Your last line was actually my goal during my "oafish stunt" and I think it played out nicely.
It may not have been "cool" per se, but I feel that what I did was actually very productive.
I wanted there to be a lot more focus on Sir Karn and Cythare (along with Duplicity/you) and that's exactly what's happened since then.
You're implicitly taking credit for these things happening when it is not the case. You also were very close to being toDay's lynch before others stuck out their necks and defended you, and you are not the one that got Cythare to post more.
You need to reread these interactions and realize that you are not single-handedly playing this game against the scum and are, in fact, potentially hurting the town severely with your play.
What? It looks like you're saying that you're OMGUSing me but I find it weird that you're admitting it.
What does referencing me and Void on top of your list yesterDay have to do with it?
You completely avoided my point. Why are you suddenly voting me now - right after I marked you as scum and right after your buddy, Kosa, voted me?
I was V/LA when you voted me. Are you really going to commit to the position that Kosakosa and I are scum and I'm following in his footsteps so blatantly?
I'm asking for your reasons for voting Rodemy. You're deflecting my question in a large part. My read of Rodemy is based on what I see as the underlying motivations behind his/her posts.
So you think/thought that a noob player riding a somewhat prevailing opinion that s/he isn't scum to be your best bet for a member of the scum team?
For the record, I think we'd be seeing Rodemy post less as scum and buddy more with townies, not accuse them of doing it and give what reads as stream of consciousness - his/her posts do not seem calculated, which I would assume noob scum would be fearful of.
What I've seen from Rodemy lately:
In 729 he takes the position that either Sir Karn or Kank is scum, but when I asked him why they can't both be, he says that he didn't consider that possibility. Am I to believe that? He ends with an attack on Kank for mentioning scum numbers, which is something I did in my first scum game on this site.
Moreover he ends the post making a decision to the matter: that Kank is scum and Sir Karn is therefore town. While I completely disagree that Sir Karn is town, Rodemy is still playing into the false dichotomy he established.
In 732 he literally mimics Cantrip's criticism of Kank's comment to you: "steeeeetch."
Post 815 is an arguable slip: accusing Duplicity of "painting him town." There's a lot to be said about this, and I want Rodemy to respond. @Rodemy: Why am I scummy for having doubts that you are noob town, but Duplicity/Tammy is scummy for insisting that you are noob town?
In 841 he backpedals his scum read on Kank.
In 866 he takes the most noncommittal position possible, but then come post 868 he has found all three scum, and neither Sir Karn nor Kank is on the list.
Given my scum read on Sir Karn and the fact that he seems to be the only one else suspicious of Rodemy, I think Sir Karn is setting himself to bus Rodemy.
Cythare's interactions with Kosakosa aren't compatible with town-Cythare vs. scum-Kosakosa.
So do you feel that their interactions are
A) Town-Cythare vs. Town-Kosakosa
B) Scum-Cythare vs. Town-Kosakosa
or
C) Scum-Cythare vs. Scum-Kosakosa ?
(Please support your answer with details)
B)
In 818 Cythare takes a defensive stance towards Kosakosa who had just questioned some of Cythare's actions. Cythare was fence-sitting pretty hard with his/her scum read on Kosakosa, stating that Kosakosa is free to move up and/or down depending on how much he posts (wtf?). Cythare isn't questioning Kosakosa's play at all - i.e. no scum hunting. Just like Sir Karn has put me on his scum list for convenience, Cythare is doing the same with Kosakosa. Neither seem to have any real cases against their scum reads.
At this point I'm committing to a Sir Karn/Cythare/Rodemy scum team.
So, your reasoning on RR is "because it's a Basic" and that's it? I'll admit that it's very, very unlikely, but when Cantrip brought up that we should test it 100%, it seemed like a good idea. You're using the fact that I thought this was a good idea to say that I'm scum? Also, how do you feel about anyone else who agrees that this was a good idea to 100% confirm?
Because that looks like a very convenient way for you to back-track on what you said in your post #411, specifically in response to and about RR:
I judge others on a case-by-case basis.
And you've conveniently not judged anyone else who thought this was a legitimate idea.
Your "But those guys were doing it too!" defense isn't going to work here because you had already set out your very specifically stated opinions on RR long before then.
Also, what about me questioning Duplicity was eyebrow-raising? I had been on V/LA for a week, so I was responding to things as I was catching up. Is there anything specific there that you want to know about besides the timing of my questions/comments?
Seeing that Duplicity had already been absent from the game for quite some time and had many questions already stockpiling up from many other players, what made you feel the need to question him at that point?
I don't see how this is even a question. I was catching up, reading and responding as I went. I had questions. I asked them. I could care less about the questions that had piled up, and the fact that this is a point to you is questionable at best.
I merely wanted to know why you did it. Upon your return from your V/LA, were you not aware that Duplicity had gone missing?
Re: Your stuff - I thought I had, but apparently just noted bits and pieces throughout. If you actually want me to collect them, I'd be happy to.
So you're admitting that you did not previously make a case so solid against me that you, and I quote: "Scum: Kankennon - I don't really feel like explaining this again in this post. "?
Against me, your only full scum read?
Do you always fully case someone who's been "pulling an oafish stunt" to dig their own grave? It seemed unnecessary.
Players don't always give detailed reasons why they vote for someone, no.
What you did was implied that you had previously laid out a detailed case against me when you had not.
Why did you not give at least a partial reason why I was your only full scum choice and deserving of not only your vote but the best choice for the day's lynch at that time?
Who said anything about fearing? I was poking fun at him for getting angry at me about answering other people's questions.
That looked like you were using an excuse to not answer questions. What questions would you have answered and how would you have answered them had you not been jokingly poking fun at Kosakosa with mock fear?
Did you just lock onto my post and not read the post from Cantripmancer right above it? There was a question to swishh that had already been answered like 15-20 posts earlier.
Then why didn't you quote the spot where the question had been answered?
Why even say that at all?
Swishh - While I got good vibes from him Day 1, he hasn't done anything of worth Day 2. And unlike the people above, I can't point to anything specifically that makes me think he is town. PoE makes him the third scum.
Kosakosa - Already gone over on multiple occasions.
I still want to know exactly where your turning point was on how you changed your opinion of me.
Even more importantly, I want to hear a fresh analysis from you as to why swishh and Kosakosa are scum.
This "Already gone over on multiple occasions" doesn't fly with me.
Couple quick things though. Kank, yes people have taken a picture of their notes in a mafia game before. Kank hits one of my mafia weaknesses though with his self meta. But damn does he have an anti town playstyle. Hopefully soon he'll realize that reaction gambits and the like or acting scummy for responses is not actually cool or productive. It's really difficult to tell if he's scum or just bad town.
Your last line was actually my goal during my "oafish stunt" and I think it played out nicely.
It may not have been "cool" per se, but I feel that what I did was actually very productive.
I wanted there to be a lot more focus on Sir Karn and Cythare (along with Duplicity/you) and that's exactly what's happened since then.
You got me, Sir Karn. It's a total OMGUS vote. I didn't build a case against you yesterDay, you're not my strongest scum read toDay, and I have no other reasons to vote you. You get an A+ in diversion tactics.
You got me, Sir Karn. It's a total OMGUS vote. I didn't build a case against you yesterDay, you're not my strongest scum read toDay, and I have no other reasons to vote you. You get an A+ in diversion tactics.
Why am I suddenly your strongest scum read after you wanted both Kank and Rodemy lynched earlier? When you came back from V/LA you didn't say one word about me but you switched your vote to me.
You know your Kank and Rodemy votes came after you made that case against me that you're now saying is why you're voting me...
Can you link me to your case on me yesterDay? (and not just the half-paragraph in your T/S list)
You got me, Sir Karn. It's a total OMGUS vote. I didn't build a case against you yesterDay, you're not my strongest scum read toDay, and I have no other reasons to vote you. You get an A+ in diversion tactics.
Why am I suddenly your strongest scum read after you wanted both Kank and Rodemy lynched earlier? When you came back from V/LA you didn't say one word about me but you switched your vote to me.
You know your Kank and Rodemy votes came after you made that case against me that you're now saying is why you're voting me...
Can you link me to your case on me yesterDay? (and not just the half-paragraph in your T/S list)
You and Void were at the top of my scum list yesterDay. When Void flipped town, Kank moved up. When I went on V/LA, Kank was at L-2 and RR was going to hammer him to test his ability. I kept my vote on Rodemy for pressure.
Are you trying to imply that the reasons I listed in my T/S list were inadequate to call you scum?
You got me, Sir Karn. It's a total OMGUS vote. I didn't build a case against you yesterDay, you're not my strongest scum read toDay, and I have no other reasons to vote you. You get an A+ in diversion tactics.
Why am I suddenly your strongest scum read after you wanted both Kank and Rodemy lynched earlier? When you came back from V/LA you didn't say one word about me but you switched your vote to me.
You know your Kank and Rodemy votes came after you made that case against me that you're now saying is why you're voting me...
Can you link me to your case on me yesterDay? (and not just the half-paragraph in your T/S list)
You and Void were at the top of my scum list yesterDay. When Void flipped town, Kank moved up. When I went on V/LA, Kank was at L-2 and RR was going to hammer him to test his ability. I kept my vote on Rodemy for pressure.
So I'm still not seeing what made you switch your vote to me after you came back from V/LA. You suddenly dropped your want to vote Kank and you dropped your actually vote on Rodemy without explaining it at all - in order to vote me without explaining it at all.
What does being at the top of your list yesterDay have to do with the fact that you voted Kank and Rodemy toDay before switching to me - and the alleged reason you switched to me is because of stuff I did yesterDay. You're opportunistically wagon-hopping.
Tammy, I am actually insulted w/ your characterization/narrative of me, and how you just dismissed my opinion, which I have learned from other experienced players on this site. Archae, I'll respond to you a little later when I'm not on my phone.
I'm struggling hard not to just say so? I never insulted you at all. Yes, I dismissed your opinion because I don't agree. Finding town is not scummy. Finding town is not easier. If you can't recognize that I'm having a problem with you spouting mafia theory that doesn't actually make sense within the context of duplicitys play, then I don't know what to tell you. You can disagree with duplicity's town tells, gods know I do, but you're going to have to point out to me the scum motivation of him doing so.
I had a long day and overreacted. I'm still going to disagree with you on this point, but I'll stop riding it into the ground, since none of it is common.
For instance, what is the scum motivation for him coming into the thread and declaring that he saw archae reading another game and concluding that he was doing meta research, when he didn't have a town read on archae to begin with? What is the scum motivation for him to defend rodemy to the death the way he has, so much so that its flared up rodemy's paranoia into thinking that my slot is scum? Do you really think he'd do that as scum? I mean there's scum white knighting and then there's just being plain silly.
If they both (Archae and Duplicity) are scum, there's a pretty easy motivation to try to put one of his buddies into a better position when he sees Archae reading another thread. Hell, since no one else could corroborate his story, Archae didn't even need to have been reading another thread in this scenario. Free town points.
