For Iso vs Tom: Tom feels like the usual flailing town. Iso also feels very town, but like FO said, I would not be surprised if Iso flips scum because Iso is just that good?
I'll give you something to do PG; please explain why you feel that I am "flailing". I don't believe that I am.
How likely do you think it is that Iso is scum? And why?
EBWODP: You prolly have a gut read on me... Similar to how I have a gut read on Rhand and LMNOP... except I can actually case them if need be... Maybe tomorrow I'll get off my lazy bum and do it... But tonight is my mother's birthday and we're about to have cake. Yay cake!
For Iso vs Tom: Tom feels like the usual flailing town. Iso also feels very town, but like FO said, I would not be surprised if Iso flips scum because Iso is just that good?
I'll give you something to do PG; please explain why you feel that I am "flailing". I don't believe that I am.
How likely do you think it is that Iso is scum? And why?
In KoTH Mafia, didn't somewhat the same thing happen when you were casing Stardust and people thought you were scummy for it? Reading you here feels similar to reading you there. And there I had labelled you flailing town too... I guess people tunnel on you because they feel that your play is scummy?
As for Iso, he is delivering a town performance, and so far I have not seen anything overtly scummy. Because it's Iso though, I'm afraid we'll need to see some bodies first before a definite read can be made.
For Iso vs Tom: Tom feels like the usual flailing town. Iso also feels very town, but like FO said, I would not be surprised if Iso flips scum because Iso is just that good?
I'll give you something to do PG; please explain why you feel that I am "flailing". I don't believe that I am.
How likely do you think it is that Iso is scum? And why?
In KoTH Mafia, didn't somewhat the same thing happen when you were casing Stardust and people thought you were scummy for it? Reading you here feels similar to reading you there. And there I had labelled you flailing town too... I guess people tunnel on you because they feel that your play is scummy?
Goodness, a lot of your statements are ending in question marks recently.
I still don't know why you think I'm flailing town. Just because I'm town and people think I'm scum doesn't make me "flailing", as far as my knowledge of the word goes.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
So... why don't we do a mass name claim or something? That was proposed earlier and I didn't hear much opposition to it.
He never reacted on the RVS mass claim and now all of a sudden he brings it up again. I don't know wether it's meant as diverting or fishing or both, but it's scummy as hell.
vote: Tom
Why is it scummy? You bring up the possibility of fishing; why then did you not bring that up when the mass name claim was originally proposed?
You also bring up diverting, but honestly, how am I supposed to show that I'm town without trying to take action and get this game going?
I did bring up how a mass name claim can reveal PR's and not scum. (#77)
Wanting to show that you're town sounds like something only scum wants to do. If you're town, you would worry about catching scum instead.
@Rhand: After browsing through this, I fail to see how a mass name claim would hurt. As a matter of fact, I think my character is listed under 'other staff'...
@PG: It's stated literally in paragraph 2 that "It is common to ascend through the ranks by assassinating superiors". Where your wizard is on that page is irrelevant. The fact that you are a wizard is enough to know that you would like to see the headmaster dead. In other words: any wizard can be scum.
As for PR's: read the description of Ponder Stibbons. Again, literally from the wiki: "Ponder Stibbons fulfills the role of the one person in the organisation who knows what's going on". Easy NK target, and that's just from the Wiki.
If any of the scum members actually read the books, a name claim can give away all the info they need.
I know you like to call lazyness in your defense, but if you want to point to a wiki as proof that a mass claim can't harm town, you should start by really reading that wiki.
Back from GP: AC. Not the result I wanted. In any case, I see no reason why a vanilla town claim would stop anything and see no reason for Tom to still be alive. I'll case PG tomorrow, and can happily provide a case on Tom if someone needs it.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Just to thwart all this nonsense, I'm just going to claim. I'm Dr. Hicks, Professor of Post-Mortem Communications. I'm in essence Vanilla town, except that I can hand out a leaflet about my latest theatrical production to any player that has no effect. This is why I think Tom's claim is 100% true, although I totally disagree with any of the reasons that he was being run up in the first place.
Next, I'm going to Unvote. I actually believe that Misting's actions and mischaracterizations just stem from him misunderstanding my responses rather than a malicious misrep.
Next, I'm going to Vote: Iso. He pushed a wagon against Tom by basically berating him for pretty much no reason and I totally get why Tom was frustrated with both Wessel and Iso; they don't listen and they misconstrue things in the worst possible way. Anyway, Iso also voted me with a "Well they both can't be Town" remark, which to me I read as an attempt at a Mafia 2 for 1 (encourage 2 Twonies arguing with each other, lynch one and when he turns up Town you can lynch the other).
Don't let Iso's volume of posts fool you. Don't let Wessel's proclamation that this is "Townie-Iso" fool you. Those two are scum.
Well that's just silly. All of my points against Tom are completely congruous. I wasn't intending to set up a dichotomy between Misting and you - what I meant by that was that I think you're more likely to be scum than Misting, so if you flip scum, it essentially clears Misting.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Well that's just silly. All of my points against Tom are completely congruous.
Your points against Tom were basically nitpicking, then getting frustrated with him when you didn't give you the answer you wanted. You keep referring to "your case" and "the points against you" as if it was some concrete thing that everyone can point to, when in fact it was Wessel's post that was the only case ever presented and he addressed it. You attack him for Ad Hom.... with Ad Hom attacks. You atttack his playstyle and his defense of his playstyle... while defending your own playstyle in the same manner.
Just because you keep saying the same thing over and over again doesn't make it any more true. You keep saying that Tom didn't address points against him when its obvious that he did.
The ONLY thing I didn't like about what Tom does is that he places a Vote even when he's not convinced that the other player is scum (which is what he did in Post 121). But after that was discussed and put to bed with your cryptic post of a :love:, I don't see you even bringing that up again. You only go on the attack once tom responds to Wessel's posts. That is scummy to me.
I wasn't intending to set up a dichotomy between Misting and you - what I meant by that was that I think you're more likely to be scum than Misting, so if you flip scum, it essentially clears Misting.
I can see where this would be true, but what I'm saying is that if you got a bandwagon going on me and got me lynched, when I flip Town you can turn the whole thing on Misting as a "Well FO flipped Town, so Misting must be scum".
I also think its a double false-dichotomy in that there was no guarantee that EITHER of us is Mafia from what went down. You should know better than anyone that Townies get into it with other townies all the time, especially on Day 1.
Well that's just silly. All of my points against Tom are completely congruous.
Your points against Tom were basically nitpicking, then getting frustrated with him when you didn't give you the answer you wanted. You keep referring to "your case" and "the points against you" as if it was some concrete thing that everyone can point to, when in fact it was Wessel's post that was the only case ever presented and he addressed it. You attack him for Ad Hom.... with Ad Hom attacks. You atttack his playstyle and his defense of his playstyle... while defending your own playstyle in the same manner.
That's not true in the slightest. I hammered point after point against Tom in my questioning of him. If Tom can't give me an answer with sufficient townie rationale behind it, then I see it as scummy, and I expect everyone should pursue who they think is scum for whatever reason they deem fit.
