I just think running a Mini League game, regardless of when, will be difficult to score without skewing the results.
What about the scoring system would not be able to be applied correctly regardless of player size? I don't see how the results would be skewed one way or another.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Ask the right questions in the right way and truth is inevitable."
—Lazav
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Now that Checks and Balances is done, I look forward to seeing a score breakdown for each player. I suspect Town players are going to run away with the top scores, and not just because Town won.
Now that Checks and Balances is done, I look forward to seeing a score breakdown for each player. I suspect Town players are going to run away with the top scores, and not just because Town won.
I'm not sure why you are thinking this. Based on the point system and the lynchs that I was or was not involved in I see myself at either 0 or 1 point right now barring judge awards.
Now that Checks and Balances is done, I look forward to seeing a score breakdown for each player. I suspect Town players are going to run away with the top scores, and not just because Town won.
I'm not sure why you are thinking this. Based on the point system and the lynchs that I was or was not involved in I see myself at either 0 or 1 point right now barring judge awards.
That seems low. Probably a sign that the rubric should be adjusted, then - we were told that might happen.
I think I'm at 5 or maybe 7 myself, by the way, depending on whether my replacing in near the end of Day 2 was two days played before I joined, or only one:
+2 (or +4) replacement bonus
+3 for three night periods alive
+1 for the Jobie lynch
-1 for leaving the game without winning
Now that Checks and Balances is done, I look forward to seeing a score breakdown for each player. I suspect Town players are going to run away with the top scores, and not just because Town won.
I'm not sure why you are thinking this. Based on the point system and the lynchs that I was or was not involved in I see myself at either 0 or 1 point right now barring judge awards.
That seems low. Probably a sign that the rubric should be adjusted, then - we were told that might happen.
I think I'm at 5 or maybe 7 myself, by the way, depending on whether my replacing in near the end of Day 2 was two days played before I joined, or only one:
+2 (or +4) replacement bonus
+3 for three night periods alive
+1 for the Jobie lynch
-1 for leaving the game without winning
There's a lot of negative points. I probably have +10ish points, but I lose probably around the same amount from the scoring system to end up similar to Ahlyis Void (I haven't totalled up for myself though).
Also I just noticed that I would've gotten points for voting Gricky on the day of my lynch but I failed to, even though I called him as scum. Oh well.
There's a lot of negative points. I probably have +10ish points, but I lose probably around the same amount from the scoring system to end up similar to Ahlyis (I haven't totalled up for myself though).
Also I just noticed that I would've gotten points for voting Gricky on the day of my lynch but I failed to, even though I called him as scum. Oh well.
Buh?
Are you sure you meant me? I think I'm at around 11 points in the end.
There's a lot of negative points. I probably have +10ish points, but I lose probably around the same amount from the scoring system to end up similar to Ahlyis (I haven't totalled up for myself though).
Also I just noticed that I would've gotten points for voting Gricky on the day of my lynch but I failed to, even though I called him as scum. Oh well.
Buh?
Are you sure you meant me? I think I'm at around 11 points in the end.
Shoot screwed up who said what. Same score as Void, is what I meant.
WILL there be a post with the final scores from Checks and Balances? How about info about when/what the next League game will be? Is there some other thread I should be looking at for this info?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Mafia scoring and comments are well underway. Some of our judges will not have time to catch up until the weekend. There is a lot of data to sift through, comments to write up, and double checking by the judges to make sure everyone got the amount of points that they earned.
This is going to be a slower process than most would expect because the judges need to take into account every lynch, every night action, and every NK. It has been my job to document every single one of these things (and more) so that the judges have an easier time doing this. However, things do get slipped through the cracks (as has been seen a number of times in this very thread) and people have personal lives that need attending to as well.
Right now our number one priority is scoring and writing comments for everyone who qualifies. We will not be posting a vote for the next league game until this process is finished. In fact, we've been so busy qualifying and quantifying everything, we have a vague idea what is going to be voted on next but it is not set in stone.
If you have any questions, comments, or concerns about the end stage process and do not want to post them here, my inbox is always open. Part of my job is to act as a liaison between the judges and the players. If a point need to be brought up and you do not feel comfortable asking in a public thread, feel free to PM me.
Hopefully, as the Beta league goes on, turnaround will be shorter and shorter. However, this being our first game the judges are taking extra time to make sure everything is right instead of posting scores that may be faulty because of a rush.
I hope this clears some things up. Again, if you need anything, that's what I'm here for.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Yes, we are coming down to the wire. There has been much discussion about how we are going to rectify this in the months ahead. Having the holidays so close seems to have taken it's toll on getting scores and comments out. Some people will not receive comments until after the holiday; but EVERYONE will be scored before the clock strikes midnight.
Have a Happy Thanksgiving everyone. Grateful to be part of such a great community.
First and foremost, these scores are provisional and have not been finalized yet. However, in the interest of not pushing the deadline back further we are publishing them here so everyone can get a rough idea where they stand in the League:
I also feel that an explanation to what took us so long is in order. When Checks and Balances began, we split up the players into pods for each judge to track, score, and comment. We believed that this was a good thing so that every judge did not have to follow and scrutinize every single player. However, this turned out to be not the wisest of decisions in the long run. Each judge scored their pods individually and there was a big confusion as to how many points each player earned; this confusion was exacerbated by the fact that the rubric is qualitative and each judge had their own interpretation of the scoring system. The other mistake in this method was that if a judge had to take a break or something came up in their lives, the players in their pod had to be picked up by other judges. Again, this process seemed good at the beginning, but in hindsight we have seen the flaws in it.
The judges are currently looking deeper into the rubric to decide what needs to be changed and what needs to be clarified. As this is our first game scoring (and in the Beta season, no less), we are well aware of some of the inadequacies of the current rubric. We are also discussing how to fix the aforementioned problem of judge consistency. We will be as transparent as possible when changes are to be made to the rubric. I realize it is probably frustrating to be left in the dark for so long about this, so I will make it my responsibility to keep the channels of communication open from judges to players and players to judges.
