@Antny:
I probably should have asked this prior, but what is your experience with Mafia games? (Completed games is all I need or if you are new)
Since B_E is new to Mafia I know that I can use him to my advantage based on what he flips. If B_E is Town, then he is speaking in truths and I will go back and look at this posts more. If B_E is Scum, then there is a chance that his posts will hold valuable information about the Scum team.
Since I don't know your status (for the lack of a better word that I cannot think of) with Mafia games I cannot make the same assumption.
DCIII's post 199 puts a lot of points forward that I was thinking with my post and makes a good argument. We have discussed the tallying of posts before but I more inclined to lean towards the idea that he is tallying like DCIII says and this is why we've seen the insubstantial posts where he says he has no reads. We may be close to finding out whether it is scum move or a newbie move if B_E is the next lynch.
Now I read it agiain it is interesting that DCIII uses Kraj's question when Kraj is still leaning M_E though. Also Kraj did ask a few posts earlier why you weren't voting B_E but he is staying on M_E. That said Kraj may just fishing for reads himself. I'm guess I'm going have to figure that out later.
As for the following votes, there is a quick succession and I'm still gonna be suspicious of Rhand but the rest seem genuine. Burning_Earth made himself look suspicious with the speed at which he went from being as neutral as possible to trying to lynch M_E, so I think everyone is jumping on the wagon for that reason. That said Burning_Earth hasn't claimed and isn't offering many reasons to keep himself in the game. I won't be entirely sure what I need to hear from him to take my vote away from him until I hear it but I just feel he's the most suspicious target right now.
Town
Void
DCIII
Both seem like they genuinely want to help the town. Unlike the rest of the wagon on me, DCIII made a legit case (not saying I did on ME, and yes I see the hypocrisy)
I'll take a guess and say because your list and reasons for those on them feel half-*censored*.
That's only one third of the game. Sure I know its natural for lists to either leave their maker out or list self as obvitown, but you still have 7 people, including me, not even attempted to be listed.
Town
Void
DCIII
Both seem like they genuinely want to help the town. Unlike the rest of the wagon on me, DCIII made a legit case (not saying I did on ME, and yes I see the hypocrisy)
Nny has been V/LA. It's not like is hasn't come enough times over the last few days. Do try to keep up.
Also me, Rhand, Shockwave we're all on the wagon. Do you think we're more likely scum or town. Discuss.
The mod's post says that all town roles are Walkers.
Yep, realize that now. TMCT intentionally asked everyone to give a simple yes or no to not spell that out for others if they didn't catch it either; so why did you spell that out for others?
Because I don't trust The Most Steamflogging Joss.
@DCIII:
You're admitted that you believed to have knowingly Town slipped. With that being said it sounds like you tried to force a Town slip rather than letting it come naturally.
Vote: DCIII
Please explain yourself a little bit here.
Do explain how this makes DCIII more likely to be scum.
anyway i want the other half of the game to post before i consider taking things properly seriously
Hi there scum-mirrorentity.
hi there town tmct
i didn't even remember that game so thanks for pointing it out!
kinda amusing since i'm town this time but oh well read into it how you will
it's basically my default stance irrespective of alignment to want everyone to post so good luck there
Torn between voting MirrorEntity and Burning_Earth at this juncture.
didn't really think to when rushposting in the middle of some factorial analysis coursework
but his posting has been garbage imo, so I like a vote burning_earth
This post feels like a rush to cover tracks.
Issues with DK stated, I also suspect Mirror Entity.
better believe it bro, legit swamped with stats work this morning.
You'll have to forgive me for not believing that you forgot to do something that's considered a focal mechanic of the game we're currently playing "because homework".
I dislike being non-committed.
Especially when you're calling someone else out for not voting.
I stated where I wanted to place my vote; I'm not sure how that's non-committed. The reason I didn't place my vote at that point was because I was waiting for mirrorentity's response to my question. I did not find it compelling.
@Everyone
If you understand why DCIII townslipped, please indicate so in your next post. A simple "yes" or "no."
Ah. Yes.
I'm not so sure about your explanation. You could have easily faked not reading the OP to get that across... Hmm... The only thing nagging at me is that I don't see two Scum buddies trying themselves to each other this early in the game.
Unvote
I'm going to need to see more before I make a decision on the two of you.
The "Hmm..." interjection in this post seems contrived. I don't think you're town.
Because it's an explanation that didn't need to be made in the first place. What ME said in #57 didn't necessarily warrant a vote (i.e. it wasn't scummy that he didn't vote B_E in #57), but he felt the need to make an explanation for why he didn't when Nny called him out on it. He felt pressure and folded. As for the the specifics of the explanation? Whatever, it's OOG -- that's not what I have a problem with.
@Everyone
If you understand why DCIII townslipped, please indicate so in your next post. A simple "yes" or "no."
Ah. Yes.
I'm not so sure about your explanation. You could have easily faked not reading the OP to get that across... Hmm... The only thing nagging at me is that I don't see two Scum buddies trying themselves to each other this early in the game.
Unvote
I'm going to need to see more before I make a decision on the two of you.
The question was if we understood why it was a townslip. The "Yes" was because I had figured it out.
@DCIII:
You're telling me that you cannot fit my view into what you did?
"If you understand why DCIII townslipped, please indicate so in your next post. A simple 'yes' or 'no'."
The question itself, while directed at everyone, is a loaded question for you.
Any answer you give will be suspect because no one knows whether you are telling the truth.
So, for you to answer "yes" shows that either you were aware of yourself making the Townslip or that TMCT noticed a Townslip and attempted to show it to everyone to help out a buddy. At a further possibility is that TMCT is Town and noticed a Townslip and pointed it out for the rest of the Town to see to help clear someone for toDay. While it is Town motivated it is not thought out very well and, if this is the case, TMCT should have kept this information to himself for the time being. It would have been a good way to try and catch opportunistic Scum if it were a Townslip.
What is your point? Why aren't you asking questions that would help you identify scum? You voted DCIII for a non-reason and now you're posting simply for the sake of posting.
Shockwave, is that a serious vote or are you RVSing?
Steamflogger Joss is the new Cyan.
What's the deal with these post explosions? Are you reading segments and posting along as you do to break it up? Or are you re-reading and finding new things?
@Kraj, TMCT - Basically all I was saying was I'm giving the mafia the benefit of doubt of spotting that all players are Walker in the pregame posts and therefore the first nine will all say Walker (mostly on the back of TMCT first post asking everyone to declare town which is fairly pointless) leaving the last three to show up being the ones 'not Walker'. It wasn't a serious post. I guess in hindsight it could have worked but I'm not convinced that the odd a walker over Walker (BE wasn't the only one to do this btw) indicates scum at this time.
oh and before I go? you're reading too much into the town statements since all they do is accurately reflect what I thought to be the case at the time.
Why do you feel the need to qualify them as "town" statements?
Considering they were three horrible votes I think your fine.
Yeah I think that case is pretty horrible. I didn't randomly vote! I must be scum
Well lets get active. Vote for Rhand, I want more pressure on him. He's waiting for someone else to get wagoned or someone to defend him since I've seen him on here twice and he can't bother to respond.
I'm also interested in a response from Rhand but I think we should wait. Being online and not posting isn't a sign that he's avoiding the issue. There's more than just mafia here.
The reason I immediately voted instead of only asking for clarification is because voting is our only tool during the Day and it should be used.
I am not liking how you are avoiding that.
vote: Antny
Then why aren't you haranguing BE for not voting, as well?
