EBWODP: I meant to add that Fulcrum gets a town-read from me for the question to Farn about his reads on me. I see him trying to associate two people together as possible scum. Good scum hunting method.
That sounds like something you should be scumreading me for.
How was Killjoy's post self conscious?
He showed a small yet noticeable concern for Seppel saying he was faking, even though Seppel said he SEEMS like he was faking, thus showing a worry that someone has caught onto him and wants to dissolve the situation.
Self Conscience and then tries to go after sepple for his reads. Scummy.
I'll let you answer fulcrum's question before I explain why I wasn't being self-conscious.
As to trying to go after Seppel... I assume you're referring to my "terrible post" comment. Not the case. I meant it literally. For a first post in a game after RVS, where we're supposed to get information with which to read a person, that post was not up to snuff. It had reasonless accusations and reads. It provided SOME content, but nowhere near enough. That was my point.
No i was pointing out the fact you were basically stupefying his post by saying he thought there were 6-8 scums in the game. It shows no scumhunting and is rude at best.
I posted one post 13 posts before yours that analyzed everything up to that point. I hardly call that lurking. I call that "I work a lot and I will post when I can." Calling out my post count this early in the game, especially when Sepple has made one post with less content (not to mention iRebel) feels like mudslinging.
Unvote
Vote Fern
Also, the "inside joke" was posted to people who didn't know anything about it and spoke about your town game. Feels like you posted that for a different reason and are trying to cover it up by saying it was an inside joke.
That is absolutely not what he's doing. He mentioned your postcount. He did not "call it out" as you put it. You're strawmanning his argument pretty hard.
And what reason do you think he made the joke for?
You still don't have much content ITT. And you've ignored a few things. I wanna see answers from you soon.
I assume your reasons for this are the same as Prophys. So, the same question I threw at him: Why is mistaking GS as a hydra, and apperently knowing that prophy isn't one of them scummy? Where's the intent?
@Prophy: Can I have a full T/S list with reasons from you please? Thank you.
He said i was lurking because I posted one post, which had a hefty amount of content (or at least what i would consider content). That's not lurking. if i was lurking, i would have not posted anything (i.e: reads, observations, etc.)
AS for why i /barned proph: at the time it seemed like a good reason, but now that I re-read it: it feels like he is pushing a little that we should have known that the only person who expressed intrest in the hydra was him. He also assumes we know that GS is not a hydra.. which i didn't actually know until it was mentioned. I was wrong for barning proph on that one. I do apologize.
@Proph RE: calling people scummy and not voting them: i have my reasons for it. Try and see how people react to being called scummy. It can give you a lot of information. :] Why are you saying that, after i made two posts, that i call someone scummy, and then go after someone completely different. I did that in my first post /barning you (if you thought you made a good point, why are you calling me out for /barning it and voting your scumread?) and then I said why I was voting fern in my second. I don't see a pattern here..
I am okay with either proph or Fern for the lynch toDay.
I don't know how to feel about Seppel calling out other peoples observations on Proph instead of making his own observations. The laziness factors into it. He could be scum using other peoples wrong judgement to get proph mislynched, and saying he is lazy is a way to get out of having to seriously explain it.
He could also be town who saw good observations, and he is too busy to make his own.
Either way, very hard to read.
I'm keeping my vote on Fern for now. He needs to post some more.
#21 Antny: Agree with his question to Killjoy. I read those posts as reaction baiting.
#31 Killjoy: Don't like this post. Feels fence sitty. So you feel like GS isn't being helpful, but maybe that's just how he is, so you'll give him the benefit of the doubt, despite riding him hard early on? 2+2 =/= 5
Unvote; Vote: Killjoy
#33 GS: Why do you think Proph is scum?
#39 Proph : Why is it scum info-gathering to want to know whether or not he had played with GS before? Do you really believe there is no Town motivation for wanting to know the identity of someone that is deliberately cloaking themselves?
EWP: Somewhat answered.
#57: Not a fan of this post. @Arianrhod: Why did you address Apocalypse, but not Empire of Astare, which Proph also brought up? Going to echo the call for your + and - S on Proph.
Unvote, Vote: Arianrhod
#62, Killjoy: Why do you think it is likely you misinterpreted her motives? Elaborate please.
#64, Pizza Bro: How on earth do you get leanscum on Graduating Schoolgirl? It's pretty clear that GS was baiting reactions and it seems to have worked. You then admit, later that you might be reaching re: your comments about Antny using feminine pronouns could indicate outside conversation, then just /barn Proph in voting for Antny despite giving the impression you found others more scummy?
#67, Fernanth: I don't like your vote on Antny. There's no real content here either.
#73, Sneaky: I like this post. Good catch on the redirecting back to Proph.
#78, Fernanth: You're really reaching if that's what you considered "inside information" from Antny. Why do you think GS wasn't reaction baiting?
#85, Antny: What two games of Arianrhod's did you compare?
#95, Pizza Bro: Do you think Seppel's first post wasn't bad? if so, why?
#101, Arianrhod: If "reading anything into RVS is laughable", then how does the game progress past RVS? Do we not progress into the main Day activities when someone ends RVS because someone did something they felt is worth serious discussion?
I have no interest in lynching: ITF, Fulcrum, Sneaky, Proph, Antny
I need more information before considering a lynch: Killjoy, Fernanth
I'm not opposed to lynching: Pizza Bro
I want to lynch: Arianrhod
Null: Graduating School, Seppel
Any posts after 101 I'll get to later.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
EDH UUU Azami, Lady of Scrolls RRR Diaochan, Artful Beauty UR(U/R) Tibor, Lumia, & Melek (WIP)
I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
I'm still not seeing the Arianrhod case, and the wagon seems to have to come out very little.
Sunglasses Coolpizza's 95 is another bad post. In post 113 he suddenly retracts the case on me (now others have told him it's bad) Then he suddenly goes after Proph as soon Seppel lays down his vote (there's a touch of OMGUS mized in for good measure). More votes on Pizza please.
Upon thinking about this, you're right - I wanted to pounce on anyone to end RVS/that slow early game period we were in, and Antny's inconsistency + "lust for information" seemed like the best thing to jump on.
It doesn't make him scum, but I thought it was scummy/questionable at first glance.
Umm... Okay.
Quote from Proph »
Yeah man I want to declare killjoy town too but I'm hesitant to do so, since he backpedalled a bit on GS.
Why was his unvote of GS townie?
Just the way he did it, it looked natural. He didn't keep pushing it or abruptly back off, and I can see him reevaluating his initial read considering this is his first game in a while.
Quote from Proph »
Quote from ITF »
But town have a perfectly legitimate reason for asking; in order to better read the person. Especially given that Antny puts pressure on Killjoy in the same post, I can't see it as a real scumtell.
Why didn't you bring up Killjoy or Arianrod on this?
I don't know why I didn't bring up killjoy or Arian on this.
There had to have been some reason. Even if it's "you didn't notice them" or "you didn't feel like it".
It was just weird because that was half your case on Antny, and you didn't even mention Killjoy/Arian doing the exact same thing.
1. I'm reading Antny's stances thusfar as being weaker than Proph apparently is, which is why I saw his attack on Antny as scummy.
2. This confused me, because otherwise I've been liking Proph's play so far this game. I'm not the best at reading Proph, but his tone seems similar to MM as compared to his limited stint in Xymande.
Okay, but how does that make any sense with this:
Quote from Arianrhod »
I don't think you're scum. I just don't know what you are. I know you're a skilled enough player that if you were scum, you'd stay away from Antny, not engage him. You might've slipped, but that seems like a very rook mistake, and if that's the case, it'll come out eventually. For now, you're a null read in my book -- null in that you have +s and -s which are canceling each other out.
Cause it sounds like you're saying you think scumProph wouldn't attack Antny.
Quote from Arian »
I cannot defend myself and still scumhunt. I acknowledge that other people may be able to, but I'm frankly just not that good.
The thing is, you didn't get that much pressure until a bit later on, you're first few posts didn't really have any scumhunting.
