I think this is the right move, and I sound so indecisive on Shalako because I am. It's not so clear cut as some are trying to make it sound. I held off voting simply because it's been a while since I read the thread and I wanted to make sure I had conviction in doing this.
vote Shalako
"I think this is the right move" and "I sound so indecisive" don't really mix well.
You know what would be horrible. Lynching PF and geting a town reveal on him when you could get a reveal for us tonight. If he's town we did a huge favor for the scum. If he's scum he lived through one night.
The part where AE directed the cop to the godfather? Yeah, I'm still not over that.
I come in and set up the L-1, to see what happens and wham the quick lynch.
No warning, no admonishment for me making him the hammer vote, just the vote.
Vote: E_P
"Traps" usually set my alarm bells ringing. I already called you on the whole "vote me" trap, which you inaccurately attributed to your town game when in reality you were an SK the last time you did it, and this one sounds just as bad. It sounds like a way to absolve responsibility for putting Shalako at L-1. I mean, someone was going to have to hammer him. Time was running out, he was stalling and stonewalling, and the game needed to move forward.
I really don't have anything to explain, and I'm not sure how people are so pissed. Shalako lied, completely gave up after coming under pressure from lying, and I decided to vote after waffling on it. I waffled on it because I've (very obviously) been absent from the game for a while and didn't want to vote right then. When was the appropriate time to hammer? 2 days? a week?
I can't even attempt to defend my position because there's nothing to defend, I mean let's look at the attacks:12 hours later.
OK? I said Shalako was scummy but didn't want to vote him after not being in the thread for a while, and then once I read more I voted. What's the problem?
Where on Earth are you pulling this from? My post did not have more good to say about Shalako than not, I explained why I didn't vote, and I had a clear intention to vote. This post has no bearing in reality, and this is now the second or third gambit from inifnis.
Why? What about it?
Seeming that I said Shalako was scum int hat post, it's not a fence sit.
Your gambit fails in its conception, and it's easy to prove how.
No warning is a lie, I made my intention to vote clear.
So?
What? What things you mentioned?
This is such an infuriating bull**** vote that I'm shaking.
"Infinis may have posted some bull**** gambit explaination, but since he posted EP is scum." Good logic.
For those not wanting the read, there's been almost no mention of content whatsoever. I provided the analysis and drew a conclusion from analysis. Instead of discussing my analysis, people are reacting to me voting. This is actually worse play than the idiots in MH's mini that started pushing me just because I hammered, because I provided all my opinions in the thread quite clearly. There was no fence sitting, there was only a delay to vote.
-----
What are you mad about?
You are ****ing kidding me. This is what you're going with now? You spent Day 1 attacking anyone and everyone pretty much solely based on keeping their role close to their chest or not.
No he wasn't, he was calling shal scum for the last half of the day.
To what end? There's really nothing to gain from outing our roles with no cop and a roleblocker around.
@Toast: did you receive notification you were blocked?
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Let me get back to inifinis. His gambit was pure opportunism. He set up a "gambit" in the name of making anyone who hammered Shalako look bad, and since I said I thought Shalako was scum it's clear who his target was. Besides, there's plenty of evidence his gambit was not to catch scum, but to set up a vote on me:
Not only had I called Shalako scum, but I called shalako scum while no voting anyone else. That means there is only one place my vote is probably going to go. It doesn't take any thought to actually see that. And since inifinis is actually squatting on this logic while misrepresenting the facts he clearly had this in mind.
vote infinis
I'm pretty sold by this. I've been calling Infinis/AE since yesterday (before Shalako's fake daykill episode.)
If this is scum speaking, I'm done. When was it appropriate to hammer really? How about after a clear warning you are going to a hammer? How about a post "Last Warning Shalako, say something or I'm hammering" or how about "Can I get a confirmation from the mod of the votecount"
You're acting like you didn't give him to the opportunity to do this. If you didn't like how he was heading toward hammering Shalako, then why on earth would you vote Shalako in 962 after E_P had signalled his intent to vote him in 959?
Anything would have been better than that hammer. He waited 10 posts and less than 24 hours to hammer! I can't help but quote the Simpsons "I was elected to lead, not to read".
You made it possible! Scum love being the L-1 vote and hate being the hammerer for precisely this reason.
Your excuses about "Shalako isn't town but I'm going to put him at L-1", hoping to catch a scum hammering a townie, might make sense except for a couple of reasons.
1. E_P declared his intent to vote Shalako. At that point, if you thought he was scum, why vote Shalako instead of E_P?
2. Let me guess. It was a deadline and too late to make a case on E_P. OK. So if that's the case, and it was, because the game's rules state a deadline ending the day will result in No Lynch, how can you blame E_P for hammering Shalako and moving the game along? How much longer was he supposed to wait?
...But all the same, I'm getting that sinking feeling about Infinis being town. He just seems too...weird to be scum. I'd still prefer to go with AE today.
...
Your excuses about "Shalako isn't town but I'm going to put him at L-1", hoping to catch a scum hammering a townie, might make sense except for a couple of reasons.
1. E_P declared his intent to vote Shalako. At that point, if you thought he was scum, why vote Shalako instead of E_P?
2. Let me guess. It was a deadline and too late to make a case on E_P. OK. So if that's the case, and it was, because the game's rules state a deadline ending the day will result in No Lynch, how can you blame E_P for hammering Shalako and moving the game along? How much longer was he supposed to wait?
...But all the same, I'm getting that sinking feeling about Infinis being town. He just seems too...weird to be scum. I'd still prefer to go with AE today.
1. I thought he was scummy for waffling, but not scum. At that point in the game it was You (Zind) and no clue who else as scum to me. Shalako plays like a petulant child, (No offense meant) but he's gung ho when he gets a power role and then gets pissy and doesn't cooperate when things arent going his way. It was clear that this was his town game. I needed leads and momentum would have been hard to derail. So therefore, I wanted to see who would hammer.
