For example, earlier in this thread, someone posted something along the lines of:
"Jaime Lannister...yowza! Keep an eye on him, especially as the season progresses".
This tells me many things:
(mild spoilers - fine if you've watched season so far)
1. Given what you admitted yourself, that characters die regularly and unexpectedly, a post like the above spoils for me that he survives for most of the season at least, if not all of it. That ruins some of the experience just the same, knowing that's safe for now.
2. That he will have a more important character arc this season than before, and that we can expect to be surprised in regards to his storyline.
Meh. You see a different side of him. Not much different from what we have been seeing him this season. He has been on a steady climb from douche to human being who has made redeemable mistakes. He definitely grows on you. More important. Not so far. He is certainly building up to it in the books though. Not there yet.
This is important. I am sick of people implying people die regularly and unexpectedly. GRRM built up the scenario. Everyone dies for a reason. Roose is actually a very smart guy. He killed Robb to end the war. He made it clear in the books. He is doing what he thinks is right even if that's betraying his king just like how Jamie killed the mad king to save people in King's landing. The "Have a main character alive - not anymore" meme has been funny for the most part but people that are terribly stupid and just not insightful make it distasteful. Robb made so many vital mistakes in the war. He just didn't know how to play the game just like Ned. Roose does.
Saw the end of the season, kind of anti-climactic though it does lead into the next season well. It feels like it would have been a great mid season show.
Just finished the season, and something I wanted to vent about:
Does anyone else really really really really hate Dany?
What I love about the series (being a show-watcher only) is the complex characters and the interactions between them. Perfect example being the hound. Sometimes you like him, sometimes you hate him, sometimes you understand him, sometimes you don't. Tyrion is more likeable, obviously, but even he has plenty of vices. And the worst villain, Geoffrey, is still, on some level, just a kid who was given way too much power. I love that Arya is getting darker too. Theon is sort of a massive jerk, but you've gotta feel bad for him at this point, orphan-burning notwithstanding, and of course the kingslayer has gone through a similar progression. Catelyn was mostly a good mother but she also betrayed her son by releasing the kingslayer. All these characters are complex and interesting and really really fun to watch. More than almost any other show, I have no idea what's going to happen next, because the characters don't feel like types and events don't feel like staged plot points. They feel real.
But then there's freaking Dany. Her fights are always snore-inducingly black and white, she's always 100% virtuous, and she's barely related to all the interesting stuff going on elsewhere. Not to mention I feel like she's wooden and boringly acted. Everyone always loves her except the barely-fleshed-out clearly-evil slave owners she's endlessly fighting. It's a totally black and white storyline in an otherwise very colorful series, and I'm terrified that all that amazingly complex grey area is going to be casually tossed aside so she can be the winner on account of being a boring, morally-unambiguous tosser.
Not to mention, her dragons are stupid. Every fantasy anything ever made has dragons, and absolutely nothing interesting has been added to hers. I can't imagine why anyone would think they're interesting unless they've never heard of "fantasy" before.
So yes, in conclusion I want her to die, or at least do something really really messed up. Like, maybe just kill a little kid for, like, no reason. That would be perfect.
Is there anyone else who shares my hatred? Or am I just a weirdo?
Is there anyone else who shares my hatred? Or am I just a weirdo?
You're just a weirdo.
I love all the grey area in this show just as much and how characters can be both good and/or bad depending on the situation. Daenerys is a good character because she constrasts with all that gray. Her story is a little boring at times, but her being virtuous shows that there's even a little hope for humankind in this sick and twisted world. Every story needs a character from lawful-good to chaotic-evil, this is Game of Throne's sole lawful-good character. Obvious hyperbole aside, she isn't interacting with anyone in Westeros yet. Give it time and I'll bet her story gets more colorful.
Just finished the season, and something I wanted to vent about:
Does anyone else really really really really hate Dany?
What I love about the series (being a show-watcher only) is the complex characters and the interactions between them. Perfect example being the hound. Sometimes you like him, sometimes you hate him, sometimes you understand him, sometimes you don't. Tyrion is more likeable, obviously, but even he has plenty of vices. And the worst villain, Geoffrey, is still, on some level, just a kid who was given way too much power. I love that Arya is getting darker too. Theon is sort of a massive jerk, but you've gotta feel bad for him at this point, orphan-burning notwithstanding, and of course the kingslayer has gone through a similar progression. Catelyn was mostly a good mother but she also betrayed her son by releasing the kingslayer. All these characters are complex and interesting and really really fun to watch. More than almost any other show, I have no idea what's going to happen next, because the characters don't feel like types and events don't feel like staged plot points. They feel real.
