DCIII: I am slightly paranoid about him because meta. He let off the accelerator awfully quick in regards to Dagaen, which is not what I'm used to from him. He tunneled pretty relentlessly in TMNT and Walking Dead.
Wildfire: For the people who are looking at him, he is a bad D1 lynch. In X-Men 2 he was town, but was always under the gun because of textbook newbscum tells (reads changing on a dime, lacking conviction, etc) and constantly Garcia'ing people. This is a quote from a different game that is applicable here, just replace "Void" with "Wildfire".
Void is a horrible day 1 lynch from a pure playstyle and mindset perspective. We get nothing and it's a crapshot. If we lynch him and he's scum it's more we got lucky then we caught scum. We need a lot of info to even try to begin to decipher him which we just don't have today.
HookerPunch: Generic, you seem to be familiar with Natirasha... how is his play here holding up against past games? I don't like all this self-meta talk.
Arnnaria sure looks defensive but anyone would be after such hard tunneling from Nerd. That probably makes Nerd Townie(s), I don't see any logic in pushing so hard so quickly as scum.
I agree that without getting deep into the wine, going after a player that hard early seems like a town behavior, but why point out Arn's defensiveness only to hand wave it away as how "anyone would react" immediately afterward?
In other news, I'm not feeling good about Wildfire. In #116 he's apologetic to Void about his saying that he would post content later and unvotes him, but still takes issue with the RVS vote/unvote after the unvote. Wild, if you still have concerns about Void's play, why unvote him? You were the only vote on him so he's not like he's overly pressured at the moment.
Normally that would be a result of someone else seeming more scummy to you and moving your vote there, but your reads on both Arn and Rhanderic basically just sat the fence. It looks self-conscious about where your vote is, to me.
Has anyone played with Hooker before? I'm extremely unimpressed with the active-lurking quality of most of his(?) posts, and struggling to make sense particularly of #163
DCIII: I am slightly paranoid about him because meta. He let off the accelerator awfully quick in regards to Dagaen, which is not what I'm used to from him. He tunneled pretty relentlessly in TMNT and Walking Dead.
Hang on a second. So I started to respond to this thinking I can see how DK might think that considering I pushed him pretty hard in both of those games but that I would also point out games like Futurama where I let go of my read on Idle Muse very quickly early (which was unfortunate because he ended up scum) and that there isn't a set amount of time that I push someone, it's really just based on how much I like their response or not... which he should know because I got off of him in both of the games he referenced.
But then I remembered that the game where I've tunneled the most is my only scumgame, Xymande - a game in which I basically just rode Rezombied all of Day 1 til his lynch and didn't come off that read like I did in both of the games DK referenced... and DK was in Xymande so I'm sure he hasn't forgotten that. So if he's trying to meta me and say that I tunnel as Town, why isn't he considering our most recent game together where I've tunneled more than any other was where I was scum?
I think Dkings is talking about my tendency in my previous game to answer questions directed at other players. It's something I'm actively trying not to do this game, as it brought down a lot of ire from the other players, and somewhat understandably so.
Compared to my previous two games, this one appears to be going quite a bit slower. Without the alignment-change mechanic of Industry or the Role Madness of Marvel 2 to drive discussion, people seem just to be picking at each other over tiny verbage slips or actions.
No one has yet done anything that gives me more than the slightest scum lean on them, and I'm not good enough at day 1 voteslinging to effectively motivate discussion with my vote, so for now I'm going to sit on it. Tomorrow morning I should have the time to give the thread another once-over and see if I can't form a more solid opinion on anyone.
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? I don't know where you got that I replace out a lot, Generic. I played ~40 games in 2013 and replaced out of exactly four, one of which was for reasons out of my control. The only reason I'm on the bad-list here is because of my mass flake over both here and mafiascum back in 2009.
If anyone wants to meta me, my mafiascum wiki page is updated through the end of 2013. I encourage anyone to check it out and come to the conclusions as they wish.
But, yes, Generic and I are fairly similar as players.
Alright, been drawing it out a lot lately as far as time between posts goes in my more recent games and its something I need to stop so I can better maintain focus on games.
But more on the subject of the game:
To start, I'll answer the question about my thoughts on the Arnaria/Reaching Nerd standoff. Arnaria's early posts could be taken one of two ways, a weak push setting up a wagon or gathering information about an unfamiliar player from those that have played with him (Daegan). The Generic head of the hydra was confident, maybe a little too so for an early part of the game, but Arnaria's reactions of dismissing the case as bad has me wondering.
Could be a towny folding under pressure, or could be scum, I need to go over the details again, but I am not seeing this as a scum/scum standoff. They are actively bashing each others credibility and drawing the attention of all the players in the game while doing so. They each have fringe interest in other players, and it might help if we could see a full town/scum list from each.
