Swishh, what I meant with the last line was that I want to hold off voting while players are still away. I think getting this far out of rvs while some players still haven't posted anything is a mistake. This game has got going fast for half the game while I have essentially null reads due to lack of posting from the other half. Therefore I don't feel like I have any clue who is and who isn't scum and I don't want to lay down my vote. But if makes you happy here have a FoS Swishh
Swishh, what I meant with the last line was that I want to hold off voting while players are still away. I think getting this far out of rvs while some players still haven't posted anything is a mistake. This game has got going fast for half the game while I have essentially null reads due to lack of posting from the other half. Therefore I don't feel like I have any clue who is and who isn't scum and I don't want to lay down my vote. But if makes you happy here have a FoS Swishh
Yeah, I'm starting realise I could explain something to you a hundred different ways and your either unwilling or unable to understand. If a vote is all you know then here you go:
Alright, so I still like my vote on Zem and although I'll be changing my vote at the end of this for reasons I'll explain, I would support a lynch of either player.
Don't tell me how to play. I obviously don't come from the same land of hugs and kisses that you do.
If you'd read the sign up thread at all you would know that I am very aware it's LBW's first game.
This response to UA reads like over-compensatory aggression to me. As the thread progresses, I think Zem's posts force aggression and dismissiveness in an attempt to appear comfortable.
The old "he's scum because he doesn't play like me!" routine hey?
Zem's a sharp guy and I don't think he's actually curious about Lone with the approach he took.
Explain with a few examples please.
I discussed how I don't think that you asked the question as a question, you asked it as an accusation. Saying that my argument is that you don't play like me isn't an accurate representation of the argument. My point isn't "I'd have done it this way and you did it another." My point is that you approached a brand new player in a way that didn't seem curious to me. I think that your goal was to make her appear scummy rather than to genuinely question her reasoning. I think that your approach would have been more inquisitive and less accusatory otherwise.
What are the examples you're asking for in relation to?
Do people on mtgs really care that much about tone as a scum hunting tool or am I being trolled?
This also attempts to be dismissive by undermining the importance of tone. Tone and deciphering a player's intent are important tools in scum hunting, IMO, and your approach with LWB seemed to have an agenda rather than to be asking a question for the purpose of understanding her motive. If the goal was actually to apply pressure rather than to be inquisitive, then not only does that tact seem questionable in this situation but there was no vote to add pressure. That's not me saying that you play differently than I do, that's me thinking that you were trying to throw suspicion onto her rather than really wanting to know her purpose for posting as she did, and wanting to do so without committing to a vote.
But Sir Karn is where I want my vote right now as his behavior is worse. Sarcasm and abrasiveness aren't tells with Karn from what I've seen/read, but the content is.
I'm not digging DCIII either. You're expansion on why you're voting zeman doesn't make sense, and zeman has made the best point in the game so far.
And RVS has been over, UA Lives. So why did you make a bad vote for a silly reason?
Thinking about it again, I really hate this post for so many reasons. One, the vote on Lonewolf there is awful. Zem had already applied pressure in an accusatory way, so why not wait to see her response prior to adding a vote there? Karn's played enough to know that a post like that from a new player isn't necessarily scummy, so I'd expect him to be more inquisitive about her intentions as well rather than defaulting to pressure. I think his intent there was to make her nervous in hopes that she'd seem that way in her responses. Furthermore, most of Karn's post takes issues with UA and myself and yet he places his vote on Lone prior to seeing what she had to say. It's like he wanted to add credence to Zem's stance with his vote. Also in this post he says that Zeman made "the best point in the game so far." This is the 19th post of the game. That's embellishment and over-compensation as there had hardly been any points made in the game at that point. Contrast with how Nacho approached it with asking me a question about why my view on Zem differed from his or with how Swishh addressed it by stating that he didn't see an issue with Zem's question. Much more natural reactions than saying that it was "the best point in the game" 19 posts in. That seems like a forced attempt to add weight to Zem's post.
To note: It is curious that Zem didn't put his vote there.
I would expect that because of the reason I said above. LoneWolf is a new player and there are many reasons she could have posted as she did. Zem had already addressed her comment, adding your vote was pointless other than to create more pressure on a new player. If you'd have waited to see her reaction, and then felt the need to vote, I could have bought it more readily.
Also, note here that you say it's curious that Zem didn't vote there but then, later, you agree with his post where, in defending his actions, he says that he doesn't play the same as me. So you agree that it's odd he didn't vote but then when he tries to dismiss my argument and say that he doesn't play like me, you straight barn it without any additional concern. I'll point the post out further down.
Again, over-compensatory praise for Zem's point on LWB. A great point? At best it was a fair question to a new player, at worst, it's what I allege. It certainly wasn't a point deserving of this level of approval. I've read some Town Karn and Town Karn is typically more suspicious of everyone and isn't so quick to frame other players in such a positive light off of so little.
The old "he's scum because he doesn't play like me!" routine hey?
^^
This is the point I referenced earlier. You agreed that it was "curious" that he didn't vote but when his rebuttal was simply that he didn't play like me, you straight barned it. Where did the curiosity go and why are you barning another player's defense of himself so early, especially when the defense was just a dismissive one-liner that didn't really address the point? Where's your authentic curiosity around Zem's alignment?
