I do think bigtraine wasn't playing as well as he could have been. His questions I feel have differed slightly from the ones he asked in WWII. The rest of his play however does resemble his play from WWII, such as his questioning of everyone.
Not going to comment on him replacing out, as I don't like to question oog stuff.
Rhand is looking much better than his predecessor though.
Also, I'm wary of aethiest for his attack on fulcrum.
Comes at an odd time immediately after swishh and fulcrum both put pressure on bigtrainee.
Very agressive phrasing and loaded questions ruin an otherwise solid attack.
I'm getting mixed messages here. The attack is solid, but itn makes you weary.
Do you think this is an attempt at a counter wagon? Scum bussing scum? Because these are the vibes I'm getting from you about it.
Counterwagon.
I have no problems with the attack itself, it's all mostly valid points and questions.
What caught my interest is that the attack came after fulcrum went after swishh and switched to bigtrainee.
I can see swishh and AG Scum team together.
I don't like how AG passed over swishh for fulcrum doing the same thing, and I don't like how swishh is blatantly barning everything that hawk is saying.
Reading through the thread now, leaning town on atheist god and storyteller; to me they look like they're actively scum hunting.
I looked into Bigtraine's questions as directed by fulcrum and swishh, but nothing stuck out as inherently scummy. The post-RVS unvote might seem weird to some, or a new player I can appreciate the reasoning - infact for inexperienced town not wanting to cause a mislynch, I understand it.
I didn't like Swish's avoidance of questions early, or his flippant responses; however, I have never played with Swishh before so this might just be how he plays as town (is it just his demeanour?). I want to watch him more closely, as I could sense frustration with the questions directed towards him; which I think is something scum would exhibit; as town you would be more willing and helpful I would think.
Explosiveforce OMGUSing was a bit strange, but I won't make much of it.
Kind of null otherwise, need to read some more.
I look forward to seeing the interaction between 7hawk77 and others.
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Zemanjaski: Hides a good point on Explosiveforce in fluff (#15). His questioning of Deathjoey is quite good. I'm not a fan of early townclears without reasoning (Fulcrum), but that's not an alignment tell. Doesn't deliver the substance he promises. Please do.
That questioning of Joey would be in this post, yeah?
Why do you think there are scum on your wagon deathjoey? Isn't it a legitimate tactic to put pressure on someone early, run up a wagon and see how they react?
How is that quite good?
It shows that Zemanjaski is interested in Deathjoey's mindset.
He's exploring, not accusing, which is good.
Kosa: feels genuine in both his bad answer to Hawk's 'are you scum' question and the 'catch' of Azuriae. Don't think he's scum.
"I'm not a fan of early townclears without reasoning." Proceeds to clear Kosa based on four posts, with significantly stronger language than what zemanjaski used.
I do have reasoning for thinking Kosa is town. A genuine Kosa is not a scum!Kosa.
Fulcrum: I don't like how he votes Swishh after RVS to declare the vote as serious in a later post. The first vote should've been serious in the first place?
Why? Also, I'm a she.
Sorry about the gender. I'll try to remember :blush:
Your first vote on Swishh was cast after RVS. You gave no indication that it was not serious.
You seem like you could put out a very good case. Why are you piggy backing off of AG without even saying which points you agree with? Why not address my responses to AG?
I highlighted what I find to be the most important tells. I don't interfere in other people's discussions unless needed, and it's not needed: AG is handling it well.
What is it with you guys and the percentages? Bigtraine used them in Basic 79 and no one had a problem. But fine, I won't use them again if they're obfuscating my intent so much.
Using numbers shows a degree of disconnect with what you are saying: you avoid giving a real opinion and adding emotion.
It also gives you an easy way out when someone flips town: you leave an opening of X% that you are wrong.
Um scum candidates are swishh, fulcrum, and someone else who I haven't decided on yet, because Im haven't been properly reading. Swishh because it took him a long time just to justify his point, which reads "Oh I was oppurtunistic scum I've been caught, let's make some excuse and then concentrate on Bigtraine for a silly reason - I do distinctly remember in past games that everyone unvotes because RVS is over. . Fulcrum because he unvoted swishh for the silliest reason and that's all I can remember. I did see AG's post and I'm aware I might be kind of barning him.
Oh yeah, and Kosa, though that's changing . Kosa because I don't trust his response to 7hawk77. But his nex few posts were OK, so I'm not 100% sure on I need to reread eventually.
Yes, I thought that whole weak unvote vote from fulcrum off swishh indicates weak bussing to take suspicion away from swishh.
If I was going to choose who was more scum, it would probably be swishh. At an outside chance swishh is just fairly dense town (but Occam's Razor) while fulcrum's unvote on swishh to the next vote on, Bigtraine for weaker reasons than swishh, could be seen as throwing suspicion on every person he can so that he can net a mislynch on everyone later. But they're probably both scum anyways.
Your reasoning is silly because (the reasoning) was because of a really, really slow explanation that came after lots of scumminess (which I believe you even noted) from swishh. Unvoting him because he finally answered your question without even noting his precluding scumminess was something very unexpected and scummy to me. It felt like you were just finding access to argue your case against swishh.
