[#73] Disney Villains Mafia: Game Over - Mafia Victory

  • #626
    Quote from Incognito
    Nyxu, one vote on you and you finally post content.

    You do realize that you're independently scummy, right?

    After thinking about this game for a couple of hours, I'm inclined to trust my initial gut read and vote Wheat_Grinder. There are a couple of scattered paranoid thoughts, but I'm willing to quell those until we lynch him.

    Ugh.

    I feel like /anyone/ could be scum at this point, and I'm also fearful that the Wheat/Cantrip dichotomy is going to backfire.

    *bites lip*

    I'm ready to vote Wheat whenever, but preferably this week.


    Been trying to post content since before you voted.

    I only just found the thread to pull.

    If the suspicion on me was exclusively because I'm "Independently scummy", people wouldn't be justifying it with WG's flip. This is what I'm trying to point out. You actually stacked a case up. Swishh is OMGUSing hard, but a lot of what I'm seeing? "If WG flips X, then Nyxu is probably Scum"

    So, @ Anyone who seems to think they need a WG flip to call me scum: Why?
  • #627
    Quote from Wheat_Grinder
    Why are you asking me?


    Maybe because you're his scumbuddy?

    (While I believe it to be true, this is merely a joke.)

    All joking aside, I didn't like that he chose to ask the question that way because it does reek of asking for approval. And thus I'm brought back to MRH making bad posts but being attacked by a player who's been playing well all game, but who I most suspect as scum (you), with said suspicion primarily based on your really bad attack on MRH. Slant
    Quote from Wheat »
    Annorax made a bad post, and you called him on it. It doesn't feel right that a single player participating in two quick wagons would distract from that. But I don't know that we're getting anywhere on this line of discussion.

    I was seeing bad posts from nearly *everyone* at that point with two quickwagons. I don't like to fight multiple battles at once.

    Hmm, I have to admit that this fits your behavior in the other game I've played with you.
    Quote from Wheat »
    Fortunately for review, he only made 22 posts all game, and only 12 of them D1 (before you voted him D2). In those 12 posts, he interacts with you exactly twice. Once in his first post of the game, where he RVS-votes you, and once where he says that you were right about his play history (see below for more on this). So, no, he didn't attack you until you bussed him on D2. Way to leave yourself an out, though, with "without going back to look for it."

    I stand corrected then.

    I gave myself that out because I knew it would make you do the work for me to prove me wrong and I'm lazy.

    Facepalm You do know that laziness is more common in scum, right? Scum are perfectly happy to make generalizations and vague references with backdoors, while Town have to verify things or risk being curb-stomped by scum.
    Quote from Wheat »
    Making bad assumptions has gotten me in trouble before. Lynch all liars, on the other hand, tends to work a lot better.

    Mmm? Who's lying about what now?

    You're lying about MRH's voting "pattern" and using that lie to label him "certain scum".
    Quote from Wheat »
    Additional: lynch all liars backfires a lot.

    Taken with a grain of sense, I find it works fairly well.
    Quote from Wheat »
    Additional additional: I'm not a fan of adding words to quotes that weren't originally there, from a readability standpoint.

    Yeah, neither am I, really, but sometimes it adds the perfect emphasis.
    Quote from Wheat »
    ...but no matter how much you might think they're townie, you don't know, so how can you extrapolate from that??? On that note, remind me what cleared swishh for you?

    I can extrapolate from it when it supports itself with internal consistency.

    I would argue that you don't have enough knowledge about alignments to establish consistency.
    Quote from Wheat »
    I can't remember and I need to catch up in another game. Quote this so that I look for it next time, if you will?

    Keepin' you accountable, at your request.
    Quote from Wheat »
    And I'm saying that I think you're more experienced than to glance at a series of votecounts and make the (really bad) assumption that a quick glance will provide insightful "proof" that a player is scum. Not to mention, you know, that I've proven (yes, really) that it wasn't a pattern.

    Really? Because that's pretty much exactly how I caught kill-joy in Basic 69.

    Well OK it was via use of interaction tables but it paints the same picture as the votecounts.

