The Mafia Council Thread

  • #51
    I always sorta mentally defined specialty games as games with variant townie win conditions (protect the totem, prevent the *specific character* from dying) and games with large additions to the rules (Dollar Mafia). However, I suppose an exception must be made for games with an exceptionally large portion of abnormal win conditions and roles.
    What... what..? what.
    RBS

  • #52
    Quote from Rhinocero »
    I disagree with [requiring a n00b game to play in a standard or specialty0], mostly because I stared out in a standard game and did fine. Specialty games, certainly, and it might be advisable to make sure they're read games before, but I don't think we should bar them from standard games.


    I also started in a standard game and did fine. (heck, I lived to the near end).
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  • #53
    I think the 1 specialty, 1 normal game rule should be changed to a 2 game rule. Perhaps this is only because I don’t understand why the rule came to be in the first place. Could someone explain to me why this rule was instigated in the first place?



    Town/Mafia/Other - 14/6/3
    Win/Lose/Tie - 11/12/0
    Nk/lynched/Survived - 16/4/3

    Quote from Cyan »
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  • #54
    Quote from chamber »
    I think the 1 specialty, 1 normal game rule should be changed to a 2 game rule. Perhaps this is only because I don’t understand why the rule came to be in the first place. Could someone explain to me why this rule was instigated in the first place?



    Agree compleetely.

    I mean, just let me play in both games! Put me on the probation list if I lurk!

    Sorry for whining so much here, I know it's annoying sometimes. I was just really looking forward to playing in both.

    I mean, look: the only rational argument is it incites lurking, right?

    The thing is, that's a danger for some people, but not others.
    Last edited by Rhinocero: 11/14/2005 7:29:49 PM
    What... what..? what.
    RBS

  • #55
    Quote from Rhinocero »
    Agree compleetely.

    I mean, just let me play in both games! Put me on the probation list if I lurk!

    Sorry for whining so much here, I know it's annoying sometimes. I was just really looking forward to playing in both.

    I mean, look: the only rational argument is it incites lurking, right?

    The thing is, that's a danger for some people, but not others.

    2 games are even allowed already, as long as they are one special and one normal, so you can't argue it’s because of lurker potential.



    Town/Mafia/Other - 14/6/3
    Win/Lose/Tie - 11/12/0
    Nk/lynched/Survived - 16/4/3

    Quote from Cyan »
    I can't be the only person here that understands the concept of humility and the psychological aspects and benefits of it.


  • #56
    It's so more people can get into a game, as the other way to let everyone into a game would be to run more and more games, after a while they would take over the boards and 20 people would be in 300 games each plus some random noobs who get lynched day one because the old players are really eleitist
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  • #57
    Please use specific examples and points, thats how a debate works.
    I do not know why it is you want the rule to change, except that you have decided to be greedy and want to take up a spot in every single mafia game on the site. (Yes, you may call this incorrect, but without any valid reasoning against the current system, your statements are similarly invalid)

    Now, for the first worthwhile point in this discussion:
    The rule was created to better allow equal opportunity for larger amounts of players to play in the set limit of mafia games on this site. We cannot support many mafia games at once, as we do not have the player base of scums, and this site is not for mafia, it runs mafia in addition to everything else, which is a bonus for you. So, sit back, remember a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush (as it applies to already being in one game, and desiring a spot in another), and be glad you are already in one game, and should go make the best of it.



    EDIT: my point essentially sarnath'd by musashi.
    EDIT: Jesus could you stop spamming. That post was entirely unnecessary. (Below)
    Last edited by Vecna_Reborn: 11/14/2005 7:42:34 PM
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  • #58
    Alright, cool, didn't see that point.