If you have any questions, comments, and concerns feel free to post them here. If you wish to remain anonymous, as I have said before, my PM box is always open. Thank you for your patience in this process. It has been a learning experience for all of us and we hope to be able to provide a much faster turnaround as time goes on.
We're working on fixing up some of the finer points in scoring because we're all seeming to have different interpretations of the rubric - we will get back to you all on /actual/ final scores once discussion has wrapped up. Sorry for any delays or miscalculations.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Non-SK Neutral scoring system:
-1 point for leaving the game without fulfilling win condition.
+1 for each successful step towards win condition.
Bonus Points:
+2/day played before replacing in (max 6) for replacing in.
+2 for mod award.
+4 for first judge award.
+1 for any judge award after the first is given out.
Penalties:
-12 for (forced) replacing out/modkill for activity (gains no points or bonus after receiving this).
-8 for modkill for rule breaking (gains no points or bonus after receiving this).
-4 for replacing out voluntarily (gains no points or bonus after receiving this).
-4 for bad sportsmanship (flaming, trolling, etc.)(judges rule, mod nomination).
I don't see any penalties which would affect my score. And I'm assuming I got no bonuses. So my score should simply be 1 point per successful step towards my wincon and then minus 1 for not reaching my wincon.
All that leaves is how many steps towards my wincon did I make? Well, I wondered what constituted a "successful step towards win condition" from the start and asked...
Quote from ganderin_dan »
Quote from Ahlyis »
What is a "successful step towards win condition"? Is that each day I survive? Each person that gets killed while I am alive? Each Phase (Day/Night) that passes which I survive, regardless how many people do or don't get killed? Something else?
This is actually a pretty good question. I'm inclined to say that it's each day you survive. I'll run it by the team, though.
Quote from ganderin_dan »
At this point, it seems to be 1 point per each other player that dies while you are still alive. I'll keep you posted.
This was the last communication I received on this matter. And this is what I based my play around.
4. (L) Void 9. (L) Cyouni
11. Voxxicus**
Dead: (15/18) 0. Iso - Vanilla Town - Killed Night 0
8. (L) Foxlet (L) SharkFinnigan - Mafia Godfather - Lynched Day 1
6. (L) Kpaca* - Vanilla Town - Killed Night 1
7. (L) Reya Cookiebringer** - Mafia Rolecop - Lynched Day 2
13. (L) Dancing Mad* - Neutral Hitman - Killed Night 2
17. (L) MandersHex** - Vanilla Town - Killed Night 3
2. (L) Archmage Eternal*** - Town Cop - Killed Night 3
14. infectiousbaloth - Town Bulletproof - Lynched Day 4
12. (L) SilverSihhe -Town Redirector - Killed Night 4
1. (L) Emo_Pinata** RobRoy - Mafia Roleblocker - Lynched Day 5
16. (L) Deathjoey* (L) Raging Levine* - Town Jailer - Killed Night 5
18. (L) Jobie* - Town Angel - Killed Night 5
15. (L) TheIceMan** (L) Wheat_Grinder - Town Doctor - Lynched Day 6
5. (L) Ahlyis - Neutral Survivor - Killed Night 6
10. (L) Cyan - Town Gunsmith - Killed Night 6
3. (L) GrickyTimmick* - Mafia Ninja - Lynched Day 7[/spoiler]
* = Prod
According to that (and not counting Iso, which was a flavor kill and not a player kill), I outlasted 12 players before I was killed. My final score, before any mythical bonuses I can always dream of getting, should be 11.
Ahlyis, you are one of the players that we are working on rescoring. Your point total was much lower due to a misunderstanding of the rubric. Again, these scores are only provisional and we are working very hard to get the finalized scores back to the participants; judges are working to get the proper scores out as soon as possible. I don't know when this will be, but I do know we are actively discussing the disconnect of some of the player's scores -- yours included.
Apparently they went back to Days survived (which frankly is a lot more logical for a survivor, who doesn't care how many players are left at the end).
If they did...
1) It still doesn't make sense. I died Night 6. I should have 6 points for the days I lived minus 1 for the failure to meet wincon for a total of 5.
2) They TOLD ME that it was per player I outlasted and that they would TELL ME if that was going to change, which they never did.
3) I based my play at least partially on the info I was given. I'm terrible as a Self role. Part of the reason I claimed out of the blue like I did was simply to try to live as long as possible without worrying about the final wincon since I would get the most points simply for outlasting people. (It's also a big part of why I was willing to Townside no matter what the situation, because living longer was actually worth as much as or more than a win on an earlier day, with more people still alive). A change to how my role was going to be scored may very well have changed my entire strategy that game.
4) It's a ridiculous rubric. I lasted nearly to the end of the game and my max score is 5 effing points? Even if we had lynched Gricky day 6 for the Town win, my final score would be 8 fricking points? For winning the game and actually being alive at the end? 8 frickin points while others are looking at 15+? That's beyond "bad".
Ahlyis, you are one of the players that we are working on rescoring. Your point total was much lower due to a misunderstanding of the rubric. Again, these scores are only provisional and we are working very hard to get the finalized scores back to the participants; judges are working to get the proper scores out as soon as possible. I don't know when this will be, but I do know we are actively discussing the disconnect of some of the player's scores -- yours included.
Didn't see this before making my previous post.
While I'm certainly glad to hear that, I'll wait to see the "final" scores before commenting further.
Thank you for letting me know that my score is under further review. Hopefully the replay challenge will overturn the call on the field!
...which is why we are attempting to adjust the rubric to balance things out so we can address your concerns. Please be reminded that this is still the BETA league, and as such, things are subject to change, as well as the fact that all of this is volunteer work. I can assure you that all judges are in fierce discussion about how best to rectify the situation. Thank you for your patience.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
...which is why we are attempting to adjust the rubric to balance things out so we can address your concerns. Please be reminded that this is still the BETA league, and as such, things are subject to change, as well as the fact that all of this is volunteer work. I can assure you that all judges are in fierce discussion about how best to rectify the situation. Thank you for your patience.
