You mean the one where I saw annorax say "die scum die" the second there was another person being voted for, then went back and reread the cases against him and realized that he was, in fact, about as scummy as arbitrary armor was in Megiddos?
Also please look back at swish in that timeframe. Twice he posts "x and y are scum, (discuss/problem solved)"
Once with annorax and wg. Once with annorax an tk.
You mean the one where I saw annorax say "die scum die" the second there was another person being voted for, then went back and reread the cases against him and realized that he was, in fact, about as scummy as arbitrary armor was in Megiddos?
Also please look back at swish in that timeframe. Twice he posts "x and y are scum, (discuss/problem solved)"
Once with annorax and wg. Once with annorax an tk.
Certainty isn't something granted to the town
You might actually have something case worthy, problem comes with your presentation. Part (if not all) of my read on you is your apparent unwillingness to give more than very generalized input coupled with what comes across as being evasive and overly defensive. You don't have to make a big bueatiful posts with all the links and quotes...but you do have to give more than just statements.
Also please look back at swish in that timeframe. Twice he posts "x and y are scum, (discuss/problem solved)"
Once with annorax and wg. Once with annorax an tk.
Certainty isn't something granted to the town.
Good start here, but at least give me post numbers so I can see for myself.
If the AC repair dude doesn't show up bright and early tomorrow, I'm gonna borrow some of DDS' dental tools to carve out his eye sockets like jack o lanterns.
You mean the one where I saw annorax say "die scum die" the second there was another person being voted for, then went back and reread the cases against him and realized that he was, in fact, about as scummy as arbitrary armor was in Megiddos?
Also please look back at swish in that timeframe. Twice he posts "x and y are scum, (discuss/problem solved)"
Once with annorax and wg. Once with annorax an tk.
Certainty isn't something granted to the town
You might actually have something case worthy, problem comes with your presentation. Part (if not all) of my read on you is your apparent unwillingness to give more than very generalized input coupled with what comes across as being evasive and overly defensive. You don't have to make a big bueatiful posts with all the links and quotes...but you do have to give more than just statements.
Also please look back at swish in that timeframe. Twice he posts "x and y are scum, (discuss/problem solved)"
Once with annorax and wg. Once with annorax an tk.
Certainty isn't something granted to the town.
Good start here, but at least give me post numbers so I can see for myself.
So I'm suspect if wheat flips town, and suspect if he flips scum?
In before wheat is neutral survivor because Odds don't add up
Defensiveness without reasoning looks bad. If we are wrong, show us why! "Woe is me" and fearmongery doesn't help much.
Honestly, I've already pointed out that I'm getting linked to WG. I don't understand why. Without the "Why" I can't prove it wrong. It's less "Woe is me" and more "Are you guys seeing this too? It doesn't add up that people are justifying a Nyx lynch based on both outcomes of a WG lynch. "
Evasiveness comes from a feeling of being mistrusted. When I have brought something to the table it's counted against me as a 'bad post' or whatever. Why put effort into crafting what seems to only ever be used as ammunition against you? I'd rather expend that effort on [ongoing game] where my inputs are valued.
More to follow. Just spotted something of interest. I'd like to organize it into a separate post.
Because I was interested in a Trabant777 lynch until Annorax posted. I'm still trying to decide if they could be potential scum buddies, but until then I need to figure out which is more likely scum.
I didn't want to risk restarting a wagon that the scum would jump aboard before we have enough information to be sure he really is scum. But **** it, let's throw caution to the wind & let them push us into mislynches all over the place since you seem to think that's a good idea.
Vote LordMcDonalds
Let's not.
Vote: Annorax
This looks to me like coaching. I've seen it done elsewhere as well.
TK-421, the following statements are not compatible.
1. Annorax is at L-2
2. Annorax is town.
3. Only one scum at most is voting Annorax.
4. We're looking at a 3+ person scum squad.
Which of the above do you think is not the case?
This post has always bugged me, mostly because I just don't understand it.
It feels like there is a lot of lurking going on this game. There's also a heavy usage of the noob card.
I feel the same about lurking. But the noob, I think it is inevitable, since it is an basic... idk
@MTG / WG
Yeah, that's sort of my feeling. So how do we proceed in games like this?
I think that claiming is sort of useless unless you are a PR, or the mafia will be constantly helped...
This is a good point. I'm getting severe noob-vibes from almost everyone, and these bandwagons are growing really fast. I was like literally sheeped. I'm going to be kind of busy this weekend, so hopefully I can review the game tomorrow and make sense of things.
Once Annorax has made something decent of a post, the vote comes off.
Right now I'm considering the possibility of a WG/Swishh/Annorax scumteam. Swishh showed certainty about Annorax' alignment but seemed to fall off the Annorax wagon day two - that is, until he could put it to l-1. I have trouble reading him as the most "Pro-town" player as Incognito claims.
344 he promised a case on WG/Annorax, but only ever delivered his Annorax case, opting instead to go after TK-421.
The "Elsewhere" mentioning I realize is too cagey. What I mean exactly is I studied ZDS' play in Avatars because he coached mid-game. Yes yes, I know meta from one player doesn't outright apply to another, but Incognito -is- mentored by ZDS, and at least one of them will be able to spot the similarities.
I'm going to start trimming this back and forth down to the bits that aren't just going to be "yeah huh" "nuh uh"
I have no problem with you taking your time catching up. You had already confirmed you were waiting until Sunday to post; why did you feel the need to post the "I'mma going to bed" post?
I couldn't remember what days I promised content in which games. I was planning on making the post Saturday because you wanted content from me so badly.
Ah, I can accept this.
Quote from Wheat »
You weren't on the town quickwagon right before; you were on Annorax's, with a legitimate reason that wasn't addressed before you unvoted.
That doesn't explain why me stopping Annorax's wagon right after stopping a town wagon makes me scum.
Because you had a valid point against Annorax, but instead of waiting for him to respond (or just unvoting without charging off in the direction of another wagon), you diverted the wagon. I feel this demonstrates that you weren't serious in your suspicions of Annorax, and used Trabant's voting choices to derail Annorax's wagon.
Quote from Wheat »
He had a few attacks on DDS D1 (before Annorax came under scrutiny), which is one of the reasons I think DDS is town. He had one(?) attack on swishh? If there were more, please point them out to me and I'll reexamine my beliefs, but even so, what's your point?
He attacked me. It's in the votecount even.
(I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're not talking about the first votecount.)
He attacked you D2, in direct OMGUS to your attack on him, well aware that he was going to be under scrutiny. How does this count?
Quote from Wheat »
My point is that you are going out of your way NOT to analyze.
Explain this, please, because I couldn't disagree more.
Quote from Wheat »
How about this, what if I'm town? What does that mean for MRH joining Annorax on me?
It's still not telling about MRH. Townies vote townies. Townies follow scum onto townie wagons. I don't agree with MRH's reasoning for voting you, but I can understand it coming from a newer player.
Quote from Wheat »
Even if you're town, I don't see how it proves the pattern. You can't just assume that every scum is going to avoid attacking his buddies all the way through the game. Not only is it an illogical assumption, but you're only basing it off of one dead scum.
I usually don't. It's just so blatantly obvious that they haven't been busing, a position supported by the scum team being new to the game, or else not playing often in the case of Annorax.
How is it blatantly obvious? You don't know the alignments of swishh or MRH, nor MTG who has been just as non-bussy as Me/Magenta or Nyxu.
Quote from Wheat »
Explain why you would post those specifics if you hadn't examined the votecounts enough to make assertions like that.
I meant I didn't look closely at the votecounts as in I didn't look at the vote histories in between each votecount; I only went through quickly for statistics. It doesn't take long to see that MRH and Annorax voted together often, and that MRH voted with TK even more often.
The bolded. Is. Not. True. Why do you persist in presenting it as if it is? Making those assertions without checking the vote histories is exactly why I find you scummy. You sure-scummed MRH based on bad data; town does not do this (unless they're kpaca).
Quote from Wheat »
How does "one scum didn't attack any known scum" equate to "the scumteam isn't bussing this game"?
It eliminates all the possibilities except for three people if you take Annorax's history alone. If you look at those three, Nyxu is less likely to be a scummate with you or with MRH than you are with MRH.
Stop smearing and answer the question. Since you claim that you don't know the aligments of anyone but yourself, how does "one scum didn't attack any known scum" equate to "the scumteam isn't bussing this game"?
Quote from Wheat »
You wouldn't be the first. One of my recent games included a conversation about a player being more or less likely to be scum based on thinking about the game in the shower. And you don't have to really lose sleep to plant that idea in the minds of the readers; the result is the same: "It's no big deal because I know I'm town, so downplay, downplay, downplay."
I think you actually feel seriously about this one, so I'll just say that you are way overthinking this.
Mafia is life. Anyone who says differently is doing it wrong.
The above statement may be sarcasm.