Rodemy, I'm less sure on, although Rodemy being so new makes him more of a wild card. Maybe he was trying to garner favor if he expected to get into endgame with him.
And I don't know what Duplicity would do as scum, or how silly of a game he plays. I wouldn't put it past some other players on this site to try stuff like this as scum, though.
And the thing is he didn't only town hunt, yes he fought for his town reads. He tends to fight for them to the death when he strongly believes it. But he was also scumhunting. His push on void shows that. His push on Kank shows that.
Since I didn't bother to actually reread earlier stuff when I posted my newest T/S list (which I have now come to regret), all I could recall about his Void push was asking anyone who had a town read on him why, saying he disagreed, and then insulting him. But fine, I'll concede that he did more, and that I was incorrect.
His "deciding between Kank and Dup as scum" read to me as though only one of them could be scum. Then he casts some suspicion on Duplicity and votes Kank based on going into "defense mode". He covers himself later by saying "how could I have missed that they both could be scum! gah!"
Isn't this view you're attributing to Rodemy entirely consistent?
You read Rodemy as only seeing one of Kankennon/Duplicity as scum. Rodemy then acts under this assumption (seeing both players as potential scum). Then when Rodemy misses the possibility of both being scum, you take issue. I'm not following the scum motivation or the error in logic here. What am I missing?
I'm a little confused by the syntax of your first question here, but I'm saying the degree of his reaction feels fabricated.
@Cythare: You say "I've been in multiple games (and read several others) where seasoned players called townhunting out as being scummy."
Can you show me some examples?
This post is scummy for two reasons. First it completely oversimplifies duplicity's play. I'm really familiar with his playstyle and I'll be super shocked when I read through the game if I find that he's only townhunted. In fact his last post on this page shows that he's not only townhunting. So, she's reduced his play to one thing and discounted everything else.
Oversimplifies? Please go back and review my previous stuff. It "oversimplified" it because it was meant to be a summary. Also, his last post that "proves" he's done more came when? After I made that statement?
Cythare admits to oversimplifying Duplicity's play and omitting the fact that Duplicity did more than solely townhunt (which is the case that Cythare was trying to push).
Of course I admitted to "oversimplifying", as it was a summary. And if you actually read what that summary was, townhunting *wasn't* the case I was trying to push.
Now, I'm gathering from that post that duplicity is a scum read of hers. So, why does she need prompting to dig through duplicity's posts to prove he's scum? It's more likely that she's fabricating a read and doesn't want to actually do the work because she knows once she attempts to navigate through his posts, she's not going to find anything damning.
Or that I had no interest in going through the effort of casing Duplicity when a stronger scum read of mine was already the active wagon? Why would I try to split the wagon in this scenario?
Tammy makes a great point - Cythare makes a weak excuse. The bolded is really something that town wouldn't be too concerned with if it meant that they were catching scum.
Your point here is in direct conflict to the previous statement. I state here that I'm not making a full case against Duplicity yet, which is why the "only" thing I have against him is the townhunting (which isn't even true, nor the crux of my case, it's just what Tammy locked onto). I noted here that I wasn't making a case against Duplicity. Explain to me how saving a case for the next Day when I believe the current wagon is also scummy is scummy.
So, your reasoning on RR is "because it's a Basic" and that's it? I'll admit that it's very, very unlikely, but when Cantrip brought up that we should test it 100%, it seemed like a good idea. You're using the fact that I thought this was a good idea to say that I'm scum? Also, how do you feel about anyone else who agrees that this was a good idea to 100% confirm?
Because that looks like a very convenient way for you to back-track on what you said in your post #411, specifically in response to and about RR:
I judge others on a case-by-case basis.
And you've conveniently not judged anyone else who thought this was a legitimate idea.
Cythare misses the point and says "well someone else did it too!" when that's not exactly true.
Please explain to me what I missed then. It looks here like Kank is looking to pin me on something that others also agreed with.
Re: Your stuff - I thought I had, but apparently just noted bits and pieces throughout. If you actually want me to collect them, I'd be happy to.
So you're admitting that you did not previously make a case so solid against me that you, and I quote: "Scum: Kankennon - I don't really feel like explaining this again in this post. "?
Against me, your only full scum read?
Do you always fully case someone who's been "pulling an oafish stunt" to dig their own grave? It seemed unnecessary.
Cythare backtracks from: "I don't want to explain it all AGAIN."
TO: "Why should I have to case Kank?"
Trying to handwave, because Cythare was caught in a lie.
I really have no response to this other than "I thought I had cased him, but didn't feel like looking back while already catching up". Also, I figured that Kank's scumminess spoke enough for itself that it wouldn't matter that I was too lazy to rebuild it when the wagon was already barreling downhill.
Your "But those guys were doing it too!" defense isn't going to work here because you had already set out your very specifically stated opinions on RR long before then.
I merely wanted to know why you did it. Upon your return from your V/LA, were you not aware that Duplicity had gone missing?
Not when I started my catch-up. Since I left during Night and Seppel provides links to major events, I started at the beginning of the Day to try and read things in chronological order (responding as I went, as previously noted). When I was reading the post of Duplicity's that I asked questions on, he wasn't missing yet.
Players don't always give detailed reasons why they vote for someone, no.
What you did was implied that you had previously laid out a detailed case against me when you had not.
Why did you not give at least a partial reason why I was your only full scum choice and deserving of not only your vote but the best choice for the day's lynch at that time?
Because I had recalled disliking you actively before, and was tired of your games. My full list of times I noted things against you are:
362: At this point, my skepticism was minor. You had a lot of reads that didn't match up to mine, but I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.
411: I mention here that I don't like a lot of the "missing logic" and "logic leaps" you're performing. I was specifically referring to:
-356 where you left out why TMCT's and Sir Karn's posts where scummy,
-359, which I presume was part of your "oafish stunt" where you say you were a good lynch candidate, only to go back and forth on this point for fun,
-375, for calling TMCT scummy for a) calling someone scummy for having strong desire to policy lynch a newbie, b) using large font when Rodemy didn't get the first several times he stated something, c) undefined "fluff", d) fabricated statistics(?), e) calling out a dichotomy that Kank doesn't agree with, f) misattributing the "fallacy of equivocation" that Archae used against TMCT re: percentages as a "BS argument"
379: The "being curious what wagons people will jump on" looked off but not overtly scummy at the time.
380: This wasn't a problem at the time, but considering that you jumped on me for asking Duplicity questions when he'd already been missing a while, I figured it would be important to call this out.
The different way you approached Kosa's absence in 379 from Cantrip's absence in 380.
661: Noted in 668, but I disliked how you wanted to see a T/S list from everyone before D1 ended rather than actually asking for reads/opinions. You responded multiple times after then but never responded to mine, nor did you follow up on no one else providing you a list.
In fact, you basically ignored all of my responses to your stuff throughout the entire day.
I had no interest in going through things again with a scummy player that wouldn't even give me the time of day.
Then why didn't you quote the spot where the question had been answered?
Why even say that at all?
I didn't quote it because I was posting from my phone, and I've already stated repeatedly why I said it: to nettle Kosa while also giving Cantrip an answer that he didn't need to wait for swishh to come back to get.
You got me, Sir Karn. It's a total OMGUS vote. I didn't build a case against you yesterDay, you're not my strongest scum read toDay, and I have no other reasons to vote you. You get an A+ in diversion tactics.
Why am I suddenly your strongest scum read after you wanted both Kank and Rodemy lynched earlier? When you came back from V/LA you didn't say one word about me but you switched your vote to me.
You know your Kank and Rodemy votes came after you made that case against me that you're now saying is why you're voting me...
Can you link me to your case on me yesterDay? (and not just the half-paragraph in your T/S list)
You and Void were at the top of my scum list yesterDay. When Void flipped town, Kank moved up. When I went on V/LA, Kank was at L-2 and RR was going to hammer him to test his ability. I kept my vote on Rodemy for pressure.
So I'm still not seeing what made you switch your vote to me after you came back from V/LA.
Kank was hardcore towntelling. Neither Rodemy nor Cythare is getting lynched toDay. You're up.
You suddenly dropped your want to vote Kank and you dropped your actually vote on Rodemy without explaining it at all - in order to vote me without explaining it at all.
@ swshh: Your fishing incident is still in my head. It didn't make sense to me and when i called you out on it, your defense of the situation didn't convince me.
Can you truely not believe that i'm just: not good at this?
You don't want to except that someone actually IS new. YOU just want to think it's a scum ploy and I'm really good at this.. did you READ my last game? I was horrible. Here, i am less horrible, but my thoughts are still all over the fuggin place.
Your response to kosas quick reads in i believe 111 was odd to me. If you want a list of things to expect from me: here they are
I will change my opinion on the drop of a dime
I will go off on wild tangents that make logical sense to me and not many other people
I will make mistakes.
But honestly, i am learning here.
I am waiting for the next Day so i can form some sort of opinion. I can't think with this many people typing at once and arguing. i am better when there are fewer people.
We have yet to come to an agreement and it's pissing me off.
I am weary to jump on ANY wagon right now because nobody's argument is convincing enough. I have my own opinions, i am sticking too them. Call me scum if yopu want but that won't change a thing.
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You got me, Sir Karn. It's a total OMGUS vote. I didn't build a case against you yesterDay, you're not my strongest scum read toDay, and I have no other reasons to vote you. You get an A+ in diversion tactics.
Why am I suddenly your strongest scum read after you wanted both Kank and Rodemy lynched earlier? When you came back from V/LA you didn't say one word about me but you switched your vote to me.
You know your Kank and Rodemy votes came after you made that case against me that you're now saying is why you're voting me...
Can you link me to your case on me yesterDay? (and not just the half-paragraph in your T/S list)
You and Void were at the top of my scum list yesterDay. When Void flipped town, Kank moved up. When I went on V/LA, Kank was at L-2 and RR was going to hammer him to test his ability. I kept my vote on Rodemy for pressure.
So I'm still not seeing what made you switch your vote to me after you came back from V/LA.
Kank was hardcore towntelling. Neither Rodemy nor Cythare is getting lynched toDay. You're up.
Something you failed to explain, and now you aren't even explaining the things that you're now saying explained what you said.
You suddenly dropped your want to vote Kank and you dropped your actually vote on Rodemy without explaining it at all - in order to vote me without explaining it at all.
@ swshh: Your fishing incident is still in my head. It didn't make sense to me and when i called you out on it, your defense of the situation didn't convince me.
Can you truely not believe that i'm just: not good at this?
If you admit you're not good at this, what makes you think I'm scummy for doing something you don't understand?
You don't want to except that someone actually IS new. YOU just want to think it's a scum ploy and I'm really good at this.. did you READ my last game? I was horrible. Here, i am less horrible, but my thoughts are still all over the fuggin place.
