And.. now seeing Shockwave's claim. Hm. Ehh, I'm wary of clearing him based on the town win condition thing because it's based on too many assumptions (see Iso's Battle Royale for how he got into trouble with that, when Void quoted his role PM IIRC) but I think the first ability (send messages) is pretty townie and provable.
You have been given plenty of time to catch up and I have no idea what your views are.
Please provide a full list of reads similar to why I did on your next post.
@Rhand: Yes, I ALWAYS read my role before commenting on claims. As you have pointed out, it is easy to get mislynched by failing to do so. I personally think it is a good habit to be reading your role PM at least every claim if not every week just to make sure things line up.
So you admit that not reading your role PM before commenting on a claim leads to mislynches, and yet you push this lynch on Rodemy, who clearly does not think before he posts, for not having compared his role PM to Shock's claim?
Why did you make no attempt to analyze your wagon, instead dismissing it with a "You're bad and you should feel bad"?
I wanted to defuse the situation first and see who would unvote and why (no one, apparently).
I'm at work; if there aren't any customers, I can do the analysis soon.
Rezombied, Kosa, Cantipmancer and Proph have all asked questions that I had noted down. This means they're looking at the game from the same mindset as I am.
While I'm flattered that you can call me town after ~7 posts (everytime someone townreads me I feel like it's a sign of me improving after sucking hard in early 2013 + 2012), what questions specifically did you note down that I asked?
I feel like I know the answer to this one and it's not going to get me anywhere, though.
It's your Gan_Dan read that swayed me. I had the exact same issue with him, and you pointing it out made me sure that you're in the same mindset as me.
Town
Prophylaxis (r. Cantripmancer)
Kosakosa
Rezombied
Tanarin
/snip
Rezombied, Kosa, Cantipmancer and Proph have all asked questions that I had noted down. This means they're looking at the game from the same mindset as I am.
Tanarin is clearly town with how he handled what happened with Shock's claim. Misguided, but town.
Rhand just names three obvtowns and the guy who primarily set up the trap his predecessor fell into, and /barns some uncited questions that he likes. I like that Tanarin is labeled as "misguided" here, since his handling of Shockwave's claim and the subsequent fallout is one of the two major factors pointing to the Rodemy/Rhand slot as scum.
You could ask me what questions it were that I like instead of just slinging mud at me?
Now he just throws suspicion at a couple players nobody is really talking about and conveniently zeroes in on me, who he knows has been an easy mislynch in a couple recent games because he has participated.
Right... you're pushing the easiest to mislynch guy on the MTGS mafia forum (Rodemy) and you accuse me of going for a mislynch target.
I don't "just" throw suspicion at players and you're not the only one I want to see swinging.
Dkings is apologetic in his first post, which is unnessesarily self-aware. His early wagon analysis is just silly and he holds on to that for far too long.
Now he's discrediting the early wagon anaylsis, something that several of his town reads (namely Tan and Proph) were in favor of. Why? Because it is the second major factor pointing to his slot as scum.
No, because it is silly. Overanalysing an RVS wagon leads to nothing.
@fulcrum: That is about as close to naked as a vote can get.
My reaction was bad why? Because I'm not writing off players as too scummy to be scum? As I mentioned in my last post: I've seen this kind of wagon crop up this early before, fairly recently, and it was pushed by scum. How likely do you think it is that there are 5 town votes on a wagon that went to L-2 within the first ~25 posts of the game? Can you show me an example of a game where that has happened?
Fulcrum does a near-naked vote, and instead of just pointing that out, Dkings gives reasoning himself for why Fulcrum voted. That's taking self-awareness to a whole new level.
This is a pretty big misrep. The post in which fulcrum voted me set the stage for that response, considering it also contained this quote:
I actually like Rodemy and Kosa for being on the end of the RVS wagon. The votes weere so blatantly anti-town that I actually think they're likely town for lacking any sense of self-awareness.
I was talking about "My reaction was bad why? Because I'm not writing off players as too scummy to be scum?". You ask her a question and answer it for her.
Quote from Dkings »
/barning Proph left and right, discrediting anything that made Rodemy look scummy, and giving default scum reads with no reasoning on players with low content levels. We've got a live one here. My vote isn't going anywhere.
I'm not in the habit of overexplaining my town reads on Day 1 unless they're in danger of getting lynched. That's handing out too much info to scum.
I did give reasoning on my scumreads.
Quote from Dkings »
Also, /barn Tanarin on reading Role PMs. That is a really poor defense of Rodemy.
Tanarin agreed with me that not reading role PM's leads to mislynches.
@Rhand: why do you say I've been fencesitty? I actually took a stance on something much quicker than I usually do in Day 1 scenarios, with the iRebel wagon. Your comment just feels like a cheap shot since I have a history of being more aloof on day 1.
Also, go more into your thoughts on the Shockwave/iRebel wagon, please.
I'm at work now and my notes are on my home pc. I'll copy-paste them when I'm home as to answer your first question.
I'm not sure enough of Shockwave's alignment to analyse that wagon. If scum indeed has falseclaims that include the wincon, then Shockwave jumps right up to a scumread.
I have no qualms in lynching Rhand, as something in the back of my head tells me Rodemy's outburst was a sham because reasons. But he's at L-2 and we ought to hear his claim. So Rhand, please claim.
I'm reluctant to claim. I will if no one unvotes, but I want to wait just a bit longer. As Rodemy said, I'm a strong PR.
This is the first vote on Rodemy when Rodemy voted Hans, realized he was at L-2 already and unvoted again.
This vote is ok, and Kosa does go after better targets later on.
I would find Hans's early barrage of posts more suspect if not for this wagon. There is scum in there somewhere.
Tan's vote is good. I don't know who fulcrum is so I don't know what "never again" refers to, but his vote also seems fine.
Cythare's vote is questionable... putting a third vote on a player typically signifies the end of RVS around here, and I don't know why she would be in a hurry to do so.
Kosa's stands out a bit because he immediately posted a realization that he put Hans at L-3 but didn't unvote at the time. He also may have been playing up the Apocalypse theme by quoting me.
But finally... ugh. Would Rodemy *really* be that careless after GIP and Apocalypse? I would think not, but then again he did a LOT of things in Apocalypse that didn't make sense. Derping votes is definitely in his scum repertoire, and "Figured that might happen" is really self-conscious.
Ugh.
Unvote Vote Rodemy
Dkings votes Rodemy but leaves his options open with the "but then again" statement. He meta's him with Apocalypse, but ignores the fact that Rodemy always plays like this, not only when he's scum.
I want a response from Rodemy about why he brought up Cythare's post toward me before I consider unvoting him.
Because cy posted my exact thoughts after i read that post. I don't see why that wasn't obvious.
It wasn't obvious because you waited two days and 30+ posts to point out that you "liked" it, when you had posted a number of times between when Cythare's post was made and when you pointed it out. You only indicated that you liked it after I explained why I thought your vote and subsequent unvote on Hans were scummy. And then you just /barn Kosa's #88 without adding anything to the discussion. This is effectively OMGUS.
Not to mention that you have been actively posting, but pretty much just floating along agreeing with opinions/liking posts that others state, and occasionally posting goofy things such as #53. This is not helping progress the game at all. It's the same pattern you exhibited on D1 in Apocalypse and is what TCM and Proph correctly pegged you as scum for coming out of RVS. If you're town, this is bad form, but I don't think you are.
... but this post clearly points to that being a lie: he never planned to unvote.
My opinion of Rodemy has been explained ad nauseum, and it isn't based on where he is on the wagon. His vote and immediate unvote reeked of self-consciousness. If his initial vote was "not RVS", as he stated when he posted it, he should not have been that concerned with how many votes there were on Hans. It reads very forced. Also, Rodemy has derped votes as scum in multiple games, and read the post I made yesterday. He is exhibiting a very similar behavioral pattern to scum!Rodemy in Apocalypse D1.
Again he only uses scum meta from Rodemy and ignores that he plays like that as town as well.
I believed that Tanarin really thinks he found scum, but if one of the people who knew what Tanarin was talking about (Shockwave, Fulcrum) ever flip scum, then this can be a trap for Rodemy.
After Rodemy comes back, I'd love for you to say what you think Tanarin is talking about before Tanarin explains.
This is directed at Fulcrum. Again null: this can come from both town mindset (scumhunting Fulcrum) and scum mindset (making sure someone else has to give the explanation, hence saving himself from getting caught)
Look at that Rodemy said, and WHEN he said it. Then look at the post you just quoted. There is no reason for Rodemy to have such indecision when you put the pieces together.
Vote Rodemy
I'd like to hear his reasoning. Because I can't think of any that are town-motivated.
This vote is ok. He wants pressure on Rodemy for a valid reason.
Like.. i tried to see it as a scumrole or a townrole... and it could go either way..
Like mine is pretty obvious it's a townrole...
His i cant tell.
i saw no abilities that screamed town or screamed scum...
Now get your votes off me... i am not going to claim this early.....
Wrong answer.
Vote Rodemy
She votes Rodemy because Rodemy didn't see what he did wrong.
Rodemy compared roles and didn't look at the wincon, which is quite obvious if you read his post.
I'm not fond of this vote, but it doesn't have to come from a scum mentality.
