You want people lynched regardless of alignment? You're not town.
You are naïve.
If pinkys is scum (which she most likely is), we will have just advanced the town win condition.
If pinkys is town, an example needs to be made of her so this sort of childish behavior ceases.
I see that Cyan agrees with me who agrees with him.
I find it hard to straight out lynch players to teach them lessons. That's bordering on bad play itself. In regards to Pinky, there's nothing here that points to bad play by a townie. She knows she's going down and out of spite and to help her team she takes Cyan with her. This is not bad play it's scum play. What a townie being mislynched would have done is claimed the artifact and put to a discussion who to take with them. I can't see leaving her alive to mislead the town in the coming days.
Well it isn't eexactly moot because of the 'regardless of alignment part'.
But unvote. I did overreact because my own mindset is so different.
I wouldn't call it overreacting regarding Puppet. He hasn't exactly been oozing townieness(if thats even a word but it's to the point). I agree with your mindset but you have to look at the situation.
Are you kidding me Wessel???? What a bunch of nonsense. PLUS.... This is in the link also which you gloss over. FOS.
Beloved Princess Alias:
Princess
Alignment:
Pro-town
Role type:
Passive
Negative Utility
Choice:
None
A Beloved Princess is a player who, upon death, causes the next Day phase to be skipped.
Pinkys link was to http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Princess not Beloved Princess, which is what the mafiascum wiki article actually is. That means that pinky searched for Princess (probably the actual name of her role) and not Beloved Princess. Also no article at mafiascum links to 'Princess', they only link to 'Beloved Princess'. Therefore, pinky did not reach the page through another page (like when she would have looked through a list of good roles to falseclaim), but by directly searching for Princess, very likely indicative that it really is her role.
Now this might all be part of pinkys masterplan hoping that one person would find this out, but to me it gives me enough pause not to want to lynch her.
You have concocted a potent brew of WIFOM and mod-gaming. Who would drink that sludge when we have delicious cake courtesy of Occam's Razor?
That is laughably convoluted logic. Her ability should have been explained in her role PM, so..why did she need to link anything? She couldn't type out 'If I get lynched the next day period gets skipped'? Most likely she was searching the wiki for false claims and this is what she came up with.
Pre-Post Edit:
Sarnath'd by multiple people. Oh well.
I'm starting to wonder about Wessel now also. I can't see a townie putting himself this much in the spotlight to defend an unknown quantity. Wessel should be looked at next(regardless of Pinky's alignment).
I am tired today and I should be making a bigger post tomorrow. Just want to let you guys know that my role doesn't stop one-shot abilities, sadly, so I won't be able to break it.
Her play is extremely different from what I've seen her. As others already pointed out, she usually comes in and jumps on scummy people and doesn't let go. As you can see, in her second post of Super Mario World, she grabs someone right off the bat.
I'd want to lynch pinky for that as well, except that as far as I can recall, every single time something like this has happened it's been a town player shooting - reference Asphodel Meadows, Tales of the Fantastic, and at least one other which I can't remember of the top of my head.
Mmh. pinky needs to be resolved at some point, and there's very little redeeming in her behaviour, but I'm not quite seeing the benefit in ending the day so fast. I also think there are scummier individuals that need to be highlighted.
@pinky: Clarification ASAP. Does your role trigger on any death, or only on lynch? Also, see below - I have a number of questions I want you to answer.
1. Why is Taredas 'wanting to use his artifact day 1 and withholding information' a +?
2. Why is Cyan 'fishing Seppel' a -, but Taredas fishing Seppel a null?
3. Why do you seem to be giving out blanket +s to anyone voting Proph/Emo, even if they do so in what you imply is a less than convincing manner? Especially re: Wessel.
4. What do you think of Taredas defending Proph, hm?
1. Taredas's claim is null. I liked that he voted pinkys.
2. Cyan's fishing was much more self-conscious. Also, Taredas elaborated on pinkys's meta, which shows that he is able to back up his accusations. The fishing, when paired with the meta evidence, end up being a wash.
3. I liked Wessel's reads, though I didn't like his play. He could be scum going after soft targets, but it is more likely that he is overly cautious town.
4. Proph completely crumpled after Cyan's vote, and all pressure disappeared with the claim. Taredas's reaction reads as genuine, and I'm willing to trust his instincts.
1. So basically you're saying you gave him a + just for the extremely meta vote on pinky? For that matter, now that I look at it, you gave pinky a - for a 'silly RVS post'. Why? 2. ...what? 'Self-conscious'? I assume you're talking about the whole 'give me some latitude' line, but you're calling that more 'self-conscious' than Taredas asking a more directly fishing question in addition to wanting Seppel to answer Cyan's question, capped off with a 'I have reasons for asking about both'? 3. ....really. Let's take a look at your 'game state' again and see what you had to say about Wessel...
#4-6: Seppel confirms himself as town due to poor moderating. +++
#9: pinkys makes a silly RVS post. -
#10: Proph jumps on pinkys but does not vote. Town-claims. --
#12: Taredas wants to use his artifact Day One but withholds further information. Votes pinkys. +
#13: Cyan is 70% sure that AE is scum. -
#14: Proph questions Taredas and Cyan for doing the same thing he did in #10. -
#15: Seppel breadcrumbs his role/artifact combo.
#16: Cyan fishes Seppel. -
#17: Taredas elaborates on pinkys's meta. Fishes Seppel.
#18-19: Proph weakly detracts pinkys's attackers. Bemoans end of RVS. -
#21: Vox agrees with me who agrees with Voxxicus. +
#22: Proph fence-sits on RVS issue. -
#24: dC is dC. /barns Voxxicus.
#25&27: AG claims miller or some such. Pokes at Proph. +
#26&28: Proph continues to be defensive re: RVS. -
#30-31: Caex demonstrates that he failed to read the OP. +
#33: Rhand pokes at Proph. +
#34: Proph continues to weakly detract pinkys's attackers. Fence-sits on rationale for doing so. -
#35: Emo detracts breadcrumbers. Defends Proph for weak reasons. --
#36-37: Proph distances from Emo.
#38: AG votes Emo. +
#39-42: Emo argues semantics with Proph.
#43: Rhand questions Proph-Emo interplay. +
#45: Cyan fence-sits re: Proph. -
#47: Proph seems to be implying that his bad play is due to mounting pressure. (This is noteworthy because the first time I read this, I thought he was claiming that he is currently playing better than usual, when a careful reread indicates that this is definitely not the case.)
#49: Rhand does his research and votes Proph. + #50: Wessel pokes at Caex & Cyan. (Caex responds. Cyan does not.) +
#51: I demand political asylum.
#52-53: pinkys references self-meta. Fencesits re: Proph-Emo interplay. -
#54: Rhand defends vote. +
#55: Seppel entertains me.
#57-58&60&63&65: Proph detracts Rhand's vote without defending himself. Distances from and fence-sits re: pinkys. Wants to be voted for "a legit reason." -
#59&62&64: Rhand continues to pressure Proph. +
#61: Seppel votes Proph. + #66: Wessel has good reads but fence-sits on them. Pokes at Proph. +
#68: AG questions Rhand re: Proph-Emo interplay. +
#71: fade pokes at Proph, Rhand, & Caex. +
#75: Seppel pokes at Proph. +
#76: I vote Proph.
#77-78: Proph OMGUS's me. -
#79: Emo /barns Proph. -
#80: pinkys displays an inconsistent stance re: Seppel's vote vs. my vote. -
#81: Rhand calls out pinkys's inconsistency. +
#82-83: pinkys votes fade for weak reasons. Offers weak defense to inconsistency. -
#84: Seppel pokes at pinkys & Emo. + #85: Wessel /barns Seppel. +
#86: Cyan votes Proph. Uses noteworthy word "telling," which actually means nothing. Pokes at pinkys. -
#87: fade engages pinkys. Votes Emo. +
#88: AE jumps on Proph but does not vote. Engages Cyan & Wessel re: Cyan. FoS's me. +
#89: Proph votes AE for unknown "obvious" reason. -
...you gave Wessel a + three separate times, almost every time you mention him; once for 'poking at Cyan and Caex', who you have at a - and ++ respectively... that seems rather inconsistent with the way you hand out +s like candy for poking at pinky, isn't it? Once for the abovementioned 'good reads but fencesitting' and 'poking at Proph', which is unconvincing, to say the least... and once for... /barning Seppel? And at the end of it all you still only have him at a single +. Your metric seems rather arcane. 4. And here we have a complete and utter lie, because all pressure on Proph did not 'vanish with the claim'. People were quite ready to lynch Proph after his vanilla town claim, until some people, of which Taredas was one of the most strident, decided to defend him.
Your 'game state' is full of loaded language, and reads more like a list made to arrive at certain predetermined conclusions rather than an honest attempt at figuring out the game - like how, upon looking at why you had Cyan at a -, you give out blanket +s to anyone 'poking at' pinky or Proph... except Cyan, who you give -s to for nearly anything and everything.
