Cantrip, for me it's prioritizing. Karn has provided the town a mafia lynch. If he's town or neutral, there's more important players to go after. However if he's mafia, then that's something to discuss on a later Day. Currently, we should lynch other hidden mafia, in that case.
I guess I'm just exactly where Axel is: I can't resolve Karn's actions as town, so I think he's the optimal lynch.
Rhand: Re 1156, he wasn't acting like he knew AI was scum; he was acting like he wanted to be on record as suspecting AI.
/barn 1158.
1159: Bad AtE by TK. I tend to agree that lynch all liars isn't reliable, but it's not dumb. Hm, yeah, basically what Axel said in 1160.
...1203 is giving me pause, though. There's some sincerity there. And no counterclaim...hmm...
1225: This coming on the heels of KK's 1224 feels really off. Same with 1236. @Plum: You can't think of any reason that people aren't pushing for Karn to reveal his target from last night?
And I usually shy away from saying stuff like this because it occasionally gets me in trouble, but I feel it is the best way to sum up my case on Karn.
Remember how I said a couple times I judge people based on what I expect a normal player to do? Well Karn has stated he is in fact a good player, so I feel I can hold him up to normal player standards.
If Karn is town here he has not been a good player, or even an average player. He has been a horrible player. He has been semi inactive, he is trying his best to die with a scan right now. He has lied about dumb things for no profitable gain whatsoever, and although you do not know this yet, he currently is voting town with a terrible argument.
If Karn is town this is the worst game from a town power role that has caught scum I have ever seen. You have to majorly screw up if you are being suspected by multiple people the day after you caught scum that takes unquestionable levels of badness that based on what I have seen should not be coming from a town Karn.
Now on the other hand, although a tad sloppy, scum Karn would make sense here. I consider myself a very good scum player and I have screwed up plenty of times. I would expect only the very best scum to fly flawlessly. Scum Karns actions, although worthy of mild criticism, could very well come from an average or even above average player.
If you are telling me Karn is town here, you are telling me Karn is very bad at mafia, and if that is true I will quickly reconsider my vote. But until someone tells me that I have to give Karn the benefit of the doubt here
@cantrip, town Karn easily could have said I scanned player X. He is town.
Wonderful news! We have a cleared town! No need to know more!
Saying that he won't reveal his scan because he scanned a power is a horrendous play if he is town. Absolutely horrible. If town Karn dies tonight the scan was worthless
How about I claim, we lynch TK and we can decide our next move?
Do it. I'm 100% behind this plan.
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic here.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
@Plum: Given that he's already indicated that his scan was power, that bridge has been crossed, no? Certainly supports your "Karn is bad-playing scum, not good town" theory, though. Regardless, why are you expressing surprise that we're not all hollering for Karn's target at this point in the game? Why is it better to expose "powerful" town (who Karn has said isn't under suspicion) than to (possibly) lose that town-confirmation if Karn dies? Especially if you think Karn is scum, in which case you can't trust his read, anyway.
I am very leery of lynching TK since he was the counterwagon to AI. What are the chances we'd have wagons on two scum simultaneously?
Because I think he is lying and full of crap. If we force karn to give us more it becomes more likely he will screw up or give us something he doesn't want to give
@cantrip, town Karn easily could have said I scanned player X. He is town.
Wonderful news! We have a cleared town! No need to know more!
Saying that he won't reveal his scan because he scanned a power is a horrendous play if he is town. Absolutely horrible. If town Karn dies tonight the scan was worthless
Except for the fact where, since I'm a rolecop, then only way I could know someone is town is if they have an obviously-town PR...
If I scan someone and see Vanilla, there is no way if I know that is town or goon. Giving the replay "He is town" gives the obvious inclination that I scanned power - thus why I haven't said who it is.
I'm not an alignment Cop. I'm a role/guild cop. I still had checked AI and AE like I said, and given that I saw AI's abilities, and knowing the knowledge I had that I mentioned earlier of Prophy having a hand in this setup, and AI's behaviour above all of course, I was extremely certain that I was correct. So much so that I was willing to risk 2 mislynches on it (AI's and my own).