But then there's freaking Dany. Her fights are always snore-inducingly black and white, she's always 100% virtuous, and she's barely related to all the interesting stuff going on elsewhere. Not to mention I feel like she's wooden and boringly acted. Everyone always loves her except the barely-fleshed-out clearly-evil slave owners she's endlessly fighting. It's a totally black and white storyline in an otherwise very colorful series, and I'm terrified that all that amazingly complex grey area is going to be casually tossed aside so she can be the winner on account of being a boring, morally-unambiguous tosser.
Not to mention, her dragons are stupid. Every fantasy anything ever made has dragons, and absolutely nothing interesting has been added to hers. I can't imagine why anyone would think they're interesting unless they've never heard of "fantasy" before.
So yes, in conclusion I want her to die, or at least do something really really messed up. Like, maybe just kill a little kid for, like, no reason. That would be perfect.
Is there anyone else who shares my hatred? Or am I just a weirdo?
Oh it's not all morally unambiguous with her. You will soon start to see her decisions backfiring or ending up in unforeseen consequences due to inexperience and refusal to see the world how it really is. Consider that her chapters are written from her point of view, so obviously she thinks she's doing good. But that's a skewed viewpoint. Just think of all the thousands of slaves she just freed - where will they go, what will they do? Yunkai's structure and economy is built on slaves. Remember the slave wars for freedom in the US, how many issues did that cause
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The difference for me between Eddard and other "good" characters (although ofc Eddard cheated on his wife, so he's not exactly perfect) and Dany is that most characters doing the "right thing" face serious repercussions. Dany gets to freaking crowd surf. Even when she's done questionable things, it always works out perfectly in the end for her, and then everyone loves her etc etc.
But if she gets crapped on in the future, that does my heart some good.
Eddard Stark and Barristan Selmy imo are the only lawful good characters in show/books (maybe Brienne as well). Daenerys is Neutral Good or Chaotic Good, as are Jon Snow, Robb Stark and Davos Seaworth.
Daenerys and Jon are the "good" guys.
Speculation, read only if you have read the books.
Which is kinda fitting since there is 99% chance they are cousins and likely end up the King and Queen of Westeros.
On the contrary Davos is definately lawful good He may have been chaotic good or chaotic neutral when he was smuggling as the onion knight but after the night when he is in the boat with melissandre he definately morphs to more of a lawful good character. This is especially evident in how he deals with the night's watch and Edric Storm. It's articulated very well in the books and I think the actor does a damn fine job in the TV show.
Hey, Dirk. You're my new friend. We'll hate Dany together.
You've touched on a lot of points about how she seemingly inhabits a different world than the rest of the characters this show follows and you're correct. She's not held accountable to the world/story (at least thus far). It's a shocking contrast to how characters are handled elsewhere in this story. She's daytime tv compared to the adult drama of the other characters.
To be blunt and opinionated...she seems like fan fic to me. Like some weird Mary Sue that was officially retconned into canon.
Well Dany did go through hell in the first season. She literally went through the fire to become a different person than she was when the show started. Heck, the beginning of season 2 had her and her people on the brink of death.
Dany's definitely been living the high life this past season, but she didn't get there without experiencing some awful hardship.
If you're a tv only viewer i would love to hear your predictions for the characters. Who wins? Who loses? Expected allegiances? Battles still to come? Fate of lesser characters?
Dany has made a nice bed for herself & will be laying on it shortly.
Not so much sympathy, more like...I think if you actually wanted to make a real supervillain, giving a kid the power to kill anyone he wants and always telling him he's right is probably the fastest way to do it.
As mentioned, potential horrible consequences for Dany sounds awesome.
Well Dany did go through hell in the first season. She literally went through the fire to become a different person than she was when the show started. Heck, the beginning of season 2 had her and her people on the brink of death.
Dany's definitely been living the high life this past season, but she didn't get there without experiencing some awful hardship.