Quote from Forgotten One »
Just because you keep saying the same thing over and over again doesn't make it any more true. You keep saying that Tom didn't address points against him when its obvious that he did.
I didn't say "Tom didn't respond", I said "Tom didn't respond adequately". Is there a reason you're choosing to ignore this obviously important difference?
Quote from Forgotten One »
The ONLY thing I didn't like about what Tom does is that he places a Vote even when he's not convinced that the other player is scum (which is what he did in Post 121). But after that was discussed and put to bed with your cryptic post of a :love:, I don't see you even bringing that up again. You only go on the attack once tom responds to Wessel's posts. That is scummy to me.
Why is that [my action] scummy to you? I was content to push your wagon because you are one of the three people I think are most likely to be scum, but when the momentum shifted to Tom, of course I jumped to his wagon, as I also think Tom is scum! What's the point in continuing my push if it's going to be for naught at that point? Besides, you were still resolving your "misunderstanding" with Misting and I was fine to watch that play out while Wessel and I pressured Tom.
Quote from Forgotten One »
I wasn't intending to set up a dichotomy between Misting and you - what I meant by that was that I think you're more likely to be scum than Misting, so if you flip scum, it essentially clears Misting.
I can see where this would be true, but what I'm saying is that if you got a bandwagon going on me and got me lynched, when I flip Town you can turn the whole thing on Misting as a "Well FO flipped Town, so Misting must be scum".
Yes, but I'm willing to hedge my bets, given that you're pretty obviously scum at this point.
Quote from Forgotten One »
I also think its a double false-dichotomy in that there was no guarantee that EITHER of us is Mafia from what went down. You should know better than anyone that Townies get into it with other townies all the time, especially on Day 1.
I never said anything implying otherwise. What's your point? You're acting like I don't know this.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Then lynch me so everyone can see how wrong you are... again. Eventually the rest of the Town will see that you are not acting in their best interest, and if it takes my death to prove my Townieness and show them that then at least my point gets made. Given the state of this game, it's a win-win siutation s far as I'm concerned.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@PG: It's stated literally in paragraph 2 that "It is common to ascend through the ranks by assassinating superiors". Where your wizard is on that page is irrelevant. The fact that you are a wizard is enough to know that you would like to see the headmaster dead. In other words: any wizard can be scum.
As for PR's: read the description of Ponder Stibbons. Again, literally from the wiki: "Ponder Stibbons fulfills the role of the one person in the organisation who knows what's going on". Easy NK target, and that's just from the Wiki.
If any of the scum members actually read the books, a name claim can give away all the info they need.
I know you like to call lazyness in your defense, but if you want to point to a wiki as proof that a mass claim can't harm town, you should start by really reading that wiki.
A big FoS to you.
I think you're giving WAY too much weight on flavor. Just because the flavor indicates that someone might be cop or doc or vig doesn't necessarily make them that. Games are suppose to be made so that such flavor gaming does not happen.
Also, Ponder Stibbons knowing what goes on all around the university doesn't make him an instant PR... Is it possible? Yes, but may not be the case. For all we know RL didn't even choose him as one of the characters to be played.
Anyway, even after reading that wiki I don't really feel like a mass name claim because I don't think that'd get us anywhere... The point I'm trying to get across is that you should not think it's a scum indicator that people are proposing a mass name claim.
@Tom: Remember the list of really vague answers I mentioned that I said you gave me? You could start there.
Please just link me to the specific answers I gave that you don't like. It makes a heck of a lot more sense for you to do that than me to re-read the thread yet again and have to guess at which answers you don't like.
Back from GP: AC. Not the result I wanted. In any case, I see no reason why a vanilla town claim would stop anything and see no reason for Tom to still be alive. I'll case PG tomorrow, and can happily provide a case on Tom if someone needs it.
Hoho, Iso is obvtown? I'd like to see where you are getting that from.
Iso is town when he's happy-go-lucky in his posting and is pro-town in his questioning. scumIso attacks people for BS reasons
Unvote, vote: Iso
I'm fed up with Iso this game. He has continued to push the wagon on me beyond all logic. When I've asked where all the points on me are (that he claims exist) he refuses to find them and says "go find them yourself. read my posts." I've done that, and still can't find them. Neither can several other players this game.
I've acknowledged a couple of recent things he's pointed out, but I've also proved them wrong. Except for the fact that I don't have any scum reads, which is, to my knowledge, the only case left against me (and needless to say, not a very good one).
and he isn't doing that now. All in all, Iso is obvtown.
Maybe you then could find the good reasons Iso brings up against me (that I haven't proved wrong). I sure as hell can't.
Just to thwart all this nonsense, I'm just going to claim. I'm Dr. Hicks, Professor of Post-Mortem Communications. I'm in essence Vanilla town, except that I can hand out a leaflet about my latest theatrical production to any player that has no effect. This is why I think Tom's claim is 100% true, although I totally disagree with any of the reasons that he was being run up in the first place.
Next, I'm going to Unvote. I actually believe that Misting's actions and mischaracterizations just stem from him misunderstanding my responses rather than a malicious misrep.
Next, I'm going to Vote: Iso. He pushed a wagon against Tom by basically berating him for pretty much no reason and I totally get why Tom was frustrated with both Wessel and Iso; they don't listen and they misconstrue things in the worst possible way. Anyway, Iso also voted me with a "Well they both can't be Town" remark, which to me I read as an attempt at a Mafia 2 for 1 (encourage 2 Twonies arguing with each other, lynch one and when he turns up Town you can lynch the other).
Don't let Iso's volume of posts fool you. Don't let Wessel's proclamation that this is "Townie-Iso" fool you. Those two are scum.
Yay even more people with sense in them! I temporarily thought that race of people were gone from this Earth
I don't see Wessel as scum, but I think I agree about Iso. I have been unwilling to vote him until now because his early game play felt really townish to me, but after all this BS I'm having a hard time believing that he's town.
---
With the recent goings-on, I can now offer a T/S list:
Iso
Rhand
IB
EtR
PG
LMNOP (who is getting replaced)
LordMD (who isn't playing)
AG
Wessel
Misting
Forgotten One
Tom
I preemptively claimed hoping to avoid being lynched (and to avoid you guys lynching Tom for no good reason), but I'm also not naive enough to think that its going to make a lot of difference here. I just want everyone to know that if you lynch me that they should know exactly what I think about this mess and how you have orchestrated it.
To be honest, here is my biggest problem. I have scum reads on pretty much everyone in this game EXCEPT Tom right now. This game is absolutely driving me nuts because of all the total BS that is being passed off as "logic" and "evidence". It's like a bad Twilight Zone episode... But we obviously don't have 7+ Mafiosos in this game, so I've got to start paring back what's being said that's just misguided or misunderstood versus what I think is being done delibrerate and is misguiding. From my point of view from where I am standing, that leads me right to you.
@Tom: I refuse to engage you further. I have illustrated what I mean quite succinctly and talking to you anymore makes me want to type in all caps and swear a lot. I will be voting you come Day 2.