Quote from Arian »
You say the whole "Strange" thing is semantics. I say the whole ******* game of mafia is semantics. Semantics matter, and if Sneaky is going to get a free pass on that basis, despite used charged language to put words in my mouth to get me lynched, then I'm ******* out. You'll get nothing more from me until I cool down and/or until Sneaky is lynched.
Take a step back. Sneaky gave a fine explanation for his language, and I'm not sure why you're overreacting to it.
Quote from Seppel »
Killjoy and Antny highlight some very abnormal behavior and explanations by Proph.
Vote Prophylaxis
I agree that the way he backed off Antny felt off, but other than that I've liked his posts.
Quote from Antny »
Sunglasses Coolpizza's 95 is another bad post. In post 113 he suddenly retracts the case on me (now others have told him it's bad) Then he suddenly goes after Proph as soon Seppel lays down his vote (there's a touch of OMGUS mized in for good measure). More votes on Pizza please.
I agree that part of 113 was really really bad, but I still feel stronger about Arianrhod. Once Arian got a little bit of pressure on him, he exploded.
@iRebel I did not see him baiting reactions. It is annoying how persistant he is on calling proph scum when proph didn't do anything at that point. Feels like he is just pushing a quick lynch and it's seriously scummy to me.
As for me taking back my read: Ant, would you rather me push a bad case on you? I took it back because others said it was bad. If i continued to push the case, I would have gotten ***** from people. Your use of the word suddenly is very odd seeing as i explained why I did what i did each time I did it. Don't try and say that I "suddenly" did something when I don't.. suddenly do something.
Suddenly would indicate i voted proph without an explanation.. seeing as i barned him before.
Stop pushing a case on me just because you don't "like" the way i play.
I'm not sure who Sunglasses currently is suspicious of. His posts are made up of nitpicking at details and asking general questions. I could definitely see this as active lurking. If Sunglasses would give me an idea of who he currently thinks is scum, I'd be much happier, but for now, a vote is warranted. Sunglasses' vote on me after I made my points about him seems like he was looking for an excuse to get his vote off Antny.
Unvote
Vote SunglassesCoolPizza
Sorry for the short post. I'll probably make another post later tonight.
Feranath: I dislike repeating myself, so let's try this one more time. What does this mean? Your thoughts on SunglassesCoolPizza would also be appreciated.
Allow me to introduce myself. I am Feranath. I am called ro3 on certain parts of the internet, and I like that name, so I use it. Compared to Feranath, it's easier to type and easier to say, and I've grown accustomed to it. Feranath is the name I use for websites that have a little more roleplay to them such as a forum related to MTG. Call me whatever name you wish, but I'll be referring to myself as ro3.
I have played a single mafia game on this site: SEM 2. In that game, I (Oscar) was pretty much under scrutiny the entire game for any of my posts that involved me voting.
Essentially, that post was an inside joke for myself, and did not progress the game in any way.
SunglassesCoolPizza has made a single post in this thread. Lurking? Maybe. I think it's just a matter of when he has the time to make his posts, as he had just about the same content as 5 of my posts in one of his. Really, there is not too much to go off of with him.
Now Fulcrum, what I'm wondering about is why you didn't ask what my thoughts are on you. Well, I assume you avoided asking because you didn't want it to begin with, so I'll respect your wishes. Still, it's a little strange.
I posted one post 13 posts before yours that analyzed everything up to that point. I hardly call that lurking. I call that "I work a lot and I will post when I can." Calling out my post count this early in the game, especially when Sepple has made one post with less content (not to mention iRebel) feels like mudslinging.
Unvote
Vote Fern
Also, the "inside joke" was posted to people who didn't know anything about it and spoke about your town game. Feels like you posted that for a different reason and are trying to cover it up by saying it was an inside joke.
Please read through all of the bolded one more time, Sunglasses. Your reasons for thinking I am scum are based on a misunderstanding. As Killjoy states here:
That is absolutely not what he's doing. He mentioned your postcount. He did not "call it out" as you put it. You're strawmanning his argument pretty hard.
all I was doing was summing up my thoughts on you. Including your postcount was relevant in my post about you to make the point that I don't have a strong read either way. I even said that the reason you had such a low postcount was likely due to you not having as much time as others. I never said you were lurking. Rather, I said it was a possibility. You've taken my words and made them seem like I was attacking you.
If you still have reason to think I'm scum, I'd like to hear it. Misinterpreting my words is an honest mistake, but not something you can base a read off of.
I didn't post for one day during the weekend. Hardly "a while".
I wasn't so much referring to the amount of time as the amount of content.
Yes, take a look at the other two posts I made yesterday.
Again, I'm referring to the fact that of all the things that happened between the times you posted, you chose to make a point I'd already made on a player that was unlikely to respond.
My point, I suppose, is that with all that additional content ITT, you chose to respond to basically nothing for your first post back.
Relevent question though: What time zone are you in?
"I would like to hear you read of Arianrhod and what you think of the points Proph, ITF and myself made.
Not 100% sure what the second half means... I assume you're asking me to weigh the evidence you three have presented against Arian. If that's not what you meant, let me know.
And to be honest I haven't paid him much notice. His play just wasn't jumping out at me.
But after reading his posts, I believe he's town. And I believe this post:
I'll debate this in the theory thread postgame if you want, but I am firmly of the opinion that RVS is random bull***** and is completely meaningless.
I cannot defend myself and still scumhunt. I acknowledge that other people may be able to, but I'm frankly just not that good.
You say the whole "Strange" thing is semantics. I say the whole ******* game of mafia is semantics. Semantics matter, and if Sneaky is going to get a free pass on that basis, despite used charged language to put words in my mouth to get me lynched, then I'm ******* out. You'll get nothing more from me until I cool down and/or until Sneaky is lynched.
is the strongest evidence to support that. It reads as honest and sincere. He is rightously indignant in his denouncing of RVS, and his "strange" argument. His emotions are running high and he is frustrated because he's constantly on the defensive.
I can personally attest to having this exact mindset in... Vanilla 2 Mafia? I remember getting into it with Wheat. I think I even literally said "I can't scumhunt if I'm constantly trying to defend myself".
Then ignores my post and vote and instead talks about the sign-up thread and asks a redundant soft-ball question about a post that was already under scrutiny:
I went looking for the signups thread because I seem to remember amidst all of the standard pregame joshing that Generic + Proph = GS, which would now mean that that account is just Generic. However, the signups thread seems to have disappeared -- and it isn't in the "Old Signup Threads" subforum, either. If GS is Generic, then I would say that his play so far aligns roughly with what I would expect.
Killjoy, can you expand on #20, please -- specifically why you chose to end RVS at that point?
Here's another point. I feel like you're letting your reads color your judgement, though. IIRC, that was the first time any question of that type was asked. So, calling it redundant would be incorrect, as it didn't overlap any other questions. Also, it really wasn't a softball question. It reads as a serious, relevent question.
Finally, instead of just addressing Prop's remark that he was being cautious, Arianrhod doesn't stop there and also tries redirect attention back to Prop, claiming Proph was trying to offload pressure. Arianrhod suggests that Proph vote was "strange" because Proph had earlier stated he was disappointed he wasn't getting more votes. So Arianrhod takes Proph's joke/breadcrumb/whatever it was and tries it use it to invalidate Proph's point about him and stifle Proph's use if his vote. Arianrhod then finishes up by hiding behind a joke about how Proph is such a enigma.
-Shrug-. I'm always cautious early on, and you're fully aware of that, Proph. Antny is reading like low-hanging fruit to me, so I'm not sure why you're pushing him. #54 reads like you're trying to offload pressure away from you, which is especially odd since in #39 you state that you are "unhappy that you didn't get a 5th vote on you." You're reading and acting like an enigma wrapped in an Iso wrapped in a taco this game.
Confirm vote: Arianrhod
Here's your final point. I can see the redirecting thing. Not sure where he gets the low-hanging fruit thing, but I can see where he got the unloading pressure thing. I was questioning Proph a but back then, so I feel like that's a viable conclusion. As to the joke, IDK why people seem to think every joke has to cover something up. I feel like this 'joke' is only meant to show that he doesn't understand Proph's play.
Nice redirection. Instead of just answering my questions, you are nitpicking about semantics?