Actually your posts are a really strange combination of mess with the occasional point that I completely agree with, which make me think - where did that come from? This makes me believe you know things.
I will change my opinion on the drop of a dime
I will go off on wild tangents that make logical sense to me and not many other people
I will make mistakes.
But honestly, i am learning here.
I am waiting for the next Day so i can form some sort of opinion. I can't think with this many people typing at once and arguing. i am better when there are fewer people.
We have yet to come to an agreement and it's pissing me off.
I am weary to jump on ANY wagon right now because nobody's argument is convincing enough. I have my own opinions, i am sticking too them. Call me scum if yopu want but that won't change a thing.
I know you're new. I don't think you're pretending. But new players can be scum. Now answer my question: @Rodemy: Why am I scummy for having doubts that you are noob town, but Duplicity/Tammy is scummy for insisting that you are noob town?
55: Defends Rodemy - genuinely interested in TMCT's opinon (OK)
70: Criticizes Rodemy's play without taking a stance on his alignment
97: Stances! Rodemy+Archae = scum, TMCT = town
122: makes a lot of sense if Sir Karn and Cythare are both scum (gets jealous that Cythare was town read instead of him for similar content)
130: Spends a lot of time breaking things down for Archae whom he apparently believes is scum
144: Void is town...?
216: backpedals town read on Void
278: Void has the most obvious meta (???)
427: Void is the easiest person to read on the site (!?!?!?!?!?)
462: "Solidifies" town read on Void - knows Void is town so he doesn't really need actual evidence
I stopped taking notes on you there since I was pretty much convinced at that point that you're scum. Your list of reads in 880 could not be any more vague. It clearly shows that your primary interest is not scum hunting but instead taking strategic stances with your opinion of players. You haven't once explained your belief that Cythare and Kank is a dichotomy (can't be both town or both scum). You're willing to write Tammy off as town (which I agree with) based on Duplicity's opening post, which shows you're not interested in taking in further information to formulate a proper read. Your flipflopping on Archae indicates opportunism. I don't get the scum read on Kosakosa at all, but be that as it may. And I'm glad to see that you've decided to bus Cythare. Thanks for making this easy.
The way they do it. Like, i know i post some really off **** that will get anyone to go, ummm... what?
But dup accepted almost all of it right away.. and kept to it the entire time.
Tammy moreso that her initial reads missed a lot of things in the beginning: wagons, Kosa... she had reads on EVERYONE BUT KOSA... at least she told us she was waiting on the finish of the read to judge kank...)
And her being the only one who can vouch for Dup on another forum.. (when she was hand picked by him nonetheless)
It's the insistant part that gets me. Calling all this attention to me makes me uncomfortable.
If you go back to my long post where i vote tammy you'll find the post i found odd (that apparently wasn't 111)
Sorry for seeming scummy to you and throwing off your game.
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So most of your case against me is because I know how to metagame Void? I should finally be able to go more in depth on my metagame knowledge of Void in roughly 30 hours (possibly less).
How does my list of reads allegedly show that I'm not interested in scum hunting? (While I'm clearly scumhunting)
I did explain that Kank and Cythare's interactions make them a dichotomy.
Can you bulletpoint your points for me? You made a mess of a paragraph filled with half-points and some things you agree with. I don't even know what I'm suppose to be refuting right now because it doesn't even look like you have a case on me.
Busy weekend, Catching up now. Lets read what else tammy self-metas on duplicity as town.
Holy crap, karn is not lurking anymore and actually typing things. Heres to hoping its not just dismissive handwaves again. Or answering other people's questions.
Holy crap, karn is not lurking anymore and actually typing things. Heres to hoping its not just dismissive handwaves again. Or answering other people's questions.
Where have I done that before (bolded)? I can't think of a time.
So most of your case against me is because I know how to metagame Void? I should finally be able to go more in depth on my metagame knowledge of Void in roughly 30 hours (possibly less).
Can you bulletpoint your points for me? You made a mess of a paragraph filled with half-points and some things you agree with. I don't even know what I'm suppose to be refuting right now because it doesn't even look like you have a case on me.
Why don't you? I see no scum motivation. Although where is he?
I don't see how you can't see SOME suspicion on him. He's painting me town waaaay too hard.
Also, the suspicion on me is legit. I absentmindedly didn't take into account kank and Dup could be scum buddies. Like i posted that and went to bed, and thought about it later that night and went, FUUUUUCK. But hindsight is always 20/20
"Suspicion on me is legit" always sounds like an unwitting confession to me. And even as early as his second game...how is it possible to not even consider that any two given players could be scum (except, of course, when you're scum yourself and know that they aren't both scum)? The overreaction is also suspicious, but that appears to be one of Rodemy's "Rodemy" tells.
Quote from Rodemy »
Cantrip seems super towny to me. Go you
Never a fan of blatant town shout-outs, especially those over the top.
No need to hide it anymore. I got from Cythare exactly what I wanted.
Kank is Marilyn Chambers, Vanilla Town.
I'm still working right now, but if the day hasn't ended by tonight, or is still twilight, I'll explain what I did and why.
And yes Archae, this indeed counted as an oafish stunt.
If the rush to judgment is too quick for my reveal, I recommend this order:
Sir Karn, Cythare, Duplicity
So your first claim was dumb by saying just Town.. like you had something important to hide... but then a few posts later you go full claim? and it's vanilla town? Because you got something from cy?
Look alive people!
I was the only one that seriously doubted TMCT's behavior and look who they picked to kill off!
It's obvious that they see me as the easiest mislynch target toDay.
Duplicity is either playing right into their hands or is actually scum himself.
Doubted it how?
From a reread of the end of last night to today, your defense against Dup is odd for two reasons:
One: You had your vote on TMCT the entire day...yet you blame Dups suspicion on you on the Mafia... to paraphrase you "Either he is scum or or dumb town!"
In fact, you were set on TMCT being scum the entire day. So when the mafia killed TMCT, your first instinct is to think they framed you.
Two: Look alive people? The day had just started and Dups case was... well constructed.
This interaction between Dup and Kank make it REALLY hard for me to see Scum and Scum. That's why i didn't think about it! AHA! I knew it was there somewhere.
This feels like he's trying to fabricate rationale for not "realizing" that they could both be scum.
Quote from Rodemy »
I kind of see Dup Forcing the wagon on kank to start and using the kill for the night as cannonfodder... which to me sounds premeditated
So as much as i want Kank to be scum, i can't see it right now. But dups first post seems very premeditated
So he wants Kank to be scum, but concludes that Kank's not.
Quote from Rodemy »
So i really don't know what to think about those two. I know kank is Suspicious as balls on a lady right now, but Dup isn't really on my town list either... but If they were both scum, these two posts would NOT make sense.. (i.e dups case on kank and kanks response.)
Kank wouldn't call out Dup as scum just to have Kank call him out as scum, what would that gather? kank flips scum, Dup is still suspicious for pointing it out his first post of the day... and if Kank flips town.... Dups first sentences would possibly clear him down the road.....
Us: Hey dup, why did you start a wagon on kank. HE FLIPPED TOWN!
Dup: Oh well you see, my gut... and as i told you, i doubted my reads.
He starts off by saying that he doesn't trust his reads too well... and then says the one read he DOES trust... on Kank...
Hypothetical "if they're both scum, how would this make sense", but then halfway through changes it to Kank flipping town. Continues to suspect Dup.
Quote from Rodemy »
UGH I AM THINKING WAY TOO HARD AND I NEED TO GO TO WORK >:[
Dup and Kank are waaay to suspicious in my book right now.
I wouldn't be surprised if Kank was a Nuet... but Dup... i am not sure anymore.
Back to suspecting both Dup AND Kank...but he's already written Kank off as town from above.
It feels like he's trying very hard to find a reason to say Kank's town, but waffling on that attempt. (Ok, I guess nothing "impossible from town", but still concerning.)
@Rodemy: Per the above, what's a "Nuet"?
I'm amazed and a little dismayed at how quickly the Kank wagon evaporated. I don't think I've ever seen that this close to deadline. In other player's experiences, is that more indicative of a town-wagon or a scum-wagon?
Cythare vs. Tammy...I'm not getting a clear picture at all. A lot of Tammy's attacks feel vicious, but they may just be aggressive. I'm not finding any concerns with Cythare's responses.
Sir Karn's explanation of what he found suspicious of 872 makes sense, although I don't agree with much of his opinions. For example, I tend to fall on the "townhunting is not a town-mindset activity" side of the argument, at least when the townhunting occurs on display for all to see. (Interesting. I just learned something about my gameplay. I'm more ok with players saying "PlayerX is town!" and being held accountable for statements like that later than I am with them saying "here's why PlayerX is town" before it becomes vital.)
I'm still not seeing clear town intent from Kank; I don't know why we're letting him off the hook.
In 729 [Rodemy] takes the position that either Sir Karn or Kank is scum, but when I asked him why they can't both be, he says that he didn't consider that possibility. Am I to believe that?
I am missing the idea that you and Cythare are espousing here regarding Rodemy.
His "deciding between Kank and Dup as scum" read to me as though only one of them could be scum. Then he casts some suspicion on Duplicity and votes Kank based on going into "defense mode". He covers himself later by saying "how could I have missed that they both could be scum! gah!"
Isn't this view you're attributing to Rodemy entirely consistent?
You read Rodemy as only seeing one of Kankennon/Duplicity as scum. Rodemy then acts under this assumption (seeing both players as potential scum). Then when Rodemy misses the possibility of both being scum, you take issue. I'm not following the scum motivation or the error in logic here. What am I missing?
I'm a little confused by the syntax of your first question here, but I'm saying the degree of his reaction feels fabricated.
Which reaction are you talking about here?
(@swishh and Cythare) Sorry if my language was confusing. My question is why Rodemy's not considering a possibility and operating under that assumption is suspect to you (or do you think that Rodemy was not operating under that assumption? If so, why)?
Holy crap, karn is not lurking anymore and actually typing things. Heres to hoping its not just dismissive handwaves again. Or answering other people's questions.
Where have I done that before (bolded)? I can't think of a time.
Its funny because you admit to answering other peoples questions.
My issue is that how could he possibly NOT consider that they could either both be scum or both be town? If he did explain this, I would love to stand corrected, but declaring a dichotomy between two players takes an experienced player, and Rodemy has admitted he is not an experienced player.
And so, my simplest explanation for this is that he's scum and hence knows that exactly one of them is scum and the other is town (Sir Karn being scum and Kank being town).
"Suspicion on me is legit" always sounds like an unwitting confession to me. And even as early as his second game...how is it possible to not even consider that any two given players could be scum (except, of course, when you're scum yourself and know that they aren't both scum)? The overreaction is also suspicious, but that appears to be one of Rodemy's "Rodemy" tells.