Also, while skimming through something caught my attention: Hooker Punch, when talk of Daegan/Kosakosa comes up, your first reaction put down is usually "Oh great, RVS material again," Why aren't you concerned about the reactions between the two instead of just sarcastically drawing credibility out of any discussion brought up about it?
Been thinking about the game a bit and I have a couple of questions mostly for Generic/Rhand and somewhat Dkings.
All of you went after Kosa to some degree based on his push of me. Kosa's reasoning was that what I did with a non-vote was similar to what Arn did. While I agree that Kosa's push was weak, and I did explain my lack of a vote, I found it a little interesting that nobody followed up on me. It seemed like you guys jumped to my defense by sticking on Kosa. Something just felt off with everything, and maybe you think Kosa is just trying to push a mislynch, but I have this feeling in my gut something else is going on.
I havent played with Dkings before, but I have played with Generic, and Rhand and I are familiar too. I could very easily see a conversation happening, either in the hydra chat or in the pre-game scum chat (assuming there was one) about who the ideal people to lynch or keep alive would be. If Generic and Rhand are scum, I believe I would be the #1 person to keep alive, because you both know about my inexperience, and I am sure the scum would want the weakest town players at the end.
So thats what has been bugging me. Why didnt anyone else come after me, why did you guys jump right on Kosa? Why is my gut telling me not to trust the hydra team right now?
For reference to the above post, here are the posts I am talking about:
Dkings - post 142 - "Kosa, I like your points about Bigtraine here, but you believe Arn is town. How is Bigtraine's behavior here really any different from Arn's behavior regarding Dagaen?"
Rhand - post 155 - "Why is not voting a lyncheable offence for Bigtraine and not for Arn?"
Generic - post 164 - "I back rhands issues with kosa because kosa's theory sucks. What's the lynch threshold, 7? I would expect scum to be eager to push arn into claim range. So In Actuality kosa comes across as trying to steer focus and create a scenario whereby arn is town, and bigtraine looks better for havig held off.
But then I don't remember bigtraine actually poiting this out himself, so that part is the bit that troubles me."
Rhand - post 169 - "Kosa, are you ignoring Bigtraine's reaction? Do you think his reasons for not voting make sense from a town perspective?"
Dkings - post 171 - "You didn't answer my question before: how is Bigtraine's behavior fundamentally different from Arn's? If anything, Arn looks worse to me for the self-conscious reasoning and vote after being called out on it, while Bigtraine gave you a fairly reasoned response and didn't succumb to the pressure to place a vote."
Like that most recent set of posts from BigTraine. Think he's very likely Town due to them. Do not think he's the type to feel confident enough to draw the spotlight on himself like that as scum or to take a contrarian stance on a player(s) who seems to be being town read more often than not right now. Interested in both Rhanderic and DK's response to him.
DCIII: I am slightly paranoid about him because meta. He let off the accelerator awfully quick in regards to Dagaen, which is not what I'm used to from him. He tunneled pretty relentlessly in TMNT and Walking Dead.
Hang on a second. So I started to respond to this thinking I can see how DK might think that considering I pushed him pretty hard in both of those games but that I would also point out games like Futurama where I let go of my read on Idle Muse very quickly early (which was unfortunate because he ended up scum) and that there isn't a set amount of time that I push someone, it's really just based on how much I like their response or not... which he should know because I got off of him in both of the games he referenced.
But then I remembered that the game where I've tunneled the most is my only scumgame, Xymande - a game in which I basically just rode Rezombied all of Day 1 til his lynch and didn't come off that read like I did in both of the games DK referenced... and DK was in Xymande so I'm sure he hasn't forgotten that. So if he's trying to meta me and say that I tunnel as Town, why isn't he considering our most recent game together where I've tunneled more than any other was where I was scum?
So, what gives DK?
That's a fair point, I wasn't thinking about Xymande. I'm probably a lot more in tune with your tunneling in TMNT and Walking Dead because I was the recipient of the brunt of it. I didn't play in Futurama, but I did go back and verify your statement and, yes, you definitely backed off Idle Muse when he gave an answer you liked. Noted.
Been thinking about the game a bit and I have a couple of questions mostly for Generic/Rhand and somewhat Dkings.
All of you went after Kosa to some degree based on his push of me. Kosa's reasoning was that what I did with a non-vote was similar to what Arn did. While I agree that Kosa's push was weak, and I did explain my lack of a vote, I found it a little interesting that nobody followed up on me. It seemed like you guys jumped to my defense by sticking on Kosa. Something just felt off with everything, and maybe you think Kosa is just trying to push a mislynch, but I have this feeling in my gut something else is going on.
I havent played with Dkings before, but I have played with Generic, and Rhand and I are familiar too. I could very easily see a conversation happening, either in the hydra chat or in the pre-game scum chat (assuming there was one) about who the ideal people to lynch or keep alive would be. If Generic and Rhand are scum, I believe I would be the #1 person to keep alive, because you both know about my inexperience, and I am sure the scum would want the weakest town players at the end.