I think this is the right move, and I sound so indecisive on Shalako because I am. It's not so clear cut as some are trying to make it sound. I held off voting simply because it's been a while since I read the thread and I wanted to make sure I had conviction in doing this.
vote Shalako
3-27-12 Hammer
My argument is why not wait a day? or two? There was more than a week left.
Why not give a simple warning, "I'm hammering... last words shalako?"
Why not say "you suck Infinis for making me hammer, but here it is"?
With more than a week to go he could have waited. He made his intention to vote clear, but he did not allow for enough time to see anything else play out.
Why didn't he vote at L-2 and then turn around in less than 24 hours and slam home the hammer?
@A_E you're hinting at information, ergo a target for scum. I'm honestly surprised the hammer hasn't gone through since you revealed you have info. So we're waiting on what for you to reveal the info? Just asking for clarity not attacking.
I'm amused that [Shalako], of all people, are talking about terrible reasoning. "Hey, PF's RVS daykill must be serious, therefore I should shoot him to prove that I have a daykill!"
...Are you serious?
Because one line of cop-directing isn't enough evidence. Is that all you have?
...
No, that makes a ton of sense. I feel like an idiot for not reading zindabad's usual "I'm going to scumhunt AE" posts as serious because of their history.
Unvote; Vote Archmage
Infinis is as Infinis does, guys. I'd say the scum are on this stalled town wagon. zinda's got a point. Lets lynch AE.
Infinis does not read like when I've played with his as scum. He sounds quite a bit like he does when he's town. We've played in what, 4 games? Or is it 5?
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I do NOT support an A_E lynch, like, ever, Zindabad. I cannot believe you would rather go with him over E_P or Infinis. Why are you still tunnelling liek this?
A_E has clearly, just like SHALAKO (but with a good deal more common sense and logic to his arguments) demonstrated a clearly townie mindset in the questions he is asking, and the responses he has given. He obviously has a somewhat scarred past with you (just like Cyan and I - we never agree on anything) but, um, get over it.
Infinis is as Infinis does, guys. I'd say the scum are on this stalled town wagon. zinda's got a point. Lets lynch AE.
Infinis does not read like when I've played with his as scum. He sounds quite a bit like he does when he's town. We've played in what, 4 games? Or is it 5?
Key problem with this thought: you are you and pinkfloyd is an 18 yr old partier who's more concerned with dipping his wick than winning at Mafia (sorry pf).
Why are you calling this scummy? Would you say, as an expert on player reputations at this point, that pinkfloyd is known for his stellar town play?
Also, for reference, Zaj is lynchbait. He's famous for scummy town play including lurking and half-formed stances. This will likely doom him either way. I think we should let them both speak (Zaj and Wuffles).
No, that makes a ton of sense. I feel like an idiot for not reading zindabad's usual "I'm going to scumhunt AE" posts as serious because of their history.
Unvote; Vote Archmage
Infinis is as Infinis does, guys. I'd say the scum are on this stalled town wagon. zinda's got a point. Lets lynch AE.
Infinis does not read like when I've played with his as scum. He sounds quite a bit like he does when he's town. We've played in what, 4 games? Or is it 5?
I think at this time I want AE to tell us whatever it is he's been holding on to.
Artifice your lucky your cleared because you'd be lynched by now. Your all over the place.
I'm not going to reveal to much. My main issue was with the roleblock. I was thinking Wuffles was lying scum or theres another. I've been going back and fourth with the mod because I did not recieve any results for actions. Long story short, there is none. So now I'm unsure on Wuffles being scum or not. Or if something else happened to throw a wrench in there.
@Wuffles, did you get flavor for your actions?
@Archonoid. could you mimic a RB? Or would that override your action? Also did you get flavor on Artifice or just a "town" result?
I don't want others to come in saying if they got flavor of not and out them as having a role, as I'm also not ready for a massclaim.
Now onto that massclaim. Zindabad saying he's against it sends up red flags to me. As if you've played many games with him you'd know he's always willing to claim. Unless you can point me to some games that you were against it Zindabad.
Artifice your lucky your cleared because you'd be lynched by now. Your all over the place.
I'm not going to reveal to much. My main issue was with the roleblock. I was thinking Wuffles was lying scum or theres another. I've been going back and fourth with the mod because I did not recieve any results for actions. Long story short, there is none. So now I'm unsure on Wuffles being scum or not. Or if something else happened to throw a wrench in there.
@Wuffles, did you get flavor for your actions?
@Archonoid. could you mimic a RB? Or would that override your action? Also did you get flavor on Artifice or just a "town" result?
I don't want others to come in saying if they got flavor of not and out them as having a role, as I'm also not ready for a massclaim.
Now onto that massclaim. Zindabad saying he's against it sends up red flags to me. As if you've played many games with him you'd know he's always willing to claim. Unless you can point me to some games that you were against it Zindabad.
I'm sure we've been over this.
No, I did not get any flavor.
No, I am I not a scum team with Zindabad. Where the **** did that come from?
Thats the thing, I'm unsure. I was under the impression I was blocked but I don't have any confirmation on that. I can't pinpoint it to a certain thing happening. Toastboy has no indication he was blocked. I have no indication as to what might have happened.
@Wuffles, no flavor but did you get a succesful result on your action? Also are you certain that your action did indeed target Toastboy?
@Art, no I'm still pretty sure Wuff is town. I'm still pretty certain infinis is scum. I'm feeling Zindabad is the other scum with the way he is trying to push my lynch. I'm thinking he had a hand in the shenanigans over the night and would rather lynch me than deal with me at night. I think he thinks he is on to something.
I'm happy with lynching infinis and believe it is time. Him coming up scum would have me caring less about what happened last night and what would/could happened at night with one scum left.
Thats the thing, I'm unsure. I was under the impression I was blocked but I don't have any confirmation on that. I can't pinpoint it to a certain thing happening. Toastboy has no indication he was blocked. I have no indication as to what might have happened.
@Wuffles, no flavor but did you get a succesful result on your action? Also are you certain that your action did indeed target Toastboy?