Look at that Rodemy said, and WHEN he said it. Then look at the post you just quoted. There is no reason for Rodemy to have such indecision when you put the pieces together.
Wait what?
Like.. i tried to see it as a scumrole or a townrole... and it could go either way..
Like mine is pretty obvious it's a townrole...
His i cant tell.
i saw no abilities that screamed town or screamed scum...
Now get your votes off me... i am not going to claim this early.....
I'm still not certain that I see the original tell that everyone's talking about, but this post screams scum -- especially the third line about his role "being obvtown." The pressure is sensed, the flail begins.
I'm willing to vote Rodemy for that post alone, but I'll refrain since there's been a lot of votes quickly.
@Mod: votecount, plox
Arian shows support for the lynch. He misinterprets what rodemy is trying to say here (that he's got a powerful role) as scum flailing.
I understand where Arian is coming from, nothing wrong with this semi-vote.
So analysing the current wagon, I think:
* dkings is scum;
* Tanarin is town depending on falseclaims being a thing;
* Cythare can go both ways;
* Rezombied is town;
* Fulcrum's vote is bad but can come from town
* Arian is town.
I don't really like how everyone jumped on Rodemy for the win condition thing (and by no means do I think that it confirms Shockwave).
I thought that the win condition for town is always the same across every game because the objective is always to kill all of the mafia, and I'm sure that Rodemy thought the very same thing.
However, I think that there is much better evidence against Rodemy in the form of his self vote. This was the exact same thing he did in Apocalypse mafia, and when he did it then, people began to retract their votes. Perhaps he thought that if he did it to remove suspicion one time, he could repeat it whenever he wanted for the same results.
Like I said at the beginning, I'm very stingy with my vote. If I become convinced that someone is scum, or if someone makes a convincing case, I'll vote.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I'm a compulsive liar no matter what team I play on, but I'm trying to get better about it."
Responding to prod, I've been working a ridiculous amount the past few days, and it'll be carrying through close to the end of the year.
I'll try to get a post of substance up sooner than later, but considering the pace of the game, I don't think it'll be too difficult if it waits towards the end of the year.
I thought that the win condition for town is always the same across every game because the objective is always to kill all of the mafia, and I'm sure that Rodemy thought the very same thing.
Yes, the objective is the same, but the wording of the wincon is completely different from game to game. Just take a look at pretty much any game thread that has completed to see just how varied the wincon can be. Also given again that we are allowed to quote the wincon word for word means that it can be used to at least clear one person.
Again, I concede that there is a slight possibility scum has a full fakeclaim including wincon, but given all the evidence in thread. I highly doubt it.
@Rhand: Yes, I am pushing this lynch. I don't think Rodemy was that dumb as to make such a mistake. Especially since rezombied was making it perfectly clear that is the info he was searching for. I also can't see Rodemy posting before reading the thread either as being a possible excuse.
So, as you switched people around you just left hans by the wayside?
Also you didn't answer the second part of the question.
Gut had a lot to do with it. Less 'wayside', more 'seems town'.
oh, ganderin_dan; again, gut, says scummy.
Again, can you quote the posts that provoke these gut reactions?
You'll notice I gave clear reasons for my gut reads on gan_dan and Tanarin and every time I talk to you I run into a brick wall of "gut".
Quote from Rhand »
It's your Gan_Dan read that swayed me. I had the exact same issue with him, and you pointing it out made me sure that you're in the same mindset as me.
Why would you townread me for this even I specifically said I had a gut gan_dan scum read before I replaced in?
Quote from Prophylaxis »
Now that's out of the way, I think I'm going to unvote - I was skimming this thread prior to replacing in and I didn't have great pre-replacement reads, so my first thought when I replaced in was "replace in, naked vote a gut-scum read, get immediate reactions and go to town" a la [REDACTED] (I replaced in without having read the thread and got good town reads based on doing this - fulcrum can attest).
Hm, but that "I don't want to claim because I have a strong town role" makes me get cold feet on this lynch.
@Rhand
If you have scumreads on both dkings and dan, how come you're splitting up the wagons rather than join me on the People's Glorious Wagon on Ganderin_Dan?
I'm not too fond of hans either; he's coasting like in Apocalypse and not making himself the center of attention like in WWII.
Thanks for taking the time to look through it, though I feel like your conclusion doesn't match your reasoning. As a summary:
1st post: ~weird -
2nd post: useless follow up -
3rd post: breaks garcia rule -
4th post: asks good question, brave +
5th post: Does Things =
6th post: "I don't like this" -
7th post: "I'm okay" =
8th post: "Null stuff" =
9th post: "Trying to figure me out" +
I see two +s, three =s, and thee -s. Yet you say you don't have any major problems with Tan, and you declare him as a slight town read. Can you explain this? I *might* be oversimplifying things with the use of equation signs but normally that should point to a ~nullish read.
Proph: The win con thing is makes him a slight town read instead of null. I doubt scum would have thought of that.
Arn is not a bad mod. He would never allow players to be confirmed town by quoting a part of their PM.
I went back to Arnmod's last game, Basic #73 (Disney Villains), and it had both town and scum wincon in the OP. Considering this game's important info in the OP such as rules and stuff is pretty much copypasted from Disney's, it's pretty safe to assume he left out of it on purpose. Therefore, it's also safe to assume scum are aware of town's wincon because they've probably received it directly from the mod. It makes much more sense than Arn screwing his game over a technicality.
That makes no sense. "Arn deliberately left out the win con in the opening post, so it must have been given directly to scum." What?
I don't like Tan much, but it's more of a gut feeling than anything else. There's also something very very wrong with fulcrum. Gotta get a reread.
This reminds me of something from the Behavioral Analysis Articles:
He's not thinking through his analysis the way he would in MoC, he's not probing and asking questions, he's going to "figure out" what his gut is tipping him off to. He's going to invent a rationale, figure out the reasons for his suspicions after the fact.
These are my notes. They should answer most outstanding questions to me.
RVS
---
hansanator: no vote in first post (don't like). jokes around a bit with semi-claim. Still no vote.
Tanarin: votes hansanator. Is this a joke? Seems not.
Fulcrum: hansanator vote for history reasons (ok)
Dkings: Kosa vote for history reasons (ok)
iRebel: Tanarin vote for history reasons (ok)
Gan_Dan: doesn't want to RVS (ok)
Arian: Cantrip vote for history reasons (ok)
Cythare: Hansanator vote with weird joke (don't like)
Kosa: Hansanator vote for history reasons (ok, but 4th vote in RVS?)
Rodemy breaks RVS with L-2 on Hans
----------------------------------
Kosa: votes Rodemy because he freaks out when he notices that it's the L-2 vote
Dkings: apologetic in first post (don't like). Reasoning on Hans is bad (note for if one of them flips scum) Rodemy vote is ok.
Cythare: votes Dkings for bad reason
Cantrip: weird first post. Doesn't want to acknowledge RVS is over (don't like)
Rezombied: exactly what I thought, good vote on Dkings (like)
Kosa: FOS's Dkings for good reasons
Arian: on Dkings (do not like)
Hans: Why not vote Rodemy if you like that vote least of all? (don't like)
Gan_Dan: I disagree with both the Dkings read and the Kosa read. Reasonings are ok though (ok)
Tanarin: votes Kosa for +- same reasoning as Gan_Dan did (ok) and barns Rezombied's question for Dkings (like)
Gan_dan: more agressive than what I'm used from him (don't like)
dkings: the wagon analysis is silly (ok)
Cythare: self-aware: only reacts to Dan's question, nothing else (don't like)
Fulcrum: good post with weakish but understandable Dkings vote (like)
Dkings: explains Fulcrum why he is voting Dkings because Fulcrum didn't do so (scum)
Arian: again a :fence:, this time on Kosa (don't like)
Tanarin: defends Dkings (note for if one of them flips scum) (ok)
Hans: Defense for his RVS not voting is ok (like)
Tanarin: Rodemy push is ok (like)
Dkings: complete misrep of what Fulcrum wanted to explain (don't like)
Hans: keeps defending but doesn't scumhunt (don't like)
Gan_dan: #64 is less agressive. Is he watching his tone? (ok) defense of both Hans and Dkings noted.
Tanarin: like his reasoning in #66 (like)
Dkings: total lack of scumhunting, fabricated on Rodemy
Cythare: still no content (don't like)
iRebel: dislikes the question form Rez that I do like. Calls out Kosa for barning it but not Tanarin. He even likes the post from Tanarin where he /barns that question! (scum and pointed to Hans as buddy)
Kosa: thinks iRebel is scum. Sees the same thing I saw. Like that whole post very much (town)
Arian: good iRebel vote (like)
iRebel: CFTWR
Arian: think he's town
Kosa: still like him
Gan_dan: aggressive again
Cantrip: good questions to the right people. Disagree with his Gandan read (like)
Cythare: again no content (don't like)
Tanarin: like his iRebel vote but not his Kosa reaction (ok)
Fulcrum: still like him
Dkings: why no vote on iRebel? (don't like)
Kosa: again points out what I want. Kosa is my alter-ego it seems
lots of ptaps
Dkings: keeps badly pushing Rodemy instead of moving to iRebel
iRebel replaces out --> Shockwave
-------------------
Gan_Dan: misreps Fulcrum and defends dkings. (don't like)
Hans: no content
Shock (iRebel): don't like the opening post. Self-aware ranting (don't like)
dkings: when will you start hunting scum? (don't like)
fulcrum: disagree with him on iRebel, but like his reasonings (like)
Shock: the more he posts, the scummier he seems (scum)
Proph: sees in Gan_Dan what I saw! (town)
I feel like I know the answer to this one and it's not going to get me anywhere, though.