I see where you're coming from here. I find Rodemy's play concerning missing the option of both players being scum consistent (that is, Rodemy's posts do read as if s/he had not considered that possibility, not that s/he was saying one thing and thinking another). I don't think this shows privileged information.
Quote from Cantripmancer »
Quote from Rodemy »
Cantrip seems super towny to me. Go you
Never a fan of blatant town shout-outs, especially those over the top.
Compare with the bolded below.
Quote from Cantripmancer »
It feels like he's trying very hard to find a reason to say Kank's town, but waffling on that attempt. (Ok, I guess nothing "impossible from town", but still concerning.)
I read the waffling on Kankennon thing to be realistic. I'm not sure about anyone else, but Kankennon's play is certainly frustrating for me since I see it as harming the town. There is a part of me that wants to lynch him/her to show how ridiculous s/he is being. Ultimately, though, I think Kankennon is town. There is some internal struggle there, though; I imagine this internal struggle will be present in others, possibly magnified by weaker town reads on Kankennon.
Quote from Cantripmancer »
I'm amazed and a little dismayed at how quickly the Kank wagon evaporated. I don't think I've ever seen that this close to deadline. In other player's experiences, is that more indicative of a town-wagon or a scum-wagon?
Do you think Kankennon is scum? If so, why? Push the wagon if you think it's the correct one. Or are you thinking that scum disbanded the wagon to save a scumbuddy? If so, I think swishh and I were the main detractors of the Kankennon wagon. I can find you links if you want. The way in which players hopped off the Kankennon wagon is definitely good hunting. Go check Kosakosa coming on and getting off the wagon. Super weak.
Quote from Cantripmancer »
(Interesting. I just learned something about my gameplay. I'm more ok with players saying "PlayerX is town!" and being held accountable for statements like that later than I am with them saying "here's why PlayerX is town" before it becomes vital.)
For comparison with above.
Quote from Cantripmancer »
I'm still not seeing clear town intent from Kank; I don't know why we're letting him off the hook.
(@swishh and Cythare) Sorry if my language was confusing. My question is why Rodemy's not considering a possibility and operating under that assumption is suspect to you (or do you think that Rodemy was not operating under that assumption? If so, why)?
The more relevant part is the blatant way he went about "realizing" (or just realizing w/o quotes) that there was the other possibility. It looked like it was fabricated. I do think that he was not operating under that assumption, but it primarily stems from his later reaction when others pointed out the flaw in his logic.
I'm just going to have to outright disagree with this point. I've been in multiple games (and read several others) where seasoned players called townhunting out as being scummy. It makes it look like the player is being active, and makes someone an easier target for scum if enough players agree with the "findings" that make them town. Spend a whole day townhunting, get enough players to agree, then NK that player: A full day of being "productive", and "how could you have known the scum would go for them"?
Are you implying that one can only townhunt one player per Day? What do you think of the idea of trying to clear as many players as possible, making PoE a viable weapon against scum?
Not at all. I'm implying that scum could get away with only townhunting one player per day, depending on the quality of their townhunting and how much other fluff they could pass off as content.
And I think that coming out of the gates intending to use PoE to find scum is not a viable approach. Later on, it's fine, but on D1 I don't believe there's enough to go by.
If you are attacking someone for doing something 'safe', then it's not safe, is it? This just creates WIFOM, and you should instead consider whether the player's actions and intentions are pro-town or anti-town.
I mean a few things:
1) In a Basic, there are 9 town and 3 scum. Even just playing a numbers game, townhunting is "safer" because of the distribution.
2) The more relevant things, though, are that I feel a lot of players tend to fixate on scumhunting logic that has more issues more than townhunting logic that has issues.
3) And that it's safer for scum, because any scumhunting they do is either bussing or fabrication. They can be more sincere in their townhunting, allowing for the intention to ring true regardless of alignment.
Players should be able to prove themselves town by their own gameplay rather than by being townhunted.
Who is being proven as townie by being townhunted by others? I really don't understand what you're trying to say here.
No one *has* been proven. I'm just saying that Duplicity was focusing a lot on commending others' town play/seeking out things that were townie (even though, as Tammy pointed out, he did do other things). Cantrip explained it a little better than I have.
Or that I had no interest in going through the effort of casing Duplicity when a stronger scum read of mine was already the active wagon? Why would I try to split the wagon in this scenario?
Again, you seem to think that a player can only do one thing per Day (i.e. townhunting or scumhunting one player at a time). There are presumably three scum, and your stronger read may not even be correct. Do you really think that not pursuing other players is a viable option to town?
I don't think that at all, and if I hadn't come in a week late, I definitely would have pursued Duplicity more actively. It was the timing of my return from V/LA that made me less interested, because I was more interested in Kank (and still am).
On that note, since his wagon has all but dissipated and I was only fake-voting him:
Holy crap, karn is not lurking anymore and actually typing things. Heres to hoping its not just dismissive handwaves again. Or answering other people's questions.
Where have I done that before (bolded)? I can't think of a time.
Its funny because you admit to answering other peoples questions.
So I've answered other people's questions. Am I suppose to ignore it when someone asks me a question?
My issue is that how could he possibly NOT consider that they could either both be scum or both be town? If he did explain this, I would love to stand corrected, but declaring a dichotomy between two players takes an experienced player, and Rodemy has admitted he is not an experienced player.
And so, my simplest explanation for this is that he's scum and hence knows that exactly one of them is scum and the other is town (Sir Karn being scum and Kank being town).
Rodemy was talking about Kank and Duplicity, not Kank and Karn. If you've read the last couple of pages you should know that...
55: Defends Rodemy - genuinely interested in TMCT's opinon (OK)
70: Criticizes Rodemy's play without taking a stance on his alignment
97: Stances! Rodemy+Archae = scum, TMCT = town
Congrats, you can tell me what my reads were at the time. What is scummy about them?
144: Void is town...?
216: backpedals town read on Void
278: Void has the most obvious meta (???)
427: Void is the easiest person to read on the site (!?!?!?!?!?)
462: "Solidifies" town read on Void - knows Void is town so he doesn't really need actual evidence
I'll go in depth in hopefully less than 24 hours (things happening GIP).
You're willing to write Tammy off as town (which I agree with) based on Duplicity's opening post, which shows you're not interested in taking in further information to formulate a proper read.
You agree with writing Tammy off as town, but then say I'm scummy for not continuing more investigation on her?
Your flipflopping on Archae indicates opportunism.
I had him as scummy, then later in Day 1 I did a reread and changed my mind. What flipflopping and what opportunism? (Flipflopping would mean that I went back and forth, where I did not.)
The more relevant part is the blatant way he went about "realizing" (or just realizing w/o quotes) that there was the other possibility. It looked like it was fabricated. I do think that he was not operating under that assumption, but it primarily stems from his later reaction when others pointed out the flaw in his logic.
Thanks. This is not what I originally thought you were objecting to.
Not at all. I'm implying that scum could get away with only townhunting one player per day, depending on the quality of their townhunting and how much other fluff they could pass off as content.
Is this what you saw Duplicity doing?
I mean a few things:
1) In a Basic, there are 9 town and 3 scum. Even just playing a numbers game, townhunting is "safer" because of the distribution.
2) The more relevant things, though, are that I feel a lot of players tend to fixate on scumhunting logic that has more issues more than townhunting logic that has issues.
I don't understand what you're saying in point #2. Particularly, the bolded.
3) And that it's safer for scum, because any scumhunting they do is either bussing or fabrication. They can be more sincere in their townhunting, allowing for the intention to ring true regardless of alignment.
Sincere townhunting is good for the town (regardless of the alignment of the townhunter), just as scum bussing buddies is helpful to town (thought that usually occurs after the scum being bussed has drawn attention). What I haven't seen is why you believe that Duplicity was townhunting as scum rather than townhunting as town.
Note that I am assuming that town do townhunt. You seemed to want to categorically object to that notion, but I think you will admit that town will townhunt as well; hence, my stance.
So I'm still not seeing what made you switch your vote to me after you came back from V/LA. You suddenly dropped your want to vote Kank and you dropped your actually vote on Rodemy without explaining it at all - in order to vote me without explaining it at all.
What does being at the top of your list yesterDay have to do with the fact that you voted Kank and Rodemy toDay before switching to me - and the alleged reason you switched to me is because of stuff I did yesterDay. You're opportunistically wagon-hopping.
This needs emphasized. Anyone who thinks swishh is town - can you explain this to me? Because swishh can't.
My issue is that how could he possibly NOT consider that they could either both be scum or both be town? If he did explain this, I would love to stand corrected, but declaring a dichotomy between two players takes an experienced player, and Rodemy has admitted he is not an experienced player.
And so, my simplest explanation for this is that he's scum and hence knows that exactly one of them is scum and the other is town (Sir Karn being scum and Kank being town).
Rodemy was talking about Kank and Duplicity, not Kank and Karn. If you've read the last couple of pages you should know that...
Since you've assumed the role of answering for Rodemy, I'll assume the role of thanking you for him.
OK, Sir Karn. I'll spell it reallllll easy2understand.
1. I couldn't vote Kank before I went on V/LA because that would put him at L-1.
2. After Void flipped town, Kank, Rodemy, and you were top scum suspects.
3. I voted Rodemy for pressure.
4. I returned from V/LA, did a quick skim, saw some towntelling from Kank.
5. I decided to vote my strongest scum suspect.
55: Defends Rodemy - genuinely interested in TMCT's opinon (OK)
70: Criticizes Rodemy's play without taking a stance on his alignment
97: Stances! Rodemy+Archae = scum, TMCT = town
Congrats, you can tell me what my reads were at the time. What is scummy about them?
144: Void is town...?
216: backpedals town read on Void
278: Void has the most obvious meta (???)
427: Void is the easiest person to read on the site (!?!?!?!?!?)
462: "Solidifies" town read on Void - knows Void is town so he doesn't really need actual evidence
I'll go in depth in hopefully less than 24 hours (things happening GIP).
You're willing to write Tammy off as town (which I agree with) based on Duplicity's opening post, which shows you're not interested in taking in further information to formulate a proper read.
You agree with writing Tammy off as town, but then say I'm scummy for not continuing more investigation on her?
Yeah so see the thing is, I didn't conclude Duplicity was town after just 1 post. Apparently 1 post is enough for you to determine someone's alignment. Well, 0 posts is technically enough, but you can't admit that.
Your flipflopping on Archae indicates opportunism.
I had him as scummy, then later in Day 1 I did a reread and changed my mind. What flipflopping and what opportunism? (Flipflopping would mean that I went back and forth, where I did not.)
Funny how your reads always drastically change whenever you decide to do a "reread."
Not at all. I'm implying that scum could get away with only townhunting one player per day, depending on the quality of their townhunting and how much other fluff they could pass off as content.
Is this what you saw Duplicity doing?
No. I was using an extreme example in the hypothetical to make the point more clear. I recognize that he was hunting for more than one town, and it honestly doesn't make too much of a difference to me, because he went out of his way to do it, and to find things and say "see, this person is town".