Rhand (Chuck Norris) - leaning town
Wessel (David Bowie) - town
Fadeblue (Darkwing Duck) - town
Prophylaxis (TripleX) - town
Cyan (Smoke Monster) - scum
Taredas (Rika Furude) - tunneled town
EtR (Tyrion Lannister) - leaning scum ThePuppetMaster (Puppet Master) - scum
Archmage Eternal (Wolverine) - town
pinkys_brain (Wonder Woman) - town Emocakes (The Doctor) - null
desCoures (Makishima Shougo) - null
Atheist God (Bracken) - null
Voxxicus (James Bond) - town Caex Kothar (Garrus Vakarian) - scum
Seppel (Power Ranger Doppelganger) - scum
Explain all of the above bolded, please. Specifically, I want to know:
1. Your exact reasons for having EtR 'leaning scum', given that I don't believe I've seen a word from you about him.
2. Why you have Emocakes as 'null' when you've been asking various people why Emocakes is 'so scummy to them'.
3. Why you have Caex as scum at all.
Just to get a few points on why Cyan is scum. He took a vote I placed as OMGUS.
OMGUS is when a player votes on someone that has been voted on. Cyan never voted and to think that I didn't react to Tar, Proph or Seppel but I reacted because of the word possible is a stretch to be seen.
I explained my use of the word Boob, which he doesn't comment about, and I explained that Proph was town. His vote is pretty much OMGUS in post 158.
Yes, we kind of know what OMGUS is. This still isn't terribly convincing.
Hm. 15 posts into the game, and Seppel is solidly town.
That reads genuine.
Vote: Prophylaxis
Why do you care if RVS is ended so early?
Super aggressive vote, first on the wagon and for a relatively lackluster reason. In fact, no reason at all - it's a question to Proph, I don't like it.
Uh huh. You 'don't like' a 'super aggressive vote'... that is the first vote on Proph, fresh out of RVS.
Thx Proph, Basic 61 confirmed what I think I might be seeing: you definately don't shy away from putting your first vote on a buddy.
Vote: Prophylaxis
Consider my vote also on Amocekes.
Rhand, did you actually only read one of Prophs games and immediately found this or did you look at multiple games and this was the only example that you found?
Should I take this to mean that you think what he says here about Proph is inaccurate? If so, why?
I think you're scum because Emocakes jumped to your defence and you immediately distanced without acknowledging that.
Are 5 posts apart. In the first one you declare that you are pressuring Proph by voting him in order to determine his alignment, however, in the second post you call him scum because of your perceived distancing. This shows an inconsistent mindset in your reasoning for attacking Proph.
...except that he's already called Proph scum in the very section you quote above, and that the 'during your breaking' is obviously tongue-in-cheek. This is just a bad point.
I didn't say that you are behaving better than you did in SH, Proph. Just differently. The manner in which you responded is certainly telling, though. Vote Proph
I am concerned about Pinkys reaction to Proph, also. I would like to hear definitively as to why she doesn't think Proph is scum.
First, what game are you referencing by SH?
I don't have a problem with this vote as Cyan is using both Proph's responses and Pinky's reaction to draw a reasonable conclusion.
.........errr, the ongoing game which you just got lynched in as scum? I don't believe your memory is that short.
Also, why did you feel the need to elaborate so strongly about you 'not having a problem' with Cyan's vote here?
I like this vote. AE outlined his reasoning and waited on a vote count before applying his vote. Demonstrates a more townmind set by not wanting to put someone at L1 or quicklynched my mistake.
So up to this point I would have to say that I dislike your (Rhand's) vote the least with Voxx's vote coming in second. Speaking of Voxx...
Ohh, I get it. This whole thing is supposed to be a vote analysis of Proph's wagon, despite being rather poorly constructed.
Just one thing, though. It's rather obvious to anyone that's looking at it, really, because you're approaching this whole vote analysis as though Proph is town.
Proph is probably town. Last few posts are extremely genuine.
Only post I actually don't like is the 'What proof do you have that I'm scum' thing.
EtR is scum. Let's lynch him.
Vote: EtR
Here's another bad vote for him.
Oh hey, blatant discrediting of people voting you. Although I'll note you have nothing to say about me... and I have my own theories as to why that is.
I really don't like post 101 - the second paragraph in particular. It's difficult to articulate, but it's just not genuine. He's trying too hard to be the careful townie.
I also really don't like the discrepancy between 'At first I didn't like this wagon' and then him later saying he's not voting for you because you get mislynched as town frequently.
I think you're town, and I think he knows you're town, and is trying to distance himself from the wagon, while not giving overt opposition, either.
In #116, he backpedals off of the discrepancy I noted prior, and it just feels like self-aware scum.
He's not scumhunting, and despite claiming that he thinks you're being pushed as a mislynch by scum, he has no reads on the people on your wagon. If he were town, that'd be where he was looking to try and find scum, rather than the passive 'There haven't been that many posts yet' reasoning.
Let's lynch him.
You sir, were not scum hunting prior to this post which is after my post, so this is a wee bit hypocritical I'd say. The rest of this is a bunch of "I thinks" and assumptions so forgive me for not rebutting.
That's effectively... one of the worst counterpoints ever. It's like saying 'yes, I was scummy. So were you!'
You also seem to be playing aggressively - is that typical of your style?
Why ask this?
Because I've never played with you and I'm trying to understand your style. Why else would I ask it?
It's not a misrep on Rhand, that is how I'm reading his post. That's also why I asked him. If I was trying to paint it a certain way I wouldn't have asked him.
I don't believe that Proph is scum, but his difference in playstyle this game is throwing me off.
After doing a 'vote analysis' of Proph's wagon that sure as heck sounded like it was being done from the viewpoint of Proph being town.
That is laughably convoluted logic. Her ability should have been explained in her role PM, so..why did she need to link anything? She couldn't type out 'If I get lynched the next day period gets skipped'? Most likely she was searching the wiki for false claims and this is what she came up with.
Pre-Post Edit:
Sarnath'd by multiple people. Oh well.
I'm starting to wonder about Wessel now also. I can't see a townie putting himself this much in the spotlight to defend an unknown quantity. Wessel should be looked at next(regardless of Pinky's alignment).
I'm a bit torn on Wessel. After looking through a number of his posts while looking at TPM above, I note he's been kind of defending people most of the game, so it's hardly just a link with pinky.
Mm. Actually, that makes me not like Wessel at all again.
-----------------------------
I'm currently leaning towards leaving pinky until Cyan flips, and lynching either TPM or EtR today. Please do look especially at my points on both of these people above, especially where they both contradict themselves with highly inconsistent behaviour.
Also, please don't end the day over the weekend. I'd like to use my artifact today.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
.....mm. Come to think of it, now that I mention my artifact... that makes me additionally not like pinky's claim. At all.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
@fadeblue: Yea, I just find it unlikely that she would have acted this way as scum because she was in no way on her way to the gallows at that point. Then again, I just find it unlikely that someone would act this way, period. I've never played with pinky (as far as I remember?), so I'm hesitant to call it. Gut says reckless town though. I first want to see her reaction to all this. Also Proph's reaction (because possible buddy), and Seppel's insight (because experienced).
I think pinky's action makes perfectly good sense if she's scum who realized what my artifact is (it's not exactly like I've been trying to keep that quiet, given the restriction on it pushes me towards using it sooner rather than later) and that I was likely to use it on her in the near future.
That's doubly true if farside and Proph are scumpartners - IIRC farside knows my views on vigs (most importantly, I generally view removing VIs as a Vig responsibility because that helps counteract the usual "scum kill strong analysts" plan and deals with players who might be town playing in an antitown manner without using a lynch on it).
Also, it's entirely possible that pinky realized that she was going down anyways and just decided to take down the player she considered the strongest town analyst with her - I've pulled that one before myself as scum.
@Wessel: I don't think it's necessarily that she had that route planned from the start. She may have just found herself being attacked by Cyan (one of the most antagonistic players) and thought it was a good opportunity to shoot.
Don't forget that farside has 'Scum experience, and knows my playstyle - so she knew that TWO extremely antagonistic players were both gunning for her.
(To answer ETR's question from earlier: I'm very aggressive, especially as town - and that's even after toning it down from the last time I played with farside. Redux 2 is a good example, albeit one where I was flightier D1 than usual due to cases being ignored.)
@Rhand: Ok so you're basically barning me. Tell me, what does it tell you about pinky's alignment that she did not share her artifact with us before using it, seeing as it was a free extra lynch, basically?
If Cyan flips scum in 2 days, Pinky is town. If Cyan flips town, we lynch Pinky.
Your question is pointless.
This post is godawful, especially in the unlikely but possible event that both Pinky and Cyan are town.
@Wessel: I don't think it's necessarily that she had that route planned from the start. She may have just found herself being attacked by Cyan (one of the most antagonistic players) and thought it was a good opportunity to shoot.
Actually, @pinky: Why do you think Tar is tunneled town but Cyan is scum?
FB: Tar picked up on something he saw me do a long time ago. His actions from the start was an Ahaha moment. He continued that attack based on it and he mentioned some meta I'm aware of that made me smile. He in short did his research.