I get that. I really do.
My big "problem" was that Ganderin told me that a per player outlasted rubric was going to be used and that I'd be updated if that changed. So when I saw 6 for my score, and it not at all clear that it wasn't expected to be my final score, I got a bit upset. Reasonably so I think.
EDIT: What I mean is that it wasn't clear my entire score was being recalculated. The earlier comments made it sound like there might be a few points here or there for some people's scores, not that any of the scores were thought to be completely wrong.
I had family distract me, and honestly didn't have time/forgot to just say in this thread "scores are being postponed until X" like I intended to around 2PM Thursday. Blame turkeys.
I apologize, and we appreciate all your guys' patience while we get this worked out. I'm confident this will be the only time we have issues of this fashion/magnitude.
Believe me, we understand your frustration, Ahly - which is why we're trying to remedy the problem. There was clearly some miscommunication between the judges and last-minute rushing due to holidays and IRL obligations. Our sincerest apologies.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
And on the other side of the coin, I totally understand Arn's wanting to be forward and prompt with everything we can. Trust me, he's going above and beyond what he needs to be doing with this position, and it's for everyone's benefit besides his own. He's doing as much as humanly imaginable to make this process go as quickly and smoothly as possible.
Thanks again for bearing with us while we work the kinks out.
I am initially surprised I had positive points, since I was the D1 lynch and had a question about it. Did I receive points for replacing in? If so, then maybe the rules on that should be clarified.
It states that "+2/day played before replacing in" for up to +6. But I replaced in Day 1, which was not a completed day, so I expected it to be 0, not +2.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Ask the right questions in the right way and truth is inevitable."
—Lazav
You happened to be in Seppels pile. I don't think he is ready yet.
Was I there too? Were we SUPPOSED to get PM's regarding our Scoring? I just thought the final scores and comments were going to be posted here.
Scratch that. I realize now, I did get pm's from you regarding my play, which is what I think is meant here. My "score" is something else. I got confoozed because Wheat referred to his score.
Okay, it's been a long wait, but we finally have final scores. I know comments have not gone out to everyone yet. We are working on this. However, I'm happy to announce we solved the problem of multiple judges and multiple scoring with an elegant solution: from here on out we are going to have one judge do all the scores for every game (including this one) for the rest of the league; this judge is KittyCupCake.
The rubric has been adjusted. This is the following rubric we are working with. This new rubric is what we are scoring on for this round. If you have any questions or comments, please feel free to post them here to get a judge response.
Townie Scoring System:
-3 points for being lynched.
-2 points for every townie death they participate in (through a lynch or a vig-like ability).
-1 points for every townie mislynch they did not take part in, but were alive for.
+1 point for every scum death they did not take part in, but were alive for.
+2 points for each unsuccessful end-of-day vote against scum (including Mafia, SK, or CL).
+4 points for every scum death they participate in (through a lynch, vig-like ability, or sharing of info gained from an investigative ability).
Mafia scoring system:
-1 point for leaving the game without fulfilling win condition.
+1 point for each night period they are alive for.
+1 point for every non-mafia lynch they participate in.
Survivor scoring system:
-2 points for leaving the game without fulfilling win condition.
+1 point for each day or night period survived.
SK scoring system:
-1 point for leaving the game without fulfilling win condition.
+1 point for each night period they are alive for.
+2 points for every threat's death they participate in (this is anyone that can kill them through a night action and the cop).
Hitman scoring system:
-1 point for leaving the game without fulfilling win condition.
+1 point for each night period they are alive for.
+2 points for every target that dies while the Hitman is alive.
Cult Leader scoring system:
-1 point for leaving the game without fulfilling win condition.
-1 point for a recruit dying
+2 for successfully recruiting a player
Post game scoring:
+2 for fulfilling any alternative/additional win conditions.
+4 points for townie win.
+4 for non-SK neutral fulfilling win condition.
+4 points for mafia win.
+8 points for SK win.
Bonus Points:
+2/day played before replacing in (max 6) for replacing in.
+2 for mod awards.
+1 for individual judge awards (5 total).
Penalties:
-12 for (forced) replacing out/modkill for activity (gains no points or bonus after receiving this).
-8 for modkill for rule breaking (gains no points or bonus after receiving this).
-4 for replacing out voluntarily (gains no points or bonus after receiving this).
-4 for bad sportsmanship (flaming, trolling, etc.)(judges rule, mod nomination).
And, thus with the new rubric and the new scoring method, the following scores are finalized for Checks & Balances.
Void: 14 Points
Voxxicus: 14 Points
Cyouni: 13 Points
Cyan: 13 Points
Archmage Eternal: 11 Points
Ahylis: 9 Points
Gricky Timmick: 9 Points
Infectious Baloth: 8 Points
MandersHex: 8 Points
SilverSihhe: 8 Points
Raging Levine: 6 Points
RobRoy: 6 Points
Kpaca: 5 Point
Wheat Grinder: 4 Points Dancing Mad: 3 Points SharkFinnigan: 1 Point
Reya Cookiebringer: 0 Points
Death Joey: -2 Points
Foxlet: -4 Points
Jobie: -7 Points
The Ice Man: -8 Points
Emo Pinata: -11 Points
If you have a question on your scoring, PM me or a judge.
Also, as I think this is going to be a major concern, the point totals for town went down slightly (I think I count one or two points for every town player) because we switched the +5 for a successful lynch to +4 to give an even advantage for Town as well as Scum.
Thank you for your patience in the delays (some of which are still ongoing).
I'm not sure how fair it is to change the scoring we were all playing by AFTER the game ends, but I suppose I'm in the minority there. Still, I've never heard of any other contest doing anything of the sort. Changing the rules going forward? Sure. Changing the rules and applying them retroactively against people? Never!
I say that as my honest opinion. It truly has nothing to do with my score. My score went from 11 (by my calculations) down to 9, but the top score went from 16 down to 14, so the scoring change had no effect on how far behind the leaders I am.