It depends what you define as tool, since a question seems like a reasonable tool to use to me. I don't see how it's productive to try to force people to vote when their not ready. Surely that's more likely to just lead to the wrong player being lynched.[QUOTE]
Why do you see that as a problem?
[QUOTE=Antny223]The reason I didn't straight up vote for you before was because suspicions didn't mean I thought you were Mafioso. It does now strike me as odd that there are multiple people without votes in this thread in this thread and you have gone after another new player - the second time you've done this, this game.
vote Rhand
I don't like the timing on this.
Get an avatar.
How do I do line breaks on this site?
I'll post this now and see if I can't finish the rest momentarily.
I'm also interested in a response from Rhand but I think we should wait. Being online and not posting isn't a sign that he's avoiding the issue. There's more than just mafia here.
Why are you stepping up to bat for Rhand?
I can't be bothered to deal with the whole wall of text thing (at least not till your finished) but this made me laugh.
I dunno in my first game I participated in town screwed up because they lapped up a bad argument about a townie being self conscious and the game started to trainwreck
that's all I've got from experience
If I peg a scum early and push him, I end up in a slapfest that mostly gets ignored by everyone else and eventually leads to my own mislynch.
This answers the question I did a strikethrough on. Disregard.
Given that you now believe BE is town, how would your read of me had changed based on whether I had voted mirrorentity or BE when you opted to challenge my lack of a vote?
Void, I'm not completely sure I understand your question.
I mentioned before that Proph mentored me in a game recently (TMNT), and he and I talked about RVS and his philosophy that avoiding RVS and/or not voting is usually a scumtell. That is where I picked up the concept. As illustrated in this game, not everyone agrees about this being a thing.
Also, I did not know that B_E is new to Mafia. I did not see his post in the sign-up thread and it was brought to my attention by someone else.
Let me know if I misunderstood.
You answered sufficiently.
However, I have issues with your post. You mention that Prophylaxis introduced the idea of avoiding RVS voting as a Scum tell you and that is fine. One issue is that you are taking your newly learned information and throwing it aside because others just happen to disagree with you. The other issue is that B_E is new. Since B_E is new he is more likely to commit to Scum tells that don't others normally wouldn't because he doesn't know the game. This looks like you trying to bus a Scum member and then realizing that you would be caught because others don't share the same opinion as yours.
Also my post count is not that low. As of now it is above Antny, Shockwave, Kraj, Void and nny.
Why does how much you've post matter? Most of the posts so far have been short and, not to sound cruel, insignificant. Just having more actual posts than players that have provided real content doesn't show anything.
Also what your response to my post 155?
This is not fully true. Newb Scum are less likely to post due to confidence issues or other things.
Another thing about having a low post count is that it interferes with how that player interacts with another. A Scum tell, for me, is using an Interaction Chart to find out which Scum communicated with other players the least since Scum members are less likely to talk to themselves than to the Town.
In other words: It shows a lot more than what you are thinking. Even if the posts may be insignificant.
This reeks of a counterwagon; votes are shifting over way too quickly. I haven't liked Burning_Earth's posting but it's statistically improbable that both him and ME are scum. Hm...
Finally just because I don't need his input doesn't mean I'm not interested in what he's saying. There's still time post either today or day 2. Stop putting words in my mouth!
If there was a hammer, there would likely not be the time for me to post.
I'm also interested in a response from Rhand but I think we should wait. Being online and not posting isn't a sign that he's avoiding the issue. There's more than just mafia here.
Why are you stepping up to bat for Rhand?
I can't be bothered to deal with the whole wall of text thing (at least not till your finished) but this made me laugh.
He spent most if his early time tying people together instead of hunting scum.
Can't do a pbpa on the phone. But I am sure of this read.
BE is still scum too though, so I am going to keep my vote there.
i will get the Void pbpa done before night falls.
You seem to have a strong opinion of Void's meta - can you direct me to other examples that you feel are similar to this? I just played with him in WWII and he wasn't apologetic as scum, he was dismissive and aloof.
@Nny - I made the comment about TMCT because I initially thought that he made the name claim play from his role PM as opposed to the thread - so I thought he was town for seeing that and having it trigger that idea.
It turned out that wasn't the case. That being said - I do believe he was looking for reactions and scumslips. Since all town have the role name of Walker, no town would have said anything other than that while there was a chance that scum would slip up. When you said that you clarified that all town roles were named Walker because you didn't trust TMCT, what were you worried would happen if that point wasn't clarified?
From your commentary, I see where you have concerns with Void, ME, and Antny - but your comments toward TMCT are mostly agreeing with him. Why is he on your list of players you're willing to lynch?
Also, your last post before your return said that you were torn between voting ME and BE. Has your read on BE changed and why?
I'm willing to lynch mirrorentity, Void, TMCT, or Antny. Rhand is looking better after his recent posts.
I agree in regards to Rhand.
unvote.
I'm interested in your thought process regarding TMCT.
I have to sit down and reread (more of a read as it has been skimming) the last few pages. I'm undecided on BE and TMCT.
Rhand can you back up this meta read on Void? I've been falsely accused with meta in the past so I don't blindly follow along when someone throws it out there.
I don't know about his meta, but I can see scum!Void, and especially if B_E flips scum. Void had an early vote on DCIII that was just terrible (considering DCIII is obvtown). Kraj made a great point toward him a few pages ago... Void noted that B_E was committing newbscum tells, but voted me and not him because it looked like I was jumping off a bus attempt... ? And then he piled onto the B_E wagon in a prime scum position (3rd) with little reasoning beyond a /barn of DCIII's case... who he earlier tried to push as scum for "knowingly" committing a townslip.
Also, it certainly makes sense that scum!B_E would list one of his buddies in his scum reads for towncred down the line if momentun shifts away from him.
If B_E flips town, mirror is very likely scum (counterwagons ahoy!), and that will give us more time to look at Void in-depth.
But after that pinky promise post, I'm ready to lynch B_E. It almost seems like he essentially gave up and claimed scum.
This reeks of a counterwagon; votes are shifting over way too quickly. I haven't liked Burning_Earth's posting but it's statistically improbable that both him and ME are scum. Hm...
Do you think a double-bus is possible here? Mirror's post where he voted B_E had virtually no content or reasoning behind it, and B_E's vote of mirror was just a /barn of Kraj and had a bit of an OMGUS smell.
I do agree that the wagon picked up momentum extremely fast, but seriously, there is good casing against B_E and he has done no scumhunting at all. I am perfectly willing to lynch him in the face of the possibility of a counterwagon. If he flips scum, awesome! ToMorrow, we get to work on figuring out who was bussing. If he flips town, we still eliminated a player we thought was scummy, mirror is pretty much confirmed scum, and we can examine the votes and try to figure out who were the opportunistic scum on the B_E wagon.
Thoughts?
Sure, a double-bus is possible, but pre-flip buddy analysis is generally the most pointless thing in the world and has a poor track record. That being said both of them have done scummy things independent of each other (mirror moreso), so I'd be fine with a B_E lynch. As you said, we get information even from a town B_E flip.
That being said, we get information from a town ME flip, too, and in my eyes he's more likely to flip scum. I want to lynch ME.
If your going to be so focused on me you should at least read my posts. I said clearly I was just going to vote BE as soon as Nny ceased being V/LA so it shouldn't be a surprise to you. Did any those posts say I was waiting because I wanted Nny to state a case against BE? No, they didn't, but I guess any chance to throw a loaded question that me is too good to miss, right
A "loaded question"? That's a load of mud you're flinging at Rhand. Even if you did exactly what you stated, exactly what you stated makes no sense. The point of waiting for Nny is to let him actually catch up, not pop in and say "hi, I'll provide content soon."