Cyan on the other hand, makes an off hand comment and thinks because I reacted I am scum. He did not take into consideration all the attacks I have endured this game, also when he OMGUS against me his vote and actions where scummy. It was one vote against him and he reacted with WIFOM accusations about behavior I didn't not exibit and meaninless flinging comments. The fact he thought he was about to die and thought waving his claim would matter. If a player that is town is about to die the first things is to spill who you think is scum and if necessary (haven't had time to check the OP) claim. I don't recall if this game is non-reveal, if it is a reveal roles and alignement game, what is the point of waving a role in people's faces like it's important?
Onto other news.
Why I link Seppel with Cyan:
Seppel called Cyan town in a post not too long ago. One of Seppel's scum tells is people that panic under a vote, one vote. That is exactly the reaction I see from Cyan with his OMGUS reaction and WIFOM. There was no other pressure on Cyan, but he flips out and panics. How is that town in Seppel's book of scum tell?
Finally:
mod: I'm going to be on V/LA for the next 3 to 4 days.
Since I'm going to be gone for so long and not to keep this game stagnat since I see votes on me I'm just going to claim now to keep this game flowing.
I'm a Princess.
I saw the mod's note about what that ability is and in a nut shell wiki
Imagine 2 nights though.
That claim is godawful, especially with the fearmongering ("imagine 2 nights though"). Completely unprovable, and the way she's played it is horrible - Beloved Princess is on the short list of abilities you should claim early, like how both Asenion and myself partially claimed early in Redux 2.
Also don't like the attack on Cyan. Farside's "all the attacks I have endured this game" basically boils down to two attacks - my consistent attack, and Cyan's attack (most attention was on Proph/ETR). Additionally, Cyan's reaction is consistent with certain town roles - and if Cyan is what I think he is (given his hints), no way in hell is pinky town.
The only thing that gives me pause is the way Pinky lays down reads and starts pushing a case. But her play up until now is her scumgame, the claim is bad, and the vig is bad (especially after Proph's claim)... and I think I saw her pull something similar in Cyan's Impossible when I was looking at it.
We could leave Pinky until Cyan dies if we want to be sure. But I'm pretty sure she's scum.
Also, If you just vigged me, I will laugh and laugh and laugh. But you should let me know if that is the case, so that I can reveal my role and the town can lynch you anyway.
You think scum has a vig ability! Bawhahahaha!
Man you made me even more happy I used my artifact on you.
A) Read the first post.
B) You were in Mind Screw 3 (and probably more I'm forgetting, but definitely MS3), you know better than to claim that scum don't have bonus kills. Also the umpteen toughguys you see running around here (RR in Cyberspace and the bonus kill in FHF come to mind - no, I wasn't in them, but I did look at the setups).
Pinkys link was to http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Princess not Beloved Princess, which is what the mafiascum wiki article actually is. That means that pinky searched for Princess (probably the actual name of her role) and not Beloved Princess. Also no article at mafiascum links to 'Princess', they only link to 'Beloved Princess'. Therefore, pinky did not reach the page through another page (like when she would have looked through a list of good roles to falseclaim), but by directly searching for Princess, very likely indicative that it really is her role.
Now this might all be part of pinkys masterplan hoping that one person would find this out, but to me it gives me enough pause not to want to lynch her.
As for lynching her for teaching her and others a 'lesson'; I think lynching is not the right way to go simply because I think it very likely it will result in a mislynch. If she hasn't learned her lesson now, she won't learn it by being lynched. Bad play on the hand of pinky should not be reciprocated by further bad play.
As Rhand has said, we'll see again in two Days' time whatever Cyan flipped. That will basically be a 'free investigation', since whatever Cyan flips will shed light on what to do with pinkys_brain. If we take the decision to lynch pinky now, we'll lose that opportunity. I think we can better focus on others now. Pinky's situation will be resolved D3.
Bad logic. Farside's been around awhile on 'Scum, and Beloved Princesses actually show up occasionally on 'Scum (I distinctly recall actually seeing one in a game I played before).
Alternately: I have an artifact that could verify pinky, but that may not be the optimal use for it.
Likewise. Shall we roshambo or sandbag them?
pinkys is most likely scum, but I'd like to see her lynched regardless of her alignment. Players should not be allowed to get away with that sort of behavior without reprecussion.
YOU should not be firing anything right now, for the same reason that Pinky should not have done so. (This doesn't apply to fade, just you.)
Her play is extremely different from what I've seen her. As others already pointed out, she usually comes in and jumps on scummy people and doesn't let go. As you can see, in her second post of Super Mario World, she grabs someone right off the bat.
I am tired today and I should be making a bigger post tomorrow. Just want to let you guys know that my role doesn't stop one-shot abilities, sadly, so I won't be able to break it.
There's one thing that I noticed, though...
@Taredas: Why the strong town read on Emo?
A) That's not a strong town read, just a town read. Emo could be scum, but I doubt that's the case.
B) Why? Emocakes's 151 looks genuine (Emo takes positions, explains reads, asks questions, and generally looks like he's scumhunting), and pinky's question to Emo that I mentioned earlier looks more like scum trying to find something to paint town as scum for than either town asking questions or scum asking things to their buddy.
(Latter doesn't apply if Pinky is town.)
---
PPE:
dC: No point hiding it now - I've had Puppet on the backburner (I hadn't seen enough from him to be sure that he was scum, thought pressure might be counterproductive, and Pinky and ETR were both higher priorities) Hence the and when you asked about my read on him - the indicating "I don't want Puppet to realize what I'm doing just yet" and the indicating that I was watching him closely (IGMEOY).
But yeah, he's scum. Forget slanting the analysis, the single biggest problem with that "game state read" is that *it doesn't actually amount to anything*. It's just summarizing, and the pluses and minuses aren't backed by any reasoning. (One major reason for backburnering was to see if Puppet made another one of those "game state reads" - if he did, he would almost certainly be scum instead of just likely scum. I could see a townie doing that game state read once, but not twice.)
It's completely IIoA, and doesn't come from town. Puppet's not genuinely hunting.
FoS: PuppetMaster, would be voting if not for the existence of pinky (and ETR)
Need to double-check: Does a Puppet/ETR/pinky/??? scumteam make sense?
Instead of trying to work out the entire scum team on Day 1, can we please just lynch the person that is incredibly, incredibly likely to be scum, and work out the rest later when we know her alignment? I know that this all started because I commented on a possible relationship between pinky and proph, but seriously, you guys are getting ridiculously ahead of yourselves. The notion that pinky should survive until whenever I die is complete and utter nonsense. Her claim is most likely fake. And if she IS telling the truth(as highly unlikely as this is), getting rid of her on Day 1 is drastically better than the scum getting to keep her around as a lynch possibility and manipulate events to get rid of her later. If I had been given that role, I would have claimed straight up upon starting the day and asked to be vigged ASAP. And it's not hard to get to that conclusion; that role is a complete disaster that has no business being in any game of mafia EVER(and if it IS real, the odds of me playing in a DRey designed game again in the future are negligible).
But anyway. Put aside the fact that she put a delayed Vig shot on me. If she had merely acted like she did, and then claimed that role, she would be sitting 1 vote from being lynched right now. And that is what needs to happen. The fact that she acted even scummier by arbitrarily vigging me in that fashion just makes it more necessary to lynch her. Not less so.
@dC: Tales was the only time I have ever done anything like what you are referencing, and there was a ton of history between myself and Loran that lead up to it. And I was the Vig, so I knew I could get out of it without the town wasting a lynch on me. And even taking all of that into account, it was STILL a really stupid thing to do, I was just going through a moment where I wanted to take a 'for the luls' approach to the game. But it was a bad approach. The circumstances surrounding that were not remotely the same as they are here. There is no justification for pinky not getting lynched today.
I continue to be unnerved by the amount of effort that Wessel is putting into defending pinky.
I mean like..I am normally very confident in my reads, especially if I think that someone is town. But I can't see myself ever putting myself on the line that much for someone that so thoroughly acted like scum.
Something stinks here. I'm not saying that we should shift focus to Wessel; pinky must be dealt with. But this is really off. Can someone provide me names of other games(not Basics) which Wessel was in?
Any examples of you defending someone this rigorously in any of those games?
Also, you keep quantifying your read on pinky with 'she shouldn't be lynched...today or tomorrow'. Either she is scum, or, she isn't. My role has no actual bearing on pinky's alignment. So which is it, Wessel? Should she be lynched, or not?
Anyone who wants to use their artifact toDay should speak up before anyone is lynched. If we've only got 8 slots open toDay (7 now that pinky used hers :no:), we need to figure out if there are going to be too many people for the open slots we've got.
I see desCoures wants to use his, and someone else said they wanted to use theirs as well (AtheistGod?).
Everything scares me... kitties scare me... squirrels scare me... corpses....corpses bring forth a pletora of confusing feeling which i prefer not to dwell on...:p
Everything scares me... kitties scare me... squirrels scare me... corpses....corpses bring forth a pletora of confusing feeling which i prefer not to dwell on...:p
Everything scares me... kitties scare me... squirrels scare me... corpses....corpses bring forth a pletora of confusing feeling which i prefer not to dwell on...:p
@Emo: What made you declare Proph town in the first place?
And why do you want to hunt lurkers so early in the game?
