Very much looking forward to Shockwave's thoughts on the wagon on his predecessor. I still believe that the slot needs to swing. Hopefully activity picks up at some point -- finals and holidays suggest it probably won't for a few weeks, though.
Second I actually agree with the votes against my slot. iRebel has earned a guarenteed RVS vote over this --------. Hell, I might through in a free 1-shot policy lynch over this. But I wonder how much he didn't read.
Did he seriously defend dKings as town after his wagon analysis and calling Hansanator likely town after the RVS quick wagon?! Especially after Fulcrum provided a counter-example to dKings quick wagon example talking about a scum started quick wagon on scum?!
That defense was dumb.
Plus that Rez-Tan dichotomy he thought he saw, this early in the game! The points that followed showed a clear progression of thoughts between Rez's and Tan's points of view.
(Placing this here in place of a long rant that can go on for pages and pages...)
I can't ask how much his reads were due to lack of reading, as he didn't give any in game indication before replacing out, but lucifer put me on a spit if I don't try to fight back into this!
Reads forthcoming, but will put this one here, Rodemy is unlikely scum in my mind despite his derpy L-2 vote. I've seen his nature. Post #60 comes across to me as a town mindset post.
Did he seriously defend dKings as town after his wagon analysis and calling Hansanator likely town after the RVS quick wagon?! Especially after Fulcrum provided a counter-example to dKings quick wagon example talking about a scum started quick wagon on scum?!
I've seen a L-1 wagon in RVS once, in a game where I was scum. My teammates were the first on the wagon, and the following four people were town. My team proceeded to lead lynches on the people on the end of the wagon. tl:dr We won. I can link it if you really want, but I'd prefer not to.
She never said the wagon was on scum... to the contrary, based on her wording I'm fairly certain the wagon in her example was on town.
Also, see the example I cited from Smalltown in which a town player was ran up to L-2 lightning fast out of RVS.
Alright, I can concede a misread about the unstated alignment of the player the wagon was on.
But the point also states where scum was on the wagon. You have not addressed the possiblity of you being incorrect on vote placement. I also think it odd after you present your example you are still voting the L-2 voter, Rodemy, when in your own example showed you voting someone to L-2. And on top of this Fulcrum added that her L-1 example scum were in early.
So while you are pointing out him as scum, why isn't the matter of your being town and Fulcrum's town last four on a RVS wagon even being mentioned?
Shockwave, for the moment I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you have not read the entire game yet. I have already addressed everything you asked about.
I don't think fulcrum would have cited that example at all if she were scum here, for two reasons. 1) It supports my suspicion that scum were pushing the L-2 wagon on Hans, and 2) it does indeed draw some attention to her placement on the wagon. Granted, there is some WIFOM involved with #2, but I'm content to stay away from it right now.
My opinion of Rodemy has been explained ad nauseum, and it isn't based on where he is on the wagon. His vote and immediate unvote reeked of self-consciousness. If his initial vote was "not RVS", as he stated when he posted it, he should not have been that concerned with how many votes there were on Hans. It reads very forced. Also, Rodemy has derped votes as scum in multiple games, and read the post I made yesterday. He is exhibiting a very similar behavioral pattern to scum!Rodemy in Apocalypse D1.
Furthermore, you never say what else besides the barn you don't like about myself, and you never say what you like about Tan, Dan and DK at all. Couple this with the slip regarding Tan's post ("liking" instead of scrutinizing it) and you have the poorest buddying attempt ever.
Normally, when someone doesn't provide reasons for their reads, you ask them for those reasons instead of arbitrarily deciding that they're scum. Why didn't you just ask iRebel for his reasoning Kosa? If he was simply buddying, as you suspected, then you could have just ripped apart whatever bs reasoning he came up with.
-) OOG note, takes space and bulks up your post without actually saying anything. Note that I'm sure you mean it, and Hans should take the compliment -- but that doesn't change the fact that it's a scummy thing to post.
-) IG note -- "I'm gonna compliment your playstyle adjustments, but hey guys, he's actually scum because he adjusted his palaystyle"
I fully agreed with iRebel on both the out of game and in game notes. What's your problem with the in game note?
-) I like A, B, and C, and agree with the popular opinion that's already been said by multiple people that we should be pressuring X. I also want to see more from Y and Z. Most formulaic scum line ever.
I view your comments towards Hans as scummy not because of what they are, but how you expressed them. Why not just wait until the game is over? What purpose does it serve to make these comments now? That's where I see the scummy nature, I certainly don't decry you for making the comments in general.
What? The purpose they serve is obvious: to compliment hans on his different playstyle and encourage him to continue it. Why should that have to wait until the end of the game?
@Kosa: There is a difference between Tan and Rez. Tan actually asks him why he didn't like Hans RVS barrage; Rez doesn't. Rez jumps on and votes DK with a rhetorical question.
Yet Tan begins that post by stating that "rezombied basically asked the question I want to ask." As in Tan would have asked the same question if Rez hadn't before, denoting that Tan and Rez's mindsets regarding Hans were the same.
Sure, Tan went a bit further adding a question of his own and Rez may have been more agressive, but the end result is the same: Tan barned Rez. And you've praised the post in which he did it while disliking mine in the same breath.
No. Asking questions is not the same thing as asking a question and voting. The extra aggression on Rez’s part and Tan’s willingness to listen to dking’s response before coming to a decision say very different things about their mindsets.
And yet you haven't felt the slightest compellence to inquire Tanarin as to why he agrees with the post you claimed to hate? Instead you just give a thumbs up to a post that barns another you've claimed to hate?
Tan: Were you agreeing with Rez’ entire post (i.e. the question and the vote) or just the question? I read it as the latter, and can see how iRebel would do the same.
And Tan’s post against iRebel is the first one that makes sense.
I don't think he was ever implying that the last two votes had to be scum in that particular post, as much as saying that scum had to be on that wagon. Yes, I know his vote is currently on the last guy on the wagon, but that is also the easiest place to look for scum ATM, and considering it is still very early on D1, it is a decent place to start looking.
The easiest place, sure. The correct place, though? I don't think so.
Where do you think the correct place was, then?
In the reactions to the wagon. That ship has sailed, though.
I think that Kosa and Rodemy are more likely to be town for their placement on the wagon. The wagon has no effect for my reads of hans, Tanarin and Cythare. For what it's worth, I didn't realize that dkings has never had a scum game before and the early analysis of the hans wagon is something I would really only expect from an experienced scum.
So in short, then, you think that there is no scum on that wagon. Correct?
How did you get "there is no scum on that wagon" from "Kosa and Rodemy are more likely to be town for their placement on the wagon. The wagon has no effect for my reads of hans, Tanarin and Cythare"? Of course not. In the long run, the wagon itself is a distraction. The interesting stuff comes from the reactions afterwards.
Second I actually agree with the votes against my slot. iRebel has earned a guarenteed RVS vote over this --------. Hell, I might through in a free 1-shot policy lynch over this. But I wonder how much he didn't read.
Did he seriously defend dKings as town after his wagon analysis and calling Hansanator likely town after the RVS quick wagon?! Especially after Fulcrum provided a counter-example to dKings quick wagon example talking about a scum started quick wagon on scum?!
That defense was dumb.
Plus that Rez-Tan dichotomy he thought he saw, this early in the game! The points that followed showed a clear progression of thoughts between Rez's and Tan's points of view.
(Placing this here in place of a long rant that can go on for pages and pages...)