Quote from Wheat »
So I'm scum because I didn't get annoyed that you didn't post when you said you weren't going to post?
I totally lost the thread of this particular conversation and I'm about to be drawn back into a game with friends again so I can't check what the thread is.
Explain why you would post those specifics if you hadn't examined the votecounts enough to make assertions like that.
I meant I didn't look closely at the votecounts as in I didn't look at the vote histories in between each votecount; I only went through quickly for statistics. It doesn't take long to see that MRH and Annorax voted together often, and that MRH voted with TK even more often.
The bolded. Is. Not. True. Why do you persist in presenting it as if it is? Making those assertions without checking the vote histories is exactly why I find you scummy. You sure-scummed MRH based on bad data; town does not do this (unless they're kpaca).
Even if it was true, how does me voting with other town more often than a scum look scummy? Being on a wagon with someone is not the same as following them there.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
It seems that my lynch is close at hand from MRH's comments. If I am lynched before my return, REMEMBER THE PATTERN.
Because you had a valid point against Annorax, but instead of waiting for him to respond (or just unvoting without charging off in the direction of another wagon), you diverted the wagon. I feel this demonstrates that you weren't serious in your suspicions of Annorax, and used Trabant's voting choices to derail Annorax's wagon.
One of my main issues while playing is that I sometimes drop cases suddenly to pursue new ones. I saw LMD get pushed quickly, and I thought he was town so I was not a fan. I saw Annorax get pushed quickly, and even though I had reasoning on him, I was still not a fan because of the quick wagon just moments before. I saw a common thread, and one who was weakly barning to boot. I found it suspicious and so I dropped Annorax for what I thought was the stronger line of questioning.
(I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're not talking about the first votecount.)
He attacked you D2, in direct OMGUS to your attack on him, well aware that he was going to be under scrutiny. How does this count?
I'm pretty sure, without going back to look for it, that he was calling me scum before I ever voted him.
Explain this, please, because I couldn't disagree more.
You have this writing on the wall with Annorax, it's the most cut and dried pattern ever, and you just go and IGNORE it, despite it having applications in determining the alignments of several players.
How is it blatantly obvious? You don't know the alignments of swishh or MRH, nor MTG who has been just as non-bussy as Me/Magenta or Nyxu.
MTG and swishh were independently townie. Using that as a baseline, everything else falls together.
The bolded. Is. Not. True. Why do you persist in presenting it as if it is? Making those assertions without checking the vote histories is exactly why I find you scummy. You sure-scummed MRH based on bad data; town does not do this (unless they're kpaca).
You're misunderstanding what I'm saying (perhaps partly because I should have said "didn't" instead of "doesn't"; I was saying that I did not spend a long time looking at the posts between votecounts to determine the entire story because I didn't have the time; on the other hand, I DID have the time to look at just the votecounts, and that pattern was very quickly obvious to me.
Stop smearing and answer the question. Since you claim that you don't know the aligments of anyone but yourself, how does "one scum didn't attack any known scum" equate to "the scumteam isn't bussing this game"?
I'm talking about just Annorax here. It eliminates everyone but three players.
Your original assertion was that I was scum because Town doesn't get smug like this for someone just ignoring them. Mostly they get a little peeved because their trying to judge the reactions. I interpreted your comment as you admitting that you were purposefully ignoring me, so I asked Wait, what? Did you just admit that you were ignoring me and not V/LA? Because I wasn't getting peeved because you said you were V/LA. You responded with V/LA caused me to ignore you. I didn't have time to respond decently, confirming that you weren't responding because of your V/LA, which was known in-thread. How am I scum for not getting peeved at you ignoring me due to V/LA that you announced in-thread? I wasn't peeved because I knew you couldn't respond.
I counter with another question; if you don't get peeved at someone who can't respond, then why do you get smug at them?
Because you had a valid point against Annorax, but instead of waiting for him to respond (or just unvoting without charging off in the direction of another wagon), you diverted the wagon. I feel this demonstrates that you weren't serious in your suspicions of Annorax, and used Trabant's voting choices to derail Annorax's wagon.
One of my main issues while playing is that I sometimes drop cases suddenly to pursue new ones. I saw LMD get pushed quickly, and I thought he was town so I was not a fan. I saw Annorax get pushed quickly, and even though I had reasoning on him, I was still not a fan because of the quick wagon just moments before. I saw a common thread, and one who was weakly barning to boot. I found it suspicious and so I dropped Annorax for what I thought was the stronger line of questioning.
Annorax made a bad post, and you called him on it. It doesn't feel right that a single player participating in two quick wagons would distract from that. But I don't know that we're getting anywhere on this line of discussion.
Quote from Wheat »
(I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're not talking about the first votecount.)
He attacked you D2, in direct OMGUS to your attack on him, well aware that he was going to be under scrutiny. How does this count?
I'm pretty sure, without going back to look for it, that he was calling me scum before I ever voted him.
Fortunately for review, he only made 22 posts all game, and only 12 of them D1 (before you voted him D2). In those 12 posts, he interacts with you exactly twice. Once in his first post of the game, where he RVS-votes you, and once where he says that you were right about his play history (see below for more on this). So, no, he didn't attack you until you bussed him on D2. Way to leave yourself an out, though, with "without going back to look for it."
Quote from Wheat »
Explain this, please, because I couldn't disagree more.
You have this writing on the wall with Annorax, it's the most cut and dried pattern ever, and you just go and IGNORE it, despite it having applications in determining the alignments of several players by making uneducated assumptions.
FTFY Making bad assumptions has gotten me in trouble before. Lynch all liars, on the other hand, tends to work a lot better.
Quote from Wheat »
How is it blatantly obvious? You don't know the alignments of swishh or MRH, nor MTG who has been just as non-bussy as Me/Magenta or Nyxu.
MTG and swishh were independently townie. Using that as a baseline, everything else falls together.
...but no matter how much you might think they're townie, you don't know, so how can you extrapolate from that??? On that note, remind me what cleared swishh for you?
Quote from Wheat »
The bolded. Is. Not. True. Why do you persist in presenting it as if it is? Making those assertions without checking the vote histories is exactly why I find you scummy. You sure-scummed MRH based on bad data; town does not do this (unless they're kpaca).
You're misunderstanding what I'm saying (perhaps partly because I should have said "didn't" instead of "doesn't"; I was saying that I did not spend a long time looking at the posts between votecounts to determine the entire story because I didn't have the time; on the other hand, I DID have the time to look at just the votecounts, and that pattern was very quickly obvious to me.
And I'm saying that I think you're more experienced than to glance at a series of votecounts and make the (really bad) assumption that a quick glance will provide insightful "proof" that a player is scum. Not to mention, you know, that I've proven (yes, really) that it wasn't a pattern.
Quote from Wheat »
Stop smearing and answer the question. Since you claim that you don't know the aligments of anyone but yourself, how does "one scum didn't attack any known scum" equate to "the scumteam isn't bussing this game"?
I'm talking about just Annorax here. It eliminates everyone but three players.
If we accept that you're town (because he didn't attack you, either). Call me crazy, but I just can't take your word for that. Not to mention that we don't know the alignment of a player he did attack (MTG). Sigh. I feel like we're going round and round on this one, too. Listen, I admit that Annorax seemed not to attack his buddies, but I don't feel like we know enough to make that a generality, and I feel like a big part of your "case" against me and MRH is based on "they didn't vote/attack at all, so they must be scum". My point is that while I don't mind you using that to form your opinions, I do mind you using it as the primary basis for calling someone scum.
Quote from Wheat »
Your original assertion was that I was scum because Town doesn't get smug like this for someone just ignoring them. Mostly they get a little peeved because their trying to judge the reactions. I interpreted your comment as you admitting that you were purposefully ignoring me, so I asked Wait, what? Did you just admit that you were ignoring me and not V/LA? Because I wasn't getting peeved because you said you were V/LA. You responded with V/LA caused me to ignore you. I didn't have time to respond decently, confirming that you weren't responding because of your V/LA, which was known in-thread. How am I scum for not getting peeved at you ignoring me due to V/LA that you announced in-thread? I wasn't peeved because I knew you couldn't respond.
I counter with another question; if you don't get peeved at someone who can't respond, then why do you get smug at them?
Peeved is an emotion reliant on another's actions. I was smug based on my own actions.
Why would two scum members out each other, fight each other so openly, and get the other killed on day 1? Even trying to build town cred, that seems like a horrible idea to cut your team by 1/3 on day one!
You bus your scumbuddy, we lynch him, he flips scum & you come out of it all but confirmed as town. I've seen enough games where that sort of thing's happened & the "confirmed" scum has coasted through to endgame & never been questioned.
Foreshadow much? This idea was clearly on his mind.
sorry, everyone. I thought I would be able to post yesterday but things have been crazy busy. I'll review things tonight and have a post up this evening.