Prophy's the one who introduced me to mafia in the first place. I've followed several of his games the past year or so and have become well acquainted with his posting style. I've also played with him in 1 or 2 games on MTGS, a couple offsite and some IRC chat mafia.
In #18 he's one of the first players to start asking questions. Usually, as scum, he comes out of the gate a bit rockier (His play as Mitt Romney in Ghost Story comes to mind. Pretty lurky early on and jokes around a lot). His posts following the "We're ending RVS without half the players" comment read fluid and familiar.
My issue with the lurkers in question, is not that they are only lurking, but the few posts they have are terrible. TPM has done nothing to advance the game-state and literally is just hanging on Seppel's coattails. AG has done next to nothing since page 2 IIRC. AG has tripped my radar again since his two posts after "The Breath of the Woman" debacle don't address the issue at all. I was also hoping the pressure would make them post more. They haven't, which reinforces my reads.
pinkys is most likely scum, but I'd like to see her lynched regardless of her alignment. Players should not be allowed to get away with that sort of behavior without reprecussion.
Taredas was the one that said he wanted to use his artifact. I do not wish to use mine today.
Wessel, pinkys signature answers quite a few of your questions:
Also known at mafiascum as farside22
VI = Village Idiot
Trying to appear useful while adding no original content.
@AG: What do you feel about Pinky making her decision unilaterally? Do you believe Cyan, Pinky, both or neither are scum? Should we lynch Pinky now or wait to hash it out after Cyan's flip?
Personally, I think Pinky is playing bad town. She thinks she can play bold and get away with it since she claims to be a princess. The way she comes across in #165 (in which she uses her artifact) makes this apparent and reads natural. I'm inclined to believe the claim. Wessel's point about the link make sense to me. Still unsure if Cyan is just ragin on Pinky because she shot him or if he's scum trying to ensure the consecutive night phases happen. I'm leaning towards the former because of his posts prior to the shot.
1. So basically you're saying you gave him a + just for the extremely meta vote on pinky? For that matter, now that I look at it, you gave pinky a - for a 'silly RVS post'. Why?
I don't read posts in a vacuum. I analyze mindsets. Therefore, posts that match the mindset I've attributed to a player get a corresponding + or - to stock. pinkys has established a mindset of surface-level involvement and non-serious play. This is completely contrary to her standard deep involvement as town. This behavior has been consistent across the Day, as early as her very first post in the game. Taredas caught on to this, as did I, so he gets a + while pinkys gets a -.
2. ...what? 'Self-conscious'? I assume you're talking about the whole 'give me some latitude' line, but you're calling that more 'self-conscious' than Taredas asking a more directly fishing question in addition to wanting Seppel to answer Cyan's question, capped off with a 'I have reasons for asking about both'?
I was. I had more stock in Taredas than I did in Cyan. How someone does something is often more telling than what they do.
#4-6: Seppel confirms himself as town due to poor moderating. +++
#9: pinkys makes a silly RVS post. -
#10: Proph jumps on pinkys but does not vote. Town-claims. --
#12: Taredas wants to use his artifact Day One but withholds further information. Votes pinkys. +
#13: Cyan is 70% sure that AE is scum. -
#14: Proph questions Taredas and Cyan for doing the same thing he did in #10. -
#15: Seppel breadcrumbs his role/artifact combo.
#16: Cyan fishes Seppel. -
#17: Taredas elaborates on pinkys's meta. Fishes Seppel.
#18-19: Proph weakly detracts pinkys's attackers. Bemoans end of RVS. -
#21: Vox agrees with me who agrees with Voxxicus. +
#22: Proph fence-sits on RVS issue. -
#24: dC is dC. /barns Voxxicus.
#25&27: AG claims miller or some such. Pokes at Proph. +
#26&28: Proph continues to be defensive re: RVS. -
#30-31: Caex demonstrates that he failed to read the OP. +
#33: Rhand pokes at Proph. +
#34: Proph continues to weakly detract pinkys's attackers. Fence-sits on rationale for doing so. -
#35: Emo detracts breadcrumbers. Defends Proph for weak reasons. --
#36-37: Proph distances from Emo.
#38: AG votes Emo. +
#39-42: Emo argues semantics with Proph.
#43: Rhand questions Proph-Emo interplay. +
#45: Cyan fence-sits re: Proph. -
#47: Proph seems to be implying that his bad play is due to mounting pressure. (This is noteworthy because the first time I read this, I thought he was claiming that he is currently playing better than usual, when a careful reread indicates that this is definitely not the case.)
#49: Rhand does his research and votes Proph. + #50: Wessel pokes at Caex & Cyan. (Caex responds. Cyan does not.) +
#51: I demand political asylum.
#52-53: pinkys references self-meta. Fencesits re: Proph-Emo interplay. -
#54: Rhand defends vote. +
#55: Seppel entertains me.
#57-58&60&63&65: Proph detracts Rhand's vote without defending himself. Distances from and fence-sits re: pinkys. Wants to be voted for "a legit reason." -
#59&62&64: Rhand continues to pressure Proph. +
#61: Seppel votes Proph. + #66: Wessel has good reads but fence-sits on them. Pokes at Proph. +
#68: AG questions Rhand re: Proph-Emo interplay. +
#71: fade pokes at Proph, Rhand, & Caex. +
#75: Seppel pokes at Proph. +
#76: I vote Proph.
#77-78: Proph OMGUS's me. -
#79: Emo /barns Proph. -
#80: pinkys displays an inconsistent stance re: Seppel's vote vs. my vote. -
#81: Rhand calls out pinkys's inconsistency. +
#82-83: pinkys votes fade for weak reasons. Offers weak defense to inconsistency. -
#84: Seppel pokes at pinkys & Emo. + #85: Wessel /barns Seppel. +
#86: Cyan votes Proph. Uses noteworthy word "telling," which actually means nothing. Pokes at pinkys. -
#87: fade engages pinkys. Votes Emo. +
#88: AE jumps on Proph but does not vote. Engages Cyan & Wessel re: Cyan. FoS's me. +
#89: Proph votes AE for unknown "obvious" reason. -
...you gave Wessel a + three separate times, almost every time you mention him; once for 'poking at Cyan and Caex', who you have at a - and ++ respectively... that seems rather inconsistent with the way you hand out +s like candy for poking at pinky, isn't it? Once for the abovementioned 'good reads but fencesitting' and 'poking at Proph', which is unconvincing, to say the least... and once for... /barning Seppel? And at the end of it all you still only have him at a single +. Your metric seems rather arcane.
I'm not seeing a question. It's not my job to make you like my methods, so long as my methods produce results.
4. And here we have a complete and utter lie, because all pressure on Proph did not 'vanish with the claim'. People were quite ready to lynch Proph after his vanilla town claim, until some people, of which Taredas was one of the most strident, decided to defend him.
You accuse me of "a complete and utter lie" when it's a matter of perspective. If you're going to argue semantics, Proph had votes on him until people argued on his behalf and those votes migrated elsewhere. Ultimately, the result is that pressure went away. I question the intent of this character attack.
Your 'game state' is full of loaded language, and reads more like a list made to arrive at certain predetermined conclusions rather than an honest attempt at figuring out the game - like how, upon looking at why you had Cyan at a -, you give out blanket +s to anyone 'poking at' pinky or Proph... except Cyan, who you give -s to for nearly anything and everything.
I don't deny that my reads influenced my interpretation of the game state. Anyone who claims to be able to post a truly neutral PBPA is lying. I did not have a favorable read of Cyan at the time. This was reinforced by his posts. Given that one tends to establish reads based on posts, I find this to be perfectly logical.
But yeah, he's scum. Forget slanting the analysis, the single biggest problem with that "game state read" is that *it doesn't actually amount to anything*. It's just summarizing, and the pluses and minuses aren't backed by any reasoning. (One major reason for backburnering was to see if Puppet made another one of those "game state reads" - if he did, he would almost certainly be scum instead of just likely scum. I could see a townie doing that game state read once, but not twice.)
It's completely IIoA, and doesn't come from town. Puppet's not genuinely hunting.
You accuse me of providing "Information Instead of Analysis" inside a spoiler labeled "Game State." Clearly you can see how this might prove ineffective. I never claimed to be doing analysis. I was catching up with the thread and summarizing my reads for my own benefit as much as anyone else's.
I may very well continue this practice if I find it helpful. Your opinion on the matter is irrelevant.
pinkys is most likely scum, but I'd like to see her lynched regardless of her alignment. Players should not be allowed to get away with that sort of behavior without reprecussion.
This post is so bad.
You vilify me but completely ignore Cyan, who echoed my sentiments exactly. I find your lack of consistency disturbing.
Personally, I think Pinky is playing bad town. She thinks she can play bold and get away with it since she claims to be a princess. The way she comes across in #165 (in which she uses her artifact) makes this apparent and reads natural. I'm inclined to believe the claim. Wessel's point about the link make sense to me. Still unsure if Cyan is just ragin on Pinky because she shot him or if he's scum trying to ensure the consecutive night phases happen. I'm leaning towards the former because of his posts prior to the shot.
Have you ever played with town-pinkys? If so, you would know that pinkys did not get a town role PM in this game.