I can't ask how much his reads were due to lack of reading, as he didn't give any in game indication before replacing out, but lucifer put me on a spit if I don't try to fight back into this!
Reads forthcoming, but will put this one here, Rodemy is unlikely scum in my mind despite his derpy L-2 vote. I've seen his nature. Post #60 comes across to me as a town mindset post.
Oh man, I just wrote that whole thing defending iRebel and now you’re making me want to lynch you for being overly critical of your predecessor. But hey, good news is if Shockwave is scum, that third paragraph says dkings is his scummate.
You think you would actually see if the person who replaces in for a person who didn't put up much of a fight would defend themselves before posting this... I feel one curse has ended and decided the next curse should fall on me. Ugh... At least see how the rest of my games wrap up before making that official. (Futurama is currently my only completed game, endgame post is coming soon, but at the moment the game is unofficially over.)
If I don't agree with a player's stance as I come into a game I'll state it as I did. If I am scum for it, so be it. I don't like the way dKings was oppertunistic about the way he handled the wagon analysis and I didn't see those angles at which iRebel stances on subject could have been defended. So I have to give you your due for seeing them.
The timing of you posting it feels oppertunistic however, but I am in a position where anything I say against you is practical OGMUS. I'll probably do what iRebel should have done and man up for what is likely a death scene coming up.
That said I do intend to get full reads out before then.
@dKings: I hadn't yet stated an opinion on Fulcrum, though I do agree with your stance on the info usage/alignment read about Fulcrum. That isn't the issue.
I have seen Rodemy in action though both cases are still under the wraps of games in progress. But I can say I have had a taste of his recent antics. Plus I don't put a lot of stock into self awareness, I would have reacted in a similar manner putting up an L-2, unless I was scum trying to avoid looking jumpy or a townie that had been put in a spot that I would likely die anyways.
As it does seem the case around here, the jumpy ones always draw heat. He probably knew this doing what he did. He might have even timed it to look like an accident, I don't know! While I do think what he did was not the brightest move, it is not a guarenteed scum move, even from Rodemy.
And yes, I am following up on his post pressure reactions.
EBWOP: Correction, Futurama is my only completed game on site. Have two other completed games which I can link on request. Two on-going games off site (though one I believe is about to be abandoned :/. ) and three on-going on site.
You think you would actually see if the person who replaces in for a person who didn't put up much of a fight would defend themselves before posting this... I feel one curse has ended and decided the next curse should fall on me. Ugh... At least see how the rest of my games wrap up before making that official. (Futurama is currently my only completed game, endgame post is coming soon, but at the moment the game is unofficially over.)
If I don't agree with a player's stance as I come into a game I'll state it as I did. If I am scum for it, so be it. I don't like the way dKings was oppertunistic about the way he handled the wagon analysis and I didn't see those angles at which iRebel stances on subject could have been defended. So I have to give you your due for seeing them.
The timing of you posting it feels oppertunistic however, but I am in a position where anything I say against you is practical OGMUS. I'll probably do what iRebel should have done and man up for what is likely a death scene coming up.
Shockwave: I don't have a problem with you disagreeing with iRebel's stances. My issues stem from your word choice:
Rebel has earned a guarenteed RVS vote over this --------. Hell, I might through in a free 1-shot policy lynch over this. But I wonder how much he didn't read.
snip
(Placing this here in place of a long rant that can go on for pages and pages...)
snip
I can't ask how much his reads were due to lack of reading, as he didn't give any in game indication before replacing out, but lucifer put me on a spit if I don't try to fight back into this!
There's too much anger and derision there for a town replacement in a bad spot.
Try to chill out a bit. For the moment, I'm not adding to your wagon while Kosa and Arianrhod are on it.
-) OOG note, takes space and bulks up your post without actually saying anything. Note that I'm sure you mean it, and Hans should take the compliment -- but that doesn't change the fact that it's a scummy thing to post.
-) IG note -- "I'm gonna compliment your playstyle adjustments, but hey guys, he's actually scum because he adjusted his palaystyle"
I fully agreed with iRebel on both the out of game and in game notes. What's your problem with the in game note?
I view your comments towards Hans as scummy not because of what they are, but how you expressed them. Why not just wait until the game is over? What purpose does it serve to make these comments now? That's where I see the scummy nature, I certainly don't decry you for making the comments in general.
What? The purpose they serve is obvious: to compliment hans on his different playstyle and encourage him to continue it. Why should that have to wait until the end of the game?
Dan actually made more sense than I did about this when he /barned me on it, but I'll try to reiterate and give my perspective.
I'm a pretty friendly individual. I'm very easy to offend, because of that -- my intentions are pretty much always good-hearted, and Mafia....isn't really a good game for that. That being, said, I think that most people that I've played with a lot will vouch for me that over the past year I've grown a bit thicker of a skin. One of the things that I used to do a lot was make out-of-game notes, commenting on this-or-that -- sometimes complimenting someone (as Rebel did here), sometimes on some philosophical/theoretical sidepoint, and so forth.
I got BLASTED for them (and rightly so)
I've learned the hard way that anything that you write in a game thread, until such time as the game is over, can and will be used against you in court of law, so to speak. It doesn't matter if you're being a nice person. It doesn't matter if you have the literal best of intentions. It will be examined, and 9/10 it will be found wanting.
Scum have a high motivation for wanting to make such comments. They could be buddying with town (compliments, after all, naturally make us predisposed to like the person from which they stem). They could be just trying to look busy in the thread when they don't really have much to say. This one is particularly damning given how slow the thread has been. There's nothing really for the scum to jump on, so they're either going to be lurking or trying to look busy while they wait for people to do stuff.
Furthermore, I still believe that there's enough fishy going on with Rebel to justify my scum read even WITHOUT the out-of-game comment. The fact that he made it, though, and the way in which it was made makes me suspicious of it.
Is there a chance that Rebel was just being a genuinely nice guy? Sure. I've been there. I know those feels. It sucks. But damnit, nobody held my hand when I started to play mafia and slapped me on the wrist before I opened my big fat mouth. Maybe next time he'll think twice before saying something in the thread that really shouldn't be said during the game.
Add to everything else that he replaced out under pressure, and I really believe that we need to have Shockwave flip. I feel kind of bad about that for Shockwave's sake, but I think even Shockwave knows how it looks. Maybe Rebel was genuinely frustrated. Maybe he was scum and he was trying to do damage control because he knew he was caught. There's no way we can know for sure without a flip at this point. If the game was more active I might be willing to let him live a day and prove himself (give him more chances to slip), but unless we want to just start policy lynching lurkers and hope that we hit one blind, I don't see alternatives.
Quote from Fulcrum »
Try to chill out a bit. For the moment, I'm not adding to your wagon while Kosa and Arianrhod are on it.
I agree with fulcrum's comments regarding Shockwave showing how flawed his past self was. I don't think it's conclusive, but the only other time that I have seen a similar situation, the person was scum.
I really didn't think that iRebel was scum, compared to his WWII game, but now Shockwave worries me.
I feel kinda good about Arian. I believe this is the first time in 3 games that I haven't had an apathetic read of him, but I don't really see scum giving the whole "nice guy" speech.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I'm a compulsive liar no matter what team I play on, but I'm trying to get better about it."
@Kosa: Given the timestamp of Rodemy's vote, how is his vote any worse than yours?
My vote was RVS whereas Rodemy's wasn't?
What bugged me wasn't Rodemy putting Hans at L-2: it was him stating his vote was serious without delving into details, only to suddenly back off after realizing he had put Hans at L-2.