@Art, no I'm still pretty sure Wuff is town. I'm still pretty certain infinis is scum. I'm feeling Zindabad is the other scum with the way he is trying to push my lynch. I'm thinking he had a hand in the shenanigans over the night and would rather lynch me than deal with me at night. I think he thinks he is on to something.
I'm happy with lynching infinis and believe it is time. Him coming up scum would have me caring less about what happened last night and what would/could happened at night with one scum left.
I didn't even get a result PM night 1, and nor did I on N2. I did however get a confirmation PM from Tanarin that my action had been recorded both nights.
I also want a massclaim as soon as possible. The scums, in my opinion, are in Zinda, Emo, Toast or Infinis. Tonight, they will kill one of the confirmed townies, and this will make things even murkier tomorrow.
I say that putting the information out here at this point locks the scums into false claims and either forces them NOT to hit cconfirmed townie (if a better power role turns up) or to allow powerful roles to survive.
It also allows, as has been said, for us to coordinate with Archonoid, which may be worth looking into.
No I didn't think of this. He either is the scum RBr and lied about his target. Or is a town RBr and there is a scum RBr. Or scum messed around at night. Which there being no flavor or results is impossible for us to figure out. Until we get death reveals.
Examples?
Tell you what, if he disputes this I will get examples. OK?
I didn't even get a result PM night 1, and nor did I on N2. I did however get a confirmation PM from Tanarin that my action had been recorded both nights.
OK so you don't know for sure that your RB targeted Toastboy. Are you willing to not use your ability tonight?
I have been open about that fact that, despite you being confirmed, you still give me pause for thought - if you weren't confirmed I'd be on you as an Infinis scumbuddy right now so hard. Slowly backing away before leaping on the next available wagon (AE), despite your qualms about Zindabad someone else noted is textbook.
...
See my comment above about you withdrawing from the E_PvInfinis mess that makes your job so much easier.
Why are you only considering this 'meta evidence' now?
Vote Toastboy
"Textbook" is a lame way of saying I'm scum, and undermining me as part of the town. Getting really tired of this.
I'm not only considering Infinis' behavior now. He does this all the time. I've learned that his "circling around the fishbowl" style is not scummy. He makes his intentions clear as scum. He's pretty readable in his motivations and maneuvers as scum.
Also, fun fact (to use your words) : I don't defend my scumbuddies. Look it up.
Before that post I had been in this thread once to post saying I got extremely busy at work. That means from when Shalako lied about his ability until my post about it I had read through the exchanges after a single time. It also means that when I read through the first few pages again it had been the first time in a month. I have never seen Shalako roll over like that, and I was doubtful he would play something out to the end and then roll over as town. His behavior reads as completely guilty of a failed scum gambit and not as a town one. Not only is it built on an entire lie, his immediate confirmation of pinkfloyd makes me think the entire thing was completely fake from the get-go. Still, I was not ready to completely turn around from accepting Shalako was confirmed town in a single post despite damning behavior. That would be completely stupid given my absence.
I voted when I did because I spent more time thinking about it, and I made sure I felt it was right. When I felt Shalako was scum, I voted. Me being the hammer is entirely moot. I can't even think of a single time a player has been caught as scum from hammering someone.
I'm still caught up about your self-professed indecisiveness about the hammer yesterday, and activeness decision in hindsight now, but your tone seems genuine, and all this makes sense from a town perspective.
Quote from Toastboy »
Quote from Emo_Pinata »
The scum are gambiting on reputations. Do not let this happen. They can't risk killing me because of my unknown ability. A lynch is risky but way better than trying the NK.
If anyone considers this genuine they need their head examined.
In addition to that, you're still trying to put suspicion on Arti?
...Are you serious?
Because one line of cop-directing isn't enough evidence. Is that all you have?
It doesn't send up gigantic "OMG THIS GUY IS SCUM" red flags to you? It's not just that AE directed the cop on D1, it's that he directed the cop to the #1 lynch pick and godfather Zajnet.
We could have lost the game right there if he had been successful. I don't think I've ever seen any town win after they have investigated the godfather as town. Add that to AE's "hear no evil" defense - posts like this, this and this, where he dodges me and downplays any pressure on him as just my "usual" attacks on him (bogus meta, in other words) and I'm pretty set on lynching him.
Also - and I wasn't really clear enough about this - when I asked "and?", I wanted to express my surprise that you describe both E_P and Infinis as scummy. I'd say E_P is pretty pro-town. I'd say Infinis is pretty scummy, but not necessarily scum, although he is my #2 pick at the moment.
No, that makes a ton of sense. I feel like an idiot for not reading zindabad's usual "I'm going to scumhunt AE" posts as serious because of their history.
Unvote; Vote Archmage
Infinis is as Infinis does, guys. I'd say the scum are on this stalled town wagon. zinda's got a point. Lets lynch AE.
Infinis does not read like when I've played with his as scum. He sounds quite a bit like he does when he's town. We've played in what, 4 games? Or is it 5?
All of this "history" stuff serves exactly two purposes:
1. Friendly ribbing between myself and AE
2. Convenient excuse for him to brush off any attacks I make on him at any time.
Has anyone ever heard me use the same excuse when AE attacks me?
I do NOT support an A_E lynch, like, ever, Zindabad. I cannot believe you would rather go with him over E_P or Infinis. Why are you still tunnelling liek this?
A_E has clearly, just like SHALAKO (but with a good deal more common sense and logic to his arguments) demonstrated a clearly townie mindset in the questions he is asking, and the responses he has given. He obviously has a somewhat scarred past with you (just like Cyan and I - we never agree on anything) but, um, get over it.
Another one falling for AE's smokescreen. There is no "scarred past." There's a series of jokes and friendly rivalry between us, and then there's an excuse that he can always call on to duck pressure.
"Tunnelling", too? That's a bit of a stretch. Do you have any quotes to justify your characterization of me as "tunneling" AE?
Now onto that massclaim. Zindabad saying he's against it sends up red flags to me. As if you've played many games with him you'd know he's always willing to claim. Unless you can point me to some games that you were against it Zindabad.