The easiest explanation, for me, was that you were weakly bussing swishh. Is the term distancing? I think it's called distancing. Does that make more sense? I'm bad at mafia language apparently
II do think bigtraine wasn't playing as well as he could have been. His questions I feel have differed slightly from the ones he asked in WWII. The rest of his play however does resemble his play from WWII, such as his questioning of everyone.
Not going to comment on him replacing out, as I don't like to question oog stuff.
Rhand is looking much better than his predecessor though.
I highlighted what I find to be the most important tells. I don't interfere in other people's discussions unless needed, and it's not needed: AG is handling it well.
Your vote is interference against me. If you're going to attack me, I'd like you to actually address my responses to AG's points instead of just barning his initial case.
Using numbers shows a degree of disconnect with what you are saying: you avoid giving a real opinion and adding emotion.
It also gives you an easy way out when someone flips town: you leave an opening of X% that you are wrong.
Repeating that doesn't make it true. Did anyone who read the percentages not realize that I was calling Joey a slight scum read? Did they leave me any more of an out than "Joey is a slight scum read" would have? Why do my reads need to have "emotion"?
You're latching onto something that is representative of a playstyle rather than scumminess.
I really don't understand why everyone is accusing me of dodging questions. I answered exactly why I voted joey in 74 - then again in 80, 88, and 93.
Swishh: You dodged is posts 17, 19, 64, 72 and 77. 74 was the beginning of an explanation, but it wasn't detailed enough for me to understand what you were saying.
...
I'm in this weird position where I'm thinking of swishh as potential scum, but really liking the way he's pressuring people.
It takes me a long time to come to decisions about alignments usally, if I had to choose two townies now though, I'd have to go with 7hawk77 and Rhand I think.
Why did you post an immediate retraction if you actually did want me to ask someone a question?
You did the same thing to Bigtraine (Rhand) earlier after he claimed inexperience. I acknowledge that I am also inexperienced and now you're doing it to me.
Why lean on new players that are actually involved? What is the town mindset of that? You've been asking Rhand about me as well.
Its a pretty horrible question to ask someone. If they do as you say and you flip scum, then they look bad. If they don't do as you say, then you can argue they have an anti-town mindset.
I'll go along, I am town afterall, and I do like that you're actively asking questions.
______________________________________________________________
Rhand, can you explain why you think Kosa is town? In my read through I have noted only a small number of posts, all of which are devoid of content. He (she?) is going to post more soon, so how can you be moving to clear him already??
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Why lean on new players that are actually involved? What is the town mindset of that? You've been asking Rhand about me as well.
I asked you because it helps me read you. See post 147 for details. I asked Rhand about you to see if he's bull****ting his reads or if he actually believes them.
Its a pretty horrible question to ask someone. If they do as you say and you flip scum, then they look bad. If they don't do as you say, then you can argue they have an anti-town mindset.
... Why would you asking someone a question at my request make us look like scummates?
I'll go along, I am town afterall, and I do like that you're actively asking questions.
You like that I'm asking questions, but don't like the questions themselves, correct? I don't like that you felt the need to state your towniness.
Look, I'm not trying to bully you here, and I apologize if you interpreted it that way. I honestly didn't know that you're new. I try to be very confrontational on day one because it provokes people and I asked you to ask someone a question because while you are posting in the thread, you aren't really interacting with other players, which makes it more difficult to read you. Just try to react in a pro-town way (Unless you happen to be scum. Then, feel free to be as scummy as you like.), and I'm sure we'll get on fine.
[QUOTE=zemanjaski;/comments/12813484]Why did you post an immediate retraction if you actually did want me to ask someone a question?
What retraction? I was apologizing for misspelling your username.
Uh...sorry. When I read the statement, I read it as an apology for asking me to ask a question, as if you were stating that you had accidentally asked me to do so - hence my flippant "because you typed it". My mistake.
Why lean on new players that are actually involved? What is the town mindset of that? You've been asking Rhand about me as well.
I asked you because it helps me read you. See post 147 for details. I asked Rhand about you to see if he's bull****ting his reads or if he actually believes them.
Its a pretty horrible question to ask someone. If they do as you say and you flip scum, then they look bad. If they don't do as you say, then you can argue they have an anti-town mindset.
... Why would you asking someone a question at my request make us look like scummates?
I've not played much (this is my second game and the first is as of yet incomplete), but I have tried to read a few games through to look at what more experienced players argue, for example, the two Cross-Town games. One theme that seems to keep coming up is "pairing", wherein a mafia buddies up to a town so that if the mafia is killed, it will be easier for the mafia to argue a kill on the buddy-town.
To me, I think it is more effective to ask questions yourself, rather than to get others to do it for you - especially as you're much more experienced than I am. With that in mind, if I didn't already feel that you were town, my concern would be that you were asking questions to fill space more than to get answers; but I don't think that is the case here.
I'll go along, I am town afterall, and I do like that you're actively asking questions.
You like that I'm asking questions, but don't like the questions themselves, correct? I don't like that you felt the need to state your towniness.
Yeah pretty much. Again, my approach right now is very simplistic.
Look, I'm not trying to bully you here, and I apologize if you interpreted it that way. I honestly didn't know that you're new. I try to be very confrontational on day one because it provokes people and I asked you to ask someone a question because while you are posting in the thread, you aren't really interacting with other players, which makes it more difficult to read you. Just try to react in a pro-town way (Unless you happen to be scum. Then, feel free to be as scummy as you like.), and I'm sure we'll get on fine.