Also, AE's ability basically confirms him as town IMO.
Each Night you can give away a mizzium device. You must do it in the first half of the Night. If you give it to another Izzet player, they can use it toNight. If you give it to a non-Izzet player they can't use it until the next Night. You are immune to effects of the devices you give away.
List of devices - each can only be given away once:
1. Roleblock.
2. Rolecop - but only if they use their action toNight.
3. Mason for the Night - must submit this before the lynch seen.
4. Commuter.
5. Doc shot.
6. Make a player doublevoter for a Day.
7. Make it take +1 to lynch a player Tomorrow.
8. Cop.
All of these are one-time uses of course.
In addition to the above, you can make a replica of any device, and replicas always fail. You can attach any ability to the replica and the mod will reword it to make it look real.
You can make multiple replicas over the game, but must use a different ability every time.
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The way fail is worded, it shouldn't hurt you, Dagaen, even if AI gave you a replica. It sounds like if it's a fake, worst case scenario is that you'll just get no result.
So in the second post here you paraphrased AI's role. How in the world could you just see Vanila
But this is an irrelevant point. In the first post you said you gambled about AI's role and you had to guess despite the fact AI claimed he could make a night skip and that ability is not on your list in the second post.
Paranoid gun owner is super-anti-town.
There is literally no reason for town to want to make someone that. It potentially blows up half of town.
In scum hands however, that is a very powerful gift.
I'm even more convinced now that AI is scum.
In the fringe case of karn being an insane cop: would a town flip from AI in that case mean that AE is scum?
Who said that flavorwise handing out malfunctioning gifts suits Izzet? Can't find that post.
That's really bad flavorgaming: roles were randomed over the players after they were assigned a guild.
Dagaen: why do you not believe Karn when he says AI is scum yet you do believe him when he says AE is town?
vote AI
Complete side note: I think Rhand knows too much here
Uh, Plum, I have to admit I'm a little confused here. What did you think Karn was claiming?
You keep using the word "scan" which is not standard terminology, and it seems like you mean different things different times you use it.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Since people are still suspecting him, and apparently haven't gotten the multiple hints, and using a Vig or Cop on him now would be a waste, I checked AE. He's not scum.
Also, I'll claim that I'm not your average cop and leave it at that. I'll be open to sharing more Tomorrow.
I really didn't want to claim my broken shots, but I suppose doing so is better than getting mislynched.
I can give a vig shot.
I can make someone a paranoid gun owner for a Night.
I can give someone the ability to skip a Night phase.
Take your pick.
Dumb multi quote put these quotes backwards, but Karn posted exactly 14 minutes after AI posted with what should have been 100% proof AI was scum, but AI completely ignored it as well as the the subsequent conversation about the powers.
This is just inconceivable for town Karn to do this
Plum, this is what we (at least me) have already been talking about for days. What did you think we were talking about?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
@Plum: What in 981 do you see that suggests Rhand knows too much?
I feel conflicted regarding Karn. Part of me says kill it with fire, the rest of me says don't lynch the un-cc'd investigative role. I don't think I see Plum and Karn as buddies, though, for what that's worth.
How about I claim, we lynch TK and we can decide our next move?
Do it. I'm 100% behind this plan.
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic here.
Deadly serious. CwotIdidthar?
AE votes me coming back from D3. After a lynch on the counter-wagon to me turned out to be mafia. When pressed on why he voted me, he says "He knows things". He suggests he claim, which sounds like he'll claim an investigative, and he got a scum result on me. So bring it on. Let's hear what AE is so sure about. I am completely and totally 100% for him claiming, and then lynching me. I've already claimed vanilla, so if he's correct, you guys lynch mafia. If he's wrong, you lynch an expendable vanilla, and know for certain who's mafia. There's even a secondary benefit to this plan that I'll mention later when the time comes!
I will be on the road. I will be phone posting but won't likely be putting out huge posts.
I would like AE to explain his reasons too. I think AE is town, but he should know he isn't beaked as towny enough to get things moving without explanation.
The reason I said I think Rhand knew too much is that even with weird inventions it's odd for someone to instantly disbelieve the inventor claim. PGO is certainly an odd invention for town to give, but it isn't impossible.