I never said you used the word "Strange". Why would I, every time I quoted your entire original post! Which I will again do in this post (see below).
Instead I used the word "Strange" to summarize the read of Prop you seem to be stating in you post: meaning how you found how you weren't "sure" about his motives, found it "odd" he was offloading pressure and thought he "an enigma" because of his actions. For all this "Strange" is fair shorthand.
Strange is a fair word to use in this instance. I don't feel like he's redirecting though. I feel like he's beginning to get frustrated at this point, so it's possible he's lashing out.
=====================================================================
Overall assessment: I don't feel like you're analysis is overall unfair, and so not telling of your alignment. I feel like you're tunneling a bit though because you read him as scummy, so you're not analyzing as objectively as you could be.
This post is useless. I understand Killjoy asking who GS was to get a better read on him, but speculating on it isn't going to do anything.
The question to Killjoy is obvious if you read his post; he saw something scummy so he ended RVS. Why else would someone end RVS?
Not really a 'point' per se but ITF calls the post useless because it was obvious why I ended RVS. But it occurs to me that that's not the question Arian asked me: He asked me why I chose to end RVS at that time.
@ITF: Is Arian's post #35 still useless given that he asked me why I ended RVS at that time, vs. just asking me why I ended RVS as is what you seem to have interpreted that question as?
Proph clearly doesn't see Antny as a soft target (and Antny isn't really playing like a soft target either). And even if Proph did, skilled players go after soft targets all the time. You're being really WIFOMy in this reason for being unsure on Proph and it feels really forced.
Vote Arianrhod
I want you to specifically say what is +s and -s for you on Proph.
Here's the next point.
And as I read it, some thoughts come to me. @ITF:You say Proph clearly doesn't see Antny as a soft target. What makes you say that? Also, you say he's being WIFOMy and it feels forced in the way he described his unsureness of Proph. I'm for sure not seeing the WIFOM, and I'm not sure where you saw forcedness. Can you enlighten me a little bit on those points?
I do like the +s, -s question. It's a good question.
===========================================================
Some unanswered questions here. I look forward to hearing the anwswers.
- He voted a non-player in RVS
- His tone (more like a slow start) feels different than his other games, where he locked onto someone early-game
- His joke seemed contrived
I'm convinced that Arian's alignment will come out in the wash, and I haven't heard back from Pizza yet so I'm leaving my vote on Arian.
This is a REALLY weak case. Like I said earlier, the vote on Kosa was a good starting point, but here it's basically the crux of his case. His second post is a gut read which Seppel countered, and his third is that his "enigma wrapped in an Iso wrapped in a taco was somehow forcefully inserted to... do something scummy, of which I'm not completely clear. @Prophy: In what ways can a fake joke == scummy intent? Are any of those reasons present in this game and why?
Regardless, there's almost no heft to this case.
I clamp down hard and don't let go. Usually that person flips scum (EtR in Pleasantville)
I analyze people's reactions to my pressure and interactions with the flipped guy, if the person I'm clamping down on flips scum.
And you say you always do this? Since when? I don't recall this type of play from you.
How come you don't use your vote to pressure GS into posting, then?
I have better things to do with my vote. Or rather I will very soon. I just need time to sit here and make the case.
Did you read my post?
To both of these: Yes. And the uselessness it was not apperent.
And I'll read it again, but I don't recall there being enough there for me to see why you saw him as so scummy at that point in the game.
Because I'm ignoring GS.
Ignoring him... when you don't know his alignment?
Killjoy and Antny highlight some very abnormal behavior and explanations by Proph.
Vote Prophylaxis
So the two people who are possibly scum together make some points about Prophy, then you vote him. That doesn't make sense.
Can I have a T/S list from you as well? Your reads are unclear.
No i was pointing out the fact you were basically stupefying his post by saying he thought there were 6-8 scums in the game. It shows no scumhunting and is rude at best.
Maybe it was a little rude. If Seppel requires an apology, he can ask for one.
But that statement was part of my distaste toward his first post. He just basically decided not to evaluate half the game. It annoyed me.
He said i was lurking because I posted one post, which had a hefty amount of content (or at least what i would consider content). That's not lurking. if i was lurking, i would have not posted anything (i.e: reads, observations, etc.)
AS for why i /barned proph: at the time it seemed like a good reason, but now that I re-read it: it feels like he is pushing a little that we should have known that the only person who expressed intrest in the hydra was him. He also assumes we know that GS is not a hydra.. which i didn't actually know until it was mentioned. I was wrong for barning proph on that one. I do apologize.
There was little enough in the post to make it a fair assumption. And he mentioned it in kind of a throwaway way. You massively overreacted. Why is someone thinking you're lurking (whether or not they're right) worthy of such a harsh reaction?
And as to the hydra thing... Ok.
One last question: how much mafia experience do you have?
#62, Killjoy: Why do you think it is likely you misinterpreted her motives? Elaborate please.
Because my initial thoughts on her motives were as I said in that post: I felt like it was just an incredibly bad scum move, because it just didn't occur to me that reaction baiting was a thing. I personally never do it, so I didn't remember that it was a thing in mafia. It just... didn't occur to me. Given that it IS a thing, and remembering back to when other people did it, then it's obvious in retrospect that she IS doing it. Knowing that prior to my vote would have affected my vote in that I would not have made it.
Ok so, I'm going to try to make a case tomorrow morning on Prophy. I believe I saw a mindset tell that I believe is very telling of alignment. For now I'm gonna take a break from the computer.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
My thoughts on everyone thusfar, now that I've taken a day and cooled off a bit:
Antny223 -- I feel the need to clarify my prior "low-hanging fruit" statement. I know that Antny is fairly new to the game. Despite this, he's not playing poorly by any stretch. Hell, I'd argue he's playing better than I am. His inexperience, however, is why I deemed him as low-hanging -- I figured that keeping an eye on him / who is pressuring him might yield an easy scum catch, since he would be easily pushed. Obviously the possibility of his being scum throws a slight wrench into that plan, but so far I've been liking how he's been playing this game. His tone is very open, and it reminds me how he read in Xymande. There's a sincereity to it which is hard to fake -- that he knows he's town, and he's not worried about it.
Feranath -- I don't have a very strong impression of this guy yet one way or the other. His posts leave a vague hint of tryhardiness in my mind, but that could be attributed to either town or scum mindset. It all depends on what kind of a player he is, and since I've never played with him before, I'm going to have to wait and see how my read evolves.
Prophylaxis -- I still say this reads like town!Proph. Proph is certainly good enough that he might just have the wool over my eyes, but, meh. I might be too close to the issue, though, since he's been my primary detractor this game. Objectively speaking, his "case" on me was very weak, and that does make him a strong suspect. I feel like Proph -wants- me to be scum (for whatever reason....personal satisfaction of reads, harbored resentment for having to replace out of Xymande, whatever....:P), and this desire may be coloring his read of me. That doesn't make him scum -- just misinformed town.
Seppel -- Seppel has been unusually quiet this game so far. No idea what that means, but I'm sure we'll find out in time, it being Seppel and all.
iRebel -- I'm not seeing any of the things that I saw in Pleasantville which led me to call him out as scum (correctly so, as it turned out). He has also been pretty quiet.
Sneakyhomonuculus -- I'm way too close to this one to offer any kind of objective thought. Unvote.
Graduating Schoolgirl -- If this is in fact Karn, then he's probably town. I say that because I would be willing to lynch GS based on what I've seen so far toDay, and usually however I'm reading Karn, his alignment is the opposite. I've pushed for his lynch enough times when he's actually town that I've learned better by now. If it's not Karn, then I'm right back to being fine with his lynch.
Fulcrum -- Smaller and fewer posts than in Pleasantville, but the overall tone and the questioning process seems to be the same, so she's probably town again.
ITF -- I've never played with this guy before, but all he's done so far is sheep the wagon on me, so that doesn't give me a very favorable impression. Do some other stuff, or at least link me to some of your other games.
SunglassesCoolpizza -- Questionmark. I had to do a search to verify that he's even been posting at all.