    Interaction tables =/= Votecounts. Interaction tables have been compiled through tallying of specific events. Votecounts are ongoing and are provided at (mostly) random times throughout the game, so not only is there often repetitive information (which can't be mistaken for "patterns"), but there are often vote/unvote actions that aren't recorded at all. Votecounts can provide you with indications to be researched, but making assertions off of a list of unanalyzed votecounts is scummy.
    Quote from Wheat »
    If we accept that you're town (because he didn't attack you, either). Call me crazy, but I just can't take your word for that.


    WHY

    DO

    YOU

    THINK

    I

    AM

    FINE

    WITH

    BEING

    LYNCHED.

    BECAUSE.

    YOU.

    ARE.

    FRONTING.

    TOWN.

    IN.

    AN.

    ATTEMPT.

    TO.

    PREVENT.

    THAT.

    LYNCH.

    Repeatedly saying "I'm so town that I will sacrifice myself to prove my point" reinforces the idea in your reader's minds that "you're town!" But I don't believe that you're really ok with your lynch.
    Quote from Wheat »
    Not to mention that we don't know the alignment of a player he did attack (MTG).


    Dude MTG is the most townie player in the game right now besides Incognito.

    Townie players can be scum; see TMCT in Steins;Gate.
    Quote from Wheat »
    Wheat, I didn't see where you made that assertion; do you have any idea what Annorax was referring to when he said you were "right"?

    In 116 I post "I know you've played before, but how often?" and in RVS (post 4) I voted him for modding my first game on the site. I think those two ideas combined in his head.

    Eyebrow This is certainly minor, but it's another drop in the bucket.
    Quote from Nyxu
    Hm, that double-question-mark shouldn't be there. I edited the wording while posting and must've habitually tagged in a ?.

    This is not a post in your favor. Scum are more prone to EWPing errors and are usually much more self-conscious of those errors. I seriously doubt that anyone would have noticed the double question mark if you hadn't felt the need to draw attention to it.

    @All: I'm male.
  • #628
    So does that mean that Incognito's double-please is scummy?
  • #629
    Quote from Nyxu

    So, @ Anyone who seems to think they need a WG flip to call me scum: Why?


    My read was: if WG. Flipped scum, Nyxu was possibility. That hopefully answering your question.

    Quote from Nyxu
    So I'm suspect if wheat flips town, and suspect if he flips scum?
    In before wheat is neutral survivor because Odds don't add up

    First off, please explain the bolded. Not sure what you are trying to say.
    What you posted doesn't reflect: my first post that had reads not having you connected at all to WG. (When i duct taped you to him). The second concluded with:
    Quote from MTG~DDS
    Strongest case is against WG. I think our best course today is WG. If he flips town, Cantrip/MRH look bad. Scum flip my best bet is Nyxu, mainly PoE though.
    Which doesn't state that either. Why the extreme defensiveness, when the accusations really weren't there?

    Nor does it reflect what Incognito posted:
    Quote from Incognito

    Conclusion: I feel like Nyxu is scummy - he's contributed stone-nothing this game, and tried to brush off pointing out odd things (such as "using my quote to add more weight" and "color coding reads" as scummy. Not to mention his Annorax vote is terrible because he's said zero on Annorax at that point.

    I still want Wheat lynched because a lot of my reads on Nyxu are tied to my read on Wheat, but if Wheat flips scum I feel like Nyxu is our last scum.

    My understanding of what Incognito posted was he had similar feelings on it.

    There were other posts, but two quick ones:
    Quote from MTG~DDS

    Post 379 - WG - Defends Nyxu twice in the same post. "replace Nyxu with Annorax" in scum team list. Also, doesn't think he's scum, but admits he was lurking and no further defense. Claims he will be worried about Nyxu if he continues to lurk...but not now. Possible indication of Nyxu/WG.

    Post 381 - WG - Defends Sixed. Doesn't think he is scum, but no reasons given. Why not just leave it at Null read? Why go so far as to say "not scum"? Another point for possible Nyxu/WG.

