Anyone want to offer any play advice for me? I'm pretty happy with my my investigation choices, especially considering copping Arian on N2 instead of N1 worked out a lot better for the team.
I still wanted to strangle you for even talking about the idea that I might be the jailer in-thread, for what it's worth.
Really need to keep thoughts like that to yourself, because it forces the person to react to what you say, which only helps the scum team. Not that you really cared if things helped the scum team, I suppose, given survivor, but yeah.
As you noted, I was survivor, but it was a good lesson to learn anyway. Heck, if you look at the last post I made before I died, I asked for your permission to share info
I had a blast this game. Thanks to everyone for making it so fun.
I'm looking for some feedback/criticism regarding my town game. I know that the beginning portion of my play was really lolzy, but I thought that I was doing a pretty good job at being pro-town after I came out with my real role.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I'm a compulsive liar no matter what team I play on, but I'm trying to get better about it."
Never fakeclaim doctor as town again.
Never fakeclaim doctor as town again.
Never fakeclaim doctor as town again.
Never fakeclaim doctor as town again.
Town gambits should only be attempted if you understand completely what the potential fallout is, and are able to mitigate any damage that could be caused.
A full doctor in this game absolutely would have cc'd you for the 1 for 1 trade, and we'd have lost both the Doc, and the JoaT. Fortunately, we had a jailer instead, and I was willing to entertain the idea of Doc + Jailer initiallly, and then, well. Hawk decided to claim my role, and yeah.
I was convinced AE was town at that point, because of the 'Survivor can't win if there's mafia in the mason triad' logic. So there had to be scum elsewhere, and between claim analysis and behavior, the scum almost had to be one of Zinger, TCM or Generic (with Taredas being an outlying possibility).
Zinger was by far the worst of that cluster behaviorally, and I still stand by that being the correct lynch, from a probability perspective. We'd have won this game a little quicker by just lynching AE, sure, but based on what we knew, I still stand by Zinger/TCM dying being the correct course of action.
That's pretty arguable. AE was *by far* more likely to be scum than Zinger, who was very strongly town after replacing in. TCM was a closer call, but town TCM actually tells us nothing about AE's alignment (though scum TCM would have almost equaled scum AE). Obviously, we were in a PoE position with strong town abilities where it didn't matter which order we went in, but with AE being very likely scum, it was more of a danger to leave him alive after he had just gained an unknown ability.
Also, as I mentioned before, I firmly believe that Survivor actually has a better chance of winning if there's scum in the masonry than if there isn't (chances are poor either way, though).
Anyway, I know I'm faulting you on bad reads, but I admit you read Kosa better than I did.
I think that's accurate, if there wasn't an ability to be gained for being the last man standing in the mason triad.
That's the reason I was so strongly opposed to the concept of town/survivor/mafia - because the mafia have a way to guarantee that their guy gets the last man standing reward, which means the survivor cannot win, unless the mafia dude in the trio is outed on...basically D1.
Anyone want to offer any play advice for me? I'm pretty happy with my my investigation choices, especially considering copping Arian on N2 instead of N1 worked out a lot better for the team.
I think your play was pretty solid, though I feel your reveal of the Arian result was too hasty. (Also your reveal of the DYH result.)
This might just be personal preference, but if you're planning to claim a result as cop, I feel you should be more patient and give your targets more time unaware, while you closely scrutinize everything they do to see if they give away their teammates.
It would have been great for me if you didn't say anything, but you saw it as a potential chance to out lying scum, so I think that your actions were justified.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I'm a compulsive liar no matter what team I play on, but I'm trying to get better about it."
Anyone want to offer any play advice for me? I'm pretty happy with my my investigation choices, especially considering copping Arian on N2 instead of N1 worked out a lot better for the team.
I think your play was pretty solid, though I feel your reveal of the Arian result was too hasty. (Also your reveal of the DYH result.)
This might just be personal preference, but if you're planning to claim a result as cop, I feel you should be more patient and give your targets more time unaware, while you closely scrutinize everything they do to see if they give away their teammates.
