented by others right now. As to Kosa, I don't have much on him but the tunnel on Bigtraine is lazy.

I would expect scum to follow Seppel's Rules to Win as Mafia and stay away from the terrible wagon Arn's is.

And you calling Bigtraine "better for having held off" a vote on someone he thoughtfully had as scum is as ridiculous as your dismissal of the fact that the votes that always attract the most attention, in retrospect, during D1 lynches are the ones in the middle of the wagon and the hammer. Especially when said lynchee is town.

But you have a good point, indeed: Arn's alignment is independent of Bigtraine's because if Arn is town, he's just avoiding a bad wagon, whereas if Arn is scum, BG is unsure whether or not he should bus his scummate (hence why laying reasons for scum!Arn to "stay cool" but not committing a vote).

Either way Bigtraine is scum. He should be the toDay's lynch because, you know, he's scum.

Disregard grammar errors, it's 2:30 AM and I suck at iPhone.

Quote from Kosakosa

I would expect scum to follow Seppel's Rules to Win as Mafia and stay away from the terrible wagon Arn's is.

And you calling Bigtraine "better for having held off" a vote on someone he thoughtfully had as scum is as ridiculous as your dismissal of the fact that the votes that always attract the most attention, in retrospect, during D1 lynches are the ones in the middle of the wagon and the hammer. Especially when said lynchee is town.

But you have a good point, indeed: Arn's alignment is independent of Bigtraine's because if Arn is town, he's just avoiding a bad wagon, whereas if Arn is scum, BG is unsure whether or not he should bus his scummate (hence why laying reasons for scum!Arn to "stay cool" but not committing a vote).

Either way Bigtraine is scum. He should be the toDay's lynch because, you know, he's scum.

Dude, you have got to stop bringing up Seppel's Rules to Win as Mafia in every single game.

A) It does nothing but introduce WIFOM. You yourself even speculated in Xymande that it was possible that players were specifically playing around them.
B) Half the players here have probably never even seen them, and you may be helping scum out by pointing them toward a resource they can use for strategy tips.

You didn't answer my question before: how is Bigtraine's behavior fundamentally different from Arn's? If anything, Arn looks worse to me for the self-conscious reasoning and vote after being called out on it, while Bigtraine gave you a fairly reasoned response and didn't succumb to the pressure to place a vote.

The group retreats into an alleyway for some privacy. That couple was right - if there was a traitor in their group, they would need to hash it out before moving forward with the extraction plan or risk being discovered, captured, or worse on their way out of Hengsha.

Vote Count 1.03
Arnnaria (4) - Reaching_Nerd (15), dkingsland967 (77), DCIII (81), Dagaen (140)
Reaching_Nerd (1) - Vishamon (25)
HookerPunch (1) - HookerPunch (50)
Dagaen (1) - Arnnaria (71)
Bigtraine (1) - Kosakosa (134)

Not Voting: Shockwave07, Bigtraine, Void (53), Wildfire393 (116)

Kosa reads town to me. I'm seeing nothing out of the ordinary here for him.

Right now my main scumspects are Dagaen and Wildfire.

I'll elaborate more later but I need to V/LA until Monday. I wanna get over this Bronchitis before my party Sunday.