@Antny:
No need for apologies on your side. As I said, I haven't been reading your posts in full. It should be me apologizing to you.
I am going to reread Void. This is typical scum!Void.
The politeness, you mean? I've given up on meta-reading Void since I'm abyssmal at it. I seem to remember that tell backfiring on me, too, but I can't remember what game it was.
I will place my vote on mirrorentity if he is the chosen lynch for the Day, as he is one of my scum reads.
Don't like this attitude at all. You're just acquiescing to the will of the town with little independent thought apart from the reasoning that already gave you a scum read on ME. I'm going to come back to this after ME flips.
My gut is telling me town-Rhand. I also have scum-Rhand from Astarte in my head and he's softer around the edges.
[Citation needed]
Wow is that passive-aggressive. If you want my meta reasoning for Rhand being town, then either ask me instead of painting it as scummy, or explain why it's scummy.
Self-conscious tally of all of the players who have posted less than he has, all the while stringing out multiple short posts to up his post count. Attempt to appear active without actually adding content.
I wouldn't call in self-conscious. He was called out about a low post count. But pointing out others is another thing.
1. I reread and thought it was the best case
2. You made good points. DC-
And this explanation still offers no independent thought, which brings me back to this, previously quoted:
Explaining it away as OMGUS? Well explain away the other votes on you. DC-
BE was uncomfortable making a case, offered no real new content to the case on ME when he barned Kraj, and then simply leaned on the fact that his vote rested with multiple others when his vote was questioned.
To respond to Kraj's question - I think what changed was that more people hopped on the ME wagon so BE felt more comfortable doing so.
Well, if ME explained away my vote as OMGUS, he should absolutely explain the other votes on him. I'm sorry, but I can't see what is wrong with asking him to do so.
ME, defend yourself.
Why should he have to explain the votes that are on him? He saw your vote as opportunistic and called you out on it. What your doing is trying your damnedest to put the attention back on ME.
Now defending himself is entirely different. If he ignores the votes and doesn't explain his play then...
1: Me making short double-posts. I'm sorry about those, but I forgot to say things. Should I have not said them instead?
2: I wagoned on to ME after Kraj also did. I'm sorry, but I have explained this. If you want a full PBPA analysis on ME to explain why I think his/her posts are bad, fine. I will do so if you ask
3 I said "Explaining it away as OMGUS? Well explain away the other votes on you." and it was interpreted as that I was just 'resting on the fact that other people had voted ME'. Well what I was saying was that ME was trying to explain away the case on him/her by crying "HEY! HIS VOTE IS INVALID AND OMGUS!"
1- In talking about your vote on ME and barning Kraj you also said you werre going to vote ME already because of his lack of content. Well this #1 excuse goes against how you voted. If this is the case you would have also double posted your other reason. But seeing how you were already going to vote you should have included that reason since you already knew it. I call BS.
2- You should have included those in your vote.
3- Wrong. He wasn't trying to explain away other votes, just yours.
1- In talking about your vote on ME and barning Kraj you also said you werre going to vote ME already because of his lack of content. Well this #1 excuse goes against how you voted. If this is the case you would have also double posted your other reason. But seeing how you were already going to vote you should have included that reason since you already knew it. I call BS.
2- You should have included those in your vote.
3- Wrong. He wasn't trying to explain away other votes, just yours.
2-Fine, I'll do one today. Expect it later.
3- Explaining away any legit votes is bad.
My meta read on Void is indeed based on him being apologetic. Chimes is a good example of Void doing that.
It's not just meta though: I reread him and his intentions seem off.
I'm gonna case him later toDay; I need to put my energy in another game first.
If you’re not happy with post 89 at this point tough. I’m tired of explaining an RVS post and it’s not a productive route to follow.
Quote from Antny223 »
The reason I didn't straight up vote for you before was because suspicions didn't mean I thought you were Mafioso. It does now strike me as odd that there are multiple people without votes in this thread in this thread and you have gone after another new player - the second time you've done this, this game.
vote Rhand
I don't like the timing on this.
Again what’s not to like about the timing. Should I have held back me vote?
This post makes me feel like Antny is hoping for me to respond in a manner that would confirm me as a Cop-type role or not. I don't like that.
No, it was an example of why it is bad to go into night one while a player is V/LA. It’s neither targeted at you nor makes actual assertions about your role or alignment so why would need to respond or claim at all?
Finally just because I don't need his input doesn't mean I'm not interested in what he's saying. There's still time post either today or day 2. Stop putting words in my mouth!
If there was a hammer, there would likely not be the time for me to post.
I feel that this is now explained and a reason why I’m saying conclusions would be better at this point that mere gut reads.
He spent most if his early time tying people together instead of hunting scum.
Can't do a pbpa on the phone. But I am sure of this read.
BE is still scum too though, so I am going to keep my vote there.
i will get the Void pbpa done before night falls.
No need. My posts should illustrate it for you.
I also find this section odd. One minute you asking Rhand to expound on his thinking, the next second you’re telling him there’s no need for a pbpa.
I'm willing to lynch mirrorentity, Void, TMCT, or Antny. Rhand is looking better after his recent posts.
I find really interesting that you’re up for multiple lynching targets but not Burning_Earth right now. What makes you think B_E shouldn’t be lynched?
In fact between this post and BE labelling you scum with a really bad reason and I’m giving serious thought to you two being scum together. You certainly present evidence in this catch up that backs a Burning_Earth lynch.
I’m gonna need to keep an eye on Nny, right now my interest is peaked but I want to see BE flip scum before I go any further.
A "loaded question"? That's a load of mud you're flinging at Rhand. Even if you did exactly what you stated, exactly what you stated makes no sense. The point of waiting for Nny is to let him actually catch up, not pop in and say "hi, I'll provide content soon."
As I said before my reason for waiting wasn't because I needed Nny to provide evidence that BE was scum, I had come to that conclusion myself but I think it's clearly bad play to finish a day while a player is V/LA.
As for the loaded question remark, Rhand knows I'm a new player, he could have (and should have) asked my explanation without making assumptions that it was for a particular reason. While I'm reading Rhand as scum, and he is openly wanting my lynch, I feel I should defend myself against anything I view as misleading whether it was intentional or not. In hindsight it wasn't as loaded as it seemed at the time, but I won't apologise for defending myself.
@BE - I'm gonna go over your post but it would be quicker/easier if you could highlight the main posts that are important. Commenting on every last thing ME said isn't productive.
Also, the pinkie swear defence is my new favourite defence. Next time I'm close to lynching I will try it. Right now I'm taking your claim as town vanilla as we would have heard by now if you had interest claim. My vote is still on you.
Questions: What is your current opinion on your wagon?
What is your current opinion on Nny?
EBWODP: @Nny do have you have any better conclusions than this and your post most reads of just initial reactions and most questions look as though they have been answered later in the thread.
@TMCT:
No. I would like to here your thought process on this please.
@DCIII:
You're admitted that you believed to have knowingly Town slipped. With that being said it sounds like you tried to force a Town slip rather than letting it come naturally.
Vote: DCIII
Please explain yourself a little bit here.
The "no" is directed towards TMCT, answering that he does not see the townslip from DCIII.
In the very same post he accuses DCIII of deliberately townslipping, while he didn't see a townslip. Weird.