I also think that some of Karn's points against UA and LWB are cherry-picking to try to make them look worse. For example, his reaction when LWB says her mentor told her about the possibility of being mod-killed for repost is to be quick to point out that she'd said he wasn't around saying, "What a different story this is." Then, when she gives him the answer that he told her about that beforehand, he says that it doesn't make sense why she thought she'd get modkilled for the repost. It seems pretty clear to me that she doesn't understand much about the game and was having a genuine moment of confusion and it makes a lot of sense that she could have interpreted reposting being an issue instead of editing the post - I think that Karn went from thinking he could exploit one point from the mentor thing to deciding that he'd press a different point once the first had a reasonable explanation. Otherwise, why not initially bring up that the repost part didn't make sense when he called out the mentor contradiction?
He asked UA why he was voting for him when he thought he was scum when UA was already voting for Zem and it was clear that he thought Zem was scum.
Quibbling with LWB and UA about "Band wagon" vs. "Others and multiple people" when the intent behind what they were trying to say was clear - LWB was using the term "band wagon" to mean that the momentum was on her and UA was trying to point out that Zem's post wasn't universally acclaimed as being good when asking Karn to explain why it was great.
It's like he's focused on trying to point out contradiction for the sake of making that player look bad without being more focused on the bigger picture of whether there's scum motivation behind their actions.
at the time Rodemy had posted nothing and thus doesn't deserve to get three votes
Obviously he hasn't played with me before... i totally deserved all those votes.
Obviously I haven't. Why would you deserve three votes when you hadn't done anything in the game? There is no way for any of the players to know your alignment.
Alright, so I still like my vote on Zem and although I'll be changing my vote at the end of this for reasons I'll explain, I would support a lynch of either player.
Don't tell me how to play. I obviously don't come from the same land of hugs and kisses that you do.
If you'd read the sign up thread at all you would know that I am very aware it's LBW's first game.
This response to UA reads like over-compensatory aggression to me. As the thread progresses, I think Zem's posts force aggression and dismissiveness in an attempt to appear comfortable.
I get this a lot, however, the Grim Lavamancer title isn't just an accolade, its descriptive. I really was incredibly angry at the hypocrisy demonstrated.
The old "he's scum because he doesn't play like me!" routine hey?
Zem's a sharp guy and I don't think he's actually curious about Lone with the approach he took.
Explain with a few examples please.
I discussed how I don't think that you asked the question as a question, you asked it as an accusation. Saying that my argument is that you don't play like me isn't an accurate representation of the argument. My point isn't "I'd have done it this way and you did it another." My point is that you approached a brand new player in a way that didn't seem curious to me. I think that your goal was to make her appear scummy rather than to genuinely question her reasoning. I think that your approach would have been more inquisitive and less accusatory otherwise.
What are the examples you're asking for in relation to?
I am obviously asking for examples of how I am a sharp guy - that sort of language posits in the mind of the reader a certain image of me that would be favourable to your argument. But we have never interacted before - so how can you say that I am clever? Explain.
The problem with your description of my question, hence the comment about our play style, is that you assume it is accusatory. It wasn't aggressively so, but yes, I was expecting an explanation. You;re making the error of assuming that everyone thinks and processes like you do, and that simply isn't the case.
Do people on mtgs really care that much about tone as a scum hunting tool or am I being trolled?
This also attempts to be dismissive by undermining the importance of tone. Tone and deciphering a player's intent are important tools in scum hunting, IMO, and your approach with LWB seemed to have an agenda rather than to be asking a question for the purpose of understanding her motive. If the goal was actually to apply pressure rather than to be inquisitive, then not only does that tact seem questionable in this situation but there was no vote to add pressure. That's not me saying that you play differently than I do, that's me thinking that you were trying to throw suspicion onto her rather than really wanting to know her purpose for posting as she did, and wanting to do so without committing to a vote.
I come from DTR; we don't have the same approach to voting for pressure that MTGS seems to (from what I am being told in this thread). That's OK, I will just have to adapt. My question's purpose, which I feel you have missed in your rush to paint me as scummy (that is ironic); is to draw attention to content over form - UAL was focussing on my tone (the form) as opposed to the purpose and effect (content).
I have not, but I am glad our allegiance, I mean...friendship can stay in tact despite my failings godfather...I mean....Karn.
Also, I've found that when people jokingly refer to themselves as scum, more often than not they are (or at least aren't Town).
Good for you. What about dismissive tones?
But Sir Karn is where I want my vote right now as his behavior is worse. Sarcasm and abrasiveness aren't tells with Karn from what I've seen/read, but the content is.
I'm not digging DCIII either. You're expansion on why you're voting zeman doesn't make sense, and zeman has made the best point in the game so far.
And RVS has been over, UA Lives. So why did you make a bad vote for a silly reason?
Thinking about it again, I really hate this post for so many reasons. One, the vote on Lonewolf there is awful. Zem had already applied pressure in an accusatory way, so why not wait to see her response prior to adding a vote there?
Agree. I don't understand the rush to vote that players have here.
Karn's played enough to know that a post like that from a new player isn't necessarily scummy, so I'd expect him to be more inquisitive about her intentions as well rather than defaulting to pressure. I think his intent there was to make her nervous in hopes that she'd seem that way in her responses.
I like the mindset of this analysis, but I would disagree with your position. I really like pressure on new players - some people take to mafia really well, others not well at all. An experienced player like Karn is well equipped to discern the difference between scum under pressure and noob Town. It certainly isn't a fool proof approach, but to suggest it is scummy is a bit far reaching.