Because I was interested in a Trabant777 lynch until Annorax posted. I'm still trying to decide if they could be potential scum buddies, but until then I need to figure out which is more likely scum.
I didn't want to risk restarting a wagon that the scum would jump aboard before we have enough information to be sure he really is scum. But **** it, let's throw caution to the wind & let them push us into mislynches all over the place since you seem to think that's a good idea.
Vote LordMcDonalds
Let's not.
Vote: Annorax
This looks to me like coaching. I've seen it done elsewhere as well.
Coaching? You're suggesting that I'm trying to get Annorax to vote himself?
TK-421, the following statements are not compatible.
1. Annorax is at L-2
2. Annorax is town.
3. Only one scum at most is voting Annorax.
4. We're looking at a 3+ person scum squad.
Which of the above do you think is not the case?
This post has always bugged me, mostly because I just don't understand it.
I'll explain it then. Those four things are incompatible because were, for instance, Annorax town, then the remaining scum could have jumped on to hammer a mislynch. This is what I was talking about earlier viz-a-viz blitzing.
It feels like there is a lot of lurking going on this game. There's also a heavy usage of the noob card.
I feel the same about lurking. But the noob, I think it is inevitable, since it is an basic... idk
@MTG / WG
Yeah, that's sort of my feeling. So how do we proceed in games like this?
I think that claiming is sort of useless unless you are a PR, or the mafia will be constantly helped...
This is a good point. I'm getting severe noob-vibes from almost everyone, and these bandwagons are growing really fast. I was like literally sheeped. I'm going to be kind of busy this weekend, so hopefully I can review the game tomorrow and make sense of things.
Once Annorax has made something decent of a post, the vote comes off.
You'll have to explain to me why this is a scum tell.
You're totally glossing over the succession of bad posts TK made. There's a reason Incognito shot him. Furthermore, at the time, it wasn't out of the realm of possibility that Annorax, TK, and Wheat were all scum.
@MTG~DDS, swishh: Do you think that there could be a Nyxu/MRHBlue scumteam? I want this dichotomy to be resolved with a scumlynch, and both Cantrip and Wheat flipping town equals an instant loss to the game.
Absolutely. I think you're wrong about Cantrip. S/he's putting forth real townie effort today. Don't mistake eagerness with scumminess. I explained earlier why I thought MRH could be scum with respect to the joint attack on Wheat with Annorax. All that taken into consideration, I'm almost sure the remaining scum lie in MRH/Nyxu/Wheat. I don't have enough time tonight, but hopefully tomorrow I can review for interactions to nail it down.
One final comment: I've seen several players express haphazardness regarding today's lynch. This isn't pro-town. I'm not calling anyone scum for it, but mislynching just to prove someone is town doesn't help anything.
I am now fine with any series of events ending with Cantripmancer, MRHBlue, and myself being dead. I will push any of the three.
I can see that due to paranoia it may very well take me being dead to prove the pattern, and we have a mislynch left. I'll sacrifice myself for the sake of proving the pattern.
(While I believe it to be true, this is merely a joke.)
Annorax made a bad post, and you called him on it. It doesn't feel right that a single player participating in two quick wagons would distract from that. But I don't know that we're getting anywhere on this line of discussion.
I was seeing bad posts from nearly *everyone* at that point with two quickwagons. I don't like to fight multiple battles at once.
Fortunately for review, he only made 22 posts all game, and only 12 of them D1 (before you voted him D2). In those 12 posts, he interacts with you exactly twice. Once in his first post of the game, where he RVS-votes you, and once where he says that you were right about his play history (see below for more on this). So, no, he didn't attack you until you bussed him on D2. Way to leave yourself an out, though, with "without going back to look for it."
I stand corrected then.
I gave myself that out because I knew it would make you do the work for me to prove me wrong and I'm lazy.
Making bad assumptions has gotten me in trouble before. Lynch all liars, on the other hand, tends to work a lot better.
Mmm? Who's lying about what now?
Additional: lynch all liars backfires a lot.
Additional additional: I'm not a fan of adding words to quotes that weren't originally there, from a readability standpoint.
...but no matter how much you might think they're townie, you don't know, so how can you extrapolate from that??? On that note, remind me what cleared swishh for you?
I can extrapolate from it when it supports itself with internal consistency.
I can't remember and I need to catch up in another game. Quote this so that I look for it next time, if you will?
And I'm saying that I think you're more experienced than to glance at a series of votecounts and make the (really bad) assumption that a quick glance will provide insightful "proof" that a player is scum. Not to mention, you know, that I've proven (yes, really) that it wasn't a pattern.
Really? Because that's pretty much exactly how I caught kill-joy in Basic 69.
Well OK it was via use of interaction tables but it paints the same picture as the votecounts.
If we accept that you're town (because he didn't attack you, either). Call me crazy, but I just can't take your word for that.
WHY
DO
YOU
THINK
I
AM
FINE
WITH
BEING
LYNCHED.
Not to mention that we don't know the alignment of a player he did attack (MTG).
Dude MTG is the most townie player in the game right now besides Incognito.
Wheat, I didn't see where you made that assertion; do you have any idea what Annorax was referring to when he said you were "right"?
In 116 I post "I know you've played before, but how often?" and in RVS (post 4) I voted him for modding my first game on the site. I think those two ideas combined in his head.
So I'm suspect if wheat flips town, and suspect if he flips scum?
In before wheat is neutral survivor because Odds don't add up
This is a terrible post. Textbook scum tell is to hint at the existence of neutral roles when there's absolutely no indication of it beforehand.
Humor, sarcasm, hyperbole. I'm not saying that there are neutral roles. I'm saying that if I'm to be scum if Wheat flips town or scum, then what does my being town make Wheat?
Because I was interested in a Trabant777 lynch until Annorax posted. I'm still trying to decide if they could be potential scum buddies, but until then I need to figure out which is more likely scum.
I didn't want to risk restarting a wagon that the scum would jump aboard before we have enough information to be sure he really is scum. But **** it, let's throw caution to the wind & let them push us into mislynches all over the place since you seem to think that's a good idea.
Vote LordMcDonalds
Let's not.
Vote: Annorax
This looks to me like coaching. I've seen it done elsewhere as well.
Coaching? You're suggesting that I'm trying to get Annorax to vote himself?
Deflection, sarcasm. You're not taking this seriously, are you?
You said "Let's not" to Annorax's plan, then drop a vote on him. You disapproved of his behavior and lo and behold when he changes it (below) the vote comes off.
TK-421, the following statements are not compatible.
1. Annorax is at L-2
2. Annorax is town.
3. Only one scum at most is voting Annorax.
4. We're looking at a 3+ person scum squad.
Which of the above do you think is not the case?
This post has always bugged me, mostly because I just don't understand it.
I'll explain it then. Those four things are incompatible because were, for instance, Annorax town, then the remaining scum could have jumped on to hammer a mislynch. This is what I was talking about earlier viz-a-viz blitzing.
You really meant to imply that a full scumteam would dogpile on a L-3 for a single mislynch? Scum don't trade 1:1, why would you even remotely consider scum trading 3:1 with that tactic (Because three people jumping on a wagon is very, very obvious)
It feels like there is a lot of lurking going on this game. There's also a heavy usage of the noob card.
I feel the same about lurking. But the noob, I think it is inevitable, since it is an basic... idk
@MTG / WG
Yeah, that's sort of my feeling. So how do we proceed in games like this?
I think that claiming is sort of useless unless you are a PR, or the mafia will be constantly helped...
This is a good point. I'm getting severe noob-vibes from almost everyone, and these bandwagons are growing really fast. I was like literally sheeped. I'm going to be kind of busy this weekend, so hopefully I can review the game tomorrow and make sense of things.
Once Annorax has made something decent of a post, the vote comes off.
You'll have to explain to me why this is a scum tell. see above
I was getting some scum vibes from Sixed. Is Nyxu slowrolling the hammer to seem more town?
Retracted later.
Consider it unretracted.
So now you think I was slowrolling the hammer to seem more town or are you just un-retracting because now I'm casing you?
Fun Fact: I've made a point of establishing slowhammer as a null tell. I do it as scum, I do it as town. Why would I use a null tell to seem more town?
You're totally glossing over the succession of bad posts TK made. There's a reason Incognito shot him. Furthermore, at the time, it wasn't out of the realm of possibility that Annorax, TK, and Wheat were all scum.
There's "Indications" and "Certainty" I am calling you out for the latter.
Nyxu, one vote on you and you finally post content.
You do realize that you're independently scummy, right?
After thinking about this game for a couple of hours, I'm inclined to trust my initial gut read and vote Wheat_Grinder. There are a couple of scattered paranoid thoughts, but I'm willing to quell those until we lynch him.
Ugh.
I feel like /anyone/ could be scum at this point, and I'm also fearful that the Wheat/Cantrip dichotomy is going to backfire.