I forgot what this was. Sorry Rhand.
@fulcrum
Okay, fine. Thanks for responding.
My gut is saying that Rhand and rezombied are slight town reads. I liked the way Rhand refused to claim and rezombied is stonewalling on his responses towards me, kind of like Ghosting in Katawa Shoujo.
Again, I dislike this vote. Even though it's a play on words, it's fairly succinct for an RVS vote, and I think it was the third vote on hans. I'm sure Rhand remembers the RVS-breaking third vote on him on MTG Salvation Mafia.
This is something that's already been pointed out, but iRebel's #69 reads scummily to me.
I'm curious as to why fulcrum felt the *need* to defend him. The pressure applied wasn't something that was unreasonable for a replacement to deal with, and white-knighting this early on reads like scum trying to defuse a potential issue for a scumbuddy.
@fulcrum - What do you mean by "I agree with both the out of game and in game notes"? You agree with him posting them or you agree with his stance? Do you disagree that the post was formulaic or do you just not see the scum motivation behind it?
After you white-knight him, you immediately double back and call Shockwave07 scummy, and even include it in the same post.
Relatedly, #110 also reads self-conscious to me. Leading with "You think you would actually see if the person who replaces in for a person who didn't put up much of a fight would defend themselves before posting this" seems unnecessary. While I agree that fulcrum should have waited, I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish (if anything) by stating it outright.
I'd vote for Shockwave, but if the votes on iRebel didn't reset, I think he's already at L-2.
----------
Right now I'm feeling a scum team of: Shockwave07, dkingsland, fulcrum
Not sure about the "yesterday got away from me" - reads a bit self-conscious, like Arian in WWE.
Hmm. This post is pretty weird because he rags on fulcrum yet never shifts his vote to her. He keeps his vote firmly planted on dkings yet never mentions him in that post. Why, Cythare?
Did Cythare seriously random into scum for like the fifth time? (Futurama, Seppel's basic, Smalltown Swap, Empire of Astarte)
More posts about the "need" to white-knight iRebel, from Cythare. Does he follow up on his questions?
@fulcrum - What do you mean by "I agree with both the out of game and in game notes"? You agree with him posting them or you agree with his stance? Do you disagree that the post was formulaic or do you just not see the scum motivation behind it?
I agree with his stance for the out of game and in game statements, and have no problem with him posting them. I also agree that the post was formulaic, and that that's scummy.
But why? It seems weird to me that you feel the need to /barn an OOG opinion.
After you white-knight him, you immediately double back and call Shockwave07 scummy, and even include it in the same post.
Yep. Problem?
Was that not clear? Why did you feel the need to white-knight him if you come out of it disliking his replacement (whose posts you "dislike" came well before your white-knight post)? Why did you feel the need to white-knight him if you would have no more knowledge of iRebel's thought process than others? Do you not think that should be Shockwave's responsibility?
Also, how do you feel about dkingsland based on your current read of Shockwave07?
Relatedly, #110 also reads self-conscious to me. Leading with "You think you would actually see if the person who replaces in for a person who didn't put up much of a fight would defend themselves before posting this" seems unnecessary. While I agree that fulcrum should have waited, I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish (if anything) by stating it outright.
I'd vote for Shockwave, but if the votes on iRebel didn't reset, I think he's already at L-2.
----------
Right now I'm feeling a scum team of: Shockwave07, dkingsland, fulcrum
Every time I look at this I think: Said every scum with a scummate going down ever. If Shockwave is scum, I'm looking at Cythare next.
Please expand on this. What did every scumbuddy ever say? This just looks like a generalized comment and I'd love to hear specifics.
-------------
After Rodemy comes back, I'd love for you to say what you think Tanarin is talking about before Tanarin explains.
Yep, he does! He asks some pretty fine questions this time around.
And I think Cythare votes for Rodemy some where too, but it reads as a pretty barny vote. I wonder why Cythare doesn't have the spine to vote fulcrum after spending time interrogating her.
He spends a post ragging on Rodemy.
And he follows on his question-chain.
I declare this analysis inconclusive and he's still wonderfully null, as always. He has some strangeness coming out of him and I didn't like his RVS vote but he followed up on his questions and his questions are pretty good. I'll need to see more from Cythare but now I'll fencesit.
I'll do fulcrum soonish, but fulcrum has really large posts.
Due to the holidays and the plethora of "V/LA" notices I foresee coming in, the game has gone into "no prod" mode for the next 72 hours. You are still free to post and vote and play the game, but no prods will be delivered in the next 72 hours and the "timer" will reset itself as normal when the 72 hours are up.
In fairness, Cythare's prod is rescinded. Happy Holidays to you and yours and let us come back swinging after this grace period is over.
Sorry for the lack of posting. Holidays have been (and continue to be) quite hectic. I'll be busy for the next couple days, but will be able to provide content after that.
Again, I dislike this vote. Even though it's a play on words, it's fairly succinct for an RVS vote, and I think it was the third vote on hans. I'm sure Rhand remembers the RVS-breaking third vote on him on MTG Salvation Mafia.
Meh... dunno what exactly you are trying to get at here. Obviously, it was a joke that got away from her (Though I did get it when it was posted.)
I've never seen "X votes == end of RVS" before, so color me suspicious of your smearing me based on my vote timing in RVS. It was clearly an RVS vote.
Unvote Vote dkingsland
Ehh, I guess Cythare can interpret it as smearing? I don't know. Need input on this one.
I think she was trying to imply that dkings was painting her as scum for being third vote on the wagon. If you take a look at dkings' post, you can read the implication.
This is something that's already been pointed out, but iRebel's #69 reads scummily to me.
I'm curious as to why fulcrum felt the *need* to defend him. The pressure applied wasn't something that was unreasonable for a replacement to deal with, and white-knighting this early on reads like scum trying to defuse a potential issue for a scumbuddy.
@fulcrum - What do you mean by "I agree with both the out of game and in game notes"? You agree with him posting them or you agree with his stance? Do you disagree that the post was formulaic or do you just not see the scum motivation behind it?
After you white-knight him, you immediately double back and call Shockwave07 scummy, and even include it in the same post.
Relatedly, #110 also reads self-conscious to me. Leading with "You think you would actually see if the person who replaces in for a person who didn't put up much of a fight would defend themselves before posting this" seems unnecessary. While I agree that fulcrum should have waited, I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish (if anything) by stating it outright.
I'd vote for Shockwave, but if the votes on iRebel didn't reset, I think he's already at L-2.
----------
Right now I'm feeling a scum team of: Shockwave07, dkingsland, fulcrum
Not sure about the "yesterday got away from me" - reads a bit self-conscious, like Arian in WWE.
Hmm. This post is pretty weird because he rags on fulcrum yet never shifts his vote to her. He keeps his vote firmly planted on dkings yet never mentions him in that post. Why, Cythare?
Did Cythare seriously random into scum for like the fifth time? (Futurama, Seppel's basic, Smalltown Swap, Empire of Astarte)
Now THIS part of the analysis I don't like at all. First off, while I do agree that Cythare's first sentence is a bit on the self conscious side, I do not like the fact that you imply that the post required a vote when her vote was still on one of her scumspects (Dking). Why would she need to change her vote right there when she is obviously trying to feel out just why Fulcrum did what he did. She also clarifies that she would rather vote shockwave/irebel, which is her third scumspect.
@fulcrum - What do you mean by "I agree with both the out of game and in game notes"? You agree with him posting them or you agree with his stance? Do you disagree that the post was formulaic or do you just not see the scum motivation behind it?
I agree with his stance for the out of game and in game statements, and have no problem with him posting them. I also agree that the post was formulaic, and that that's scummy.
But why? It seems weird to me that you feel the need to /barn an OOG opinion.
After you white-knight him, you immediately double back and call Shockwave07 scummy, and even include it in the same post.
Yep. Problem?
Was that not clear? Why did you feel the need to white-knight him if you come out of it disliking his replacement (whose posts you "dislike" came well before your white-knight post)? Why did you feel the need to white-knight him if you would have no more knowledge of iRebel's thought process than others? Do you not think that should be Shockwave's responsibility?
Also, how do you feel about dkingsland based on your current read of Shockwave07?
Relatedly, #110 also reads self-conscious to me. Leading with "You think you would actually see if the person who replaces in for a person who didn't put up much of a fight would defend themselves before posting this" seems unnecessary. While I agree that fulcrum should have waited, I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish (if anything) by stating it outright.
I'd vote for Shockwave, but if the votes on iRebel didn't reset, I think he's already at L-2.
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Right now I'm feeling a scum team of: Shockwave07, dkingsland, fulcrum
Every time I look at this I think: Said every scum with a scummate going down ever. If Shockwave is scum, I'm looking at Cythare next.
Please expand on this. What did every scumbuddy ever say? This just looks like a generalized comment and I'd love to hear specifics.
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After Rodemy comes back, I'd love for you to say what you think Tanarin is talking about before Tanarin explains.