So thats what has been bugging me. Why didnt anyone else come after me, why did you guys jump right on Kosa? Why is my gut telling me not to trust the hydra team right now?
For me, it basically comes down to this... you both essentially did the same thing, so why is Kosa pushing you while claiming the Arn wagon is bad? Also, Arn's response to the pressure from Rhanderic was full of self-consciousness while your response to Kosa was not.
Still a bit under the weather, but since I feel people are waiting on me I'll do my best to keep up.
@Vishamon: "Could you reference at least one specific game where he exhibits this type of flailing as experienced town? Seems odd to me with no meta knowledge."
The Legend of Aang. Specifically the slapfight that occurs between Cyouni and I.
Town/Scum List because Shockwave Requested it
Scum
Dagaen - opinions expressed
Wildfire - I just don't like the early aggression and apologetic tone. He seems to have been skimming the surface after that and that reads suspicious to me.
Lean Scum
Bigtraine - Won't commit to my wagon.
HookerPunch - Confrontational. I also don't like the "bluff" comment.
Neutral (Not enough info)
Vishamon
Shockwave07
Void
Lean Town
Kosakosa - Kosa makes sense to me and not just because he's defending me.
Town
ReachingNerd - opinions expressed
DCIII - Scumhunting, asking good questions
Dkingsland967 - Scumhunting, askign good questions
Arnnaria
You're correct, Arn, I have been somewhat skimming thus far after my initial faceplant. It's been a fairly busy week, for one. But also, I thrive on in-depth analysis and tend to fail when there's scarce pickings and I'm just not good at pressuring with my vote. The very early game is definitely my weakness at the moment.
On a deeper re-read, I'm not liking Arn as much. I'm sure he'll dismiss this as an OMGUS, but in comparing his slapfight with Reaching to the one he had with Karn in Industry, he's a lot quicker to find reasons to undermine Reaching's reads. The Karn interaction was a lot of back and forth, but none of this "Well, you're bad at reading me" or "You tend to tunnel" mudslinging that cropped up quickly in this exchange. He's also been extremely self-conscious, referencing several previous games (both when asked and, more importantly, volunteering them unasked) as examples of his behavior.
Other people I'm not liking at the moment:
KosaKosa - Several self-conscious moments including citing Seppel's rules
HookerPunch - "Call my bluff" rubs me the wrong way, especially when he acknowledges that bluffs means misrepping facts.
I'll try to get a deeper re-read in on these two, but at the moment I am warming up to the Arn wagon. I'll try to assemble a fully coherent and post-referential argument to accompany my vote if I decide that's where it's going.
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It's not a U-turn, it's a revision in light of facts. In comparing Arn by memory to Industry, it seemed similar, but upon actually re-reading Industry and doing a side-by-side comparison, the difference is pretty stark. Industry reads like Arn is flustered. His interaction with you here It'reads like he's panicking. It's also taken him from bottom of the town-leans to the scum-leans, that's hardly a complete 180.
And yeah, I'm self-conscious. I started this game hoping to play an improved game over my terribleness day one of my previous two games, only to miss something critical in my very first post and draw ire because of it, and now I'm doubting my every post.
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@Generic Hand
I'm not convinced of Arn's alignment. Everything I have seem is normal from Arn. If anything, since Arn has been open about his play, it shows more of a Town mindset than anything else. I could be wrong, but I don't believe that I am.
@wildfire
What is wrong with having an RVS in your first post? I would be more understanding if I left it at that RVS vote and nothing else. The RVS was simple. Killjoy and I are good friends IRL and he hasn't been plying Mafia for almost a year if not longer. So, yes, I will take my time to RVS someone for *****s and giggles regardless of when my first post comes.
I also agree with whomever mentioned your suspicion of me despite your unvote. If you're still suspicious, then it is better to leave the vote on me for pressure reasons. The fact that you did unvote me shows that your mindset is not that of a Townie. You know that I am Town, but thought you could try to stick me with what happened in Modifa 8. It was a very weak attempt and was easy to read through and find your mindset.
The question was not "Why RVS", but rather "Why RVS and then unvote".
It's not a major suspicion, just a question. Also, if MM8 taught me anything, it's not to try to paint you as scum just because of the fact that you're ignoring a game - remember how well that worked out for me?
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On a deeper re-read, I'm not liking Arn as much. I'm sure he'll dismiss this as an OMGUS, but in comparing his slapfight with Reaching to the one he had with Karn in Industry, he's a lot quicker to find reasons to undermine Reaching's reads. The Karn interaction was a lot of back and forth, but none of this "Well, you're bad at reading me" or "You tend to tunnel" mudslinging that cropped up quickly in this exchange. He's also been extremely self-conscious, referencing several previous games (both when asked and, more importantly, volunteering them unasked) as examples of his behavior.