I'd like to see you solidify your stance re: Cyan sooner rather than later.
First let me answer the second part: What I feel is that pinky should not be lynched because there are two things that speak in favour of her. Maybe in two Days' time, if you were to flip scum, a third thing would be added. Maybe though, if you flip town, then yes we should take a new in depth look at pinky. I feel there are better candidates toDay who have nothing in favour of them.
This does not even remotely answer the question that I actually asked. Please try again.
Thanks for the game history, I'll try to work out how relevant that is.
I'm pretty unimpressed with TPM's last post, but, I don't want to worry about it now.
Maybe I am not making myself clear. You are arguing that pinky is town based on merits that have NOTHING to do with me. According to your argument of how she acted, how she visited the wiki, etc; my alignment should forever be completely irrelevant when it comes to your perspective of pinky's behavior.
And yet, you continue to make statements like 'if Cyan is town then pinky might be scum and we can revisit it'. But my alignment shouldn't matter to you, due to the reason(s) that you think that pinky is town.
Ultimately, your argument just lacks consistency. But you haven't sounded scummy when attempting to explain it, so..meh.
I remain steadfastly opposed to not lynching pinky today.
Ok. I've got a plan that might help, but I'm not sure. It involves me revealing my role followed by revealing my artifact. I'm sure the scum are all for it, but it could help get a few if I'm think it through correctly. Any have a problem with me moving forward? I'll wait until a reasonable number reply.
With 16 alive, it takes 9 votes to lynch. Day one "deadline" is on July 12.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
It's pretty hard to comment on that kind of 'plan' with such vague details. But at the same time, if you reveal too much about it, you might as well just go forward with it(I'm not sure whether or not I am actually recommending that).
I just don't know why all of this is necessary, and I feel like people are getting ahead of themselves. Why are we not just playing mafia(that means lynching pinky, incidentally).
Hm. 15 posts into the game, and Seppel is solidly town.
That reads genuine.
Vote: Prophylaxis
Why do you care if RVS is ended so early?
Super aggressive vote, first on the wagon and for a relatively lackluster reason. In fact, no reason at all - it's a question to Proph, I don't like it.
Uh huh. You 'don't like' a 'super aggressive vote'... that is the first vote on Proph, fresh out of RVS.
Thx Proph, Basic 61 confirmed what I think I might be seeing: you definately don't shy away from putting your first vote on a buddy.
Vote: Prophylaxis
Consider my vote also on Amocekes.
Rhand, did you actually only read one of Prophs games and immediately found this or did you look at multiple games and this was the only example that you found?
Should I take this to mean that you think what he says here about Proph is inaccurate? If so, why?
You should take it as a question. Hence the punctuation at the end.
I think you're scum because Emocakes jumped to your defence and you immediately distanced without acknowledging that.
Are 5 posts apart. In the first one you declare that you are pressuring Proph by voting him in order to determine his alignment, however, in the second post you call him scum because of your perceived distancing. This shows an inconsistent mindset in your reasoning for attacking Proph.
...except that he's already called Proph scum in the very section you quote above, and that the 'during your breaking' is obviously tongue-in-cheek. This is just a bad point.
I didn't say that you are behaving better than you did in SH, Proph. Just differently. The manner in which you responded is certainly telling, though. Vote Proph
I am concerned about Pinkys reaction to Proph, also. I would like to hear definitively as to why she doesn't think Proph is scum.
First, what game are you referencing by SH?
I don't have a problem with this vote as Cyan is using both Proph's responses and Pinky's reaction to draw a reasonable conclusion.
.........errr, the ongoing game which you just got lynched in as scum? I don't believe your memory is that short.
Also, why did you feel the need to elaborate so strongly about you 'not having a problem' with Cyan's vote here?
You mean giving a reason why I don't have a problem with it? This is a joke right?
I like this vote. AE outlined his reasoning and waited on a vote count before applying his vote. Demonstrates a more townmind set by not wanting to put someone at L1 or quicklynched my mistake.
So up to this point I would have to say that I dislike your (Rhand's) vote the least with Voxx's vote coming in second. Speaking of Voxx...
Ohh, I get it. This whole thing is supposed to be a vote analysis of Proph's wagon, despite being rather poorly constructed.
Just one thing, though. It's rather obvious to anyone that's looking at it, really, because you're approaching this whole vote analysis as though Proph is town.
Proph is probably town. Last few posts are extremely genuine.
Only post I actually don't like is the 'What proof do you have that I'm scum' thing.
EtR is scum. Let's lynch him.
Vote: EtR
Here's another bad vote for him.
Oh hey, blatant discrediting of people voting you. Although I'll note you have nothing to say about me... and I have my own theories as to why that is.
I really don't like post 101 - the second paragraph in particular. It's difficult to articulate, but it's just not genuine. He's trying too hard to be the careful townie.
I also really don't like the discrepancy between 'At first I didn't like this wagon' and then him later saying he's not voting for you because you get mislynched as town frequently.
I think you're town, and I think he knows you're town, and is trying to distance himself from the wagon, while not giving overt opposition, either.
In #116, he backpedals off of the discrepancy I noted prior, and it just feels like self-aware scum.
He's not scumhunting, and despite claiming that he thinks you're being pushed as a mislynch by scum, he has no reads on the people on your wagon. If he were town, that'd be where he was looking to try and find scum, rather than the passive 'There haven't been that many posts yet' reasoning.
Let's lynch him.
You sir, were not scum hunting prior to this post which is after my post, so this is a wee bit hypocritical I'd say. The rest of this is a bunch of "I thinks" and assumptions so forgive me for not rebutting.
That's effectively... one of the worst counterpoints ever. It's like saying 'yes, I was scummy. So were you!'
It's pretty hard to call someone scummy for exhibiting the same behavior that you are.
You also seem to be playing aggressively - is that typical of your style?
Why ask this?
Because I've never played with you and I'm trying to understand your style. Why else would I ask it?
It's not a misrep on Rhand, that is how I'm reading his post. That's also why I asked him. If I was trying to paint it a certain way I wouldn't have asked him.
I don't believe that Proph is scum, but his difference in playstyle this game is throwing me off.
After doing a 'vote analysis' of Proph's wagon that sure as heck sounded like it was being done from the viewpoint of Proph being town.
Who do you think you're kidding?
Because he is playing differently. He said so himself.
This is an example of why I asked if you are normally aggressive. You are all over the place. It's like you're just trying to make something stick.
I'm leaning Rhand or Caex at this point for my vote, but will look for responses first.
...and ending with the classic 'I won't vote yet, I'm looking for responses'.
I should hang a portrait of your avatar in a room somewhere. The caption would be 'Epitome of the Dishonest Scum'.
You believe me to be scum, then you round up a handful more people and lynch me. It might actually take you putting a case together though instead of using a bunch of buzzwords.
I know pinky is V/LA, but until she can explain herself, my opinion hasn't changed. I can not imagine having both a Princess role and a poison kill artifact and choosing to play it this way, when both can greatly hurt the town when played poorly.
I understand Wessel's argument, but I don't think that's enough. One possibility is that pinky had decided on Princess as a falseclaim earlier on, then when it came time to claim her role she went back to the wiki and just typed Princess into the search box. (If you type in Princess and hit Go, you get redirected to the Beloved Princess page while still keeping Princess as the URL.)
Meanwhile, I think it's likely that Cyan is going to flip town. I can never be sure with Cyan, but this reminds me more of town Cyan than scum Cyan. He has a way of getting tunnel vision in a very honest way, but when he tries to replicate that as scum there are often traces of deceit. Obviously I could be wrong, but I would put the odds on town at this point.
I also read Tar as town at the moment. I don't know his meta as well and I've never seen his scum game, but he reminds me of Redux II. I'm not as confident as I am about Cyan, but I don't see Tar bussing this way (if pinky is scum).
@Wessel: Do you still prefer Caex over pinky? From what I can tell, your vote on Caex (#147) is based solely on his post #145. He responded to that, and then due to the whole pinky thing, you never addressed it.
@Rhand: If we're holding off on pinky, who is your top suspect?
@dC: You mentioned you want to use your artifact today, and that it makes you not like pinky's claim. Will using your artifact actually shed light on pinky, or was that comment based on setup gaming?
pinkys_brain has requested replacement, per rules her vote has been unvoted and lynch threshold adjusted accordingly while I search for a replacement. With 16 alive, it takes 8 votes to lynch. Day one "deadline" is on July 12.
EDIT: MDenham replaced as Pinky, please give him a warm welcome. LT goes back to normal.
The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Re-reading as quickly as possible; I have a couple of other things that need to get done first (DCC + waking my wife up) and I'll go through and answer questions sometime within the next 2-3 hours.
Well this sucks. Are there any questions for pinkys that a replacement could actually answer? This is an incredibly destructive sequence of events if pinkys is town.
Is there any way to avoid just lynching now? I'm leaning towards going with EtR's plan now, even without any information, because its either that or lynch.
Well this sucks. Are there any questions for pinkys that a replacement could actually answer? This is an incredibly destructive sequence of events if pinkys is town.
As long as it's not meta-related and I can make sense of her votes, I can probably answer the questions.
