KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Some years the percentages fluctuate towards one team, which is rather strange
Also interesting to note is that significantly less games were run in 2013 then other years, meaning that games are getting longer recently.
I think it depends on who's playing @ fluctuating towards one team, as well as what host meta is changing to look like. We've been seeing a lot more swingy games in an attempt not to repeat old mechanics and setups. I've actually noticed that our games this year are a lot faster than what they were last year. Additionally, I think our town players are getting better, our scum players are getting worse, or the meta/setups are just favoring town/or are swingier and have happened to be in the town's favor with how the cards fell. Probably some combination of several of these.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Additionally, I think our town players are getting better, our scum players are getting worse, or the meta/setups are just favoring town/or are swingier and have happened to be in the town's favor with how the cards fell.
Hm, you really think so?
I'm actually thinking that the site's play is getting worse, overall - we've lost a whole bunch of strong consistent analysts (or they're on hiatus). I'm actually yearning for the playerbase of 2011/2012, and I'm a bit disappointed that I sucked during that time.
Like, taking a look at a random Mini from 2012 (Kitteh Trek, worth reading for Guardman's PR alone) Emo_Pinata/TIM/Syrenz/DRey/Xyre/atlseal/pinkys_brain all strike me as decent-to-strong players who've vanished in the past year, or recent months.
Additionally, I think our town players are getting better, our scum players are getting worse, or the meta/setups are just favoring town/or are swingier and have happened to be in the town's favor with how the cards fell.
Hm, you really think so?
I'm actually thinking that the site's play is getting worse, overall - we've lost a whole bunch of strong consistent analysts (or they're on hiatus). I'm actually yearning for the playerbase of 2011/2012, and I'm a bit disappointed that I sucked during that time.
Like, taking a look at a random Mini from 2012 (Kitteh Trek, worth reading for Guardman's PR alone) Emo_Pinata/TIM/Syrenz/DRey/Xyre/atlseal/pinkys_brain all strike me as decent-to-strong players who've vanished in the past year, or recent months.
Thoughts?
I mean, I definitely agree. Losing a lot of the vets really hurt us overall, IMO. I just think that the scum are running out of tricks. Gambits became popular around late '11/early '12, and since pretty much all of them have been pulled, people stopped focusing on simply playing solidly as scum and forgot/never knew how. So, like I said, I think it's a number of contributing factors.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Emo_Pinata/TIM/Syrenz/DRey/Xyre/atlseal/pinkys_brain all strike me as decent-to-strong players who've vanished in the past year, or recent months.
I've seen this kinda talk on this forum ever since I joined in 2009. The playerbase is always changing, vets leave and players that used to be new get better. Syrenz and Drey were actually kinda bad in their first 5 or so games, but they got way better with experience. You yourself have gotten way better. I'm not sure if I would say the best players of any given year are better or worse than current ones. New players are stepping up just fine, IMO.
On the games/statistics, it actually looks fairly balanced except for 2007, 2009, and 2012, which favored the scum. I'm going to hazard a guess that it's due to some imbalanced setups, which tend to favor the scum, but I'm not sure if that's really the case.
I'm not sure if this is exactly the place for it, but, um, are there any specific requirements to be added to the reviewer list? I don't really have intentions of actually modding here, but I think some of the players here can vouch to my experience with setup design and I wouldn't mind being able to help review setups if needed.
On another note, i forgot league games for the win percentages. So, disregard the percentages, and add 4 town wins and a scum win to 2013 and a town win to 2014.
I'm not sure if this is exactly the place for it, but, um, are there any specific requirements to be added to the reviewer list? I don't really have intentions of actually modding here, but I think some of the players here can vouch to my experience with setup design and I wouldn't mind being able to help review setups if needed.
This would be better posted in the Council thread, but I think if you show them some review QTs/actually review games over here they'll add you.
(I actually have a setup in need of review. Can you do it?)
"Doing specialties" as in reviewing them or playing them?
As for claim at L-2, it provides a safety net. I've seen it enough where a person votes a player, thinking that puts them at L-2, when it puts them at L-1. Now, reduce that, and instead of accidentally going over the claim limit, it's now a lynch.