What mafia experience do you have?
Fair enough. I've been really busy the last few days with my next CFB article so I haven't been as active as I should be. Don't worry, I don't feel bullied and it is a good thing that you're actively pushing around for answers.
re: experience, answered above in a little more detail; this is my second game and the first is still ongoing.
:hugs:
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@zemanjaski: what do you think of my vote on explosiveforce?
Hola.
So I have gone back through your post #157 where you voted, then done a bit of extra reading of yours beyond that.
When I did my initial read through of the thread (prior to posting my reads list a few pages ago) I had you null; I liked that you were poking around, but I would agree with the others that it seemed that you were a bit dismissive / flippant in your responses that may have been avoiding giving answers (though you did clarify well eventually). Maybe that's how you play? Maybe you're trying to goad others into giving away more information via frustrating them? It seems like a good strategy to get town reads to help you narrow down on scum suspects I guess.
So that's my mindset going into your vote on explosiveforce in #157.
ps. feel free to point out faulty reasoning in the above.
Quote #1.
Explosiveforce (EF) lists his scum suspects, gives a bit of reasoning, but doesn't vote for anyone.
Do you feel that having your vote on someone is important to pressuring them into giving information? I don't personally. Voting certainly helps if there is a bit of momentum on someone, but at this time it is really just you; so by that reasoning I don't see too much issue with EF not voting for any of this suspects yet. I do find it weird that he finds Kosa suspicious after only 4 posts, all of which are basically void.
Quote #2.
EF's second post is bad though. He goes on at length about your scumminess, but still doesn't want to vote for you? His suspicous / accusations are much stronger now, so i think he should be actively pressuring you, and at this point a vote is a good signal of intent (he is still RVS me FYI).
I think this passage validates your voting and suspicion of him.
So yeah, I like your vote, consider my read changed from null to suspect on EF.
I am also learning that I need to read the interactions between others a lot more closely I will try to get my head into the game more from now on, thanks.
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It takes me a long time to come to decisions about alignments usally, if I had to choose two townies now though, I'd have to go with 7hawk77 and Rhand I think.
Mind linking what post stuck out to you that showed you a town mentality from me and Rhand?
Yes, non-committal suspicion is a scumtell. Saying that you are suspicious of several people without voting any of them is non-committal.
Whom do you think is scum?
I've got town reads on a few people;
AtheistGod
Fulcrum
Storyteller
Hawk (slightly)
Swishh (increasingly town, but not early)
The rest are mostly null, through not posting much. We're expecting more content from Condoms and Kosa soon; I also want to see how EF responds to our interaction and your vote on him.
I have an outstanding question for Rhand when he gets time.
When that info starts trickling in ill have more questions.
Thanks for the feedback.
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It takes me a long time to come to decisions about alignments usally, if I had to choose two townies now though, I'd have to go with 7hawk77 and Rhand I think.
Mind linking what post stuck out to you that showed you a town mentality from me and Rhand?
Thanks
I like Rhand's catch up post, But I now have Zem higher then him. Like what hes done now.
And theres no one post from you I could point as a smoking gun and see "Look, town" I feel your actively looking for scum. Thats the feeling I'm getting.
Its still early however. and I'd like to hear from Ex-force and Kapaca. I'd like to have something from him other then a naked FOS
My lack of care for this game is really really high. I might just ask for replacement, sorry.
I will attempt to send out some stuff before I go. First off, haven't voted because I just straight up forgot. I would vote now, but I feel like it wouldn't be fair for my replacement.
I don't know who to vote for, though. It's been, what, several extra pages and fulcrum has redeemed themselves fairly well, actively scum hunting with her "ask someone a question" which I think shows that fulcrum actively wants to get reads on people instead of being aggressively painting everyone scum. It's the phrasing, I guess, and even though the jump from Deathjoey to swishh back to no-one is still kind of suspect in my eyes, I really can't deny right now that fulcrum is showing her attempts to scum hunt. When you go "ask someone a question", that means that they're searching for reads and trying toget people more active - and it's something I can sympathize with. Scum just wouldn't do that, they don't actively search out reads.
Um, swishh's vote on me is a thing and not complete OMGUS, but I'm not sure what else has changed since my last vote on him. I see nothing that forgives his earlier behaviour in regards to making up reasoning for his vote on Deathjoey. I'm kind of biased but I don't see the exact reasoning of swishh's case, but that's irrelevant because I can't read, apparently. I'm non-committal because of the lack of vote that I forgot. Got it. Am I missing something here?
Also, troubled by the fact that a lot of what made swishh scum in my eyes was his interactions with fulcrum, who looks fairly town about now.
It's been enough time that I'm OK making a list of people in the game:
Rhand/Bigtraine: I still do not understand Bigtraine's case, but Rhand's reads are off to me. Whether that's because I disagree with them or because some of them are irrelevant - see my own, zeman, Azuriae - but that first post just reeked of off to me.
Also, all that text and Im not exactly sure what his second highest scum read is. I personally don't like that.