Sort of, but not nearly what a lot of other characters have been through. Plus she doesn't seem very messed up by it, which is really a downer for me. Arya's a pretty "good" character, but she hasn't made it through all the bad stuff without some of it rubbing off on her.
Hey, Dirk. You're my new friend. We'll hate Dany together.
You've touched on a lot of points about how she seemingly inhabits a different world than the rest of the characters this show follows and you're correct. She's not held accountable to the world/story (at least thus far). It's a shocking contrast to how characters are handled elsewhere in this story. She's daytime tv compared to the adult drama of the other characters.
To be blunt and opinionated...she seems like fan fic to me. Like some weird Mary Sue that was officially retconned into canon.
YAY
and yeah, pretty much. I didn't hate her as much season 1, but recently it's just boring. And the "fight" last episode was...really bad. One of the worst of the series so far imo.
Eddard Stark and Barristan Selmy imo are the only lawful good characters in show/books (maybe Brienne as well). Daenerys is Neutral Good or Chaotic Good, as are Jon Snow, Robb Stark and Davos Seaworth.
Daenerys and Jon are the "good" guys.
Speculation, read only if you have read the books.
Which is kinda fitting since there is 99% chance they are cousins and likely end up the King and Queen of Westeros.
Meh I disagree. And no there is not a 99% chance of that happening. I don't even see 10% of that happening... GRRM doesn't write like that. That's too fairy talesqe for him. He said so himself the ending would be bittersweet.
I really disagree with you on Barristan Selmy being lawful good. He has honor. There is no question about it but he has switched sides every time it was convenient for him. He also didn't help Ned even though he knew he should have. Sometimes it wasn't his decision but he hasn't been consistently lawful good. The only person in the books who is completely lawful good is Ned. He is the symbol of honor. Everything's he's done is for what's right and honor.
GRRM says that he rarely writes characters completely good or evil. If there was someone that would be Ned.
Roose did what he did to end the war and restore peace. He didn't care how he did it. He saw the political and economical factors behind the scenes that Robb couldn't see. His intentions are good. His methods not so much.
Kelly C is definitely chaotic good. or chaotic stupid. GRRM wrote her spot on as a idealistic teenage girl. She is influenced so easily by what she thinks is right and in the end she does nothing at all. She struggles greatly with her emotions. She is constantly confused and it is rather disappointing at times.
Everyone loves the Mannis but he is very much like Kelly C. He is idealistic as well but he knows how the world works yet he is not affected by it. He is adamant and manly and so kawaii. Everything is cool about him other than Mel.
And for all the Kelly C haters out there. Wait until she starts doing nothing. You will have so many more reasons to hate her. LOL...
Eddard Stark and Barristan Selmy imo are the only lawful good characters in show/books (maybe Brienne as well). Daenerys is Neutral Good or Chaotic Good, as are Jon Snow, Robb Stark and Davos Seaworth.
Daenerys and Jon are the "good" guys.
Speculation, read only if you have read the books.
Which is kinda fitting since there is 99% chance they are cousins and likely end up the King and Queen of Westeros.
I'd say the books have a good deal of gray versus grey. What I mean is, look at Robb. Even though he's a "good guy", he's motivated by revenge, and the men under him exhibit a number of big bad tropes, from the flayings to ultimately overthrowing him.
Of course, when it's not gray versus grey, it's black versus grey.
Also, the theory is that Jon is Rhaegar's son and would be Daenerys' nephew. Still, there are far better explanations, and GRRM already had Maester Aemon foreshadow the Red Wedding and Stannis offering to legitimize Jon by mentioning that he kept his oath to the detriment of his house, so it's dueling prophecies, one of which has already come true.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
This is important. I am sick of people implying people die regularly and unexpectedly. GRRM built up the scenario. Everyone dies for a reason. Roose is actually a very smart guy. He killed Robb to end the war. He made it clear in the books. He is doing what he thinks is right even if that's betraying his king just like how Jamie killed the mad king to save people in King's landing. The "Have a main character alive - not anymore" meme has been funny for the most part but people that are terribly stupid and just not insightful make it distasteful. Robb made so many vital mistakes in the war. He just didn't know how to play the game just like Ned. Roose does.
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Does anyone else really really really really hate Dany?