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She wants a ride on the pony, dude.
Mafia Stats
Kill shot: BB
Issue with my shooting? Please visit my helpdesk and help me learn to aim!
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'm loving the recent streak of town wins recently in Normals - not sure if it's the League or just attracting a no-nonsense playerbase, but I'm impressed. We've come a long way from.. Starcraft (lol) and Flame Warriors (lol).
This means our current reviewers and hosts are doing a great job balancing normals. If we can get the specialties and FTQ on par with these numbers, then we'd be set!
Are Millers totally archaic as a way to balance out cops at this point? I feel as if anyone who has read more than two games knows the drill: claim miller day one, vig shoots miller ASAP. The point of any role should be to create gameplay tension, but in our meta getting a Miller role is not only formulaic to the Miller, it's also formulaic to other supporting roles like vig and cop. Should we move on from the role as a community or is there still design space I'm not recognizing?
Shooting the Miller instantly surprises me. Meta where I came from was to instant claim miller (which is still problematic) but nobody ever shot the miller. Seems like a waste. If you are having people constantly shooting millers N1 then you are probably giving Vigs too many shots. I find anything more then a one shot vig is usually excessive. Bad vigs can sink towns faster then good scums. I like reserving high variance roles (of which there should be few) for something unique and clever, not for something as droll as a multi shot Vig.
This means our current reviewers and hosts are doing a great job balancing normals. If we can get the specialties and FTQ on par with these numbers, then we'd be set!
..by which I *think* he's referring to B_E's comment of "OUR NORMALS ARE BALANCED".
11-2 Mountainous is the standard. Town don't actually lynch better than random without power roles to give them information. Mafiascum has a lot of data on simpler set-ups like that.
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An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
I recently played in a large mafiascum game where a 4 man scum team were up against a 16 man town team. No neutrals at all.
That required the scum team to get 6-7 mislynches. By the sheer strength of our teams game skill we managed 5. But we were also up against a cop, a mason team and a jail keeper.
So biasing town makes the scum team still able to just take the moral victory, because they are up against impossible odds.
It was a bit amusing that you were caught by the cop in Star Wars, then immediately got jailed on a no-kill night in that game, heh.
I was very thankful to not have to read that game upon replacing in (had 7k posts).
-----
I still think that Mountainous balance is based on the player experience.
Iso's Inflammable Mafia had a pretty solid playerbase, with townies that could remove themselves from the PoE pile quickly (Ged, Delilah) and two scum that were locked-on quickly (Wheat_Grinder, ER/Megiddo). I was surprised to see the town do so well, in that game - while it's not strictly Mountainous, it's somewhat similar.
Take any random playerbase - Vanilla Mafia 2 illustrates this perfectly - and I think that it's scum-sided.
Quote from masterplum »
One of the things I've learned over the years is it's not fair to scum to screw them over because you have bad towns. You need to fix the bad towns.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Mountainous rule of thumb: 4-5 town per scum. 10-2 is common, but only because we like 12 player games; I think anything from 16-4 up to 18-4 is balanced.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Is there still a hard 3 game limit on players or has that been lifted?
It's "encouraged" but not "enforced", except for chronic replacers, usually. We normally just let the game host decide that if they don't want to let a player in due to flakiness, then that's their call to make.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I don't see how people can be in 3 games, let alone more then 3.
I think activity would increase and you would have better games if you cut the limit to 2 at least. I would never play in more then one game at once. I just wouldn't put forth enough effort. I don't see how anyone could
I've played in 10 games (across multiple sites, mind you) at once before.
Granted, I don't have the time or energy for that anymore, but it was well within the realm of feasibility - and I think I won over half of those games.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I was in a long stretch of 5+ games last year, across multiple sites, but I realized that it's really overtaxing and I hate being stretched thin. I think I'll be sticking to a maximum of one, maybe two games while wearing my Mafia League Head Judge title.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Some years the percentages fluctuate towards one team, which is rather strange
Also interesting to note is that significantly less games were run in 2013 then other years, meaning that games are getting longer recently.
I think it depends on who's playing @ fluctuating towards one team, as well as what host meta is changing to look like.