Condoms: has swag. I just like these people who come in, drop intent to vote and leave. It's just a thing. Yes, this is null.
Kosa: no content. Coupled with my early scum read, I don't like this. Would go for #1 scum.
storyteller: has he posted past Deathjoey saga? I do remember town posts from him, though. Would like a statement right about now.
7hawk77: Any other time, I would call scum on hawk because of his simple commentary but I'm getting town reads out of his fingers. Questions is important, etc etc. He's been consistently town so far because... as a feeling, I can't explain, but it might be due to the in-depth questions he asks. He questions people's tactics, I guess. Through a town perspective.
Zeman: posted more recently, I'm not sure if he's simply wordily barning swishh but I find it slightly suspect. He shows participation, so Null at best, though.
Raptor: Quiet, don't like it. I had Azuriae as town, but RR is running 7hawk's commentary but at a lower level that seems fairly scummy. Needs more post for a solid read, but leaning scum.
Deathjoey: ehhhhh. He seems like the type of guy that I can't read fairly well, but I haven't seen anything super scummy from him. Lean town.
AG: town, case on fulcrum is still a good thing. I said he was light and fluffy before, but ever since the case of fulcrum I like him a lot more.
Hm, if explosiveforce's replacement ever flips scum, this post is a goldmine.
I'm itching to analyse it, but there's nothing productive about making conclusions like that before someone flips.
Swishh: how sure are you of your read? Being non-committed isn't always a tell for new players. Him looking for people bussing /distancing each other often is a tell tho. It's the same tell I saw Deathjoey and Fulcrum committing.
@Fulcrum: Others don't tend to really read quotewars when they're not part of it, so I'm gonna avoid that.
Answers:
* Looking for unaligned pairs is good. Looking for teams doesn't work before one of them flips.
* I didn't write anything worth mentioning on Explosiveforce in my notes after that post
Is there anything I should've noted? (apart from what Swishh pointed out)
* I've played quite a lot of games with Kosa. He feels genuine. Low postcount is not a scumtell for him. It is a tell of something, but I'm not going to explain what.
* The vote looked serious
* I did not interfere with AG's case. Voting is not interference. I won't leech on AG's case just because you want me to. It's bad manners and can undermine AG's questioning.
* I'll drop the percentages thing for now. If it is indicative of play style for you, then that's noted for future games. (I'll need to see you do it as town tho before I take your word for that)
* The distraction is a bad excuse. Why would you allow yourself to get distracted from analysing a prime suspect's posts?
I don't like how you just did the 'ask someone a question' thing again.
So explosive said he forgot to vote but is currently voting zeman. Did he mean he forgot to try and place a real vote? This justification starting off the post bothers me.
If he forgot to actively participate, why not say he forgot to put the time in this game. I feel like the wording implies scum mindset.
So explosive said he forgot to vote but is currently voting zeman. Did he mean he forgot to try and place a real vote? This justification starting off the post bothers me.
If he forgot to actively participate, why not say he forgot to put the time in this game. I feel like the wording implies scum mindset.
I got the same feeling from that post.
I didn't notice the vote thing. That's a good catch, especially considering he calls zem null in his reads.
Its not so much the RVs vote, its the wording that he forgot to do an actual vote. Its like he meant to put on the facade to have an actual vote.
If he was town, I think he would have just said he meant to spend more time analyzing and forgot about the game. Saying he forgot to vote is like saying he forgot how to pretend to be town as scum.
It's sad that he makes a post like this just when he wants to be replaced.
I would've liked to see him respond to that, and we can't ask that from whoever replaces in for him
I don't think Bigtraine read as scum to begin with; Rhand definitely feels more town to me to though.
RE: Kosa / Condoms; they're both experienced players here? That would mean that inactivity isn't a scum tell for them since they know that's how people here think. Thoughts from the crowd?
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The point wasn't about hawk, it was about you. Your actions don't tell me anything about hawk.
Why did you point me towards hawk?
What were you trying to say about hawk there?
It takes me a long time to come to decisions about alignments usally, if I had to choose two townies now though, I'd have to go with 7hawk77 and Rhand I think.
I don't think Bigtraine read as scum to begin with; Rhand definitely feels more town to me to though.
RE: Kosa / Condoms; they're both experienced players here? That would mean that inactivity isn't a scum tell for them since they know that's how people here think. Thoughts from the crowd?
Inactivity is considered a scum tell because they're not actively contributing to catching scum, which while not actually a scum tell itself, is not pro town behaviour.
Due to their inactivity, I don't have them any higher than null alignment, but I can't really say anything about that...
Condoms is actually leaning scum atm. His first post where he said he'd probably vote swishh with no reasoning leaves him an out to say he was on the wagon early if swishh flips scum.
Yes, non-committal suspicion is a scumtell. Saying that you are suspicious of several people without voting any of them is non-committal.
Whom do you think is scum?
I've got town reads on a few people;
AtheistGod
Fulcrum
Storyteller
Hawk (slightly)
Swishh (increasingly town, but not early)
The rest are mostly null, through not posting much. We're expecting more content from Condoms and Kosa soon; I also want to see how EF responds to our interaction and your vote on him.
I have an outstanding question for Rhand when he gets time.
When that info starts trickling in ill have more questions.