Killjoy -- I've liked his lines of questioning and his thought processes so far. No experience with him, but unlike ITF and Feranath, he's actually been producing good content.
tl;dr: Fine with pressure on Feranath, Sneaky, GS (conditionally), ITF, and Sunglasses. Everyone else is off-limits in my book at this time.
Yeah man I want to declare killjoy town too but I'm hesitant to do so, since he backpedalled a bit on GS.
So... here's where it all starts. Prophy said this a bit ago. But here's where my thoughts when I first saw it:
"Ah. He thinks I'm town, except for my early interactions with GS." ->
"Wait... did he ever ask me about that?" ->
"No he didn't. So, if he's actually trying to figure out his alignment... Why wouldn't he ask me about that? It's an obvious series of questions that someone would ask in the course of determining my alignment."->
"If he were town, he'd be trying to figure out my motives for backing off of GS when I did, but he's not."
So then I thought: Prophy isn't trying to declare me town. But maybe it's not me specifically... He's not looking for town at all. He's just looking for scum.
And I believe that's telling of his alignment. Because townies are constantly trying to figure out who are on their team. Scum don't need to because they know who the townies are. Vote Prophy.
I was hoping to get more to work off of with the T/S list I asked him for, but he decided not to give that.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
SunglassesCoolPizza has made a single post in this thread. Lurking? Maybe. I think it's just a matter of when he has the time to make his posts, as he had just about the same content as 5 of my posts in one of his. Really, there is not too much to go off of with him.
While that is all factually true, I actually wanted you to analyse the content of that post. Could you do that?
Now Fulcrum, what I'm wondering about is why you didn't ask what my thoughts are on you. Well, I assume you avoided asking because you didn't want it to begin with, so I'll respect your wishes. Still, it's a little strange.
And, you've lost me again. Why would I want your opinion on me, and how is not asking for it strange?
You haven't said anything about Arianrhod before now jumping on the bandwagon.
So talk, why have you decided to vote for him?
The "Strange" reasoning that he used to attack you was really bad and his subsequent post seemed far angrier than the situation called for. I was initially hoping to provoke an angry reaction out him with the naked vote and compare it to his reaction in post 105 (which, fyi, is why I haven't check in in a while). Beyond that, I agree with Proph's stance that Arianrhod feels different (he's less proactive then he was in Pleasantville) and the initial vote for Kosa was so safe it hurt. I also don't remember him having a problem with analyzing RVS when it was used against Gan_dan in Pleasantville, so his anger over it here is jarring.
Arainrhod: Why are all of your reads either town or null? Do you have any actual scumreads?
Not really a 'point' per se but ITF calls the post useless because it was obvious why I ended RVS. But it occurs to me that that's not the question Arian asked me: He asked me why I chose to end RVS at that time.
@ITF: Is Arian's post #35 still useless given that he asked me why I ended RVS at that time, vs. just asking me why I ended RVS as is what you seem to have interpreted that question as?
I guess I see the distinction you're making; Arianrhod may have been asking why you chose to end RVS then rather than wait a bit.
The thing is, he didn't follow it up. You gave the obvious answer of "I saw something scummy, so I ended RVS", and that was the end of it. I feel like Arianrhod would've asked you to clarify further if he was interested in the timing.
Quote from Arianrhod »
I don't think you're scum. I just don't know what you are. I know you're a skilled enough player that if you were scum, you'd stay away from Antny, not engage him. You might've slipped, but that seems like a very rook mistake, and if that's the case, it'll come out eventually. For now, you're a null read in my book -- null in that you have +s and -s which are canceling each other out.
Quote from Killjoy »
Here's the next point.
And as I read it, some thoughts come to me.
@ITF:You say Proph clearly doesn't see Antny as a soft target. What makes you say that? Also, you say he's being WIFOMy and it feels forced in the way he described his unsureness of Proph. I'm for sure not seeing the WIFOM, and I'm not sure where you saw forcedness. Can you enlighten me a little bit on those points?
The reason I said that Proph doesn't see Antny as a soft target was because Proph said as much in the previous post, and my own read that Antny looks like a reasonably experienced player. Looking back on it though, I'm less sure of this, at least in the sense that Proph "clearly" didn't see Antny as a soft target. Arianrhod's own read that Antny is new could have colored how he thought Proph saw Antny too. I don't think this changes my primary point here though.
For the WIFOM, as I read it, Arianrhod is saying that Proph may be town because he doesn't think Proph would go after a soft-target like Antny, that Proph wouldn't make a rooky mistake like that as scum. I say "WIFOM" because it's one of those "so obviously scummy that good scum would never do it" kinda things. The thing is, scum very often push wagons on softer targets (even good scum). It's a really silly reason to doubt your read on Proph.
I say "forced" because Proph had asked why Arianrhod didn't vote for him given his last post, and the reasoning for his doubt on Proph didn't look natural.
However
Quote from Killjoy »
But after reading his posts, I believe he's town. And I believe this post:
Quote from Arianrhod »
I'll debate this in the theory thread postgame if you want, but I am firmly of the opinion that RVS is random bull***** and is completely meaningless.
I cannot defend myself and still scumhunt. I acknowledge that other people may be able to, but I'm frankly just not that good.
You say the whole "Strange" thing is semantics. I say the whole ******* game of mafia is semantics. Semantics matter, and if Sneaky is going to get a free pass on that basis, despite used charged language to put words in my mouth to get me lynched, then I'm ******* out. You'll get nothing more from me until I cool down and/or until Sneaky is lynched.
is the strongest evidence to support that. It reads as honest and sincere. He is rightously indignant in his denouncing of RVS, and his "strange" argument. His emotions are running high and he is frustrated because he's constantly on the defensive.
You might be right here; I can see a lot of emotion, I just don't know if it's indignation or anger at being caught for stupid reasons. Once I'm a little less drunk, I need to look back at this.
On your thing on Proph... I'm going to wait for Proph to respond.
@Arianrhod though, can you answer this?
Quote from ITF »
Quote from Arianrhod »
1. I'm reading Antny's stances thusfar as being weaker than Proph apparently is, which is why I saw his attack on Antny as scummy.
2. This confused me, because otherwise I've been liking Proph's play so far this game. I'm not the best at reading Proph, but his tone seems similar to MM as compared to his limited stint in Xymande.
Okay, but how does that make any sense with this:
Quote from Arianrhod »
I don't think you're scum. I just don't know what you are. I know you're a skilled enough player that if you were scum, you'd stay away from Antny, not engage him. You might've slipped, but that seems like a very rook mistake, and if that's the case, it'll come out eventually. For now, you're a null read in my book -- null in that you have +s and -s which are canceling each other out.
Cause it sounds like you're saying you think scumProph wouldn't attack Antny.
@iRebel I did not see him baiting reactions. It is annoying how persistant he is on calling proph scum when proph didn't do anything at that point. Feels like he is just pushing a quick lynch and it's seriously scummy to me.
Why do you see it as pushing a quick lynch when GS did not lead with a claim, or provide any information? That's what I don't understand. What would you consider reaction baiting?
I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
This game is embarrassing. I am breaking my vow of silence because we need somebody to take control.
I'll start actually posting. I'm super busy these days so I can't do too much, but I'll start with explaining my original reads proclamation.
- Prophy didn't say hi to me. We talk a lot about mafia offsite and he has expressed to me multiple times that he was looking forward to playing a game together where we are both town. So, playing on this rapport I led with what I did, expecting SOMETHING out of him. He chose to ignore me, which is when I asked him if he was scum. Here's the thing: Proph knows that I can read him very well. He knows that if he gets into a fight or argument with me that I will win (I have won every time he's been scum and I've been town). There's also just going to be an element of disappointment from him—we spent a lot of time talking about being town together, and he isn't town this game. Here's the deal: If proph were town I would expect him to be spending time trying to probe me and figure out if I am town because he wants to actually play with me. But he did zero of this. This tells me that he doesn't need to probe me and doesn't want to fight me, because he knows that if he draws my attention into a fight, he will lose. Therefore, he's scum trying to ignore me so that he doesn't need to deal with me.