*bites lip*
I'm ready to vote Wheat whenever, but preferably this week.
Nyxu, one vote on you and you finally post content.
You do realize that you're independently scummy, right?
After thinking about this game for a couple of hours, I'm inclined to trust my initial gut read and vote Wheat_Grinder. There are a couple of scattered paranoid thoughts, but I'm willing to quell those until we lynch him.
Ugh.
I feel like /anyone/ could be scum at this point, and I'm also fearful that the Wheat/Cantrip dichotomy is going to backfire.
*bites lip*
I'm ready to vote Wheat whenever, but preferably this week.
Been trying to post content since before you voted.
I only just found the thread to pull.
If the suspicion on me was exclusively because I'm "Independently scummy", people wouldn't be justifying it with WG's flip. This is what I'm trying to point out. You actually stacked a case up. Swishh is OMGUSing hard, but a lot of what I'm seeing? "If WG flips X, then Nyxu is probably Scum"
So, @ Anyone who seems to think they need a WG flip to call me scum: Why?
(While I believe it to be true, this is merely a joke.)
All joking aside, I didn't like that he chose to ask the question that way because it does reek of asking for approval. And thus I'm brought back to MRH making bad posts but being attacked by a player who's been playing well all game, but who I most suspect as scum (you), with said suspicion primarily based on your really bad attack on MRH.
Quote from Wheat »
Annorax made a bad post, and you called him on it. It doesn't feel right that a single player participating in two quick wagons would distract from that. But I don't know that we're getting anywhere on this line of discussion.
I was seeing bad posts from nearly *everyone* at that point with two quickwagons. I don't like to fight multiple battles at once.
Hmm, I have to admit that this fits your behavior in the other game I've played with you.
Quote from Wheat »
Fortunately for review, he only made 22 posts all game, and only 12 of them D1 (before you voted him D2). In those 12 posts, he interacts with you exactly twice. Once in his first post of the game, where he RVS-votes you, and once where he says that you were right about his play history (see below for more on this). So, no, he didn't attack you until you bussed him on D2. Way to leave yourself an out, though, with "without going back to look for it."
I stand corrected then.
I gave myself that out because I knew it would make you do the work for me to prove me wrong and I'm lazy.
You do know that laziness is more common in scum, right? Scum are perfectly happy to make generalizations and vague references with backdoors, while Town have to verify things or risk being curb-stomped by scum.
Quote from Wheat »
Making bad assumptions has gotten me in trouble before. Lynch all liars, on the other hand, tends to work a lot better.
Mmm? Who's lying about what now?
You're lying about MRH's voting "pattern" and using that lie to label him "certain scum".
Quote from Wheat »
Additional: lynch all liars backfires a lot.
Taken with a grain of sense, I find it works fairly well.
Quote from Wheat »
Additional additional: I'm not a fan of adding words to quotes that weren't originally there, from a readability standpoint.
Yeah, neither am I, really, but sometimes it adds the perfect emphasis.
Quote from Wheat »
...but no matter how much you might think they're townie, you don't know, so how can you extrapolate from that??? On that note, remind me what cleared swishh for you?
I can extrapolate from it when it supports itself with internal consistency.
I would argue that you don't have enough knowledge about alignments to establish consistency.
Quote from Wheat »
I can't remember and I need to catch up in another game. Quote this so that I look for it next time, if you will?
Keepin' you accountable, at your request.
Quote from Wheat »
And I'm saying that I think you're more experienced than to glance at a series of votecounts and make the (really bad) assumption that a quick glance will provide insightful "proof" that a player is scum. Not to mention, you know, that I've proven (yes, really) that it wasn't a pattern.
Really? Because that's pretty much exactly how I caught kill-joy in Basic 69.
Well OK it was via use of interaction tables but it paints the same picture as the votecounts.
Interaction tables =/= Votecounts. Interaction tables have been compiled through tallying of specific events. Votecounts are ongoing and are provided at (mostly) random times throughout the game, so not only is there often repetitive information (which can't be mistaken for "patterns"), but there are often vote/unvote actions that aren't recorded at all. Votecounts can provide you with indications to be researched, but making assertions off of a list of unanalyzed votecounts is scummy.
Quote from Wheat »
If we accept that you're town (because he didn't attack you, either). Call me crazy, but I just can't take your word for that.
WHY
DO
YOU
THINK
I
AM
FINE
WITH
BEING
LYNCHED.
BECAUSE.
YOU.
ARE.
FRONTING.
TOWN.
IN.
AN.
ATTEMPT.
TO.
PREVENT.
THAT.
LYNCH.
Repeatedly saying "I'm so town that I will sacrifice myself to prove my point" reinforces the idea in your reader's minds that "you're town!" But I don't believe that you're really ok with your lynch.
Quote from Wheat »
Not to mention that we don't know the alignment of a player he did attack (MTG).
Dude MTG is the most townie player in the game right now besides Incognito.
Townie players can be scum; see TMCT in Steins;Gate.
Quote from Wheat »
Wheat, I didn't see where you made that assertion; do you have any idea what Annorax was referring to when he said you were "right"?
In 116 I post "I know you've played before, but how often?" and in RVS (post 4) I voted him for modding my first game on the site. I think those two ideas combined in his head.
This is certainly minor, but it's another drop in the bucket.
Hm, that double-question-mark shouldn't be there. I edited the wording while posting and must've habitually tagged in a ?.
This is not a post in your favor. Scum are more prone to EWPing errors and are usually much more self-conscious of those errors. I seriously doubt that anyone would have noticed the double question mark if you hadn't felt the need to draw attention to it.
So I'm suspect if wheat flips town, and suspect if he flips scum? In before wheat is neutral survivor because Odds don't add up
First off, please explain the bolded. Not sure what you are trying to say.
What you posted doesn't reflect: my first post that had reads not having you connected at all to WG. (When i duct taped you to him). The second concluded with:
Strongest case is against WG. I think our best course today is WG. If he flips town, Cantrip/MRH look bad. Scum flip my best bet is Nyxu, mainly PoE though.
Which doesn't state that either. Why the extreme defensiveness, when the accusations really weren't there?
Conclusion: I feel like Nyxu is scummy - he's contributed stone-nothing this game, and tried to brush off pointing out odd things (such as "using my quote to add more weight" and "color coding reads" as scummy. Not to mention his Annorax vote is terrible because he's said zero on Annorax at that point.
I still want Wheat lynched because a lot of my reads on Nyxu are tied to my read on Wheat, but if Wheat flips scum I feel like Nyxu is our last scum.
My understanding of what Incognito posted was he had similar feelings on it.
Post 379 - WG - Defends Nyxu twice in the same post. "replace Nyxu with Annorax" in scum team list. Also, doesn't think he's scum, but admits he was lurking and no further defense. Claims he will be worried about Nyxu if he continues to lurk...but not now. Possible indication of Nyxu/WG.
Post 381 - WG - Defends Sixed. Doesn't think he is scum, but no reasons given. Why not just leave it at Null read? Why go so far as to say "not scum"? Another point for possible Nyxu/WG.
Were a couple of posting interactions that landed to feeling that Nyxu/WG team was a possibility.
@Incognito: I agree the Cantrip/Wheat dichotomy needs resolution before we can really progress. Question is, you feel good moving ahead now? Do we have enough to go on tomorrow?
If we accept that you're town (because he didn't attack you, either). Call me crazy, but I just can't take your word for that.
WHY
DO
YOU
THINK
I
AM
FINE
WITH
BEING
LYNCHED.
If WG Town flip, we have his reads and his revealed alignment will help confirm. WG lynch looks like the right play. I'm going to read back through to make sure all my questions were adequately answered. Assuming I find no discrepancies that cannot be rectified, ready to vote.
@Cantrip: I'm sure it can be found, but beyond Wheat, what are your reads?
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If the AC repair dude doesn't show up bright and early tomorrow, I'm gonna borrow some of DDS' dental tools to carve out his eye sockets like jack o lanterns.
DDS: You, unfortunately, don't have a solid "Voice" when I read you. As such I believe the "duct taping" was actually me misreading another post as you as well. However I feel like a lot of people's reads on me are based off of a WG flip. Some people see Scum!WG as indicative of Scum!Nyxu, others see Town!WG as indicative of Scum!Nyxu.
I supposed that, if Town!Nyxu exists, and both Scum! and Town!WG indicate Scum!Nyxu, then WG must, by the silly logic strung together with various people's conflicted reads, WG would have to be neither Town nor Scum.
Again, sarcasm and hyperbole, and not particularly targeting your linking of myself and WG.
However, your offered explanation for Incognito does not follow what Incognito himself said: That he believes me independently scummy.