1) In a Basic, there are 9 town and 3 scum. Even just playing a numbers game, townhunting is "safer" because of the distribution.
2) The more relevant things, though, are that I feel a lot of players tend to fixate on scumhunting logic that has more issues more than townhunting logic that has issues.
I don't understand what you're saying in point #2. Particularly, the bolded.
How many complaints have you seen in this thread about anyone's townhunting v. anyone's scumhunting, aside from the pushback that I received when I stated this? People tend to let bad townhunting slide a lot easier than they do bad scumhunting, because bad "scumhunting" is scummy, while a bad towntell is just dismissed.
3) And that it's safer for scum, because any scumhunting they do is either bussing or fabrication. They can be more sincere in their townhunting, allowing for the intention to ring true regardless of alignment.
Sincere townhunting is good for the town (regardless of the alignment of the townhunter), just as scum bussing buddies is helpful to town (thought that usually occurs after the scum being bussed has drawn attention). What I haven't seen is why you believe that Duplicity was townhunting as scum rather than townhunting as town.
Note that I am assuming that town do townhunt. You seemed to want to categorically object to that notion, but I think you will admit that town will townhunt as well; hence, my stance.
I'm not sure I agree with this statement. Does bussing help town, or does it just help a scum save his own skin by trying to look townie?
Also, I guess to a degree I do object to actively seeking out other townies. Players do it to some degree, especially as part of a T/S list, but how often do people go around asking questions specifically to get a town read and/or pop in to say "hey, see what this person's doing, that's Town"? They're different to me.
So I'm still not seeing what made you switch your vote to me after you came back from V/LA. You suddenly dropped your want to vote Kank and you dropped your actually vote on Rodemy without explaining it at all - in order to vote me without explaining it at all.
What does being at the top of your list yesterDay have to do with the fact that you voted Kank and Rodemy toDay before switching to me - and the alleged reason you switched to me is because of stuff I did yesterDay. You're opportunistically wagon-hopping.
This needs emphasized. Anyone who thinks swishh is town - can you explain this to me? Because swishh can't.
Yeah that's sort of your whole thing. You can't find any reason to believe that I'm scum. You just say you can't find any reason that I'm town. You yourself admitted that I was scum on your T/S list only by PoE.
@Cythare: You say "I've been in multiple games (and read several others) where seasoned players called townhunting out as being scummy."
Can you show me some examples?
The first one (jdisawesomesauce in #70) was saying that no one should list why they have town reads on the town part of their T/S lists. I think even you should recognize how ridiculous that is.
The second one you linked (Shalako in Animaniacs), Shalako was a Serial Killer, and he was talking to town!Seppel who was encouraging townhunting (and Seppel is a very experienced player).
In the third one (TMCT in Presidential), TMCT was scum.
@Cythare: You say "I've been in multiple games (and read several others) where seasoned players called townhunting out as being scummy."
Can you show me some examples?
The first one (jdisawesomesauce in #70) was saying that no one should list why they have town reads on the town part of their T/S lists. I think even you should recognize how ridiculous that is.
The second one you linked (Shalako in Animaniacs), Shalako was a Serial Killer, and he was talking to town!Seppel who was encouraging townhunting (and Seppel is a very experienced player).
In the third fourth one (TMCT in Presidential), TMCT was scum.
Sooo.
What about the third one, where Iso talks about going around with the intent of clearing town instead of lynching scum isn't a town mindset? That's the crux of what I was trying to get at.
Also, I stated that the TMCT one is scum in my post, so I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish with restating that one.
I'm aware that Seppel is an experienced player, but so is Iso. Also, Shalako being a Serial Killer is somewhat irrelevant to this discussion, as SKs can legitimately scumhunt too?
My issue is that how could he possibly NOT consider that they could either both be scum or both be town? If he did explain this, I would love to stand corrected, but declaring a dichotomy between two players takes an experienced player, and Rodemy has admitted he is not an experienced player.
And so, my simplest explanation for this is that he's scum and hence knows that exactly one of them is scum and the other is town (Sir Karn being scum and Kank being town).
Rodemy was talking about Kank and Duplicity, not Kank and Karn. If you've read the last couple of pages you should know that...
Since you've assumed the role of answering for Rodemy, I'll assume the role of thanking you for him.
You've been twisting it when multiple people have already commented to the facts...
OK, Sir Karn. I'll spell it reallllll easy2understand.
1. I couldn't vote Kank before I went on V/LA because that would put him at L-1.
2. After Void flipped town, Kank, Rodemy, and you were top scum suspects.
3. I voted Rodemy for pressure.
4. I returned from V/LA, did a quick skim, saw some towntelling from Kank.
5. I decided to vote my strongest scum suspect.
Capiche?
And you didn't explain any of it until I pressured you. It's like pulling teeth trying to get reasoning for your vote out of you. And your reasoning is still sketchy.
55: Defends Rodemy - genuinely interested in TMCT's opinon (OK)
70: Criticizes Rodemy's play without taking a stance on his alignment
97: Stances! Rodemy+Archae = scum, TMCT = town
Congrats, you can tell me what my reads were at the time. What is scummy about them?
144: Void is town...?
216: backpedals town read on Void
278: Void has the most obvious meta (???)
427: Void is the easiest person to read on the site (!?!?!?!?!?)
462: "Solidifies" town read on Void - knows Void is town so he doesn't really need actual evidence
I'll go in depth in hopefully less than 24 hours (things happening GIP).
I stopped taking notes on you there since I was pretty much convinced at that point that you're scum.
lol. You didn't list one scummy thing above.
You say potatoes, I say poscummy.
Of the above, what you think is scummy is how I talked to Archae in one post, and how you don't believe that I know how to metagame Void. That's your whole case.
You're willing to write Tammy off as town (which I agree with) based on Duplicity's opening post, which shows you're not interested in taking in further information to formulate a proper read.
You agree with writing Tammy off as town, but then say I'm scummy for not continuing more investigation on her?
Yeah so see the thing is, I didn't conclude Duplicity was town after just 1 post. Apparently 1 post is enough for you to determine someone's alignment. Well, 0 posts is technically enough, but you can't admit that.
Duplicity's opening - as in what he came into the game with - his initial wave of stuff. Not exactly one post.
And even then, I still don't see your point. 1 post is enough in some cases. Have you never figured out someone's alignment in one post in other games? I know I have.
Your flipflopping on Archae indicates opportunism.
I had him as scummy, then later in Day 1 I did a reread and changed my mind. What flipflopping and what opportunism? (Flipflopping would mean that I went back and forth, where I did not.)
Funny how your reads always drastically change whenever you decide to do a "reread."
Yea, that's why I do rereads. So I can look at things with a clear mind and find things I had missed before.
@Cythare: You say "I've been in multiple games (and read several others) where seasoned players called townhunting out as being scummy."
Can you show me some examples?
The first one (jdisawesomesauce in #70) was saying that no one should list why they have town reads on the town part of their T/S lists. I think even you should recognize how ridiculous that is.
The second one you linked (Shalako in Animaniacs), Shalako was a Serial Killer, and he was talking to town!Seppel who was encouraging townhunting (and Seppel is a very experienced player).
In the third fourth one (TMCT in Presidential), TMCT was scum.
Sooo.
What about the third one, where Iso talks about going around with the intent of clearing town instead of lynching scum isn't a town mindset? That's the crux of what I was trying to get at.
Also, I stated that the TMCT one is scum in my post, so I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish with restating that one.
I'm aware that Seppel is an experienced player, but so is Iso. Also, Shalako being a Serial Killer is somewhat irrelevant to this discussion, as SKs can legitimately scumhunt too?
Woops. Didn't see the third one (I only saw three when I was writing earlier).
So basically you're saying it's completely opinion and multiple experienced players have conflicting opinions on it? That seems to me like townhunting should be considered a null tell then - not a scumtell like you're pushing it to be.
Woops. Didn't see the third one (I only saw three when I was writing earlier).
So basically you're saying it's completely opinion and multiple experienced players have conflicting opinions on it? That seems to me like townhunting should be considered a null tell then - not a scumtell like you're pushing it to be.
It seems to me that if it's "completely opinion", then my opinion would be as valid as the next person's. So, you have a problem with my opinion being that it's scummy, when I've explained my opinion and cited cases where others think it's scummy? It looks like you're really struggling to find my opinion scummy, when you yourself admit that opinions on it vary.
Guess it's time to reread Sir Karn for myself rather than base my read of him on the Kank lynch I was expecting.
Sir Karn, what I don't get is if you think I'm scum, why are you constantly hounding me on why I think you're scum? See how I think you're scum and therefore don't care that you think I'm scum? See how that works?
Is there a reason why Rancid Raptor is only 'probs town' and not just 'town'?
That is, do you have reason to doubt either 1. that his/her power is legitimate, or 2. that such a role is a town role?
Yes.
But, no I don't have a reason to doubt that his power is legitimate or that its a town power.
I need to take a break though and read through some Isos, especially Kank and kosakosa, and think about some things.
I'm still reading through Kank and kosakosa so to be continued here.
So you say you are caught up, but you mention more than once that you still need to read up on Kosakosa and me.
I can understand you needing to read up on me, but what is/was it about Kosakosa that made/is making it hard for you to read him?
Yes, I'm caught up. And yes, I do. Kosa was a scum read of duplicitys. He was also a scum read of confirmed town; therefore, I'm going to put extra thought into reading both of you.
He's someone that I forget about until he posts, and besides that I read this game in a little over 24 hours. I haven't been able to fully digest it.
Couple quick things though. Kank, yes people have taken a picture of their notes in a mafia game before. Kank hits one of my mafia weaknesses though with his self meta. But damn does he have an anti town playstyle. Hopefully soon he'll realize that reaction gambits and the like or acting scummy for responses is not actually cool or productive. It's really difficult to tell if he's scum or just bad town.
Your last line was actually my goal during my "oafish stunt" and I think it played out nicely.
It may not have been "cool" per se, but I feel that what I did was actually very productive.
I wanted there to be a lot more focus on Sir Karn and Cythare (along with Duplicity/you) and that's exactly what's happened since then.
See this is dangerous because you're assuming causality that doesn't apply to you. Your behavior actually works against town interests, and I'm not seeing any reason to believe you have enough clout in this game to be the catalyst for people getting looked at.
Woops. Didn't see the third one (I only saw three when I was writing earlier).
So basically you're saying it's completely opinion and multiple experienced players have conflicting opinions on it? That seems to me like townhunting should be considered a null tell then - not a scumtell like you're pushing it to be.
It seems to me that if it's "completely opinion", then my opinion would be as valid as the next person's. So, you have a problem with my opinion being that it's scummy, when I've explained my opinion and cited cases where others think it's scummy? It looks like you're really struggling to find my opinion scummy, when you yourself admit that opinions on it vary.