This is a major inaccuracy. I am always in favor of early softclaims (as can be seen in, for example, Sword of Truth Mafia.) I am never in favor of early massclaims, and I have argued against massclaims more times than I can count. Recent examples are Starcraft and NGE.
It is also an insidious accusation. When you state something about another player, it is on you to provide evidence, not to say "This is so, unless you can prove it isn't." That's what I did to you in Goo Mafia, as you never cease reminding me. You should be calling up examples of when I was in favor of massclaims (which you won't find), not trying to say I am in favor of them and ask me to show examples of where I'm not.
Then, when Toastboy asks you for examples, you say "let's wait and see if zindabad comes up with anything." Really? Some burden of proof.
@Art, no I'm still pretty sure Wuff is town. I'm still pretty certain infinis is scum. I'm feeling Zindabad is the other scum with the way he is trying to push my lynch. I'm thinking he had a hand in the shenanigans over the night and would rather lynch me than deal with me at night. I think he thinks he is on to something.
What are the "shenanigans over the night"? I'd like to hear more elucidation about this.
The second quote was actually said by Infinis, it was mis-attributed. My bad.
Hm. You're right. That isn't the smoking gun I thought it was. unvote.
However, we do need to get a lynch soon. I feel like we're losing focus. New information is needed. Given the most recent discussion, and looking back at his posts, I'm now actually OK with lynching AE. I dislike lynches without certainty, but at this stage in the game, I'm willing to go with someone who's scummy and will, in the worst case, still give us leads from his interactions.
Why the hell would I not use my ability? I could easily hit a nightkill.
Yes you could. I'm just wondering if the scum have abilities to screw with our abilities. Direct them somewhere else. Is there a reason for no flavor/confirmation? We don't know for sure if our abilities are going where they are intended to go.
This is a major inaccuracy. I am always in favor of early softclaims (as can be seen in, for example, Sword of Truth Mafia.) I am never in favor of early massclaims, and I have argued against massclaims more times than I can count. Recent examples are Starcraft and NGE.
Your right. Softclaims not massclaims, my mistake. I retract.
It is also an insidious accusation. When you state something about another player, it is on you to provide evidence, not to say "This is so, unless you can prove it isn't." That's what I did to you in Goo Mafia, as you never cease reminding me. You should be calling up examples of when I was in favor of massclaims (which you won't find), not trying to say I am in favor of them and ask me to show examples of where I'm not.
No, this is a simple fix. You come in and say 'yeah I'm always up for claims' or call bull**** and call me out on it. I then would show quotes. Thats what happened in Goo. You came in accusing and I demanded proof. When you had nothing thats when pressure started.
Then, when Toastboy asks you for examples, you say "let's wait and see if zindabad comes up with anything." Really? Some burden of proof.
What? If you disputed that I would have went looking. I knew there was no way you would as you are fine with claims. I was wrong thinking massclaims. It is softclaims.
What are the "shenanigans over the night"? I'd like to hear more elucidation about this.
Heres a loaded question. How would I know. But not knowing for a fact about where our abilities are going and what has happened with me leads me to believe something is up.
Can it be this easy? Are Wuffles and AE defending each other as scumbuddies? They're both dead set that the other is town, but I can't for the life of me remember why.
Yes you could. I'm just wondering if the scum have abilities to screw with our abilities. Direct them somewhere else. Is there a reason for no flavor/confirmation? We don't know for sure if our abilities are going where they are intended to go.
This is either feaermoggering or baseless speculation. Can you please elaborate on whqat in the heck you know
[quote]...what has happened with me...QUOTE]
What HAS happened with you?? Seriously, yo!
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Since it seems lost on some and others are ignoring, I want to make my point again.
I DID NOT MAKE ANYONE HAMMER. I baited the wagon of a obvious town member. I did set up someone for the fall, there was no way for me to know who would hammer.
E_P indicating he wanted to vote at L-2 is different than having the will to hammer. I can not control E_P. But I did force the next voter to be the hammer. E_P's vote was rash compared to his play up to that point. He had numerous options including doing nothing for a day or two. He chose hammer instead and hammer alone. I've enumerated the many options he had, he chose poorly. He is scummy at best and most likely scum.
I am town, I've set up traps and gambits. I do not mean to sound arrogant as so many of you read me. Far from it, I get frustrated that my POV is rarely accepted. This is a game, but I take it far too seriously.
Comparing my play to Grim Batol is false in only that my role changed as I found relics, I had hoped for another change.
Unvote
Zind, you are on my scum list, but your case on A_E is better than my gut.
Better than your case on A_E is this Romney-istic action by A_E
Don't like it. You say nothing in regard to looking back on Shalako but coming voting. Like Toastboy said. Condemning him to scum but not voting. Then swooping in for the hammer.
Great.
A_E nows who is scummier, but when the tide turns against me
I really dislike how infinis is hiding behind his vote. All premeditated in the way of who ever hammered he would condemn them. I just don't get pushing the wagon to L-1 thinking the player is town just to push the hammer vote the next day.
I do want people to stay active too. Getting down to crunch time, can't afford to have some lurking or not as active. Yeah I'm looking at you Zindabad and Toastboy. But no need to rush it. I'm looking at voting infinis but I'm not doing it so soon. Wait for everyone to at least post. Emo still has to get in here and talk about that hammer even though infinis is already brushing it aside.
Misrep, all I was doing was focusing on the hammer
Yes Emo did in fact post his intentions to place a vote down on Shalako. Not voting at that time looks genuine to me as to not push him to L-1 just yet. Infinis took that time to be opportunistic and set Emo up knowing Emo would be placing a vote down in due time.
Plus the fact that 'this guy is town I'm voting him' nonsense.
I'm amused that [Shalako], of all people, are talking about terrible reasoning. "Hey, PF's RVS daykill must be serious, therefore I should shoot him to prove that I have a daykill!"
What a surprise Infinis? Jump right on there. First theres 'this guy is town but I'm voting him' (D1). Now theres 'Zind your on my scum list but I'll go with AE'. Your so scum it hurts. I like how you use those quotes to get yourself on my wagon. They have been there the whole time but now you decide its an issue? You needed something to justify getting on my wagon.