Furthermore, most of Karn's post takes issues with UA and myself and yet he places his vote on Lone prior to seeing what she had to say. It's like he wanted to add credence to Zem's stance with his vote. Also in this post he says that Zeman made "the best point in the game so far." This is the 19th post of the game. That's embellishment and over-compensation as there had hardly been any points made in the game at that point. Contrast with how Nacho approached it with asking me a question about why my view on Zem differed from his or with how Swishh addressed it by stating that he didn't see an issue with Zem's question. Much more natural reactions than saying that it was "the best point in the game" 19 posts in. That seems like a forced attempt to add weight to Zem's post.
Good, but you yourself are prone to quite a bit of inflated language. Pot meet Kettle.
To note: It is curious that Zem didn't put his vote there.
I would expect that because of the reason I said above. LoneWolf is a new player and there are many reasons she could have posted as she did. Zem had already addressed her comment, adding your vote was pointless other than to create more pressure on a new player. If you'd have waited to see her reaction, and then felt the need to vote, I could have bought it more readily.
Also, note here that you say it's curious that Zem didn't vote there but then, later, you agree with his post where, in defending his actions, he says that he doesn't play the same as me. So you agree that it's odd he didn't vote but then when he tries to dismiss my argument and say that he doesn't play like me, you straight barn it without any additional concern. I'll point the post out further down.
Again, over-compensatory praise for Zem's point on LWB. A great point? At best it was a fair question to a new player, at worst, it's what I allege. It certainly wasn't a point deserving of this level of approval. I've read some Town Karn and Town Karn is typically more suspicious of everyone and isn't so quick to frame other players in such a positive light off of so little.
See, this is you doing exactly what you allege Karn is doing. Just because you don't think it is great doesn't mean another player cannot. I personally don't think it was a great point, just something of interest, but that you're so focused on arguing over an adjective makes me think you're trying to distract Town - you're not discussing anything of relevance.
The old "he's scum because he doesn't play like me!" routine hey?
^^
This is the point I referenced earlier. You agreed that it was "curious" that he didn't vote but when his rebuttal was simply that he didn't play like me, you straight barned it. Where did the curiosity go and why are you barning another player's defense of himself so early, especially when the defense was just a dismissive one-liner that didn't really address the point? Where's your authentic curiosity around Zem's alignment?
Good.
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@ Rodemy - when I was reading through the player list, your name stuck out in my memory. I haven't played a proper game with anyone here (I have played the start of a Day 1 with swishh) so that was enough for me; I normally like to do something silly or crazy in RVS (eg: fake claim day cop) but with a group of people who don't know me that's just going to be a huge distraction.
Why so worried about an RVS vote?
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If anything I think zeman's willingness to be the third on Rodemy's "wagon" is indicative of town, not scum. Were he scum it seems like he would have been wary of how such a vote would be perceived (just look at what has ensued) and steered clear. Confirm/deny?
I hadn't considered that. I think it's a good point.
I feel a lot of his other plays have been questionable though. I don't know why town would want to be so highly volatile. I also feel like karn and zeman are backing up each others posts based on very little. The whole "great post" thing was over-blown by Karn (as even zeman mentioned).
Karn's quick vote on the new player seemed strangely placed. He puts pressure on her with a post, doesn't wait for her to give any response and then votes for her. WHy not at least wait to extract some information first and then vote for her if he feels it's necessary?
I hadn't considered that. I think it's a good point.
I feel a lot of his other plays have been questionable though. I don't know why town would want to be so highly volatile. I also feel like karn and zeman are backing up each others posts based on very little. The whole "great post" thing was over-blown by Karn (as even zeman mentioned).
Karn's quick vote on the new player seemed strangely placed. He puts pressure on her with a post, doesn't wait for her to give any response and then votes for her. WHy not at least wait to extract some information first and then vote for her if he feels it's necessary?
I do think karn is scum, I have one reservation though. In his Mafia stats page he appears to have been lynched before night two in over 50% of his shown games. Most of those games he was in fact town. So there is the possibility that he's doing something wrong in the early part of the game while playing town, again I have't played with him before so I don't know if this is the case but I think it's something worth considering for me to be fair.
I think Antny made a week attempt to make Tom look bad was...bad. This is fortified by his backpedaling when he realized had absolutely no case.
I think zeman is town.
I don't know about Karn yet.
Right let's try and properly catch up on everything I missed on Day 1.
Although I didn't think much of Zem's early question I like post 45.
On the other hand, I don't like the second half of Karn's 49 because he A) refuses to explain to UAlives why he thought the post was great, and for his attack on LWB. Her asking how she was supposed to act seems more like a newbie tell (I found myself asking the same thing in Walking Dead Mafia) and the first pages should clearly establish to anyone reading that she is new to the game. His follow up attack over LWB liking a point is also dodgy IMO in 68. Jesus, Karn's 83 is also silly.
Yeah, UAlive and Zem seem to get a little too personal with their back and forth after that. I can't tell whether UAlives refuses to answer questions cause he's scum or whether he's pissed off over some perceived slight, but I agree with Zem that he should answer them (it certainly isn't normal for town to not want to expand on why they think someone might be scum). I disagree with UAlives point that Karn and Zem are scumbuddies and in fact giving the obvious buddying I would be very surprised if they were both scum together. UAlive has really tunnelled hard on Karn and Zem by the looks of it.
And then we get to where I came back into play yesterday. Not much there after all when we get past the slapfighting. Certain playstyles don't mesh well it seems.