@Kosa: I'm sorry, but your post #33 reads as a veiled attempt to defend Rodemy. Especially since you seem to have had more criticism of dking than you did of Rodemy. And while yes I will agree it is an RVS wagon, it does not mean info can not be gleaned from said wagon. To discredit said evidence is asinine.
I wasn't defending Rodemy: I was attacking someone who was joining the wagon with what I've perceived as scummy intent.
And regarding the RVS wagon, yes, I agree that info can be gleaned from it. But trying to analyze the RVS votes as if they were serious is a waste of time.
Also, do you feel that Rodemy's explanation of his unvote was sufficient? I still think, considering his vote was labeled as serious when he posted it, that Hans being brought to claim range should not have mattered to him.
Normally, when someone doesn't provide reasons for their reads, you ask them for those reasons instead of arbitrarily deciding that they're scum. Why didn't you just ask iRebel for his reasoning Kosa? If he was simply buddying, as you suspected, then you could have just ripped apart whatever bs reasoning he came up with.
Bold: wait... what? When have I "arbitrarily decided" he was scum? Haven't you read my case?
The lack of reasons on his reads wasn't what made me believe he was scum: it only complemented it. iRebel's scumslip was the actual fabricated reads themselves, as there's no way he could have liked Tan's post if he truly disliked Rez's (and my barn).
Also, I've attempted to rip him apart. But as you can see, he replaced out before addressing my last post.
No. Asking questions is not the same thing as asking a question and voting. The extra aggression on Rez’s part and Tan’s willingness to listen to dking’s response before coming to a decision say very different things about their mindsets.
No it doesn't. It says different things about their playstyles, not mindsets. Aggressiveness can come from either alignment, as can level-headedness.
There's simply no way someone true to their stated opinion would have hated Rez's post and my barn while liking Tan's without not even explaining why, and iRebel failed to explain it when pointed to it.
-) I like A, B, and C, and agree with the popular opinion that's already been said by multiple people that we should be pressuring X. I also want to see more from Y and Z. Most formulaic scum line ever.
Tan: Were you agreeing with Rez’ entire post (i.e. the question and the vote) or just the question? I read it as the latter, and can see how iRebel would do the same.
It was indeed the latter (just the question.) It was a question that needed to be asked.
@shockwave: I would really appreciate seeing your reads on the game before I decide if I am going to move my vote or not. The fact that you felt the need to basically backtrack on everything your predecessor said as opposed to posting your reads right away is off. One would think that there would be no need for doing such action if you were town.
@Arianhod: I don't know if I agree that shock HAS to be the lynch today, but he is the leading candidate for one as of now. I think once he posts his full reads on the game and we get some reactions, we can then make that decision.
@Kosa: Hmm... Nice catch on that flip of opinion from fulcrum. I need to re-read her last couple of posts again though before I say more (I am confused as to how to interpret the posts.)
Normally, when someone doesn't provide reasons for their reads, you ask them for those reasons instead of arbitrarily deciding that they're scum. Why didn't you just ask iRebel for his reasoning Kosa? If he was simply buddying, as you suspected, then you could have just ripped apart whatever bs reasoning he came up with.
Bold: wait... what? When have I "arbitrarily decided" he was scum? Haven't you read my case?
The lack of reasons on his reads wasn't what made me believe he was scum: it only complemented it. iRebel's scumslip was the actual fabricated reads themselves, as there's no way he could have liked Tan's post if he truly disliked Rez's (and my barn).
I've read your case, and it was bad, in part because he could have easily liked Tan's post while disliking Rez. You're trying to create a false dichtonomy here.
Also, I've attempted to rip him apart. But as you can see, he replaced out before addressing my last post.
That's not what I'm asking. I want to know why you didn't ask him to elaborate on his reads before trying to shove a lynch down his throat. He may have had valid reasons, but now we'll never know.
No. Asking questions is not the same thing as asking a question and voting. The extra aggression on Rez’s part and Tan’s willingness to listen to dking’s response before coming to a decision say very different things about their mindsets.
No it doesn't. It says different things about their playstyles, not mindsets. Aggressiveness can come from either alignment, as can level-headedness.
There's simply no way someone true to their stated opinion would have hated Rez's post and my barn while liking Tan's without not even explaining why, and iRebel failed to explain it when pointed to it.
@Kosa: There is a difference between Tan and Rez. Tan actually asks him why he didn't like Hans RVS barrage; Rez doesn't. Rez jumps on and votes DK with a rhetorical question.
Look at the posts again. It's not just a difference between aggression and level-headed behavior. Rez was using his question as a reason to lynch dkings, while Tan was actively trying to figure dkings' mindset out and not limiting his focus to dkings.
1. I'm not adding to a wagon when I don't agree with the reasoning of most of the people on it. 2.The RVS thing gave you a slight town read in my eyes. That's going to change.
Tan: Were you agreeing with Rez’ entire post (i.e. the question and the vote) or just the question? I read it as the latter, and can see how iRebel would do the same.
It was indeed the latter (just the question.) It was a question that needed to be asked.
o_O Others beat me to the draw , but again, why do you hate rezombied post over what I said a few posts later (As Kosa put, I did basically barn what he said and added a question of my own.)
1) Why did you feel the need to white knight iRebel?
Three reasons:
1. He can't do it himself.
2. I don't like Kosa's and Arianrhod's arguments.
3. I screwed up recently in a game on another site, when there was a bull**** case against someone I had as leaning town. I decided to let him defend himself a bit before I ripped into the person attacking him. In the three hours I was gone, a wagon was run up on him and accidentally hammered. He flipped town, and if we hadn't lynched him, we most likely would have won that game. I'm not going to let that happen here. If we lynch Shockwave, it damn well better be for good reasons.
What position change? The RVS thing is something in his favor, just as the bad case is something against him. If you're asking why I didn't bring this up earlier, the answer is that I wasn't reading the thread closely during finals.
Alright, I slogged through the thread while working out, and bleh.
I can tell that this the type of game that's going to be extremely painful to reread, a la Amistarian 3 or Day 1 of Hobbit. I'm not sure what to call it, but I usually like reading through games, and this has the.. hard to describe tinge that makes reading it a chore. I think it's stemming from the multiple quotewalls and long, drawn out responses, but ugh.
Now that's out of the way, I think I'm going to unvote - I was skimming this thread prior to replacing in and I didn't have great pre-replacement reads, so my first thought when I replaced in was "replace in, naked vote a gut-scum read, get immediate reactions and go to town" a la [REDACTED] (I replaced in without having read the thread and got good town reads based on doing this - fulcrum can attest).
However, with the slow way things are going so far, I realized that I was hardly going to get any meaningful reactions from it (especially when most people can ignore the vote) so I'm instead opting to go for the grind and provide readslist, plus thoughts on things.
And yeah, I read the thread, and ehh. Part of the reason why I stated that it's so hard to read the thread is that a byproduct of that is that I found it difficult to extract clear reads from players - usually I get into a groove thing where I'm considered obvtown and just endlessly poke people with sticks for Day 1. (Apocalypse, Majora's Mask) I'm feel like I'm going to have a difficult time getting into my obvtown groove for this game, based on how slow this game is going + the big proof of verbosity arguments people are breaking out. (This is a public plea to to /stop/ with the big posts, guys. You're turning this game into D1 of Hobbit and that was extremely painful to follow)
Arian and Kosa both read extremely genuinely in regards to their attack on the iRebel slot. I'd be pretty surprised if one of them flipped scum, but right now, they're a pretty clear town bloc, and that's nice to have.
dkings is a little behind but I liked his attempts at analyzing the early RVS wagon (feels like something I would do, as town), and I liked #87, where he questioned why people had a town read on him.