My mindset when I chose to out Arian was that, based on his early D3 behavior (coming out of the gates gunning for LnG), AE was highly likely to be scum as well. There was no way he could have been bussing because scum wouldn't have readily given up an extra ability. If that mindset was flawed, let me know why/how.
Honestly, I didn't think the DYH result really mattered at that point. I had committed myself to not revealing any future Innocent results solely to avoid buying a Godfather time, but when Rhand outed AE it pretty much won the game.
I think that's accurate, if there wasn't an ability to be gained for being the last man standing in the mason triad.
That's the reason I was so strongly opposed to the concept of town/survivor/mafia - because the mafia have a way to guarantee that their guy gets the last man standing reward, which means the survivor cannot win, unless the mafia dude in the trio is outed on...basically D1.
I can accept that. I just feel like T/T/S and T/S/M are *both* very unfair for the Survivor, so arguing that a particular one *must* be true for balance reasons is flawed.
Hard to say - the combo of the track 1-shot, your watch and my jail is what really locked the game down, and he may not have revealed that without having to claim.
But it's a case of results vs. process, and I don't know if there is a definitive answer on what the right call was - if you'd stayed silent, you'd have either assumed that:
A) Hans was scum
B) He was a doc that couldn't self-protect
Still maintain that the thing where you pointed at your custom title was incredibly awkward and self-aware. I shouldn't have let my foot off your throat on that.
I think you let it off because AE took the lead from you on my wagon. But yes, I was trying to emulate my town self and I concur I pushed it a bit. I was REALLY excited about FINALLY being scum, after 10 games or something.
----
Also, I just noticed that my role PM didn't state I was bulletproof, unlike the one Void just posted ITT. Why have you changed it, Void? Like, which one is the "real" one?
You were not BulletProof. The ending PM is a typo.
Sorry about killing you, LnGrrrR :(. Like I said in thread, I think I would have killed AE if I'd given it literally another minute or two of consideration. There was no way you were lying about Neutral.
Sorry about killing you, LnGrrrR :(. Like I said in thread, I think I would have killed AE if I'd given it literally another minute or two of consideration. There was no way you were lying about Neutral.
It's cool; I think I could have made it to endgame if you hadn't, but there is a likely chance that someone would've asked you to use your night shot on me just in case I was an SK or something.
@TCM: I really had AE as scum on behavior. The problem was that the read was mostly gut-based, since AE was smart enough to not leave many scum tells in the thread (while also not leaving any town tells, either). The behavioral case makes sense in my head, but there's not enough evidence in thread that it would convince anyone else, so I didn't bother.
Perhaps, perhaps not. I think the bigger issue was ignoring a guilty verdict was more alarming to me anyway, but that wagon was pure meta. Not behavior, not PoE, meta.
I hope next league game will be more behaviour based.
We pr'ed and modgamed 2 league games to the win now, and i feel i would have a lot more to gain from a judge analysing my behavioural reads.
@Void: What was the design rationale about town/neutral/mafia mason pair?
What about the scum being immune to scum abilities?
As for design: It's how I saw it from the time I changed the original setup to the one everyone saw in the game. There wasn't an issue with any reviewers so I didn't know it would be an issue.
The hidden Mason ability was designed to be a red herring for the Mafia.
The hidden Mason ability was designed to be a red herring for the Mafia.
And what exactly this was expected to accomplish? We shouldn't have been punished for going after the ability, especially when modgaming would already make our lives harder for doing so (as it did).
I may be biased, but in my opinion it was completely unfair to give us an incentive to kill certain players promising a reward to actually deny us one.
This kind of misleading belongs to bastardish games, and when it happens on a normal it spoils the fun of the people that believed in it.
@TCM: I really had AE as scum on behavior. The problem was that the read was mostly gut-based, since AE was smart enough to not leave many scum tells in the thread (while also not leaving any town tells, either). The behavioral case makes sense in my head, but there's not enough evidence in thread that it would convince anyone else, so I didn't bother.
Perhaps, perhaps not. I think the bigger issue was ignoring a guilty verdict was more alarming to me anyway, but that wagon was pure meta. Not behavior, not PoE, meta.