Yep, he does! He asks some pretty fine questions this time around.
And I think Cythare votes for Rodemy some where too, but it reads as a pretty barny vote. I wonder why Cythare doesn't have the spine to vote fulcrum after spending time interrogating her.
He spends a post ragging on Rodemy.
And he follows on his question-chain.
I declare this analysis inconclusive and he's still wonderfully null, as always. He has some strangeness coming out of him and I didn't like his RVS vote but he followed up on his questions and his questions are pretty good. I'll need to see more from Cythare but now I'll fencesit.
I'll do fulcrum soonish, but fulcrum has really large posts.
OK, so you say all this, ripping apart Cythare about as much as Cythare did to fulcrum and you STILL have a null read? After reading this, I was totally expecting you to say leaning scum.
I want to vote you right now, but I think you can wait until tomorrow. Rhand in my mind is still the lynch for today.
Prod vacation has expired. Please resume the normal activity level necessary as stated in the rules of the thread. Prods will be heading out tomorrow morning for anyone in range. (Meaning, it's been 72 hours since they've posted since before the "prod vacation" started.)
My gut is saying that Rhand and rezombied are slight town reads. I liked the way Rhand refused to claim and rezombied is stonewalling on his responses towards me, kind of like Ghosting in Katawa Shoujo.
Really? Rezombied's attitude actually reminds me of you the last game we've played together (where you were scum).
Again, I dislike this vote. Even though it's a play on words, it's fairly succinct for an RVS vote, and I think it was the third vote on hans. I'm sure Rhand remembers the RVS-breaking third vote on him on MTG Salvation Mafia.
Why do you feel that Rhand should still be the lynch toDay if you're that sure about Cythare?
Because he is caught scum. I don't believe Rodemy is as dumb/stupid as Rhand is trying to make him out to be. Especially since Rodemy was scum in his most recently completed game (Drury Lane) and for a little while he was acting the same as he was there (Until his blow up that is.) I also feel his blow up was because he was scum again and busted first again.
You don't have any evidence apart from Rodemy not reading his role PM Tanarin, and you already admitted that people get mislynched because of that.
I am starting to doubt your intentions.
I already said that I am a strong PR. Do I really have to claim what that is before you abandon this silly wagon?
My gut is saying that Rhand and rezombied are slight town reads. I liked the way Rhand refused to claim and rezombied is stonewalling on his responses towards me, kind of like Ghosting in Katawa Shoujo.
Really? Rezombied's attitude actually reminds me of you the last game we've played together (where you were scum).
I'd expect scum to do a poor explanation of their reads, not just refuse to do it altogether.
I think I was overplaying my obstinateness/trying to imitate a townie action in that last game, and since we're on MTGS I can show you it.
It's minimalistic. It's lacking the tinge of RVS humor that you would expect a post of that sort to have. It's slightly obfuscating in its phrasing - "never not correct". These things made me scrutinize RobRoy's post, but I didn't mention my suspicions until after RVS was over, because of my experience with scumVoid in Deitrip not getting immediately lynched after I caught him so early in the game. Let's take a look at RobRoy's next RVS post:
Why do you feel that Rhand should still be the lynch toDay if you're that sure about Cythare?
Because he is caught scum. I don't believe Rodemy is as dumb/stupid as Rhand is trying to make him out to be. Especially since Rodemy was scum in his most recently completed game (Drury Lane) and for a little while he was acting the same as he was there (Until his blow up that is.) I also feel his blow up was because he was scum again and busted first again.
OK replying to this first as I realized after I posted you were asking about Cythare. I am not sure on Cythare, the whole post I was responding to was from Proph, not Cythare.
@Rhand: I see you are belittling my case. I am not so much wanting to lynch you for your predecessor not reading his role PM as much as his reaction to the sudden wagon on him. If he was really town, he would have gotten the hint to read his role PM and see why people are voting. Instead he goes off and adhoms the wagon. He then proceeds to vote himself for no reason after he is given the reason why the wagon was formed.
Going and looking back on his previous behavior (Pre-breakdown), you can find he was just kinda floating. He never really tried to take a stand on anything, and just answered anything directed at him as opposed to really scumhunt anyone. His only real stand he took was on hans for not saying anything funny about the game he was just in with some other players. After that, he just kinda did not pursue the vote any longer. This is after the fact he was sick and V/LAed until that Monday, where he posted all of a one liner post.
PTAP, feel like I've been hit like a truck, sorry for the lack of activity, hope everyone's holidays are going well.
I feel slightly horrible about calling you out for this, but you're seriously reminding me too much of Survival Horror to be kosher here. The only scum meta I know of you is from there, and you did the exact same thing -- you called v/la a few times, made a bunch of PTAPs, and lurked the rest of the time.
I do believe that my break is over. I have a little stuff to do tomorrow, but that shouldn't be anything to be worried about.
I dislike how Rhand was like "Well, I suppose I'll claim if you guys want" to "Well, nobody objected to me claiming but they should because I'm a reallly strong power role." I've seen both town and scum stall their claim, so I'm not really sure what to make of it.
I like Proph. I think that he seems pretty town.
And that's all I got for now.
@Everyone
/Request - Please ask me questions or something* from time to time to get me involved, otherwise I'll have to do something crazy/stupid to stay involved. Further analysis tells me that everyone hates it when I try to create ways to benefit the town, but since I don't really delve too far into other people's affairs I will quickly fade into oblivion if matters don't include me.
*Note: I reserve the right to deny any request if it seems to difficult to answer.
Alternatively, I could always set the brilliant plan that I currently have into motion if people are ok with it.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I'm a compulsive liar no matter what team I play on, but I'm trying to get better about it."
Things have been a bit busier here and still coming off of the holidays. Family visits, Christmas, and a first trip to a casino not even an hours drive from my house to go gambling with family... Learned how to lose.
Which I admit adds nothing to this game. In the morning (as it is 12:34 AM here) I'll see what I can get going.
I dislike how Rhand was like "Well, I suppose I'll claim if you guys want" to "Well, nobody objected to me claiming but they should because I'm a reallly strong power role." I've seen both town and scum stall their claim, so I'm not really sure what to make of it.
Agree... plus, Rodemy/Rhand clinging to having a powerful claim really doesn't resonate much with me considering we're in a game with a bunch of JoaTs running around.
Please ask me questions or something* from time to time to get me involved, otherwise I'll have to do something crazy/stupid to stay involved. Further analysis tells me that everyone hates it when I try to create ways to benefit the town, but since I don't really delve too far into other people's affairs I will quickly fade into oblivion if matters don't include me.
Hans, you're very familiar with Rodemy's play in Apocalypse since you guys were on the scum team together. Give his D1 play in TMNT Mafia a quick look-over and tell me which game you feel is more similar to his behavior here.
It's minimalistic. It's lacking the tinge of RVS humor that you would expect a post of that sort to have. It's slightly obfuscating in its phrasing - "never not correct". These things made me scrutinize RobRoy's post, but I didn't mention my suspicions until after RVS was over, because of my experience with scumVoid in Deitrip not getting immediately lynched after I caught him so early in the game. Let's take a look at RobRoy's next RVS post:
From reading through Iso's logic there, it looks like you're cherry picking out a piece of his logic that suits your needs. That one piece is supplemented by additional thoughts both on the same post and subsequent posts. It looks like you're trying to find a fence to sit on.
I don't really like how everyone jumped on Rodemy for the win condition thing (and by no means do I think that it confirms Shockwave).
I thought that the win condition for town is always the same across every game because the objective is always to kill all of the mafia, and I'm sure that Rodemy thought the very same thing.
However, I think that there is much better evidence against Rodemy in the form of his self vote. This was the exact same thing he did in Apocalypse mafia, and when he did it then, people began to retract their votes. Perhaps he thought that if he did it to remove suspicion one time, he could repeat it whenever he wanted for the same results.
The win condition is the same from game to game, but the wording of the win condition is not. It was not provided in the opening post, and he wrote it verbatim. To echo others, I always read my role PM, including win condition. I think it's more likely that Rodemy wouldn't catch this if he was scum because he would be operating under the assumption that the wording was irrelevant (or at least wasn't the crux of it). If I don't understand something, I do two things:
a) reread parts or all of the thread
b) recheck my role PM
The fact that Rodemy wasn't able to figure it out means to me that he wasn't able to go back, read his PM and realize what was going on, because that information wasn't in his role PM.
Why are you trying to both explain away that piece of info while also providing your own reason that he's scum? Do you feel Rodemy/Rhand is scum? This looks to me like you're trying to grant yourself a potential out either way. EWP: You've stated that you don't like his refusal to claim, but still don't have a strong enough feeling to state your read on him explicitly? I've seen town refuse, but not nearly as frequently.
Hans, you're very familiar with Rodemy's play in Apocalypse since you guys were on the scum team together. Give his D1 play in TMNT Mafia a quick look-over and tell me which game you feel is more similar to his behavior here.
Why are you trying to both explain away that piece of info while also providing your own reason that he's scum?
Because I think it's a pretty shoddy reason to have jumped on Rodemy, but I think his self-vote is actually a legitimate indication that this might be his scum game.