- Killjoy fell all over himself when voting me over the proph read. I can see two possible motivations behind this: The first is that Proph is his buddy and he's chainsawing me. The second is that he saw my posts as easy to jump on and made an opportunistic vote. Neither looks good, and it's very possible that both are true. I can see zero way that any reasonable human being could take my early game posts as serious, and therefore anybody who did has some ulterior motive for doing so, such as… being scum.
- Aryan Rod made a bad RVS vote, so he got lumped in as #3.
---
I'll be back either tonight or monday night with more content.
***Disclaimer***
The post above was c/p'd from a text document that I wrote when I was a little bit drunk. I didn't edit it at all.
- Prophy didn't say hi to me. We talk a lot about mafia offsite and he has expressed to me multiple times that he was looking forward to playing a game together where we are both town. So, playing on this rapport I led with what I did, expecting SOMETHING out of him. He chose to ignore me, which is when I asked him if he was scum. Here's the thing: Proph knows that I can read him very well. He knows that if he gets into a fight or argument with me that I will win (I have won every time he's been scum and I've been town). There's also just going to be an element of disappointment from him—we spent a lot of time talking about being town together, and he isn't town this game. Here's the deal: If proph were town I would expect him to be spending time trying to probe me and figure out if I am town because he wants to actually play with me. But he did zero of this. This tells me that he doesn't need to probe me and doesn't want to fight me, because he knows that if he draws my attention into a fight, he will lose. Therefore, he's scum trying to ignore me so that he doesn't need to deal with me.
I had a stretch there of work being crazy. That's done for now. I'll be able to do stuff tomorrow afternoonish. Although I have the most posts this game, so it's not really ME we need to hear from. But I have some stuff I wanna say.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
- Prophy didn't say hi to me. We talk a lot about mafia offsite and he has expressed to me multiple times that he was looking forward to playing a game together where we are both town. So, playing on this rapport I led with what I did, expecting SOMETHING out of him. He chose to ignore me, which is when I asked him if he was scum. Here's the thing: Proph knows that I can read him very well. He knows that if he gets into a fight or argument with me that I will win (I have won every time he's been scum and I've been town). There's also just going to be an element of disappointment from him—we spent a lot of time talking about being town together, and he isn't town this game. Here's the deal: If proph were town I would expect him to be spending time trying to probe me and figure out if I am town because he wants to actually play with me. But he did zero of this. This tells me that he doesn't need to probe me and doesn't want to fight me, because he knows that if he draws my attention into a fight, he will lose. Therefore, he's scum trying to ignore me so that he doesn't need to deal with me.
I had a stretch there of work being crazy. That's done for now. I'll be able to do stuff tomorrow afternoonish. Although I have the most posts this game, so it's not really ME we need to hear from. But I have some stuff I wanna say.
I'm reading Arianrhod's 105 over and over again... I'm mainly getting anger at being suspected for silly reasons, which I see from both town and scum. The RVS thing, and not being able to scum hunt while being suspected are under this. On the strange/semantics part, that could be indignation at Proph for not seeing his point on Sneaky, but I haven't seen Arianrhod try to explain that point further, which I would've expected if he were so dead set on it. His big post didn't really talk about Sneaky at all; instead he choose to back off.
@Seppel: Why'd your opinion of GS flip?
I do wanna see Proph's response to GS's point on him.
If you already called him out, I missed see it. Regardless, should we resign if someone says he will not post? Of course not, we should call him out, preferably with as many people as possible. At the moment, far too few people are doing this.
I haven't, really. My attentions are focused elsewhere. I'm not all that convinced that chasing ghosts who are trying to remain incorporeal is more productive than chasing ghosts disguised as humans right now, at any rate.
I don't think that's a correct representation of my posting that day. You are referring to what was just the first post of the day, but I went on to make more posts concerning other players. In general, I don't like making long multiquote posts, but rather prefer to keep my posts relatively short and more direct.
I'm in the Netherlands by the way (GMT+1). I have a full-time job, traveling back and forth to work. I basically post whenever I had enough time to read up.
I actually agree with you. And for that I apologize. I didn't realize the timeframe in which your posts occupied. I saw seperate posts, assumed seperate thoughts. I apologize for that.
I find your answers reasonable, and moreover they are very calm and collected. Very good post.
On another subject: what do you think of Seppel right now?
My thoughts on everyone thusfar, now that I've taken a day and cooled off a bit:
Antny223 -- I feel the need to clarify my prior "low-hanging fruit" statement. I know that Antny is fairly new to the game. Despite this, he's not playing poorly by any stretch. Hell, I'd argue he's playing better than I am. His inexperience, however, is why I deemed him as low-hanging -- I figured that keeping an eye on him / who is pressuring him might yield an easy scum catch, since he would be easily pushed. Obviously the possibility of his being scum throws a slight wrench into that plan, but so far I've been liking how he's been playing this game. His tone is very open, and it reminds me how he read in Xymande. There's a sincereity to it which is hard to fake -- that he knows he's town, and he's not worried about it.
I agree with this. My read on Antny isn't THAT solidified just yet but I recall thinking that his posts thus far have been sincere sounding in my mind.
Prophylaxis -- I still say this reads like town!Proph. Proph is certainly good enough that he might just have the wool over my eyes, but, meh. I might be too close to the issue, though, since he's been my primary detractor this game. Objectively speaking, his "case" on me was very weak, and that does make him a strong suspect. I feel like Proph -wants- me to be scum (for whatever reason....personal satisfaction of reads, harbored resentment for having to replace out of Xymande, whatever....:P), and this desire may be coloring his read of me. That doesn't make him scum -- just misinformed town.
This seems waffly to me. You're declaring him town, then giving yourself a way out. And this doesn't read like you're that unconfident in your read of him either. Something doesn't fit here.
Seppel -- Seppel has been unusually quiet this game so far. No idea what that means, but I'm sure we'll find out in time, it being Seppel and all.
Agreed there.
Graduating Schoolgirl -- If this is in fact Karn, then he's probably town. I say that because I would be willing to lynch GS based on what I've seen so far toDay, and usually however I'm reading Karn, his alignment is the opposite. I've pushed for his lynch enough times when he's actually town that I've learned better by now. If it's not Karn, then I'm right back to being fine with his lynch.
So... if it's Karn, do you still wanna lynch him?
EWP: Answered in the tl;dr
SunglassesCoolpizza -- Questionmark. I had to do a search to verify that he's even been posting at all.
That's not an opinion. Do you think he's town? Scum?
tl;dr: Fine with pressure on Feranath, Sneaky, GS (conditionally), ITF, and Sunglasses. Everyone else is off-limits in my book at this time.
Wait... you're too close with your read on Sneaky, in theory meaning that you cannot objectively form an opinion... so then why are you ok with pressure on him?
re: Sunglasses, Feranath: You're ok with pressure on them because they didn't leave an impression on you?
And one last question: In the post directly following the one where you cite your inability to scumhunt due to pressure, one would assume there would be some scumhunting. Why was that not present in/following the T/S list?
I guess I see the distinction you're making; Arianrhod may have been asking why you chose to end RVS then rather than wait a bit.
The thing is, he didn't follow it up. You gave the obvious answer of "I saw something scummy, so I ended RVS", and that was the end of it. I feel like Arianrhod would've asked you to clarify further if he was interested in the timing.
Hm. A fair point.
The reason I said that Proph doesn't see Antny as a soft target was because Proph said as much in the previous post, and my own read that Antny looks like a reasonably experienced player. Looking back on it though, I'm less sure of this, at least in the sense that Proph "clearly" didn't see Antny as a soft target. Arianrhod's own read that Antny is new could have colored how he thought Proph saw Antny too. I don't think this changes my primary point here though.
Ok.
For the WIFOM, as I read it, Arianrhod is saying that Proph may be town because he doesn't think Proph would go after a soft-target like Antny, that Proph wouldn't make a rooky mistake like that as scum. I say "WIFOM" because it's one of those "so obviously scummy that good scum would never do it" kinda things. The thing is, scum very often push wagons on softer targets (even good scum). It's a really silly reason to doubt your read on Proph.
...That it is. I didn't catch that the first time I read it.