Rhand treats it as a smoking gun which I think is most likely to come from someone who knew too much
TK-421's post is coming off as very sincere. Not that scum can't sometimes bluff a good game, but I do like his response.
I'm okay with Karn just saying the Guild of the person he investigated.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I think I have found my biggest peeve with these super long days, it is nearly impossible to have a conversation with someone.
I have found one way Karn could still be town here. It is a super long shot, but it is possible and the only way I would buy it is if Karn organically came up with the reasoning himself. These long days however both make it acceptable for players to be around little enough to avoid conversation if scum and unpressured enough to encourage it as town.
A full week could pass by before I could get Karn to talk enough to be certain about my read.
The reason I said I think Rhand knew too much is that even with weird inventions it's odd for someone to instantly disbelieve the inventor claim. PGO is certainly an odd invention for town to give, but it isn't impossible.
Rhand treats it as a smoking gun which I think is most likely to come from someone who knew too much
How anti-town can an item be? I can't phatom a world where a mod would give one of those to a town to hand out.
No, I agree it is an anti town item, but an izzet inventor giving items with interesting applications works flavor wise. I could see in this game a town izzet inventor who inventions that are all difficult to use. Suppose it could give out a PGO, a gambler vig shot, a mason recruit where you die if you target scum etc.
Flavor wise it works. I could see it.
What doesn't really work is giving out a PGO and a night skipper, a very easy to use item as well as a very difficult to use item. If the dichotomy made you not believe AI I wouldn't be suspicious.
However just seeing a PGO and assuming a lie makes me raise my eyebrows a bit
Note in my previous argument for his plan, I said that he said "He knows thing". The "He" in that quote refers to AE. I never actually left my first-person view. That's why he sounded like he was claiming an investigative to me.
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She wants a ride on the pony, dude.
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I've pointed out how Plum has: contradicted himself; lied; is trying to push a town PR lynch off the back of those contradictions and lies; and is still greatly interested in the information from that town PR that he wants to lynch.
I don't see what the hold up is with lynching this Plum guy.
Note in my previous argument for his plan, I said that he said "He knows thing". The "He" in that quote refers to AE. I never actually left my first-person view. That's why he sounded like he was claiming an investigative to me.
I have no investigative role.
This day is getting old. It's slowing down. I want the town to put some faith in me. TK is up for getting lynched so let's move ahead with that. If you think I'm BSn then you all can deal with me tomorrow, but I have no doubts in what I've figured out.
Either forget about Karn or lynch him. There's not another avenue to go down now with the deadline coming up.
I simply cannot fathom how anyone can read what Karn wrote and not think he is scum here. He is stalling out the day hard core. If you lynch him and he flips town by all means lynch me tomorrow
Note in my previous argument for his plan, I said that he said "He knows thing". The "He" in that quote refers to AE. I never actually left my first-person view. That's why he sounded like he was claiming an investigative to me.
I have no investigative role.
This day is getting old. It's slowing down. I want the town to put some faith in me. TK is up for getting lynched so let's move ahead with that. If you think I'm BSn then you all can deal with me tomorrow, but I have no doubts in what I've figured out.
Either forget about Karn or lynch him. There's not another avenue to go down now with the deadline coming up.
TL;DR: You're lazy, so we should do what you say rather than make you actually play the game.
Got it.
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I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
I'm transitioning into a rather busy period at work, unfortunately. Which means the more I'm here, the less I'm doing things I probably should be doing. Do not expect any dreadnaughts from me for the next couple of weeks.
AE: if what you have on TK is not "investigative" in nature but is just something you have "figured out" then is there any reaason for you not to share these fruits of your wisdom? Did you already do this and I missed it?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
[quote from="Archmage Eternal" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/outside-magic/mafia/546463-return-to-ravnica-day-three-sphinxs-termination?comment=1281"][quote from="TK-421" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/outside-magic/mafia/546463-return-to-ravnica-day-three-sphinxs-termination?comment=1274"]TL;DR: You're lazy, so we should do what you say rather than make you actually play the game.
Got it.