And I have absolutely no problem with the scoring rubric being changed as necessary for the benefit of the League. I just have a problem with those changes being applied retroactively after people played an entire game thinking they were working on one set of rules, only to then have them changed after the fact.
It completely erodes any confidence going forward. How am I supposed to gear my play around trying to win the league when I have no assurance that the actions I take which "should" score me X amount of points won't be retroactively changed once the game ends to instead LOSE me X points?!?!
We're all our own guinea pigs here, and just trying to figure these things out as we encounter problems along the way. I understand your concerns (and if this was a more, let's say, established competition, it'd be more than justifiable to complain about), and all we can say is, again, that you bear with us and help along the way if you see anything that needs changing.
We're just trying to do things in the way we think is most correct & fair.
I'm not sure how fair it is to change the scoring we were all playing by AFTER the game ends, but I suppose I'm in the minority there. Still, I've never heard of any other contest doing anything of the sort. Changing the rules going forward? Sure. Changing the rules and applying them retroactively against people? Never!
I say that as my honest opinion. It truly has nothing to do with my score. My score went from 11 (by my calculations) down to 9, but the top score went from 16 down to 14, so the scoring change had no effect on how far behind the leaders I am.
And I have absolutely no problem with the scoring rubric being changed as necessary for the benefit of the League. I just have a problem with those changes being applied retroactively after people played an entire game thinking they were working on one set of rules, only to then have them changed after the fact.
It completely erodes any confidence going forward. How am I supposed to gear my play around trying to win the league when I have no assurance that the actions I take which "should" score me X amount of points won't be retroactively changed once the game ends to instead LOSE me X points?!?!
I'm pretty sure that's the reason we called it the Beta season, because we want your play to count for something but we don't want to give off the impression that the scoring system is infallible.
I also remember explicitly saying that we would be tinkering with the rubric throughout the season for testing. Don't be upset! Retroactive changes in the beta season is a benefit to you. The alternative is not scoring at all, or throwing out your scores later, and no one wants that.
I'm pretty sure that's the reason we called it the Beta season, because we want your play to count for something but we don't want to give off the impression that the scoring system is infallible.
I also remember explicitly saying that we would be tinkering with the rubric throughout the season for testing. Don't be upset! Retroactive changes in the beta season is a benefit to you. The alternative is not scoring at all, or throwing out your scores later, and no one wants that.
I have no problem tinkering with the rubric as problems are found. Fix the problem and apply the change GOING FORWARD. What's wrong with that? Why does the change need to be applied retroactively? It's a BETA League. We all should expect there to be problems with various things and for those problems to be addressed as they are found. I still fail to see why any of that requires retroactive application of the changes.
By making changes apply retroactively you're already throwing out our scores in favor of scores YOU like better. You're saying, "Yes, I know you played according to a certain rubric, and we made no changes to that rubric as you played, but now that you're done playing and cannot possibly do anything to change it, we're going to score you according to a different rubric". How does THAT make any sense whatsoever? How are we supposed to try to "win" when there's no way for us to know whether we're playing well or not because our scores might be based off of anything and we won't even know what it is until after we've finished playing.
Why even post a fricking rubric at all? Why not just tell us to play, then give us our scores after according to whatever rubric you decide at that time to use? What point is there for us to play according to the posted rubric when, as we've just seen, the posted rubric is worthless?
In the end, Beta league or not, none of the arguments presented explains at all why the changes to the rubric needed to be applied retroactively.
When we get to game 6 and we've got scores from the first 5 games and it is decided that such-and-such action should be worth +2 points instead of only +1, should we expect THAT change to be retroactively applied to all of the League games as well? Where does it stop? Why not just tell us who you intend to have win right now and save us all the effort?
There's a reason why every major sport doesn't retroactively apply rule changes. There's a reason why new laws are never retroactively applied to punish people for doing things which were perfectly legal at the time they did them. I really cannot fathom why, just because this is a Beta League, you think this is somehow different in this regards.
I wanted to help with the League. It sounded like a really great idea. But I simply cannot stomach arbitrary changes being retroactively applied so that no matter what I or anyone else does, you guys can decide who you want to have as the winner, make the changes you need to accomplish that, and then retroactively apply those changes to make it so.
I'm not saying that you WILL do that. But by NOT adhering to the rubric you gave us and by making retroactive changes, that is EXACTLY the impression you are opening yourselves up to.
If retroactive changes to scores are going to continue to happen, please remove me from the league.
I'm sorry for having wasted everyone's time, but I simply cannot continue to participate in something I abhor so greatly. The decision to use retroactive scoring is one I simply cannot accept.
I do wish to thank everyone for the time and effort that has been done. I don't wish to belittle that. I know that you are trying to do what you believe is "right". I just cannot agree with you on it.
I'm pretty sure that's the reason we called it the Beta season, because we want your play to count for something but we don't want to give off the impression that the scoring system is infallible.
I also remember explicitly saying that we would be tinkering with the rubric throughout the season for testing. Don't be upset! Retroactive changes in the beta season is a benefit to you. The alternative is not scoring at all, or throwing out your scores later, and no one wants that.
I have no problem tinkering with the rubric as problems are found. Fix the problem and apply the change GOING FORWARD. What's wrong with that? Why does the change need to be applied retroactively? It's a BETA League. We all should expect there to be problems with various things and for those problems to be addressed as they are found. I still fail to see why any of that requires retroactive application of the changes.
It's so that your score remains relevant later. If we were just going to throw them out or discount them later, then there would be no point to caring about scores right now. If scores don't matter right now, that provides less incentive for people to play the testing season.
By making changes apply retroactively you're already throwing out our scores in favor of scores YOU like better. You're saying, "Yes, I know you played according to a certain rubric, and we made no changes to that rubric as you played, but now that you're done playing and cannot possibly do anything to change it, we're going to score you according to a different rubric". How does THAT make any sense whatsoever? How are we supposed to try to "win" when there's no way for us to know whether we're playing well or not because our scores might be based off of anything and we won't even know what it is until after we've finished playing.