It's obvious why it's a good point. Self-conscious. Decides 10 minutes after the naked vote that she needs to throw a reason there.
The internet problem is a plausible story, so you can discount the point if you want. But there are now more points against her and they continue building, so much as that we don't even need the original point if you want to just believe the excuse (which is perfectly fine).
If that was the real reason you were waiting, you could have been answering over two days ago. Get to work kid.
But Sir Karn is where I want my vote right now as his behavior is worse. Sarcasm and abrasiveness aren't tells with Karn from what I've seen/read, but the content is.
I'm not digging DCIII either. You're expansion on why you're voting zeman doesn't make sense, and zeman has made the best point in the game so far.
And RVS has been over, UA Lives. So why did you make a bad vote for a silly reason?
Thinking about it again, I really hate this post for so many reasons. One, the vote on Lonewolf there is awful. Zem had already applied pressure in an accusatory way, so why not wait to see her response prior to adding a vote there? Karn's played enough to know that a post like that from a new player isn't necessarily scummy, so I'd expect him to be more inquisitive about her intentions as well rather than defaulting to pressure. I think his intent there was to make her nervous in hopes that she'd seem that way in her responses. Furthermore, most of Karn's post takes issues with UA and myself and yet he places his vote on Lone prior to seeing what she had to say. It's like he wanted to add credence to Zem's stance with his vote. Also in this post he says that Zeman made "the best point in the game so far." This is the 19th post of the game. That's embellishment and over-compensation as there had hardly been any points made in the game at that point. Contrast with how Nacho approached it with asking me a question about why my view on Zem differed from his or with how Swishh addressed it by stating that he didn't see an issue with Zem's question. Much more natural reactions than saying that it was "the best point in the game" 19 posts in. That seems like a forced attempt to add weight to Zem's post.
You can look at pretty much any of my games, I throw my votes wherever I want before anyone answers a question.
My intent was to put pressure and see how she handled the pressure.
And it was the best point in the game so far. Sure, there weren't many points yet, but the statement is true.
If I had noticed the 10 minute delay myself I'd have made the point myself and claimed it to be the best.
To note: It is curious that Zem didn't put his vote there.
I would expect that because of the reason I said above. LoneWolf is a new player and there are many reasons she could have posted as she did. Zem had already addressed her comment, adding your vote was pointless other than to create more pressure on a new player. If you'd have waited to see her reaction, and then felt the need to vote, I could have bought it more readily.
Also, note here that you say it's curious that Zem didn't vote there but then, later, you agree with his post where, in defending his actions, he says that he doesn't play the same as me. So you agree that it's odd he didn't vote but then when he tries to dismiss my argument and say that he doesn't play like me, you straight barn it without any additional concern. I'll point the post out further down.
It's not pointless at all. It was to get reactions, which is the point of just about everything in Mafia.
Just because a player is new doesn't mean that they can't be scum - that's a fatal mistake too many players make.
Your second point - me saying it's curious that he didn't vote, then later agreeing that just because he plays differently doesn't make him scum - what's wrong with that? Or maybe the better question: What's scummy about that? Go into detail please.
Again, over-compensatory praise for Zem's point on LWB. A great point? At best it was a fair question to a new player, at worst, it's what I allege. It certainly wasn't a point deserving of this level of approval. I've read some Town Karn and Town Karn is typically more suspicious of everyone and isn't so quick to frame other players in such a positive light off of so little.
I really do think the point was/is great, and when people keep asking about it, I'll keep giving the same response. It's not like I'd run around repeating it all by myself, but others kept bringing it up, and I stood my stance.
And it seems you have not read a lot of Town Karn. There are certain things that make me trust a person almost immediately - not that I'll tell anyone what those things are, but if you read some of my past games (more recently especially, as I've gotten better at the game), you'll see that it happens.
The old "he's scum because he doesn't play like me!" routine hey?
^^
This is the point I referenced earlier. You agreed that it was "curious" that he didn't vote but when his rebuttal was simply that he didn't play like me, you straight barned it. Where did the curiosity go and why are you barning another player's defense of himself so early, especially when the defense was just a dismissive one-liner that didn't really address the point? Where's your authentic curiosity around Zem's alignment?
I like Zeman's style and he's very townie.
I'm also fond of dismissive one-liners as you may find.
I also think that some of Karn's points against UA and LWB are cherry-picking to try to make them look worse. For example, his reaction when LWB says her mentor told her about the possibility of being mod-killed for repost is to be quick to point out that she'd said he wasn't around saying, "What a different story this is." Then, when she gives him the answer that he told her about that beforehand, he says that it doesn't make sense why she thought she'd get modkilled for the repost. It seems pretty clear to me that she doesn't understand much about the game and was having a genuine moment of confusion and it makes a lot of sense that she could have interpreted reposting being an issue instead of editing the post - I think that Karn went from thinking he could exploit one point from the mentor thing to deciding that he'd press a different point once the first had a reasonable explanation. Otherwise, why not initially bring up that the repost part didn't make sense when he called out the mentor contradiction?
Asking about one part at a time keeps the questions clear and gives less ways for the person I'm questioning to try and squirm out of it. I also don't always want the person to know where I'm going before I see what their answer is to the first part.
Quibbling with LWB and UA about "Band wagon" vs. "Others and multiple people" when the intent behind what they were trying to say was clear - LWB was using the term "band wagon" to mean that the momentum was on her and UA was trying to point out that Zem's post wasn't universally acclaimed as being good when asking Karn to explain why it was great.