No, it wasn't just meta.
1) We had a known scum (Arian) pushing to lynch LnG instead of Voxx (whom he claimed to have incriminating information on). Simple analysis of his motive indicates it's very likely that he is doing so in order to power up his teammate.
2) AE's interactions with Hawk on D1 suggested that he was scum.
3) AE's lack of scum hunting and lack of town tells also suggested that he was scum.
I agree with you that the information we had did not *necessarily* make AE scum, but I don't see how you drew the conclusion that he had to be town.
EDIT: What I'm trying to get at is that those who argued for a town AE were doing so solely based on setup gaming, while ignoring the scum actions and AE's behavior.
I also understand that it seems counter-intuitive to leave a known scum alive, but sometimes that happens when you have known town powers that can neutralize the scum. Obviously it doesn't make sense in a Basic game, but here we were already at PoE with a solid Follow the Cop+Watcher strategy in place - this was made possible by the fact that the scum RB was down, and Voxx/Rhand/dking were all basically cleared.
I think the game would've played out a lot differently if the scum still had their RB, but as it was, the setup *greatly* favored the town with the RB gone.
@Void: I agree with Kosa here - the Mafia did not have an advantage over the town to balance out the red herring.
I never made the argument he was town. I only made the argument his wagon is garbage (although, the set-up made me believe him to be town). Your two points about him were actually quite valid (I didn't go back and re-read him) and would have made a case.
Taking anything Arian said after being revealed scum seems eh as well.
Anyone want to offer any play advice for me? I'm pretty happy with my my investigation choices, especially considering copping Arian on N2 instead of N1 worked out a lot better for the team.
From what I saw here, you're already really solid as town. You had good analysis, made pretty good Cop choices (I can't remember your reasoning for copping Rhand OTOH - if he was a null read for you that goes up to flat-out good cop choices), claimed at the right time for the right reasons, and made yourself obvtown - hell, you have a legitimate case for town MVP (along with Voxx, fade, and DYH).
The hidden Mason ability was designed to be a red herring for the Mafia.
And what exactly this was expected to accomplish? We shouldn't have been punished for going after the ability, especially when modgaming would already make our lives harder for doing so (as it did).
I may be biased, but in my opinion it was completely unfair to give us an incentive to kill certain players promising a reward to actually deny us one.
This kind of misleading belongs to bastardish games, and when it happens on a normal it spoils the fun of the people that believed in it.
It's actually worse than that - from a balance standpoint, the scum were incentivized to kill a player who was functionally an unrecruitable Mafia Spy in the late game, then told that there was no reward after all (because Survivor votes with scum at endgame). Putting a survivor in a 3-man Neighbor group is questionable enough (because town *will* assume, usually rightly, that a 3-man neighbor group has scum) - the way it was handled here was bastard as hell and IMO way over the line for a League game.
The game was fine aside from that issue - the scum had a fair amount of power to offset their relative lack of numbers (Godfather, Roleblocker, Follower, Neighbor). Take the Survivor out of the neighbors and give AE a different power for being the last neighbor (I'd have given him a 1-shot daykill, personally) and this setup looks *much* more balanced.
(Aside: This game is an object lesson in the fundamental flaw with the Mafia Roleblocker - it's swingy as hell, and I'm not sure that the strategic aspects of the role [scum should NEVER bus their Roleblocker unless absolutely necessary, doing so here was a major error on the scumteam's part] outweigh the swing. FHF with its backup roleblocker was a much better design in that respect, as was Hobbit making the roleblock factional.)
(Severily underpowered) Town mislynched only twice, correctly lynched 4 scum, and lost. Rofl.
All the 'feeling good' mood and proudness I had over my first scum game, about fairly losing, has completely dissipated in a blink and gave place to a depressive, bitter sense of disappointment.
... Okay, the joke's gone on long enough.
There are no werewolves. I'm town.
...
[GLaDOSvoice]I hope you die a horrible death. It fits the horrible person you are.[/GLaDOSvoice]
Welcome to the club! You're the first MTGS member of a group with a fine tradition over on 'Scum. Your T-shirt will arrive in the mail in six to eight weeks.