I don't think Bigtraine read as scum to begin with; Rhand definitely feels more town to me to though.
RE: Kosa / Condoms; they're both experienced players here? That would mean that inactivity isn't a scum tell for them since they know that's how people here think. Thoughts from the crowd?
Yes, non-committal suspicion is a scumtell. Saying that you are suspicious of several people without voting any of them is non-committal.
Whom do you think is scum?
I've got town reads on a few people;
AtheistGod
Fulcrum
Storyteller
Hawk (slightly)
Swishh (increasingly town, but not early)
The rest are mostly null, through not posting much. We're expecting more content from Condoms and Kosa soon; I also want to see how EF responds to our interaction and your vote on him.
I have an outstanding question for Rhand when he gets time.
When that info starts trickling in ill have more questions.
I don't think Bigtraine read as scum to begin with; Rhand definitely feels more town to me to though.
RE: Kosa / Condoms; they're both experienced players here? That would mean that inactivity isn't a scum tell for them since they know that's how people here think. Thoughts from the crowd?
How do those two posts add up?
What's the inconsistency? I'm happy to explain but I don't see it.
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The people on my list are who I consider likely town. My statement amount you/Bigtraine was comparative. That is, to say, you're acting more town than Bigtraine was.
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The people on my list are who I consider likely town. My statement amount you/Bigtraine was comparative. That is, to say, you're acting more town than Bigtraine was.
But you say you didn't read him as scum to begin with?
Another Random Announcement: AtheistGod and Storyteller have not responded to being prodded and are also needing to be replaced. Condoms and Kosakosa will be prodded if they do not post in the next 10 hours.
@Storyteller: I started looking for several replacements, but will gladly let you stay since replacements are scarce. Please catch up if you're not caught up in the game ASAP, so you can actively contribute to the game. Thank you.
Storyteller: I like his early play. The only thing that bothers me is that he says he can't chase Swishh anymore because what he does is often done by vets, yet still keeps his vote there.
I'm not in the habit of unvoting unless I'm voting someone else.
Fulcrum: I don't like how he votes Swishh after RVS to declare the vote as serious in a later post. The first vote should've been serious in the first place?
Most of my notes on him are covered in AG's case. I particularly dislike his use of percentages.
Him having to 'look back' to see that he doesn't like Bigtraine's reaction to his own question is very bad.
I don't see her vote on Swishh changing to a serious one as being suspicious.
Her first post was poking fun at Swishh, and she even begins her next post with "but seriously".
I also don't like you and whoever the other person was that went after the use of percentages.
Such nuances are irrelevant.
I've had people chase me on such nuances in the past, and they generally turned out to be scum.
Hm, if explosiveforce's replacement ever flips scum, this post is a goldmine.
I'm itching to analyse it, but there's nothing productive about making conclusions like that before someone flips.
Do make that analysis.
Knowing what you thought of the post before the flip will be much more significant than knowing what you think after the flip.
EtR has agreed to replace explosiveforce, but he is currently on a business trip and will have Limited Access for a week and a half or so. Please bear with this replacement transition and welcome him to the game.
I never said your defense was bad =P
I do think bigtraine wasn't playing as well as he could have been. His questions I feel have differed slightly from the ones he asked in WWII. The rest of his play however does resemble his play from WWII, such as his questioning of everyone.
Not going to comment on him replacing out, as I don't like to question oog stuff.
Rhand is looking much better than his predecessor though.
Counterwagon.
I have no problems with the attack itself, it's all mostly valid points and questions.
What caught my interest is that the attack came after fulcrum went after swishh and switched to bigtrainee.
I can see swishh and AG Scum team together.
I don't like how AG passed over swishh for fulcrum doing the same thing, and I don't like how swishh is blatantly barning everything that hawk is saying.
I would like storyteller and rancid raptor to also provide two people they think are town.
I will provide rationalizations for my choices after reciprocation and discussion.
Outdated Mafia Stats
I looked into Bigtraine's questions as directed by fulcrum and swishh, but nothing stuck out as inherently scummy. The post-RVS unvote might seem weird to some, or a new player I can appreciate the reasoning - infact for inexperienced town not wanting to cause a mislynch, I understand it.
I didn't like Swish's avoidance of questions early, or his flippant responses; however, I have never played with Swishh before so this might just be how he plays as town (is it just his demeanour?). I want to watch him more closely, as I could sense frustration with the questions directed towards him; which I think is something scum would exhibit; as town you would be more willing and helpful I would think.
Explosiveforce OMGUSing was a bit strange, but I won't make much of it.
Kind of null otherwise, need to read some more.
I look forward to seeing the interaction between 7hawk77 and others.
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Why are you looking for a scumteam instead of single scum?
It shows that Zemanjaski is interested in Deathjoey's mindset.
He's exploring, not accusing, which is good.
My post is based off my notes, and there's nothing worth mentioning in them after post #68.
I do have reasoning for thinking Kosa is town. A genuine Kosa is not a scum!Kosa.
Sorry about the gender. I'll try to remember :blush:
Your first vote on Swishh was cast after RVS. You gave no indication that it was not serious.
I highlighted what I find to be the most important tells. I don't interfere in other people's discussions unless needed, and it's not needed: AG is handling it well.