@FO: Cool, thanks for volunteering. Unvote, Vote FO
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@Tom: I refuse to engage you further. I have illustrated what I mean quite succinctly and talking to you anymore makes me want to type in all caps and swear a lot. I will be voting you come Day 2.
Right, I'm sure you've illustrated what you mean quite succinctly. That's precisely why 3 other players besides myself have no goddamn clue what your case on me is.
Your insistence that you have a case on me while refusing time and time again to provide examples of it just doesn't fly. I want you dead.
Reading through the wagon again, I do get the feeling that Iso has just been trying to off Tom for being townie. He even admitted that he planned on going after Tom day 2. Isn't that a scum tell?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Yes, Tom. I am using meta. I hear it's suppose to be bad, but I am not the best player anyway, so we'll see where that takes me. Lemme do a reread to see if I can find anything...
After rereading, I can unfortunately see both where Iso and Tom are coming from. Tom feels singled out by Iso and doesn't understand why because he feels he has answered all questions asked of him. Iso feels that Tom has not been replying in a Town fashion and feels that Tom's answers are weak (all of them).
Also with that reread, I don't think FO is town. (or if he is, he's not doing a very good job of it) Vote: Forgotten One
And here's some more of me being useless again...
Unofficial Vote count:
Forgotten One (4): Misting, Wessel, Iso, PikachuGundam
Iso (2): Forgotten One, Tom
Tom (3): IB, EtR, Rhand
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'd vote Iso over that custard, but I don't like custard...
PG, what is this. Your first line shows you unvoting because RVS is over. Your second line says that if you liked custard you would be voting for Iso, which I would call a RVS vote.
Hypocrisy toward PG for the custard thing, which TOM IS ALREADY VOTING ISO OVER. Then for Iso's "weak answer", tom puts an awful real vote on Iso.
I'm sorry about your conditions, but I'm not sure why you are bringing them up. You didn't have to rush to give me an answer you weren't sure about; I would much rather you give me a solid answer when you get a chance, even if it takes a while for you to get to a position where you can do that.
Also, I never called you scum.
Never called you scum, does not compute with voting you for a weak answer.
Are you going to answer my question? What do you think of Misting's role fishing?
I don't see it as scummy.
1) It's a weak scheme. I doubt too much role information would ever come to the scum by doing such a thing, and randomly suggesting that someone is a cop is almost obviously going to result in a lot of attention directed at the suggester. I can't see the mafia wanting that much attention for very little if any gain.
2) Misting's post is joey's post in Basic 66. I think that shows effort put into a town gambit, rather than an excuse that mafia can lean on.
3) Misting isn't playing at all like he did in KOTH, so based on meta (and the above) I have him leaning town.
I missed you saying that you were sick.
@Tom: can you confirm that you know about the midnight working?
How did you miss him saying that he was sick when you quoted and referred to him saying that he had bronchitis?
I did not know about the midnight working, but that is most likely because I don't remember such details in past games. I don't think he is lying, but if you really want me to I'll try to scan though MM4 to find where he said it.
@Tom: I don't see you ask me any defined questions in your last post. Or if you did, you didn't signify it with a question mark. But my second line was one last RVS jibe. And aren't you still in RVS if you're licking custard off the floor? Like I said... I'm not the one licking custard off the floor...
RVS is random voting stage. Just because I've been making jokes about custard doesn't mean I'm in RVS; you suggesting that you might vote him for the custard alone does, though.
1) It's a weak scheme. I doubt too much role information would ever come to the scum by doing such a thing, and randomly suggesting that someone is a cop is almost obviously going to result in a lot of attention directed at the suggester. I can't see the mafia wanting that much attention for very little if any gain.
What is your opinion on Wessel asking Misting why he thinks Iso is a cop?
I don't have much of an opinion on it. It's a question that makes sense.
2) Misting's post is joey's post in Basic 66. I think that shows effort put into a town gambit, rather than an excuse that mafia can lean on.
He might as well have searched for a town gambit in another game to copy here as mafia so that when he gets called out on it, he can use the other game as proof that it's a town gambit.
Right, but I think that is less likely.
If you're voting Iso for custard, and you give PG crap about custard, and make custard jokes, you're attempting to prolong the dead RVS.
In short, Tom's been doing not pro-town activity, and the few times he's been trying to seem to be 'scumhunting' were, frankly, too weak for words. It seems more like he was trying to paint especially Iso as scum.
Who has been doing pro-town activity and scumhunting? Nothing much has happened this game from what I can tell. So far I saw Iso's RVS comment as strange and questioned him on it, and right now there are a couple players giving me scum vibes, but outside of that I have not seen much worth commenting on. That said, I'll try to make time to reread the game in the next couple days to see if I've missed something.
@Tom: I refuse to engage you further. I have illustrated what I mean quite succinctly and talking to you anymore makes me want to type in all caps and swear a lot. I will be voting you come Day 2.
This shows me that you don't listen.
Quote from Iso »
@FO: Cool, thanks for volunteering. Unvote, Vote FO
And this shows me that you are playing deaf.
@PikachuGundam: Out of curiosity, why do you think I am not Town? Even if its that you agree with someone else's argument, I'd like to hear how you came to your conclusion. I don't need a huge PBPA, just a brief statement. I want you on record for your vote.
Re-reading the entire thread again, I've no excuse for the lack of posts, transfering schools and physics makes me mentally dead (It took me the better part of a day to figure out who the hell golden arches was :stupid:)
It's gonna take me a bit to get through everything as I want to, and will make a case/go in depth with my T/S list
(borrowing/stealing Tom's template), I've little theory/meta to go off of other than the couple of games I've read,
Forgotten One - The whole game I've thought this guy was scum, his last couple of posts helped, but everytime I reread his posts I go right back to thinking he's scum, his posting is aggressive, he's very assured that Misting was scum, and for little reason other than "Kpaca"
Tom - Not much to say that hasn't been said already, I really don't feel confidant calling him scum, but I've little reason to think he's town
Pikachugundam - He, like I, hasn't posted much.
Wessel - Need to actually examine his posts a bit more.
iso - he's been active, scum hunts, that said, he and tom seem like the most able to pull of being town while scum. Unlike Tom, I don't feel confidant calling him town, but I don't think he's scum.
InfectiousBaloth: His vote against Pikachugundam stuck out like a sore thumb to me, I believe he has sense explained it (the last two pages are kind of a blur as of writing, I have school in an hour and wanted to post something before I get replaced.), but it irked me that it took him so long to do so
Misting - Need to reread his posts, but nothing really grabs me, his replies to FO I felt were acceptable.
EtR/Rhand: Oh yeah, they're in this game
(@Misting: I meant to post this...a long time ago, but yeah, I didn't catch your gambit post being DJ's with the names changed, notably I was on the lurking scum team in his I think, although it did look familiar.)
Will go in depth with my reads a bit further later today or tomorrow.