Where does the slap fight between Karn and Arn start in Industry (roughly)? I started reading it up didn't get up to that point yet. I assume they were both town D1 in that one?
Also, you (Wildfire) seemed WAY more active early in that than this game. Were you scum or town D1 there?
I don't know to express this correctly, but I have this nasty feeling that Arn is now stuck in this attack on me, because he overcommited his defence during confrontation with Generhand. He looks very self-conscious about maintaining his opinion on me, just as he was very self-conscious about his vote timing. He is still looking defensive. Dammit, not sure how to put it in words, it's just a feeling I have.
His reads look quite similar to mine, that's a bit troubling.
I'm pretty sure HookerPunch is acting scummy on purpose.
Not a fan of Wildfire's #206. He changed opinion on Arnnaria - ok, I'm fine with that. But I didn't like the "warming up" thing. Shows deep concern about current vote situation.
It's no secret that I respect Generic's opinion immensely. He's the one who's been leading the push on Arn. He's the one who questioned me when I put Arn in my town lean pile. His prodding is the reason I took the time to do a deeper delve to confirm or rebuke my initial impression. So when I say warming up, that's what I mean. I'm still not sold enough to commit a vote, especially a vote that would bring him into claim range, but the idea is no longer off the table in my mind.
Where does the slap fight between Karn and Arn start in Industry (roughly)? I started reading it up didn't get up to that point yet. I assume they were both town D1 in that one?
Also, you (Wildfire) seemed WAY more active early in that than this game. Were you scum or town D1 there?
I think it started on page 7 or 8. I'll search for it again tomorrow and post links. They were both town that day.
And yeah, I was scum day 1 of Industry.
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Still a bit under the weather, but since I feel people are waiting on me I'll do my best to keep up.
@Vishamon: "Could you reference at least one specific game where he exhibits this type of flailing as experienced town? Seems odd to me with no meta knowledge."
The Legend of Aang. Specifically the slapfight that occurs between Cyouni and I.
Please don't answer questions that aren't directed to you.
I don't know to express this correctly, but I have this nasty feeling that Arn is now stuck in this attack on me, because he overcommited his defence during confrontation with Generhand. He looks very self-conscious about maintaining his opinion on me, just as he was very self-conscious about his vote timing. He is still looking defensive. Dammit, not sure how to put it in words, it's just a feeling I have.
His reads look quite similar to mine, that's a bit troubling.
I'm pretty sure HookerPunch is acting scummy on purpose.
Not a fan of Wildfire's #206. He changed opinion on Arnnaria - ok, I'm fine with that. But I didn't like the "warming up" thing. Shows deep concern about current vote situation.
The point about Arn seeming locked into needing to read you as scum is similar to what I thought when I read his t/s list. It didn't offer anything current about what you've been doing, which has seemed much better to me, and it just feels like his play around you from his initial vote to where it is now has been more influenced by what he thinks expectations will be on his position as opposed to pressing authentically.
He also made a point to specify that he's offering his T/S list because it was requested that he do so by Shock, rather than on his own. Something about that reads self-conscious to me as well, like he's worried someone is going to ask him why he's offering those reads.
One other point I didn't like looking back is how he went out of his way to stress that once he flips Town that no one should focus on Reaching Nerd for tunneling him. One because it seems like some reverse psychology stuff to get Reaching to think more favorably of him, and also because being so vocal about thinking someone who is tunneling you is Town, especially someone as likely as hard to read as a Generic/Rhand merge also seems off.
@DK - I dunno. You just got burned by metaing me as Town in our last game. Your not thinking about that game/still trying to make the same assumption about my meta as you did previously seems off to me. I know when I was burned by Meg in Futurama that made an impression on me.
So the only defence I have seen of why the Arnnaria wagon is a bad wagon remains I know his posting has been terribad, but that's arn'.
Nowhere near good enough.
Discussed it with Rhand and we still want to see that lynch go through. It's been handed to us as ownership of the outcome it seems, as everyone outside the two actually on the wagon with us keeps saying it's our wagon, so let's see one of two things:
Either you are joining the wagon, in which case I want a reason why.
Or you aren't joining the wagon, in which case I want a reason why arn is town AND I want the wagon you hi I is better with a reason.
As per my last post on this subject: I'm intending to join the wagon. My initial assessment of Arn as town based on meta has not held up to an in-depth meta analysis. I've got another busy week going on, but hopefully Thursday I can take the time to fully cross-reference and detail where the differences between his fight here and his fight in Industry are, as well as posts here that have made me question.
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At the moment, I'm not 100%, which is why I haven't voted him yet. I'm leaning that direction, however.