This is definitely a possibility and one we will guard against when the rubric goes official. Our goal is to be as transparent as possible and give the league players the option to choose their own measuring stick with regards to scoring. Elements working against that goal are thrown out or minimized. We've always made the rubric public and will likely have score breakdowns public in the future. It's not our job to come up with a fair rubric; that has been and always will be the players' job. Our job is to make sure that rubric is used and enforced. For this game, we saw discrepancies and situational potholes that needed to be fixed. It's not entirely fair, but we did it in the spirit of fairness and convenience so everyone could get their score. We made changes and made them public information. For more details, contact KCC who has been doing all the scoring work.
Why even post a fricking rubric at all? Why not just tell us to play, then give us our scores after according to whatever rubric you decide at that time to use? What point is there for us to play according to the posted rubric when, as we've just seen, the posted rubric is worthless?
It's not a completely new rubric; it's in stages of evolution as we see games play out, and only for this season. It's there because players wanted it there and decided ahead of time what they thought were important scoring moments. The changes made (iirc) were done in order to keep random alignment fair, so that a neutral might have roughly the same opportunities as a town or mafia.
In the end, Beta league or not, none of the arguments presented explains at all why the changes to the rubric needed to be applied retroactively.
Again, it's so that your beta score is just as relevant as your official score and can carry forward. If this weren't the case, there wouldn't be much of a point of scoring at all and no one would be interested.
When we get to game 6 and we've got scores from the first 5 games and it is decided that such-and-such action should be worth +2 points instead of only +1, should we expect THAT change to be retroactively applied to all of the League games as well? Where does it stop? Why not just tell us who you intend to have win right now and save us all the effort?
Ideally, yes; all 5 games would be adjusted. This rubric tinkering ends when Beta season ends. We do not choose winners (the players do that through discussing the rubric); we only tabulate scores and recommend areas of improvement for players.
There's a reason why every major sport doesn't retroactively apply rule changes. There's a reason why new laws are never retroactively applied to punish people for doing things which were perfectly legal at the time they did them. I really cannot fathom why, just because this is a Beta League, you think this is somehow different in this regards.
I wanted to help with the League. It sounded like a really great idea. But I simply cannot stomach arbitrary changes being retroactively applied so that no matter what I or anyone else does, you guys can decide who you want to have as the winner, make the changes you need to accomplish that, and then retroactively apply those changes to make it so.
I'm not saying that you WILL do that. But by NOT adhering to the rubric you gave us and by making retroactive changes, that is EXACTLY the impression you are opening yourselves up to.
If retroactive changes to scores are going to continue to happen, please remove me from the league.
I'm sorry for having wasted everyone's time, but I simply cannot continue to participate in something I abhor so greatly. The decision to use retroactive scoring is one I simply cannot accept.
I do wish to thank everyone for the time and effort that has been done. I don't wish to belittle that. I know that you are trying to do what you believe is "right". I just cannot agree with you on it.
I think you're really just misunderstanding the situation. The scoring rubric needs to be malleable while we test it. The decisions that players make now should have an impact on their overall performance score (and help show where improvements are happening). Retroactive changes fixes both of these problems, up to a certain point as you've stated. It's not something we like doing, but it's worth doing to preserve the relevance of the stats while still perfecting the measuring devices.
If you still have concerns, please voice them here or PM one of the judges. We're here to serve you guys, not ourselves, so your feedback is appreciated on how to make the league a better system. If you have specific scoring questions, contact KittyCupCake. If you still are sure you want to leave the league, contact our secretary Arnnaria.
I'm not from the league, I really don't want to involve myself in any trouble, but I feel the urge to step in and say Ahlyis is 100% correct about everything regarding this, and it's incredible people aren't understanding his point, it's so clear.
He's not:
a)Saying he was robbed of points.
b)Saying the new rubric is unfair or the last one was better.
c)Saying the judges are trying to game the system.
The only thing he's saying is that retroactively changing rules in the middle of the game is the same as opening the pandora's box of badness. And it's all true, this is unheard of in this planet and defy the laws of physics. Just because it's in beta it's yet another reason for NOT changing the rubric after the game was finished, as the points will be reset eventually, they are worth much if anything, they are just an estimative of good play and the rubric is expected to change great lengths in the future anyway.
I agree it's perfectly fine if the rubric is undisclosed only to be revealed at the endgame, but saying the rubric is X and change it after the game ends is a big no-no. My opinion is that this new rubric to be used in the next games, but for the past one the previous rubric is to be used.
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
The points for Checks and Balances existed ONLY for the purpose of determining if the current set of points was fair and balanced.
I fully agree that retroactive changes should be, at the very least, put to a vote when the real League begins, but while in beta I don't think fighting about it will help anyone.
I'm totally fine with disallowing retroactive changes in favor of starting fresh with a new season and perfected rubric, but that was not what was agreed on prior to starting. Everyone seemed okay with getting to keep their scores. Wiping works too and it's less work, but I figured players would rather keep their hard earned scores.
I'm assuming everyone understands why retroactive scoring allows those scores to be kept into the official league. But what I'm also hearing is that some players would rather not have scores at all until beta ends or have them wiped. I wish you had said this during the planning stages, as this is what this thread was made for. But it's not to late to fix, if the majority of league players prefer an alternative solution. We can always poll it and make changes.
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What about the scoring system would not be able to be applied correctly regardless of player size? I don't see how the results would be skewed one way or another.
—Lazav
_______________________________________________
Mafia Stats
Summary:
Total Win %: 40%
Total Scum Win %: 60%
Total Town Win %: 20%
Total Neutral Win %: 0%
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'm not sure why you are thinking this. Based on the point system and the lynchs that I was or was not involved in I see myself at either 0 or 1 point right now barring judge awards.
That seems low. Probably a sign that the rubric should be adjusted, then - we were told that might happen.