About halfway through the read right now; at this point, I want to say that Taredas is either super-tunneling or possibly trying to do the "low-hanging fruit" that almost got Proph lynched thing, and - as far as the Proph wagon went - I'm leaning towards at least one of Cyan or AE as scum considering that they're the two common factors of both his wagon and mine at their peak.
More to come later; I'm going to be out of the house for a bit (but will be at a computer in about an hour and a half).
Mod note: as mentioned in the pre-game, I will be V/LA until next weekend. You can continue to copy me on any PM to DRey just so I"ll have them for reference.
@Wessel: Do you still prefer Caex over pinky? From what I can tell, your vote on Caex (#147) is based solely on his post #145. He responded to that, and then due to the whole pinky thing, you never addressed it.
Yes I do. Apart from the reasoning I gave in the post in which I voted him I also think that the group Caex/Emocakes/Prophylaxis contains scum (possibly all three of them), and I also didn't like that smiley post. That disapproving smiley was overdone and seemed more like an attempt at showing to the town that Caex really disapproved of it (really!), rather than a more natural way of talking. His responses didn't make me think any differently about the matter. So yea, I think Caex is scum, and should be looked at instead of pinky.
I still don't see the case on Caex.
Can you also explain why you're grouping Caex/Emo/Proph?
This is complete nonsense. The game has been going like a week. Pinky clearly ragequit, which I can't see happening if she is town(and she needs to be penalized post-game regardless of her alignment unless she has an extremely qualified reason) for replacing out. This feels completely like a calculated attempt at not getting lynched.
*EVERYTHING* that pink has done thus far points to her being scum, including replacing out here. She should be dead already, and we should not be sitting around discussing other candidates. She has literally zero evidence of town behavior(this is not hyperbole).
Okay, at library, finished reading. Activating psychic powers (which will get the scum to hammer me, because they do work in Mafia).
Let's run through things in order.
pinkys_brain (Wonder Woman) me (Jackie Chan) - at pinkys' play. Instead of good play, thread contained bobcat. Would not order again. Would not have pointed artifact at Cyan...
Cyan (Smoke Monster) - ...because Cyan reads like tunneling town at this point, latched onto someone who was playing REALLY ****ING BADLY. However, where there's smoke, there's fire - and where there's town tunneling on a wagon, there's scum as well. Looking at Proph's wagon at its peak and comparing it to the current votecount...
Seppel (Power Ranger Doppelganger) - ...well, hello there! The only other common factor between the wagons at this point. Therefore, caught scum with high probability. vote Seppel with extreme prejudice.
ThePuppetMaster (Puppet Master) - Not posting content? Cut that **** out. I'm not sure if that's just horrible play or if you are also scum at this point, because there isn't enough content to analyze well. Leaning heavily towards scum #2, however.
Wessel (David Bowie) - This guy knows what he's talking about... mostly. (The Caex/Emo/Proph group is probably wrong, however. I see no scum in there at this point.) Town, 99.99% guaranteed.
Taredas (Rika Furude) - Also highly likely to be town (and, again, tunneling).
Prophylaxis (TripleX) - ...will recognize this as my town meta.
Emocakes (The Doctor) - ...will not, because the only other game we played together, I replaced in for scum. This was not a claim of baker.
Fadeblue (Darkwing Duck) - Agreed that I'd like to see why Caex, Emo, and Proph are being grouped as "at least one is scum".
Rhand (Chuck Norris), EtR (Tyrion Lannister), and Voxxicus (James Bond) - I believe at least one of the remaining scum is in this group. Process of comparing the votecount with the one in #91 says it's EtR if TPM is scum, and both Voxx and Rhand if TPM is town, which leaves...
Atheist God (Bracken), Archmage Eternal (Wolverine), desCoures (Makishima Shougo), and Caex Kothar (Garrus Vakarian) - Regardless of whether or not TPM is scum, one of the four of you is. As said earlier, I don't believe Caex is scum, and AE made the last vote which... doesn't feel right for scum. My money's on desCoures - I only just replaced in, and I already have almost as many posts, hence probably lurking scum.
But that's the weakest read other than the "this depends on TPM" set.
Summary of reads: Scumteam is Seppel, desCoures, and either TPM and EtR or Voxx and Rhand; Cyan and Taredas are tunneling and should not be gone after on Day 3 (I assume the sequence will just go "Night 1, Night 2, Day 3" after I'm lynched, and if Cyan dies on Day 3 as I'm halfway expecting, you have my utmost apologies for pinkys playing like an idiot); Wessel should look at my scumreads and tell me what I'm doing wrong in my analysis in the next few hours.
Also, thanks to the stupid one-hour limit for the computers at the library, I'll be stuck on the phone for the next three hours and change until I get home. I apologize in advance for the lack of future content during that time.
You are naïve.
If pinkys is scum (which she most likely is), we will have just advanced the town win condition.
If pinkys is town, an example needs to be made of her so this sort of childish behavior ceases.
I see that Cyan agrees with me who agrees with him.
I play games to win; I find it hard to wrap my mind around that mentality.
What is going to stop her from doing the exact same thing again in some other game?
Sometimes, you have to put the long term health of the sub-forum above a single day in a single game.
And honestly, all of this is really moot, because it is much more likely that pinky is scum than it is that she is town.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
But unvote. I did overreact because my own mindset is so different.
I wouldn't call it overreacting regarding Puppet. He hasn't exactly been oozing townieness(if thats even a word but it's to the point). I agree with your mindset but you have to look at the situation.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
You have concocted a potent brew of WIFOM and mod-gaming. Who would drink that sludge when we have delicious cake courtesy of Occam's Razor?
Your stock just plummeted.
Pre-Post Edit:
Sarnath'd by multiple people. Oh well.
I'm starting to wonder about Wessel now also. I can't see a townie putting himself this much in the spotlight to defend an unknown quantity. Wessel should be looked at next(regardless of Pinky's alignment).
There's one thing that I noticed, though...
@Taredas: Why the strong town read on Emo?
Her play is extremely different from what I've seen her. As others already pointed out, she usually comes in and jumps on scummy people and doesn't let go. As you can see, in her second post of Super Mario World, she grabs someone right off the bat.
Same in Monster Island.
In this game she just... asks around.
This doesn't read as town talking to their scumspects.
I also think that pinky poisoned Cyan to get rid of the most dangerous player before she went down. I don't buy the falseclaim.
@mod: votecount?
So you know it's a falseclaim?
Town would say I don't but the claim or I think it's a falseclaim. You're too sure.
Expect a larger post tomorrow.
I'd want to lynch pinky for that as well, except that as far as I can recall, every single time something like this has happened it's been a town player shooting - reference Asphodel Meadows, Tales of the Fantastic, and at least one other which I can't remember of the top of my head.
Mmh. pinky needs to be resolved at some point, and there's very little redeeming in her behaviour, but I'm not quite seeing the benefit in ending the day so fast. I also think there are scummier individuals that need to be highlighted.
@pinky: Clarification ASAP. Does your role trigger on any death, or only on lynch? Also, see below - I have a number of questions I want you to answer.
---------------------
@ThePuppetMaster
1. So basically you're saying you gave him a + just for the extremely meta vote on pinky? For that matter, now that I look at it, you gave pinky a - for a 'silly RVS post'. Why?
2. ...what? 'Self-conscious'? I assume you're talking about the whole 'give me some latitude' line, but you're calling that more 'self-conscious' than Taredas asking a more directly fishing question in addition to wanting Seppel to answer Cyan's question, capped off with a 'I have reasons for asking about both'?
3. ....really. Let's take a look at your 'game state' again and see what you had to say about Wessel...
...you gave Wessel a + three separate times, almost every time you mention him; once for 'poking at Cyan and Caex', who you have at a - and ++ respectively... that seems rather inconsistent with the way you hand out +s like candy for poking at pinky, isn't it? Once for the abovementioned 'good reads but fencesitting' and 'poking at Proph', which is unconvincing, to say the least... and once for... /barning Seppel? And at the end of it all you still only have him at a single +. Your metric seems rather arcane.
4. And here we have a complete and utter lie, because all pressure on Proph did not 'vanish with the claim'. People were quite ready to lynch Proph after his vanilla town claim, until some people, of which Taredas was one of the most strident, decided to defend him.
Your 'game state' is full of loaded language, and reads more like a list made to arrive at certain predetermined conclusions rather than an honest attempt at figuring out the game - like how, upon looking at why you had Cyan at a -, you give out blanket +s to anyone 'poking at' pinky or Proph... except Cyan, who you give -s to for nearly anything and everything.
You're scum.
Unvote: EtR
FoS: EtR
Vote: ThePuppetMaster
@pinkys_brain
Explain all of the above bolded, please. Specifically, I want to know:
1. Your exact reasons for having EtR 'leaning scum', given that I don't believe I've seen a word from you about him.
2. Why you have Emocakes as 'null' when you've been asking various people why Emocakes is 'so scummy to them'.
3. Why you have Caex as scum at all.
Yes, we kind of know what OMGUS is. This still isn't terribly convincing.
@EtR
Uh huh. You 'don't like' a 'super aggressive vote'... that is the first vote on Proph, fresh out of RVS.