With the recent goings-on, I can now offer a T/S list:
Iso
Rhand
IB
EtR
PG
LMNOP (who is getting replaced)
LordMD (who isn't playing)
AG
Wessel
Misting
Forgotten One
Tom
I assume this list is ordered in Most scummy to least scummy. If that's the case you have the 4 people that voted you as most scummy. I find that strange.
I also consider it strange that you stated you had not formed a read on Iso but now you have him as top of your scum list.
As for my response to your question, I apologize for being snarky, I'm just really frustrated with this game right now. I've also clearly stated like twice that I have no clear read on Iso at this time.
Just to thwart all this nonsense, I'm just going to claim. I'm Dr. Hicks, Professor of Post-Mortem Communications. I'm in essence Vanilla town, except that I can hand out a leaflet about my latest theatrical production to any player that has no effect. This is why I think Tom's claim is 100% true, although I totally disagree with any of the reasons that he was being run up in the first place.
Next, I'm going to Unvote. I actually believe that Misting's actions and mischaracterizations just stem from him misunderstanding my responses rather than a malicious misrep.
Next, I'm going to Vote: Iso. He pushed a wagon against Tom by basically berating him for pretty much no reason and I totally get why Tom was frustrated with both Wessel and Iso; they don't listen and they misconstrue things in the worst possible way. Anyway, Iso also voted me with a "Well they both can't be Town" remark, which to me I read as an attempt at a Mafia 2 for 1 (encourage 2 Twonies arguing with each other, lynch one and when he turns up Town you can lynch the other).
Don't let Iso's volume of posts fool you. Don't let Wessel's proclamation that this is "Townie-Iso" fool you. Those two are scum.
Unvote. I don't see this being an attack from a scum. Or, rather, I think this shows actual thought and consideration of the two arguing parties.
to be clear, though, I still want answers to my questions of you, FO.
Anyway, you can add me to he list of people not seeing the attack on Tom. I've been through the entire argument taking notes on the various points made against him, and marked them off once he explained. I also disagree with a few of the points being scumtells anyway (such as the new-mass claim suggestion and his questioning of a supposedly "obvtown" Iso). There are a couple minor things which got overlooked (by everyone), which I will now bring back up. Tom, can you please explain why Rhands original vote on you (which you said you ddin't like and were called a mudslinger for) was bad? Also, from the time you said "I have scum vibes coming from a few people" (before the argument) to I have no scum" reads, what changed.
IB's case is complete nonsense. All of those have been addressed before in some form or another. His voting reasons, PG, FO, LMNOP, and this "deflection".
@Wessel: Are people who you consider to be strongly town, though not confirmed in some way, not subject to questioning? I ask because of you earlier statement "in conjunction with Iso being fairly obvtown".
I don't know who my vote should be on yet. I've got some bad vibes from Rhand which I need to look into, and I just don't know about Iso. On another note, LMcD exists!
----------------------------------------
Hey, Proph!
@FO: The post that stuck out to me for you not being town is that you claimed to be a very experienced mafia player, but from my reread through, the only real interactions I've seen from you are between you and Misting (mainly you defending yourself) with 0 scumhunting.
@FO: The post that stuck out to me for you not being town is that you claimed to be a very experienced mafia player, but from my reread through, the only real interactions I've seen from you are between you and Misting (mainly you defending yourself) with 0 scumhunting.
Nothing about the interaction between Misting and I came accross as scumhunting? None of my comments about Wessel? None of my recent comments on Tom being town? Nothing about my current vote on Iso?
Perhaps your view of what constitutes "scumhunting" needs some reevaluation. In my experience, scumhunting comes in very different forms. Just because I'm not posting in the same volume as Iso doesn't mean I'm not hunting scum. Conversely, Just because Iso has 3 times the number of posts of anyone else doesn't mean he's scumhunting either...
We are talking about the same post. Your Gambit Post is Post 50, and my immediate response was post 52.
I'll start with this whole argument. Now, FO has been contending that my statement that he made no response to this post before making this post is false and a misrepresentation. Technically, he did make this post immediatly afterwards, to which we had a small terminology debate at the time. However, even as he says later, his "response" to this is sarcastic, and not at all what I meant by a response. I was reffering to a post in which someone makes a non-joking reamrk or opinion or asks a question or something non-RVS. I no more consider that a post worth considering as a response than this one by Rhand. This combined with my interpretation of the wording "So what's the story with this post" is what made me originally think that post was opportunistic and aggressive. I have since then accepted your explanation, that you wanted to get it moving, even though that explanation has a flaw with it.
Ignoring my original response and calling my "**** or get off the pot" post opportunistic are both only correct in you revisionist view of what actually happened. I still believe that this stems from a misunderstanding.
Iso didn't do that. He questioned why you were attacking him for something that he provably does so often (post a ton).
I would call that taking the bait. He broke RVS, he voted me, the entire rest of the game evolved from that point. Sure, it wasn't technically the same as what happened in Basic #66 if that's your interpretation of his actions, but it still accomplished the goal: ending RVS and getting reactions.
If someone posts something that is demonstrably false, I would expect them to question you and then follow it up with a vote after you didn't back down and continued to misrep the situation. There is nothing scummy about that, especially when the information is directly aimed at you. Iso's response and my response were both well within the lines of reason.
Calling you out on your BS is different than taking the bait. Since it was him you were attacking, I would totally expect him to respond especially when what you said about him was demonstrably false. That's a completely Townie response to what you did. Trying to paint it otherwise is a mischaracterization of Iso's posts.
How have I tried to paint Iso in any way? Actually, I think I see where this misunderstanding is: "Taking the bait" is not reffering to catching scum, merely elliciting a non-RVS reaction. I have never said that Iso is scum for his action, or anything even remotly close to that.
You said that "Iso took the bait". I say that he didn't; it's more that Iso was the bait. I think this stems from our different viewpoints about what constitutes a scummy reaction to your gambit.
I also find it interesting that you didn't see Iso's response as the most scummy reaction to your post. Or Wessel's.
If it gets the game moving, which it did, then it acomplished my goal.
If you are a Townie, then acting scummy in an attempt to get the game moving is the absolutely wrong way to do it. It's a total WIFOM sandwhich to think otherwise.
And your gambit was actually grinding the game to a halt. We only had like 6 active posters, and almost all of them were waiting on you to repspond. If anything, it was my post telling you to get on with it that actuall ygot the game moving again.
I'm not certain what you are trying to prove here. IT WORKED. People left RVS.Furthermore, I did it in such a way as to try and prevent as much as the WIFOM as possible. As anyone who was in KoTH will tell you, people didn't like Stardust's claim that it was all a gambit because it was his word against his previous word. In the same way people breadcrum to support a later claim, I breadcrumbed the intentional nature of it. Saying that it ground the game to a halt is laughable. Nothing was happening before it, and my post started it.
My point was this; we had 6 active posters at the time (Iso, Wessel, Msiting, FO, Rhand, and Tom) and 3 of them had pretty much stated that they were waiting for you (Tom, Iso, and Wessel). So if we have little activity, 6 lurkers, and 3 people waiting on you the game looks pretty stalled to me. I wanted you to answer Wessel so we could get on with the game.