Guess it's time to reread Sir Karn for myself rather than base my read of him on the Kank lynch I was expecting.
I'm saying: Why do you see it as a scumtell?
You cite opinions that match yours and say that you're right because those experienced players you cited agreed.
The thing is, I could just as easily cite (and already did one) experienced players who say the exact opposite.
So if we're adding up both opinions, that leads me to believe that townhunting is not a tell at all, therefore null.
The fact that you went back and handpicked some people who agreed with you and ignored those experienced players who didn't agree isn't helping your case at all.
Sir Karn, what I don't get is if you think I'm scum, why are you constantly hounding me on why I think you're scum? See how I think you're scum and therefore don't care that you think I'm scum? See how that works?
I still have to convince other people that you're scum. And the fact that you switched your vote to me on OMGUS is part of that.
Yeah that's sort of your whole thing. You can't find any reason to believe that I'm scum. You just say you can't find any reason that I'm town. You yourself admitted that I was scum on your T/S list only by PoE.
Yeah that's sort of your whole thing. You can't find any reason to believe that I'm scum. You just say you can't find any reason that I'm town. You yourself admitted that I was scum on your T/S list only by PoE.
It's like you haven't even been reading my posts lately.
For instance, what is the scum motivation for him coming into the thread and declaring that he saw archae reading another game and concluding that he was doing meta research, when he didn't have a town read on archae to begin with? What is the scum motivation for him to defend rodemy to the death the way he has, so much so that its flared up rodemy's paranoia into thinking that my slot is scum? Do you really think he'd do that as scum? I mean there's scum white knighting and then there's just being plain silly.
If they both (Archae and Duplicity) are scum, there's a pretty easy motivation to try to put one of his buddies into a better position when he sees Archae reading another thread. Hell, since no one else could corroborate his story, Archae didn't even need to have been reading another thread in this scenario. Free town points.
Rodemy, I'm less sure on, although Rodemy being so new makes him more of a wild card. Maybe he was trying to garner favor if he expected to get into endgame with him.
And I don't know what Duplicity would do as scum, or how silly of a game he plays. I wouldn't put it past some other players on this site to try stuff like this as scum, though.
Well, the archae one would be odd to do as if he ever flipped scum he'd have drawn a link there for no reason.
The thing with rodemy though is that he is so new it does no good. New players are notorious for being paranoid of someone defending them hard because jut like rodemy did, they tend to think they're being setup. Which rodemy did in the case of void. You have to be really careful white knighting newbies for that purpose, and duplicity is experienced enough to know that.
I wasn't using the silly reference to refer to duplicity specifically, but in general it's silly to do as scum. Although I do believe its something that he wouldn't do as scum because he just cares about his scum games less.
Woops. Didn't see the third one (I only saw three when I was writing earlier).
So basically you're saying it's completely opinion and multiple experienced players have conflicting opinions on it? That seems to me like townhunting should be considered a null tell then - not a scumtell like you're pushing it to be.
It seems to me that if it's "completely opinion", then my opinion would be as valid as the next person's. So, you have a problem with my opinion being that it's scummy, when I've explained my opinion and cited cases where others think it's scummy? It looks like you're really struggling to find my opinion scummy, when you yourself admit that opinions on it vary.
Guess it's time to reread Sir Karn for myself rather than base my read of him on the Kank lynch I was expecting.
I'm saying: Why do you see it as a scumtell?
You cite opinions that match yours and say that you're right because those experienced players you cited agreed.
The thing is, I could just as easily cite (and already did one) experienced players who say the exact opposite.
So if we're adding up both opinions, that leads me to believe that townhunting is not a tell at all, therefore null.
The fact that you went back and handpicked some people who agreed with you and ignored those experienced players who didn't agree isn't helping your case at all.
I explained why I see it as a scumtell. I then stated that it's an opinion I acquired from reading games when I was relatively new. You then asked me to cite examples of experienced players who agree with me. The fact that you're trying to twist that into saying I'm "handpicking" when you were the one that requested it just looks terrible.
The way they do it. Like, i know i post some really off **** that will get anyone to go, ummm... what?
But dup accepted almost all of it right away.. and kept to it the entire time.
Tammy moreso that her initial reads missed a lot of things in the beginning: wagons, Kosa... she had reads on EVERYONE BUT KOSA... at least she told us she was waiting on the finish of the read to judge kank...)
And her being the only one who can vouch for Dup on another forum.. (when she was hand picked by him nonetheless)
.
Well I'm just happy that duplicity is getting better at reading newbies as he used to mistake newb tells for scum tells.
As far as my initial reads: let me explain something to you so maybe you can put this in perspective. I literally just moved across the country and started a new job. I'm playing in 3 games at another site and modding another. I had no intention of signing up at a new site and taking on a new game, let alone one with more than 800 rather long posts. I did this as a favor to duplicity because he didn't want his slot getting modkilled and messing up the game. Even with everything I have to do and was responsible for already, I made time to read this entire game in a little over 24 hours after replacing in. The mod gave an extension for a reason. There is no expectation to get a game read in a day after replacing in.
And I'm not trying to toot my own horn here or ate, but if you're going to criticize what I've contributed, you're darn well going to recognize that what I have done is more than expected. As I said when I replaced in, I get my best reads from interacting with people. My first priority was to finish reading the game so that I could have time to interact with people and look back at things after getting caught up with the gamestate.
So, no I haven't analyzed wagons nor do I have reads on everyone, not even ones I feel really great about. Has anyone else analyzed any wagons? I read the game in a little over a day, I need to let it settle and reread through things. This should not be hard to understand.
And I'm not the only one who can vouch for duplicity. He gave you two links to games, you can meta him and find that this is his playstyle.
Is there a reason why Rancid Raptor is only 'probs town' and not just 'town'?
That is, do you have reason to doubt either 1. that his/her power is legitimate, or 2. that such a role is a town role?
Yes.
But, no I don't have a reason to doubt that his power is legitimate or that its a town power.
I see this as a Null tell Archae. This would be her first game here. she doesn't know the setups types or the hate on this site for scum double voters. The same reason why rodemy was going crazy about me being 'confirmed town' was null.
You're implicitly taking credit for these things happening when it is not the case. You also were very close to being toDay's lynch before others stuck out their necks and defended you, and you are not the one that got Cythare to post more.
You need to reread these interactions and realize that you are not single-handedly playing this game against the scum and are, in fact, potentially hurting the town severely with your play.
I was V/LA when you voted me. Are you really going to commit to the position that Kosakosa and I are scum and I'm following in his footsteps so blatantly?
What I've seen from Rodemy lately:
In 729 he takes the position that either Sir Karn or Kank is scum, but when I asked him why they can't both be, he says that he didn't consider that possibility. Am I to believe that? He ends with an attack on Kank for mentioning scum numbers, which is something I did in my first scum game on this site.
Moreover he ends the post making a decision to the matter: that Kank is scum and Sir Karn is therefore town. While I completely disagree that Sir Karn is town, Rodemy is still playing into the false dichotomy he established.
In 732 he literally mimics Cantrip's criticism of Kank's comment to you: "steeeeetch."
Post 815 is an arguable slip: accusing Duplicity of "painting him town." There's a lot to be said about this, and I want Rodemy to respond.
@Rodemy: Why am I scummy for having doubts that you are noob town, but Duplicity/Tammy is scummy for insisting that you are noob town?
In 841 he backpedals his scum read on Kank.
In 866 he takes the most noncommittal position possible, but then come post 868 he has found all three scum, and neither Sir Karn nor Kank is on the list.
Given my scum read on Sir Karn and the fact that he seems to be the only one else suspicious of Rodemy, I think Sir Karn is setting himself to bus Rodemy.
B)
In 818 Cythare takes a defensive stance towards Kosakosa who had just questioned some of Cythare's actions. Cythare was fence-sitting pretty hard with his/her scum read on Kosakosa, stating that Kosakosa is free to move up and/or down depending on how much he posts (wtf?). Cythare isn't questioning Kosakosa's play at all - i.e. no scum hunting. Just like Sir Karn has put me on his scum list for convenience, Cythare is doing the same with Kosakosa. Neither seem to have any real cases against their scum reads.
At this point I'm committing to a Sir Karn/Cythare/Rodemy scum team.
Because he's not going to just say "oh, you got me."
Cythare's 872. And your two's interactions make a dichotomy out of you.
(I didn't delete the rest of this quote because I'm on my phone and that ****'s a pain.)
@swishh: You're still not answering me. Why did you vote me when you did? What sparked the change, in your words?
lol. "I'm trying to omgus here! Leave me alone!"
Why am I suddenly your strongest scum read after you wanted both Kank and Rodemy lynched earlier? When you came back from V/LA you didn't say one word about me but you switched your vote to me.
You know your Kank and Rodemy votes came after you made that case against me that you're now saying is why you're voting me...
Can you link me to your case on me yesterDay? (and not just the half-paragraph in your T/S list)
You and Void were at the top of my scum list yesterDay. When Void flipped town, Kank moved up. When I went on V/LA, Kank was at L-2 and RR was going to hammer him to test his ability. I kept my vote on Rodemy for pressure.
Are you trying to imply that the reasons I listed in my T/S list were inadequate to call you scum?
So I'm still not seeing what made you switch your vote to me after you came back from V/LA. You suddenly dropped your want to vote Kank and you dropped your actually vote on Rodemy without explaining it at all - in order to vote me without explaining it at all.
What does being at the top of your list yesterDay have to do with the fact that you voted Kank and Rodemy toDay before switching to me - and the alleged reason you switched to me is because of stuff I did yesterDay. You're opportunistically wagon-hopping.
I don't think it's adequate. When you said you cased me I figured it was more than half a paragraph.
I thinkKank already asked you this, but *why* do you think we can't both be scum?I had a long day and overreacted. I'm still going to disagree with you on this point, but I'll stop riding it into the ground, since none of it is common.
If they both (Archae and Duplicity) are scum, there's a pretty easy motivation to try to put one of his buddies into a better position when he sees Archae reading another thread. Hell, since no one else could corroborate his story, Archae didn't even need to have been reading another thread in this scenario. Free town points.
Rodemy, I'm less sure on, although Rodemy being so new makes him more of a wild card. Maybe he was trying to garner favor if he expected to get into endgame with him.
And I don't know what Duplicity would do as scum, or how silly of a game he plays. I wouldn't put it past some other players on this site to try stuff like this as scum, though.
Since I didn't bother to actually reread earlier stuff when I posted my newest T/S list (which I have now come to regret), all I could recall about his Void push was asking anyone who had a town read on him why, saying he disagreed, and then insulting him. But fine, I'll concede that he did more, and that I was incorrect.
I'm a little confused by the syntax of your first question here, but I'm saying the degree of his reaction feels fabricated.