My issues with him are:
-His fight with Reaching has had much more in the way of personal/credibility attacks than his other town-on-town fights
-He has a high level of self awareness and has volunteered games where he's done similar things
I'd just like another chance to do an in-depth read and make sure that his actions do indeed fit the above, and I'm not just forcing my recollection into that. I'd also like to check for other possible tells.
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I've got another busy week going on, but hopefully Thursday I can take the time to fully cross-reference and detail where the differences between his fight here and his fight in Industry are, as well as posts here that have made me question.
I am still interested to see your analysis of the difference here vs. Industry for Arn. Looking forward to see your conclusions.
I'm much less impressed by the two posts of bigtraine than you appear to be, and there's something about the way you endorsed them that read as off to me - I'll revisit this in the morning to see if fresh eyes helps me put my finger on exactly what that was.
I'm much less impressed by the two posts of bigtraine than you appear to be, and there's something about the way you endorsed them that read as off to me - I'll revisit this in the morning to see if fresh eyes helps me put my finger on exactly what that was.
Read WWII mafia if you get a chance or just ISO Bigtraine in it. That is his only completed game to my knowledge. He's still very green and I don't see him as the type of player who would be bold enough to shift the focus of the conversation to himself like he did this game if he were scum. His willingness to do that while also questioning DK and Rhanderic - two players who most seem to be reading favorably - makes me think that he's genuinely curious and isn't worried about the focus his play might draw. From him specifically, I think it's a Town tell.
* He's too confident of his Wildfire read: instead of questioning why Wildfire unvoted, he says stuff like "your mindset is not that of a Townie", "You know that I am Town", "it was easy to read through and find your mindset".
No doubt at all in Void's mind about Wildfire's alignment, which is suspicious.
~ R
Meh, Void says stuff like this all the time. It's almost a polar opposite from his polite, appeasing tone in Walking Dead.
I did ask people to offer the better alternative wagon of the arn wagon isn't a good one.
Regarding other players:
- Still wary of HookerPunch
- Still not interested in lynching Wildfire. The push on him from Arn reeks of counterwagon.
- Vishamon's lurking is odd... he/she appears to be paying attention to the game and the posts don't read like they are coming from a newb, but there has been very little content offered.
He's still very green and I don't see him as the type of player who would be bold enough to shift the focus of the conversation to himself like he did this game if he were scum. His willingness to do that while also questioning DK and Rhanderic - two players who most seem to be reading favorably - makes me think that he's genuinely curious and isn't worried about the focus his play might draw. From him specifically, I think it's a Town tell.
I agree with this, I can't find scum motivation in drawing that much early attention. The same thing goes for Dagaen's "RQS" thing early on, which is another red flag for me regarding Arn as he keeps clinging to it.
This games moves as fast as someone who lost all the limbs and has to crawl through the entire map on his tummy.
I don't see anyone defending Arnnaria, but somehow nobody dares to vote him. If I read this correctly, both Bigtraine and Wildfire have Arnnaria as one of the primary suspects. Why aren't you voting him then?
As I've said a couple of times, I'm waiting until I have enough time to do a complete read and compare with Industry. Unfortunately, I've been exceptionally busy lately, but hopefully I'll have an opening this afternoon.
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I had a chance to read through Dr. P and Industry for Arn. I wasn't able to tell a notable difference in either of them. Maybe I am poor at reading into it, but Arn sounded the same in both to me, but since he was town in one and scum in the other I guess that ends up being null. I was hoping it would sway me one way or another.
I still want to get Wildfire's read on the games, see if there is something I missed.
With that being said, I am willing to commit my vote to Arn. There are several others that I am watching and/or are giving me "off" vibes, but nothing has made Arn seem more likely to be town to me since my previous post about him and he is my #1 scumspect (and I agree that I need to help pick up the pace of the game).
DCIII: I am slightly paranoid about him because meta. He let off the accelerator awfully quick in regards to Dagaen, which is not what I'm used to from him. He tunneled pretty relentlessly in TMNT and Walking Dead.
Wildfire: For the people who are looking at him, he is a bad D1 lynch. In X-Men 2 he was town, but was always under the gun because of textbook newbscum tells (reads changing on a dime, lacking conviction, etc) and constantly Garcia'ing people. This is a quote from a different game that is applicable here, just replace "Void" with "Wildfire".
HookerPunch: Generic, you seem to be familiar with Natirasha... how is his play here holding up against past games? I don't like all this self-meta talk.
Could you reference at least one specific game where he exhibits this type of flailing as experienced town? Seems odd to me with no meta knowledge.
I agree that without getting deep into the wine, going after a player that hard early seems like a town behavior, but why point out Arn's defensiveness only to hand wave it away as how "anyone would react" immediately afterward?
/barn re: self conciousness
Hang on a second. So I started to respond to this thinking I can see how DK might think that considering I pushed him pretty hard in both of those games but that I would also point out games like Futurama where I let go of my read on Idle Muse very quickly early (which was unfortunate because he ended up scum) and that there isn't a set amount of time that I push someone, it's really just based on how much I like their response or not... which he should know because I got off of him in both of the games he referenced.