Riiiiight.
Should I take this to mean that you think what he says here about Proph is inaccurate? If so, why?
...except that he's already called Proph scum in the very section you quote above, and that the 'during your breaking' is obviously tongue-in-cheek. This is just a bad point.
No comment whatsoever on his 'game state'? No read?
You and TPM are so scum together.
.........errr, the ongoing game which you just got lynched in as scum? I don't believe your memory is that short.
Also, why did you feel the need to elaborate so strongly about you 'not having a problem' with Cyan's vote here?
Ohh, I get it. This whole thing is supposed to be a vote analysis of Proph's wagon, despite being rather poorly constructed.
Just one thing, though. It's rather obvious to anyone that's looking at it, really, because you're approaching this whole vote analysis as though Proph is town.
And how in the world do you know this?
Oh hey, blatant discrediting of people voting you. Although I'll note you have nothing to say about me... and I have my own theories as to why that is.
That's effectively... one of the worst counterpoints ever. It's like saying 'yes, I was scummy. So were you!'
After doing a 'vote analysis' of Proph's wagon that sure as heck sounded like it was being done from the viewpoint of Proph being town.
Who do you think you're kidding?
More attempts to discredit people voting you.
...and ending with the classic 'I won't vote yet, I'm looking for responses'.
I should hang a portrait of your avatar in a room somewhere. The caption would be 'Epitome of the Dishonest Scum'.
@Cyan
I'm a bit torn on Wessel. After looking through a number of his posts while looking at TPM above, I note he's been kind of defending people most of the game, so it's hardly just a link with pinky.
On the other hand I don't like that Caex is one of the only people he's solidly gone after at all, especially in response to Caex voting EtR, when he had Caex and EtR in roughly the same tier of suspicion previously. His reason for voting Caex was also rather uninspiring.
Mm. Actually, that makes me not like Wessel at all again.
-----------------------------
I'm currently leaning towards leaving pinky until Cyan flips, and lynching either TPM or EtR today. Please do look especially at my points on both of these people above, especially where they both contradict themselves with highly inconsistent behaviour.
Also, please don't end the day over the weekend. I'd like to use my artifact today.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
.....mm. Come to think of it, now that I mention my artifact... that makes me additionally not like pinky's claim. At all.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
I think pinky's action makes perfectly good sense if she's scum who realized what my artifact is (it's not exactly like I've been trying to keep that quiet, given the restriction on it pushes me towards using it sooner rather than later) and that I was likely to use it on her in the near future.
That's doubly true if farside and Proph are scumpartners - IIRC farside knows my views on vigs (most importantly, I generally view removing VIs as a Vig responsibility because that helps counteract the usual "scum kill strong analysts" plan and deals with players who might be town playing in an antitown manner without using a lynch on it).
Also, it's entirely possible that pinky realized that she was going down anyways and just decided to take down the player she considered the strongest town analyst with her - I've pulled that one before myself as scum.
---
Don't forget that farside has 'Scum experience, and knows my playstyle - so she knew that TWO extremely antagonistic players were both gunning for her.
(To answer ETR's question from earlier: I'm very aggressive, especially as town - and that's even after toning it down from the last time I played with farside. Redux 2 is a good example, albeit one where I was flightier D1 than usual due to cases being ignored.)
---
This post is godawful, especially in the unlikely but possible event that both Pinky and Cyan are town.
---
That claim is godawful, especially with the fearmongering ("imagine 2 nights though"). Completely unprovable, and the way she's played it is horrible - Beloved Princess is on the short list of abilities you should claim early, like how both Asenion and myself partially claimed early in Redux 2.
Also don't like the attack on Cyan. Farside's "all the attacks I have endured this game" basically boils down to two attacks - my consistent attack, and Cyan's attack (most attention was on Proph/ETR). Additionally, Cyan's reaction is consistent with certain town roles - and if Cyan is what I think he is (given his hints), no way in hell is pinky town.
The only thing that gives me pause is the way Pinky lays down reads and starts pushing a case. But her play up until now is her scumgame, the claim is bad, and the vig is bad (especially after Proph's claim)... and I think I saw her pull something similar in Cyan's Impossible when I was looking at it.
We could leave Pinky until Cyan dies if we want to be sure. But I'm pretty sure she's scum.
---
A) Read the first post.
B) You were in Mind Screw 3 (and probably more I'm forgetting, but definitely MS3), you know better than to claim that scum don't have bonus kills. Also the umpteen toughguys you see running around here (RR in Cyberspace and the bonus kill in FHF come to mind - no, I wasn't in them, but I did look at the setups).
---
Bad logic. Farside's been around awhile on 'Scum, and Beloved Princesses actually show up occasionally on 'Scum (I distinctly recall actually seeing one in a game I played before).
Wessel: Who do you think is scum, and why?
---
YOU should not be firing anything right now, for the same reason that Pinky should not have done so. (This doesn't apply to fade, just you.)
ETR: That means you, too.
---
This is absolutely correct. It is also very, very late to the party. Why only look at pinky now?
A) That's not a strong town read, just a town read. Emo could be scum, but I doubt that's the case.
B) Why? Emocakes's 151 looks genuine (Emo takes positions, explains reads, asks questions, and generally looks like he's scumhunting), and pinky's question to Emo that I mentioned earlier looks more like scum trying to find something to paint town as scum for than either town asking questions or scum asking things to their buddy.
(Latter doesn't apply if Pinky is town.)
---
PPE:
dC: No point hiding it now - I've had Puppet on the backburner (I hadn't seen enough from him to be sure that he was scum, thought pressure might be counterproductive, and Pinky and ETR were both higher priorities) Hence the and when you asked about my read on him - the indicating "I don't want Puppet to realize what I'm doing just yet" and the indicating that I was watching him closely (IGMEOY).
But yeah, he's scum. Forget slanting the analysis, the single biggest problem with that "game state read" is that *it doesn't actually amount to anything*. It's just summarizing, and the pluses and minuses aren't backed by any reasoning. (One major reason for backburnering was to see if Puppet made another one of those "game state reads" - if he did, he would almost certainly be scum instead of just likely scum. I could see a townie doing that game state read once, but not twice.)
It's completely IIoA, and doesn't come from town. Puppet's not genuinely hunting.
FoS: PuppetMaster, would be voting if not for the existence of pinky (and ETR)
Need to double-check: Does a Puppet/ETR/pinky/??? scumteam make sense?
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
But anyway. Put aside the fact that she put a delayed Vig shot on me. If she had merely acted like she did, and then claimed that role, she would be sitting 1 vote from being lynched right now. And that is what needs to happen. The fact that she acted even scummier by arbitrarily vigging me in that fashion just makes it more necessary to lynch her. Not less so.
@dC: Tales was the only time I have ever done anything like what you are referencing, and there was a ton of history between myself and Loran that lead up to it. And I was the Vig, so I knew I could get out of it without the town wasting a lynch on me. And even taking all of that into account, it was STILL a really stupid thing to do, I was just going through a moment where I wanted to take a 'for the luls' approach to the game. But it was a bad approach. The circumstances surrounding that were not remotely the same as they are here. There is no justification for pinky not getting lynched today.
I mean like..I am normally very confident in my reads, especially if I think that someone is town. But I can't see myself ever putting myself on the line that much for someone that so thoroughly acted like scum.
Something stinks here. I'm not saying that we should shift focus to Wessel; pinky must be dealt with. But this is really off. Can someone provide me names of other games(not Basics) which Wessel was in?
Also, you keep quantifying your read on pinky with 'she shouldn't be lynched...today or tomorrow'. Either she is scum, or, she isn't. My role has no actual bearing on pinky's alignment. So which is it, Wessel? Should she be lynched, or not?
Anyone who wants to use their artifact toDay should speak up before anyone is lynched. If we've only got 8 slots open toDay (7 now that pinky used hers :no:), we need to figure out if there are going to be too many people for the open slots we've got.
I see desCoures wants to use his, and someone else said they wanted to use theirs as well (AtheistGod?).
{Magic: The RPG}
Wessel, pinkys signature answers quite a few of your questions:
VI = Village Idiot
{Magic: The RPG}
Gotcha.
{Magic: The RPG}
In #18 he's one of the first players to start asking questions. Usually, as scum, he comes out of the gate a bit rockier (His play as Mitt Romney in Ghost Story comes to mind. Pretty lurky early on and jokes around a lot). His posts following the "We're ending RVS without half the players" comment read fluid and familiar.
My issue with the lurkers in question, is not that they are only lurking, but the few posts they have are terrible. TPM has done nothing to advance the game-state and literally is just hanging on Seppel's coattails. AG has done next to nothing since page 2 IIRC. AG has tripped my radar again since his two posts after "The Breath of the Woman" debacle don't address the issue at all. I was also hoping the pressure would make them post more. They haven't, which reinforces my reads.
This post is so bad.
Trying to appear useful while adding no original content.
@AG: What do you feel about Pinky making her decision unilaterally? Do you believe Cyan, Pinky, both or neither are scum? Should we lynch Pinky now or wait to hash it out after Cyan's flip?