    Still annoyed, but mollified.
    What... what..? what.
    RBS

  • #59
    Quote from Vecna_Reborn »
    Please use specific examples and points, thats how a debate works.
    I do not know why it is you want the rule to change, except that you have decided to be greedy and want to take up a spot in every single mafia game on the site. (Yes, you may call this incorrect, but without any valid reasoning against the current system, your statements are similarly invalid)

    Now, for the first worthwhile point in this discussion:
    The rule was created to better allow equal opportunity for larger amounts of players to play in the set limit of mafia games on this site. We cannot support many mafia games at once, as we do not have the player base of scums, and this site is not for mafia, it runs mafia in addition to everything else, which is a bonus for you. So, sit back, remember a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush (as it applies to already being in one game, and desiring a spot in another), and be glad you are already in one game, and should go make the best of it.



    EDIT: my point essentially sarnath'd by musashi.


    Musashi's point is invalid. I still think a two game limit is valid. I just don't understand why it is limited to 1 normal and 1 specialty.


    Town/Mafia/Other - 14/6/3
    Win/Lose/Tie - 11/12/0
    Nk/lynched/Survived - 16/4/3

    Quote from Cyan »
    I can't be the only person here that understands the concept of humility and the psychological aspects and benefits of it.


  • #60
    Please post in normal size, and please explain why it is invalid, not just saying it. In a debate, you have to tell your sources, or the world would be overrun by large flying hippos with machine guns. I read it on the internet.

    Also, Musashi's point was right on the money, imho.
    MAENTWROG (n. Welsh)
    Celtic word for a computer spelling mistake.
    SR
  • #61
    Quote from Vecna_Reborn »
    Please post in normal size, and please explain why it is invalid, not just saying it. In a debate, you have to tell your sources, or the world would be overrun by large flying hippos with machine guns. I read it on the internet.

    Also, Musashi's point was right on the money, imho.


    The number of games each person is allowed in would not change. Each person could not be in 20 games because there would still be a maximum of 2. I'm just suggesting the removal of the restriction stating it must be one special and one normal.



    Town/Mafia/Other - 14/6/3
    Win/Lose/Tie - 11/12/0
    Nk/lynched/Survived - 16/4/3

    Quote from Cyan »
    I can't be the only person here that understands the concept of humility and the psychological aspects and benefits of it.


  • #62
    Quote from chamber »

    Musashi's point is invalid. I still think a two game limit is valid. I just don't understand why it is limited to 1 normal and 1 specialty.
    The reason there is one special and one normal and not two normals is so people don't have to wait too long to get in a game. They can at least jump into a game because one starts right after the last one ended.

    If you could jump into any game as long as you didn't have two games yet, then people who wanted to start couldn't because a group of people that think like you would be hogging all the spaces in the normal games.
    Noob games aren't good for continued play, so don't play that card on me.
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  • #63
    I think changes to the rule have been discussed before. It might seem odd that the two game limit is restricted to 1 specialty and 1 normal, but if we made it open to any two games, then most players would be in both normals, which really would tend to push out newer players. At least, it would under the "specialty games are meant for more experienced players" philosophy.

    Originally, the specialty game slot was created with the clause that mods could refuse a player if the mod felt the player wouldn't be able to handle it (whereas normal game mods aren't allowed to refuse players unless they're on the blacklist). Now, if specialty games were actually run under this philosophy, letting players play in 2 normals could really affect other players' opportunities to play.

    Of course, there's still discussion open about whether we should even bother differentiating between normal and specialty, but that's a different issue altogether.
  • #64
    The primary reasoning behind allowing multiple games is because we really only have a maximum of 30-40 people who participate in mafias consistently. Running extra games, at least for a while, my let some people who are consistently aggravated by getting killed on the first night to get into another game.

    Sure, this isn't mafiascum. But the advantage of a constant stream of games is to allow people to never feel like they're wasting time. A plus to that is that we would be able to burn down the waiting list somewhat (especially because perhaps half of those people don't frequent the site anymore. A major problem with mafias is inconsistent hosts).