I say "forced" because Proph had asked why Arianrhod didn't vote for him given his last post, and the reasoning for his doubt on Proph didn't look natural.
Ok.
However
Quote from Killjoy »
But after reading his posts, I believe he's town. And I believe this post:
Quote from Arianrhod »
I'll debate this in the theory thread postgame if you want, but I am firmly of the opinion that RVS is random bull***** and is completely meaningless.
I cannot defend myself and still scumhunt. I acknowledge that other people may be able to, but I'm frankly just not that good.
You say the whole "Strange" thing is semantics. I say the whole ******* game of mafia is semantics. Semantics matter, and if Sneaky is going to get a free pass on that basis, despite used charged language to put words in my mouth to get me lynched, then I'm ******* out. You'll get nothing more from me until I cool down and/or until Sneaky is lynched.
is the strongest evidence to support that. It reads as honest and sincere. He is rightously indignant in his denouncing of RVS, and his "strange" argument. His emotions are running high and he is frustrated because he's constantly on the defensive.
You might be right here; I can see a lot of emotion, I just don't know if it's indignation or anger at being caught for stupid reasons. Once I'm a little less drunk, I need to look back at this.
On your thing on Proph... I'm going to wait for Proph to respond.
I've been thinking while making this post that I might be wrong, that I rushed to judgement on a gut read based on my past play. I need to reread Arian now, because something about his play isn't adding up here. There have been a couple things where he's apperently not following through on that have me second guessing myself (You pointed one out here, I pointed out the other potential one in my response to his T/S list above.
However: Arian: you appear to be at claim range. I'm a lot more ok with your claiming right now than I was. Please claim.
Also: @Sunglasses: I asked you how much mafia experience you have. Can you answer that for me? And can you show me some games if there are any?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I'm Catelyn Stark, town doctor. I can vote, and I have a bunch of flavor about not wanting any harm to come to those I care about, and being worried about the approach of the king's army and whether or not they can breach Winterfell's gates.
He showed a small yet noticeable concern for Seppel saying he was faking, even though Seppel said he SEEMS like he was faking, thus showing a worry that someone has caught onto him and wants to dissolve the situation.
No i was pointing out the fact you were basically stupefying his post by saying he thought there were 6-8 scums in the game. It shows no scumhunting and is rude at best.
He said i was lurking because I posted one post, which had a hefty amount of content (or at least what i would consider content). That's not lurking. if i was lurking, i would have not posted anything (i.e: reads, observations, etc.)
AS for why i /barned proph: at the time it seemed like a good reason, but now that I re-read it: it feels like he is pushing a little that we should have known that the only person who expressed intrest in the hydra was him. He also assumes we know that GS is not a hydra.. which i didn't actually know until it was mentioned. I was wrong for barning proph on that one. I do apologize.
@Proph RE: calling people scummy and not voting them: i have my reasons for it. Try and see how people react to being called scummy. It can give you a lot of information. :] Why are you saying that, after i made two posts, that i call someone scummy, and then go after someone completely different. I did that in my first post /barning you (if you thought you made a good point, why are you calling me out for /barning it and voting your scumread?) and then I said why I was voting fern in my second. I don't see a pattern here..
I am okay with either proph or Fern for the lynch toDay.
I don't know how to feel about Seppel calling out other peoples observations on Proph instead of making his own observations. The laziness factors into it. He could be scum using other peoples wrong judgement to get proph mislynched, and saying he is lazy is a way to get out of having to seriously explain it.
He could also be town who saw good observations, and he is too busy to make his own.
Either way, very hard to read.
I'm keeping my vote on Fern for now. He needs to post some more.
#21 Antny: Agree with his question to Killjoy. I read those posts as reaction baiting.
#31 Killjoy: Don't like this post. Feels fence sitty. So you feel like GS isn't being helpful, but maybe that's just how he is, so you'll give him the benefit of the doubt, despite riding him hard early on? 2+2 =/= 5
Unvote; Vote: Killjoy
#33 GS: Why do you think Proph is scum?
#39 Proph : Why is it scum info-gathering to want to know whether or not he had played with GS before? Do you really believe there is no Town motivation for wanting to know the identity of someone that is deliberately cloaking themselves?
EWP: Somewhat answered.
#57: Not a fan of this post. @Arianrhod: Why did you address Apocalypse, but not Empire of Astare, which Proph also brought up? Going to echo the call for your + and - S on Proph.
Unvote, Vote: Arianrhod
#62, Killjoy: Why do you think it is likely you misinterpreted her motives? Elaborate please.
#64, Pizza Bro: How on earth do you get leanscum on Graduating Schoolgirl? It's pretty clear that GS was baiting reactions and it seems to have worked. You then admit, later that you might be reaching re: your comments about Antny using feminine pronouns could indicate outside conversation, then just /barn Proph in voting for Antny despite giving the impression you found others more scummy?
#67, Fernanth: I don't like your vote on Antny. There's no real content here either.
#73, Sneaky: I like this post. Good catch on the redirecting back to Proph.
#78, Fernanth: You're really reaching if that's what you considered "inside information" from Antny. Why do you think GS wasn't reaction baiting?
#85, Antny: What two games of Arianrhod's did you compare?
#95, Pizza Bro: Do you think Seppel's first post wasn't bad? if so, why?
#101, Arianrhod: If "reading anything into RVS is laughable", then how does the game progress past RVS? Do we not progress into the main Day activities when someone ends RVS because someone did something they felt is worth serious discussion?
I have no interest in lynching: ITF, Fulcrum, Sneaky, Proph, Antny
I need more information before considering a lynch: Killjoy, Fernanth
I'm not opposed to lynching: Pizza Bro
I want to lynch: Arianrhod
Null: Graduating School, Seppel
Any posts after 101 I'll get to later.
UUU Azami, Lady of Scrolls
RRR Diaochan, Artful Beauty
UR(U/R) Tibor, Lumia, & Melek (WIP)
Mafia Stats
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
#swag
Sunglasses Coolpizza's 95 is another bad post. In post 113 he suddenly retracts the case on me (now others have told him it's bad) Then he suddenly goes after Proph as soon Seppel lays down his vote (there's a touch of OMGUS mized in for good measure). More votes on Pizza please.
Umm... Okay.
Just the way he did it, it looked natural. He didn't keep pushing it or abruptly back off, and I can see him reevaluating his initial read considering this is his first game in a while.
There had to have been some reason. Even if it's "you didn't notice them" or "you didn't feel like it".
It was just weird because that was half your case on Antny, and you didn't even mention Killjoy/Arian doing the exact same thing.
Okay, but how does that make any sense with this:
Cause it sounds like you're saying you think scumProph wouldn't attack Antny.
The thing is, you didn't get that much pressure until a bit later on, you're first few posts didn't really have any scumhunting.
Take a step back. Sneaky gave a fine explanation for his language, and I'm not sure why you're overreacting to it.
I agree that the way he backed off Antny felt off, but other than that I've liked his posts.
I agree that part of 113 was really really bad, but I still feel stronger about Arianrhod. Once Arian got a little bit of pressure on him, he exploded.
As for me taking back my read: Ant, would you rather me push a bad case on you? I took it back because others said it was bad. If i continued to push the case, I would have gotten ***** from people. Your use of the word suddenly is very odd seeing as i explained why I did what i did each time I did it. Don't try and say that I "suddenly" did something when I don't.. suddenly do something.
Suddenly would indicate i voted proph without an explanation.. seeing as i barned him before.
Stop pushing a case on me just because you don't "like" the way i play.
Unvote
Vote SunglassesCoolPizza
Sorry for the short post. I'll probably make another post later tonight.
Please read through all of the bolded one more time, Sunglasses. Your reasons for thinking I am scum are based on a misunderstanding. As Killjoy states here:
all I was doing was summing up my thoughts on you. Including your postcount was relevant in my post about you to make the point that I don't have a strong read either way. I even said that the reason you had such a low postcount was likely due to you not having as much time as others. I never said you were lurking. Rather, I said it was a possibility. You've taken my words and made them seem like I was attacking you.
If you still have reason to think I'm scum, I'd like to hear it. Misinterpreting my words is an honest mistake, but not something you can base a read off of.