Misrep, all I was doing was focusing on the hammer
No I didn't misrep. You set up Emo and claiming WIFOM before Emo had posted shows you had no intention of hearing him out. You set Emo up (or who ever else hammered) for the fall.
No, this is a simple fix. You come in and say 'yeah I'm always up for claims' or call bull**** and call me out on it. I then would show quotes. Thats what happened in Goo. You came in accusing and I demanded proof. When you had nothing thats when pressure started.
I really don't agree at all, but I guess that's an issue of style rather than something to do with this game.
Heres a loaded question. How would I know. But not knowing for a fact about where our abilities are going and what has happened with me leads me to believe something is up.
How would you know? You're the one who referenced "shenanigans" going on last night. Doesn't look like there were any to me, just our cop getting killed.
He's motivation-confirmed to me, just like Shalako was.
I don't care if you want me to include him in my possibles. It's not going to happen. I do not believe the guy is scum.
Yes, but when a townie's brain is engaged, he realizes that even people he does not believe are scum are not cleared and should be part of PoE, because he understands that his reads are not necessarily perfect.
Now, as far as AE goes, I should be voting him but now I'm kind of liking not voting him after that pretty opportunistic hop by Infinis. I reckon we should hear him claim at the very least though, so vote: AE.
Now, as far as AE goes, I should be voting him but now I'm kind of liking not voting him after that pretty opportunistic hop by Infinis. I reckon we should hear him claim at the very least though, so vote: AE.
No I didn't misrep. You set up Emo and claiming WIFOM before Emo had posted shows you had no intention of hearing him out. You set Emo up (or who ever else hammered) for the fall.
THE HAMMERER DID NOT HAVE TO HAMMER! Anyone could have unvoted before it came down. Did E_P allow that to happen? No. He went for the jugular and is now using WIFOM and his "intent" to vote as a shield. Intent is not compulsion.
Onwards, Am I allowed to have a vote guys? I've made it clear my number one suspect is Emo. That wagon is going nowhere. I still need a second scumspect, which was Zind, but that was mostly gut. I leave the door open it's possibly Toast but I doubt it.
Zind made a case. I did wait a bit for my attack on A_E since I was at L-1 for quite a while.
I'll summarize, I'm town. Shalako was town. Shalako was caught in a gambit, not a lie. That the cop nor he were killed N1 speaks volumes to the scum not believing he had multiple DK or thinking that he would target town D2(who was that again, oh yeah me)
If I'm lynched I ask that you lynch Emo tomorrow and do not let my death be swept under the rug by slander.
I've claimed twice and now three times. I have an unknown passive ability. I've had no messages or indications from the mod as to what it is. The only clarification I've received is that the ability cannot be actively used, hence passive.
I'm amused that [Shalako], of all people, are talking about terrible reasoning. "Hey, PF's RVS daykill must be serious, therefore I should shoot him to prove that I have a daykill!"
So vague. You don't have a name? Something thats bolded?
So much wifom. Why would others unvote when they thought Shalako to be scum. Not town like yourself. Your playing this game somewhat backwards.
You want to lynch someone else. You have a second suspect(just like Zindabad) but you place your vote on me.
I'm happy with my vote.
I know and nothing I say can change your mind.
Zind is a suspect and so are YOU. The case on YOU is stronger. My gut says Zind is scum, Not a case (like on you) or major behavioral scum tell(like you did).
My name is Secret Role, if you want to call it a name, hence my early soft claim gambit, since there is nothing to soft claim that I can see.
I'm amused that [Shalako], of all people, are talking about terrible reasoning. "Hey, PF's RVS daykill must be serious, therefore I should shoot him to prove that I have a daykill!"
Zindabad's case is highly convincing, and AE's lack of response to the msot damning parts of it make it all the better. I'd be happy to lynch him today.
What case? What part? Investigating PF? I've made my intentions know on that early on. What else is there? I was willing to give him one more day.
I DID NOT MAKE ANYONE HAMMER. I baited the wagon of a obvious town member. I did set up someone for the fall, there was no way for me to know who would hammer.
E_P indicating he wanted to vote at L-2 is different than having the will to hammer. I can not control E_P. But I did force the next voter to be the hammer.
I'm going to reread KCC's posts and see if that gives a clue. Cyouni was an obvkill. They banked on there being no Doc, I'm sure. But why KCC?
Also, @Archmage, what is this "I've been sitting on something" stuff??
We need to get info in the thread at this point. What the hell? I still say a massclaim is the place to be with this few players. We're at 8, with a lynch and a Nightkill that is lylo. Why wait? A lot of role info is in the thread already. I've spoken to mine, Infinis has claimed, Archonoid has demonstrably claimed, and Wuffles has claimed.
Why not the rest of you? Give me a good reason. Give me two.
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I have a secret passive ability. It could be anything (I doubt bulletproof). I prefer to be lynched than shot, jic my ability is PGO or redirector etc. If I'm a miller again, I'm going to scream....That would be three in a row.
@Shalako You're 99% not scum. 1% left open for gambit, because your reasoning is so bad for the shot it has to be true.
Idk about Art. WwaB did nothing inspiring. Art pushed awful hard and heavy on Wuffles II, (which would've been the ideal investigation, but no) I don't see scum risking that with the GF caught out.
We have Cyouni, Art and Arch as confirmed town? Based on that
Leaving E_P, Wuffles, Toast and Zind as the zaj wagon and source of one if not two scum.
Pst it's Zind, hammering his buddy for town cred. Vote: Zindabad
I have played with A_E a bunch, what I think his meta is and what A_E's actual meta is could be two different things. Hence null. Not looking it up is irrelevant.
1. Painting my choice as scummy, nice. That's twice painting a choice as scummy has been done (Wuffles was 1st I believe). So either you attacked him for the same him, or you need a Ritz.
2. I'd prefer not to die, but if I have to die let it be the lynch since Shalako may die by the passive ability.
3. Miller, last time I checked, is a passive ability so it is within the spectrum of things my ability could be.
I'm revealing my passive ability now since there weren't two deaths last night (I'm assuming choice of day/night kill but not both back to back) and a town resource is possibly at risk.