Yeah, like I said, I think it depends on who's playing and in how many games.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
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Curse PremiumHm, you really think so?
I'm actually thinking that the site's play is getting worse, overall - we've lost a whole bunch of strong consistent analysts (or they're on hiatus). I'm actually yearning for the playerbase of 2011/2012, and I'm a bit disappointed that I sucked during that time.
Like, taking a look at a random Mini from 2012 (Kitteh Trek, worth reading for Guardman's PR alone) Emo_Pinata/TIM/Syrenz/DRey/Xyre/atlseal/pinkys_brain all strike me as decent-to-strong players who've vanished in the past year, or recent months.
Thoughts?
I mean, I definitely agree. Losing a lot of the vets really hurt us overall, IMO. I just think that the scum are running out of tricks.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I've seen this kinda talk on this forum ever since I joined in 2009. The playerbase is always changing, vets leave and players that used to be new get better. Syrenz and Drey were actually kinda bad in their first 5 or so games, but they got way better with experience. You yourself have gotten way better. I'm not sure if I would say the best players of any given year are better or worse than current ones. New players are stepping up just fine, IMO.
On the games/statistics, it actually looks fairly balanced except for 2007, 2009, and 2012, which favored the scum. I'm going to hazard a guess that it's due to some imbalanced setups, which tend to favor the scum, but I'm not sure if that's really the case.
Either way, we're all gonna burn
Mini:
2005
2 out of 3 town wins
1 out of 3 scum wins
0 neutral wins
2006
2 out of 6 town wins
3 out of 6 scum wins
1 out of 6 neutral wins
2007
6 out of 13 town wins
7 out of 13 neutral wins
0 neutral wins
2008
7 out of 12 town wins
5 out of 12 scum wins
0 neutral wins
2009
3 out of 8 town wins
5 out of 8 scum wins
1 out of 8 neutral wins
2010
6 out of 10 town wins
3 out of 10 scum wins
1 out of 10 neutral wins
2011
2 out of 6 town wins
3 out of 6 scum wins
1 out of 6 neutral wins
2012
4 out of 16 town wins (yup, only 4)
9 out of 16 scum wins
4 out of 16 neutral wins (go town! Equal to neutrals)
2013
8 out of 15 town wins
7 out of 15 scum wins
3 out of 15 neutral wins
2014 (so far, up to Tales of Xymande)
1 out of 3 town wins
2 out of three scum wins
0 neutral wins
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Curse PremiumThis would be better posted in the Council thread, but I think if you show them some review QTs/actually review games over here they'll add you.
(I actually have a setup in need of review. Can you do it?)
DISCLAIMER: Newbies are counted as basics
2005
Town win 3 of 4 games
Scum win 1 of 4 games
2006
Town win 4 out of 6 games
Scum win 2 out of 6 games (the setup used for these years involved a cop and doc with no scum PRs)
2007
Town win 1 out of 5 games
Scum win 4 out of 5 games
2008
Town win 5 out of 9 games
Scum win 4 out of 9 games
Neutral wins 1 out of 5 games (he was a survivor)
2009
Town win 7 out of 17 games
Scum win 10 out of 17 games
Neutral wins 1 out of 17 games (that year we switched to basics).
2010
Town wins 10 out of 20 games
Scum wins 10 out of 20 games
2011
Town won 12 out of 24 games
Scum won 12 out of 24 games
2012
Town won 5 out of 15 games (town! Hell yeah!)
Scum won 10 out of 15 games
2013
Town won 6 out of 11 games
Scum won 5 out of 11 games
2014 (up to Basic 82)
Town won 1 out of 3 games
Scum won 2 out of 3 games
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Curse PremiumOn another subject, remind me why we claim at L-2 not L-1? If someone quickhammers they are scum, or if the person selfhammers, they are scum.
As for claim at L-2, it provides a safety net. I've seen it enough where a person votes a player, thinking that puts them at L-2, when it puts them at L-1. Now, reduce that, and instead of accidentally going over the claim limit, it's now a lynch.
Mafia Stats
Kill shot: BB
Issue with my shooting? Please visit my helpdesk and help me learn to aim!