In his next post, he ties TMCT and DCIII together:
@Everyone
If you understand why DCIII townslipped, please indicate so in your next post. A simple "yes" or "no."
Ah. Yes.
I'm not so sure about your explanation. You could have easily faked not reading the OP to get that across... Hmm... The only thing nagging at me is that I don't see two Scum buddies trying themselves to each other this early in the game.
Unvote
I'm going to need to see more before I make a decision on the two of you.
@DCIII:
You're telling me that you cannot fit my view into what you did?
"If you understand why DCIII townslipped, please indicate so in your next post. A simple 'yes' or 'no'."
The question itself, while directed at everyone, is a loaded question for you.
Any answer you give will be suspect because no one knows whether you are telling the truth.
So, for you to answer "yes" shows that either you were aware of yourself making the Townslip or that TMCT noticed a Townslip and attempted to show it to everyone to help out a buddy. At a further possibility is that TMCT is Town and noticed a Townslip and pointed it out for the rest of the Town to see to help clear someone for toDay. While it is Town motivated it is not thought out very well and, if this is the case, TMCT should have kept this information to himself for the time being. It would have been a good way to try and catch opportunistic Scum if it were a Townslip.
Void admits that there is a possibility that does not tie TMCT and DCIII together, but puts it as 'a further possibility'.
I don't like that: there being at least 1 town among the two is the most normal situation.
@Dkings:
Would mind explaining your train of thought with your philosophy regarding avoiding RVS votes and why you chose to listen to another(s) on the matter? I'm not quite following you here.
Void, I'm not completely sure I understand your question.
I mentioned before that Proph mentored me in a game recently (TMNT), and he and I talked about RVS and his philosophy that avoiding RVS and/or not voting is usually a scumtell. That is where I picked up the concept. As illustrated in this game, not everyone agrees about this being a thing.
Also, I did not know that B_E is new to Mafia. I did not see his post in the sign-up thread and it was brought to my attention by someone else.
Let me know if I misunderstood.
You answered sufficiently.
However, I have issues with your post. You mention that Prophylaxis introduced the idea of avoiding RVS voting as a Scum tell you and that is fine. One issue is that you are taking your newly learned information and throwing it aside because others just happen to disagree with you. The other issue is that B_E is new. Since B_E is new he is more likely to commit to Scum tells that don't others normally wouldn't because he doesn't know the game. This looks like you trying to bus a Scum member and then realizing that you would be caught because others don't share the same opinion as yours.
Vote: dkingsland967
Again, Void is looking to tie 2 people together instead of looking for a single scum.
He isn't attacking someone for being scum, he is attacking him for bussing someone who we don't know is scum!
Next post is 'helpful' without helping us progress:
Also my post count is not that low. As of now it is above Antny, Shockwave, Kraj, Void and nny.
Why does how much you've post matter? Most of the posts so far have been short and, not to sound cruel, insignificant. Just having more actual posts than players that have provided real content doesn't show anything.
Also what your response to my post 155?
This is not fully true. Newb Scum are less likely to post due to confidence issues or other things.
Another thing about having a low post count is that it interferes with how that player interacts with another. A Scum tell, for me, is using an Interaction Chart to find out which Scum communicated with other players the least since Scum members are less likely to talk to themselves than to the Town.
In other words: It shows a lot more than what you are thinking. Even if the posts may be insignificant.
There's some subtle B_E defense in this as well, but that's null for now until we have a flip.
The next interaction with TMCT won't help us either:
@Kraj:
I did not have a comfortable enough read on B_E to vote him. That has changed though.
It's hard to ignore a case like the one DCIII put forward...
unvote Vote: Burning_Earth
I will try to get more out later today.
He seems to be implying that he was ignoring the cases on B_E but couldn't now that DCIII made a good one.
Of note: Void is following one of his scumreads here.
When you said that you clarified that all town roles were named Walker because you didn't trust TMCT, what were you worried would happen if that point wasn't clarified?
Because it struck me as a really good way for scum to entrap a member of the town who wanted to gambit.
Quote from DCIII »
From your commentary, I see where you have concerns with Void, ME, and Antny - but your comments toward TMCT are mostly agreeing with him. Why is he on your list of players you're willing to lynch?
Gut feeling. His opening posts rubbed me the wrong way, I think.
Quote from DCIII »
Also, your last post before your return said that you were torn between voting ME and BE. Has your read on BE changed and why?
There are almost never 2 concurrent wagons on scum at a time, so I opted to shoot for the one that seemed more likely to be scum to me.
I will place my vote on mirrorentity if he is the chosen lynch for the Day, as he is one of my scum reads.
Don't like this attitude at all. You're just acquiescing to the will of the town with little independent thought apart from the reasoning that already gave you a scum read on ME. I'm going to come back to this after ME flips.
Given that I've seen good wagons stall out before, I wanted to make it clear that I would be willing to vote for mirrorentity if he were the chosen lynch for the Day. I'm making people aware of my reads and allowing myself to be held accountable for it. Please walk me through how stating that I'm willing to lynch one of my scum reads if there's enough support for it over one of my other scum reads is in any way, shape, or form a lack of independent thought. It looks to me like you're simply regurgitating B_E's diction.
My gut is telling me town-Rhand. I also have scum-Rhand from Astarte in my head and he's softer around the edges.
[Citation needed]
Wow is that passive-aggressive. If you want my meta reasoning for Rhand being town, then either ask me instead of painting it as scummy, or explain why it's scummy.
This is a huge overreaction to me asking you to provide examples of Rhand's town meta vs. his scum meta. I wasn't suggesting it was scummy; do explain how you arrived at that conclusion and why you felt the need to be so defensive about it.
If you’re not happy with post 89 at this point tough. I’m tired of explaining an RVS post and it’s not a productive route to follow.
Why? Because it's a point against you?
Quote from Antny223 »
Quote from Antny223 »
The reason I didn't straight up vote for you before was because suspicions didn't mean I thought you were Mafioso. It does now strike me as odd that there are multiple people without votes in this thread in this thread and you have gone after another new player - the second time you've done this, this game.
vote Rhand
I don't like the timing on this.
Again what’s not to like about the timing. Should I have held back me vote?
No, you should have snap-voted because that's the natural town thing to do. As it is, this looks like you felt pressured to make a call on Rhand and tried to emulate a town reaction by applying pressure...except instead of succeeding, you only tripped over yourself.
This post makes me feel like Antny is hoping for me to respond in a manner that would confirm me as a Cop-type role or not. I don't like that.
No, it was an example of why it is bad to go into night one while a player is V/LA. It’s neither targeted at you nor makes actual assertions about your role or alignment so why would need to respond or claim at all?
It's entirely possible that you felt I was exuding tells of some sort of information role and as a result, wanted to fish for that from me.
Finally just because I don't need his input doesn't mean I'm not interested in what he's saying. There's still time post either today or day 2. Stop putting words in my mouth!
If there was a hammer, there would likely not be the time for me to post.
I feel that this is now explained and a reason why I’m saying conclusions would be better at this point that mere gut reads.
He spent most if his early time tying people together instead of hunting scum.
Can't do a pbpa on the phone. But I am sure of this read.
BE is still scum too though, so I am going to keep my vote there.
i will get the Void pbpa done before night falls.
No need. My posts should illustrate it for you.
I also find this section odd. One minute you asking Rhand to expound on his thinking, the next second you’re telling him there’s no need for a pbpa.