Here it is again. That's two.
And would know that if you looked up my posts because one of my posts STARTS WITH THE CLAIM! The laziness is just epic.
I'm amused that [Shalako], of all people, are talking about terrible reasoning. "Hey, PF's RVS daykill must be serious, therefore I should shoot him to prove that I have a daykill!"
12-11? I'm losing track
Redoing currently
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"I think this is the right move" and "I sound so indecisive" don't really mix well.
Remember this?
The part where AE directed the cop to the godfather? Yeah, I'm still not over that.
No thanks. Maybe after we get the second scum.
"Traps" usually set my alarm bells ringing. I already called you on the whole "vote me" trap, which you inaccurately attributed to your town game when in reality you were an SK the last time you did it, and this one sounds just as bad. It sounds like a way to absolve responsibility for putting Shalako at L-1. I mean, someone was going to have to hammer him. Time was running out, he was stalling and stonewalling, and the game needed to move forward.
I'm pretty sold by this. I've been calling Infinis/AE since yesterday (before Shalako's fake daykill episode.)
You're acting like you didn't give him to the opportunity to do this. If you didn't like how he was heading toward hammering Shalako, then why on earth would you vote Shalako in 962 after E_P had signalled his intent to vote him in 959?
Traps again. This time it's E_P trapping you. I thought you were trapping him?
Not WIFOM.
Didn't care for this. Your language seems a little charged for someone who appears to be getting the upper hand in his struggle.
You made it possible! Scum love being the L-1 vote and hate being the hammerer for precisely this reason.
Your excuses about "Shalako isn't town but I'm going to put him at L-1", hoping to catch a scum hammering a townie, might make sense except for a couple of reasons.
1. E_P declared his intent to vote Shalako. At that point, if you thought he was scum, why vote Shalako instead of E_P?
2. Let me guess. It was a deadline and too late to make a case on E_P. OK. So if that's the case, and it was, because the game's rules state a deadline ending the day will result in No Lynch, how can you blame E_P for hammering Shalako and moving the game along? How much longer was he supposed to wait?
...But all the same, I'm getting that sinking feeling about Infinis being town. He just seems too...weird to be scum. I'd still prefer to go with AE today.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
1. Why?
2. And?
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
Infinis (4) - Toastboy, Emo_Pinata, Archmage Eternal, Archonoid,
Emo_Pinata (2) - Infinis, Artifice 101
Not voting (2) - Zindabad, Wuffles
The choice of the many will outweigh the choice of the few. It takes 5 similar choices to lynch.
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...Are you serious?
Because one line of cop-directing isn't enough evidence. Is that all you have?
1. I thought he was scummy for waffling, but not scum. At that point in the game it was You (Zind) and no clue who else as scum to me. Shalako plays like a petulant child, (No offense meant) but he's gung ho when he gets a power role and then gets pissy and doesn't cooperate when things arent going his way. It was clear that this was his town game. I needed leads and momentum would have been hard to derail. So therefore, I wanted to see who would hammer.
2. Deadline issue
4-6-12 Deadline
3-27-12 Hammer
My argument is why not wait a day? or two? There was more than a week left.
Why not give a simple warning, "I'm hammering... last words shalako?"
Why not say "you suck Infinis for making me hammer, but here it is"?
With more than a week to go he could have waited. He made his intention to vote clear, but he did not allow for enough time to see anything else play out.
Why didn't he vote at L-2 and then turn around in less than 24 hours and slam home the hammer?
@A_E you're hinting at information, ergo a target for scum. I'm honestly surprised the hammer hasn't gone through since you revealed you have info. So we're waiting on what for you to reveal the info? Just asking for clarity not attacking.
12-11? I'm losing track
No, that makes a ton of sense. I feel like an idiot for not reading zindabad's usual "I'm going to scumhunt AE" posts as serious because of their history.
Unvote; Vote Archmage
Infinis is as Infinis does, guys. I'd say the scum are on this stalled town wagon. zinda's got a point. Lets lynch AE.
Infinis does not read like when I've played with his as scum. He sounds quite a bit like he does when he's town. We've played in what, 4 games? Or is it 5?
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A_E has clearly, just like SHALAKO (but with a good deal more common sense and logic to his arguments) demonstrated a clearly townie mindset in the questions he is asking, and the responses he has given. He obviously has a somewhat scarred past with you (just like Cyan and I - we never agree on anything) but, um, get over it.
I know just the quote for this:
I think at this time I want AE to tell us whatever it is he's been holding on to.
I'm not going to reveal to much. My main issue was with the roleblock. I was thinking Wuffles was lying scum or theres another. I've been going back and fourth with the mod because I did not recieve any results for actions. Long story short, there is none. So now I'm unsure on Wuffles being scum or not. Or if something else happened to throw a wrench in there.
@Wuffles, did you get flavor for your actions?
@Archonoid. could you mimic a RB? Or would that override your action? Also did you get flavor on Artifice or just a "town" result?
I don't want others to come in saying if they got flavor of not and out them as having a role, as I'm also not ready for a massclaim.
Now onto that massclaim. Zindabad saying he's against it sends up red flags to me. As if you've played many games with him you'd know he's always willing to claim. Unless you can point me to some games that you were against it Zindabad.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
A_E, did you just suggest a Wuffles/zindabad scum team?
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No, I did not get any flavor.
No, I am I not a scum team with Zindabad. Where the **** did that come from?
Warning for censor evasion
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@Wuffles, no flavor but did you get a succesful result on your action? Also are you certain that your action did indeed target Toastboy?
@Art, no I'm still pretty sure Wuff is town. I'm still pretty certain infinis is scum. I'm feeling Zindabad is the other scum with the way he is trying to push my lynch. I'm thinking he had a hand in the shenanigans over the night and would rather lynch me than deal with me at night. I think he thinks he is on to something.