Rest of everybody is pretty null. Cythare's been nonexistant (I remember his and fulcrum's minimalistic RVS votes rubbing me the wrong way, though), fulcrum has really large posts that I can't make heads or tails of, hans is.. another nonexistant guy, rezombied is lurking, and Rodemy was a discussion point but that's about it.
Tanarin and gan_dan are gut scum reads.
I'm not a huge fan of Tan's #13 - the whole post feels a bit "taking the joke too far" and his second response feels wholly forced.
gan_dan had a tone-change problem - his quotes, "+s", and @s reminded me of Survival Horror scum!gan_dan, and his tone felt more.. aggressive? Snarky? I mean I felt he was pretty mellow in Dr. P, and feeling out a tone change like this reminded me on scum!Cantrip in Apocalypse, who had a massive tone change as scum.
I'm perfectly fine adding another vote to the Shockwave wagon. I disliked iRebel's responses and fully barn the case against him, but I noticed two more things - iRebel replacing out felt like a scum!replacement due to pressure (almost glad I didn't replace that slot - got nath'd by Shockwave by 7 minutes, IIRC) and Shockwave's #105 where he rages on iRebel felt like - oh, what the heck, since fulcrum loves that mentor chat (I do so too), let me requote it:
Quote from Voxxicus »
If you see someone try to distance themselves forcibly from their predecessor, they're scum more often than not.
It's a sign of a scum mindset for the most part - they're trying to be seen as town, when town generally won't be considering that as heavily.
People that mention how scummy their slot is, 75% scum. Infectiousbaloth in FHF is a good example of that.
Shockwave's #105 is a textbook example of the bolded and I'm perfectly fine with whinging him.
3. I screwed up recently in a game on another site, when there was a bull**** case against someone I had as leaning town. I decided to let him defend himself a bit before I ripped into the person attacking him. In the three hours I was gone, a wagon was run up on him and accidentally hammered. He flipped town, and if we hadn't lynched him, we most likely would have won that game. I'm not going to let that happen here. If we lynch Shockwave, it damn well better be for good reasons.
3. I screwed up recently in a game on another site, when there was a bull**** case against someone I had as leaning town. I decided to let him defend himself a bit before I ripped into the person attacking him. In the three hours I was gone, a wagon was run up on him and accidentally hammered. He flipped town, and if we hadn't lynched him, we most likely would have won that game. I'm not going to let that happen here. If we lynch Shockwave, it damn well better be for good reasons.
May derps to end all derps occur in all of your games.
The truth now. You are iRebel's scumbuddy, aren't you?
FoS fulcrum
Uh.
No.
Unless fulcrum secretly broke in and read one of my draft articles for a hypothetical mafia blog I'm starting, I'm considering iRebel and fulcrum an unaligned pair. Scum don't usually buddy up with other scum, and I don't think that fulcrum would be so blatant ("I'm going to white knight iRebel!") in buddying up to iRebel.
In fact, tack that on as another reason I want to lynch Shockwave - he flips scum, I clear fulcrum. That'll be exciting, with a scum dead and three solid town reads.
@fulcrum
I liked the "formulatic response" + the hate/barn thing that Kosa pointed out.
I can't give you the reasons /why/ I like them - I simply read Kosa's and Arian's responses against iRebel's posts and I was swayed, plus the host of other new reasons that I mentioned.
Also, the fact that Shockwave's first few posts are "I hate my replacement!" as well as ":facepalm: defending" make me want to fry him. I don't see any scumhunting in those responses; no attempts to Figure Things Out.
See Voxx when he replaced in Hobbit; he said "I think I'm going to be lynched" then made efforts to solve the game when he replaced in. Shockwave's replace in is almost the antithesis of that.
Quote from fulcrum »
May derps to end all derps occur in all of your games.
Also, something that felt ~weird when I was reading:
I didn't like iRebel, and if I were more active I would have been able to question him. And Shockwave hasn't done anything to make me think he was town.
I like Tanarin the most, as I was reading through, a lot of the questions that I was going to ask got asked by him (121 for example)
Most of these are just kind of gut reads that I arranged as I read through. I didn't keep notes or anything.
I need to do some re-reading, but first a few directed questions:
@Hans: How was iRebel different in this game from WWII?
-------------------------
@Proph: /barn fulcrum... I also don't see what you see in Tanarin. He's one of my biggest town reads. What do you make of those RVS posts when considering Hans's comments about the IRC game that had just taken place?
Also, for you: You have a gun and you have to shoot one of Rodemy, Cythare or Rezombied. Who do you shoot, and why?
-------------------------
About Shockwave:
I took a look at a couple of Shockwave's other games. I can't go into much detail because all but Futurama are GIPs, but I did think he was obvscum once and was wrong.
When he replaced into Futurama, his first 5-10 posts were... weird... but the behavior doesn't match his behavior here.
@Shockwave: Have you ever replaced into a game when your predecessor was under pressure? If so, can you link it?
This is something that's already been pointed out, but iRebel's #69 reads scummily to me.
I'm curious as to why fulcrum felt the *need* to defend him. The pressure applied wasn't something that was unreasonable for a replacement to deal with, and white-knighting this early on reads like scum trying to defuse a potential issue for a scumbuddy.
@fulcrum - What do you mean by "I agree with both the out of game and in game notes"? You agree with him posting them or you agree with his stance? Do you disagree that the post was formulaic or do you just not see the scum motivation behind it?
After you white-knight him, you immediately double back and call Shockwave07 scummy, and even include it in the same post.
Relatedly, #110 also reads self-conscious to me. Leading with "You think you would actually see if the person who replaces in for a person who didn't put up much of a fight would defend themselves before posting this" seems unnecessary. While I agree that fulcrum should have waited, I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish (if anything) by stating it outright.
I'd vote for Shockwave, but if the votes on iRebel didn't reset, I think he's already at L-2.
----------
Right now I'm feeling a scum team of: Shockwave07, dkingsland, fulcrum
@dKings: This is the very first game that I have replaced in for a slot under pressure.
I only have one completed game here as town, and one completed game as scum that I have ever replaced into. Futurama being the former and my predecessor did nothing of note in that game besides one post with content. If someone was to ask me about it I'd say I disagreed with him on it. But he had only fringe attention if any from players in that game.
The other game I replaced in was a scum game that my predecessor had pulled a well executed bus. No pressure at all.
@Cythare: I am always self-concious. But my point with the note was why defend someone when the person who made the original arguement is out of the game and you don't know what the new person will do yet?
You do agree that Fulcrum's behavior is out of place do you not? Arguing away what in her mind are bad points only to see new bad ones pop up on me, and not vote based on two players voting me for bad reasoning? I tend to see antics like this from town players and more often than not they are going down the wrong road.
@Cythare: I am always self-concious. But my point with the note was why defend someone when the person who made the original arguement is out of the game and you don't know what the new person will do yet?
You do agree that Fulcrum's behavior is out of place do you not? Arguing away what in her mind are bad points only to see new bad ones pop up on me, and not vote based on two players voting me for bad reasoning? I tend to see antics like this from town players and more often than not they are going down the wrong road.
1) Agreed on the white-knighting being out of place (as noted previously).