I do think it was more unfair to the survivor than being a survivor is in the first place, and that probably shouldn't happen in League games.
I actually don't have a problem with the ability last received being immunity to mafia abilities - denying that to the two town is valid, even if unexciting.
Bussing the roleblocker was bad, the gambit was bad because it'd blow up two of you when it backfired (and it was going to backfire at some point). You needed Arian to endgame to win, and his RL causing early inactivity doomed him, likely. Unfortunate, but have to take that into account.
Overall was a fun game, and I'm reasonably happy with my play - had some bad reads, but I think the logic behind them was fine, just wasn't right in this case.
Anyone want to offer any play advice for me? I'm pretty happy with my my investigation choices, especially considering copping Arian on N2 instead of N1 worked out a lot better for the team.
From what I saw here, you're already really solid as town. You had good analysis, made pretty good Cop choices (I can't remember your reasoning for copping Rhand OTOH - if he was a null read for you that goes up to flat-out good cop choices), claimed at the right time for the right reasons, and made yourself obvtown - hell, you have a legitimate case for town MVP (along with Voxx, fade, and DYH).
Here is the reasoning behind each of my cop choices:
N1 - Rhand: I was looking at three different players who I was either null on or paranoid about. One or two experienced players mentioned in thread that they did not believe he was playing his town game. Also considered copping: Arian and AE.
N2 - Arian: I had actually considered copping him on N1. Lurking; immediate jump off Hans's wagon (along with Hawk); a habit of firing off a shot or two at players (myself, TCM, Misting) and immediately dropping the subject when there was no traction; and a lot of asking Player X what they thought of Player Y (I realize a lot of players seem to do this to a degree, but I find it scummy in general). Also considered copping: Fadeblue
N3 - DYH: Pure flavor gaming based on possibility of 5-man scum team. To me, Big Show honestly makes more sense flavor-wise as Mafia than Town. Also considered copping: Taredas
N4 - Generic: Doubt any explanation is needed. Also considered copping: No one
N5 - Voxxicus: Exact same as DYH, just replace Big Show with Kevin Nash. Also considered copping: Void, which apparently would have resulted in super double-secret day kill.
As you noted, I was survivor, but it was a good lesson to learn anyway. Heck, if you look at the last post I made before I died, I asked for your permission to share info
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
I'm looking for some feedback/criticism regarding my town game. I know that the beginning portion of my play was really lolzy, but I thought that I was doing a pretty good job at being pro-town after I came out with my real role.
Previous Mafia Experience:
Mafia aligned: 2/0 -100%
Town aligned: 4/3 - 57%
Never fakeclaim doctor as town again.
Never fakeclaim doctor as town again.
Never fakeclaim doctor as town again.
Town gambits should only be attempted if you understand completely what the potential fallout is, and are able to mitigate any damage that could be caused.
A full doctor in this game absolutely would have cc'd you for the 1 for 1 trade, and we'd have lost both the Doc, and the JoaT. Fortunately, we had a jailer instead, and I was willing to entertain the idea of Doc + Jailer initiallly, and then, well. Hawk decided to claim my role, and yeah.
That's pretty arguable. AE was *by far* more likely to be scum than Zinger, who was very strongly town after replacing in. TCM was a closer call, but town TCM actually tells us nothing about AE's alignment (though scum TCM would have almost equaled scum AE). Obviously, we were in a PoE position with strong town abilities where it didn't matter which order we went in, but with AE being very likely scum, it was more of a danger to leave him alive after he had just gained an unknown ability.
Also, as I mentioned before, I firmly believe that Survivor actually has a better chance of winning if there's scum in the masonry than if there isn't (chances are poor either way, though).
Anyway, I know I'm faulting you on bad reads, but I admit you read Kosa better than I did.
I think that's accurate, if there wasn't an ability to be gained for being the last man standing in the mason triad.
That's the reason I was so strongly opposed to the concept of town/survivor/mafia - because the mafia have a way to guarantee that their guy gets the last man standing reward, which means the survivor cannot win, unless the mafia dude in the trio is outed on...basically D1.