Using numbers shows a degree of disconnect with what you are saying: you avoid giving a real opinion and adding emotion.
It also gives you an easy way out when someone flips town: you leave an opening of X% that you are wrong.
Why weren't you paying attention to Bigtraine after asking him to ask questions?
Why are you looking for pairs of scum on Day 1?
non-committal suspicion strike 1
non-committal suspicion strike 2
non-committal suspicion strike 3
Unvote
Vote:explosiveforce
You never said it was good either. That's just hurtful.
Fair enough. What do you like about Rhand's play?
Because we're dealing with a scumteam. I find looking for connections between players and unaligned pairs to be fairly helpful.
Why not? It looks like the majority of his content is after post 68.
And you decided that he sounded genuine after four posts?
Really.
What part of that post looks serious to you?
Your vote is interference against me. If you're going to attack me, I'd like you to actually address my responses to AG's points instead of just barning his initial case.
Repeating that doesn't make it true. Did anyone who read the percentages not realize that I was calling Joey a slight scum read? Did they leave me any more of an out than "Joey is a slight scum read" would have? Why do my reads need to have "emotion"?
You're latching onto something that is representative of a playstyle rather than scumminess.
I think I was just distracted by Joey and swishh, along with some irl stuff.
Swishh: You dodged is posts 17, 19, 64, 72 and 77. 74 was the beginning of an explanation, but it wasn't detailed enough for me to understand what you were saying.
...
I'm in this weird position where I'm thinking of swishh as potential scum, but really liking the way he's pressuring people.
Zermanjaski: Ask someone a question.
Sorry zemanjaski. Not sure how that r got in there.
I really don't like this. Looks like you're trying to cover your tracks for doing the same thing to Bigtraine earlier.
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Because you typed it
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Obviously. Are you going to ask someone a question?
You did the same thing to Bigtraine (Rhand) earlier after he claimed inexperience. I acknowledge that I am also inexperienced and now you're doing it to me.
Why lean on new players that are actually involved? What is the town mindset of that? You've been asking Rhand about me as well.
Its a pretty horrible question to ask someone. If they do as you say and you flip scum, then they look bad. If they don't do as you say, then you can argue they have an anti-town mindset.
I'll go along, I am town afterall, and I do like that you're actively asking questions.
______________________________________________________________
Rhand, can you explain why you think Kosa is town? In my read through I have noted only a small number of posts, all of which are devoid of content. He (she?) is going to post more soon, so how can you be moving to clear him already??
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What retraction? I was apologizing for misspelling your username.
I asked you because it helps me read you. See post 147 for details. I asked Rhand about you to see if he's bull****ting his reads or if he actually believes them.
... Why would you asking someone a question at my request make us look like scummates?
You like that I'm asking questions, but don't like the questions themselves, correct? I don't like that you felt the need to state your towniness.
Look, I'm not trying to bully you here, and I apologize if you interpreted it that way. I honestly didn't know that you're new. I try to be very confrontational on day one because it provokes people and I asked you to ask someone a question because while you are posting in the thread, you aren't really interacting with other players, which makes it more difficult to read you. Just try to react in a pro-town way (Unless you happen to be scum. Then, feel free to be as scummy as you like.), and I'm sure we'll get on fine.
What mafia experience do you have?
It's Hip to be a Square
Uh...sorry. When I read the statement, I read it as an apology for asking me to ask a question, as if you were stating that you had accidentally asked me to do so - hence my flippant "because you typed it". My mistake.
Understood.
I've not played much (this is my second game and the first is as of yet incomplete), but I have tried to read a few games through to look at what more experienced players argue, for example, the two Cross-Town games. One theme that seems to keep coming up is "pairing", wherein a mafia buddies up to a town so that if the mafia is killed, it will be easier for the mafia to argue a kill on the buddy-town.
To me, I think it is more effective to ask questions yourself, rather than to get others to do it for you - especially as you're much more experienced than I am. With that in mind, if I didn't already feel that you were town, my concern would be that you were asking questions to fill space more than to get answers; but I don't think that is the case here.
Yeah pretty much. Again, my approach right now is very simplistic.
Fair enough. I've been really busy the last few days with my next CFB article so I haven't been as active as I should be. Don't worry, I don't feel bullied and it is a good thing that you're actively pushing around for answers.
re: experience, answered above in a little more detail; this is my second game and the first is still ongoing.
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Hola.
So I have gone back through your post #157 where you voted, then done a bit of extra reading of yours beyond that.
When I did my initial read through of the thread (prior to posting my reads list a few pages ago) I had you null; I liked that you were poking around, but I would agree with the others that it seemed that you were a bit dismissive / flippant in your responses that may have been avoiding giving answers (though you did clarify well eventually). Maybe that's how you play? Maybe you're trying to goad others into giving away more information via frustrating them? It seems like a good strategy to get town reads to help you narrow down on scum suspects I guess.
So that's my mindset going into your vote on explosiveforce in #157.
ps. feel free to point out faulty reasoning in the above.
_____________________________________________________
Quote #1.
Explosiveforce (EF) lists his scum suspects, gives a bit of reasoning, but doesn't vote for anyone.