    Were a couple of posting interactions that landed to feeling that Nyxu/WG team was a possibility.

    @Incognito: I agree the Cantrip/Wheat dichotomy needs resolution before we can really progress. Question is, you feel good moving ahead now? Do we have enough to go on tomorrow?

    Quote from Wheat_Grinder

    If we accept that you're town (because he didn't attack you, either). Call me crazy, but I just can't take your word for that.


    WHY

    DO

    YOU

    THINK

    I

    AM

    FINE

    WITH

    BEING

    LYNCHED.

    If WG Town flip, we have his reads and his revealed alignment will help confirm. WG lynch looks like the right play. I'm going to read back through to make sure all my questions were adequately answered. Assuming I find no discrepancies that cannot be rectified, ready to vote.

    @Cantrip: I'm sure it can be found, but beyond Wheat, what are your reads?

    Thanks to Ace of Spades for the Sig and avatar!!
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  • #630
    DDS: You, unfortunately, don't have a solid "Voice" when I read you. As such I believe the "duct taping" was actually me misreading another post as you as well. However I feel like a lot of people's reads on me are based off of a WG flip. Some people see Scum!WG as indicative of Scum!Nyxu, others see Town!WG as indicative of Scum!Nyxu.
    I supposed that, if Town!Nyxu exists, and both Scum! and Town!WG indicate Scum!Nyxu, then WG must, by the silly logic strung together with various people's conflicted reads, WG would have to be neither Town nor Scum.

    Again, sarcasm and hyperbole, and not particularly targeting your linking of myself and WG.
    However, your offered explanation for Incognito does not follow what Incognito himself said: That he believes me independently scummy.
  • #631
    Because I'm falling back to cryptic metaphor mode, by voice I mean I automatically assign a 'voice' / tone / personality to individual posts. Rather than text, I'm reading a transcript of someone's thoughts or words. Things like syntax, word choice, and even font/color choice help establish this. Unfamiliar players (especially ones with superficial similarities to other players, like having a similar name, accidentally breaking the font bracket when quoting someone) can, occasionally, get mixed up and jumbled while I read: swapping voices.
  • #632
    Quote from Nyxu
    Because I'm falling back to cryptic metaphor mode, by voice I mean I automatically assign a 'voice' / tone / personality to individual posts. Rather than text, I'm reading a transcript of someone's thoughts or words. Things like syntax, word choice, and even font/color choice help establish this. Unfamiliar players (especially ones with superficial similarities to other players, like having a similar name, accidentally breaking the font bracket when quoting someone) can, occasionally, get mixed up and jumbled while I read: swapping voices.


    Can my voice be James Earl Jones? Smile

    The Incog quote I linked was only showing he wasn't linking you to WG either. At least not with town flip, more independent. I agree with the rest of your previous statements about reads on you though. (I think). Your wording is sometimes difficult to understand.

    Thanks to Ace of Spades for the Sig and avatar!!
    My Decks
    Legacy
    BSpanish InquisitionB
    UWU/W StoneBladeWU
    WUGBant NOGUW
    BWDeadguy AleWB
    Modern
    WDeath and TaxesW
    EDH
    BBBalthor ReanimatorBB
    GBWThe Rock / TenebWBG
    BBMaralen ANT EDHBB
    UUHeidar, Winter Is ComingUU
    Quote from Voxxicus
    If the AC repair dude doesn't show up bright and early tomorrow, I'm gonna borrow some of DDS' dental tools to carve out his eye sockets like jack o lanterns.
  • #633
    That happens, and if ever my meaning gets muddled, let me know and I'll try and reword.

    And yes, Incognito has me as independently scummy- without linking me to WG. I can't exactly fault him for it either. My head wasn't in the game until now.
  • #634
    Quote from Nyxu
    So does that mean that Incognito's double-please is scummy?

    Yes, but it's only one aspect, and Incog is pretty much confirmed town. I wasn't saying you're definitely scum for it; I was saying that scum are more likely to obsess over errors. I called Hawk on a similar edit-issue in Steins;Gate, and he proved scum.