Because I'm falling back to cryptic metaphor mode, by voice I mean I automatically assign a 'voice' / tone / personality to individual posts. Rather than text, I'm reading a transcript of someone's thoughts or words. Things like syntax, word choice, and even font/color choice help establish this. Unfamiliar players (especially ones with superficial similarities to other players, like having a similar name, accidentally breaking the font bracket when quoting someone) can, occasionally, get mixed up and jumbled while I read: swapping voices.
Because I'm falling back to cryptic metaphor mode, by voice I mean I automatically assign a 'voice' / tone / personality to individual posts. Rather than text, I'm reading a transcript of someone's thoughts or words. Things like syntax, word choice, and even font/color choice help establish this. Unfamiliar players (especially ones with superficial similarities to other players, like having a similar name, accidentally breaking the font bracket when quoting someone) can, occasionally, get mixed up and jumbled while I read: swapping voices.
Can my voice be James Earl Jones?
The Incog quote I linked was only showing he wasn't linking you to WG either. At least not with town flip, more independent. I agree with the rest of your previous statements about reads on you though. (I think). Your wording is sometimes difficult to understand.
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If the AC repair dude doesn't show up bright and early tomorrow, I'm gonna borrow some of DDS' dental tools to carve out his eye sockets like jack o lanterns.
That happens, and if ever my meaning gets muddled, let me know and I'll try and reword.
And yes, Incognito has me as independently scummy- without linking me to WG. I can't exactly fault him for it either. My head wasn't in the game until now.
So does that mean that Incognito's double-please is scummy?
Yes, but it's only one aspect, and Incog is pretty much confirmed town. I wasn't saying you're definitely scum for it; I was saying that scum are more likely to obsess over errors. I called Hawk on a similar edit-issue in Steins;Gate, and he proved scum.
Just like with any scumtell, an amount of interpretation is key. IIRC, Hawk's error was specifically in revising a statement from an extreme level of suspicion to a low level of suspicion but leaving both in the post; that showed that he was crafting and reconsidering elements, not posting true feelings. Standard typos, or basic errors such as starting a thought, jagging off to research it, and never returning to finish it, should still be examined, but aren't as scummy as others, such as what I'm accusing you of: obsessing over your own trivial typos.
@MTG~DDS, swishh: Do you think that there could be a Nyxu/MRHBlue scumteam?
Not sure if I answered this.
I don't really see MRH/Nyxu scum team. Either could be, but I doubt together. Cantrip is defending MRH pretty hard and WG has defended Nyxu/Sixed throughout the game. I did not find any significant connection between the two individually. Cantrip/WG is the elephant in the room. It is hard to see past them. Only way I could see MRH/Nyxu is if WG flips town. However, if that happens, it will be difficult not to tunnel on Cantrip. Did you see connections I missed?
So, @ Anyone who seems to think they need a WG flip to call me scum: Why?
I was ignoring it for awhile (partly because of fighting Cantrip, partly because I thought evidence pointed away from you being scum) but I can ignore it no longer.
You care *way* too much about your public perception.
On the other hand, Cantrip is making too much fuss about me to actually be scum (despite what I said earlier about that being the defense he'll make).
I no longer think Cantrip is scum, but rather Nyxu. I advocate the lynches of MRH and Nyxu now. I think that Cantripmancer should still be examined carefully, but I advocate even more care when examining Nyxu.
You do know that laziness is more common in scum, right? Scum are perfectly happy to make generalizations and vague references with backdoors, while Town have to verify things or risk being curb-stomped by scum.
I do know, but alas I don't have the luxury of going back with all these games.
I'm never playing this many at once again if I can help it, no matter how much Iso begs me.
You're lying about MRH's voting "pattern" and using that lie to label him "certain scum".
It's not a lie in my eyes.
Taken with a grain of sense, I find it works fairly well.
Yes but then it's not really *all* liars, is it?
I would argue that you don't have enough knowledge about alignments to establish consistency.
I would argue I do.
Keepin' you accountable, at your request.
This was about why I thought swishh was town. I now have time to go after it. Let's see here...
Ah, here we go. Swishh started the wagon on Annorax. Noob scum don't just go and start wagons on their scummates.
Interaction tables =/= Votecounts. Interaction tables have been compiled through tallying of specific events. Votecounts are ongoing and are provided at (mostly) random times throughout the game, so not only is there often repetitive information (which can't be mistaken for "patterns"), but there are often vote/unvote actions that aren't recorded at all. Votecounts can provide you with indications to be researched, but making assertions off of a list of unanalyzed votecounts is scummy.
Given how many times Annorax posted, I thought it approximated it well. Regardless,
@All: I don't think I'll have the time; could someone whip up an interaction chart for Annorax either toDay or after I'm gone?
Repeatedly saying "I'm so town that I will sacrifice myself to prove my point" reinforces the idea in your reader's minds that "you're town!" But I don't believe that you're really ok with your lynch.
To be fair I'm not REALLY ok with my lynch but it's pretty obvious I'm going to kick the bucket. All I can do is post as much as I can before it happens to leave behind as much info as possible.
Townie players can be scum; see TMCT in Steins;Gate.
True. However, no one ever really sat down and ever looked at TMCT.
On the other hand, Cantrip is making too much fuss about me to actually be scum (despite what I said earlier about that being the defense he'll make).
I no longer think Cantrip is scum, but rather Nyxu. I advocate the lynches of MRH and Nyxu now. I think that Cantripmancer should still be examined carefully, but I advocate even more care when examining Nyxu.
Quote from Wheat »
I do know, but alas I don't have the luxury of going back with all these games.
I'm never playing this many at once again if I can help it, no matter how much Iso begs me.
'Tis a hard lesson to learn...I pretty much cap myself at two simultaneously, these days. One, if possible.
Quote from Wheat »
You're lying about MRH's voting "pattern" and using that lie to label him "certain scum".
It's not a lie in my eyes.
Show me the pattern (as defined as "a combination of tendencies defining a consistent or characteristic arrangement"). I thought in order to be a pattern, there had to be repetition of some sort.
Quote from Wheat »
Taken with a grain of sense, I find it works fairly well.
Yes but then it's not really *all* liars, is it?
Touche.
Quote from Wheat »
Ah, here we go. Swishh started the wagon on Annorax. Noob scum don't just go and start wagons on their scummates.
Could you link to this?
Quote from Wheat »
Given how many times Annorax posted, I thought it approximated it well. Regardless,
@All: I don't think I'll have the time; could someone whip up an interaction chart for Annorax either toDay or after I'm gone?
I feel like you're deflecting my avenue of questioning.
Also, is there actually an interaction "chart" that can be used?
Quote from Wheat »
Townie players can be scum; see TMCT in Steins;Gate.
True. However, no one ever really sat down and ever looked at TMCT.
He played so well no one thought it was necessary.
something irks me about Wheat's flipflopping on cantrip. I mean I know I said I thought he was wrong about him, but I sort of would have expected some back and forth about it before he retracted his scum read.
at any rate all 3 of my suspects are being voted now. I still need to review interactions to decide the best lynch today. should have time this afternoon.
something irks me about Wheat's flipflopping on cantrip. I mean I know I said I thought he was wrong about him, but I sort of would have expected some back and forth about it before he retracted his scum read.
I have had some back and forth. That's what led me to believe Cantrip is too sure in his read to be scum.
Also, is there actually an interaction "chart" that can be used?
That question was a bit facetious. A more serious question would be: how do you normally go about creating an interaction chart? I've done this before, but I've always wondered if there are better/worse ways. I've also been told that interaction tallies/charts aren't usually the best way to go, although I've experienced some personal success with ones I've attempted.
Wish I could Seppelscript this up, but eh. Manually works.
Second thought: I was /really/ dumb in shooting TK-421. Based on Annorax interactions he was very townie.
#57: Votes Wheat (RVS)
#73: Unvotes Wheat, FoSes L_McD
#108: "MegaFoSes" L_McD, FoSes Trabant
#138: Responds to swishh, votes L_McD
#159: Mentions "& WG was right... I've modded more games than I've played"
#164: Reaffirms that L_McD was scummy.
#191: Responds to TK.
#217: Talks about iRebel.
#223: Votes MTG~DDS.
#248: "convinced to lynch three townies"
#259: Responds to swishh and MTG~DDS.
#274: Responds to swishh again.
#310: This is the post that seals Wheat for me. He votes Wheat due to OMGUS and he didn't even mention him yesterday. Feels like a snap-distance attempt to me. Also FoSes me.
#332: Talks to Nyxu, says that Wheat is a "steaming pile of WIFOM". He also says "makes no sense". Is that enough to warrant a vote?
#358: Responds to swishh.
#376: Responds to MTG~DDS.
#386: More responses to MTG~DDS.
#414: "Die scum die" to TK.
#421: Responds to Wheat
#446: Says that we have a TK/pinky scumteam. All have flipped town.
#452: Talks to TK again.
#463: pinky WIFOM bah post.
Got cut short there, let me find another time to offer analysis.