I understand what you are saying about the condition being verbatim, but I wouldn't expect an ill-experienced person to pick up on that. My thoughts are that Rodemy was strictly considering the role itself, and completely dismissed the wincon, hence he only quoted the role aspect of the claim (it was split into 2 separate posts, iirc, so I believe that Rodemy didn't even read the second one, or he didn't see any sort of significance).
Do you feel Rodemy/Rhand is scum? This looks to me like you're trying to grant yourself a potential out either way. EWP: You've stated that you don't like his refusal to claim, but still don't have a strong enough feeling to state your read on him explicitly? I've seen town refuse, but not nearly as frequently.
He is currently the person that I believe most likely to be scum, but I still don't feel comfortable voting him yet, especially without a claim.
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But it *isn't* an indication of scum by itself. It could also be an indication that he is improving as a player, and the way you nonchalantly agreed with it looked (and still looks) bad.
That would be why I said it may be indicative of scum.
Ugh, this is like the fencesittiest thing I've read in a long time.
Because it's no one else's job. Also, I don't get why you need to separate them. Shockwave replaced iRebel. They are the same role.
But they're different people, with different reactions to pressure. It's not like I can say "Oh yeah, I didn't like the way iRebel came in and attacked his predeccesor." That would be ridiculous.
I recognize this. I really can't explain how much I disliked it anyways. It felt out of the blue and contrived.
Also, how do you feel about dkingsland based on your current read of Shockwave07?
I actually feel pretty good about dkings on a gut level. Why would my read of Shockwave change that?
No, not that your read of Shockwave should change. I was curious to see if you'd remembered your previous linking of them here where you stated that Shockwave being scum would indicate dkingsland is scum too:
Second I actually agree with the votes against my slot. iRebel has earned a guarenteed RVS vote over this --------. Hell, I might through in a free 1-shot policy lynch over this. But I wonder how much he didn't read.
Did he seriously defend dKings as town after his wagon analysis and calling Hansanator likely town after the RVS quick wagon?! Especially after Fulcrum provided a counter-example to dKings quick wagon example talking about a scum started quick wagon on scum?!
That defense was dumb.
Plus that Rez-Tan dichotomy he thought he saw, this early in the game! The points that followed showed a clear progression of thoughts between Rez's and Tan's points of view.
(Placing this here in place of a long rant that can go on for pages and pages...)
I can't ask how much his reads were due to lack of reading, as he didn't give any in game indication before replacing out, but lucifer put me on a spit if I don't try to fight back into this!
Reads forthcoming, but will put this one here, Rodemy is unlikely scum in my mind despite his derpy L-2 vote. I've seen his nature. Post #60 comes across to me as a town mindset post.
Oh man, I just wrote that whole thing defending iRebel and now you’re making me want to lynch you for being overly critical of your predecessor. But hey, good news is if Shockwave is scum, that third paragraph says dkings is his scummate.
What has changed for you since then?
Nothing. If Shockwave flips scum, I'd look closely at you and dkings. I'm not going to act on any connections before a flip.
I'm not asking you to. It just looks like you were trying to plant something for later and then promptly forgot about it. I would be voting you for it, but I still dislike Rhand.
You don't have any evidence apart from Rodemy not reading his role PM Tanarin, and you already admitted that people get mislynched because of that.
I am starting to doubt your intentions.
I already said that I am a strong PR. Do I really have to claim what that is before you abandon this silly wagon?
Every time you delay roleclaiming, I wish I had another vote to put on you.
My gut is saying that Rhand and rezombied are slight town reads. I liked the way Rhand refused to claim and rezombied is stonewalling on his responses towards me, kind of like Ghosting in Katawa Shoujo.
Really? Rezombied's attitude actually reminds me of you the last game we've played together (where you were scum).
I'd expect scum to do a poor explanation of their reads, not just refuse to do it altogether.
I think I was overplaying my obstinateness/trying to imitate a townie action in that last game, and since we're on MTGS I can show you it.
I'm aware. Why haven't you considered that Rezombied is doing the same thing?
It's minimalistic. It's lacking the tinge of RVS humor that you would expect a post of that sort to have. It's slightly obfuscating in its phrasing - "never not correct". These things made me scrutinize RobRoy's post, but I didn't mention my suspicions until after RVS was over, because of my experience with scumVoid in Deitrip not getting immediately lynched after I caught him so early in the game. Let's take a look at RobRoy's next RVS post:
From reading through Iso's logic there, it looks like you're cherry picking out a piece of his logic that suits your needs. That one piece is supplemented by additional thoughts both on the same post and subsequent posts. It looks like you're trying to find a fence to sit on.
/Barn the first couple sentences. Not sure what Cythare means by the last sentence.
[
But it *isn't* an indication of scum by itself. It could also be an indication that he is improving as a player, and the way you nonchalantly agreed with it looked (and still looks) bad.
That would be why I said it may be indicative of scum.
Ugh, this is like the fencesittiest thing I've read in a long time.
Now, you're just bull****ting me. Really, I'm fencesitting because I agreed with iRebel's assessment of hans playstyle change?
Because it's no one else's job. Also, I don't get why you need to separate them. Shockwave replaced iRebel. They are the same role.
But they're different people, with different reactions to pressure. It's not like I can say "Oh yeah, I didn't like the way iRebel came in and attacked his predeccesor." That would be ridiculous.
I recognize this. I really can't explain how much I disliked it anyways. It felt out of the blue and contrived.
I don't know if there's a good way to explain this. I thought the case against iRebel was bad, which meant that it may have been scum driven. In order to determine that, I attacked the posts against iRebel to see how Kosa and Arianrhod would respond. At the same time, Shockwave had some very susicious behavior that was worthy of scrutiny.
I'm not asking you to. It just looks like you were trying to plant something for later and then promptly forgot about it. I would be voting you for it, but I still dislike Rhand.
It's a playstyle choice, really, but I can understand how you would get that impression.
Please ask me questions or something* from time to time to get me involved, otherwise I'll have to do something crazy/stupid to stay involved. Further analysis tells me that everyone hates it when I try to create ways to benefit the town, but since I don't really delve too far into other people's affairs I will quickly fade into oblivion if matters don't include me.
Hans, you're very familiar with Rodemy's play in Apocalypse since you guys were on the scum team together. Give his D1 play in TMNT Mafia a quick look-over and tell me which game you feel is more similar to his behavior here.
The major thing that stuck out at me this game as being really similar to apocalypse mafia was his self vote.
From reading D1 of that TMNT game, there were some noticeable things that I found very different about his play:
He was brought to 4 votes pretty early in the game, but he remained pretty calm during that, and then people saw that he was genuinely trying to scumhunt. What I find odd is that he claims to have "learned from his mistakes" which is why he doesn't "lash out" because doing so makes him appear scummy, according to him. However, I sensed frustration in this game when people started voting for him, and he self-voted, which really doesn't accomplish anything beneficial. So why wouldn't he have remained calm in this game if he did "learn from his mistakes" like he said he did?
Another thing that I found interesting was that in TMNT, he immediately pointed out that "it was odd" that a player (flubbucket) didn't vote in his first post, but he never put down a vote. At the end of the game, that player (flubbucket) flipped town. In this game, he also said that my lack of an RVS vote "was odd" but what's different is that he accompanied it with a vote. So I'm wondering how he came to believe that not voting in RVS was a scumtell?
@fulcrum - Besides the apparent cheap shot on Dan, I like Arian in this game.
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Because I think it's a pretty shoddy reason to have jumped on Rodemy, but I think his self-vote is actually a legitimate indication that this might be his scum game.
I understand what you are saying about the condition being verbatim, but I wouldn't expect an ill-experienced person to pick up on that. My thoughts are that Rodemy was strictly considering the role itself, and completely dismissed the wincon, hence he only quoted the role aspect of the claim (it was split into 2 separate posts, iirc, so I believe that Rodemy didn't even read the second one, or he didn't see any sort of significance).
OK, how does that make sense though when he was actually given a pretty big hint in thread about the reason for the votes? How does this also make sense when he would have clearly of seen the wincon question asked in thread that something was up involving the wincon? Your logic on this part has a bunch of holes in it considering there were the mental prods BEFORE the onslaught of votes that he should have checked his role PM.
It's minimalistic. It's lacking the tinge of RVS humor that you would expect a post of that sort to have. It's slightly obfuscating in its phrasing - "never not correct". These things made me scrutinize RobRoy's post, but I didn't mention my suspicions until after RVS was over, because of my experience with scumVoid in Deitrip not getting immediately lynched after I caught him so early in the game. Let's take a look at RobRoy's next RVS post:
From reading through Iso's logic there, it looks like you're cherry picking out a piece of his logic that suits your needs. That one piece is supplemented by additional thoughts both on the same post and subsequent posts. It looks like you're trying to find a fence to sit on.
/Barn the first couple sentences. Not sure what Cythare means by the last sentence.
Yeah, to be honest, it doesn't read like it sounded in my head. Basically, it looks like he's finding potential scumtells to suit his needs, but the result of his post is that he has a neutral read on me (he actually says "but now I'll fencesit"). I don't really know what to make of it.
[
But it *isn't* an indication of scum by itself. It could also be an indication that he is improving as a player, and the way you nonchalantly agreed with it looked (and still looks) bad.
That would be why I said it may be indicative of scum.
Ugh, this is like the fencesittiest thing I've read in a long time.