Happily. jdisawesomesauce in Basic #70, Shalako in Animaniacs (this was more related to faux-townhunting, though), Iso in Mean Girls Mafia. It's also been used by Mafia as an attempt for an easy mudsling, though, so there's that (such as by TMCT in Presidential Mafia).
Of course I admitted to "oversimplifying", as it was a summary. And if you actually read what that summary was, townhunting *wasn't* the case I was trying to push.
Your point here is in direct conflict to the previous statement. I state here that I'm not making a full case against Duplicity yet, which is why the "only" thing I have against him is the townhunting (which isn't even true, nor the crux of my case, it's just what Tammy locked onto). I noted here that I wasn't making a case against Duplicity. Explain to me how saving a case for the next Day when I believe the current wagon is also scummy is scummy.
Please explain to me what I missed then. It looks here like Kank is looking to pin me on something that others also agreed with.
I really have no response to this other than "I thought I had cased him, but didn't feel like looking back while already catching up". Also, I figured that Kank's scumminess spoke enough for itself that it wouldn't matter that I was too lazy to rebuild it when the wagon was already barreling downhill.
Okay.
Not when I started my catch-up. Since I left during Night and Seppel provides links to major events, I started at the beginning of the Day to try and read things in chronological order (responding as I went, as previously noted). When I was reading the post of Duplicity's that I asked questions on, he wasn't missing yet.
Because I had recalled disliking you actively before, and was tired of your games. My full list of times I noted things against you are:
362: At this point, my skepticism was minor. You had a lot of reads that didn't match up to mine, but I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.
411: I mention here that I don't like a lot of the "missing logic" and "logic leaps" you're performing. I was specifically referring to:
-356 where you left out why TMCT's and Sir Karn's posts where scummy,
-359, which I presume was part of your "oafish stunt" where you say you were a good lynch candidate, only to go back and forth on this point for fun,
-375, for calling TMCT scummy for a) calling someone scummy for having strong desire to policy lynch a newbie, b) using large font when Rodemy didn't get the first several times he stated something, c) undefined "fluff", d) fabricated statistics(?), e) calling out a dichotomy that Kank doesn't agree with, f) misattributing the "fallacy of equivocation" that Archae used against TMCT re: percentages as a "BS argument"
379: The "being curious what wagons people will jump on" looked off but not overtly scummy at the time.
380: This wasn't a problem at the time, but considering that you jumped on me for asking Duplicity questions when he'd already been missing a while, I figured it would be important to call this out.
The different way you approached Kosa's absence in 379 from Cantrip's absence in 380.
661: Noted in 668, but I disliked how you wanted to see a T/S list from everyone before D1 ended rather than actually asking for reads/opinions. You responded multiple times after then but never responded to mine, nor did you follow up on no one else providing you a list.
In fact, you basically ignored all of my responses to your stuff throughout the entire day.
I had no interest in going through things again with a scummy player that wouldn't even give me the time of day.
I didn't quote it because I was posting from my phone, and I've already stated repeatedly why I said it: to nettle Kosa while also giving Cantrip an answer that he didn't need to wait for swishh to come back to get.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Kank was hardcore towntelling. Neither Rodemy nor Cythare is getting lynched toDay. You're up.
Consider it explained.
I already answered this question.
Yep. Hopping onto a scum wagon.
Incoming.
Can you truely not believe that i'm just: not good at this?
You don't want to except that someone actually IS new. YOU just want to think it's a scum ploy and I'm really good at this.. did you READ my last game? I was horrible. Here, i am less horrible, but my thoughts are still all over the fuggin place.
Your response to kosas quick reads in i believe 111 was odd to me. If you want a list of things to expect from me: here they are
I will change my opinion on the drop of a dime
I will go off on wild tangents that make logical sense to me and not many other people
I will make mistakes.
But honestly, i am learning here.
I am waiting for the next Day so i can form some sort of opinion. I can't think with this many people typing at once and arguing. i am better when there are fewer people.
We have yet to come to an agreement and it's pissing me off.
I am weary to jump on ANY wagon right now because nobody's argument is convincing enough. I have my own opinions, i am sticking too them. Call me scum if yopu want but that won't change a thing.
Something you failed to explain, and now you aren't even explaining the things that you're now saying explained what you said.
Why?
No you didn't
lol. omgus some more bro.
You sure about that?
If you admit you're not good at this, what makes you think I'm scummy for doing something you don't understand?
Actually your posts are a really strange combination of mess with the occasional point that I completely agree with, which make me think - where did that come from? This makes me believe you know things.
This is post 111.
I know you're new. I don't think you're pretending. But new players can be scum. Now answer my question:
@Rodemy: Why am I scummy for having doubts that you are noob town, but Duplicity/Tammy is scummy for insisting that you are noob town?
55: Defends Rodemy - genuinely interested in TMCT's opinon (OK)
70: Criticizes Rodemy's play without taking a stance on his alignment
97: Stances! Rodemy+Archae = scum, TMCT = town
122: makes a lot of sense if Sir Karn and Cythare are both scum (gets jealous that Cythare was town read instead of him for similar content)
130: Spends a lot of time breaking things down for Archae whom he apparently believes is scum
144: Void is town...?
216: backpedals town read on Void
278: Void has the most obvious meta (???)
427: Void is the easiest person to read on the site (!?!?!?!?!?)
462: "Solidifies" town read on Void - knows Void is town so he doesn't really need actual evidence
I stopped taking notes on you there since I was pretty much convinced at that point that you're scum. Your list of reads in 880 could not be any more vague. It clearly shows that your primary interest is not scum hunting but instead taking strategic stances with your opinion of players. You haven't once explained your belief that Cythare and Kank is a dichotomy (can't be both town or both scum). You're willing to write Tammy off as town (which I agree with) based on Duplicity's opening post, which shows you're not interested in taking in further information to formulate a proper read. Your flipflopping on Archae indicates opportunism. I don't get the scum read on Kosakosa at all, but be that as it may. And I'm glad to see that you've decided to bus Cythare. Thanks for making this easy.
But dup accepted almost all of it right away.. and kept to it the entire time.
Tammy moreso that her initial reads missed a lot of things in the beginning: wagons, Kosa... she had reads on EVERYONE BUT KOSA... at least she told us she was waiting on the finish of the read to judge kank...)
And her being the only one who can vouch for Dup on another forum.. (when she was hand picked by him nonetheless)
It's the insistant part that gets me. Calling all this attention to me makes me uncomfortable.
If you go back to my long post where i vote tammy you'll find the post i found odd (that apparently wasn't 111)
Sorry for seeming scummy to you and throwing off your game.
How does my list of reads allegedly show that I'm not interested in scum hunting? (While I'm clearly scumhunting)
I did explain that Kank and Cythare's interactions make them a dichotomy.
Can you bulletpoint your points for me? You made a mess of a paragraph filled with half-points and some things you agree with. I don't even know what I'm suppose to be refuting right now because it doesn't even look like you have a case on me.
Holy crap, karn is not lurking anymore and actually typing things. Heres to hoping its not just dismissive handwaves again. Or answering other people's questions.
It's Hip to be a Square
Where have I done that before (bolded)? I can't think of a time.
Why are you apologizing for "throwing off my reads" if you think I'm scum?
Oh...you know how to metagame, Void huh?
Already explained that.
Where?
Nah, I'm good.
"Suspicion on me is legit" always sounds like an unwitting confession to me. And even as early as his second game...how is it possible to not even consider that any two given players could be scum (except, of course, when you're scum yourself and know that they aren't both scum)? The overreaction is also suspicious, but that appears to be one of Rodemy's "Rodemy" tells.
Never a fan of blatant town shout-outs, especially those over the top.
This part is ok.
This feels like he's trying to fabricate rationale for not "realizing" that they could both be scum.
So he wants Kank to be scum, but concludes that Kank's not.
Hypothetical "if they're both scum, how would this make sense", but then halfway through changes it to Kank flipping town. Continues to suspect Dup.
Back to suspecting both Dup AND Kank...but he's already written Kank off as town from above.
It feels like he's trying very hard to find a reason to say Kank's town, but waffling on that attempt. (Ok, I guess nothing "impossible from town", but still concerning.)
@Rodemy: Per the above, what's a "Nuet"?
I'm amazed and a little dismayed at how quickly the Kank wagon evaporated. I don't think I've ever seen that this close to deadline. In other player's experiences, is that more indicative of a town-wagon or a scum-wagon?
Cythare vs. Tammy...I'm not getting a clear picture at all. A lot of Tammy's attacks feel vicious, but they may just be aggressive. I'm not finding any concerns with Cythare's responses.
Sir Karn's explanation of what he found suspicious of 872 makes sense, although I don't agree with much of his opinions. For example, I tend to fall on the "townhunting is not a town-mindset activity" side of the argument, at least when the townhunting occurs on display for all to see. (Interesting. I just learned something about my gameplay. I'm more ok with players saying "PlayerX is town!" and being held accountable for statements like that later than I am with them saying "here's why PlayerX is town" before it becomes vital.)
I'm still not seeing clear town intent from Kank; I don't know why we're letting him off the hook.
I am missing the idea that you and Cythare are espousing here regarding Rodemy.
See my response to Cythare below:
Which reaction are you talking about here?
(@swishh and Cythare) Sorry if my language was confusing. My question is why Rodemy's not considering a possibility and operating under that assumption is suspect to you (or do you think that Rodemy was not operating under that assumption? If so, why)?
@Cythare:
You still haven't responded to the post you are referencing here. This is a link for ease.
What? I don't like this at all.
Its funny because you admit to answering other peoples questions.
It's Hip to be a Square
And so, my simplest explanation for this is that he's scum and hence knows that exactly one of them is scum and the other is town (Sir Karn being scum and Kank being town).
Nathed by swishh.
I see where you're coming from here. I find Rodemy's play concerning missing the option of both players being scum consistent (that is, Rodemy's posts do read as if s/he had not considered that possibility, not that s/he was saying one thing and thinking another). I don't think this shows privileged information.
Compare with the bolded below.
I read the waffling on Kankennon thing to be realistic. I'm not sure about anyone else, but Kankennon's play is certainly frustrating for me since I see it as harming the town. There is a part of me that wants to lynch him/her to show how ridiculous s/he is being. Ultimately, though, I think Kankennon is town. There is some internal struggle there, though; I imagine this internal struggle will be present in others, possibly magnified by weaker town reads on Kankennon.
Do you think Kankennon is scum? If so, why? Push the wagon if you think it's the correct one. Or are you thinking that scum disbanded the wagon to save a scumbuddy? If so, I think swishh and I were the main detractors of the Kankennon wagon. I can find you links if you want. The way in which players hopped off the Kankennon wagon is definitely good hunting. Go check Kosakosa coming on and getting off the wagon. Super weak.
For comparison with above.
See above. Basically, I'm not seeing scum intent.