    Just like with any scumtell, an amount of interpretation is key. IIRC, Hawk's error was specifically in revising a statement from an extreme level of suspicion to a low level of suspicion but leaving both in the post; that showed that he was crafting and reconsidering elements, not posting true feelings. Standard typos, or basic errors such as starting a thought, jagging off to research it, and never returning to finish it, should still be examined, but aren't as scummy as others, such as what I'm accusing you of: obsessing over your own trivial typos.
    Quote from MTG~DDS
    @Cantrip: I'm sure it can be found, but beyond Wheat, what are your reads?

    Nyxu, maybe swishh.
    Quote from Nyxu
    Some people see Scum!WG as indicative of Scum!Nyxu, others see Town!WG as indicative of Scum!Nyxu.

    Can you point out the bolded?
  • #635
    Quote from MTG~DDS
    Edit via DP:
    Quote from Incognito

    @MTG~DDS, swishh: Do you think that there could be a Nyxu/MRHBlue scumteam?


    Not sure if I answered this.

    I don't really see MRH/Nyxu scum team. Either could be, but I doubt together. Cantrip is defending MRH pretty hard and WG has defended Nyxu/Sixed throughout the game. I did not find any significant connection between the two individually. Cantrip/WG is the elephant in the room. It is hard to see past them. Only way I could see MRH/Nyxu is if WG flips town. However, if that happens, it will be difficult not to tunnel on Cantrip. Did you see connections I missed?


    Quote from Cantripmancer

    Quote from Nyxu
    Some people see Scum!WG as indicative of Scum!Nyxu, others see Town!WG as indicative of Scum!Nyxu.

    Can you point out the bolded?


    Gladly.
  • #636
    Now that I've reread that particular interaction, no, I wasn't mixing people up.

    DDS in 595: "[WG] Scum flip my best bet is Nyxu, mainly PoE though."

    DDS in 597:"Only way I could see MRH/Nyxu is if WG flips town. "
  • #637
    Votecount 3.3

    MRHblue (1): Wheat_Grinder
    Wheat_Grinder (1): Cantripmancer
    Nyxu (1): Incognito

    Not Voting: MRHBlue; MTG~DDS; Nyxu; swishh

    With 7 alive, it's 4 to lynch!

    Deadline: June 7, 2013 @ 17:00 Pacific [20:00 Eastern]
    It's not enough to feel the lack.

    ~ Ribs, Lorde ~
  • #638
    Quote from Nyxu
    So, @ Anyone who seems to think they need a WG flip to call me scum: Why?


    I was ignoring it for awhile (partly because of fighting Cantrip, partly because I thought evidence pointed away from you being scum) but I can ignore it no longer.

    You care *way* too much about your public perception.

    On the other hand, Cantrip is making too much fuss about me to actually be scum (despite what I said earlier about that being the defense he'll make).

    I no longer think Cantrip is scum, but rather Nyxu. I advocate the lynches of MRH and Nyxu now. I think that Cantripmancer should still be examined carefully, but I advocate even more care when examining Nyxu.

    You do know that laziness is more common in scum, right? Scum are perfectly happy to make generalizations and vague references with backdoors, while Town have to verify things or risk being curb-stomped by scum.


    I do know, but alas I don't have the luxury of going back with all these games.

    I'm never playing this many at once again if I can help it, no matter how much Iso begs me.

    You're lying about MRH's voting "pattern" and using that lie to label him "certain scum".


    It's not a lie in my eyes.

    Taken with a grain of sense, I find it works fairly well.


    Yes but then it's not really *all* liars, is it?

    I would argue that you don't have enough knowledge about alignments to establish consistency.


    I would argue I do.

    Keepin' you accountable, at your request.


    This was about why I thought swishh was town. I now have time to go after it. Let's see here...

    Ah, here we go. Swishh started the wagon on Annorax. Noob scum don't just go and start wagons on their scummates.