Now, you're just bull****ting me. Really, I'm fencesitting because I agreed with iRebel's assessment of hans playstyle change?
I'll admit that was a hyperbole, but saying something akin to "this could be indicative of scum (but it also could not be!)" is about as useful as saying "this is a null tell" while also being more frustrating because it could be misconstrued or referred to differently later. Statements like that are a peeve of mine because when confronted about it or the player flips town, one can say "I only said it may be a scumtell" so it provides an easy out, but also allows a player to go back in the event that player does flip scum and say "see I called it back then".
Because it's no one else's job. Also, I don't get why you need to separate them. Shockwave replaced iRebel. They are the same role.
But they're different people, with different reactions to pressure. It's not like I can say "Oh yeah, I didn't like the way iRebel came in and attacked his predeccesor." That would be ridiculous.
I recognize this. I really can't explain how much I disliked it anyways. It felt out of the blue and contrived.
I don't know if there's a good way to explain this. I thought the case against iRebel was bad, which meant that it may have been scum driven. In order to determine that, I attacked the posts against iRebel to see how Kosa and Arianrhod would respond. At the same time, Shockwave had some very susicious behavior that was worthy of scrutiny.
I'll drop this. I still don't agree with doing it, but I don't think we're ever going to see eye-to-eye on it, and at least now I better understand your reasoning behind why you did so.
I'm not asking you to. It just looks like you were trying to plant something for later and then promptly forgot about it. I would be voting you for it, but I still dislike Rhand.
It's a playstyle choice, really, but I can understand how you would get that impression.
It's a playstyle choice to forget about your previous statements or to plant things for later? Can you clarify what you mean here?
Please ask me questions or something* from time to time to get me involved, otherwise I'll have to do something crazy/stupid to stay involved. Further analysis tells me that everyone hates it when I try to create ways to benefit the town, but since I don't really delve too far into other people's affairs I will quickly fade into oblivion if matters don't include me.
Hans, you're very familiar with Rodemy's play in Apocalypse since you guys were on the scum team together. Give his D1 play in TMNT Mafia a quick look-over and tell me which game you feel is more similar to his behavior here.
The major thing that stuck out at me this game as being really similar to apocalypse mafia was his self vote.
From reading D1 of that TMNT game, there were some noticeable things that I found very different about his play:
He was brought to 4 votes pretty early in the game, but he remained pretty calm during that, and then people saw that he was genuinely trying to scumhunt. What I find odd is that he claims to have "learned from his mistakes" which is why he doesn't "lash out" because doing so makes him appear scummy, according to him. However, I sensed frustration in this game when people started voting for him, and he self-voted, which really doesn't accomplish anything beneficial. So why wouldn't he have remained calm in this game if he did "learn from his mistakes" like he said he did?
Another thing that I found interesting was that in TMNT, he immediately pointed out that "it was odd" that a player (flubbucket) didn't vote in his first post, but he never put down a vote. At the end of the game, that player (flubbucket) flipped town. In this game, he also said that my lack of an RVS vote "was odd" but what's different is that he accompanied it with a vote. So I'm wondering how he came to believe that not voting in RVS was a scumtell?
@fulcrum - Besides the apparent cheap shot on Dan, I like Arian in this game.
The annoying thing is that (from my perspective anyway) it isn't a cheap shot at all. Seriously, go look at Survival Horror. He gave endless excuses ITT, but he was actively posting in the scumchat (they had daychat there) for most of the game. Maybe I'm seeing through tainted glasses and it was easier for him to strategize than it was to produce content or something, but regardless, there's a strong meta link between lurk = scum in Dan's case.
And I really hate to be the one to point that out, believe me. I'm almost never around on weekends because of Magic events, and I've been called out on that in the past. One of the problems with Mafia online is that people could legit just be busy -- and if that's the case, I apologize, Dan. Likewise, though, there's no way to tell that he is actually that busy -- he could just be bull****ting us, and given what I saw in Survival Horror, I feel like we're entitled to some activity from Dan at some point here. He's firmly in my lean scum camp until such time as he does something.
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Gut had a lot to do with it. Less 'wayside', more 'seems town'.
oh, ganderin_dan; again, gut, says scummy.
So you admit that not reading your role PM before commenting on a claim leads to mislynches, and yet you push this lynch on Rodemy, who clearly does not think before he posts, for not having compared his role PM to Shock's claim?
I wanted to defuse the situation first and see who would unvote and why (no one, apparently).
I'm at work; if there aren't any customers, I can do the analysis soon.
It's your Gan_Dan read that swayed me. I had the exact same issue with him, and you pointing it out made me sure that you're in the same mindset as me.
You could ask me what questions it were that I like instead of just slinging mud at me?
Right... you're pushing the easiest to mislynch guy on the MTGS mafia forum (Rodemy) and you accuse me of going for a mislynch target.
I don't "just" throw suspicion at players and you're not the only one I want to see swinging.
No, because it is silly. Overanalysing an RVS wagon leads to nothing.
I was talking about "My reaction was bad why? Because I'm not writing off players as too scummy to be scum?". You ask her a question and answer it for her.
I'm not in the habit of overexplaining my town reads on Day 1 unless they're in danger of getting lynched. That's handing out too much info to scum.
I did give reasoning on my scumreads.
Tanarin agreed with me that not reading role PM's leads to mislynches.
I'm at work now and my notes are on my home pc. I'll copy-paste them when I'm home as to answer your first question.
I'm not sure enough of Shockwave's alignment to analyse that wagon. If scum indeed has falseclaims that include the wincon, then Shockwave jumps right up to a scumread.
I'm reluctant to claim. I will if no one unvotes, but I want to wait just a bit longer. As Rodemy said, I'm a strong PR.
This is the first vote on Rodemy when Rodemy voted Hans, realized he was at L-2 already and unvoted again.
This vote is ok, and Kosa does go after better targets later on.
Dkings votes Rodemy but leaves his options open with the "but then again" statement. He meta's him with Apocalypse, but ignores the fact that Rodemy always plays like this, not only when he's scum.
Dkings is considering an unvote....
... but this post clearly points to that being a lie: he never planned to unvote.
Again he only uses scum meta from Rodemy and ignores that he plays like that as town as well.
I believed that Tanarin really thinks he found scum, but if one of the people who knew what Tanarin was talking about (Shockwave, Fulcrum) ever flip scum, then this can be a trap for Rodemy.
This vote is null. It doesn't show if Cythare really knows what Tanarin is talking about.
This is directed at Fulcrum. Again null: this can come from both town mindset (scumhunting Fulcrum) and scum mindset (making sure someone else has to give the explanation, hence saving himself from getting caught)
This vote is ok. He wants pressure on Rodemy for a valid reason.
She votes Rodemy because Rodemy didn't see what he did wrong.
Rodemy compared roles and didn't look at the wincon, which is quite obvious if you read his post.
I'm not fond of this vote, but it doesn't have to come from a scum mentality.
Arian shows support for the lynch. He misinterprets what rodemy is trying to say here (that he's got a powerful role) as scum flailing.
I understand where Arian is coming from, nothing wrong with this semi-vote.
So analysing the current wagon, I think:
* dkings is scum;
* Tanarin is town depending on falseclaims being a thing;
* Cythare can go both ways;
* Rezombied is town;
* Fulcrum's vote is bad but can come from town
* Arian is town.
@Hans: why are you not voting?
I thought that the win condition for town is always the same across every game because the objective is always to kill all of the mafia, and I'm sure that Rodemy thought the very same thing.
However, I think that there is much better evidence against Rodemy in the form of his self vote. This was the exact same thing he did in Apocalypse mafia, and when he did it then, people began to retract their votes. Perhaps he thought that if he did it to remove suspicion one time, he could repeat it whenever he wanted for the same results.
Like I said at the beginning, I'm very stingy with my vote. If I become convinced that someone is scum, or if someone makes a convincing case, I'll vote.
Previous Mafia Experience:
Mafia aligned: 2/0 -100%
Town aligned: 4/3 - 57%
I'll try to get a post of substance up sooner than later, but considering the pace of the game, I don't think it'll be too difficult if it waits towards the end of the year.
Yes, the objective is the same, but the wording of the wincon is completely different from game to game. Just take a look at pretty much any game thread that has completed to see just how varied the wincon can be. Also given again that we are allowed to quote the wincon word for word means that it can be used to at least clear one person.
Again, I concede that there is a slight possibility scum has a full fakeclaim including wincon, but given all the evidence in thread. I highly doubt it.
@Rhand: Yes, I am pushing this lynch. I don't think Rodemy was that dumb as to make such a mistake. Especially since rezombied was making it perfectly clear that is the info he was searching for. I also can't see Rodemy posting before reading the thread either as being a possible excuse.
Will post more later.
Come join us in the MTGSalvation chat ||| My trade thread. ||| My Personal Modern Blog: The Fetchlands
Again, can you quote the posts that provoke these gut reactions?
You'll notice I gave clear reasons for my gut reads on gan_dan and Tanarin and every time I talk to you I run into a brick wall of "gut".
Why would you townread me for this even I specifically said I had a gut gan_dan scum read before I replaced in?
Hm, but that "I don't want to claim because I have a strong town role" makes me get cold feet on this lynch.
@Rhand
If you have scumreads on both dkings and dan, how come you're splitting up the wagons rather than join me on the People's Glorious Wagon on Ganderin_Dan?