If your town and you want to win this then give me this little nugget. But your scum so I understand your dilemma.
AE: if what you have on TK is not "investigative" in nature but is just something you have "figured out" then is there any reaason for you not to share these fruits of your wisdom? Did you already do this and I missed it?
No because that would give the scum time to plan things out.
So AE's just BSing because he has nothing I guess.
His argument boils down to: "Hey guys, I know I've done nothing of value all game, and just tried to make a case on KK only to pretend it never happened after a single response, but let's lynch the probable town player because of things I can wait to reveal later and I'll talk my way out of his mislynch after I see what he is."
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I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
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I guess I'm just exactly where Axel is: I can't resolve Karn's actions as town, so I think he's the optimal lynch.
Rhand: Re 1156, he wasn't acting like he knew AI was scum; he was acting like he wanted to be on record as suspecting AI.
/barn 1158.
1159: Bad AtE by TK. I tend to agree that lynch all liars isn't reliable, but it's not dumb. Hm, yeah, basically what Axel said in 1160.
...1203 is giving me pause, though. There's some sincerity there. And no counterclaim...hmm...
1225: This coming on the heels of KK's 1224 feels really off. Same with 1236. @Plum: You can't think of any reason that people aren't pushing for Karn to reveal his target from last night?
Remember how I said a couple times I judge people based on what I expect a normal player to do? Well Karn has stated he is in fact a good player, so I feel I can hold him up to normal player standards.
If Karn is town here he has not been a good player, or even an average player. He has been a horrible player. He has been semi inactive, he is trying his best to die with a scan right now. He has lied about dumb things for no profitable gain whatsoever, and although you do not know this yet, he currently is voting town with a terrible argument.
If Karn is town this is the worst game from a town power role that has caught scum I have ever seen. You have to majorly screw up if you are being suspected by multiple people the day after you caught scum that takes unquestionable levels of badness that based on what I have seen should not be coming from a town Karn.
Now on the other hand, although a tad sloppy, scum Karn would make sense here. I consider myself a very good scum player and I have screwed up plenty of times. I would expect only the very best scum to fly flawlessly. Scum Karns actions, although worthy of mild criticism, could very well come from an average or even above average player.
If you are telling me Karn is town here, you are telling me Karn is very bad at mafia, and if that is true I will quickly reconsider my vote. But until someone tells me that I have to give Karn the benefit of the doubt here
Wonderful news! We have a cleared town! No need to know more!
Saying that he won't reveal his scan because he scanned a power is a horrendous play if he is town. Absolutely horrible. If town Karn dies tonight the scan was worthless
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic here.
I am very leery of lynching TK since he was the counterwagon to AI. What are the chances we'd have wagons on two scum simultaneously?
Except for the fact where, since I'm a rolecop, then only way I could know someone is town is if they have an obviously-town PR...
If I scan someone and see Vanilla, there is no way if I know that is town or goon. Giving the replay "He is town" gives the obvious inclination that I scanned power - thus why I haven't said who it is.
You seriously did not think this through.
That knew scum gave out fake inventions?
He has contradicted himself and has resorted to ad hom to try and get me lynched.
Holy ****.
You're not even looking at my posts and just blindly trying to push a lynch.
You initially said you knew about people's flavor and guilds you now are saying you only know their role
So in the second post here you paraphrased AI's role. How in the world could you just see Vanila
But this is an irrelevant point. In the first post you said you gambled about AI's role and you had to guess despite the fact AI claimed he could make a night skip and that ability is not on your list in the second post.
You are so scum here
What is the guild of the person you scanned?
Complete side note: I think Rhand knows too much here
You keep using the word "scan" which is not standard terminology, and it seems like you mean different things different times you use it.
Dumb multi quote put these quotes backwards, but Karn posted exactly 14 minutes after AI posted with what should have been 100% proof AI was scum, but AI completely ignored it as well as the the subsequent conversation about the powers.
This is just inconceivable for town Karn to do this
What is the guild of the person you investigated last night Karn?
But Karn got me circling around to potentially a weaker argument on him. I was trying to refocus it.
You are not paying attention. Why is that?