    Interaction tables =/= Votecounts. Interaction tables have been compiled through tallying of specific events. Votecounts are ongoing and are provided at (mostly) random times throughout the game, so not only is there often repetitive information (which can't be mistaken for "patterns"), but there are often vote/unvote actions that aren't recorded at all. Votecounts can provide you with indications to be researched, but making assertions off of a list of unanalyzed votecounts is scummy.


    Given how many times Annorax posted, I thought it approximated it well. Regardless,

    @All: I don't think I'll have the time; could someone whip up an interaction chart for Annorax either toDay or after I'm gone?

    Repeatedly saying "I'm so town that I will sacrifice myself to prove my point" reinforces the idea in your reader's minds that "you're town!" But I don't believe that you're really ok with your lynch.


    To be fair I'm not REALLY ok with my lynch but it's pretty obvious I'm going to kick the bucket. All I can do is post as much as I can before it happens to leave behind as much info as possible.

    Townie players can be scum; see TMCT in Steins;Gate.


    True. However, no one ever really sat down and ever looked at TMCT.
  • #639
    Nyxu, it's because Wheat has been pretty much calling you "gut town" and defending you the entire game.

    Wheat, I'll try to whip up that interaction chart... tomorrow possibly? Or Saturday; Fridays aren't a good day for me.
  • #640
    Quote from Incognito
    Nyxu, it's because Wheat has been pretty much calling you "gut town" and defending you the entire game.

    Wheat, I'll try to whip up that interaction chart... tomorrow possibly? Or Saturday; Fridays aren't a good day for me.


    Works for me.

    Just looking for basic reasonings to see why people linked me to him
  • #641
    Quote from Nyxu
    Now that I've reread that particular interaction, no, I wasn't mixing people up.

    DDS in 595: "[WG] Scum flip my best bet is Nyxu, mainly PoE though."

    DDS in 597:"Only way I could see MRH/Nyxu is if WG flips town. "

    Lolwut? Um...MTG, explain?
    Quote from Wheat_Grinder
    On the other hand, Cantrip is making too much fuss about me to actually be scum (despite what I said earlier about that being the defense he'll make).

    I no longer think Cantrip is scum, but rather Nyxu. I advocate the lynches of MRH and Nyxu now. I think that Cantripmancer should still be examined carefully, but I advocate even more care when examining Nyxu.

    Rolleyes
    Quote from Wheat »
    I do know, but alas I don't have the luxury of going back with all these games.

    I'm never playing this many at once again if I can help it, no matter how much Iso begs me.

    'Tis a hard lesson to learn...I pretty much cap myself at two simultaneously, these days. One, if possible.
    Quote from Wheat »
    You're lying about MRH's voting "pattern" and using that lie to label him "certain scum".
    It's not a lie in my eyes.

    Show me the pattern (as defined as "a combination of tendencies defining a consistent or characteristic arrangement"). I thought in order to be a pattern, there had to be repetition of some sort.
    Quote from Wheat »
    Taken with a grain of sense, I find it works fairly well.
    Yes but then it's not really *all* liars, is it?

    Touche.
    Quote from Wheat »
    Ah, here we go. Swishh started the wagon on Annorax. Noob scum don't just go and start wagons on their scummates.

    Could you link to this?
    Quote from Wheat »
    Given how many times Annorax posted, I thought it approximated it well. Regardless,

    @All: I don't think I'll have the time; could someone whip up an interaction chart for Annorax either toDay or after I'm gone?

    I feel like you're deflecting my avenue of questioning.

    Also, is there actually an interaction "chart" that can be used?
    Quote from Wheat »
    Townie players can be scum; see TMCT in Steins;Gate.
    True. However, no one ever really sat down and ever looked at TMCT.

    He played so well no one thought it was necessary. Frown
  • #642
    something irks me about Wheat's flipflopping on cantrip. I mean I know I said I thought he was wrong about him, but I sort of would have expected some back and forth about it before he retracted his scum read.
    at any rate all 3 of my suspects are being voted now. I still need to review interactions to decide the best lynch today. should have time this afternoon.
  • #643
    Quote from swishh
    something irks me about Wheat's flipflopping on cantrip. I mean I know I said I thought he was wrong about him, but I sort of would have expected some back and forth about it before he retracted his scum read.