I'm happy with lynching infinis and believe it is time. Him coming up scum would have me caring less about what happened last night and what would/could happened at night with one scum left.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
I also want a massclaim as soon as possible. The scums, in my opinion, are in Zinda, Emo, Toast or Infinis. Tonight, they will kill one of the confirmed townies, and this will make things even murkier tomorrow.
I say that putting the information out here at this point locks the scums into false claims and either forces them NOT to hit cconfirmed townie (if a better power role turns up) or to allow powerful roles to survive.
It also allows, as has been said, for us to coordinate with Archonoid, which may be worth looking into.
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No I didn't think of this. He either is the scum RBr and lied about his target. Or is a town RBr and there is a scum RBr. Or scum messed around at night. Which there being no flavor or results is impossible for us to figure out. Until we get death reveals.
Tell you what, if he disputes this I will get examples. OK?
They hate us cause they ain't us.
OK so you don't know for sure that your RB targeted Toastboy. Are you willing to not use your ability tonight?
Where is everyone? Easter weekend that big?
They hate us cause they ain't us.
"Textbook" is a lame way of saying I'm scum, and undermining me as part of the town. Getting really tired of this.
I'm not only considering Infinis' behavior now. He does this all the time. I've learned that his "circling around the fishbowl" style is not scummy. He makes his intentions clear as scum. He's pretty readable in his motivations and maneuvers as scum.
Also, fun fact (to use your words) : I don't defend my scumbuddies. Look it up.
Now I'm confused.
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Like setting up the hammer vote for the fall?
They hate us cause they ain't us.
In addition to that, you're still trying to put suspicion on Arti?
vote Toastboy
Here, he tried a gambit to catch scum early and we blew it all to hell.
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I promise I will not target the following players for the night.
Artifice
Archonoid
Archmage Eternal
I will definitely target one of the other four, however.
It doesn't send up gigantic "OMG THIS GUY IS SCUM" red flags to you? It's not just that AE directed the cop on D1, it's that he directed the cop to the #1 lynch pick and godfather Zajnet.
We could have lost the game right there if he had been successful. I don't think I've ever seen any town win after they have investigated the godfather as town. Add that to AE's "hear no evil" defense - posts like this, this and this, where he dodges me and downplays any pressure on him as just my "usual" attacks on him (bogus meta, in other words) and I'm pretty set on lynching him.
Also - and I wasn't really clear enough about this - when I asked "and?", I wanted to express my surprise that you describe both E_P and Infinis as scummy. I'd say E_P is pretty pro-town. I'd say Infinis is pretty scummy, but not necessarily scum, although he is my #2 pick at the moment.
All of this "history" stuff serves exactly two purposes:
1. Friendly ribbing between myself and AE
2. Convenient excuse for him to brush off any attacks I make on him at any time.
Has anyone ever heard me use the same excuse when AE attacks me?
Another one falling for AE's smokescreen. There is no "scarred past." There's a series of jokes and friendly rivalry between us, and then there's an excuse that he can always call on to duck pressure.
"Tunnelling", too? That's a bit of a stretch. Do you have any quotes to justify your characterization of me as "tunneling" AE?
This is a major inaccuracy. I am always in favor of early softclaims (as can be seen in, for example, Sword of Truth Mafia.) I am never in favor of early massclaims, and I have argued against massclaims more times than I can count. Recent examples are Starcraft and NGE.
It is also an insidious accusation. When you state something about another player, it is on you to provide evidence, not to say "This is so, unless you can prove it isn't." That's what I did to you in Goo Mafia, as you never cease reminding me. You should be calling up examples of when I was in favor of massclaims (which you won't find), not trying to say I am in favor of them and ask me to show examples of where I'm not.
Then, when Toastboy asks you for examples, you say "let's wait and see if zindabad comes up with anything." Really? Some burden of proof.
What are the "shenanigans over the night"? I'd like to hear more elucidation about this.
AE is not confirmed and should without any shadow of doubt be on the PoE list. For you to say otherwise gives me grave concern about you.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
unvote.
However, we do need to get a lynch soon. I feel like we're losing focus. New information is needed. Given the most recent discussion, and looking back at his posts, I'm now actually OK with lynching AE. I dislike lynches without certainty, but at this stage in the game, I'm willing to go with someone who's scummy and will, in the worst case, still give us leads from his interactions.
vote Archmage Eternal
Artifice, do you agree with this approach?
Yes you could. I'm just wondering if the scum have abilities to screw with our abilities. Direct them somewhere else. Is there a reason for no flavor/confirmation? We don't know for sure if our abilities are going where they are intended to go.
Your right. Softclaims not massclaims, my mistake. I retract.
No, this is a simple fix. You come in and say 'yeah I'm always up for claims' or call bull**** and call me out on it. I then would show quotes. Thats what happened in Goo. You came in accusing and I demanded proof. When you had nothing thats when pressure started.
What? If you disputed that I would have went looking. I knew there was no way you would as you are fine with claims. I was wrong thinking massclaims. It is softclaims.
Heres a loaded question. How would I know. But not knowing for a fact about where our abilities are going and what has happened with me leads me to believe something is up.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
Can it be this easy? Are Wuffles and AE defending each other as scumbuddies? They're both dead set that the other is town, but I can't for the life of me remember why.
This is either feaermoggering or baseless speculation. Can you please elaborate on whqat in the heck you know
[quote]...what has happened with me...QUOTE]
What HAS happened with you?? Seriously, yo!
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I DID NOT MAKE ANYONE HAMMER. I baited the wagon of a obvious town member. I did set up someone for the fall, there was no way for me to know who would hammer.
E_P indicating he wanted to vote at L-2 is different than having the will to hammer. I can not control E_P. But I did force the next voter to be the hammer. E_P's vote was rash compared to his play up to that point. He had numerous options including doing nothing for a day or two. He chose hammer instead and hammer alone. I've enumerated the many options he had, he chose poorly. He is scummy at best and most likely scum.
I am town, I've set up traps and gambits. I do not mean to sound arrogant as so many of you read me. Far from it, I get frustrated that my POV is rarely accepted. This is a game, but I take it far too seriously.