No, I was stating there was no need for a PBPA. They're clunky, excessive, and detract from the conciseness of a case. What I did want was for Rhand to illustrate the main points he saw against Void and I have no problem with him using my own points against Void as a crutch in doing so.
Quote from Antny223 »
I'm willing to lynch mirrorentity, Void, TMCT, or Antny. Rhand is looking better after his recent posts.
I find really interesting that you’re up for multiple lynching targets but not Burning_Earth right now. What makes you think B_E shouldn’t be lynched?
In fact between this post and BE labelling you scum with a really bad reason and I’m giving serious thought to you two being scum together. You certainly present evidence in this catch up that backs a Burning_Earth lynch.
You find it "interesting", do you? Interesting.
As for my rationale for not wanting him dead presently, see above where I explained this.
As for B_E calling me scum for a bad reason, I can't help the fact that he's a bad player - but that has nothing to do with my alignment.
EBWODP: @Nny do have you have any better conclusions than this and your post most reads of just initial reactions and most questions look as though they have been answered later in the thread.
I'm certain you're not one to talk about the quality of my posts.
The case against Burning Earth is similar to the one on Mirror Entity in one reguard, both have had a lot of low substance posts making it hard to determine allegiance.
Thankfully the pbpa provides something into his thought process. It is apparent that he is focusing on one target quite clearly. But for now, Unvote: Burning Earth.
Rhand's case on Void is convincing to me - and I think it's the strongest case yet.
Unvote: Burning_Earth, Vote: Void
I also think that Nny has a fair point that the BE and ME wagons make it unlikely that they're both scum. And, given their apparent experience levels and their styles of play, I think it's unlikely that they're both just pointing the finger at each other as scum buddies.
BE's most recent case on ME has me second guessing my read because he does seem convinced and hasn't backed down from the pressure about his vote. Also, reading through again, BE has been defiant and confrontational at times where ME has been more apologetic and agreeable. Having the opinion I have on Void now also makes me wary of his barn vote on BE.
So as for BE and ME - My opinion is shifting back toward ME, but I think the Void case is strongest and his flip will give us some information to work with on the situation, too.
@ME Had time to get through BE's pbpa and the thing that strikes me most is how much you've disappeared over the last week. After your brief reads last Monday you have posted only two small nearly entirely insubstantial posts. The rest of the posts aren't really offering much to the game right now. While BE is still high on my scum list, he's at least starting to fight for his place. I get the feeling you've sat back hoping a counter wagon would get you out of trouble.
Unvote Burning_Earth
I'm gonna shift my vount to ME but I think ME's votecount is five and I'm not about to put a player at L-1 while a player is V/LA again (see I'm learning ).
DCIII and Kraj, what are your thoughts on this post if B_E is town?
Assuming that Void is scum or generally?
No, I mean in a gamestate where B_E has flipped town and Void is unconfirmed. To me, that post I linked strongly tied Void and B_E as potential scumbuddies should one or the other flip scum.
DCIII and Kraj, what are your thoughts on this post if B_E is town?
Assuming that Void is scum or generally?
No, I mean in a gamestate where B_E has flipped town and Void is unconfirmed. To me, that post I linked strongly tied Void and B_E as potential scumbuddies should one or the other flip scum.
I think that Void is likely to be scum regardless of BE's alignment. I think the case on him is stronger so he should be today's lynch - but if BE were to flip town, that wouldn't change my Void read.
At this point I do think it more likely that ME is scum than BE and I would also be surprised if neither were and if both were.
I'm getting cold feet on ME, but I don't know if this is Megiddo-style "losing confidence as the Day goes on" cold feet or legit cold feet because ME is town. Definitely need to study the Void case. And also:
I hate Antny's last post. Talk about bailing ship.
/barn
This adds to my suspicions that B_E was a counterwagon on town, but that will come out in the vote analysis wash once we start getting some flips. I don't think Antny is a good lynch Today at any rate.
This is a huge overreaction to me asking you to provide examples of Rhand's town meta vs. his scum meta. I wasn't suggesting it was scummy; do explain how you arrived at that conclusion and why you felt the need to be so defensive about it.
You had/have a scum read on me and called me out on not providing my meta reasoning on Rhand in a snarky way -- which isn't bad in itself, but clearly implies that you were more interested in me not providing reasoning than the reasoning itself.
But let's say you were more interested in my reasoning, hypothetically. Why would you ask one of your scum reads for reasoning on why a player that's "looking better after his recent posts" (in your own words) is town? What benefit does that provide you on Day 1, if not trying to pin down the scum read?
Given that I've seen good wagons stall out before, I wanted to make it clear that I would be willing to vote for mirrorentity if he were the chosen lynch for the Day. I'm making people aware of my reads and allowing myself to be held accountable for it. Please walk me through how stating that I'm willing to lynch one of my scum reads if there's enough support for it over one of my other scum reads is in any way, shape, or form a lack of independent thought. It looks to me like you're simply regurgitating B_E's diction.
Interesting. I thought that post tied Void to ME, because of the timing.
Unvote, Vote: Void
Hm. I'll have to go back and re-read the sequence of posts before that one. The way it reads to me is that Void is voting me on a weak bussing argument, meanwhile setting himself up to bus B_E on D2 if he needs to through acknowledgment of the newbscum tells.
I do not like the way mirror has mostly disappeared over the past 5-6 days while B_E got run up, only to pop in on this page and take a snipe at his sig. I'm coming around to viewing mirror and B_E as a dichotomy rather than a potential double-bus. And if they are an unaligned pair, the timing of the two wagons pretty strongly suggests mirror is scum.
The case on Void is good and I'm willing to lynch him if we decide that is the best course of action for the day, but I think we should resolve mirror/B_E first. Either flip will probably give us more information going into D2 than Void's would. As such, I am placing my vote on mirror for now. Vote mirrorentity
@TMCT - Is there something specifically about ME's play that's causing you to second guess your read?
@DK - Why do you think that a ME/BE flip would give more information than a Void flip? What information do you think you would gain from a ME lynch right now?
I think that Void is the best lynch for two main reasons. The most important is that the case is the best and I think he's the most likely of any of the current wagons to flip scum.
Secondly, if he does flip scum, then I feel pretty good about a town read on both Rhand and Nny. If Void is scum, then that would be a very unnecessary bus from Rhand or Nny considering there were two very viable wagons on BE and ME. Both BE and ME have had play that could justify votes. If either are scum and Rhand or Nny wanted to bus, I think their votes would be there. Or, even if both aren't scum, it would have been easy for Rhand or Nny to place a vote on either for a mislynch. The only thing that would make any sense is if both ME and BE are scum and Rhand or Nny were looking for a new wagon which I think is very, very unlikely for reasons already stated about the unlikelihood of ME and BE pointing the finger at each other in the way that they are as scum buddies, given their play styles and experience levels.
So, if Void flips scum (which I think he will) then I feel good about both Rhand and Nny as town, which is helpful.
I probably should have asked this prior, but what is your experience with Mafia games? (Completed games is all I need or if you are new)
Since B_E is new to Mafia I know that I can use him to my advantage based on what he flips. If B_E is Town, then he is speaking in truths and I will go back and look at this posts more. If B_E is Scum, then there is a chance that his posts will hold valuable information about the Scum team.
Since I don't know your status (for the lack of a better word that I cannot think of) with Mafia games I cannot make the same assumption.
Apologies, I didn't realise you missed this earlier.
No need for apologies on your side. As I said, I haven't been reading your posts in full. It should be me apologizing to you.
What do you think of the case that DCIII made and the following votes on B_E afterwards?