It's like he's focused on trying to point out contradiction for the sake of making that player look bad without being more focused on the bigger picture of whether there's scum motivation behind their actions.
When did I quibble with LWB over the use of "Band wagon"? I thought that was someone else?
As for UA on "Others" and "Multiple people" he used those terms over and over to try and build up his point to larger-than-reality proportions, as the entire time he was repeating those, it was actually just you (DCIII). Hell, even the person the point was about (LWB) thought the point was good.
UAL was lying to try and prove a point, and I wasn't going to let that go.
Note: Votecounts will list wagons in the order they arose, and votes in the order they were placed.
Note: I want to reiterate: any flavor I include in opening scenes, twilight/dusk, or votecount scenes is for pure reading pleasure and should not be relied upon when making game decisions.
Due to real life issues and the change of the website I cannot dedicate the time for this game. I use to spend most of my time playing at work but Curse servers are blocked by my works Security network. Never had any problems before. So sorry for the issues and going to ask Mod to replace me.
Due to real life issues and the change of the website I cannot dedicate the time for this game. I use to spend most of my time playing at work but Curse servers are blocked by my works Security network. Never had any problems before. So sorry for the issues and going to ask Mod to replace me.
@Mod-Please replace, sorry for the trouble
Thank you for letting us know; I will look for a replacement.
I'm going to step away from this game. Rereading (or doing as much of a reread as I can right now) we seem to have half the town tunnelling (myself included) while half the town either haven't posted or have barely posted. LBW comes across as just nervous and new. I can't untangle the UAL, Kran, Zem stuff but it looks too heated for sure.
As for the guys going after me, I doubt their all scum, as it's unlikely a whole scum team would focus on a single player this early.
*snippity snip snip snippity snip snip.. look at Rodemy GOOOOOOO
Okay.. First you call us "the town" idk scumslip? THEN..you change "half the town" to "not all of them are scum" this is a strange mindset. Calling people town and THEN trying to figure out who is scum. I might be wrong...
at the time Rodemy had posted nothing and thus doesn't deserve to get three votes
Obviously he hasn't played with me before... i totally deserved all those votes.
Obviously I haven't. Why would you deserve three votes when you hadn't done anything in the game? There is no way for any of the players to know your alignment.
It is a common theme in the games i play in to suspect me as scum early on.. and Karns vote made me lul. I missed you son <3
@ Rodemy - when I was reading through the player list, your name stuck out in my memory. I haven't played a proper game with anyone here (I have played the start of a Day 1 with swishh) so that was enough for me; I normally like to do something silly or crazy in RVS (eg: fake claim day cop) but with a group of people who don't know me that's just going to be a huge distraction.
Why so worried about an RVS vote?
Never said i was worried.. Interesting answer though.
If anything I think zeman's willingness to be the third on Rodemy's "wagon" is indicative of town, not scum. Were he scum it seems like he would have been wary of how such a vote would be perceived (just look at what has ensued) and steered clear. Confirm/deny?
Willingness? He was the second person to vote me. Not the third. Tom was the third. Can you point me to his willingness?
I'm not digging DCIII either. You're expansion on why you're voting zeman doesn't make sense, and zeman has made the best point in the game so far.
Lone Wolf is in her first game. Zem does know that because they were chatting about it in the sign up thread. As a first time player, Lone could have posted as she did as self-conscious scum, but there are also many other reasons that she could have done so.
If Zem was interested in knowing what she was up to, I would have expected something like, "Lone Wolf, why did you add an explanation onto your RVS 10 minute later?" or something like that, which invites an explanation and shows curiosity.
Instead, he posted what he posted which is more of an accusation disguised as a question. Tonally, it's much different. I'd expect him to show more curiosity around a first time player rather than the tone he took and if he really thought that applying pressure early on was the best tact, I'd have expected a vote.
Zem's a sharp guy and I don't think he's actually curious about Lone with the approach he took.
Karn, I'd also expect you to show more curiosity around Lone to see what she says/how she acts moving forward rather than now throwing your vote on and defending Zem.
I actually like this post from DC. Good analysis of Zem. *clap clap*
He may not have been aware it was her first game but he could at least lighten up a bit.
"He could at least lighten up a bit."
That was your reason. Not what you are saying now.
Excuse me? I said "he could at least lighten up a bit" and then I said he was overly aggressive. Those mean the same thing. So yes, it is what I'm saying now.
Not exactly the same, and saying "he could lighten up" is not a reason to vote someone legitimately when you're claiming that it is.
Do you see all signs of aggression as scum behaviour all the time? Because that's what I'm getting out of this.
The question I have for you Karn is why are you so interested in defending a more veteran player jumping on a first-timer?
Because his point is great.
Actually it is the same, but I'm not going to argue over nothing.
No, I don't see all signs of aggression as reasons to vote for someone, nor did I claim that. I do think if someone is jumping on a player right from the get go that it's a good thing to watch, often scum some their feathers early by fake scum-hunting at strange moments.
"Because his point is great"? Are you trolling?
Explain yourself, why is his point "great"?
And here is where Anty loses me. Super defensive, and asking a very dumb question. It was obvious why it was a good point. 10 minutes after the vote, she posts a reason.. it DOES seem like cautious scum. It looks like you are just trying to pick something to cast suspicion on Karn.
I am torn on a read from DC. Karn seems to be making good Karny points.. while Ua Lives is just blasting off the deep end..