    If we allowed a greater number of games, then the list would decrease (especially because it's at, what, thirty people waiting?), and that would increase interest in hosting. A major deterrent in hosting seems to be the massive waiting period, and when a hole opens only once a month, I may have to wait a year to even host my first mafia, even if I may have my third done by the beginning of 2006. I'm impatient to begin, sure, but the random people who float into Mafias (like people who can't remember that the big button on the CPU turns the computer on) take spaces away from people who wait for a month and find that the space was taken by another person who gets lynched simply for not showing up.

    People, Mafias are commitments. When anybody who walks in is offered a seat, with no experience requirement and no commitment enforcement, it leaves people like myself, who want to participate in as many mafias as possible out in the cold. Sure, I'm not the greatest player (as Fayul would attest to in a heartbeat), but I'm getting better at that. When we simply let anybody into a limited game space, the people who wait for this lose the opportunity.

    That's why we need to better enforce non-posting and consistent lurking. Sure, the game mods are supposed to watch that, but when you get to fifty pages in the game (like Random 2) and some people haven't posted twenty times, that's a space that should have been freed earlier to someone with more commitment. Sure, it eventually takes the mod to enforce the rules, but if we get that little consistency, we need to make that punishable with more than a minor reprimand. If we get people like, say, Leilani, who need to be lynched just to get them out of the way, then the game isn't working.

    So here's the proposition: enforce the lag/lurk rules more, and add greater punishment. People who can't participate consistently shouldn't participate. And we should either a) add more games to cut back on the list and increase availability-with or without the game restriction, although this may require softening it to two games, regardless of type-or b) push mods to get rid of people who just won't show up. Either way, people who are committed to this site-like my friend Rhinocero-can participate as much as they like.

    Just my $0.02
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  • #65
    Quote from fadeblue »
    I think changes to the rule have been discussed before. It might seem odd that the two game limit is restricted to 1 specialty and 1 normal, but if we made it open to any two games, then most players would be in both normals, which really would tend to push out newer players. At least, it would under the "specialty games are meant for more experienced players" philosophy.

    Originally, the specialty game slot was created with the clause that mods could refuse a player if the mod felt the player wouldn't be able to handle it (whereas normal game mods aren't allowed to refuse players unless they're on the blacklist). Now, if specialty games were actually run under this philosophy, letting players play in 2 normals could really affect other players' opportunities to play.

    Of course, there's still discussion open about whether we should even bother differentiating between normal and specialty, but that's a different issue altogether.


    So it comes down to the need to leave spots open for new players? I guess I'll give up, as I don’t feel like continuing this argument. I will finish by saying my first game was in a specialty, and I feel I did fine.



    Town/Mafia/Other - 14/6/3
    Win/Lose/Tie - 11/12/0
    Nk/lynched/Survived - 16/4/3

    Quote from Cyan »
    I can't be the only person here that understands the concept of humility and the psychological aspects and benefits of it.


  • #66
    @Xyre
    Lag and lurk rules are enforced by the game mods in their own games, at their own whims, which are not enforced by the council. The only thing I can do is black/temp list people that the host reccommends for punishment.
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    SR
  • #67
    Quote from Vecna_Reborn »
    @Xyre
    Lag and lurk rules are enforced by the game mods in their own games, at their own whims, which are not enforced by the council. The only thing I can do is black/temp list people that the host reccommends for punishment.
    I agree that anti-lurking rules would be easier to enforce if it was objectified, but it would also lead to good (used in the moral sense of the word) players who lose internet or just end up not posting for a while would be punished even though they are teying. It's better left up to the mods.
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  • #68
    Perhaps, but I'd see more lenience for an experienced player (like you, Sash) than a first-timer (like Leilani). At least encourage mods to do more.
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  • #69
    Quote from Xyre »
    Perhaps, but I'd see more lenience for an experienced player (like you, Sash) than a first-timer (like Leilani). At least encourage mods to do more.
    But then you end up with a complex system of un-needed rules that turn new players away.
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  • #70
    Quote from chamber »
    So it comes down to the need to leave spots open for new players? I guess I'll give up, as I don’t feel like continuing this argument. I will finish by saying my first game was in a specialty, and I feel I did fine.