Cantripmancer/Magenta Interaction: None.
MRHBlue Interaction: None.
MTG~DDS Interaction: He voted for him, responded to him three times.
Swishh Interaction: Keeps talking to swishh.
Nyxu Interaction: Responds to Nyxu about Wheat.
Wheat_Grinder: Three times. He also votes Wheat, then says we have a TK/pinky scumteam.
I'm fairly sure on Wheat being scum due to Annorax distancing interaction. He doesn't try to push the lynch on Wheat, just says he "doesn't make any sense".
Cantripmancer/Magenta Interaction: None.
MRHBlue Interaction: None.
MTG~DDS Interaction: He voted for him, responded to him three times.
Swishh Interaction: Keeps talking to swishh.
Nyxu Interaction: Responds to Nyxu about Wheat.
Wheat_Grinder: Three times. He also votes Wheat, then says we have a TK/pinky scumteam.
I'm fairly sure on Wheat being scum due to Annorax distancing interaction. He doesn't try to push the lynch on Wheat, just says he "doesn't make any sense".
I want Nyxu lynched tomorrow.
Unvote, vote Wheat_Grinder. It's the choice.
DING DING DING we have a winner on MRH. Cantrip is harder to say since Magenta was never around anyway.
DING DING DING we have a winner on MRH. Cantrip is harder to say since Magenta was never around anyway.
Heh, your panic is showing. Previously you were no longer considering me scum, but now you're smearing/questioning me again.
New data, new analysis. Call it whatever you want, just call it truth on my flip.
Since Nyxu was posting more than you, I think only one interaction points decently towards him being scum. I think there needs to be a lot of hunting though, after I'm gone and MRH is gone.
MRH being scum is as close to a certainty as it gets though.
WELCOME TO THE MIND OF THE GRINDER.
'Tis a hard lesson to learn...I pretty much cap myself at two simultaneously, these days. One, if possible.
I really didn't want to go into Lucian. I really didn't. But Iso needed a favor and he's a bro.
Show me the pattern (as defined as "a combination of tendencies defining a consistent or characteristic arrangement"). I thought in order to be a pattern, there had to be repetition of some sort.
*points to interaction chart*
I'm not going to try now because it hasn't been working out so far, but the interaction chart points to the same conclusion of MRH being scum so I'm not going to bother. I'm sure you'll agree (since you did earlier) that the interaction chart is stronger anyway.
Could you link to this?
Apparently, as I went back for it, he second on the wagon I started.
Well then I guess I have to go to the interaction chart. Looks like there are plenty of swishh interactions with Annorax, so I stand by him being town.
I feel like you're deflecting my avenue of questioning.
Also, is there actually an interaction "chart" that can be used?
It's quite possible I deflected a little.
There's a chart now!
He played so well no one thought it was necessary.
Yes but now we know to be careful this game on lylo.
Now that I've reread that particular interaction, no, I wasn't mixing people up.
DDS in 595: "[WG] Scum flip my best bet is Nyxu, mainly PoE though."
DDS in 597:"Only way I could see MRH/Nyxu is if WG flips town. "
Lolwut? Um...MTG, explain?
Will be finishing reread after family leaves this weekend. I did see this though. Read what my response was in reference to. Incog asked specifically if a team was possible. Original question was; can Nyxu/MRH, be a team. That was what I thought the only way that team was possible, not really a full read. I'm pretty sure I still do not see MRH/Nyxu as last two scum. I'll check more into this later, but that does seem a little out of the context for calling out reads though.
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If the AC repair dude doesn't show up bright and early tomorrow, I'm gonna borrow some of DDS' dental tools to carve out his eye sockets like jack o lanterns.
If your scum read of me was POE based on scum!wg then why would an mrh/Nyx team work with town!wg (which would mean the POE read on me would be null or town)
I have been pretty lax and lenient on the prod front by sending out "pre-prod warnings" around 12 to 24 hours before a prod would be given beyond the standard 72 hour window. However, I will not be sending any pre-prod warnings in the future. Please note this and keep your activity level up.
Deadline remains set to June 7th, 2013 @ 17:00 Pacific / 20:00 Eastern.
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Can you answer my Annorax question? Thanks.
Also please look back at swish in that timeframe. Twice he posts "x and y are scum, (discuss/problem solved)"
Once with annorax and wg. Once with annorax an tk.
Certainty isn't something granted to the town
You might actually have something case worthy, problem comes with your presentation. Part (if not all) of my read on you is your apparent unwillingness to give more than very generalized input coupled with what comes across as being evasive and overly defensive. You don't have to make a big bueatiful posts with all the links and quotes...but you do have to give more than just statements. Good start here, but at least give me post numbers so I can see for myself.
Defensiveness without reasoning looks bad. If we are wrong, show us why! "Woe is me" and fearmongery doesn't help much.
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Honestly, I've already pointed out that I'm getting linked to WG. I don't understand why. Without the "Why" I can't prove it wrong. It's less "Woe is me" and more "Are you guys seeing this too? It doesn't add up that people are justifying a Nyx lynch based on both outcomes of a WG lynch. "
Evasiveness comes from a feeling of being mistrusted. When I have brought something to the table it's counted against me as a 'bad post' or whatever. Why put effort into crafting what seems to only ever be used as ammunition against you? I'd rather expend that effort on [ongoing game] where my inputs are valued.
More to follow. Just spotted something of interest. I'd like to organize it into a separate post.
This looks to me like coaching. I've seen it done elsewhere as well.
This post has always bugged me, mostly because I just don't understand it.
Once Annorax has made something decent of a post, the vote comes off.
Retracted later.
Certainty part one
Certainty 2: Electric Boogaloo
Right now I'm considering the possibility of a WG/Swishh/Annorax scumteam. Swishh showed certainty about Annorax' alignment but seemed to fall off the Annorax wagon day two - that is, until he could put it to l-1. I have trouble reading him as the most "Pro-town" player as Incognito claims.
344 he promised a case on WG/Annorax, but only ever delivered his Annorax case, opting instead to go after TK-421.
The "Elsewhere" mentioning I realize is too cagey. What I mean exactly is I studied ZDS' play in Avatars because he coached mid-game. Yes yes, I know meta from one player doesn't outright apply to another, but Incognito -is- mentored by ZDS, and at least one of them will be able to spot the similarities.
Ah, I can accept this.
Because you had a valid point against Annorax, but instead of waiting for him to respond (or just unvoting without charging off in the direction of another wagon), you diverted the wagon. I feel this demonstrates that you weren't serious in your suspicions of Annorax, and used Trabant's voting choices to derail Annorax's wagon.
(I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're not talking about the first votecount.)
He attacked you D2, in direct OMGUS to your attack on him, well aware that he was going to be under scrutiny. How does this count?
Explain this, please, because I couldn't disagree more.
It's still not telling about MRH. Townies vote townies. Townies follow scum onto townie wagons. I don't agree with MRH's reasoning for voting you, but I can understand it coming from a newer player.
How is it blatantly obvious? You don't know the alignments of swishh or MRH, nor MTG who has been just as non-bussy as Me/Magenta or Nyxu.
The bolded. Is. Not. True. Why do you persist in presenting it as if it is? Making those assertions without checking the vote histories is exactly why I find you scummy. You sure-scummed MRH based on bad data; town does not do this (unless they're kpaca).
Stop smearing and answer the question. Since you claim that you don't know the aligments of anyone but yourself, how does "one scum didn't attack any known scum" equate to "the scumteam isn't bussing this game"?
Mafia is life. Anyone who says differently is doing it wrong.
Your original assertion was that I was scum because Town doesn't get smug like this for someone just ignoring them. Mostly they get a little peeved because their trying to judge the reactions. I interpreted your comment as you admitting that you were purposefully ignoring me, so I asked Wait, what? Did you just admit that you were ignoring me and not V/LA? Because I wasn't getting peeved because you said you were V/LA. You responded with V/LA caused me to ignore you. I didn't have time to respond decently, confirming that you weren't responding because of your V/LA, which was known in-thread. How am I scum for not getting peeved at you ignoring me due to V/LA that you announced in-thread? I wasn't peeved because I knew you couldn't respond.
This is maddening. You had better be scum.
Are we ready to call this Day? I am good with a W_G vote, as I have stated before.
One of my main issues while playing is that I sometimes drop cases suddenly to pursue new ones. I saw LMD get pushed quickly, and I thought he was town so I was not a fan. I saw Annorax get pushed quickly, and even though I had reasoning on him, I was still not a fan because of the quick wagon just moments before. I saw a common thread, and one who was weakly barning to boot. I found it suspicious and so I dropped Annorax for what I thought was the stronger line of questioning.
I'm pretty sure, without going back to look for it, that he was calling me scum before I ever voted him.
You have this writing on the wall with Annorax, it's the most cut and dried pattern ever, and you just go and IGNORE it, despite it having applications in determining the alignments of several players.