I think I'm at 5 or maybe 7 myself, by the way, depending on whether my replacing in near the end of Day 2 was two days played before I joined, or only one:
+2 (or +4) replacement bonus
+3 for three night periods alive
+1 for the Jobie lynch
-1 for leaving the game without winning
There's a lot of negative points. I probably have +10ish points, but I lose probably around the same amount from the scoring system to end up similar to
AhlyisVoid (I haven't totalled up for myself though).Also I just noticed that I would've gotten points for voting Gricky on the day of my lynch but I failed to, even though I called him as scum. Oh well.
Buh?
Are you sure you meant me? I think I'm at around 11 points in the end.
Shoot screwed up who said what. Same score as Void, is what I meant.
The next League game will be voted on once we iron out everything from C&B.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
They hate us cause they ain't us.
This is going to be a slower process than most would expect because the judges need to take into account every lynch, every night action, and every NK. It has been my job to document every single one of these things (and more) so that the judges have an easier time doing this. However, things do get slipped through the cracks (as has been seen a number of times in this very thread) and people have personal lives that need attending to as well.
Right now our number one priority is scoring and writing comments for everyone who qualifies. We will not be posting a vote for the next league game until this process is finished. In fact, we've been so busy qualifying and quantifying everything, we have a vague idea what is going to be voted on next but it is not set in stone.
If you have any questions, comments, or concerns about the end stage process and do not want to post them here, my inbox is always open. Part of my job is to act as a liaison between the judges and the players. If a point need to be brought up and you do not feel comfortable asking in a public thread, feel free to PM me.
Hopefully, as the Beta league goes on, turnaround will be shorter and shorter. However, this being our first game the judges are taking extra time to make sure everything is right instead of posting scores that may be faulty because of a rush.
I hope this clears some things up. Again, if you need anything, that's what I'm here for.
When can the League Players expect the scoring?
I saw Arn's post about this weekend and judges getting caught up, but I am hoping for something more concrete if that is possible.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Have a Happy Thanksgiving everyone. Grateful to be part of such a great community.
Voxxicus: 16 Points
Void: 16 Points
Cyouni: 15 Points
Archmage Eternal: 13 Points
Cyan: 12 Points
Infectious Baloth: 11 Points
SilverSihhe: 11 Points
MandersHex: 9 Points
Gricky Timmick: 8 Points
RobRoy: 7 Points
Ahylis: 6 Points
Raging Levine: 6 Points
Wheat Grinder: 5 Points
Dancing Mad: 2 Points
Kpaca: 1 Point
The Ice Man: 1 Point
SharkFinnigan: 1 Point
Death Joey: 0 Points
Reya Cookiebringer: 0 Points
Emo Pinata: -1 Points
Foxlet: -4 Points
Jobie: -7 Points
I also feel that an explanation to what took us so long is in order. When Checks and Balances began, we split up the players into pods for each judge to track, score, and comment. We believed that this was a good thing so that every judge did not have to follow and scrutinize every single player. However, this turned out to be not the wisest of decisions in the long run. Each judge scored their pods individually and there was a big confusion as to how many points each player earned; this confusion was exacerbated by the fact that the rubric is qualitative and each judge had their own interpretation of the scoring system. The other mistake in this method was that if a judge had to take a break or something came up in their lives, the players in their pod had to be picked up by other judges. Again, this process seemed good at the beginning, but in hindsight we have seen the flaws in it.
The judges are currently looking deeper into the rubric to decide what needs to be changed and what needs to be clarified. As this is our first game scoring (and in the Beta season, no less), we are well aware of some of the inadequacies of the current rubric. We are also discussing how to fix the aforementioned problem of judge consistency. We will be as transparent as possible when changes are to be made to the rubric. I realize it is probably frustrating to be left in the dark for so long about this, so I will make it my responsibility to keep the channels of communication open from judges to players and players to judges.
If you have any questions, comments, and concerns feel free to post them here. If you wish to remain anonymous, as I have said before, my PM box is always open. Thank you for your patience in this process. It has been a learning experience for all of us and we hope to be able to provide a much faster turnaround as time goes on.
Trust me, not complaining.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I don't see any penalties which would affect my score. And I'm assuming I got no bonuses. So my score should simply be 1 point per successful step towards my wincon and then minus 1 for not reaching my wincon.
All that leaves is how many steps towards my wincon did I make? Well, I wondered what constituted a "successful step towards win condition" from the start and asked...
This was the last communication I received on this matter. And this is what I based my play around.
According to that (and not counting Iso, which was a flavor kill and not a player kill), I outlasted 12 players before I was killed. My final score, before any mythical bonuses I can always dream of getting, should be 11.
Why did I get 6 points?
Ahlyis, you are one of the players that we are working on rescoring. Your point total was much lower due to a misunderstanding of the rubric. Again, these scores are only provisional and we are working very hard to get the finalized scores back to the participants; judges are working to get the proper scores out as soon as possible. I don't know when this will be, but I do know we are actively discussing the disconnect of some of the player's scores -- yours included.
If they did...
1) It still doesn't make sense. I died Night 6. I should have 6 points for the days I lived minus 1 for the failure to meet wincon for a total of 5.
2) They TOLD ME that it was per player I outlasted and that they would TELL ME if that was going to change, which they never did.
3) I based my play at least partially on the info I was given. I'm terrible as a Self role. Part of the reason I claimed out of the blue like I did was simply to try to live as long as possible without worrying about the final wincon since I would get the most points simply for outlasting people. (It's also a big part of why I was willing to Townside no matter what the situation, because living longer was actually worth as much as or more than a win on an earlier day, with more people still alive). A change to how my role was going to be scored may very well have changed my entire strategy that game.
4) It's a ridiculous rubric. I lasted nearly to the end of the game and my max score is 5 effing points? Even if we had lynched Gricky day 6 for the Town win, my final score would be 8 fricking points? For winning the game and actually being alive at the end? 8 frickin points while others are looking at 15+? That's beyond "bad".
Didn't see this before making my previous post.
While I'm certainly glad to hear that, I'll wait to see the "final" scores before commenting further.
Thank you for letting me know that my score is under further review. Hopefully the replay challenge will overturn the call on the field!
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I get that. I really do.