2) Can you rephrase the second part? Are you saying that you think fulcrum is town? What about his actions/approach make it a town-specific thing to do?
@Cythare: It is less actions based and more drawing a comparison to a similar mindset I have seen before. I have seen town players before that absolutely refuse to take any action simply because they don't like points brought up against a player/don't like the players voting them. They prefer everything to be logical according to their sensibilities, even if other players actively disagree with them.
On top of that as long as they feel something is off they will actively argue all further point if they feel it isn't right.
Fulcrum may not be an extreme example of this, but I often see this coming from town players over scum in my still growing mafia game expirience.
I'm not seeing what you're seeing here, Proph. This looks like normal rvs.
I'll go through the rest in the morning.
The "not that I mind or anything" feels out of place - it feels forced. I'm not sure how to convey it via words but it reads to me like that and it drew it out of me on a gut level.
The RVS posts just feel /wrong/, if you catch my drift.
I didn't like iRebel, and if I were more active I would have been able to question him. And Shockwave hasn't done anything to make me think he was town.
I like Tanarin the most, as I was reading through, a lot of the questions that I was going to ask got asked by him (121 for example)
Most of these are just kind of gut reads that I arranged as I read through. I didn't keep notes or anything.
Can you at least try to explain your gut reads, as I did with gan_dan and Tanarin a couple posts up? I've seen this "readslist no explanation" from you in Apocalypse before (where you were scum) and I hope you're not doing something similar.
@Proph: /barn fulcrum... I also don't see what you see in Tanarin. He's one of my biggest town reads. What do you make of those RVS posts when considering Hans's comments about the IRC game that had just taken place?
Also, for you: You have a gun and you have to shoot one of Rodemy, Cythare or Rezombied. Who do you shoot, and why?
For the RVS comments by Tan, see above. I'm on an iPad right now so I hope that's a decent explanation - if you think I didn't go in too deep enough tell if I should expand or expound on it more.
I cannot answer your gun question at this time without poking my null reads with sticks. They're all ~nullish to me and I will need to dive into them further.
(Though purely on a "selfish" level: rezombied because he's the weakest of the trio, and I don't want another derp!hammer like what he did in Futurama, if we're in a lylo situation)
Right now I'm feeling a scum team of: Shockwave07, dkingsland, fulcrum
What do you think about my post about fulcrum and Shockwave being an unaligned pair, due to fulcrum white-knighting iRebel?
I don't think they're scumbuddies together - I feel like fulcrum would probably go for the early bus as soon as pressure mounted on iRebel, rather than defending him in a very visible manner.
Right now I'm feeling a scum team of: Shockwave07, dkingsland, fulcrum
What do you think about my post about fulcrum and Shockwave being an unaligned pair, due to fulcrum white-knighting iRebel?
I don't think they're scumbuddies together - I feel like fulcrum would probably go for the early bus as soon as pressure mounted on iRebel, rather than defending him in a very visible manner.
I understand where you're coming from, but I don't necessarily agree with it. While I get that most scumbuddies would go the bus route, something about the timing and perceived need to white-knight iRebel doesn't sit right with me.
Can you at least try to explain your gut reads, as I did with gan_dan and Tanarin a couple posts up? I've seen this "readslist no explanation" from you in Apocalypse before (where you were scum) and I hope you're not doing something similar.
Who, in particular would you like me to explain my read of? I explained why I liked tanarin and disliked shockwave.
Like I said, I didn't take notes. But I will be happy to expound upon a particular read if asked.
1) Why did you feel the need to white knight iRebel?
Three reasons:
1. He can't do it himself.
2. I don't like Kosa's and Arianrhod's arguments.
3. I screwed up recently in a game on another site, when there was a bull**** case against someone I had as leaning town. I decided to let him defend himself a bit before I ripped into the person attacking him. In the three hours I was gone, a wagon was run up on him and accidentally hammered. He flipped town, and if we hadn't lynched him, we most likely would have won that game. I'm not going to let that happen here. If we lynch Shockwave, it damn well better be for good reasons.
Surely though you can see letting him try and work his own way out of his lynch is better in the early game. While trying to save a person you truly believe is town is good later on. Way more info can be gathered not only from his reactions, but the reactions to his reactions.
What position change? The RVS thing is something in his favor, just as the bad case is something against him. If you're asking why I didn't bring this up earlier, the answer is that I wasn't reading the thread closely during finals.
OK, fair enough. You can see though why it feels so sudden though? You went from one post saying you liked what he said, to your next in game post saying you did not like him.
As for my post 84 vs my post 114: Yes, it does seem like I contradicted myself a bit, but again, I agreed with the IDEA behind his post, not the fact that he is scummy for said lack of question (And thus voting him.)
@Proph: OK so let me get your case on me. You are basically saying I am leaning scum in your mind because of an RVS post I made and how I wrote down a vote. I really don't know what you are trying to get at, nor is there anything to defend/address IMO. Just seems like a really weak case on me.
As far as the rest of your reads, why leaning scum on GD exactly? I know you mention tone change, but how? Are you saying he is too mellow and he used Dr P to experiment? You trying to say his tone is closer to that of Survival Horror? Please clarify this for me.
Look at that Rodemy said, and WHEN he said it. Then look at the post you just quoted. There is no reason for Rodemy to have such indecision when you put the pieces together.
Hello, Shockwave!
Wow, it seems like everyone had a super busy week. Hopefully activity will begin to pick back up now.
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Town aligned: 4/3 - 57%
Second I actually agree with the votes against my slot. iRebel has earned a guarenteed RVS vote over this --------. Hell, I might through in a free 1-shot policy lynch over this. But I wonder how much he didn't read.
Did he seriously defend dKings as town after his wagon analysis and calling Hansanator likely town after the RVS quick wagon?! Especially after Fulcrum provided a counter-example to dKings quick wagon example talking about a scum started quick wagon on scum?!
That defense was dumb.
Plus that Rez-Tan dichotomy he thought he saw, this early in the game! The points that followed showed a clear progression of thoughts between Rez's and Tan's points of view.
(Placing this here in place of a long rant that can go on for pages and pages...)
I can't ask how much his reads were due to lack of reading, as he didn't give any in game indication before replacing out, but lucifer put me on a spit if I don't try to fight back into this!
Reads forthcoming, but will put this one here, Rodemy is unlikely scum in my mind despite his derpy L-2 vote. I've seen his nature. Post #60 comes across to me as a town mindset post.
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Eh? You need to read fulcrum's post again.
She never said the wagon was on scum... to the contrary, based on her wording I'm fairly certain the wagon in her example was on town.
Also, see the example I cited from Smalltown in which a town player was ran up to L-2 lightning fast out of RVS.
But the point also states where scum was on the wagon. You have not addressed the possiblity of you being incorrect on vote placement. I also think it odd after you present your example you are still voting the L-2 voter, Rodemy, when in your own example showed you voting someone to L-2. And on top of this Fulcrum added that her L-1 example scum were in early.
So while you are pointing out him as scum, why isn't the matter of your being town and Fulcrum's town last four on a RVS wagon even being mentioned?
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I don't think fulcrum would have cited that example at all if she were scum here, for two reasons. 1) It supports my suspicion that scum were pushing the L-2 wagon on Hans, and 2) it does indeed draw some attention to her placement on the wagon. Granted, there is some WIFOM involved with #2, but I'm content to stay away from it right now.