MTG and swishh were independently townie. Using that as a baseline, everything else falls together.
You're misunderstanding what I'm saying (perhaps partly because I should have said "didn't" instead of "doesn't"; I was saying that I did not spend a long time looking at the posts between votecounts to determine the entire story because I didn't have the time; on the other hand, I DID have the time to look at just the votecounts, and that pattern was very quickly obvious to me.
I'm talking about just Annorax here. It eliminates everyone but three players.
I counter with another question; if you don't get peeved at someone who can't respond, then why do you get smug at them?
Pretty much /barn except flip the positions.
Why are you asking me?
Annorax made a bad post, and you called him on it. It doesn't feel right that a single player participating in two quick wagons would distract from that. But I don't know that we're getting anywhere on this line of discussion.
Fortunately for review, he only made 22 posts all game, and only 12 of them D1 (before you voted him D2). In those 12 posts, he interacts with you exactly twice. Once in his first post of the game, where he RVS-votes you, and once where he says that you were right about his play history (see below for more on this). So, no, he didn't attack you until you bussed him on D2. Way to leave yourself an out, though, with "without going back to look for it."
FTFY
...but no matter how much you might think they're townie, you don't know, so how can you extrapolate from that??? On that note, remind me what cleared swishh for you?
And I'm saying that I think you're more experienced than to glance at a series of votecounts and make the (really bad) assumption that a quick glance will provide insightful "proof" that a player is scum. Not to mention, you know, that I've proven (yes, really) that it wasn't a pattern.
If we accept that you're town (because he didn't attack you, either). Call me crazy, but I just can't take your word for that. Not to mention that we don't know the alignment of a player he did attack (MTG). Sigh. I feel like we're going round and round on this one, too. Listen, I admit that Annorax seemed not to attack his buddies, but I don't feel like we know enough to make that a generality, and I feel like a big part of your "case" against me and MRH is based on "they didn't vote/attack at all, so they must be scum". My point is that while I don't mind you using that to form your opinions, I do mind you using it as the primary basis for calling someone scum.
Peeved is an emotion reliant on another's actions. I was smug based on my own actions.
=============================================================================
While I was looking through Annorax's posts, I noticed this:
Wheat, I didn't see where you made that assertion; do you have any idea what Annorax was referring to when he said you were "right"?
I also found this little gem:
Foreshadow much? This idea was clearly on his mind.
This is a terrible post. Textbook scum tell is to hint at the existence of neutral roles when there's absolutely no indication of it beforehand.
Good vote by Incognito.
Coaching? You're suggesting that I'm trying to get Annorax to vote himself?
I'll explain it then. Those four things are incompatible because were, for instance, Annorax town, then the remaining scum could have jumped on to hammer a mislynch. This is what I was talking about earlier viz-a-viz blitzing.
You'll have to explain to me why this is a scum tell.
Consider it unretracted.
You're totally glossing over the succession of bad posts TK made. There's a reason Incognito shot him. Furthermore, at the time, it wasn't out of the realm of possibility that Annorax, TK, and Wheat were all scum.
Absolutely. I think you're wrong about Cantrip. S/he's putting forth real townie effort today. Don't mistake eagerness with scumminess. I explained earlier why I thought MRH could be scum with respect to the joint attack on Wheat with Annorax. All that taken into consideration, I'm almost sure the remaining scum lie in MRH/Nyxu/Wheat. I don't have enough time tonight, but hopefully tomorrow I can review for interactions to nail it down.
One final comment: I've seen several players express haphazardness regarding today's lynch. This isn't pro-town. I'm not calling anyone scum for it, but mislynching just to prove someone is town doesn't help anything.
Maybe because you're his scumbuddy?
(While I believe it to be true, this is merely a joke.)
I was seeing bad posts from nearly *everyone* at that point with two quickwagons. I don't like to fight multiple battles at once.
I stand corrected then.
I gave myself that out because I knew it would make you do the work for me to prove me wrong and I'm lazy.
Mmm? Who's lying about what now?
Additional: lynch all liars backfires a lot.
Additional additional: I'm not a fan of adding words to quotes that weren't originally there, from a readability standpoint.
I can extrapolate from it when it supports itself with internal consistency.
I can't remember and I need to catch up in another game. Quote this so that I look for it next time, if you will?
Really? Because that's pretty much exactly how I caught kill-joy in Basic 69.
Well OK it was via use of interaction tables but it paints the same picture as the votecounts.
WHY
DO
YOU
THINK
I
AM
FINE
WITH
BEING
LYNCHED.
Dude MTG is the most townie player in the game right now besides Incognito.
In 116 I post "I know you've played before, but how often?" and in RVS (post 4) I voted him for modding my first game on the site. I think those two ideas combined in his head.
Do you really need to ego-stroke and buddy up to Incognito? If it's a good vote why are you reluctant to do the same??
Deflection, sarcasm. You're not taking this seriously, are you?
You said "Let's not" to Annorax's plan, then drop a vote on him. You disapproved of his behavior and lo and behold when he changes it (below) the vote comes off.
You really meant to imply that a full scumteam would dogpile on a L-3 for a single mislynch? Scum don't trade 1:1, why would you even remotely consider scum trading 3:1 with that tactic (Because three people jumping on a wagon is very, very obvious)
So now you think I was slowrolling the hammer to seem more town or are you just un-retracting because now I'm casing you?
Fun Fact: I've made a point of establishing slowhammer as a null tell. I do it as scum, I do it as town. Why would I use a null tell to seem more town?
There's "Indications" and "Certainty" I am calling you out for the latter.
You do realize that you're independently scummy, right?
After thinking about this game for a couple of hours, I'm inclined to trust my initial gut read and vote Wheat_Grinder. There are a couple of scattered paranoid thoughts, but I'm willing to quell those until we lynch him.
Ugh.
I feel like /anyone/ could be scum at this point, and I'm also fearful that the Wheat/Cantrip dichotomy is going to backfire.
*bites lip*
I'm ready to vote Wheat whenever, but preferably this week.
Been trying to post content since before you voted.
I only just found the thread to pull.
If the suspicion on me was exclusively because I'm "Independently scummy", people wouldn't be justifying it with WG's flip. This is what I'm trying to point out. You actually stacked a case up. Swishh is OMGUSing hard, but a lot of what I'm seeing? "If WG flips X, then Nyxu is probably Scum"
So, @ Anyone who seems to think they need a WG flip to call me scum: Why?
All joking aside, I didn't like that he chose to ask the question that way because it does reek of asking for approval. And thus I'm brought back to MRH making bad posts but being attacked by a player who's been playing well all game, but who I most suspect as scum (you), with said suspicion primarily based on your really bad attack on MRH.
Hmm, I have to admit that this fits your behavior in the other game I've played with you.
You're lying about MRH's voting "pattern" and using that lie to label him "certain scum".
Taken with a grain of sense, I find it works fairly well.
Yeah, neither am I, really, but sometimes it adds the perfect emphasis.
I would argue that you don't have enough knowledge about alignments to establish consistency.
Keepin' you accountable, at your request.
Interaction tables =/= Votecounts. Interaction tables have been compiled through tallying of specific events. Votecounts are ongoing and are provided at (mostly) random times throughout the game, so not only is there often repetitive information (which can't be mistaken for "patterns"), but there are often vote/unvote actions that aren't recorded at all. Votecounts can provide you with indications to be researched, but making assertions off of a list of unanalyzed votecounts is scummy.
BECAUSE.
YOU.
ARE.
FRONTING.
TOWN.
IN.
AN.
ATTEMPT.
TO.
PREVENT.
THAT.
LYNCH.
Repeatedly saying "I'm so town that I will sacrifice myself to prove my point" reinforces the idea in your reader's minds that "you're town!" But I don't believe that you're really ok with your lynch.
Townie players can be scum; see TMCT in Steins;Gate.
This is not a post in your favor. Scum are more prone to EWPing errors and are usually much more self-conscious of those errors. I seriously doubt that anyone would have noticed the double question mark if you hadn't felt the need to draw attention to it.
@All: I'm male.
My read was: if WG. Flipped scum, Nyxu was possibility. That hopefully answering your question.
First off, please explain the bolded. Not sure what you are trying to say.
What you posted doesn't reflect: my first post that had reads not having you connected at all to WG. (When i duct taped you to him). The second concluded with: Which doesn't state that either. Why the extreme defensiveness, when the accusations really weren't there?
Nor does it reflect what Incognito posted:
My understanding of what Incognito posted was he had similar feelings on it.
There were other posts, but two quick ones:
Were a couple of posting interactions that landed to feeling that Nyxu/WG team was a possibility.
@Incognito: I agree the Cantrip/Wheat dichotomy needs resolution before we can really progress. Question is, you feel good moving ahead now? Do we have enough to go on tomorrow?