I wasn't so much referring to the amount of time as the amount of content.
Again, I'm referring to the fact that of all the things that happened between the times you posted, you chose to make a point I'd already made on a player that was unlikely to respond.
My point, I suppose, is that with all that additional content ITT, you chose to respond to basically nothing for your first post back.
Relevent question though: What time zone are you in?
Not 100% sure what the second half means... I assume you're asking me to weigh the evidence you three have presented against Arian. If that's not what you meant, let me know.
And to be honest I haven't paid him much notice. His play just wasn't jumping out at me.
But after reading his posts, I believe he's town. And I believe this post:
is the strongest evidence to support that. It reads as honest and sincere. He is rightously indignant in his denouncing of RVS, and his "strange" argument. His emotions are running high and he is frustrated because he's constantly on the defensive.
I can personally attest to having this exact mindset in... Vanilla 2 Mafia? I remember getting into it with Wheat. I think I even literally said "I can't scumhunt if I'm constantly trying to defend myself".
As to the points made against him:
A valid starting point. Scum sometimes vote people who are not in the game during RVS to avoid unwanted attention/not make enemies.
Here's another point. I feel like you're letting your reads color your judgement, though. IIRC, that was the first time any question of that type was asked. So, calling it redundant would be incorrect, as it didn't overlap any other questions. Also, it really wasn't a softball question. It reads as a serious, relevent question.
Here's your final point. I can see the redirecting thing. Not sure where he gets the low-hanging fruit thing, but I can see where he got the unloading pressure thing. I was questioning Proph a but back then, so I feel like that's a viable conclusion. As to the joke, IDK why people seem to think every joke has to cover something up. I feel like this 'joke' is only meant to show that he doesn't understand Proph's play.
Strange is a fair word to use in this instance. I don't feel like he's redirecting though. I feel like he's beginning to get frustrated at this point, so it's possible he's lashing out.
=====================================================================
Overall assessment: I don't feel like you're analysis is overall unfair, and so not telling of your alignment. I feel like you're tunneling a bit though because you read him as scummy, so you're not analyzing as objectively as you could be.
Not really a 'point' per se but ITF calls the post useless because it was obvious why I ended RVS. But it occurs to me that that's not the question Arian asked me: He asked me why I chose to end RVS at that time.
@ITF: Is Arian's post #35 still useless given that he asked me why I ended RVS at that time, vs. just asking me why I ended RVS as is what you seem to have interpreted that question as?
Here's the next point.
And as I read it, some thoughts come to me.
@ITF:You say Proph clearly doesn't see Antny as a soft target. What makes you say that? Also, you say he's being WIFOMy and it feels forced in the way he described his unsureness of Proph. I'm for sure not seeing the WIFOM, and I'm not sure where you saw forcedness. Can you enlighten me a little bit on those points?
I do like the +s, -s question. It's a good question.
===========================================================
Some unanswered questions here. I look forward to hearing the anwswers.
This is a REALLY weak case. Like I said earlier, the vote on Kosa was a good starting point, but here it's basically the crux of his case. His second post is a gut read which Seppel countered, and his third is that his "enigma wrapped in an Iso wrapped in a taco was somehow forcefully inserted to... do something scummy, of which I'm not completely clear. @Prophy: In what ways can a fake joke == scummy intent? Are any of those reasons present in this game and why?
Regardless, there's almost no heft to this case.
And you say you always do this? Since when? I don't recall this type of play from you.
I have better things to do with my vote. Or rather I will very soon. I just need time to sit here and make the case.
To both of these: Yes. And the uselessness it was not apperent.
And I'll read it again, but I don't recall there being enough there for me to see why you saw him as so scummy at that point in the game.
Ignoring him... when you don't know his alignment?
Ummmm... no? How about now?
So the two people who are possibly scum together make some points about Prophy, then you vote him. That doesn't make sense.
Can I have a T/S list from you as well? Your reads are unclear.
Maybe it was a little rude. If Seppel requires an apology, he can ask for one.
But that statement was part of my distaste toward his first post. He just basically decided not to evaluate half the game. It annoyed me.
There was little enough in the post to make it a fair assumption. And he mentioned it in kind of a throwaway way. You massively overreacted. Why is someone thinking you're lurking (whether or not they're right) worthy of such a harsh reaction?
And as to the hydra thing... Ok.
One last question: how much mafia experience do you have?
Because my initial thoughts on her motives were as I said in that post: I felt like it was just an incredibly bad scum move, because it just didn't occur to me that reaction baiting was a thing. I personally never do it, so I didn't remember that it was a thing in mafia. It just... didn't occur to me. Given that it IS a thing, and remembering back to when other people did it, then it's obvious in retrospect that she IS doing it. Knowing that prior to my vote would have affected my vote in that I would not have made it.
Ok so, I'm going to try to make a case tomorrow morning on Prophy. I believe I saw a mindset tell that I believe is very telling of alignment. For now I'm gonna take a break from the computer.
Antny223 -- I feel the need to clarify my prior "low-hanging fruit" statement. I know that Antny is fairly new to the game. Despite this, he's not playing poorly by any stretch. Hell, I'd argue he's playing better than I am. His inexperience, however, is why I deemed him as low-hanging -- I figured that keeping an eye on him / who is pressuring him might yield an easy scum catch, since he would be easily pushed. Obviously the possibility of his being scum throws a slight wrench into that plan, but so far I've been liking how he's been playing this game. His tone is very open, and it reminds me how he read in Xymande. There's a sincereity to it which is hard to fake -- that he knows he's town, and he's not worried about it.
Feranath -- I don't have a very strong impression of this guy yet one way or the other. His posts leave a vague hint of tryhardiness in my mind, but that could be attributed to either town or scum mindset. It all depends on what kind of a player he is, and since I've never played with him before, I'm going to have to wait and see how my read evolves.
Prophylaxis -- I still say this reads like town!Proph. Proph is certainly good enough that he might just have the wool over my eyes, but, meh. I might be too close to the issue, though, since he's been my primary detractor this game. Objectively speaking, his "case" on me was very weak, and that does make him a strong suspect. I feel like Proph -wants- me to be scum (for whatever reason....personal satisfaction of reads, harbored resentment for having to replace out of Xymande, whatever....:P), and this desire may be coloring his read of me. That doesn't make him scum -- just misinformed town.
Seppel -- Seppel has been unusually quiet this game so far. No idea what that means, but I'm sure we'll find out in time, it being Seppel and all.
iRebel -- I'm not seeing any of the things that I saw in Pleasantville which led me to call him out as scum (correctly so, as it turned out). He has also been pretty quiet.
Sneakyhomonuculus -- I'm way too close to this one to offer any kind of objective thought. Unvote.
Graduating Schoolgirl -- If this is in fact Karn, then he's probably town. I say that because I would be willing to lynch GS based on what I've seen so far toDay, and usually however I'm reading Karn, his alignment is the opposite. I've pushed for his lynch enough times when he's actually town that I've learned better by now. If it's not Karn, then I'm right back to being fine with his lynch.
Fulcrum -- Smaller and fewer posts than in Pleasantville, but the overall tone and the questioning process seems to be the same, so she's probably town again.
ITF -- I've never played with this guy before, but all he's done so far is sheep the wagon on me, so that doesn't give me a very favorable impression. Do some other stuff, or at least link me to some of your other games.
SunglassesCoolpizza -- Questionmark. I had to do a search to verify that he's even been posting at all.
Killjoy -- I've liked his lines of questioning and his thought processes so far. No experience with him, but unlike ITF and Feranath, he's actually been producing good content.
tl;dr: Fine with pressure on Feranath, Sneaky, GS (conditionally), ITF, and Sunglasses. Everyone else is off-limits in my book at this time.
So... here's where it all starts. Prophy said this a bit ago. But here's where my thoughts when I first saw it:
"Ah. He thinks I'm town, except for my early interactions with GS." ->
"Wait... did he ever ask me about that?" ->
"No he didn't. So, if he's actually trying to figure out his alignment... Why wouldn't he ask me about that? It's an obvious series of questions that someone would ask in the course of determining my alignment."->
"If he were town, he'd be trying to figure out my motives for backing off of GS when I did, but he's not."