I'm not too fond of hans either; he's coasting like in Apocalypse and not making himself the center of attention like in WWII.
Proph: The win con thing is makes him a slight town read instead of null. I doubt scum would have thought of that.
That makes no sense. "Arn deliberately left out the win con in the opening post, so it must have been given directly to scum." What?
This reminds me of something from the Behavioral Analysis Articles:
Claim. Now.
Nope.
RVS
---
hansanator: no vote in first post (don't like). jokes around a bit with semi-claim. Still no vote.
Tanarin: votes hansanator. Is this a joke? Seems not.
Fulcrum: hansanator vote for history reasons (ok)
Dkings: Kosa vote for history reasons (ok)
iRebel: Tanarin vote for history reasons (ok)
Gan_Dan: doesn't want to RVS (ok)
Arian: Cantrip vote for history reasons (ok)
Cythare: Hansanator vote with weird joke (don't like)
Kosa: Hansanator vote for history reasons (ok, but 4th vote in RVS?)
Rodemy breaks RVS with L-2 on Hans
----------------------------------
Kosa: votes Rodemy because he freaks out when he notices that it's the L-2 vote
Dkings: apologetic in first post (don't like). Reasoning on Hans is bad (note for if one of them flips scum) Rodemy vote is ok.
Cythare: votes Dkings for bad reason
Cantrip: weird first post. Doesn't want to acknowledge RVS is over (don't like)
Rezombied: exactly what I thought, good vote on Dkings (like)
Kosa: FOS's Dkings for good reasons
Arian: on Dkings (do not like)
Hans: Why not vote Rodemy if you like that vote least of all? (don't like)
Gan_Dan: I disagree with both the Dkings read and the Kosa read. Reasonings are ok though (ok)
Tanarin: votes Kosa for +- same reasoning as Gan_Dan did (ok) and barns Rezombied's question for Dkings (like)
Gan_dan: more agressive than what I'm used from him (don't like)
dkings: the wagon analysis is silly (ok)
Cythare: self-aware: only reacts to Dan's question, nothing else (don't like)
Fulcrum: good post with weakish but understandable Dkings vote (like)
Dkings: explains Fulcrum why he is voting Dkings because Fulcrum didn't do so (scum)
Arian: again a :fence:, this time on Kosa (don't like)
Tanarin: defends Dkings (note for if one of them flips scum) (ok)
Hans: Defense for his RVS not voting is ok (like)
Tanarin: Rodemy push is ok (like)
Dkings: complete misrep of what Fulcrum wanted to explain (don't like)
Hans: keeps defending but doesn't scumhunt (don't like)
Gan_dan: #64 is less agressive. Is he watching his tone? (ok) defense of both Hans and Dkings noted.
Tanarin: like his reasoning in #66 (like)
Dkings: total lack of scumhunting, fabricated on Rodemy
Cythare: still no content (don't like)
iRebel: dislikes the question form Rez that I do like. Calls out Kosa for barning it but not Tanarin. He even likes the post from Tanarin where he /barns that question! (scum and pointed to Hans as buddy)
Kosa: thinks iRebel is scum. Sees the same thing I saw. Like that whole post very much (town)
Arian: good iRebel vote (like)
iRebel: CFTWR
Arian: think he's town
Kosa: still like him
Gan_dan: aggressive again
Cantrip: good questions to the right people. Disagree with his Gandan read (like)
Cythare: again no content (don't like)
Tanarin: like his iRebel vote but not his Kosa reaction (ok)
Fulcrum: still like him
Dkings: why no vote on iRebel? (don't like)
Kosa: again points out what I want. Kosa is my alter-ego it seems
lots of ptaps
Dkings: keeps badly pushing Rodemy instead of moving to iRebel
iRebel replaces out --> Shockwave
-------------------
Gan_Dan: misreps Fulcrum and defends dkings. (don't like)
Hans: no content
Shock (iRebel): don't like the opening post. Self-aware ranting (don't like)
dkings: when will you start hunting scum? (don't like)
fulcrum: disagree with him on iRebel, but like his reasonings (like)
Shock: the more he posts, the scummier he seems (scum)
Proph: sees in Gan_Dan what I saw! (town)
Unvote, vote Gan_Dan
I'll claim if no one unvotes after reading my notes.
I forgot what this was. Sorry Rhand.
@fulcrum
Okay, fine. Thanks for responding.
My gut is saying that Rhand and rezombied are slight town reads. I liked the way Rhand refused to claim and rezombied is stonewalling on his responses towards me, kind of like Ghosting in Katawa Shoujo.
Prophylaxis
Arianrhod
Kosakosa
dkingsland967
Shockwave07
Rezombied
Rhand
Cythare
fulcrum
Tanarin
hansanator
ganderin_dan
Need to sort through that Cythare/fulcrum pile, when I have the chance.
I will be V/LA until 12/28.
Merry Christmas!
Recipe for disaster.
Again, I dislike this vote. Even though it's a play on words, it's fairly succinct for an RVS vote, and I think it was the third vote on hans. I'm sure Rhand remembers the RVS-breaking third vote on him on MTG Salvation Mafia.
Ehh, I guess Cythare can interpret it as smearing? I don't know. Need input on this one.
Next post is asking for clarification.
The post after that is "That's new!" - hm. Cythare, when dkings explained that to you, were you still thinking that was a smear?
Next two posts are ~fillerish.
Not sure about the "yesterday got away from me" - reads a bit self-conscious, like Arian in WWE.
Hmm. This post is pretty weird because he rags on fulcrum yet never shifts his vote to her. He keeps his vote firmly planted on dkings yet never mentions him in that post. Why, Cythare?
Did Cythare seriously random into scum for like the fifth time? (Futurama, Seppel's basic, Smalltown Swap, Empire of Astarte)
More posts about the "need" to white-knight iRebel, from Cythare. Does he follow up on his questions?
Yep, he does! He asks some pretty fine questions this time around.
And I think Cythare votes for Rodemy some where too, but it reads as a pretty barny vote. I wonder why Cythare doesn't have the spine to vote fulcrum after spending time interrogating her.
He spends a post ragging on Rodemy.
And he follows on his question-chain.
I declare this analysis inconclusive and he's still wonderfully null, as always. He has some strangeness coming out of him and I didn't like his RVS vote but he followed up on his questions and his questions are pretty good. I'll need to see more from Cythare but now I'll fencesit.
I'll do fulcrum soonish, but fulcrum has really large posts.
Cythare has been prodded. If he does not post in 48 hours he will be forcibly replaced.Rescinded
this.
I'll be V/LA until 12/26 due to Christmas and a family birthday.
Previous Mafia Experience:
Mafia aligned: 2/0 -100%
Town aligned: 4/3 - 57%
Come join us in the MTGSalvation chat ||| My trade thread. ||| My Personal Modern Blog: The Fetchlands
In fairness, Cythare's prod is rescinded. Happy Holidays to you and yours and let us come back swinging after this grace period is over.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Meh... dunno what exactly you are trying to get at here. Obviously, it was a joke that got away from her (Though I did get it when it was posted.)
I think she was trying to imply that dkings was painting her as scum for being third vote on the wagon. If you take a look at dkings' post, you can read the implication.
Now THIS part of the analysis I don't like at all. First off, while I do agree that Cythare's first sentence is a bit on the self conscious side, I do not like the fact that you imply that the post required a vote when her vote was still on one of her scumspects (Dking). Why would she need to change her vote right there when she is obviously trying to feel out just why Fulcrum did what he did. She also clarifies that she would rather vote shockwave/irebel, which is her third scumspect.
OK, so you say all this, ripping apart Cythare about as much as Cythare did to fulcrum and you STILL have a null read? After reading this, I was totally expecting you to say leaning scum.
I want to vote you right now, but I think you can wait until tomorrow. Rhand in my mind is still the lynch for today.
Come join us in the MTGSalvation chat ||| My trade thread. ||| My Personal Modern Blog: The Fetchlands
I'll pay this game a visit whenever I'm not about 102º
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sigpic.
Spider-Man Mafia 3 (Off-Site: NGA)
Metroid Mafia (Off-Site: Mafia Universe)
Really? Rezombied's attitude actually reminds me of you the last game we've played together (where you were scum).
Is succinctness in RVS a sign of scum?
****ty =(
Feel better soon!
-------------
@Tanarin:
Why do you feel that Rhand should still be the lynch toDay if you're that sure about Cythare?
Because he is caught scum. I don't believe Rodemy is as dumb/stupid as Rhand is trying to make him out to be. Especially since Rodemy was scum in his most recently completed game (Drury Lane) and for a little while he was acting the same as he was there (Until his blow up that is.) I also feel his blow up was because he was scum again and busted first again.
Come join us in the MTGSalvation chat ||| My trade thread. ||| My Personal Modern Blog: The Fetchlands
I am starting to doubt your intentions.
I already said that I am a strong PR. Do I really have to claim what that is before you abandon this silly wagon?
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
I'd expect scum to do a poor explanation of their reads, not just refuse to do it altogether.
I think I was overplaying my obstinateness/trying to imitate a townie action in that last game, and since we're on MTGS I can show you it.
Click through link for laughs.
Yes.
I'll get caught up in the morrow.