Okay so this is too long of a post because the quoting system sucks... i'll be back with more tomorrow.
For now:
UA Lives and Anty are my top two scumspects (copyright Iso)
and Zem and DCII are null.
Karn is towny to me and swishh from what i have skimmed through SEEMS to be town..
Wolfie seems scummy from that one post that has been disected the entire game so far.
and that is all from me
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But with the sir karn post.. the **** was i thinking?
I was kind of using those two quotes the first time to make a point that em DID make a good point.. but the second time was after i had read what i had quoted before..
So coming back to it... oh there we go.. I meant to write: It took me away from DC's side of the argument and onto Zems..
Guhhhh... brain farts.
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I'm quite convinced that DCIII is town, his big post is very vocal and thorough about his opinion/read on Sir Karn and Zeman. I don't see it coming from scum.
That said I don't agree with him. Zeman feels like town to me, Karn as well to a lesser extent.
Top pick for lynch is Antny, second place goes to UAL, especially after his last post.
I like that DCII is standing his ground, even when there are problems with his arguments. That's a good Town tell imo; cautious scum are often too compliant and concede the point whereas DCII stuck to his guns.
I need to re-read antny.
UAL needs to answer questions. Like Now.
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I like that DCII is standing his ground, even when there are problems with his arguments. That's a good Town tell imo; cautious scum are often too compliant and concede the point whereas DCII stuck to his guns.
I need to re-read antny.
UAL needs to answer questions. Like Now.
Okay so i can't sleep and i need to reply to this really quick:
If you think UA is scum, why does it matter if he answers the questions?
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Vote: Antny
Is this a wagon?
I fail to see what's wrong with you voting me.
Sure looks like it.
Yeah, I'm starting realise I could explain something to you a hundred different ways and your either unwilling or unable to understand. If a vote is all you know then here you go:
vote Swishh
That's what she said.
Obviously he hasn't played with me before... i totally deserved all those votes.
HI GAIS!
Miss me?
From the looks of all of it i do not like Anty. Super defensive.
But I would like to point out this vote right here.
I do not believe we played before.. I understand toms and Karns.. they know me.. We've never met..
Do tell me, why DID you vote me?
In addition to my previous points:
This response to UA reads like over-compensatory aggression to me. As the thread progresses, I think Zem's posts force aggression and dismissiveness in an attempt to appear comfortable.
I discussed how I don't think that you asked the question as a question, you asked it as an accusation. Saying that my argument is that you don't play like me isn't an accurate representation of the argument. My point isn't "I'd have done it this way and you did it another." My point is that you approached a brand new player in a way that didn't seem curious to me. I think that your goal was to make her appear scummy rather than to genuinely question her reasoning. I think that your approach would have been more inquisitive and less accusatory otherwise.
What are the examples you're asking for in relation to?
This also attempts to be dismissive by undermining the importance of tone. Tone and deciphering a player's intent are important tools in scum hunting, IMO, and your approach with LWB seemed to have an agenda rather than to be asking a question for the purpose of understanding her motive. If the goal was actually to apply pressure rather than to be inquisitive, then not only does that tact seem questionable in this situation but there was no vote to add pressure. That's not me saying that you play differently than I do, that's me thinking that you were trying to throw suspicion onto her rather than really wanting to know her purpose for posting as she did, and wanting to do so without committing to a vote.
Also, I've found that when people jokingly refer to themselves as scum, more often than not they are (or at least aren't Town).
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But Sir Karn is where I want my vote right now as his behavior is worse. Sarcasm and abrasiveness aren't tells with Karn from what I've seen/read, but the content is.
Thinking about it again, I really hate this post for so many reasons. One, the vote on Lonewolf there is awful. Zem had already applied pressure in an accusatory way, so why not wait to see her response prior to adding a vote there? Karn's played enough to know that a post like that from a new player isn't necessarily scummy, so I'd expect him to be more inquisitive about her intentions as well rather than defaulting to pressure. I think his intent there was to make her nervous in hopes that she'd seem that way in her responses. Furthermore, most of Karn's post takes issues with UA and myself and yet he places his vote on Lone prior to seeing what she had to say. It's like he wanted to add credence to Zem's stance with his vote. Also in this post he says that Zeman made "the best point in the game so far." This is the 19th post of the game. That's embellishment and over-compensation as there had hardly been any points made in the game at that point. Contrast with how Nacho approached it with asking me a question about why my view on Zem differed from his or with how Swishh addressed it by stating that he didn't see an issue with Zem's question. Much more natural reactions than saying that it was "the best point in the game" 19 posts in. That seems like a forced attempt to add weight to Zem's post.
I would expect that because of the reason I said above. LoneWolf is a new player and there are many reasons she could have posted as she did. Zem had already addressed her comment, adding your vote was pointless other than to create more pressure on a new player. If you'd have waited to see her reaction, and then felt the need to vote, I could have bought it more readily.
Also, note here that you say it's curious that Zem didn't vote there but then, later, you agree with his post where, in defending his actions, he says that he doesn't play the same as me. So you agree that it's odd he didn't vote but then when he tries to dismiss my argument and say that he doesn't play like me, you straight barn it without any additional concern. I'll point the post out further down.
Again, over-compensatory praise for Zem's point on LWB. A great point? At best it was a fair question to a new player, at worst, it's what I allege. It certainly wasn't a point deserving of this level of approval. I've read some Town Karn and Town Karn is typically more suspicious of everyone and isn't so quick to frame other players in such a positive light off of so little.