My opinion of Rodemy has been explained ad nauseum, and it isn't based on where he is on the wagon. His vote and immediate unvote reeked of self-consciousness. If his initial vote was "not RVS", as he stated when he posted it, he should not have been that concerned with how many votes there were on Hans. It reads very forced. Also, Rodemy has derped votes as scum in multiple games, and read the post I made yesterday. He is exhibiting a very similar behavioral pattern to scum!Rodemy in Apocalypse D1.
Normally, when someone doesn't provide reasons for their reads, you ask them for those reasons instead of arbitrarily deciding that they're scum. Why didn't you just ask iRebel for his reasoning Kosa? If he was simply buddying, as you suspected, then you could have just ripped apart whatever bs reasoning he came up with.
I fully agreed with iRebel on both the out of game and in game notes. What's your problem with the in game note?
This, I actually agree with.
What? The purpose they serve is obvious: to compliment hans on his different playstyle and encourage him to continue it. Why should that have to wait until the end of the game?
No. Asking questions is not the same thing as asking a question and voting. The extra aggression on Rez’s part and Tan’s willingness to listen to dking’s response before coming to a decision say very different things about their mindsets.
Tan: Were you agreeing with Rez’ entire post (i.e. the question and the vote) or just the question? I read it as the latter, and can see how iRebel would do the same.
And Tan’s post against iRebel is the first one that makes sense.
Moving on.
It was entirely RVS, except for the last vote, but I don't think the guy who placed that had been reading the thread.
In the reactions to the wagon. That ship has sailed, though.
How did you get "there is no scum on that wagon" from "Kosa and Rodemy are more likely to be town for their placement on the wagon. The wagon has no effect for my reads of hans, Tanarin and Cythare"? Of course not. In the long run, the wagon itself is a distraction. The interesting stuff comes from the reactions afterwards.
Oh man, I just wrote that whole thing defending iRebel and now you’re making me want to lynch you for being overly critical of your predecessor. But hey, good news is if Shockwave is scum, that third paragraph says dkings is his scummate.
You think you would actually see if the person who replaces in for a person who didn't put up much of a fight would defend themselves before posting this... I feel one curse has ended and decided the next curse should fall on me. Ugh... At least see how the rest of my games wrap up before making that official. (Futurama is currently my only completed game, endgame post is coming soon, but at the moment the game is unofficially over.)
If I don't agree with a player's stance as I come into a game I'll state it as I did. If I am scum for it, so be it. I don't like the way dKings was oppertunistic about the way he handled the wagon analysis and I didn't see those angles at which iRebel stances on subject could have been defended. So I have to give you your due for seeing them.
The timing of you posting it feels oppertunistic however, but I am in a position where anything I say against you is practical OGMUS. I'll probably do what iRebel should have done and man up for what is likely a death scene coming up.
That said I do intend to get full reads out before then.
@dKings: I hadn't yet stated an opinion on Fulcrum, though I do agree with your stance on the info usage/alignment read about Fulcrum. That isn't the issue.
I have seen Rodemy in action though both cases are still under the wraps of games in progress. But I can say I have had a taste of his recent antics. Plus I don't put a lot of stock into self awareness, I would have reacted in a similar manner putting up an L-2, unless I was scum trying to avoid looking jumpy or a townie that had been put in a spot that I would likely die anyways.
As it does seem the case around here, the jumpy ones always draw heat. He probably knew this doing what he did. He might have even timed it to look like an accident, I don't know! While I do think what he did was not the brightest move, it is not a guarenteed scum move, even from Rodemy.
And yes, I am following up on his post pressure reactions.
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Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sigpic.
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Metroid Mafia (Off-Site: Mafia Universe)
Shockwave: I don't have a problem with you disagreeing with iRebel's stances. My issues stem from your word choice:
There's too much anger and derision there for a town replacement in a bad spot.
Try to chill out a bit. For the moment, I'm not adding to your wagon while Kosa and Arianrhod are on it.
Dan actually made more sense than I did about this when he /barned me on it, but I'll try to reiterate and give my perspective.
I'm a pretty friendly individual. I'm very easy to offend, because of that -- my intentions are pretty much always good-hearted, and Mafia....isn't really a good game for that. That being, said, I think that most people that I've played with a lot will vouch for me that over the past year I've grown a bit thicker of a skin. One of the things that I used to do a lot was make out-of-game notes, commenting on this-or-that -- sometimes complimenting someone (as Rebel did here), sometimes on some philosophical/theoretical sidepoint, and so forth.
I got BLASTED for them (and rightly so)
I've learned the hard way that anything that you write in a game thread, until such time as the game is over, can and will be used against you in court of law, so to speak. It doesn't matter if you're being a nice person. It doesn't matter if you have the literal best of intentions. It will be examined, and 9/10 it will be found wanting.
Scum have a high motivation for wanting to make such comments. They could be buddying with town (compliments, after all, naturally make us predisposed to like the person from which they stem). They could be just trying to look busy in the thread when they don't really have much to say. This one is particularly damning given how slow the thread has been. There's nothing really for the scum to jump on, so they're either going to be lurking or trying to look busy while they wait for people to do stuff.
Furthermore, I still believe that there's enough fishy going on with Rebel to justify my scum read even WITHOUT the out-of-game comment. The fact that he made it, though, and the way in which it was made makes me suspicious of it.
Is there a chance that Rebel was just being a genuinely nice guy? Sure. I've been there. I know those feels. It sucks. But damnit, nobody held my hand when I started to play mafia and slapped me on the wrist before I opened my big fat mouth. Maybe next time he'll think twice before saying something in the thread that really shouldn't be said during the game.
Add to everything else that he replaced out under pressure, and I really believe that we need to have Shockwave flip. I feel kind of bad about that for Shockwave's sake, but I think even Shockwave knows how it looks. Maybe Rebel was genuinely frustrated. Maybe he was scum and he was trying to do damage control because he knew he was caught. There's no way we can know for sure without a flip at this point. If the game was more active I might be willing to let him live a day and prove himself (give him more chances to slip), but unless we want to just start policy lynching lurkers and hope that we hit one blind, I don't see alternatives.
Can you expand on this?
I really didn't think that iRebel was scum, compared to his WWII game, but now Shockwave worries me.
I feel kinda good about Arian. I believe this is the first time in 3 games that I haven't had an apathetic read of him, but I don't really see scum giving the whole "nice guy" speech.
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@Cantrip:
Please elaborate.
My vote was RVS whereas Rodemy's wasn't?
What bugged me wasn't Rodemy putting Hans at L-2: it was him stating his vote was serious without delving into details, only to suddenly back off after realizing he had put Hans at L-2.
@Tanarin:
I wasn't defending Rodemy: I was attacking someone who was joining the wagon with what I've perceived as scummy intent.
And regarding the RVS wagon, yes, I agree that info can be gleaned from it. But trying to analyze the RVS votes as if they were serious is a waste of time.
@DKL:
I've already explained why I've disliked your Rodemy vote.
Also, this post hinges on AMSiRa (Aftermath Silver Rage (tm)).
/barn.
@fulcrum:
Bold: wait... what? When have I "arbitrarily decided" he was scum? Haven't you read my case?
The lack of reasons on his reads wasn't what made me believe he was scum: it only complemented it. iRebel's scumslip was the actual fabricated reads themselves, as there's no way he could have liked Tan's post if he truly disliked Rez's (and my barn).
Also, I've attempted to rip him apart. But as you can see, he replaced out before addressing my last post.
No it doesn't. It says different things about their playstyles, not mindsets. Aggressiveness can come from either alignment, as can level-headedness.