Do you feel that having your vote on someone is important to pressuring them into giving information? I don't personally. Voting certainly helps if there is a bit of momentum on someone, but at this time it is really just you; so by that reasoning I don't see too much issue with EF not voting for any of this suspects yet. I do find it weird that he finds Kosa suspicious after only 4 posts, all of which are basically void.
______________________________________________________
Quote #2.
EF's second post is bad though. He goes on at length about your scumminess, but still doesn't want to vote for you? His suspicous / accusations are much stronger now, so i think he should be actively pressuring you, and at this point a vote is a good signal of intent (he is still RVS me FYI).
I think this passage validates your voting and suspicion of him.
_______________________________________________________
Quote #3.
This reads as null to me, if read independantly of the other passages. I don't think it is bad, if not for #2.
_______________________________________________________
So yeah, I like your vote, consider my read changed from null to suspect on EF.
I am also learning that I need to read the interactions between others a lot more closely I will try to get my head into the game more from now on, thanks.
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Whom do you think is scum?
Mind linking what post stuck out to you that showed you a town mentality from me and Rhand?
Thanks
Outdated Mafia Stats
I've got town reads on a few people;
AtheistGod
Fulcrum
Storyteller
Hawk (slightly)
Swishh (increasingly town, but not early)
The rest are mostly null, through not posting much. We're expecting more content from Condoms and Kosa soon; I also want to see how EF responds to our interaction and your vote on him.
I have an outstanding question for Rhand when he gets time.
When that info starts trickling in ill have more questions.
Thanks for the feedback.
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zemanjaski (1): explosiveforce
swishh (1): storyteller
Rhand(1): fulcrum
fulcrum(2): atheistgod, Rhand
explosiveforce (1): swishh
Not Voting (7): zemanjaski, Kosakosa, Deathjoey, 7hawk77, Condoms, Rancid Raptor
***explosiveforce, atheistgod and storyteller are being prodded***
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I like Rhand's catch up post, But I now have Zem higher then him. Like what hes done now.
And theres no one post from you I could point as a smoking gun and see "Look, town" I feel your actively looking for scum. Thats the feeling I'm getting.
Its still early however. and I'd like to hear from Ex-force and Kapaca. I'd like to have something from him other then a naked FOS
It's Hip to be a Square
I will attempt to send out some stuff before I go. First off, haven't voted because I just straight up forgot. I would vote now, but I feel like it wouldn't be fair for my replacement.
I don't know who to vote for, though. It's been, what, several extra pages and fulcrum has redeemed themselves fairly well, actively scum hunting with her "ask someone a question" which I think shows that fulcrum actively wants to get reads on people instead of being aggressively painting everyone scum. It's the phrasing, I guess, and even though the jump from Deathjoey to swishh back to no-one is still kind of suspect in my eyes, I really can't deny right now that fulcrum is showing her attempts to scum hunt. When you go "ask someone a question", that means that they're searching for reads and trying toget people more active - and it's something I can sympathize with. Scum just wouldn't do that, they don't actively search out reads.
Um, swishh's vote on me is a thing and not complete OMGUS, but I'm not sure what else has changed since my last vote on him. I see nothing that forgives his earlier behaviour in regards to making up reasoning for his vote on Deathjoey. I'm kind of biased but I don't see the exact reasoning of swishh's case, but that's irrelevant because I can't read, apparently. I'm non-committal because of the lack of vote that I forgot. Got it. Am I missing something here?
Also, troubled by the fact that a lot of what made swishh scum in my eyes was his interactions with fulcrum, who looks fairly town about now.
It's been enough time that I'm OK making a list of people in the game:
Rhand/Bigtraine: I still do not understand Bigtraine's case, but Rhand's reads are off to me. Whether that's because I disagree with them or because some of them are irrelevant - see my own, zeman, Azuriae - but that first post just reeked of off to me.
Also, all that text and Im not exactly sure what his second highest scum read is. I personally don't like that.
Condoms: has swag. I just like these people who come in, drop intent to vote and leave. It's just a thing. Yes, this is null.
Kosa: no content. Coupled with my early scum read, I don't like this. Would go for #1 scum.
storyteller: has he posted past Deathjoey saga? I do remember town posts from him, though. Would like a statement right about now.
7hawk77: Any other time, I would call scum on hawk because of his simple commentary but I'm getting town reads out of his fingers. Questions is important, etc etc. He's been consistently town so far because... as a feeling, I can't explain, but it might be due to the in-depth questions he asks. He questions people's tactics, I guess. Through a town perspective.
Zeman: posted more recently, I'm not sure if he's simply wordily barning swishh but I find it slightly suspect. He shows participation, so Null at best, though.
Raptor: Quiet, don't like it. I had Azuriae as town, but RR is running 7hawk's commentary but at a lower level that seems fairly scummy. Needs more post for a solid read, but leaning scum.
Deathjoey: ehhhhh. He seems like the type of guy that I can't read fairly well, but I haven't seen anything super scummy from him. Lean town.
AG: town, case on fulcrum is still a good thing. I said he was light and fluffy before, but ever since the case of fulcrum I like him a lot more.
Current scum era are:
Kosa
swishh
Rhand/RR, depending on further posts
Would vote Kosa for extra prod.
I'm itching to analyse it, but there's nothing productive about making conclusions like that before someone flips.