This is the point I referenced earlier. You agreed that it was "curious" that he didn't vote but when his rebuttal was simply that he didn't play like me, you straight barned it. Where did the curiosity go and why are you barning another player's defense of himself so early, especially when the defense was just a dismissive one-liner that didn't really address the point? Where's your authentic curiosity around Zem's alignment?
I also think that some of Karn's points against UA and LWB are cherry-picking to try to make them look worse. For example, his reaction when LWB says her mentor told her about the possibility of being mod-killed for repost is to be quick to point out that she'd said he wasn't around saying, "What a different story this is." Then, when she gives him the answer that he told her about that beforehand, he says that it doesn't make sense why she thought she'd get modkilled for the repost. It seems pretty clear to me that she doesn't understand much about the game and was having a genuine moment of confusion and it makes a lot of sense that she could have interpreted reposting being an issue instead of editing the post - I think that Karn went from thinking he could exploit one point from the mentor thing to deciding that he'd press a different point once the first had a reasonable explanation. Otherwise, why not initially bring up that the repost part didn't make sense when he called out the mentor contradiction?
He asked UA why he was voting for him when he thought he was scum when UA was already voting for Zem and it was clear that he thought Zem was scum.
Quibbling with LWB and UA about "Band wagon" vs. "Others and multiple people" when the intent behind what they were trying to say was clear - LWB was using the term "band wagon" to mean that the momentum was on her and UA was trying to point out that Zem's post wasn't universally acclaimed as being good when asking Karn to explain why it was great.
It's like he's focused on trying to point out contradiction for the sake of making that player look bad without being more focused on the bigger picture of whether there's scum motivation behind their actions.
Unvote: Vote: Sir Karn
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
Obviously I haven't. Why would you deserve three votes when you hadn't done anything in the game? There is no way for any of the players to know your alignment.
I get this a lot, however, the Grim Lavamancer title isn't just an accolade, its descriptive. I really was incredibly angry at the hypocrisy demonstrated.
I am obviously asking for examples of how I am a sharp guy - that sort of language posits in the mind of the reader a certain image of me that would be favourable to your argument. But we have never interacted before - so how can you say that I am clever? Explain.
The problem with your description of my question, hence the comment about our play style, is that you assume it is accusatory. It wasn't aggressively so, but yes, I was expecting an explanation. You;re making the error of assuming that everyone thinks and processes like you do, and that simply isn't the case.
I come from DTR; we don't have the same approach to voting for pressure that MTGS seems to (from what I am being told in this thread). That's OK, I will just have to adapt. My question's purpose, which I feel you have missed in your rush to paint me as scummy (that is ironic); is to draw attention to content over form - UAL was focussing on my tone (the form) as opposed to the purpose and effect (content).
Good for you. What about dismissive tones?
Good.
Agree. I don't understand the rush to vote that players have here.
I like the mindset of this analysis, but I would disagree with your position. I really like pressure on new players - some people take to mafia really well, others not well at all. An experienced player like Karn is well equipped to discern the difference between scum under pressure and noob Town. It certainly isn't a fool proof approach, but to suggest it is scummy is a bit far reaching.
Good, but you yourself are prone to quite a bit of inflated language. Pot meet Kettle.
To be fair, your argument was silly.
See, this is you doing exactly what you allege Karn is doing. Just because you don't think it is great doesn't mean another player cannot. I personally don't think it was a great point, just something of interest, but that you're so focused on arguing over an adjective makes me think you're trying to distract Town - you're not discussing anything of relevance.
Good.
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Why so worried about an RVS vote?
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I feel a lot of his other plays have been questionable though. I don't know why town would want to be so highly volatile. I also feel like karn and zeman are backing up each others posts based on very little. The whole "great post" thing was over-blown by Karn (as even zeman mentioned).
Karn's quick vote on the new player seemed strangely placed. He puts pressure on her with a post, doesn't wait for her to give any response and then votes for her. WHy not at least wait to extract some information first and then vote for her if he feels it's necessary?
Do you think Karn is scum?
@Scarbo: What are your thoughts so far?
Why should Antny be lynched and what are your thoughts on karn+zeman?
I think zeman is town.
I don't know about Karn yet.
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I'm still waiting from your self-proclaimed "friend" to answer my question on why your point was "great".
It common for scum to joke around that they are scum-buddies like karn and zeman did. I've yet to see town ever do that.
Although I didn't think much of Zem's early question I like post 45.
On the other hand, I don't like the second half of Karn's 49 because he A) refuses to explain to UAlives why he thought the post was great, and for his attack on LWB. Her asking how she was supposed to act seems more like a newbie tell (I found myself asking the same thing in Walking Dead Mafia) and the first pages should clearly establish to anyone reading that she is new to the game. His follow up attack over LWB liking a point is also dodgy IMO in 68. Jesus, Karn's 83 is also silly.
Yeah, UAlive and Zem seem to get a little too personal with their back and forth after that. I can't tell whether UAlives refuses to answer questions cause he's scum or whether he's pissed off over some perceived slight, but I agree with Zem that he should answer them (it certainly isn't normal for town to not want to expand on why they think someone might be scum). I disagree with UAlives point that Karn and Zem are scumbuddies and in fact giving the obvious buddying I would be very surprised if they were both scum together. UAlive has really tunnelled hard on Karn and Zem by the looks of it.