Outdated Mafia Stats
I think your play was pretty solid, though I feel your reveal of the Arian result was too hasty. (Also your reveal of the DYH result.)
This might just be personal preference, but if you're planning to claim a result as cop, I feel you should be more patient and give your targets more time unaware, while you closely scrutinize everything they do to see if they give away their teammates.
Previous Mafia Experience:
Mafia aligned: 2/0 -100%
Town aligned: 4/3 - 57%
My mindset when I chose to out Arian was that, based on his early D3 behavior (coming out of the gates gunning for LnG), AE was highly likely to be scum as well. There was no way he could have been bussing because scum wouldn't have readily given up an extra ability. If that mindset was flawed, let me know why/how.
Honestly, I didn't think the DYH result really mattered at that point. I had committed myself to not revealing any future Innocent results solely to avoid buying a Godfather time, but when Rhand outed AE it pretty much won the game.
I can accept that. I just feel like T/T/S and T/S/M are *both* very unfair for the Survivor, so arguing that a particular one *must* be true for balance reasons is flawed.
But it's a case of results vs. process, and I don't know if there is a definitive answer on what the right call was - if you'd stayed silent, you'd have either assumed that:
A) Hans was scum
B) He was a doc that couldn't self-protect
And there'd have been a lot of indecision.
TL;DR - dunno lol
You were not BulletProof. The ending PM is a typo.
Not a lot to comment on. Town played well. The mason gamble appeared to be the downfall of the scum team but one that could have positioned them well.
Good game everyone.
It's cool; I think I could have made it to endgame if you hadn't, but there is a likely chance that someone would've asked you to use your night shot on me just in case I was an SK or something.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Thanks EtR. I tried to make your death worthwhile
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Perhaps, perhaps not. I think the bigger issue was ignoring a guilty verdict was more alarming to me anyway, but that wagon was pure meta. Not behavior, not PoE, meta.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
We pr'ed and modgamed 2 league games to the win now, and i feel i would have a lot more to gain from a judge analysing my behavioural reads.
And the original post: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10481015&postcount=1105
Also, I'm sad someone stopped the Wolfpack joke before the endgame scene.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
I hope it is as well-designed as my sig
Game started on: 6/23/13 @ 9:42AM PST
Game ended on: 8/23/13 @8:50AM PST
Only 52 minutes away from the game being exactly 2 months long. It's funny to me maybe not to others.
What about the scum being immune to scum abilities?
As for design: It's how I saw it from the time I changed the original setup to the one everyone saw in the game. There wasn't an issue with any reviewers so I didn't know it would be an issue.
The hidden Mason ability was designed to be a red herring for the Mafia.
And what exactly this was expected to accomplish? We shouldn't have been punished for going after the ability, especially when modgaming would already make our lives harder for doing so (as it did).
I may be biased, but in my opinion it was completely unfair to give us an incentive to kill certain players promising a reward to actually deny us one.
This kind of misleading belongs to bastardish games, and when it happens on a normal it spoils the fun of the people that believed in it.
No, it wasn't just meta.
1) We had a known scum (Arian) pushing to lynch LnG instead of Voxx (whom he claimed to have incriminating information on). Simple analysis of his motive indicates it's very likely that he is doing so in order to power up his teammate.
2) AE's interactions with Hawk on D1 suggested that he was scum.
3) AE's lack of scum hunting and lack of town tells also suggested that he was scum.
I agree with you that the information we had did not *necessarily* make AE scum, but I don't see how you drew the conclusion that he had to be town.
EDIT: What I'm trying to get at is that those who argued for a town AE were doing so solely based on setup gaming, while ignoring the scum actions and AE's behavior.
I also understand that it seems counter-intuitive to leave a known scum alive, but sometimes that happens when you have known town powers that can neutralize the scum. Obviously it doesn't make sense in a Basic game, but here we were already at PoE with a solid Follow the Cop+Watcher strategy in place - this was made possible by the fact that the scum RB was down, and Voxx/Rhand/dking were all basically cleared.