But then I remembered that the game where I've tunneled the most is my only scumgame, Xymande - a game in which I basically just rode Rezombied all of Day 1 til his lynch and didn't come off that read like I did in both of the games DK referenced... and DK was in Xymande so I'm sure he hasn't forgotten that. So if he's trying to meta me and say that I tunnel as Town, why isn't he considering our most recent game together where I've tunneled more than any other was where I was scum?
So, what gives DK?
Town Win % = 75%
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Compared to my previous two games, this one appears to be going quite a bit slower. Without the alignment-change mechanic of Industry or the Role Madness of Marvel 2 to drive discussion, people seem just to be picking at each other over tiny verbage slips or actions.
No one has yet done anything that gives me more than the slightest scum lean on them, and I'm not good enough at day 1 voteslinging to effectively motivate discussion with my vote, so for now I'm going to sit on it. Tomorrow morning I should have the time to give the thread another once-over and see if I can't form a more solid opinion on anyone.
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If anyone wants to meta me, my mafiascum wiki page is updated through the end of 2013. I encourage anyone to check it out and come to the conclusions as they wish.
But, yes, Generic and I are fairly similar as players.
Either way, we're all gonna burn
But more on the subject of the game:
To start, I'll answer the question about my thoughts on the Arnaria/Reaching Nerd standoff. Arnaria's early posts could be taken one of two ways, a weak push setting up a wagon or gathering information about an unfamiliar player from those that have played with him (Daegan). The Generic head of the hydra was confident, maybe a little too so for an early part of the game, but Arnaria's reactions of dismissing the case as bad has me wondering.
Could be a towny folding under pressure, or could be scum, I need to go over the details again, but I am not seeing this as a scum/scum standoff. They are actively bashing each others credibility and drawing the attention of all the players in the game while doing so. They each have fringe interest in other players, and it might help if we could see a full town/scum list from each.
Also, while skimming through something caught my attention: Hooker Punch, when talk of Daegan/Kosakosa comes up, your first reaction put down is usually "Oh great, RVS material again," Why aren't you concerned about the reactions between the two instead of just sarcastically drawing credibility out of any discussion brought up about it?
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Either way, we're all gonna burn
Either way, we're all gonna burn
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typically a bluff indicates you're misrepresenting the facts...
All of you went after Kosa to some degree based on his push of me. Kosa's reasoning was that what I did with a non-vote was similar to what Arn did. While I agree that Kosa's push was weak, and I did explain my lack of a vote, I found it a little interesting that nobody followed up on me. It seemed like you guys jumped to my defense by sticking on Kosa. Something just felt off with everything, and maybe you think Kosa is just trying to push a mislynch, but I have this feeling in my gut something else is going on.
I havent played with Dkings before, but I have played with Generic, and Rhand and I are familiar too. I could very easily see a conversation happening, either in the hydra chat or in the pre-game scum chat (assuming there was one) about who the ideal people to lynch or keep alive would be. If Generic and Rhand are scum, I believe I would be the #1 person to keep alive, because you both know about my inexperience, and I am sure the scum would want the weakest town players at the end.
So thats what has been bugging me. Why didnt anyone else come after me, why did you guys jump right on Kosa? Why is my gut telling me not to trust the hydra team right now?
Dkings - post 142 - "Kosa, I like your points about Bigtraine here, but you believe Arn is town. How is Bigtraine's behavior here really any different from Arn's behavior regarding Dagaen?"
Rhand - post 155 - "Why is not voting a lyncheable offence for Bigtraine and not for Arn?"
Generic - post 164 - "I back rhands issues with kosa because kosa's theory sucks. What's the lynch threshold, 7? I would expect scum to be eager to push arn into claim range. So In Actuality kosa comes across as trying to steer focus and create a scenario whereby arn is town, and bigtraine looks better for havig held off.
But then I don't remember bigtraine actually poiting this out himself, so that part is the bit that troubles me."
Rhand - post 169 - "Kosa, are you ignoring Bigtraine's reaction? Do you think his reasons for not voting make sense from a town perspective?"
Dkings - post 171 - "You didn't answer my question before: how is Bigtraine's behavior fundamentally different from Arn's? If anything, Arn looks worse to me for the self-conscious reasoning and vote after being called out on it, while Bigtraine gave you a fairly reasoned response and didn't succumb to the pressure to place a vote."
Like that most recent set of posts from BigTraine. Think he's very likely Town due to them. Do not think he's the type to feel confident enough to draw the spotlight on himself like that as scum or to take a contrarian stance on a player(s) who seems to be being town read more often than not right now. Interested in both Rhanderic and DK's response to him.
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
That is a correct statement, yes.