And then we get to where I came back into play yesterday. Not much there after all when we get past the slapfighting. Certain playstyles don't mesh well it seems.
much wow.
so right.
If that was the real reason you were waiting, you could have been answering over two days ago. Get to work kid.
___________________________________________________________________
You can look at pretty much any of my games, I throw my votes wherever I want before anyone answers a question.
My intent was to put pressure and see how she handled the pressure.
And it was the best point in the game so far. Sure, there weren't many points yet, but the statement is true.
If I had noticed the 10 minute delay myself I'd have made the point myself and claimed it to be the best.
It's not pointless at all. It was to get reactions, which is the point of just about everything in Mafia.
Just because a player is new doesn't mean that they can't be scum - that's a fatal mistake too many players make.
Your second point - me saying it's curious that he didn't vote, then later agreeing that just because he plays differently doesn't make him scum - what's wrong with that? Or maybe the better question: What's scummy about that? Go into detail please.
I really do think the point was/is great, and when people keep asking about it, I'll keep giving the same response. It's not like I'd run around repeating it all by myself, but others kept bringing it up, and I stood my stance.
And it seems you have not read a lot of Town Karn. There are certain things that make me trust a person almost immediately - not that I'll tell anyone what those things are, but if you read some of my past games (more recently especially, as I've gotten better at the game), you'll see that it happens.
I like Zeman's style and he's very townie.
I'm also fond of dismissive one-liners as you may find.
Asking about one part at a time keeps the questions clear and gives less ways for the person I'm questioning to try and squirm out of it. I also don't always want the person to know where I'm going before I see what their answer is to the first part.
I actually thought UA's vote was still on Nacho at the time. I didn't remember him voting Zeman.
Thought I had a good catch.
When did I quibble with LWB over the use of "Band wagon"? I thought that was someone else?
As for UA on "Others" and "Multiple people" he used those terms over and over to try and build up his point to larger-than-reality proportions, as the entire time he was repeating those, it was actually just you (DCIII). Hell, even the person the point was about (LWB) thought the point was good.
UAL was lying to try and prove a point, and I wasn't going to let that go.
1. You don't know what hypocrisy means
2. You've deflected answering three times now
Unvote
Vote UA Lives
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Note: I want to reiterate: any flavor I include in opening scenes, twilight/dusk, or votecount scenes is for pure reading pleasure and should not be relied upon when making game decisions.
Votecount 1.1
====================================================
zemanjaski (1): UA lives
Antny223 (3): swishh, Tom, Sir Karn
Sir Karn (2): LoneWolfBlood, DCIII
swishh (1): Antny223
UA lives (1): zemanjaski
Please let me know if you see any mistakes.
With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch!
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@Mod-Please replace, sorry for the trouble
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Do you have what it takes to survive?
Not sure if one post 2 days ago counts?
Thank you for letting us know; I will look for a replacement.
It meets the technical definition of posting, and especially with the site revamp and associated issues, no prod will be issued quite yet.
Okay.. First you call us "the town" idk scumslip? THEN..you change "half the town" to "not all of them are scum" this is a strange mindset. Calling people town and THEN trying to figure out who is scum. I might be wrong...
It is a common theme in the games i play in to suspect me as scum early on.. and Karns vote made me lul. I missed you son <3
Never said i was worried.. Interesting answer though.
Willingness? He was the second person to vote me. Not the third. Tom was the third. Can you point me to his willingness?
I agree but i wanna focus on Zem right now.
Starting from the beginning, i am going to make notes..
Why did you decide to vote tom?
I agree with these two. It was a legit question.
Those are horrible reasons to vote someone.
Zem is off my radar now.. Moving along.
I actually like this post from DC. Good analysis of Zem. *clap clap*
Gah.. this turns my point of view back away from DCIII and back onto Zem...
And here is where Anty loses me. Super defensive, and asking a very dumb question. It was obvious why it was a good point. 10 minutes after the vote, she posts a reason.. it DOES seem like cautious scum. It looks like you are just trying to pick something to cast suspicion on Karn.
I am torn on a read from DC. Karn seems to be making good Karny points.. while Ua Lives is just blasting off the deep end..
Okay so this is too long of a post because the quoting system sucks... i'll be back with more tomorrow.
For now:
UA Lives and Anty are my top two scumspects (copyright Iso)
and Zem and DCII are null.
Karn is towny to me and swishh from what i have skimmed through SEEMS to be town..
Wolfie seems scummy from that one post that has been disected the entire game so far.
and that is all from me
Just saw this..
yeah why not?
UNVOTE
VOTE ANTNY
You also quoted UAL and then acted like it was Antny's.
Clarify please?
This multiquote system sucks...
I'll have to come back and clairify later. I need to get to bed.
I was kind of using those two quotes the first time to make a point that em DID make a good point.. but the second time was after i had read what i had quoted before..
So coming back to it... oh there we go.. I meant to write: It took me away from DC's side of the argument and onto Zems..
Guhhhh... brain farts.
That said I don't agree with him. Zeman feels like town to me, Karn as well to a lesser extent.
Top pick for lynch is Antny, second place goes to UAL, especially after his last post.
I need to re-read antny.
UAL needs to answer questions. Like Now.
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Okay so i can't sleep and i need to reply to this really quick:
If you think UA is scum, why does it matter if he answers the questions?
Why don't you think his responses would be relevant?
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Thought I had a good catch."
I never voted Nacho....what exactly are you talking about?
@zeman: If you have a question ask it and stop tunneling.