My big "problem" was that Ganderin told me that a per player outlasted rubric was going to be used and that I'd be updated if that changed. So when I saw 6 for my score, and it not at all clear that it wasn't expected to be my final score, I got a bit upset. Reasonably so I think.
EDIT: What I mean is that it wasn't clear my entire score was being recalculated. The earlier comments made it sound like there might be a few points here or there for some people's scores, not that any of the scores were thought to be completely wrong.
I apologize, and we appreciate all your guys' patience while we get this worked out. I'm confident this will be the only time we have issues of this fashion/magnitude.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Thanks again for bearing with us while we work the kinks out.
It states that "+2/day played before replacing in" for up to +6. But I replaced in Day 1, which was not a completed day, so I expected it to be 0, not +2.
—Lazav
_______________________________________________
Mafia Stats
Summary:
Total Win %: 40%
Total Scum Win %: 60%
Total Town Win %: 20%
Total Neutral Win %: 0%
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I'm pretty sure you should have >0 points. Arnn put the initial 9 points there.
And it may not be official, but I would definitely disagree if you got 0 points and I got 1.
—Lazav
_______________________________________________
Mafia Stats
Summary:
Total Win %: 40%
Total Scum Win %: 60%
Total Town Win %: 20%
Total Neutral Win %: 0%
Oh, I didn't see that by Arn. I was going by Kraj PMing me that I got 0 points.
I'll wait for the final tally/explanation.
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Come join ours!!
We even have Mafia!!
I'll just butt in here and say that perhaps Kraj meant you got 0 MOD (bonus) points.
Was I there too? Were we SUPPOSED to get PM's regarding our Scoring? I just thought the final scores and comments were going to be posted here.Scratch that. I realize now, I did get pm's from you regarding my play, which is what I think is meant here. My "score" is something else. I got confoozed because Wheat referred to his score.
The rubric has been adjusted. This is the following rubric we are working with. This new rubric is what we are scoring on for this round. If you have any questions or comments, please feel free to post them here to get a judge response.
-3 points for being lynched.
-2 points for every townie death they participate in (through a lynch or a vig-like ability).
-1 points for every townie mislynch they did not take part in, but were alive for.
+1 point for every scum death they did not take part in, but were alive for.
+2 points for each unsuccessful end-of-day vote against scum (including Mafia, SK, or CL).
+4 points for every scum death they participate in (through a lynch, vig-like ability, or sharing of info gained from an investigative ability).
Mafia scoring system:
-1 point for leaving the game without fulfilling win condition.
+1 point for each night period they are alive for.
+1 point for every non-mafia lynch they participate in.
Survivor scoring system:
-2 points for leaving the game without fulfilling win condition.
+1 point for each day or night period survived.
SK scoring system:
-1 point for leaving the game without fulfilling win condition.
+1 point for each night period they are alive for.
+2 points for every threat's death they participate in (this is anyone that can kill them through a night action and the cop).
Hitman scoring system:
-1 point for leaving the game without fulfilling win condition.
+1 point for each night period they are alive for.
+2 points for every target that dies while the Hitman is alive.
Cult Leader scoring system:
-1 point for leaving the game without fulfilling win condition.
-1 point for a recruit dying
+2 for successfully recruiting a player
Post game scoring:
+2 for fulfilling any alternative/additional win conditions.
+4 points for townie win.
+4 for non-SK neutral fulfilling win condition.
+4 points for mafia win.
+8 points for SK win.
Bonus Points:
+2/day played before replacing in (max 6) for replacing in.
+2 for mod awards.
+1 for individual judge awards (5 total).
Penalties:
-12 for (forced) replacing out/modkill for activity (gains no points or bonus after receiving this).
-8 for modkill for rule breaking (gains no points or bonus after receiving this).
-4 for replacing out voluntarily (gains no points or bonus after receiving this).
-4 for bad sportsmanship (flaming, trolling, etc.)(judges rule, mod nomination).
And, thus with the new rubric and the new scoring method, the following scores are finalized for Checks & Balances.
Void: 14 Points
Voxxicus: 14 Points
Cyouni: 13 Points
Cyan: 13 Points
Archmage Eternal: 11 Points
Ahylis: 9 Points
Gricky Timmick: 9 Points
Infectious Baloth: 8 Points
MandersHex: 8 Points
SilverSihhe: 8 Points
Raging Levine: 6 Points
RobRoy: 6 Points
Kpaca: 5 Point
Wheat Grinder: 4 Points
Dancing Mad: 3 Points
SharkFinnigan: 1 Point
Reya Cookiebringer: 0 Points
Death Joey: -2 Points
Foxlet: -4 Points
Jobie: -7 Points
The Ice Man: -8 Points
Emo Pinata: -11 Points
If you have a question on your scoring, PM me or a judge.
Also, as I think this is going to be a major concern, the point totals for town went down slightly (I think I count one or two points for every town player) because we switched the +5 for a successful lynch to +4 to give an even advantage for Town as well as Scum.
Thank you for your patience in the delays (some of which are still ongoing).
I say that as my honest opinion. It truly has nothing to do with my score. My score went from 11 (by my calculations) down to 9, but the top score went from 16 down to 14, so the scoring change had no effect on how far behind the leaders I am.
And I have absolutely no problem with the scoring rubric being changed as necessary for the benefit of the League. I just have a problem with those changes being applied retroactively after people played an entire game thinking they were working on one set of rules, only to then have them changed after the fact.
It completely erodes any confidence going forward. How am I supposed to gear my play around trying to win the league when I have no assurance that the actions I take which "should" score me X amount of points won't be retroactively changed once the game ends to instead LOSE me X points?!?!
Basically this.
We're all our own guinea pigs here, and just trying to figure these things out as we encounter problems along the way. I understand your concerns (and if this was a more, let's say, established competition, it'd be more than justifiable to complain about), and all we can say is, again, that you bear with us and help along the way if you see anything that needs changing.
We're just trying to do things in the way we think is most correct & fair.
I'm pretty sure that's the reason we called it the Beta season, because we want your play to count for something but we don't want to give off the impression that the scoring system is infallible.