Now I read it agiain it is interesting that DCIII uses Kraj's question when Kraj is still leaning M_E though. Also Kraj did ask a few posts earlier why you weren't voting B_E but he is staying on M_E. That said Kraj may just fishing for reads himself. I'm guess I'm going have to figure that out later.
As for the following votes, there is a quick succession and I'm still gonna be suspicious of Rhand but the rest seem genuine. Burning_Earth made himself look suspicious with the speed at which he went from being as neutral as possible to trying to lynch M_E, so I think everyone is jumping on the wagon for that reason. That said Burning_Earth hasn't claimed and isn't offering many reasons to keep himself in the game. I won't be entirely sure what I need to hear from him to take my vote away from him until I hear it but I just feel he's the most suspicious target right now.
Scum
Nny (look ma, no content!)
ME
Town
Void
DCIII
Both seem like they genuinely want to help the town. Unlike the rest of the wagon on me, DCIII made a legit case (not saying I did on ME, and yes I see the hypocrisy)
I am going to reread Void. This is typical scum!Void.
That's only one third of the game. Sure I know its natural for lists to either leave their maker out or list self as obvitown, but you still have 7 people, including me, not even attempted to be listed.
Do you seriously have nothing on them?
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sigpic.
Spider-Man Mafia 3 (Off-Site: NGA)
Metroid Mafia (Off-Site: Mafia Universe)
Nny has been V/LA. It's not like is hasn't come enough times over the last few days. Do try to keep up.
Also me, Rhand, Shockwave we're all on the wagon. Do you think we're more likely scum or town. Discuss.
He spent most if his early time tying people together instead of hunting scum.
Can't do a pbpa on the phone. But I am sure of this read.
BE is still scum too though, so I am going to keep my vote there.
i will get the Void pbpa done before night falls.
Oh yeah, this wasn't what I meant. We all claimed Walker, I joked about it, no one found it funny. Is there any more to this claim?
Might as well park my vote on Void then.
vote: Void
Because I don't trust The Most Steamflogging Joss.
You'll have to forgive me for not believing you.
Why?
I don't think so.
Vote mirrorentity
Tell me what you've learned.
Do explain how this makes DCIII more likely to be scum.
I do agree with this.
I don't care for the handwave here.
No.
Agreed.
You'll have to forgive me for not believing that you forgot to do something that's considered a focal mechanic of the game we're currently playing "because homework".
I stated where I wanted to place my vote; I'm not sure how that's non-committed. The reason I didn't place my vote at that point was because I was waiting for mirrorentity's response to my question. I did not find it compelling.
The "Hmm..." interjection in this post seems contrived. I don't think you're town.
I agree with this.
Yet you went on to defend your slip to me.
What is your point? Why aren't you asking questions that would help you identify scum? You voted DCIII for a non-reason and now you're posting simply for the sake of posting.
Unvote, Vote Void
It's an easy thing to fake. His response to my skepticism did not seem genuine, either.
What's the deal with these post explosions? Are you reading segments and posting along as you do to break it up? Or are you re-reading and finding new things?
This reasoning is weak.
Why do you feel the need to qualify them as "town" statements?
I'm glad I'm not the only one who takes issue with that post.
Involved in the game or involved in the Rhand wagon? If the former, why are you not generating cases to vote on?
Why are you stepping up to bat for Rhand?
Then why aren't you haranguing BE for not voting, as well?
I don't like the timing on this.
Get an avatar.
How do I do line breaks on this site?
I'll post this now and see if I can't finish the rest momentarily.
I can't be bothered to deal with the whole wall of text thing (at least not till your finished) but this made me laugh.
What does this mean?See below.This answers my earlier question, then. Disregard.
What game was this?
This answers the question I did a strikethrough on. Disregard.
Given that you now believe BE is town, how would your read of me had changed based on whether I had voted mirrorentity or BE when you opted to challenge my lack of a vote?
I will place my vote on mirrorentity if he is the chosen lynch for the Day, as he is one of my scum reads.
I don't think I have any problems with this post.
Oops, I just read my post. All I can say is...
I've gone past logical defences. So... er... I'm town! Pinky promise!
I don't understand your logic.
Do you believe I'm scum as a result?
[Citation needed]
I agree.
I agree, but this post seems contrived.
How about no.
I don't recall saying that.
This post makes me feel like Antny is hoping for me to respond in a manner that would confirm me as a Cop-type role or not. I don't like that.
If there was a hammer, there would likely not be the time for me to post.
You think I'm scum due to an inability to post?
What of my first post did you believe held no content?
I'd like you to expound on this because I support a Void lynch on this Day if we aren't lynching mirrorentity.
No need. My posts should illustrate it for you.
I'm caught up.
I'm willing to lynch mirrorentity, Void, TMCT, or Antny. Rhand is looking better after his recent posts.
Now do give me some responses.
You seem to have a strong opinion of Void's meta - can you direct me to other examples that you feel are similar to this? I just played with him in WWII and he wasn't apologetic as scum, he was dismissive and aloof.
These two reactions are very similar and BE called out ME for first doing it.
I still like a BE lynch.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
@Nny - I made the comment about TMCT because I initially thought that he made the name claim play from his role PM as opposed to the thread - so I thought he was town for seeing that and having it trigger that idea.
It turned out that wasn't the case. That being said - I do believe he was looking for reactions and scumslips. Since all town have the role name of Walker, no town would have said anything other than that while there was a chance that scum would slip up. When you said that you clarified that all town roles were named Walker because you didn't trust TMCT, what were you worried would happen if that point wasn't clarified?
From your commentary, I see where you have concerns with Void, ME, and Antny - but your comments toward TMCT are mostly agreeing with him. Why is he on your list of players you're willing to lynch?
Also, your last post before your return said that you were torn between voting ME and BE. Has your read on BE changed and why?
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
I agree in regards to Rhand.
unvote.
I'm interested in your thought process regarding TMCT.
I have to sit down and reread (more of a read as it has been skimming) the last few pages. I'm undecided on BE and TMCT.
Rhand can you back up this meta read on Void? I've been falsely accused with meta in the past so I don't blindly follow along when someone throws it out there.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
Also, it certainly makes sense that scum!B_E would list one of his buddies in his scum reads for towncred down the line if momentun shifts away from him.
If B_E flips town, mirror is very likely scum (counterwagons ahoy!), and that will give us more time to look at Void in-depth.
But after that pinky promise post, I'm ready to lynch B_E. It almost seems like he essentially gave up and claimed scum.
Sure, a double-bus is possible, but pre-flip buddy analysis is generally the most pointless thing in the world and has a poor track record. That being said both of them have done scummy things independent of each other (mirror moreso), so I'd be fine with a B_E lynch. As you said, we get information even from a town B_E flip.
That being said, we get information from a town ME flip, too, and in my eyes he's more likely to flip scum. I want to lynch ME.
A "loaded question"? That's a load of mud you're flinging at Rhand. Even if you did exactly what you stated, exactly what you stated makes no sense. The point of waiting for Nny is to let him actually catch up, not pop in and say "hi, I'll provide content soon."
The politeness, you mean? I've given up on meta-reading Void since I'm abyssmal at it. I seem to remember that tell backfiring on me, too, but I can't remember what game it was.
Don't like this attitude at all. You're just acquiescing to the will of the town with little independent thought apart from the reasoning that already gave you a scum read on ME. I'm going to come back to this after ME flips.