    I have had some back and forth. That's what led me to believe Cantrip is too sure in his read to be scum.
  • #644
    Oh shoot there's a Cantrip post to respond to. I'll get it next time.
  • #645
    Quote from Cantripmancer
    Also, is there actually an interaction "chart" that can be used?

    That question was a bit facetious. A more serious question would be: how do you normally go about creating an interaction chart? I've done this before, but I've always wondered if there are better/worse ways. I've also been told that interaction tallies/charts aren't usually the best way to go, although I've experienced some personal success with ones I've attempted.
  • #646
    Wish I could Seppelscript this up, but eh. Manually works.

    Second thought: I was /really/ dumb in shooting TK-421. Based on Annorax interactions he was very townie.

    #57: Votes Wheat (RVS)
    #73: Unvotes Wheat, FoSes L_McD
    #108: "MegaFoSes" L_McD, FoSes Trabant
    #138: Responds to swishh, votes L_McD
    #159: Mentions "& WG was right... I've modded more games than I've played"
    #164: Reaffirms that L_McD was scummy.
    #191: Responds to TK.
    #217: Talks about iRebel.
    #223: Votes MTG~DDS.
    #248: "convinced to lynch three townies"
    #259: Responds to swishh and MTG~DDS.
    #274: Responds to swishh again.
    #310: This is the post that seals Wheat for me. He votes Wheat due to OMGUS and he didn't even mention him yesterday. Feels like a snap-distance attempt to me. Also FoSes me.
    #332: Talks to Nyxu, says that Wheat is a "steaming pile of WIFOM". He also says "makes no sense". Is that enough to warrant a vote?
    #358: Responds to swishh.
    #376: Responds to MTG~DDS.
    #386: More responses to MTG~DDS.
    #414: "Die scum die" to TK.
    #421: Responds to Wheat
    #446: Says that we have a TK/pinky scumteam. All have flipped town.
    #452: Talks to TK again.
    #463: pinky WIFOM bah post.

    Got cut short there, let me find another time to offer analysis.
  • #647
    Annorax interaction chart:

    Cantripmancer/Magenta Interaction: None.
    MRHBlue Interaction: None.
    MTG~DDS Interaction: He voted for him, responded to him three times.
    Swishh Interaction: Keeps talking to swishh.
    Nyxu Interaction: Responds to Nyxu about Wheat.
    Wheat_Grinder: Three times. He also votes Wheat, then says we have a TK/pinky scumteam.

    I'm fairly sure on Wheat being scum due to Annorax distancing interaction. He doesn't try to push the lynch on Wheat, just says he "doesn't make any sense".

    I want Nyxu lynched tomorrow.

    Unvote, vote Wheat_Grinder. It's the choice.
  • #648
    Quote from Incognito
    Annorax interaction chart:

    Cantripmancer/Magenta Interaction: None.
    MRHBlue Interaction: None.
    MTG~DDS Interaction: He voted for him, responded to him three times.
    Swishh Interaction: Keeps talking to swishh.
    Nyxu Interaction: Responds to Nyxu about Wheat.
    Wheat_Grinder: Three times. He also votes Wheat, then says we have a TK/pinky scumteam.

    I'm fairly sure on Wheat being scum due to Annorax distancing interaction. He doesn't try to push the lynch on Wheat, just says he "doesn't make any sense".

    I want Nyxu lynched tomorrow.

    Unvote, vote Wheat_Grinder. It's the choice.


    DING DING DING we have a winner on MRH. Cantrip is harder to say since Magenta was never around anyway.
  • #649
    Quote from Wheat_Grinder
    DING DING DING we have a winner on MRH. Cantrip is harder to say since Magenta was never around anyway.

    Heh, your panic is showing. Previously you were no longer considering me scum, but now you're smearing/questioning me again.

    What else needs to be discussed today?
  • #650
    EBWODP: And you said you'd give me responses next time. Next next time, then? I'm thoroughly enjoying our spar.
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