In a large dose of irony, I thought you would come out of this with an attack on either Iso or Wessel. If anyone remotely acted scummy towards your gambit, its those two. I think you are blinding yourself by my use of the phrase "what the ****", as you (and pretty much everyone else) keeps saying that I'm so agressive.... this is why I hate miscahracterizations and misreps, because now every player in the game has accepted this as some sort of universal truth when in fact it was at most a poor choice of words.
Quote from Misting »
Furthermore, you act as if I was intentionally avoiding responding to it once it became repetative, and we were waiting for days for me to post. Yes, I did not respond to Iso and reveal right away. Yes, I waited for more people to get in on it. It was 24 hours from my previous post to the reveal. During that time, Wessel questioned me, Iso questioned Wessel, you questioned me (saying everything was stalled), then Tom questioned and voted Iso, then I posted. I did not have an opportunity to post the reveal until then, and even after you said things were ground to a halt, Tom still brought up a new topic which is still being discussed. So, no, the game was not stalled in any meaningful way, and saying that my gambit slowed down the game forgets that there was no game before my gambit. However, I don't hold these timing arguments against you because I know most people don't check timestamps regullarly. Just drop this line.
It wasn't ground to a halt time-wise, it was ground to a halt topic-wise. If you don't want to count three people waiting for you to explain what you are doing as such, then that's fine. I still think that what I said is still valid.
It was a statement of fact to help calrify to you where I'm coming from. In most Mafia circles I used to run in, you would have a lot more people reacting to it like I am. I understand that you know nothing about me or what I know about Mafia, so I was trying to give you a bit of context.
On thta note, trying to turn that into me "cowing the town" is exactly what I mean when I say that you are overexagerating or mischaracterizing things I've said in an attempt to make me look scummy.
You are correct in that I am not aware of who you used to play with, and perhaps they would have reacted like you do. When I read your original statement, my thought was equating it with, "everyone is doing it, so should you". A peer pressure argument. However, you have (now) explained what you meant by it, and I am perfectly happy to accept that and let the point drop. The thing I want you to understand about me then, is that if I don't see the town motivation, but do see the scum one, then I will call it out. By doing so I challenge you to provide the town explanation or refute the scum one. With your most recent comment, you have done so.
And I saw it as you intentionally misconstruing what I said. I don't understand the leap of logic that you made, but I am prepared to accept that it is the product of us misundestanding one another.
So anybody who is not asking questions is scum? Not only is this total WIFOM, its actually false. And again, you were trying to twist what I said into something that it isn't. THAT is scummy.
In this post you said you were completly, 100% sure I was scum. You said you knew what you needed to know. That is not scum hunting. You build cases, you ask questions, which you had not done. You just said "everything he has said is wrong" without backing it up. You said it's "demonstrably false" without demonstrating. That is what I take issue with, because I know that town make mistakes, and that is why you never stop asking them questions until they are unable to respond, either by being caught firmly, and then lynched, or by being lynched because enough people find their defense contrived or inadequate. It's not scumhunting to say, "I know they are scum, and that's that."
It is "scumhunting" to say that I have caught someone in an attack of dubious nature. I expect other people to be able to read the thread and figure out that what you are saying is false.
And casebuilding is NOT an expressly townie trait. Perhaps I'm a little out of touch with the MTG:Salvation Mafia culture, but in my experience people who build cases on others are just as likely Mafia as they are Town. This is especially true on Day 1. How you tell scum from town when they build a case against someone is by putting yourselves in their shoes and looking at what they provide as "evidence". If I think they are intentionally misrepping things or trying to lable things as "scummy" when they really aren't, I take note of that. When it happens more and more, I vote. This is why I voted for you, and why I "doubled down" on it when you kept saying things that were untrue.
That is NOT why I voted for you. I didn't really care about your gambit, but I absolutely care about what you are attempting to pass off as facts surrounding the responses to it. Townies can run gambits, but only scum do so and blow things out of proportion to the response. That is why I am voting for you.
You never mentioned mischaracterization at the time of your vote. Here. I'm not saying that's why you are voting me now, even as I have changed from my original reason. Your comment right before the vote dealt with the gambit itself, correct? In fact, that particular statement makes little sense to me. "What did you expect people to do, just ignore you?". I thought you already knew what I was trying to do.
I believe I was referring to your statement about how you said "people took the bait". But again, taking the bait is more than just responding to you... its responding to you in a scummy or opportunistic manner. I dind't think any of the responses to what you were doing were in any way indicative of being scummy.
What you say is true only in your revisionist view of the history of this thread.
See above. Would you really count that particular post of yours as a response, an actual response, to mine?
Why wouldn't it be? I'm actually wondering why you think my "**** or get off the post post" was a response... it was more of me telling you to respond to Wessel. I made no reference to the content of your post at all....
Is it a statment that needed to be made? Do you understand why I might take issue with that statement?
I was having some serious issues with some of Iso's posts, and I did not like the fact that he was taking every oppotunity to slam me an lable me as scum whenever he had the chance (as a corrollary to this, I don't like the way that Wessel has taken every oppotunity to call Iso "Townie-Iso" either). I think its most definitely a statement that needs to be made because all of thise casually dropped labels add up over time. My thought is that if he is Town, then not oly should he not be doing that but I would be extremely disappointed that someone of his supposed Mafia experience would come to that conclusion. I have since reevaulate dthings and come to the conclusion that there is no way that Iso doing what he is doing from a Town mindset.
Lol... I get it now. tl;dr ws referring to MY post (Post 144), as in to say "if my above five sentences were too long and you didn't read them, let me sum up by saying that you are not as clever as you think you are...".
Anyway, I'm still not sure how my posts don't make sense from your point of view. Your little gambit didn't work at all. the only way you can maintain that "it worked" is by doing exactly what you are doing; exaggeratting and mischaracterizing the responses.
Okay, as I said earlier, terminology confusion. Fine. I think we have another misunderstanding here. In your own words, what do you think the intent of my gambit was? What was it's goal, what would have made it "work"?
I think people who run gambits are trying to do three things. 1) Look Townie, 2) Stir the pot a little in order to move Day 1 along, and 3) Try and see what kind of reactions they get.
#1 is why I don't necessarily trust people who run gambits. I especially didn't like it that you basically said "I am doing what this Townie did in this other game" with the inference that you were obviously Town for doing so.
#2 is always a challenge with any Day 1, as there is so little going on that people are either afraid of saying anything for fear of being jumped on or they go on the offensive and start nitpicking stuff. There are some typical conversations that happen (mass claim discussion, setup speculation, 'No Lynch' discussions, etc.) but at some point and time people get into it over something and it generates discussion (often times, with the original point being lost). A gambit shortcuts that a little bit.
#3 is basically what people are looking at whenever they say something, gambit or not. But you have to remember that anyone who is paying attention is looking for things to comment about, so its not just about commenting.