Previous Mafia Experience:
Mafia aligned: 2/0 -100%
Town aligned: 4/3 - 57%
OK replying to this first as I realized after I posted you were asking about Cythare. I am not sure on Cythare, the whole post I was responding to was from Proph, not Cythare.
@Rhand: I see you are belittling my case. I am not so much wanting to lynch you for your predecessor not reading his role PM as much as his reaction to the sudden wagon on him. If he was really town, he would have gotten the hint to read his role PM and see why people are voting. Instead he goes off and adhoms the wagon. He then proceeds to vote himself for no reason after he is given the reason why the wagon was formed.
Going and looking back on his previous behavior (Pre-breakdown), you can find he was just kinda floating. He never really tried to take a stand on anything, and just answered anything directed at him as opposed to really scumhunt anyone. His only real stand he took was on hans for not saying anything funny about the game he was just in with some other players. After that, he just kinda did not pursue the vote any longer. This is after the fact he was sick and V/LAed until that Monday, where he posted all of a one liner post.
Come join us in the MTGSalvation chat ||| My trade thread. ||| My Personal Modern Blog: The Fetchlands
Going on a citytrip to Budapest
I feel slightly horrible about calling you out for this, but you're seriously reminding me too much of Survival Horror to be kosher here. The only scum meta I know of you is from there, and you did the exact same thing -- you called v/la a few times, made a bunch of PTAPs, and lurked the rest of the time.
Content pls.
I dislike how Rhand was like "Well, I suppose I'll claim if you guys want" to "Well, nobody objected to me claiming but they should because I'm a reallly strong power role." I've seen both town and scum stall their claim, so I'm not really sure what to make of it.
I like Proph. I think that he seems pretty town.
And that's all I got for now.
@Everyone
/Request - Please ask me questions or something* from time to time to get me involved, otherwise I'll have to do something crazy/stupid to stay involved. Further analysis tells me that everyone hates it when I try to create ways to benefit the town, but since I don't really delve too far into other people's affairs I will quickly fade into oblivion if matters don't include me.
*Note: I reserve the right to deny any request if it seems to difficult to answer.
Alternatively, I could always set the brilliant plan that I currently have into motion if people are ok with it.
Previous Mafia Experience:
Mafia aligned: 2/0 -100%
Town aligned: 4/3 - 57%
Things have been a bit busier here and still coming off of the holidays. Family visits, Christmas, and a first trip to a casino not even an hours drive from my house to go gambling with family... Learned how to lose.
Which I admit adds nothing to this game. In the morning (as it is 12:34 AM here) I'll see what I can get going.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sigpic.
Spider-Man Mafia 3 (Off-Site: NGA)
Metroid Mafia (Off-Site: Mafia Universe)
Agree... plus, Rodemy/Rhand clinging to having a powerful claim really doesn't resonate much with me considering we're in a game with a bunch of JoaTs running around.
Hans, you're very familiar with Rodemy's play in Apocalypse since you guys were on the scum team together. Give his D1 play in TMNT Mafia a quick look-over and tell me which game you feel is more similar to his behavior here.
From reading through Iso's logic there, it looks like you're cherry picking out a piece of his logic that suits your needs. That one piece is supplemented by additional thoughts both on the same post and subsequent posts. It looks like you're trying to find a fence to sit on.
@Prophylaxis: How do you feel about fulcrum?
The win condition is the same from game to game, but the wording of the win condition is not. It was not provided in the opening post, and he wrote it verbatim. To echo others, I always read my role PM, including win condition. I think it's more likely that Rodemy wouldn't catch this if he was scum because he would be operating under the assumption that the wording was irrelevant (or at least wasn't the crux of it). If I don't understand something, I do two things:
a) reread parts or all of the thread
b) recheck my role PM
The fact that Rodemy wasn't able to figure it out means to me that he wasn't able to go back, read his PM and realize what was going on, because that information wasn't in his role PM.
Why are you trying to both explain away that piece of info while also providing your own reason that he's scum? Do you feel Rodemy/Rhand is scum? This looks to me like you're trying to grant yourself a potential out either way. EWP: You've stated that you don't like his refusal to claim, but still don't have a strong enough feeling to state your read on him explicitly? I've seen town refuse, but not nearly as frequently.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
I'll be back with an answer later tonight!
Because I think it's a pretty shoddy reason to have jumped on Rodemy, but I think his self-vote is actually a legitimate indication that this might be his scum game.
I understand what you are saying about the condition being verbatim, but I wouldn't expect an ill-experienced person to pick up on that. My thoughts are that Rodemy was strictly considering the role itself, and completely dismissed the wincon, hence he only quoted the role aspect of the claim (it was split into 2 separate posts, iirc, so I believe that Rodemy didn't even read the second one, or he didn't see any sort of significance).
He is currently the person that I believe most likely to be scum, but I still don't feel comfortable voting him yet, especially without a claim.
Previous Mafia Experience:
Mafia aligned: 2/0 -100%
Town aligned: 4/3 - 57%
Not usually, no, but wouldn't that make it the perfect thing to do?
Ugh, this is like the fencesittiest thing I've read in a long time.
I recognize this. I really can't explain how much I disliked it anyways. It felt out of the blue and contrived.
I'm not asking you to. It just looks like you were trying to plant something for later and then promptly forgot about it. I would be voting you for it, but I still dislike Rhand.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Every time you delay roleclaiming, I wish I had another vote to put on you.
I'm aware. Why haven't you considered that Rezombied is doing the same thing?
Please don't.
What do you think of Arianrhod?
/Barn the first couple sentences. Not sure what Cythare means by the last sentence.
Now, you're just bull****ting me. Really, I'm fencesitting because I agreed with iRebel's assessment of hans playstyle change?
I don't know if there's a good way to explain this. I thought the case against iRebel was bad, which meant that it may have been scum driven. In order to determine that, I attacked the posts against iRebel to see how Kosa and Arianrhod would respond. At the same time, Shockwave had some very susicious behavior that was worthy of scrutiny.
It's a playstyle choice, really, but I can understand how you would get that impression.
The major thing that stuck out at me this game as being really similar to apocalypse mafia was his self vote.
From reading D1 of that TMNT game, there were some noticeable things that I found very different about his play:
He was brought to 4 votes pretty early in the game, but he remained pretty calm during that, and then people saw that he was genuinely trying to scumhunt. What I find odd is that he claims to have "learned from his mistakes" which is why he doesn't "lash out" because doing so makes him appear scummy, according to him. However, I sensed frustration in this game when people started voting for him, and he self-voted, which really doesn't accomplish anything beneficial. So why wouldn't he have remained calm in this game if he did "learn from his mistakes" like he said he did?
Another thing that I found interesting was that in TMNT, he immediately pointed out that "it was odd" that a player (flubbucket) didn't vote in his first post, but he never put down a vote. At the end of the game, that player (flubbucket) flipped town. In this game, he also said that my lack of an RVS vote "was odd" but what's different is that he accompanied it with a vote. So I'm wondering how he came to believe that not voting in RVS was a scumtell?
@fulcrum - Besides the apparent cheap shot on Dan, I like Arian in this game.
Previous Mafia Experience:
Mafia aligned: 2/0 -100%
Town aligned: 4/3 - 57%
OK, how does that make sense though when he was actually given a pretty big hint in thread about the reason for the votes? How does this also make sense when he would have clearly of seen the wincon question asked in thread that something was up involving the wincon? Your logic on this part has a bunch of holes in it considering there were the mental prods BEFORE the onslaught of votes that he should have checked his role PM.
Come join us in the MTGSalvation chat ||| My trade thread. ||| My Personal Modern Blog: The Fetchlands
Yeah, to be honest, it doesn't read like it sounded in my head. Basically, it looks like he's finding potential scumtells to suit his needs, but the result of his post is that he has a neutral read on me (he actually says "but now I'll fencesit"). I don't really know what to make of it.
I'll admit that was a hyperbole, but saying something akin to "this could be indicative of scum (but it also could not be!)" is about as useful as saying "this is a null tell" while also being more frustrating because it could be misconstrued or referred to differently later. Statements like that are a peeve of mine because when confronted about it or the player flips town, one can say "I only said it may be a scumtell" so it provides an easy out, but also allows a player to go back in the event that player does flip scum and say "see I called it back then".
I'll drop this. I still don't agree with doing it, but I don't think we're ever going to see eye-to-eye on it, and at least now I better understand your reasoning behind why you did so.
It's a playstyle choice to forget about your previous statements or to plant things for later? Can you clarify what you mean here?
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
The annoying thing is that (from my perspective anyway) it isn't a cheap shot at all. Seriously, go look at Survival Horror. He gave endless excuses ITT, but he was actively posting in the scumchat (they had daychat there) for most of the game. Maybe I'm seeing through tainted glasses and it was easier for him to strategize than it was to produce content or something, but regardless, there's a strong meta link between lurk = scum in Dan's case.
And I really hate to be the one to point that out, believe me. I'm almost never around on weekends because of Magic events, and I've been called out on that in the past. One of the problems with Mafia online is that people could legit just be busy -- and if that's the case, I apologize, Dan. Likewise, though, there's no way to tell that he is actually that busy -- he could just be bull****ting us, and given what I saw in Survival Horror, I feel like we're entitled to some activity from Dan at some point here. He's firmly in my lean scum camp until such time as he does something.