The more relevant part is the blatant way he went about "realizing" (or just realizing w/o quotes) that there was the other possibility. It looked like it was fabricated. I do think that he was not operating under that assumption, but it primarily stems from his later reaction when others pointed out the flaw in his logic.
Ah right, thanks. Here you go:
Not at all. I'm implying that scum could get away with only townhunting one player per day, depending on the quality of their townhunting and how much other fluff they could pass off as content.
And I think that coming out of the gates intending to use PoE to find scum is not a viable approach. Later on, it's fine, but on D1 I don't believe there's enough to go by.
I mean a few things:
1) In a Basic, there are 9 town and 3 scum. Even just playing a numbers game, townhunting is "safer" because of the distribution.
2) The more relevant things, though, are that I feel a lot of players tend to fixate on scumhunting logic that has more issues more than townhunting logic that has issues.
3) And that it's safer for scum, because any scumhunting they do is either bussing or fabrication. They can be more sincere in their townhunting, allowing for the intention to ring true regardless of alignment.
No one *has* been proven. I'm just saying that Duplicity was focusing a lot on commending others' town play/seeking out things that were townie (even though, as Tammy pointed out, he did do other things). Cantrip explained it a little better than I have.
I don't think that at all, and if I hadn't come in a week late, I definitely would have pursued Duplicity more actively. It was the timing of my return from V/LA that made me less interested, because I was more interested in Kank (and still am).
On that note, since his wagon has all but dissipated and I was only fake-voting him:
Vote Kankennon
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
This quote
---
So I've answered other people's questions. Am I suppose to ignore it when someone asks me a question?
Can you answer my question?
---
Rodemy was talking about Kank and Duplicity, not Kank and Karn. If you've read the last couple of pages you should know that...
Swishh, you missed this post.
Congrats, you can tell me what my reads were at the time. What is scummy about them?
I was showing Void's inconsistency - something that shows up a lot in his town meta.
I still talk to scumspects like they are people.
I'll go in depth in hopefully less than 24 hours (things happening GIP).
lol. You didn't list one scummy thing above.
My stances are very clear.
How come? I've clearly been scum hunting, what makes you say otherwise?
I did.
You agree with writing Tammy off as town, but then say I'm scummy for not continuing more investigation on her?
I had him as scummy, then later in Day 1 I did a reread and changed my mind. What flipflopping and what opportunism? (Flipflopping would mean that I went back and forth, where I did not.)
What?
Thanks. This is not what I originally thought you were objecting to.
Is this what you saw Duplicity doing?
I don't understand what you're saying in point #2. Particularly, the bolded.
Sincere townhunting is good for the town (regardless of the alignment of the townhunter), just as scum bussing buddies is helpful to town (thought that usually occurs after the scum being bussed has drawn attention). What I haven't seen is why you believe that Duplicity was townhunting as scum rather than townhunting as town.
Note that I am assuming that town do townhunt. You seemed to want to categorically object to that notion, but I think you will admit that town will townhunt as well; hence, my stance.
This needs emphasized. Anyone who thinks swishh is town - can you explain this to me? Because swishh can't.
Since you've assumed the role of answering for Rodemy, I'll assume the role of thanking you for him.
OK, Sir Karn. I'll spell it reallllll easy2understand.
1. I couldn't vote Kank before I went on V/LA because that would put him at L-1.
2. After Void flipped town, Kank, Rodemy, and you were top scum suspects.
3. I voted Rodemy for pressure.
4. I returned from V/LA, did a quick skim, saw some towntelling from Kank.
5. I decided to vote my strongest scum suspect.
Capiche?
Nothing yet.
[redacted]
You were talking to him like you had to justify yourself to him because you knew you were pushing on someone who was town.
mhm.
You say potatoes, I say poscummy.
Yeah. Clearly calculated and self-beneficial.
Ummm everything I've addressed so far.
Where? (pretty sure this is the second time I've asked that)
Yeah so see the thing is, I didn't conclude Duplicity was town after just 1 post. Apparently 1 post is enough for you to determine someone's alignment. Well, 0 posts is technically enough, but you can't admit that.
Funny how your reads always drastically change whenever you decide to do a "reread."
I don't get the scum read on Kosakosa at all, but be that as it may.
No. I was using an extreme example in the hypothetical to make the point more clear. I recognize that he was hunting for more than one town, and it honestly doesn't make too much of a difference to me, because he went out of his way to do it, and to find things and say "see, this person is town".
How many complaints have you seen in this thread about anyone's townhunting v. anyone's scumhunting, aside from the pushback that I received when I stated this? People tend to let bad townhunting slide a lot easier than they do bad scumhunting, because bad "scumhunting" is scummy, while a bad towntell is just dismissed.
I'm not sure I agree with this statement. Does bussing help town, or does it just help a scum save his own skin by trying to look townie?
Also, I guess to a degree I do object to actively seeking out other townies. Players do it to some degree, especially as part of a T/S list, but how often do people go around asking questions specifically to get a town read and/or pop in to say "hey, see what this person's doing, that's Town"? They're different to me.
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Yeah that's sort of your whole thing. You can't find any reason to believe that I'm scum. You just say you can't find any reason that I'm town. You yourself admitted that I was scum on your T/S list only by PoE.
The first one (jdisawesomesauce in #70) was saying that no one should list why they have town reads on the town part of their T/S lists. I think even you should recognize how ridiculous that is.
The second one you linked (Shalako in Animaniacs), Shalako was a Serial Killer, and he was talking to town!Seppel who was encouraging townhunting (and Seppel is a very experienced player).
In the third one (TMCT in Presidential), TMCT was scum.
Sooo.
What about the third one, where Iso talks about going around with the intent of clearing town instead of lynching scum isn't a town mindset? That's the crux of what I was trying to get at.
Also, I stated that the TMCT one is scum in my post, so I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish with restating that one.
I'm aware that Seppel is an experienced player, but so is Iso. Also, Shalako being a Serial Killer is somewhat irrelevant to this discussion, as SKs can legitimately scumhunt too?
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You've been twisting it when multiple people have already commented to the facts...
And you didn't explain any of it until I pressured you. It's like pulling teeth trying to get reasoning for your vote out of you. And your reasoning is still sketchy.
Of the above, what you think is scummy is how I talked to Archae in one post, and how you don't believe that I know how to metagame Void. That's your whole case.
So now you're backtracking on saying that they were vague. Changing up your story until someone believes it.
I said it back in 880 (among other places).
Duplicity's opening - as in what he came into the game with - his initial wave of stuff. Not exactly one post.
And even then, I still don't see your point. 1 post is enough in some cases. Have you never figured out someone's alignment in one post in other games? I know I have.
Yea, that's why I do rereads. So I can look at things with a clear mind and find things I had missed before.
Have you read all of my points on why Kosa is scum? If so, do you truly not understand it or do you just disagree?
Woops. Didn't see the third one (I only saw three when I was writing earlier).
So basically you're saying it's completely opinion and multiple experienced players have conflicting opinions on it? That seems to me like townhunting should be considered a null tell then - not a scumtell like you're pushing it to be.
Hmm...that's more chat based where you typically play with a lot of the same people right?
It seems to me that if it's "completely opinion", then my opinion would be as valid as the next person's. So, you have a problem with my opinion being that it's scummy, when I've explained my opinion and cited cases where others think it's scummy? It looks like you're really struggling to find my opinion scummy, when you yourself admit that opinions on it vary.
Guess it's time to reread Sir Karn for myself rather than base my read of him on the Kank lynch I was expecting.
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Yeah- it's a chat interface but it's a much larger player base than here.
Yes.
But, no I don't have a reason to doubt that his power is legitimate or that its a town power.
Expect more replies and follow-ups from me later tonight.
Yes, I'm caught up. And yes, I do. Kosa was a scum read of duplicitys. He was also a scum read of confirmed town; therefore, I'm going to put extra thought into reading both of you.
He's someone that I forget about until he posts, and besides that I read this game in a little over 24 hours. I haven't been able to fully digest it.
See this is dangerous because you're assuming causality that doesn't apply to you. Your behavior actually works against town interests, and I'm not seeing any reason to believe you have enough clout in this game to be the catalyst for people getting looked at.
I'm saying: Why do you see it as a scumtell?
You cite opinions that match yours and say that you're right because those experienced players you cited agreed.
The thing is, I could just as easily cite (and already did one) experienced players who say the exact opposite.
So if we're adding up both opinions, that leads me to believe that townhunting is not a tell at all, therefore null.
The fact that you went back and handpicked some people who agreed with you and ignored those experienced players who didn't agree isn't helping your case at all.
---
I still have to convince other people that you're scum. And the fact that you switched your vote to me on OMGUS is part of that.
Also, something I just said:
And something I've said in a past game too:
It's like you haven't even been reading my posts lately.
Well, the archae one would be odd to do as if he ever flipped scum he'd have drawn a link there for no reason.
The thing with rodemy though is that he is so new it does no good. New players are notorious for being paranoid of someone defending them hard because jut like rodemy did, they tend to think they're being setup. Which rodemy did in the case of void. You have to be really careful white knighting newbies for that purpose, and duplicity is experienced enough to know that.
I wasn't using the silly reference to refer to duplicity specifically, but in general it's silly to do as scum. Although I do believe its something that he wouldn't do as scum because he just cares about his scum games less.
I explained why I see it as a scumtell. I then stated that it's an opinion I acquired from reading games when I was relatively new. You then asked me to cite examples of experienced players who agree with me. The fact that you're trying to twist that into saying I'm "handpicking" when you were the one that requested it just looks terrible.
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Well I'm just happy that duplicity is getting better at reading newbies as he used to mistake newb tells for scum tells.
As far as my initial reads: let me explain something to you so maybe you can put this in perspective. I literally just moved across the country and started a new job. I'm playing in 3 games at another site and modding another. I had no intention of signing up at a new site and taking on a new game, let alone one with more than 800 rather long posts. I did this as a favor to duplicity because he didn't want his slot getting modkilled and messing up the game. Even with everything I have to do and was responsible for already, I made time to read this entire game in a little over 24 hours after replacing in. The mod gave an extension for a reason. There is no expectation to get a game read in a day after replacing in.
And I'm not trying to toot my own horn here or ate, but if you're going to criticize what I've contributed, you're darn well going to recognize that what I have done is more than expected. As I said when I replaced in, I get my best reads from interacting with people. My first priority was to finish reading the game so that I could have time to interact with people and look back at things after getting caught up with the gamestate.
So, no I haven't analyzed wagons nor do I have reads on everyone, not even ones I feel really great about. Has anyone else analyzed any wagons? I read the game in a little over a day, I need to let it settle and reread through things. This should not be hard to understand.
And I'm not the only one who can vouch for duplicity. He gave you two links to games, you can meta him and find that this is his playstyle.
I see this as a Null tell Archae. This would be her first game here. she doesn't know the setups types or the hate on this site for scum double voters. The same reason why rodemy was going crazy about me being 'confirmed town' was null.
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