There's simply no way someone true to their stated opinion would have hated Rez's post and my barn while liking Tan's without not even explaining why, and iRebel failed to explain it when pointed to it.
You don't make any sense.
Uhh what? Last time I checked, you had me as town.
The truth now. You are iRebel's scumbuddy, aren't you?
FoS fulcrum
I'm so guilty of blasting Town!you on this myself. Good times
Regretfully, I must request replacement.
It was indeed the latter (just the question.) It was a question that needed to be asked.
@shockwave: I would really appreciate seeing your reads on the game before I decide if I am going to move my vote or not. The fact that you felt the need to basically backtrack on everything your predecessor said as opposed to posting your reads right away is off. One would think that there would be no need for doing such action if you were town.
@Arianhod: I don't know if I agree that shock HAS to be the lynch today, but he is the leading candidate for one as of now. I think once he posts his full reads on the game and we get some reactions, we can then make that decision.
@Kosa: Hmm... Nice catch on that flip of opinion from fulcrum. I need to re-read her last couple of posts again though before I say more (I am confused as to how to interpret the posts.)
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1) Why did you feel the need to white knight iRebel?
2) Why not let his replacement float for himself?
3) Why the sudden position change on Kosa?
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I've read your case, and it was bad, in part because he could have easily liked Tan's post while disliking Rez. You're trying to create a false dichtonomy here.
That's not what I'm asking. I want to know why you didn't ask him to elaborate on his reads before trying to shove a lynch down his throat. He may have had valid reasons, but now we'll never know.
He explained it right here:
Look at the posts again. It's not just a difference between aggression and level-headed behavior. Rez was using his question as a reason to lynch dkings, while Tan was actively trying to figure dkings' mindset out and not limiting his focus to dkings.
1. I'm not adding to a wagon when I don't agree with the reasoning of most of the people on it. 2.The RVS thing gave you a slight town read in my eyes. That's going to change.
If you're going to call me an idiot, at least have the courtesy to be upfront about it.
Then why exactly did you say this?
Hey Proph.
You know I want reasons.
Three reasons:
1. He can't do it himself.
2. I don't like Kosa's and Arianrhod's arguments.
3. I screwed up recently in a game on another site, when there was a bull**** case against someone I had as leaning town. I decided to let him defend himself a bit before I ripped into the person attacking him. In the three hours I was gone, a wagon was run up on him and accidentally hammered. He flipped town, and if we hadn't lynched him, we most likely would have won that game. I'm not going to let that happen here. If we lynch Shockwave, it damn well better be for good reasons.
I'm not going to let bad reasoning slide by just because a replacement doesn't want to address it.
What position change? The RVS thing is something in his favor, just as the bad case is something against him. If you're asking why I didn't bring this up earlier, the answer is that I wasn't reading the thread closely during finals.
I can tell that this the type of game that's going to be extremely painful to reread, a la Amistarian 3 or Day 1 of Hobbit. I'm not sure what to call it, but I usually like reading through games, and this has the.. hard to describe tinge that makes reading it a chore. I think it's stemming from the multiple quotewalls and long, drawn out responses, but ugh.
Now that's out of the way, I think I'm going to unvote - I was skimming this thread prior to replacing in and I didn't have great pre-replacement reads, so my first thought when I replaced in was "replace in, naked vote a gut-scum read, get immediate reactions and go to town" a la [REDACTED] (I replaced in without having read the thread and got good town reads based on doing this - fulcrum can attest).
However, with the slow way things are going so far, I realized that I was hardly going to get any meaningful reactions from it (especially when most people can ignore the vote) so I'm instead opting to go for the grind and provide readslist, plus thoughts on things.
And yeah, I read the thread, and ehh. Part of the reason why I stated that it's so hard to read the thread is that a byproduct of that is that I found it difficult to extract clear reads from players - usually I get into a groove thing where I'm considered obvtown and just endlessly poke people with sticks for Day 1. (Apocalypse, Majora's Mask) I'm feel like I'm going to have a difficult time getting into my obvtown groove for this game, based on how slow this game is going + the big proof of verbosity arguments people are breaking out. (This is a public plea to to /stop/ with the big posts, guys. You're turning this game into D1 of Hobbit and that was extremely painful to follow)
Okay, so.
Prophylaxis
Arianrhod
Kosakosa
dkingsland967
Cythare
fulcrum
Hansanator
Rezombied
Rodemy
ganderin_dan
Tanarin
Shockwave07
I'm town.
Arian and Kosa both read extremely genuinely in regards to their attack on the iRebel slot. I'd be pretty surprised if one of them flipped scum, but right now, they're a pretty clear town bloc, and that's nice to have.
dkings is a little behind but I liked his attempts at analyzing the early RVS wagon (feels like something I would do, as town), and I liked #87, where he questioned why people had a town read on him.
Rest of everybody is pretty null. Cythare's been nonexistant (I remember his and fulcrum's minimalistic RVS votes rubbing me the wrong way, though), fulcrum has really large posts that I can't make heads or tails of, hans is.. another nonexistant guy, rezombied is lurking, and Rodemy was a discussion point but that's about it.
Tanarin and gan_dan are gut scum reads.
I'm not a huge fan of Tan's #13 - the whole post feels a bit "taking the joke too far" and his second response feels wholly forced.
gan_dan had a tone-change problem - his quotes, "+s", and @s reminded me of Survival Horror scum!gan_dan, and his tone felt more.. aggressive? Snarky? I mean I felt he was pretty mellow in Dr. P, and feeling out a tone change like this reminded me on scum!Cantrip in Apocalypse, who had a massive tone change as scum.
I'm perfectly fine adding another vote to the Shockwave wagon. I disliked iRebel's responses and fully barn the case against him, but I noticed two more things - iRebel replacing out felt like a scum!replacement due to pressure (almost glad I didn't replace that slot - got nath'd by Shockwave by 7 minutes, IIRC) and Shockwave's #105 where he rages on iRebel felt like - oh, what the heck, since fulcrum loves that mentor chat (I do so too), let me requote it:
Shockwave's #105 is a textbook example of the bolded and I'm perfectly fine with whinging him.
To clarify for the mod -
Unvote, vote Shockwave07
I laughed really hard at this, for ~secretreasons~
You've got to given me more than that. What parts of the case against him do you like, and why?
Huh, I'd actually forgetten about that. Guess that means it's time to read the mentor chat again.
May derps to end all derps occur in all of your games.
Uh.
No.
Unless fulcrum secretly broke in and read one of my draft articles for a hypothetical mafia blog I'm starting, I'm considering iRebel and fulcrum an unaligned pair. Scum don't usually buddy up with other scum, and I don't think that fulcrum would be so blatant ("I'm going to white knight iRebel!") in buddying up to iRebel.
In fact, tack that on as another reason I want to lynch Shockwave - he flips scum, I clear fulcrum. That'll be exciting, with a scum dead and three solid town reads.
@fulcrum
I liked the "formulatic response" + the hate/barn thing that Kosa pointed out.
I can't give you the reasons /why/ I like them - I simply read Kosa's and Arian's responses against iRebel's posts and I was swayed, plus the host of other new reasons that I mentioned.
Also, the fact that Shockwave's first few posts are "I hate my replacement!" as well as ":facepalm: defending" make me want to fry him. I don't see any scumhunting in those responses; no attempts to Figure Things Out.