Swishh: how sure are you of your read? Being non-committed isn't always a tell for new players. Him looking for people bussing /distancing each other often is a tell tho. It's the same tell I saw Deathjoey and Fulcrum committing.
@Fulcrum: Others don't tend to really read quotewars when they're not part of it, so I'm gonna avoid that.
Answers:
* Looking for unaligned pairs is good. Looking for teams doesn't work before one of them flips.
* I didn't write anything worth mentioning on Explosiveforce in my notes after that post
Is there anything I should've noted? (apart from what Swishh pointed out)
* I've played quite a lot of games with Kosa. He feels genuine. Low postcount is not a scumtell for him. It is a tell of something, but I'm not going to explain what.
* The vote looked serious
* I did not interfere with AG's case. Voting is not interference. I won't leech on AG's case just because you want me to. It's bad manners and can undermine AG's questioning.
* I'll drop the percentages thing for now. If it is indicative of play style for you, then that's noted for future games. (I'll need to see you do it as town tho before I take your word for that)
* The distraction is a bad excuse. Why would you allow yourself to get distracted from analysing a prime suspect's posts?
I don't like how you just did the 'ask someone a question' thing again.
If he forgot to actively participate, why not say he forgot to put the time in this game. I feel like the wording implies scum mindset.
Outdated Mafia Stats
I got the same feeling from that post.
I didn't notice the vote thing. That's a good catch, especially considering he calls zem null in his reads.
If he was town, I think he would have just said he meant to spend more time analyzing and forgot about the game. Saying he forgot to vote is like saying he forgot how to pretend to be town as scum.
Outdated Mafia Stats
I would've liked to see him respond to that, and we can't ask that from whoever replaces in for him
It's Hip to be a Square
RE: Kosa / Condoms; they're both experienced players here? That would mean that inactivity isn't a scum tell for them since they know that's how people here think. Thoughts from the crowd?
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The point wasn't about hawk, it was about you. Your actions don't tell me anything about hawk.
Why did you point me towards hawk?
What were you trying to say about hawk there?
I'm not looking for pairs of scum, I'm looking for links between people who look scummy.
Also, why shouldn't I be looking for pairs of scum on d1?
Why hawk?
What are your opinions on Fulcrum vs Swishh?
Inactivity is considered a scum tell because they're not actively contributing to catching scum, which while not actually a scum tell itself, is not pro town behaviour.
Due to their inactivity, I don't have them any higher than null alignment, but I can't really say anything about that...
Condoms is actually leaning scum atm. His first post where he said he'd probably vote swishh with no reasoning leaves him an out to say he was on the wagon early if swishh flips scum.
How do those two posts add up?
I've explained that already. Looking for pairs doesn't work until one of them flips.
You're on my radar.
What's the inconsistency? I'm happy to explain but I don't see it.
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The people on my list are who I consider likely town. My statement amount you/Bigtraine was comparative. That is, to say, you're acting more town than Bigtraine was.
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But you say you didn't read him as scum to begin with?
AtheistGod and Storyteller have not responded to being prodded and are also needing to be replaced.Condoms and Kosakosa will be prodded if they do not post in the next 10 hours.Signature done by perv90210
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Basic 82: Hayate the Combat Butler Mafia
Town Doctor, NK N1
Mini: Drury Lane Mafia
Replaced out D1
Mafia "Stuffer"
Basic 80: Sesame Street Mafia
Town Mason, NK N1
Scum Victory
Basic 68: Mr. Potato Head Mafia
Replacing Marblez D2
Town Vanilla, Lynched Last Day (D6)
Scum Victory
Mini: Eeveelution Mafia
Town Umbreon, Modkilled D1
Scum Victory
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Town Necromancer, NK N1
Town Victory
So many replacements so fast only benefits scum
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I'm not in the habit of unvoting unless I'm voting someone else.
So you somehow found this:
worth noting, but none of his later three, despite the fact that swishh even managed to make an argument out of those three?
I don't see her vote on Swishh changing to a serious one as being suspicious.
Her first post was poking fun at Swishh, and she even begins her next post with "but seriously".
I also don't like you and whoever the other person was that went after the use of percentages.
Such nuances are irrelevant.
I've had people chase me on such nuances in the past, and they generally turned out to be scum.
Do make that analysis.
Knowing what you thought of the post before the flip will be much more significant than knowing what you think after the flip.
Basic 82: Hayate the Combat Butler Mafia
Town Doctor, NK N1
Mini: Drury Lane Mafia
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Town Mason, NK N1
Scum Victory
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Replacing Marblez D2
Town Vanilla, Lynched Last Day (D6)
Scum Victory
Mini: Eeveelution Mafia
Town Umbreon, Modkilled D1
Scum Victory
Mini: Deitriptychos Mafia
Town Necromancer, NK N1
Town Victory
That third quote is obviously Rhand's
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Town Doctor, NK N1
Mini: Drury Lane Mafia
Replaced out D1
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Basic 80: Sesame Street Mafia
Town Mason, NK N1
Scum Victory
Basic 68: Mr. Potato Head Mafia
Replacing Marblez D2
Town Vanilla, Lynched Last Day (D6)
Scum Victory
Mini: Eeveelution Mafia
Town Umbreon, Modkilled D1
Scum Victory
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Town Victory
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