How would it have "worked"? If you got an actual vote from someone other than Iso (other than him because he was the "bait" so to speak) with a reason somewhere along the lines of "outing power roles" or "RVS lurking does not equal obv scum".
Accusing you of what??? I just wanted you to **** or get off the pot.
...Of being scum? But this point is no longer relevant, see what I said about timing earlier.
You need to reread that post. At that point I never said anything about you being scum. This was part of my point about you misrepping what I said and how I reacted.
@Tom: I refuse to engage you further. I have illustrated what I mean quite succinctly and talking to you anymore makes me want to type in all caps and swear a lot. I will be voting you come Day 2.
This shows me that you don't listen.
I'm not going to listen to an explanation that explains nothing.
Quote from Forgotten One »
Quote from Iso »
@FO: Cool, thanks for volunteering. Unvote, Vote FO
And this shows me that you are playing deaf.
What would the comedic value of me saying, "Huh?" at this point be?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Tom - Not much to say that hasn't been said already, I really don't feel confidant calling him scum, but I've little reason to think he's town
iso - he's been active, scum hunts, that said, he and tom seem like the most able to pull of being town while scum. Unlike Tom, I don't feel confidant calling him town, but I don't think he's scum.
There are a couple minor things which got overlooked (by everyone), which I will now bring back up. Tom, can you please explain why Rhands original vote on you (which you said you ddin't like and were called a mudslinger for) was bad?
His vote was loosely attached to the rest of his post. He doesn't vote for any clear reason, and all in all it looks like a bad excuse to hop on the wagon.
Also, from the time you said "I have scum vibes coming from a few people" (before the argument) to I have no scum" reads, what changed.
Nothing. I always had the scum vibes, particularly from PG. I still do.
However, I don't have a scum read on PG, as can be seen by my T/S list. I call "having a read" being pretty sure about the player you have a read on. I'm not at all sure about PG. I am just getting vibes.
IB's case is complete nonsense. All of those have been addressed before in some form or another. His voting reasons, PG, FO, LMNOP, and this "deflection".
I haven't looked at it yet, as I plan to address it all at once, but yeah I had a feeling that IB's "case" was going to be pretty funny.
@FO: It STILL feels like you and Misting are arguing over DIFFERENT posts. Comments about players' towniness doesn't sound like scumhunting to me. And your comment on Wessel and Iso feels more like a chainsaw defense... But that may just show you how much I know about analyzing players for mafia... Which isn't a whole lot
@People getting scum vibes from me: Um... build a case?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Flavorless late night vote count:
Forgotten One (3): Wessel, Iso, pikachugundam
Iso (2): Forgotten One, Tom
Tom (2): EtR, Rhand
pikachugundam (1): infectiousbaloth
Not voting: Lord_McDonalds, AtheistGod, Misting, Prophylaxis
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I'll give you something to do PG; please explain why you feel that I am "flailing". I don't believe that I am.
How likely do you think it is that Iso is scum? And why?
Are there any answers in particular? Maybe I can get you to like them more.
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In KoTH Mafia, didn't somewhat the same thing happen when you were casing Stardust and people thought you were scummy for it? Reading you here feels similar to reading you there. And there I had labelled you flailing town too... I guess people tunnel on you because they feel that your play is scummy?
As for Iso, he is delivering a town performance, and so far I have not seen anything overtly scummy. Because it's Iso though, I'm afraid we'll need to see some bodies first before a definite read can be made.
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Goodness, a lot of your statements are ending in question marks recently.
I still don't know why you think I'm flailing town. Just because I'm town and people think I'm scum doesn't make me "flailing", as far as my knowledge of the word goes.
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{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I did bring up how a mass name claim can reveal PR's and not scum. (#77)
Wanting to show that you're town sounds like something only scum wants to do. If you're town, you would worry about catching scum instead.
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As for PR's: read the description of Ponder Stibbons. Again, literally from the wiki: "Ponder Stibbons fulfills the role of the one person in the organisation who knows what's going on". Easy NK target, and that's just from the Wiki.
If any of the scum members actually read the books, a name claim can give away all the info they need.
I know you like to call lazyness in your defense, but if you want to point to a wiki as proof that a mass claim can't harm town, you should start by really reading that wiki.
A big FoS to you.
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2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Next, I'm going to Unvote. I actually believe that Misting's actions and mischaracterizations just stem from him misunderstanding my responses rather than a malicious misrep.
Next, I'm going to Vote: Iso. He pushed a wagon against Tom by basically berating him for pretty much no reason and I totally get why Tom was frustrated with both Wessel and Iso; they don't listen and they misconstrue things in the worst possible way. Anyway, Iso also voted me with a "Well they both can't be Town" remark, which to me I read as an attempt at a Mafia 2 for 1 (encourage 2 Twonies arguing with each other, lynch one and when he turns up Town you can lynch the other).
Don't let Iso's volume of posts fool you. Don't let Wessel's proclamation that this is "Townie-Iso" fool you. Those two are scum.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
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Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Your points against Tom were basically nitpicking, then getting frustrated with him when you didn't give you the answer you wanted. You keep referring to "your case" and "the points against you" as if it was some concrete thing that everyone can point to, when in fact it was Wessel's post that was the only case ever presented and he addressed it. You attack him for Ad Hom.... with Ad Hom attacks. You atttack his playstyle and his defense of his playstyle... while defending your own playstyle in the same manner.
Just because you keep saying the same thing over and over again doesn't make it any more true. You keep saying that Tom didn't address points against him when its obvious that he did.
The ONLY thing I didn't like about what Tom does is that he places a Vote even when he's not convinced that the other player is scum (which is what he did in Post 121). But after that was discussed and put to bed with your cryptic post of a :love:, I don't see you even bringing that up again. You only go on the attack once tom responds to Wessel's posts. That is scummy to me.
I can see where this would be true, but what I'm saying is that if you got a bandwagon going on me and got me lynched, when I flip Town you can turn the whole thing on Misting as a "Well FO flipped Town, so Misting must be scum".
I also think its a double false-dichotomy in that there was no guarantee that EITHER of us is Mafia from what went down. You should know better than anyone that Townies get into it with other townies all the time, especially on Day 1.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
That's not true in the slightest. I hammered point after point against Tom in my questioning of him. If Tom can't give me an answer with sufficient townie rationale behind it, then I see it as scummy, and I expect everyone should pursue who they think is scum for whatever reason they deem fit.
I didn't say "Tom didn't respond", I said "Tom didn't respond adequately". Is there a reason you're choosing to ignore this obviously important difference?
Why is that [my action] scummy to you? I was content to push your wagon because you are one of the three people I think are most likely to be scum, but when the momentum shifted to Tom, of course I jumped to his wagon, as I also think Tom is scum! What's the point in continuing my push if it's going to be for naught at that point? Besides, you were still resolving your "misunderstanding" with Misting and I was fine to watch that play out while Wessel and I pressured Tom.
Yes, but I'm willing to hedge my bets, given that you're pretty obviously scum at this point.