So then I thought: Prophy isn't trying to declare me town. But maybe it's not me specifically... He's not looking for town at all. He's just looking for scum.
And I believe that's telling of his alignment. Because townies are constantly trying to figure out who are on their team. Scum don't need to because they know who the townies are.
Vote Prophy.
I was hoping to get more to work off of with the T/S list I asked him for, but he decided not to give that.
That the wagon on Arianrhod seems to have emerged despite there not being much in the way of a case against him.
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Official Vote Count - 1.04
Prophylaxis (3) - Graduating Schoolgirl (#9), Seppel (#111), Killjoy (#130)
Arianrhod (5) - Sneakyhomunculus (#10), Prophylaxis (#59), ITF (#63), Fulcrum (#108), iRebel (#115)
Feranath (1) - SunglassesCoolpizza (#95)
SunglassesCoolpizza (2) - Antny223 (#72), Feranath (#121)
Not Voting (1): Arianrhod
Sneaky's V/LA has been noted through Monday, 3/24
As always, please let me know if there are any errors.
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
The "Strange" reasoning that he used to attack you was really bad and his subsequent post seemed far angrier than the situation called for. I was initially hoping to provoke an angry reaction out him with the naked vote and compare it to his reaction in post 105 (which, fyi, is why I haven't check in in a while). Beyond that, I agree with Proph's stance that Arianrhod feels different (he's less proactive then he was in Pleasantville) and the initial vote for Kosa was so safe it hurt. I also don't remember him having a problem with analyzing RVS when it was used against Gan_dan in Pleasantville, so his anger over it here is jarring.
Arainrhod: Why are all of your reads either town or null? Do you have any actual scumreads?
I guess I see the distinction you're making; Arianrhod may have been asking why you chose to end RVS then rather than wait a bit.
The thing is, he didn't follow it up. You gave the obvious answer of "I saw something scummy, so I ended RVS", and that was the end of it. I feel like Arianrhod would've asked you to clarify further if he was interested in the timing.
The reason I said that Proph doesn't see Antny as a soft target was because Proph said as much in the previous post, and my own read that Antny looks like a reasonably experienced player. Looking back on it though, I'm less sure of this, at least in the sense that Proph "clearly" didn't see Antny as a soft target. Arianrhod's own read that Antny is new could have colored how he thought Proph saw Antny too. I don't think this changes my primary point here though.
For the WIFOM, as I read it, Arianrhod is saying that Proph may be town because he doesn't think Proph would go after a soft-target like Antny, that Proph wouldn't make a rooky mistake like that as scum. I say "WIFOM" because it's one of those "so obviously scummy that good scum would never do it" kinda things. The thing is, scum very often push wagons on softer targets (even good scum). It's a really silly reason to doubt your read on Proph.
I say "forced" because Proph had asked why Arianrhod didn't vote for him given his last post, and the reasoning for his doubt on Proph didn't look natural.
However
You might be right here; I can see a lot of emotion, I just don't know if it's indignation or anger at being caught for stupid reasons. Once I'm a little less drunk, I need to look back at this.
On your thing on Proph... I'm going to wait for Proph to respond.
@Arianrhod though, can you answer this?
Should have said this at the beginning of the week, but was insanely busy this entire week, and will be for a while longer.
Noted.
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
Why do you see it as pushing a quick lynch when GS did not lead with a claim, or provide any information? That's what I don't understand. What would you consider reaction baiting?
Are we reading the same game?
@Fern/Arianhod: There's outstanding questions I asked you. Please answer them.
@Mod: I have a bit of a cold, so I am going to be semi-V/LA for a few days.
UUU Azami, Lady of Scrolls
RRR Diaochan, Artful Beauty
UR(U/R) Tibor, Lumia, & Melek (WIP)
Mafia Stats
Noted. Due to the number of people on leave and March Madness weekend, I'll put a stay on prods until Monday night.
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
I'll start actually posting. I'm super busy these days so I can't do too much, but I'll start with explaining my original reads proclamation.
- Prophy didn't say hi to me. We talk a lot about mafia offsite and he has expressed to me multiple times that he was looking forward to playing a game together where we are both town. So, playing on this rapport I led with what I did, expecting SOMETHING out of him. He chose to ignore me, which is when I asked him if he was scum. Here's the thing: Proph knows that I can read him very well. He knows that if he gets into a fight or argument with me that I will win (I have won every time he's been scum and I've been town). There's also just going to be an element of disappointment from him—we spent a lot of time talking about being town together, and he isn't town this game. Here's the deal: If proph were town I would expect him to be spending time trying to probe me and figure out if I am town because he wants to actually play with me. But he did zero of this. This tells me that he doesn't need to probe me and doesn't want to fight me, because he knows that if he draws my attention into a fight, he will lose. Therefore, he's scum trying to ignore me so that he doesn't need to deal with me.
- Killjoy fell all over himself when voting me over the proph read. I can see two possible motivations behind this: The first is that Proph is his buddy and he's chainsawing me. The second is that he saw my posts as easy to jump on and made an opportunistic vote. Neither looks good, and it's very possible that both are true. I can see zero way that any reasonable human being could take my early game posts as serious, and therefore anybody who did has some ulterior motive for doing so, such as… being scum.
- Aryan Rod made a bad RVS vote, so he got lumped in as #3.
---
I'll be back either tonight or monday night with more content.
***Disclaimer***
The post above was c/p'd from a text document that I wrote when I was a little bit drunk. I didn't edit it at all.
I'm Seppel and I approve of this message.
UUU Azami, Lady of Scrolls
RRR Diaochan, Artful Beauty
UR(U/R) Tibor, Lumia, & Melek (WIP)
Mafia Stats
will post when better
that isssssss
@Seppel: Why'd your opinion of GS flip?
I do wanna see Proph's response to GS's point on him.
I haven't, really. My attentions are focused elsewhere. I'm not all that convinced that chasing ghosts who are trying to remain incorporeal is more productive than chasing ghosts disguised as humans right now, at any rate.
I actually agree with you. And for that I apologize. I didn't realize the timeframe in which your posts occupied. I saw seperate posts, assumed seperate thoughts. I apologize for that.
I find your answers reasonable, and moreover they are very calm and collected. Very good post.
On another subject: what do you think of Seppel right now?
I agree with this. My read on Antny isn't THAT solidified just yet but I recall thinking that his posts thus far have been sincere sounding in my mind.
This seems waffly to me. You're declaring him town, then giving yourself a way out. And this doesn't read like you're that unconfident in your read of him either. Something doesn't fit here.
Agreed there.
So... if it's Karn, do you still wanna lynch him?
EWP: Answered in the tl;dr
That's not an opinion. Do you think he's town? Scum?
Wait... you're too close with your read on Sneaky, in theory meaning that you cannot objectively form an opinion... so then why are you ok with pressure on him?
re: Sunglasses, Feranath: You're ok with pressure on them because they didn't leave an impression on you?
And one last question: In the post directly following the one where you cite your inability to scumhunt due to pressure, one would assume there would be some scumhunting. Why was that not present in/following the T/S list?
Hm. A fair point.
Ok.
...That it is. I didn't catch that the first time I read it.
Ok.
I've been thinking while making this post that I might be wrong, that I rushed to judgement on a gut read based on my past play. I need to reread Arian now, because something about his play isn't adding up here. There have been a couple things where he's apperently not following through on that have me second guessing myself (You pointed one out here, I pointed out the other potential one in my response to his T/S list above.
However: Arian: you appear to be at claim range. I'm a lot more ok with your claiming right now than I was. Please claim.
Also: @Sunglasses: I asked you how much mafia experience you have. Can you answer that for me? And can you show me some games if there are any?
Why is he town to you? Reasons please?
Sneakyhomunculus, Prophylaxis, are still on v/la through tonight, iRebel through Wednesday.
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
We really need to lynch Proph and move on to the next day.
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
Who do you want to lynch Today and why?
Fulcrum confirmed town.
Mod please remember to PM players instead of open comments like that.