    Don't get me wrong, chamber. It's not just for new players; it's simply for all players to have a reasonable chance at playing in a normal game (some don't want to deal with a "specialty" game). And the argument that you were fine is also invalid, since you're not representative of most new players - how many others do you think thoroughly read as many games as you did before you started playing?

    I'm not here to defeat your argument; I just wanted to tell you what the original reasoning was. One could argue that the introduction of the Newbie games eliminates the need for such a rule, but again, that requires some restructuring to be done in terms of how the games are run.

    There are lots of changes I'd like to see, but I haven't personally had the time to sort things out. I've also been considering requesting a subforum for Mafia, but I'm still not sure if that's the best move right now. I do think that we've grown enough that we could expand a bit, but it might require putting some size limits on games.

    About enforcing against lurking: It's the game mod's responsibility to notify us about lurkers so that action can be taken. We (or at least I) don't have the time to keep track of who's playing in every game and who's not posting enough. A good mod should take on that responsibility.

    Of course, player history should be taken into account. If a normally active player is unable to participate once for some outside reason, it doesn't warrant probation. Once such behavior is continual, that player should certainly be placed on probation (or on ban if necessary).
  • #71
    Quote from fadeblue »
    Of course, player history should be taken into account. If a normally active player is unable to participate once for some outside reason, it doesn't warrant probation. Once such behavior is continual, that player should certainly be placed on probation (or on ban if necessary).
    That's why I support a common sense approach instead an objectification of the rules
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  • #72
    I'm very interested in reassessing the current game structure here, which is at the moment: 2 Normal Games, 1 Specialty, and 1 Newbie. I would like to put forth the following topics for discussion:

    1) Is there truly a need for distinguishing between specialty and normal games?
    On one hand, it allows for the more complex games to be run in a separate queue. On the other hand, the more complex games aren't necessarily the more interesting ones, and running all the games in the same queue means that those signing up to host normal games don't have to wait as long.

    2) Should we create a separate slot for 1 Mini (12 players or less)?
    This would provide an alternative for both players and mods, and theoretically shouldn't strain the player pool much. Also, it could be set for something even lower, like 10 or 7 players.

    I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts on these.
    Last edited by fadeblue: 11/22/2005 1:39:43 AM
  • #73
    Re Q1) Agree there isn't much need to distinguish. Still, if you're going to reform this the queue maybe wants reviewing anyway. Mafia signups get filled incredibly fast and the queue moves incredibly slow. Doesn't that seem like a case for changing the mechanism by which games start ? The "cannot play in more than 2 games" restriction seems like the almost only thing we need to regulate play. Why do we also need to limit the number of games running at once ? We'd still want the council OKing game starts, but that's not the same thing.

    Re Q2) Why a separate slot ? Why can't mods just size their games however they like, including mini-games ? Is it that you perceive this is the only way to persuade people to run smaller games ?
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  • #74
    Quote from fadeblue »
    I'm very interested in reassessing the current game structure here, which is at the moment: 2 Normal Games, 1 Specialty, and 1 Newbie. I would like to put forth the following topics for discussion:

    1) Is there truly a need for distinguishing between specialty and normal games?
    On one hand, it allows for the more complex games to be run in a separate queue. On the other hand, the more complex games aren't necessarily the more interesting ones, and running all the games in the same queue means that those signing up to host normal games don't have to wait as long.

    2) Should we create a separate slot for 1 Mini (12 players or less)?
    This would provide an alternative for both players and mods, and theoretically shouldn't strain the player pool much. Also, it could be set for something even lower, like 10 or 7 players.

    I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts on these.


    I thoroughly approve of both these measures.

    EDIT: As long as Sin City Mafia still gets to go next. Cool
    Last edited by Azrael: 11/22/2005 11:49:26 AM
  • #75
    Approved for both.
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