I never said anything implying otherwise. What's your point? You're acting like I don't know this.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
Are you offering yourself to be lynched?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I think you're giving WAY too much weight on flavor. Just because the flavor indicates that someone might be cop or doc or vig doesn't necessarily make them that. Games are suppose to be made so that such flavor gaming does not happen.
Also, Ponder Stibbons knowing what goes on all around the university doesn't make him an instant PR... Is it possible? Yes, but may not be the case. For all we know RL didn't even choose him as one of the characters to be played.
Anyway, even after reading that wiki I don't really feel like a mass name claim because I don't think that'd get us anywhere... The point I'm trying to get across is that you should not think it's a scum indicator that people are proposing a mass name claim.
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LMNOP has requested replacement.
Please just link me to the specific answers I gave that you don't like. It makes a heck of a lot more sense for you to do that than me to re-read the thread yet again and have to guess at which answers you don't like.
I'm pretty sure that town who are on the verge of being lynched ARE generally concerned with showing everybody how they are in fact town.
I need it.
Unvote, vote: Iso
I'm fed up with Iso this game. He has continued to push the wagon on me beyond all logic. When I've asked where all the points on me are (that he claims exist) he refuses to find them and says "go find them yourself. read my posts." I've done that, and still can't find them. Neither can several other players this game.
I've acknowledged a couple of recent things he's pointed out, but I've also proved them wrong. Except for the fact that I don't have any scum reads, which is, to my knowledge, the only case left against me (and needless to say, not a very good one).
Maybe you then could find the good reasons Iso brings up against me (that I haven't proved wrong). I sure as hell can't.
Yay even more people with sense in them! I temporarily thought that race of people were gone from this Earth
I don't see Wessel as scum, but I think I agree about Iso. I have been unwilling to vote him until now because his early game play felt really townish to me, but after all this BS I'm having a hard time believing that he's town.
---
With the recent goings-on, I can now offer a T/S list:
Iso
Rhand
IB
EtR
PG
LMNOP (who is getting replaced)
LordMD (who isn't playing)
AG
Wessel
Misting
Forgotten One
Tom
I preemptively claimed hoping to avoid being lynched (and to avoid you guys lynching Tom for no good reason), but I'm also not naive enough to think that its going to make a lot of difference here. I just want everyone to know that if you lynch me that they should know exactly what I think about this mess and how you have orchestrated it.
To be honest, here is my biggest problem. I have scum reads on pretty much everyone in this game EXCEPT Tom right now. This game is absolutely driving me nuts because of all the total BS that is being passed off as "logic" and "evidence". It's like a bad Twilight Zone episode... But we obviously don't have 7+ Mafiosos in this game, so I've got to start paring back what's being said that's just misguided or misunderstood versus what I think is being done delibrerate and is misguiding. From my point of view from where I am standing, that leads me right to you.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
@FO: Cool, thanks for volunteering. Unvote, Vote FO
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Why though? What makes me flailing town vs. flailing scum? From what you've said it seems like you think I'm town just because of meta. Is that true?
What do you think about the points against me, if you can find any?
Right, I'm sure you've illustrated what you mean quite succinctly. That's precisely why 3 other players besides myself have no goddamn clue what your case on me is.
Your insistence that you have a case on me while refusing time and time again to provide examples of it just doesn't fly. I want you dead.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Signature done by perv90210
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Iso is Batman | Tamiyo lulz
Official Anime Enthusiast of [TheCrafters].
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Also with that reread, I don't think FO is town. (or if he is, he's not doing a very good job of it) Vote: Forgotten One
And here's some more of me being useless again...
Unofficial Vote count:
Forgotten One (4): Misting, Wessel, Iso, PikachuGundam
Iso (2): Forgotten One, Tom
Tom (3): IB, EtR, Rhand
Not Voting: LMNOP, AG, Golden Arches
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Iso is Batman | Tamiyo lulz
Official Anime Enthusiast of [TheCrafters].
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Looking into other players needing prods now.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
In spite of RVS being over, Tom carries on the custard nonsense. This becomes more relevant shortly.
Hypocrisy toward PG for the custard thing, which TOM IS ALREADY VOTING ISO OVER. Then for Iso's "weak answer", tom puts an awful real vote on Iso.
Never called you scum, does not compute with voting you for a weak answer.
So, in spite of compelling questions toward other players, votes FO for ":smiledown: posts". Yeah, okay.
If you're voting Iso for custard, and you give PG crap about custard, and make custard jokes, you're attempting to prolong the dead RVS.
Deflection in part 1, backpedaling on FO, votes LMNOP after several people express suspicions of him. No thank you, Tom.
This shows me that you don't listen.
And this shows me that you are playing deaf.
@PikachuGundam: Out of curiosity, why do you think I am not Town? Even if its that you agree with someone else's argument, I'd like to hear how you came to your conclusion. I don't need a huge PBPA, just a brief statement. I want you on record for your vote.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
It's gonna take me a bit to get through everything as I want to, and will make a case/go in depth with my T/S list
(borrowing/stealing Tom's template), I've little theory/meta to go off of other than the couple of games I've read,
Forgotten One - The whole game I've thought this guy was scum, his last couple of posts helped, but everytime I reread his posts I go right back to thinking he's scum, his posting is aggressive, he's very assured that Misting was scum, and for little reason other than "Kpaca"
Tom - Not much to say that hasn't been said already, I really don't feel confidant calling him scum, but I've little reason to think he's town
Pikachugundam - He, like I, hasn't posted much.
Wessel - Need to actually examine his posts a bit more.
iso - he's been active, scum hunts, that said, he and tom seem like the most able to pull of being town while scum. Unlike Tom, I don't feel confidant calling him town, but I don't think he's scum.
InfectiousBaloth: His vote against Pikachugundam stuck out like a sore thumb to me, I believe he has sense explained it (the last two pages are kind of a blur as of writing, I have school in an hour and wanted to post something before I get replaced.), but it irked me that it took him so long to do so
Misting - Need to reread his posts, but nothing really grabs me, his replies to FO I felt were acceptable.
EtR/Rhand: Oh yeah, they're in this game
(@Misting: I meant to post this...a long time ago, but yeah, I didn't catch your gambit post being DJ's with the names changed, notably I was on the lurking scum team in his I think, although it did look familiar.)
Will go in depth with my reads a bit further later today or tomorrow.
I assume this list is ordered in Most scummy to least scummy. If that's the case you have the 4 people that voted you as most scummy. I find that strange.
I also consider it strange that you stated you had not formed a read on Iso but now you have him as top of your scum list.
Apology accepted.
What changed between this post and your T/S list?
Unvote. I don't see this being an attack from a scum. Or, rather, I think this shows actual thought and consideration of the two arguing parties.
to be clear, though, I still want answers to my questions of you, FO.
Anyway, you can add me to he list of people not seeing the attack on Tom. I've been through the entire argument taking notes on the various points made against him, and marked them off once he explained. I also disagree with a few of the points being scumtells anyway (such as the new-mass claim suggestion and his questioning of a supposedly "obvtown" Iso). There are a couple minor things which got overlooked (by everyone), which I will now bring back up. Tom, can you please explain why Rhands original vote on you (which you said you ddin't like and were called a mudslinger for) was bad? Also, from the time you said "I have scum vibes coming from a few people" (before the argument) to I have no scum" reads, what changed.