New players can roll scum, too, y'know.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Mafia Stats
Kill shot: BB
Issue with my shooting? Please visit my helpdesk and help me learn to aim!
2005
Town win ¼
Scum win ¾
2006
Town win ¼
Scum win ¾
2007
Town win 0/3
Scum win 3/3
2008
Town win 2/7
Scum win 4/7
Neutral win 1/7
2009
Town win ¼
Scum win ¾
2010
Town win ¼
Scum win ¾
2011
Town win ½
Scum win ½ (finally a balanced year
2012
Town win ½
Scum win ½ (balanced again!)
2013
Town win ⅓
Scum win ⅔
2014 (up to SEMII)
Town win 0/1
Scum win 0/1
Neutral win 1/1
SO MODS! MAKE YOUR SPECIALTIES MORE TOWNSIDED MMMK!
2005
Scum win 2/5
Town win 3/5
2006
Scum win 2/4
Town win 2/4
2007
Town win 2/6
Scum win 3/6
Neutral win 1/6
2008
Town win ¾
Scum win ¼
Neutral wins ¼
2009
Town wins 3/5
Scum wins 2/5
2010
Town wins 3/7
Scum wins 4/7
Neutral wins 1/7
2011
Town wins 2/4
Scum wins 2/4
Neutral wins ¼
2012
Scum wins 2/4
Town wins 2/4
2013
Town wins 4/5
2014
Town wins 1/1
OUR NORMALS ARE BALANCED, OR EVEN TOWN SIDED
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Curse Premium2013 normals is surprising, guessing that's due to the league?
Assuming that 10-2 is balanced, which it is not.
Shooting the Miller instantly surprises me. Meta where I came from was to instant claim miller (which is still problematic) but nobody ever shot the miller. Seems like a waste. If you are having people constantly shooting millers N1 then you are probably giving Vigs too many shots. I find anything more then a one shot vig is usually excessive. Bad vigs can sink towns faster then good scums. I like reserving high variance roles (of which there should be few) for something unique and clever, not for something as droll as a multi shot Vig.
Which way do you think it's unbalanced?
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Curse PremiumTo Zionite?
..by which I *think* he's referring to B_E's comment of "OUR NORMALS ARE BALANCED".
Scum sided.
Honestly, I's like to see thirteen player minis here.
Those nuts think 11-2 is scumsided
Scum would need 5 mislynchs
Town would literally win half the the games if they decided lynches through a random number generator and that is assuming town has no power.
That's insane.
Assuming normal power, 7-2 would be closer to fair, 8-2 or 9-2 if you want town to win a normal amount of games.
One of the things I've learned over the years is it's not fair to scum to screw them over because you have bad towns. You need to fix the bad towns.
In 11-2 scum needs 4 mislynches.
11-2 is still absurd.
9-2 is still town sided
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
ANYWAY: HOW MANY TOWN IN 4 SCUM MOUNTAINOUS?
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Curse PremiumIt was a bit amusing that you were caught by the cop in Star Wars, then immediately got jailed on a no-kill night in that game, heh.
I was very thankful to not have to read that game upon replacing in (had 7k posts).
-----
I still think that Mountainous balance is based on the player experience.
Iso's Inflammable Mafia had a pretty solid playerbase, with townies that could remove themselves from the PoE pile quickly (Ged, Delilah) and two scum that were locked-on quickly (Wheat_Grinder, ER/Megiddo). I was surprised to see the town do so well, in that game - while it's not strictly Mountainous, it's somewhat similar.
Take any random playerbase - Vanilla Mafia 2 illustrates this perfectly - and I think that it's scum-sided.
I agree with this.
16, IMO
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
It's "encouraged" but not "enforced", except for chronic replacers, usually. We normally just let the game host decide that if they don't want to let a player in due to flakiness, then that's their call to make.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I think activity would increase and you would have better games if you cut the limit to 2 at least. I would never play in more then one game at once. I just wouldn't put forth enough effort. I don't see how anyone could
Granted, I don't have the time or energy for that anymore, but it was well within the realm of feasibility - and I think I won over half of those games.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
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