Wow is that passive-aggressive. If you want my meta reasoning for Rhand being town, then either ask me instead of painting it as scummy, or explain why it's scummy.
I wouldn't call in self-conscious. He was called out about a low post count. But pointing out others is another thing.
I agree with this. He wanted to blend in.
Why should he have to explain the votes that are on him? He saw your vote as opportunistic and called you out on it. What your doing is trying your damnedest to put the attention back on ME.
Now defending himself is entirely different. If he ignores the votes and doesn't explain his play then...
I don't even understand where your coming from with this. Of course he doesn't want to be lynched. Tell me what is so bad.
1- In talking about your vote on ME and barning Kraj you also said you werre going to vote ME already because of his lack of content. Well this #1 excuse goes against how you voted. If this is the case you would have also double posted your other reason. But seeing how you were already going to vote you should have included that reason since you already knew it. I call BS.
2- You should have included those in your vote.
3- Wrong. He wasn't trying to explain away other votes, just yours.
This sums up BEs recent play. Total flailing.
I'm not ready to end the day so will hold my vote. Still want to look back on TMCT.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
2-Fine, I'll do one today. Expect it later.
3- Explaining away any legit votes is bad.
PBPA on ME
Post 4: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=11054568&postcount=4: Says he’s town in response to a request from TCMT/Steamflogger Joss.
Post 7: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=11054599&postcount=7 : Says he lives in Wales. Whatever. Says indirectly that he/she is town
Post 9: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=11054634&postcount=9 : Says indirectly that he/she is town
Post 11: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=11054877&postcount=11 : Says indirectly that he/she is town. WE GET IT! YOU ARE TOWN!
Post 19: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=11055061&postcount=19 : Jokes about TMCT’s not logging in as SJ. Whatever.
Post 20: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=11055069&postcount=20 : Continuation of post 19
Post 25: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=11055142&postcount=25 : Explains etc etc from post 20.
Post 29: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=11055208&postcount=29 : Explains post 25. Says he knows who AE’s townread is, but not who he ‘knows’ it is
Post 33: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=11055234&postcount=33 : Asks justifiably for context after a weird post from AE
Post 35: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=11055273&postcount=35 : Stalls. Says nothing should be taken seriously until more people post. I really don’t understand this post from a townie mindset
Post 38: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=11055300&postcount=38 : I don’t know what he/she is trying to say. This obviously proves that I don’t understand the game of mafia. Oh well, I’ll learn…
Post 44: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=11055423&postcount=44 : Says that he/she thinks that the people talking up to this point were all town. His/her post count up to this point is staggering. While I admit that I am guilty of posting a lot without content, I haven’t done it to anywhere near this level
Post 47: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=11055543&postcount=47 : Because content is for other people.
Post 53: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=11055543&postcount=53 : He/she seemed to say that not RVSing was scummy when he/she at no point RVS voted. While this seems like OMGUS I know, the hypocrisy is amazing, and ME should have been called out for this
Post 54: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=11056574&postcount=54 : Says she/he doesn’t know why DCIII townslipped, meaning that she/he’s previous post was based entirely on my not RVS voting, someth9ing she didn’t do.
Post 57: Says that my not RVSing showed ‘a distinct desire not to contribute’. Well maybe I could say the same of you
Post 64: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=11057612&postcount=64 : This seems like a whole lot of OMGUS, and maybe it is, but the case against me then was based on
A: Not RVSing, well she/he didn’t
B: Claiming ‘a’ walker, which she did as well
And he/she didn’t unvote this hypocritical and terrible case on me so that she could use it on a convenient wagon (the one on me now)
Post 66: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=11057668&postcount=66 : Still no real content.
Post 71: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=11058077&postcount=71 : Responds (badly) to someone who called him/her out on post 35. Also, just in case we didn’t get it, says she/he’s town
Post 77: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=11058166&postcount=77: Defends (badly again IMO) post 64
Post 86: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=11058560&postcount=86: Saying that she/he does need to work on better wording. Well work on better posting
Post 99: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=11061609&postcount=99 : “No, sorry, I can’t respond to anything”
Post 100: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=11061622&postcount=100 : Responds to something
Post 111: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=11063781&postcount=111 : Clarifies post 44
Post 115: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=11064224&postcount=115 : Doesn’t answer a question about his/her read on TMCT
Post 143: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=11070271&postcount=143 : Tries dismally to defend him/herself
Post 144: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=11070283&postcount=144 : Accidently posts before she finished writing
145: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=11070288&postcount=145 : Says something entirely irrelevant
Post 150: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=11073805&postcount=150: Claims (again). Seems really resigned to his/her fate
Post 157: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=11074785&postcount=157 : Reealises that he/she’s actually at L-3, not L-2
Post 178: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=11077563&postcount=178 : Some reads? Amazing!
Post 179: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=11077571&postcount=179 : Says he/she messed up the formatting of post 178
Post 257: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=11108442&postcount=257 : Don’t know what she’s talking about here, but that proves I suck at this game.
In conclusion, we should vote for him. Or at least you should after I flip town
It's not just meta though: I reread him and his intentions seem off.
I'm gonna case him later toDay; I need to put my energy in another game first.
If you’re not happy with post 89 at this point tough. I’m tired of explaining an RVS post and it’s not a productive route to follow.
Again what’s not to like about the timing. Should I have held back me vote?
No!
No, it was an example of why it is bad to go into night one while a player is V/LA. It’s neither targeted at you nor makes actual assertions about your role or alignment so why would need to respond or claim at all?
I feel that this is now explained and a reason why I’m saying conclusions would be better at this point that mere gut reads.
I also find this section odd. One minute you asking Rhand to expound on his thinking, the next second you’re telling him there’s no need for a pbpa.
I find really interesting that you’re up for multiple lynching targets but not Burning_Earth right now. What makes you think B_E shouldn’t be lynched?
In fact between this post and BE labelling you scum with a really bad reason and I’m giving serious thought to you two being scum together. You certainly present evidence in this catch up that backs a Burning_Earth lynch.
I’m gonna need to keep an eye on Nny, right now my interest is peaked but I want to see BE flip scum before I go any further.
As I said before my reason for waiting wasn't because I needed Nny to provide evidence that BE was scum, I had come to that conclusion myself but I think it's clearly bad play to finish a day while a player is V/LA.
As for the loaded question remark, Rhand knows I'm a new player, he could have (and should have) asked my explanation without making assumptions that it was for a particular reason. While I'm reading Rhand as scum, and he is openly wanting my lynch, I feel I should defend myself against anything I view as misleading whether it was intentional or not. In hindsight it wasn't as loaded as it seemed at the time, but I won't apologise for defending myself.
@BE - I'm gonna go over your post but it would be quicker/easier if you could highlight the main posts that are important. Commenting on every last thing ME said isn't productive.
Also, the pinkie swear defence is my new favourite defence. Next time I'm close to lynching I will try it. Right now I'm taking your claim as town vanilla as we would have heard by now if you had interest claim. My vote is still on you.
Questions: What is your current opinion on your wagon?
What is your current opinion on Nny?
The "no" is directed towards TMCT, answering that he does not see the townslip from DCIII.
In the very same post he accuses DCIII of deliberately townslipping, while he didn't see a townslip. Weird.
In his next post, he ties TMCT and DCIII together:
Void expands on this:
Void admits that there is a possibility that does not tie TMCT and DCIII together, but puts it as 'a further possibility'.
I don't like that: there being at least 1 town among the two is the most normal situation.
Next post is fluff:
Void's next post is a question to Dkings, followed by a vote on him when he answers.