Either way, we're all gonna burn
That's a fair point, I wasn't thinking about Xymande. I'm probably a lot more in tune with your tunneling in TMNT and Walking Dead because I was the recipient of the brunt of it. I didn't play in Futurama, but I did go back and verify your statement and, yes, you definitely backed off Idle Muse when he gave an answer you liked. Noted.
For me, it basically comes down to this... you both essentially did the same thing, so why is Kosa pushing you while claiming the Arn wagon is bad? Also, Arn's response to the pressure from Rhanderic was full of self-consciousness while your response to Kosa was not.
@Vishamon: "Could you reference at least one specific game where he exhibits this type of flailing as experienced town? Seems odd to me with no meta knowledge."
The Legend of Aang. Specifically the slapfight that occurs between Cyouni and I.
Town/Scum List because Shockwave Requested it
Scum
Dagaen - opinions expressed
Wildfire - I just don't like the early aggression and apologetic tone. He seems to have been skimming the surface after that and that reads suspicious to me.
Lean Scum
Bigtraine - Won't commit to my wagon.
HookerPunch - Confrontational. I also don't like the "bluff" comment.
Neutral (Not enough info)
Vishamon
Shockwave07
Void
Lean Town
Kosakosa - Kosa makes sense to me and not just because he's defending me.
Town
ReachingNerd - opinions expressed
DCIII - Scumhunting, asking good questions
Dkingsland967 - Scumhunting, askign good questions
Arnnaria
P.S. - Is multiquote working?
On a deeper re-read, I'm not liking Arn as much. I'm sure he'll dismiss this as an OMGUS, but in comparing his slapfight with Reaching to the one he had with Karn in Industry, he's a lot quicker to find reasons to undermine Reaching's reads. The Karn interaction was a lot of back and forth, but none of this "Well, you're bad at reading me" or "You tend to tunnel" mudslinging that cropped up quickly in this exchange. He's also been extremely self-conscious, referencing several previous games (both when asked and, more importantly, volunteering them unasked) as examples of his behavior.
Other people I'm not liking at the moment:
KosaKosa - Several self-conscious moments including citing Seppel's rules
HookerPunch - "Call my bluff" rubs me the wrong way, especially when he acknowledges that bluffs means misrepping facts.
I'll try to get a deeper re-read in on these two, but at the moment I am warming up to the Arn wagon. I'll try to assemble a fully coherent and post-referential argument to accompany my vote if I decide that's where it's going.
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And yeah, I'm self-conscious. I started this game hoping to play an improved game over my terribleness day one of my previous two games, only to miss something critical in my very first post and draw ire because of it, and now I'm doubting my every post.
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I'm not convinced of Arn's alignment. Everything I have seem is normal from Arn. If anything, since Arn has been open about his play, it shows more of a Town mindset than anything else. I could be wrong, but I don't believe that I am.
@wildfire
What is wrong with having an RVS in your first post? I would be more understanding if I left it at that RVS vote and nothing else. The RVS was simple. Killjoy and I are good friends IRL and he hasn't been plying Mafia for almost a year if not longer. So, yes, I will take my time to RVS someone for *****s and giggles regardless of when my first post comes.
I also agree with whomever mentioned your suspicion of me despite your unvote. If you're still suspicious, then it is better to leave the vote on me for pressure reasons. The fact that you did unvote me shows that your mindset is not that of a Townie. You know that I am Town, but thought you could try to stick me with what happened in Modifa 8. It was a very weak attempt and was easy to read through and find your mindset.
Vote: Wildfire
It's not a major suspicion, just a question. Also, if MM8 taught me anything, it's not to try to paint you as scum just because of the fact that you're ignoring a game - remember how well that worked out for me?
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Where does the slap fight between Karn and Arn start in Industry (roughly)? I started reading it up didn't get up to that point yet. I assume they were both town D1 in that one?
Also, you (Wildfire) seemed WAY more active early in that than this game. Were you scum or town D1 there?
Either way, we're all gonna burn
1st: It's troubling that I'm town? Who's committing to their early on reads now...
2nd: What would be the purpose of that?
It's no secret that I respect Generic's opinion immensely. He's the one who's been leading the push on Arn. He's the one who questioned me when I put Arn in my town lean pile. His prodding is the reason I took the time to do a deeper delve to confirm or rebuke my initial impression. So when I say warming up, that's what I mean. I'm still not sold enough to commit a vote, especially a vote that would bring him into claim range, but the idea is no longer off the table in my mind.
I think it started on page 7 or 8. I'll search for it again tomorrow and post links. They were both town that day.
And yeah, I was scum day 1 of Industry.
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so, what are you misrepresenting, then?
Please don't answer questions that aren't directed to you.
not across pages.