If WG Town flip, we have his reads and his revealed alignment will help confirm. WG lynch looks like the right play. I'm going to read back through to make sure all my questions were adequately answered. Assuming I find no discrepancies that cannot be rectified, ready to vote.
@Cantrip: I'm sure it can be found, but beyond Wheat, what are your reads?
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I supposed that, if Town!Nyxu exists, and both Scum! and Town!WG indicate Scum!Nyxu, then WG must, by the silly logic strung together with various people's conflicted reads, WG would have to be neither Town nor Scum.
Again, sarcasm and hyperbole, and not particularly targeting your linking of myself and WG.
However, your offered explanation for Incognito does not follow what Incognito himself said: That he believes me independently scummy.
Can my voice be James Earl Jones?
The Incog quote I linked was only showing he wasn't linking you to WG either. At least not with town flip, more independent. I agree with the rest of your previous statements about reads on you though. (I think). Your wording is sometimes difficult to understand.
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And yes, Incognito has me as independently scummy- without linking me to WG. I can't exactly fault him for it either. My head wasn't in the game until now.
Yes, but it's only one aspect, and Incog is pretty much confirmed town. I wasn't saying you're definitely scum for it; I was saying that scum are more likely to obsess over errors. I called Hawk on a similar edit-issue in Steins;Gate, and he proved scum.
Just like with any scumtell, an amount of interpretation is key. IIRC, Hawk's error was specifically in revising a statement from an extreme level of suspicion to a low level of suspicion but leaving both in the post; that showed that he was crafting and reconsidering elements, not posting true feelings. Standard typos, or basic errors such as starting a thought, jagging off to research it, and never returning to finish it, should still be examined, but aren't as scummy as others, such as what I'm accusing you of: obsessing over your own trivial typos.
Nyxu, maybe swishh.
Can you point out the bolded?
Gladly.
DDS in 595: "[WG] Scum flip my best bet is Nyxu, mainly PoE though."
DDS in 597:"Only way I could see MRH/Nyxu is if WG flips town. "
MRHblue (1): Wheat_Grinder
Wheat_Grinder (1): Cantripmancer
Nyxu (1): Incognito
Not Voting: MRHBlue; MTG~DDS; Nyxu; swishh
With 7 alive, it's 4 to lynch!
Deadline: June 7, 2013 @ 17:00 Pacific [20:00 Eastern]
I was ignoring it for awhile (partly because of fighting Cantrip, partly because I thought evidence pointed away from you being scum) but I can ignore it no longer.
You care *way* too much about your public perception.
On the other hand, Cantrip is making too much fuss about me to actually be scum (despite what I said earlier about that being the defense he'll make).
I no longer think Cantrip is scum, but rather Nyxu. I advocate the lynches of MRH and Nyxu now. I think that Cantripmancer should still be examined carefully, but I advocate even more care when examining Nyxu.
I do know, but alas I don't have the luxury of going back with all these games.
I'm never playing this many at once again if I can help it, no matter how much Iso begs me.
It's not a lie in my eyes.
Yes but then it's not really *all* liars, is it?
I would argue I do.
This was about why I thought swishh was town. I now have time to go after it. Let's see here...
Ah, here we go. Swishh started the wagon on Annorax. Noob scum don't just go and start wagons on their scummates.
Given how many times Annorax posted, I thought it approximated it well. Regardless,
@All: I don't think I'll have the time; could someone whip up an interaction chart for Annorax either toDay or after I'm gone?
To be fair I'm not REALLY ok with my lynch but it's pretty obvious I'm going to kick the bucket. All I can do is post as much as I can before it happens to leave behind as much info as possible.
True. However, no one ever really sat down and ever looked at TMCT.
Wheat, I'll try to whip up that interaction chart... tomorrow possibly? Or Saturday; Fridays aren't a good day for me.
Works for me.
Just looking for basic reasonings to see why people linked me to him
Lolwut? Um...MTG, explain?
'Tis a hard lesson to learn...I pretty much cap myself at two simultaneously, these days. One, if possible.
Show me the pattern (as defined as "a combination of tendencies defining a consistent or characteristic arrangement"). I thought in order to be a pattern, there had to be repetition of some sort.
Touche.
Could you link to this?
I feel like you're deflecting my avenue of questioning.
Also, is there actually an interaction "chart" that can be used?
He played so well no one thought it was necessary.
at any rate all 3 of my suspects are being voted now. I still need to review interactions to decide the best lynch today. should have time this afternoon.
I have had some back and forth. That's what led me to believe Cantrip is too sure in his read to be scum.
That question was a bit facetious. A more serious question would be: how do you normally go about creating an interaction chart? I've done this before, but I've always wondered if there are better/worse ways. I've also been told that interaction tallies/charts aren't usually the best way to go, although I've experienced some personal success with ones I've attempted.
Second thought: I was /really/ dumb in shooting TK-421. Based on Annorax interactions he was very townie.
#57: Votes Wheat (RVS)
#73: Unvotes Wheat, FoSes L_McD
#108: "MegaFoSes" L_McD, FoSes Trabant
#138: Responds to swishh, votes L_McD
#159: Mentions "& WG was right... I've modded more games than I've played"
#164: Reaffirms that L_McD was scummy.
#191: Responds to TK.
#217: Talks about iRebel.
#223: Votes MTG~DDS.
#248: "convinced to lynch three townies"
#259: Responds to swishh and MTG~DDS.
#274: Responds to swishh again.
#310: This is the post that seals Wheat for me. He votes Wheat due to OMGUS and he didn't even mention him yesterday. Feels like a snap-distance attempt to me. Also FoSes me.
#332: Talks to Nyxu, says that Wheat is a "steaming pile of WIFOM". He also says "makes no sense". Is that enough to warrant a vote?
#358: Responds to swishh.
#376: Responds to MTG~DDS.
#386: More responses to MTG~DDS.
#414: "Die scum die" to TK.
#421: Responds to Wheat
#446: Says that we have a TK/pinky scumteam. All have flipped town.
#452: Talks to TK again.
#463: pinky WIFOM bah post.
Got cut short there, let me find another time to offer analysis.
Cantripmancer/Magenta Interaction: None.
MRHBlue Interaction: None.
MTG~DDS Interaction: He voted for him, responded to him three times.
Swishh Interaction: Keeps talking to swishh.
Nyxu Interaction: Responds to Nyxu about Wheat.
Wheat_Grinder: Three times. He also votes Wheat, then says we have a TK/pinky scumteam.
I'm fairly sure on Wheat being scum due to Annorax distancing interaction. He doesn't try to push the lynch on Wheat, just says he "doesn't make any sense".
I want Nyxu lynched tomorrow.
Unvote, vote Wheat_Grinder. It's the choice.
DING DING DING we have a winner on MRH. Cantrip is harder to say since Magenta was never around anyway.
Heh, your panic is showing. Previously you were no longer considering me scum, but now you're smearing/questioning me again.
What else needs to be discussed today?
New data, new analysis. Call it whatever you want, just call it truth on my flip.
Since Nyxu was posting more than you, I think only one interaction points decently towards him being scum. I think there needs to be a lot of hunting though, after I'm gone and MRH is gone.
MRH being scum is as close to a certainty as it gets though.
WELCOME TO THE MIND OF THE GRINDER.
I really didn't want to go into Lucian. I really didn't. But Iso needed a favor and he's a bro.
*points to interaction chart*
I'm not going to try now because it hasn't been working out so far, but the interaction chart points to the same conclusion of MRH being scum so I'm not going to bother. I'm sure you'll agree (since you did earlier) that the interaction chart is stronger anyway.
Apparently, as I went back for it, he second on the wagon I started.
Well then I guess I have to go to the interaction chart. Looks like there are plenty of swishh interactions with Annorax, so I stand by him being town.
It's quite possible I deflected a little.
There's a chart now!
Yes but now we know to be careful this game on lylo.
Will be finishing reread after family leaves this weekend. I did see this though. Read what my response was in reference to. Incog asked specifically if a team was possible. Original question was; can Nyxu/MRH, be a team. That was what I thought the only way that team was possible, not really a full read. I'm pretty sure I still do not see MRH/Nyxu as last two scum. I'll check more into this later, but that does seem a little out of the context for calling out reads though.
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This game needs to progress.
If your scum read of me was POE based on scum!wg then why would an mrh/Nyx team work with town!wg (which would mean the POE read on me would be null or town)
Already sent a prod notice to MRHBlue. Official prod will be sent at 17:00 PM Pacific.
I have been pretty lax and lenient on the prod front by sending out "pre-prod warnings" around 12 to 24 hours before a prod would be given beyond the standard 72 hour window. However, I will not be sending any pre-prod warnings in the future. Please note this and keep your activity level up.
Deadline remains set to June 7th, 2013 @ 17:00 Pacific / 20:00 Eastern.
Thanks in advance,
~ Arn