See Voxx when he replaced in Hobbit; he said "I think I'm going to be lynched" then made efforts to solve the game when he replaced in. Shockwave's replace in is almost the antithesis of that.
Also, something that felt ~weird when I was reading:
Why "vote Kosa^2"? Why not "vote Kosakosa"?
The manner in which you placed the vote feels slightly off.
With the benefit of hindsight I can confidently say I lied here.
I'm getting my townie high/groove right now and should continue remain under the influence until the end of Day 1.
@fulcrum
Thoughts on Tan, especially that RVS vote?
I'm not seeing what you're seeing here, Proph. This looks like normal rvs.
I'll go through the rest in the morning.
Unvote
I'm glad my question did get some discussion going.
So doing work, doing a complete reread here's a list:
Town
rezombied
tanarin
hansanator
kosakosa
arianrhod
proph
rodemy
cythare
fulcrum
dkingsland
ganderin_dan
shockwave
Scum
Basically just a spectrum.
Vote Shockwave07
I didn't like iRebel, and if I were more active I would have been able to question him. And Shockwave hasn't done anything to make me think he was town.
I like Tanarin the most, as I was reading through, a lot of the questions that I was going to ask got asked by him (121 for example)
Most of these are just kind of gut reads that I arranged as I read through. I didn't keep notes or anything.
@Hans: How was iRebel different in this game from WWII?
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@Proph: /barn fulcrum... I also don't see what you see in Tanarin. He's one of my biggest town reads. What do you make of those RVS posts when considering Hans's comments about the IRC game that had just taken place?
Also, for you: You have a gun and you have to shoot one of Rodemy, Cythare or Rezombied. Who do you shoot, and why?
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About Shockwave:
I took a look at a couple of Shockwave's other games. I can't go into much detail because all but Futurama are GIPs, but I did think he was obvscum once and was wrong.
When he replaced into Futurama, his first 5-10 posts were... weird... but the behavior doesn't match his behavior here.
@Shockwave: Have you ever replaced into a game when your predecessor was under pressure? If so, can you link it?
This is something that's already been pointed out, but iRebel's #69 reads scummily to me.
I'm curious as to why fulcrum felt the *need* to defend him. The pressure applied wasn't something that was unreasonable for a replacement to deal with, and white-knighting this early on reads like scum trying to defuse a potential issue for a scumbuddy.
@fulcrum - What do you mean by "I agree with both the out of game and in game notes"? You agree with him posting them or you agree with his stance? Do you disagree that the post was formulaic or do you just not see the scum motivation behind it?
After you white-knight him, you immediately double back and call Shockwave07 scummy, and even include it in the same post.
Relatedly, #110 also reads self-conscious to me. Leading with "You think you would actually see if the person who replaces in for a person who didn't put up much of a fight would defend themselves before posting this" seems unnecessary. While I agree that fulcrum should have waited, I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish (if anything) by stating it outright.
I'd vote for Shockwave, but if the votes on iRebel didn't reset, I think he's already at L-2.
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Right now I'm feeling a scum team of: Shockwave07, dkingsland, fulcrum
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I only have one completed game here as town, and one completed game as scum that I have ever replaced into. Futurama being the former and my predecessor did nothing of note in that game besides one post with content. If someone was to ask me about it I'd say I disagreed with him on it. But he had only fringe attention if any from players in that game.
The other game I replaced in was a scum game that my predecessor had pulled a well executed bus. No pressure at all.
@Cythare: I am always self-concious. But my point with the note was why defend someone when the person who made the original arguement is out of the game and you don't know what the new person will do yet?
You do agree that Fulcrum's behavior is out of place do you not? Arguing away what in her mind are bad points only to see new bad ones pop up on me, and not vote based on two players voting me for bad reasoning? I tend to see antics like this from town players and more often than not they are going down the wrong road.
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Rodemy (1): dkingsland967
dkingsland967 (1): Cythare
Kosakosa (2): Ganderin_Dan; Shockwave07
Hansanator (1): Rodemy
Shockwave07 (5): Kosakosa; Arianrhod; Tanarin; Prophylaxis; Rezombied
Not Voting (2): Hansanator; fulcrum
With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch!
Rezombied's vote should be on Shockwave07 (unless something else is going on).
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1) Agreed on the white-knighting being out of place (as noted previously).
2) Can you rephrase the second part? Are you saying that you think fulcrum is town? What about his actions/approach make it a town-specific thing to do?
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Fixed.
On top of that as long as they feel something is off they will actively argue all further point if they feel it isn't right.
Fulcrum may not be an extreme example of this, but I often see this coming from town players over scum in my still growing mafia game expirience.
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The "not that I mind or anything" feels out of place - it feels forced. I'm not sure how to convey it via words but it reads to me like that and it drew it out of me on a gut level.
The RVS posts just feel /wrong/, if you catch my drift.
Can you at least try to explain your gut reads, as I did with gan_dan and Tanarin a couple posts up? I've seen this "readslist no explanation" from you in Apocalypse before (where you were scum) and I hope you're not doing something similar.
For the RVS comments by Tan, see above. I'm on an iPad right now so I hope that's a decent explanation - if you think I didn't go in too deep enough tell if I should expand or expound on it more.
I cannot answer your gun question at this time without poking my null reads with sticks. They're all ~nullish to me and I will need to dive into them further.
(Though purely on a "selfish" level: rezombied because he's the weakest of the trio, and I don't want another derp!hammer like what he did in Futurama, if we're in a lylo situation)
What do you think about my post about fulcrum and Shockwave being an unaligned pair, due to fulcrum white-knighting iRebel?
I don't think they're scumbuddies together - I feel like fulcrum would probably go for the early bus as soon as pressure mounted on iRebel, rather than defending him in a very visible manner.
I understand where you're coming from, but I don't necessarily agree with it. While I get that most scumbuddies would go the bus route, something about the timing and perceived need to white-knight iRebel doesn't sit right with me.
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Who, in particular would you like me to explain my read of? I explained why I liked tanarin and disliked shockwave.
Like I said, I didn't take notes. But I will be happy to expound upon a particular read if asked.
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How about your alignment and win con shockwave?
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Nnothing screams town role to me... but nothing screams scumrole to me either...
-_____-
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Surely though you can see letting him try and work his own way out of his lynch is better in the early game. While trying to save a person you truly believe is town is good later on. Way more info can be gathered not only from his reactions, but the reactions to his reactions.
Same as above, wouldn't letting his replacement at least try and defend himself be better in this case given it is so early in the game?
OK, fair enough. You can see though why it feels so sudden though? You went from one post saying you liked what he said, to your next in game post saying you did not like him.
As for my post 84 vs my post 114: Yes, it does seem like I contradicted myself a bit, but again, I agreed with the IDEA behind his post, not the fact that he is scummy for said lack of question (And thus voting him.)
@Proph: OK so let me get your case on me. You are basically saying I am leaning scum in your mind because of an RVS post I made and how I wrote down a vote. I really don't know what you are trying to get at, nor is there anything to defend/address IMO. Just seems like a really weak case on me.
As far as the rest of your reads, why leaning scum on GD exactly? I know you mention tone change, but how? Are you saying he is too mellow and he used Dr P to experiment? You trying to say his tone is closer to that of Survival Horror? Please clarify this for me.
Also
Unvote Vote Rodemy
I think I found scum.
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unvote
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Want to share with the rest of the class?
Look at that Rodemy said, and WHEN he said it. Then look at the post you just quoted. There is no reason for Rodemy to have such indecision when you put the pieces together.
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