The point about Arn seeming locked into needing to read you as scum is similar to what I thought when I read his t/s list. It didn't offer anything current about what you've been doing, which has seemed much better to me, and it just feels like his play around you from his initial vote to where it is now has been more influenced by what he thinks expectations will be on his position as opposed to pressing authentically.
He also made a point to specify that he's offering his T/S list because it was requested that he do so by Shock, rather than on his own. Something about that reads self-conscious to me as well, like he's worried someone is going to ask him why he's offering those reads.
One other point I didn't like looking back is how he went out of his way to stress that once he flips Town that no one should focus on Reaching Nerd for tunneling him. One because it seems like some reverse psychology stuff to get Reaching to think more favorably of him, and also because being so vocal about thinking someone who is tunneling you is Town, especially someone as likely as hard to read as a Generic/Rhand merge also seems off.
I'm happy with my vote there.
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@DK - I dunno. You just got burned by metaing me as Town in our last game. Your not thinking about that game/still trying to make the same assumption about my meta as you did previously seems off to me. I know when I was burned by Meg in Futurama that made an impression on me.
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Some other thoughts:
@Vish - can you elaborate on "is ugh"?
Also agree with Dagaen that Hooker seems to be attempting a "too scummy to be scum" kind of thing. Not sold there.
@Void - Killjoy isn't in this game... your RVS vote was on me. Can you clarify?
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
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As per my last post on this subject: I'm intending to join the wagon. My initial assessment of Arn as town based on meta has not held up to an in-depth meta analysis. I've got another busy week going on, but hopefully Thursday I can take the time to fully cross-reference and detail where the differences between his fight here and his fight in Industry are, as well as posts here that have made me question.
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My issues with him are:
-His fight with Reaching has had much more in the way of personal/credibility attacks than his other town-on-town fights
-He has a high level of self awareness and has volunteered games where he's done similar things
I'd just like another chance to do an in-depth read and make sure that his actions do indeed fit the above, and I'm not just forcing my recollection into that. I'd also like to check for other possible tells.
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Also good info to have.
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I don't know about "everyone", but I'm definitely trying to make sure I have a solid case before committing that vote to you.
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Or you're waiting for someone to put me in claim range so you don't have to get your own hands dirty.
Vote Count 1.04
Arnnaria (4) - Reaching_Nerd (15), dkingsland967 (77), DCIII (81), Dagaen (140)
Reaching_Nerd (1) - Vishamon (25)
HookerPunch (1) - HookerPunch (50)
Dagaen (1) - Arnnaria (71)
Bigtraine (1) - Kosakosa (134)
Wildfire (1) - Void (209)
Not Voting: Shockwave07, Bigtraine, Wildfire393 (116)
With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch!
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No one else seems to be on the edge at the moment, so that hardly applies. Also, it's not like I'm hammering here.
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I am still interested to see your analysis of the difference here vs. Industry for Arn. Looking forward to see your conclusions.
I wannna wagon Void.
Either way, we're all gonna burn
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
I'm much less impressed by the two posts of bigtraine than you appear to be, and there's something about the way you endorsed them that read as off to me - I'll revisit this in the morning to see if fresh eyes helps me put my finger on exactly what that was.
Read WWII mafia if you get a chance or just ISO Bigtraine in it. That is his only completed game to my knowledge. He's still very green and I don't see him as the type of player who would be bold enough to shift the focus of the conversation to himself like he did this game if he were scum. His willingness to do that while also questioning DK and Rhanderic - two players who most seem to be reading favorably - makes me think that he's genuinely curious and isn't worried about the focus his play might draw. From him specifically, I think it's a Town tell.
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
Meh, Void says stuff like this all the time. It's almost a polar opposite from his polite, appeasing tone in Walking Dead.
Regarding other players:
- Still wary of HookerPunch
- Still not interested in lynching Wildfire. The push on him from Arn reeks of counterwagon.
- Vishamon's lurking is odd... he/she appears to be paying attention to the game and the posts don't read like they are coming from a newb, but there has been very little content offered.
Reasons?
I agree with this, I can't find scum motivation in drawing that much early attention. The same thing goes for Dagaen's "RQS" thing early on, which is another red flag for me regarding Arn as he keeps clinging to it.
The deadline for Day 1 will be 10:00 AM EDT on Tuesday, April 15th. If there is not a lynch at that time, the Day will end with No Lynch.
If you have any questions or concerns about this, please feel free to reach out to me by PM.
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As I've said a couple of times, I'm waiting until I have enough time to do a complete read and compare with Industry. Unfortunately, I've been exceptionally busy lately, but hopefully I'll have an opening this afternoon.
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I still want to get Wildfire's read on the games, see if there is something I missed.
With that being said, I am willing to commit my vote to Arn. There are several others that I am watching and/or are giving me "off" vibes, but nothing has made Arn seem more likely to be town to me since my previous post about him and he is my #1 scumspect (and I agree that I need to help pick up the pace of the game).
Vote Arnnaria
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