Personally, I think Pinky is playing bad town. She thinks she can play bold and get away with it since she claims to be a princess. The way she comes across in #165 (in which she uses her artifact) makes this apparent and reads natural. I'm inclined to believe the claim. Wessel's point about the link make sense to me. Still unsure if Cyan is just ragin on Pinky because she shot him or if he's scum trying to ensure the consecutive night phases happen. I'm leaning towards the former because of his posts prior to the shot.
Sig & Avvy by Disappointing Signets Inc.
CCC&G BRAGGING RIGHTS
Mafia Statistics
I collect pacifism: 228
I don't read posts in a vacuum. I analyze mindsets. Therefore, posts that match the mindset I've attributed to a player get a corresponding + or - to stock. pinkys has established a mindset of surface-level involvement and non-serious play. This is completely contrary to her standard deep involvement as town. This behavior has been consistent across the Day, as early as her very first post in the game. Taredas caught on to this, as did I, so he gets a + while pinkys gets a -.
I was. I had more stock in Taredas than I did in Cyan. How someone does something is often more telling than what they do.
I'm not seeing a question. It's not my job to make you like my methods, so long as my methods produce results.
You accuse me of "a complete and utter lie" when it's a matter of perspective. If you're going to argue semantics, Proph had votes on him until people argued on his behalf and those votes migrated elsewhere. Ultimately, the result is that pressure went away. I question the intent of this character attack.
I don't deny that my reads influenced my interpretation of the game state. Anyone who claims to be able to post a truly neutral PBPA is lying. I did not have a favorable read of Cyan at the time. This was reinforced by his posts. Given that one tends to establish reads based on posts, I find this to be perfectly logical.
You accuse me of providing "Information Instead of Analysis" inside a spoiler labeled "Game State." Clearly you can see how this might prove ineffective. I never claimed to be doing analysis. I was catching up with the thread and summarizing my reads for my own benefit as much as anyone else's.
I may very well continue this practice if I find it helpful. Your opinion on the matter is irrelevant.
You vilify me but completely ignore Cyan, who echoed my sentiments exactly. I find your lack of consistency disturbing.
Have you ever played with town-pinkys? If so, you would know that pinkys did not get a town role PM in this game.
I'd like to see you solidify your stance re: Cyan sooner rather than later.
This does not even remotely answer the question that I actually asked. Please try again.
Thanks for the game history, I'll try to work out how relevant that is.
I'm pretty unimpressed with TPM's last post, but, I don't want to worry about it now.
And yet, you continue to make statements like 'if Cyan is town then pinky might be scum and we can revisit it'. But my alignment shouldn't matter to you, due to the reason(s) that you think that pinky is town.
Ultimately, your argument just lacks consistency. But you haven't sounded scummy when attempting to explain it, so..meh.
I remain steadfastly opposed to not lynching pinky today.
pinkys_brain (7) - Cyan, Taredas, Seppel, Fadeblue, Caex Kothar, AtheistGod, Archmage Eternal
EtR (2) - Voxxicus, Emocakes
Emocakes (2) - Prophylaxis, ThePuppetMaster
Caex Kothar (1) - Wessel
Cyan (1) - pinkys_brain
ThePuppetMaster(1) - desCoures
Not voting (2) - EtR, Rhand
With 16 alive, it takes 9 votes to lynch. Day one "deadline" is on July 12.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
I just don't know why all of this is necessary, and I feel like people are getting ahead of themselves. Why are we not just playing mafia(that means lynching pinky, incidentally).
What exactly is your point?
You should take it as a question. Hence the punctuation at the end.
Defense of possible scum buddy? Check.
At that point he had, what, two other posts? One being completely useless? Tell me, what should my read have been?
You mean giving a reason why I don't have a problem with it? This is a joke right?
Because I think he's town.
Then what exactly would your theory be?
It's pretty hard to call someone scummy for exhibiting the same behavior that you are.
Because he is playing differently. He said so himself.
Ok - what was redeemable about Caex's post?
You believe me to be scum, then you round up a handful more people and lynch me. It might actually take you putting a case together though instead of using a bunch of buzzwords.
I understand Wessel's argument, but I don't think that's enough. One possibility is that pinky had decided on Princess as a falseclaim earlier on, then when it came time to claim her role she went back to the wiki and just typed Princess into the search box. (If you type in Princess and hit Go, you get redirected to the Beloved Princess page while still keeping Princess as the URL.)
Meanwhile, I think it's likely that Cyan is going to flip town. I can never be sure with Cyan, but this reminds me more of town Cyan than scum Cyan. He has a way of getting tunnel vision in a very honest way, but when he tries to replicate that as scum there are often traces of deceit. Obviously I could be wrong, but I would put the odds on town at this point.
I also read Tar as town at the moment. I don't know his meta as well and I've never seen his scum game, but he reminds me of Redux II. I'm not as confident as I am about Cyan, but I don't see Tar bussing this way (if pinky is scum).
All of this combined suggests pinky as scum.
@Rhand: If we're holding off on pinky, who is your top suspect?
@dC: You mentioned you want to use your artifact today, and that it makes you not like pinky's claim. Will using your artifact actually shed light on pinky, or was that comment based on setup gaming?
pinkys_brain (7) - Cyan, Taredas, Seppel, Fadeblue, Caex Kothar, AtheistGod, Archmage Eternal
EtR (2) - Voxxicus, Emocakes
Emocakes (2) - Prophylaxis, ThePuppetMaster
Caex Kothar (1) - Wessel
ThePuppetMaster(1) - desCoures
Not voting (3) - EtR, Rhand, pinkys_brain
EDIT: MDenham replaced as Pinky, please give him a warm welcome. LT goes back to normal.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
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Is there any way to avoid just lynching now? I'm leaning towards going with EtR's plan now, even without any information, because its either that or lynch.
About halfway through the read right now; at this point, I want to say that Taredas is either super-tunneling or possibly trying to do the "low-hanging fruit" that almost got Proph lynched thing, and - as far as the Proph wagon went - I'm leaning towards at least one of Cyan or AE as scum considering that they're the two common factors of both his wagon and mine at their peak.
More to come later; I'm going to be out of the house for a bit (but will be at a computer in about an hour and a half).
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Thanks,
DYH
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
I still don't see the case on Caex.
Can you also explain why you're grouping Caex/Emo/Proph?
*EVERYTHING* that pink has done thus far points to her being scum, including replacing out here. She should be dead already, and we should not be sitting around discussing other candidates. She has literally zero evidence of town behavior(this is not hyperbole).
Let's run through things in order.
pinkys_brain (Wonder Woman)me (Jackie Chan) - at pinkys' play. Instead of good play, thread contained bobcat. Would not order again. Would not have pointed artifact at Cyan...Cyan (Smoke Monster) - ...because Cyan reads like tunneling town at this point, latched onto someone who was playing REALLY ****ING BADLY. However, where there's smoke, there's fire - and where there's town tunneling on a wagon, there's scum as well. Looking at Proph's wagon at its peak and comparing it to the current votecount...
Seppel (Power Ranger Doppelganger) - ...well, hello there! The only other common factor between the wagons at this point. Therefore, caught scum with high probability. vote Seppel with extreme prejudice.
ThePuppetMaster (Puppet Master) - Not posting content? Cut that **** out. I'm not sure if that's just horrible play or if you are also scum at this point, because there isn't enough content to analyze well. Leaning heavily towards scum #2, however.
Wessel (David Bowie) - This guy knows what he's talking about... mostly. (The Caex/Emo/Proph group is probably wrong, however. I see no scum in there at this point.) Town, 99.99% guaranteed.
Taredas (Rika Furude) - Also highly likely to be town (and, again, tunneling).
Prophylaxis (TripleX) - ...will recognize this as my town meta.
Emocakes (The Doctor) - ...will not, because the only other game we played together, I replaced in for scum. This was not a claim of baker.
Fadeblue (Darkwing Duck) - Agreed that I'd like to see why Caex, Emo, and Proph are being grouped as "at least one is scum".
Rhand (Chuck Norris), EtR (Tyrion Lannister), and Voxxicus (James Bond) - I believe at least one of the remaining scum is in this group. Process of comparing the votecount with the one in #91 says it's EtR if TPM is scum, and both Voxx and Rhand if TPM is town, which leaves...
Atheist God (Bracken), Archmage Eternal (Wolverine), desCoures (Makishima Shougo), and Caex Kothar (Garrus Vakarian) - Regardless of whether or not TPM is scum, one of the four of you is. As said earlier, I don't believe Caex is scum, and AE made the last vote which... doesn't feel right for scum. My money's on desCoures - I only just replaced in, and I already have almost as many posts, hence probably lurking scum.
But that's the weakest read other than the "this depends on TPM" set.
Summary of reads: Scumteam is Seppel, desCoures, and either TPM and EtR or Voxx and Rhand; Cyan and Taredas are tunneling and should not be gone after on Day 3 (I assume the sequence will just go "Night 1, Night 2, Day 3" after I'm lynched, and if Cyan dies on Day 3 as I'm halfway expecting, you have my utmost apologies for pinkys playing like an idiot); Wessel should look at my scumreads and tell me what I'm doing wrong in my analysis in the next few hours.
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