Comparing my play to Grim Batol is false in only that my role changed as I found relics, I had hoped for another change.
Unvote
Zind, you are on my scum list, but your case on A_E is better than my gut.
Better than your case on A_E is this Romney-istic action by A_E
Good.
Great.
A_E nows who is scummier, but when the tide turns against me
Flip
Misrep, all I was doing was focusing on the hammer
And Flop
Flip Flop complete.
Vote: Archmage Eternal
12-11? I'm losing track
Infinis is scum.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
No I didn't misrep. You set up Emo and claiming WIFOM before Emo had posted shows you had no intention of hearing him out. You set Emo up (or who ever else hammered) for the fall.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
Infinis (3) - Toastboy, Emo_Pinata, Archmage Eternal
Archmage Eternal (2) - Archonoid, Infinis
Toastboy (1)- Artifice 101
Not voting (2) - Zindabad, Wuffles
This vote did not count (Not that it matters anymore): http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=8205004&postcount=1050 - Archonoid
The choice of the many will outweigh the choice of the few. It takes 5 similar choices to lynch.
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Did you? How about refreshing our minds? You were at L-1 with no claim.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
@zindabad: You aren't voting AE?
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I don't care if you want me to include him in my possibles. It's not going to happen. I do not believe the guy is scum.
I really don't agree at all, but I guess that's an issue of style rather than something to do with this game.
How would you know? You're the one who referenced "shenanigans" going on last night. Doesn't look like there were any to me, just our cop getting killed.
Yes, but when a townie's brain is engaged, he realizes that even people he does not believe are scum are not cleared and should be part of PoE, because he understands that his reads are not necessarily perfect.
Now, as far as AE goes, I should be voting him but now I'm kind of liking not voting him after that pretty opportunistic hop by Infinis. I reckon we should hear him claim at the very least though, so vote: AE.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
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I'll claim tomorrow in the hopes that Archonoid, or for some reason Zindabad is town, come to their senses and unvote me.
In the meantime Infinis, claim.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
THE HAMMERER DID NOT HAVE TO HAMMER! Anyone could have unvoted before it came down. Did E_P allow that to happen? No. He went for the jugular and is now using WIFOM and his "intent" to vote as a shield. Intent is not compulsion.
Onwards, Am I allowed to have a vote guys? I've made it clear my number one suspect is Emo. That wagon is going nowhere. I still need a second scumspect, which was Zind, but that was mostly gut. I leave the door open it's possibly Toast but I doubt it.
Zind made a case. I did wait a bit for my attack on A_E since I was at L-1 for quite a while.
I'll summarize, I'm town. Shalako was town. Shalako was caught in a gambit, not a lie. That the cop nor he were killed N1 speaks volumes to the scum not believing he had multiple DK or thinking that he would target town D2(who was that again, oh yeah me)
If I'm lynched I ask that you lynch Emo tomorrow and do not let my death be swept under the rug by slander.
I've claimed twice and now three times. I have an unknown passive ability. I've had no messages or indications from the mod as to what it is. The only clarification I've received is that the ability cannot be actively used, hence passive.
12-11? I'm losing track
So much wifom. Why would others unvote when they thought Shalako to be scum. Not town like yourself. Your playing this game somewhat backwards.
You want to lynch someone else. You have a second suspect(just like Zindabad) but you place your vote on me.
I'm happy with my vote.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
I know and nothing I say can change your mind.
Zind is a suspect and so are YOU. The case on YOU is stronger. My gut says Zind is scum, Not a case (like on you) or major behavioral scum tell(like you did).
My name is Secret Role, if you want to call it a name, hence my early soft claim gambit, since there is nothing to soft claim that I can see.
12-11? I'm losing track
Oh gawd. This game is going to drive me to drink.
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What case? What part? Investigating PF? I've made my intentions know on that early on. What else is there? I was willing to give him one more day.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
Seriously, can we lynch Infinis tomorrow?
Because Artifice disagrees. Artifice is the one player I trust right now.
Hey Archonoid, as the other cleared, lets see if we can figure this out...
There are 6 other players:
Toastboy
Wuffles_II
Infinis
Archmage Eternal
zindabad
Emo_Pinata
These are who they think are scum and
not scumamongst themselves (parenthetical references are a brief not as to why, or how they stated this):Toastboy: ??
Wuffles_II:
Archmage(will not RB)Infinis: Emo_Pinata (trap), zindabad
Archmage Eternal:
Wuffles, zindabad, Infiniszindabad: Archmage Eternal, Wuffles (grave concern)
Emo_Pinata: Infinis (countertrap)
.. eh, I'm bored. The above is partial. Copypasta and help me fill it in? Also the wagons are like this:
[INDENT]Day 1 Final Vote Count
Wuffles_II (4) - Shalako, Zajnet, Artifice 101, Infinis
Zajnet (7) - TheFooFish, Wuffles_II, Archonoid, Emo_Pinata, Cyouni, Toastboy, Zindabad
Archonoid (1) - Archmage_Eternal
===============================
Day 2 Final Vote Count
Zindabad (2) - Shalako, Archmage_Eternal
Infinis (2) - Toastboy, Wuffles_II
Shalako (6)- Archonoid, Cyouni, Zindabad, Artifice 101, Infinis, Emo_Pinata/INDENT]
I'm going to reread KCC's posts and see if that gives a clue. Cyouni was an obvkill. They banked on there being no Doc, I'm sure. But why KCC?
Also, @Archmage, what is this "I've been sitting on something" stuff??
We need to get info in the thread at this point. What the hell? I still say a massclaim is the place to be with this few players. We're at 8, with a lynch and a Nightkill that is lylo. Why wait? A lot of role info is in the thread already. I've spoken to mine, Infinis has claimed, Archonoid has demonstrably claimed, and Wuffles has claimed.
Why not the rest of you? Give me a good reason. Give me two.
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There's my first claim, Toast.
Here it is again. That's two.
And would know that if you looked up my posts because one of my posts STARTS WITH THE CLAIM! The laziness is just epic.
12-11? I'm losing track