I also remember explicitly saying that we would be tinkering with the rubric throughout the season for testing. Don't be upset! Retroactive changes in the beta season is a benefit to you. The alternative is not scoring at all, or throwing out your scores later, and no one wants that.
I have no problem tinkering with the rubric as problems are found. Fix the problem and apply the change GOING FORWARD. What's wrong with that? Why does the change need to be applied retroactively? It's a BETA League. We all should expect there to be problems with various things and for those problems to be addressed as they are found. I still fail to see why any of that requires retroactive application of the changes.
By making changes apply retroactively you're already throwing out our scores in favor of scores YOU like better. You're saying, "Yes, I know you played according to a certain rubric, and we made no changes to that rubric as you played, but now that you're done playing and cannot possibly do anything to change it, we're going to score you according to a different rubric". How does THAT make any sense whatsoever? How are we supposed to try to "win" when there's no way for us to know whether we're playing well or not because our scores might be based off of anything and we won't even know what it is until after we've finished playing.
Why even post a fricking rubric at all? Why not just tell us to play, then give us our scores after according to whatever rubric you decide at that time to use? What point is there for us to play according to the posted rubric when, as we've just seen, the posted rubric is worthless?
In the end, Beta league or not, none of the arguments presented explains at all why the changes to the rubric needed to be applied retroactively.
When we get to game 6 and we've got scores from the first 5 games and it is decided that such-and-such action should be worth +2 points instead of only +1, should we expect THAT change to be retroactively applied to all of the League games as well? Where does it stop? Why not just tell us who you intend to have win right now and save us all the effort?
There's a reason why every major sport doesn't retroactively apply rule changes. There's a reason why new laws are never retroactively applied to punish people for doing things which were perfectly legal at the time they did them. I really cannot fathom why, just because this is a Beta League, you think this is somehow different in this regards.
I wanted to help with the League. It sounded like a really great idea. But I simply cannot stomach arbitrary changes being retroactively applied so that no matter what I or anyone else does, you guys can decide who you want to have as the winner, make the changes you need to accomplish that, and then retroactively apply those changes to make it so.
I'm not saying that you WILL do that. But by NOT adhering to the rubric you gave us and by making retroactive changes, that is EXACTLY the impression you are opening yourselves up to.
If retroactive changes to scores are going to continue to happen, please remove me from the league.
I'm sorry for having wasted everyone's time, but I simply cannot continue to participate in something I abhor so greatly. The decision to use retroactive scoring is one I simply cannot accept.
I do wish to thank everyone for the time and effort that has been done. I don't wish to belittle that. I know that you are trying to do what you believe is "right". I just cannot agree with you on it.
While the League is in beta, the points are made up and do not matter.
I'm going to ask a question, please do not take it the wrong way: Do you understand what beta means?
It's so that your score remains relevant later. If we were just going to throw them out or discount them later, then there would be no point to caring about scores right now. If scores don't matter right now, that provides less incentive for people to play the testing season.
This is definitely a possibility and one we will guard against when the rubric goes official. Our goal is to be as transparent as possible and give the league players the option to choose their own measuring stick with regards to scoring. Elements working against that goal are thrown out or minimized. We've always made the rubric public and will likely have score breakdowns public in the future. It's not our job to come up with a fair rubric; that has been and always will be the players' job. Our job is to make sure that rubric is used and enforced. For this game, we saw discrepancies and situational potholes that needed to be fixed. It's not entirely fair, but we did it in the spirit of fairness and convenience so everyone could get their score. We made changes and made them public information. For more details, contact KCC who has been doing all the scoring work.
It's not a completely new rubric; it's in stages of evolution as we see games play out, and only for this season. It's there because players wanted it there and decided ahead of time what they thought were important scoring moments. The changes made (iirc) were done in order to keep random alignment fair, so that a neutral might have roughly the same opportunities as a town or mafia.
Again, it's so that your beta score is just as relevant as your official score and can carry forward. If this weren't the case, there wouldn't be much of a point of scoring at all and no one would be interested.
Ideally, yes; all 5 games would be adjusted. This rubric tinkering ends when Beta season ends. We do not choose winners (the players do that through discussing the rubric); we only tabulate scores and recommend areas of improvement for players.
I think you're really just misunderstanding the situation. The scoring rubric needs to be malleable while we test it. The decisions that players make now should have an impact on their overall performance score (and help show where improvements are happening). Retroactive changes fixes both of these problems, up to a certain point as you've stated. It's not something we like doing, but it's worth doing to preserve the relevance of the stats while still perfecting the measuring devices.
If you still have concerns, please voice them here or PM one of the judges. We're here to serve you guys, not ourselves, so your feedback is appreciated on how to make the league a better system. If you have specific scoring questions, contact KittyCupCake. If you still are sure you want to leave the league, contact our secretary Arnnaria.
He's not:
a)Saying he was robbed of points.
b)Saying the new rubric is unfair or the last one was better.
c)Saying the judges are trying to game the system.
The only thing he's saying is that retroactively changing rules in the middle of the game is the same as opening the pandora's box of badness. And it's all true, this is unheard of in this planet and defy the laws of physics. Just because it's in beta it's yet another reason for NOT changing the rubric after the game was finished, as the points will be reset eventually, they are worth much if anything, they are just an estimative of good play and the rubric is expected to change great lengths in the future anyway.
I agree it's perfectly fine if the rubric is undisclosed only to be revealed at the endgame, but saying the rubric is X and change it after the game ends is a big no-no. My opinion is that this new rubric to be used in the next games, but for the past one the previous rubric is to be used.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
I fully agree that retroactive changes should be, at the very least, put to a vote when the real League begins, but while in beta I don't think fighting about it will help anyone.
I'm assuming everyone understands why retroactive scoring allows those scores to be kept into the official league. But what I'm also hearing is that some players would rather not have scores at all until beta ends or have them wiped. I wish you had said this during the planning stages, as this is what this thread was made for. But it's not to late to fix, if the majority of league players prefer an alternative solution. We can always poll it and make changes.