I think the game would've played out a lot differently if the scum still had their RB, but as it was, the setup *greatly* favored the town with the RB gone.
@Void: I agree with Kosa here - the Mafia did not have an advantage over the town to balance out the red herring.
I never made the argument he was town. I only made the argument his wagon is garbage (although, the set-up made me believe him to be town). Your two points about him were actually quite valid (I didn't go back and re-read him) and would have made a case.
Taking anything Arian said after being revealed scum seems eh as well.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
I was going to keep it going for a bit longer, but Kosa's post here and [REDACTED] convinced me that coming clean early was the better plan.
---
From what I saw here, you're already really solid as town. You had good analysis, made pretty good Cop choices (I can't remember your reasoning for copping Rhand OTOH - if he was a null read for you that goes up to flat-out good cop choices), claimed at the right time for the right reasons, and made yourself obvtown - hell, you have a legitimate case for town MVP (along with Voxx, fade, and DYH).
---
It's actually worse than that - from a balance standpoint, the scum were incentivized to kill a player who was functionally an unrecruitable Mafia Spy in the late game, then told that there was no reward after all (because Survivor votes with scum at endgame). Putting a survivor in a 3-man Neighbor group is questionable enough (because town *will* assume, usually rightly, that a 3-man neighbor group has scum) - the way it was handled here was bastard as hell and IMO way over the line for a League game.
The game was fine aside from that issue - the scum had a fair amount of power to offset their relative lack of numbers (Godfather, Roleblocker, Follower, Neighbor). Take the Survivor out of the neighbors and give AE a different power for being the last neighbor (I'd have given him a 1-shot daykill, personally) and this setup looks *much* more balanced.
(Aside: This game is an object lesson in the fundamental flaw with the Mafia Roleblocker - it's swingy as hell, and I'm not sure that the strategic aspects of the role [scum should NEVER bus their Roleblocker unless absolutely necessary, doing so here was a major error on the scumteam's part] outweigh the swing. FHF with its backup roleblocker was a much better design in that respect, as was Hobbit making the roleblock factional.)
---
EDIT:
Welcome to the club! You're the first MTGS member of a group with a fine tradition over on 'Scum. Your T-shirt will arrive in the mail in six to eight weeks.
Okay, the last part isn't true.
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
I do think it was more unfair to the survivor than being a survivor is in the first place, and that probably shouldn't happen in League games.
I actually don't have a problem with the ability last received being immunity to mafia abilities - denying that to the two town is valid, even if unexciting.
Bussing the roleblocker was bad, the gambit was bad because it'd blow up two of you when it backfired (and it was going to backfire at some point). You needed Arian to endgame to win, and his RL causing early inactivity doomed him, likely. Unfortunate, but have to take that into account.
Overall was a fun game, and I'm reasonably happy with my play - had some bad reads, but I think the logic behind them was fine, just wasn't right in this case.
Here is the reasoning behind each of my cop choices:
N1 - Rhand: I was looking at three different players who I was either null on or paranoid about. One or two experienced players mentioned in thread that they did not believe he was playing his town game. Also considered copping: Arian and AE.
N2 - Arian: I had actually considered copping him on N1. Lurking; immediate jump off Hans's wagon (along with Hawk); a habit of firing off a shot or two at players (myself, TCM, Misting) and immediately dropping the subject when there was no traction; and a lot of asking Player X what they thought of Player Y (I realize a lot of players seem to do this to a degree, but I find it scummy in general). Also considered copping: Fadeblue
N3 - DYH: Pure flavor gaming based on possibility of 5-man scum team. To me, Big Show honestly makes more sense flavor-wise as Mafia than Town. Also considered copping: Taredas
N4 - Generic: Doubt any explanation is needed. Also considered copping: No one
N5 - Voxxicus: Exact same as DYH, just replace Big Show with Kevin Nash. Also considered copping: Void, which apparently would have resulted in super double-secret day kill.
It's a lesson learned on my behalf and I will be more cautious in the future should I repeat similar Roles.
@dkingsland:
It was a joke my good buddy. I would not have Modkilled for that... I think.