Again, Void is looking to tie 2 people together instead of looking for a single scum.
He isn't attacking someone for being scum, he is attacking him for bussing someone who we don't know is scum!
Next post is 'helpful' without helping us progress:
There's some subtle B_E defense in this as well, but that's null for now until we have a flip.
The next interaction with TMCT won't help us either:
This post makes me want to see B_E's flip asap:
He seems to be implying that he was ignoring the cases on B_E but couldn't now that DCIII made a good one.
Of note: Void is following one of his scumreads here.
When BE is at L-2, Void posts more fluff:
When Antny catches up, Void tries to tie two players together again:
What weirds me out here is that he's accusing someone of having nothing to say while maintaining such a low postcount with content himself.
His next and last posts are some back and forth with Antny, ending in the tell that made me reread him:
I don't trust meta 100%, and Void has been made aware of this apologetic-tell of his, but it did trigger my alarms and a reread confirmed what I saw.
tl;dr:
Instead of scumhunting, Void is looking to tie people together.
Because it struck me as a really good way for scum to entrap a member of the town who wanted to gambit.
Gut feeling. His opening posts rubbed me the wrong way, I think.
There are almost never 2 concurrent wagons on scum at a time, so I opted to shoot for the one that seemed more likely to be scum to me.
That's cool.
Given that I've seen good wagons stall out before, I wanted to make it clear that I would be willing to vote for mirrorentity if he were the chosen lynch for the Day. I'm making people aware of my reads and allowing myself to be held accountable for it. Please walk me through how stating that I'm willing to lynch one of my scum reads if there's enough support for it over one of my other scum reads is in any way, shape, or form a lack of independent thought. It looks to me like you're simply regurgitating B_E's diction.
This is a huge overreaction to me asking you to provide examples of Rhand's town meta vs. his scum meta. I wasn't suggesting it was scummy; do explain how you arrived at that conclusion and why you felt the need to be so defensive about it.
What do you think of TMCT's most recent response to me?
Why? Because it's a point against you?
No, you should have snap-voted because that's the natural town thing to do. As it is, this looks like you felt pressured to make a call on Rhand and tried to emulate a town reaction by applying pressure...except instead of succeeding, you only tripped over yourself.
It's entirely possible that you felt I was exuding tells of some sort of information role and as a result, wanted to fish for that from me.
I don't understand.
No, I was stating there was no need for a PBPA. They're clunky, excessive, and detract from the conciseness of a case. What I did want was for Rhand to illustrate the main points he saw against Void and I have no problem with him using my own points against Void as a crutch in doing so.
You find it "interesting", do you? Interesting.
As for my rationale for not wanting him dead presently, see above where I explained this.
As for B_E calling me scum for a bad reason, I can't help the fact that he's a bad player - but that has nothing to do with my alignment.
I'm certain you're not one to talk about the quality of my posts.
I would be on board with a Void wagon, though.
Still not feeling the B_E case.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
Thankfully the pbpa provides something into his thought process. It is apparent that he is focusing on one target quite clearly. But for now, Unvote: Burning Earth.
Will get something going in the morning.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sigpic.
Spider-Man Mafia 3 (Off-Site: NGA)
Metroid Mafia (Off-Site: Mafia Universe)
Unvote: Burning_Earth, Vote: Void
I also think that Nny has a fair point that the BE and ME wagons make it unlikely that they're both scum. And, given their apparent experience levels and their styles of play, I think it's unlikely that they're both just pointing the finger at each other as scum buddies.
BE's most recent case on ME has me second guessing my read because he does seem convinced and hasn't backed down from the pressure about his vote. Also, reading through again, BE has been defiant and confrontational at times where ME has been more apologetic and agreeable. Having the opinion I have on Void now also makes me wary of his barn vote on BE.
So as for BE and ME - My opinion is shifting back toward ME, but I think the Void case is strongest and his flip will give us some information to work with on the situation, too.
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
Unvote Burning_Earth
I'm gonna shift my vount to ME but I think ME's votecount is five and I'm not about to put a player at L-1 while a player is V/LA again (see I'm learning ).
@AI - Could we get another vote count please
Assuming that Void is scum or generally?
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
They hate us cause they ain't us.
No, I mean in a gamestate where B_E has flipped town and Void is unconfirmed. To me, that post I linked strongly tied Void and B_E as potential scumbuddies should one or the other flip scum.
Unvote, Vote: Void
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
Void (4): Rhand, Nny, DCIII, Kraj
Burning Earth (2): mirrorentity, Void
mirrorentity (2): The Most Curious Thing, Burning Earth
Not Voting (4): Archmage Eternal, Antny223, dkingsland967, Shockwave07
With 12 alive, it's 7 votes to lynch.
Day One will end no later than 11:59PM EST, Wednesday, November 27th.
I think that Void is likely to be scum regardless of BE's alignment. I think the case on him is stronger so he should be today's lynch - but if BE were to flip town, that wouldn't change my Void read.
At this point I do think it more likely that ME is scum than BE and I would also be surprised if neither were and if both were.
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
/barn
This adds to my suspicions that B_E was a counterwagon on town, but that will come out in the vote analysis wash once we start getting some flips. I don't think Antny is a good lynch Today at any rate.
You had/have a scum read on me and called me out on not providing my meta reasoning on Rhand in a snarky way -- which isn't bad in itself, but clearly implies that you were more interested in me not providing reasoning than the reasoning itself.
But let's say you were more interested in my reasoning, hypothetically. Why would you ask one of your scum reads for reasoning on why a player that's "looking better after his recent posts" (in your own words) is town? What benefit does that provide you on Day 1, if not trying to pin down the scum read?
True. I misrepresented you there.
Hm. I'll have to go back and re-read the sequence of posts before that one. The way it reads to me is that Void is voting me on a weak bussing argument, meanwhile setting himself up to bus B_E on D2 if he needs to through acknowledgment of the newbscum tells.
I do not like the way mirror has mostly disappeared over the past 5-6 days while B_E got run up, only to pop in on this page and take a snipe at his sig. I'm coming around to viewing mirror and B_E as a dichotomy rather than a potential double-bus. And if they are an unaligned pair, the timing of the two wagons pretty strongly suggests mirror is scum.
The case on Void is good and I'm willing to lynch him if we decide that is the best course of action for the day, but I think we should resolve mirror/B_E first. Either flip will probably give us more information going into D2 than Void's would. As such, I am placing my vote on mirror for now. Vote mirrorentity
@DK - Why do you think that a ME/BE flip would give more information than a Void flip? What information do you think you would gain from a ME lynch right now?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think that Void is the best lynch for two main reasons. The most important is that the case is the best and I think he's the most likely of any of the current wagons to flip scum.
Secondly, if he does flip scum, then I feel pretty good about a town read on both Rhand and Nny. If Void is scum, then that would be a very unnecessary bus from Rhand or Nny considering there were two very viable wagons on BE and ME. Both BE and ME have had play that could justify votes. If either are scum and Rhand or Nny wanted to bus, I think their votes would be there. Or, even if both aren't scum, it would have been easy for Rhand or Nny to place a vote on either for a mislynch. The only thing that would make any sense is if both ME and BE are scum and Rhand or Nny were looking for a new wagon which I think is very, very unlikely for reasons already stated about the unlikelihood of ME and BE pointing the finger at each other in the way that they are as scum buddies, given their play styles and experience levels.
So, if Void flips scum (which I think he will) then I feel good about both Rhand and Nny as town, which is helpful.
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player