IB's case is complete nonsense. All of those have been addressed before in some form or another. His voting reasons, PG, FO, LMNOP, and this "deflection".
@Wessel: Are people who you consider to be strongly town, though not confirmed in some way, not subject to questioning? I ask because of you earlier statement "in conjunction with Iso being fairly obvtown".
I don't know who my vote should be on yet. I've got some bad vibes from Rhand which I need to look into, and I just don't know about Iso. On another note, LMcD exists!
----------------------------------------
Hey, Proph!
:embarass: I forgot, although given he's replacing out and he's on par with me and pikachugundam in terms of content/posts, does it matter
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Nothing about the interaction between Misting and I came accross as scumhunting? None of my comments about Wessel? None of my recent comments on Tom being town? Nothing about my current vote on Iso?
Perhaps your view of what constitutes "scumhunting" needs some reevaluation. In my experience, scumhunting comes in very different forms. Just because I'm not posting in the same volume as Iso doesn't mean I'm not hunting scum. Conversely, Just because Iso has 3 times the number of posts of anyone else doesn't mean he's scumhunting either...
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
Okay.
Ignoring my original response and calling my "**** or get off the pot" post opportunistic are both only correct in you revisionist view of what actually happened. I still believe that this stems from a misunderstanding.
If someone posts something that is demonstrably false, I would expect them to question you and then follow it up with a vote after you didn't back down and continued to misrep the situation. There is nothing scummy about that, especially when the information is directly aimed at you. Iso's response and my response were both well within the lines of reason.
You said that "Iso took the bait". I say that he didn't; it's more that Iso was the bait. I think this stems from our different viewpoints about what constitutes a scummy reaction to your gambit.
I also find it interesting that you didn't see Iso's response as the most scummy reaction to your post. Or Wessel's.
My point was this; we had 6 active posters at the time (Iso, Wessel, Msiting, FO, Rhand, and Tom) and 3 of them had pretty much stated that they were waiting for you (Tom, Iso, and Wessel). So if we have little activity, 6 lurkers, and 3 people waiting on you the game looks pretty stalled to me. I wanted you to answer Wessel so we could get on with the game.
In a large dose of irony, I thought you would come out of this with an attack on either Iso or Wessel. If anyone remotely acted scummy towards your gambit, its those two. I think you are blinding yourself by my use of the phrase "what the ****", as you (and pretty much everyone else) keeps saying that I'm so agressive.... this is why I hate miscahracterizations and misreps, because now every player in the game has accepted this as some sort of universal truth when in fact it was at most a poor choice of words.
It wasn't ground to a halt time-wise, it was ground to a halt topic-wise. If you don't want to count three people waiting for you to explain what you are doing as such, then that's fine. I still think that what I said is still valid.
And I saw it as you intentionally misconstruing what I said. I don't understand the leap of logic that you made, but I am prepared to accept that it is the product of us misundestanding one another.
It is "scumhunting" to say that I have caught someone in an attack of dubious nature. I expect other people to be able to read the thread and figure out that what you are saying is false.
And casebuilding is NOT an expressly townie trait. Perhaps I'm a little out of touch with the MTG:Salvation Mafia culture, but in my experience people who build cases on others are just as likely Mafia as they are Town. This is especially true on Day 1. How you tell scum from town when they build a case against someone is by putting yourselves in their shoes and looking at what they provide as "evidence". If I think they are intentionally misrepping things or trying to lable things as "scummy" when they really aren't, I take note of that. When it happens more and more, I vote. This is why I voted for you, and why I "doubled down" on it when you kept saying things that were untrue.
I believe I was referring to your statement about how you said "people took the bait". But again, taking the bait is more than just responding to you... its responding to you in a scummy or opportunistic manner. I dind't think any of the responses to what you were doing were in any way indicative of being scummy.
Why wouldn't it be? I'm actually wondering why you think my "**** or get off the post post" was a response... it was more of me telling you to respond to Wessel. I made no reference to the content of your post at all....
I was having some serious issues with some of Iso's posts, and I did not like the fact that he was taking every oppotunity to slam me an lable me as scum whenever he had the chance (as a corrollary to this, I don't like the way that Wessel has taken every oppotunity to call Iso "Townie-Iso" either). I think its most definitely a statement that needs to be made because all of thise casually dropped labels add up over time. My thought is that if he is Town, then not oly should he not be doing that but I would be extremely disappointed that someone of his supposed Mafia experience would come to that conclusion. I have since reevaulate dthings and come to the conclusion that there is no way that Iso doing what he is doing from a Town mindset.
I think people who run gambits are trying to do three things. 1) Look Townie, 2) Stir the pot a little in order to move Day 1 along, and 3) Try and see what kind of reactions they get.
#1 is why I don't necessarily trust people who run gambits. I especially didn't like it that you basically said "I am doing what this Townie did in this other game" with the inference that you were obviously Town for doing so.
#2 is always a challenge with any Day 1, as there is so little going on that people are either afraid of saying anything for fear of being jumped on or they go on the offensive and start nitpicking stuff. There are some typical conversations that happen (mass claim discussion, setup speculation, 'No Lynch' discussions, etc.) but at some point and time people get into it over something and it generates discussion (often times, with the original point being lost). A gambit shortcuts that a little bit.
#3 is basically what people are looking at whenever they say something, gambit or not. But you have to remember that anyone who is paying attention is looking for things to comment about, so its not just about commenting.
How would it have "worked"? If you got an actual vote from someone other than Iso (other than him because he was the "bait" so to speak) with a reason somewhere along the lines of "outing power roles" or "RVS lurking does not equal obv scum".
You need to reread that post. At that point I never said anything about you being scum. This was part of my point about you misrepping what I said and how I reacted.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
I'm not going to listen to an explanation that explains nothing.
What would the comedic value of me saying, "Huh?" at this point be?
Do you think I'm not scumhunting?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
--
Ugg, PG is living on the fence.
--
Hi there!
Relevant parts bolded.
You got some 'splainin' to do.
His vote was loosely attached to the rest of his post. He doesn't vote for any clear reason, and all in all it looks like a bad excuse to hop on the wagon.
Nothing. I always had the scum vibes, particularly from PG. I still do.
However, I don't have a scum read on PG, as can be seen by my T/S list. I call "having a read" being pretty sure about the player you have a read on. I'm not at all sure about PG. I am just getting vibes.
I haven't looked at it yet, as I plan to address it all at once, but yeah I had a feeling that IB's "case" was going to be pretty funny.
@People getting scum vibes from me: Um... build a case?
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(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Forgotten One (3): Wessel, Iso, pikachugundam
Iso (2): Forgotten One, Tom
Tom (2): EtR, Rhand
pikachugundam (1): infectiousbaloth
Not voting: Lord_McDonalds, AtheistGod, Misting, Prophylaxis