I think I support Karn answering this question.
@Plum: What in 981 do you see that suggests Rhand knows too much?
I feel conflicted regarding Karn. Part of me says kill it with fire, the rest of me says don't lynch the un-cc'd investigative role. I don't think I see Plum and Karn as buddies, though, for what that's worth.
Deadly serious. CwotIdidthar?
AE votes me coming back from D3. After a lynch on the counter-wagon to me turned out to be mafia. When pressed on why he voted me, he says "He knows things". He suggests he claim, which sounds like he'll claim an investigative, and he got a scum result on me. So bring it on. Let's hear what AE is so sure about. I am completely and totally 100% for him claiming, and then lynching me. I've already claimed vanilla, so if he's correct, you guys lynch mafia. If he's wrong, you lynch an expendable vanilla, and know for certain who's mafia. There's even a secondary benefit to this plan that I'll mention later when the time comes!
/barn. Seriously, between you and AE, this is just... I mean, you two aren't even trying to help the town win.
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Any outstanding questions to me?
I have an outstanding question.
Pics?
Mafia Stats
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Issue with my shooting? Please visit my helpdesk and help me learn to aim!
I will be on the road. I will be phone posting but won't likely be putting out huge posts.
I would like AE to explain his reasons too. I think AE is town, but he should know he isn't beaked as towny enough to get things moving without explanation.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Rhand treats it as a smoking gun which I think is most likely to come from someone who knew too much
I'm okay with Karn just saying the Guild of the person he investigated.
Hmm, and once again, Plum gives a response I didn't expect.
@Axelrod: Can you outline exactly how you see scum-Karn's mentality progressing throughout the previous day?
I may need to consider Rhand.
TK's somewhat fallen off my scum list due to recent posts.
I have found one way Karn could still be town here. It is a super long shot, but it is possible and the only way I would buy it is if Karn organically came up with the reasoning himself. These long days however both make it acceptable for players to be around little enough to avoid conversation if scum and unpressured enough to encourage it as town.
A full week could pass by before I could get Karn to talk enough to be certain about my read.
How anti-town can an item be? I can't phatom a world where a mod would give one of those to a town to hand out.
Thanks for the congratulations everyone!
you clearly never opened the spoiler in my sig lol.
Flavor wise it works. I could see it.
What doesn't really work is giving out a PGO and a night skipper, a very easy to use item as well as a very difficult to use item. If the dichotomy made you not believe AI I wouldn't be suspicious.
However just seeing a PGO and assuming a lie makes me raise my eyebrows a bit
Note in my previous argument for his plan, I said that he said "He knows thing". The "He" in that quote refers to AE. I never actually left my first-person view. That's why he sounded like he was claiming an investigative to me.
Mafia Stats
Kill shot: BB
Issue with my shooting? Please visit my helpdesk and help me learn to aim!
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I've pointed out how Plum has: contradicted himself; lied; is trying to push a town PR lynch off the back of those contradictions and lies; and is still greatly interested in the information from that town PR that he wants to lynch.
I don't see what the hold up is with lynching this Plum guy.
Person you scanned last nights guild. Now
If you haven't done your taxes yet, now would be a good time to do that too.
I have no investigative role.
This day is getting old. It's slowing down. I want the town to put some faith in me. TK is up for getting lynched so let's move ahead with that. If you think I'm BSn then you all can deal with me tomorrow, but I have no doubts in what I've figured out.
Either forget about Karn or lynch him. There's not another avenue to go down now with the deadline coming up.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
TL;DR: You're lazy, so we should do what you say rather than make you actually play the game.
Got it.
AE: if what you have on TK is not "investigative" in nature but is just something you have "figured out" then is there any reaason for you not to share these fruits of your wisdom? Did you already do this and I missed it?
If your town and you want to win this then give me this little nugget. But your scum so I understand your dilemma.
No because that would give the scum time to plan things out.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
His argument boils down to: "Hey guys, I know I've done nothing of value all game, and just tried to make a case on KK only to pretend it never happened after a single response, but let's lynch the probable town player because of things I can wait to reveal later and I'll talk my way out of his mislynch after I see what he is."