What I love about the series (being a show-watcher only) is the complex characters and the interactions between them. Perfect example being the hound. Sometimes you like him, sometimes you hate him, sometimes you understand him, sometimes you don't. Tyrion is more likeable, obviously, but even he has plenty of vices. And the worst villain, Geoffrey, is still, on some level, just a kid who was given way too much power. I love that Arya is getting darker too. Theon is sort of a massive jerk, but you've gotta feel bad for him at this point, orphan-burning notwithstanding, and of course the kingslayer has gone through a similar progression. Catelyn was mostly a good mother but she also betrayed her son by releasing the kingslayer. All these characters are complex and interesting and really really fun to watch. More than almost any other show, I have no idea what's going to happen next, because the characters don't feel like types and events don't feel like staged plot points. They feel real.
But then there's freaking Dany. Her fights are always snore-inducingly black and white, she's always 100% virtuous, and she's barely related to all the interesting stuff going on elsewhere. Not to mention I feel like she's wooden and boringly acted. Everyone always loves her except the barely-fleshed-out clearly-evil slave owners she's endlessly fighting. It's a totally black and white storyline in an otherwise very colorful series, and I'm terrified that all that amazingly complex grey area is going to be casually tossed aside so she can be the winner on account of being a boring, morally-unambiguous tosser.
Not to mention, her dragons are stupid. Every fantasy anything ever made has dragons, and absolutely nothing interesting has been added to hers. I can't imagine why anyone would think they're interesting unless they've never heard of "fantasy" before.
So yes, in conclusion I want her to die, or at least do something really really messed up. Like, maybe just kill a little kid for, like, no reason. That would be perfect.
Is there anyone else who shares my hatred? Or am I just a weirdo?
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
You're just a weirdo.
I love all the grey area in this show just as much and how characters can be both good and/or bad depending on the situation. Daenerys is a good character because she constrasts with all that gray. Her story is a little boring at times, but her being virtuous shows that there's even a little hope for humankind in this sick and twisted world. Every story needs a character from lawful-good to chaotic-evil, this is Game of Throne's sole lawful-good character. Obvious hyperbole aside, she isn't interacting with anyone in Westeros yet. Give it time and I'll bet her story gets more colorful.
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But if she gets crapped on in the future, that does my heart some good.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
On the contrary Davos is definately lawful good He may have been chaotic good or chaotic neutral when he was smuggling as the onion knight but after the night when he is in the boat with melissandre he definately morphs to more of a lawful good character. This is especially evident in how he deals with the night's watch and Edric Storm. It's articulated very well in the books and I think the actor does a damn fine job in the TV show.
You've touched on a lot of points about how she seemingly inhabits a different world than the rest of the characters this show follows and you're correct. She's not held accountable to the world/story (at least thus far). It's a shocking contrast to how characters are handled elsewhere in this story. She's daytime tv compared to the adult drama of the other characters.
To be blunt and opinionated...she seems like fan fic to me. Like some weird Mary Sue that was officially retconned into canon.
Dany's definitely been living the high life this past season, but she didn't get there without experiencing some awful hardship.
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She now has an army and a people
She's doing pretty good
It's too bad that she's clearly going to be the "good guy" but what can you do?
Waiiit, sympathy for Joffry??
Dany has made a nice bed for herself & will be laying on it shortly.
If you're a tv only viewer i would love to hear your predictions for the characters. Who wins? Who loses? Expected allegiances? Battles still to come? Fate of lesser characters?
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Not so much sympathy, more like...I think if you actually wanted to make a real supervillain, giving a kid the power to kill anyone he wants and always telling him he's right is probably the fastest way to do it.
As mentioned, potential horrible consequences for Dany sounds awesome.
Sort of, but not nearly what a lot of other characters have been through. Plus she doesn't seem very messed up by it, which is really a downer for me. Arya's a pretty "good" character, but she hasn't made it through all the bad stuff without some of it rubbing off on her.
YAY
and yeah, pretty much. I didn't hate her as much season 1, but recently it's just boring. And the "fight" last episode was...really bad. One of the worst of the series so far imo.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
If you read the books and how it is sequenced. It makes sense to put this off until next season.
Meh I disagree. And no there is not a 99% chance of that happening. I don't even see 10% of that happening... GRRM doesn't write like that. That's too fairy talesqe for him. He said so himself the ending would be bittersweet.
GRRM says that he rarely writes characters completely good or evil. If there was someone that would be Ned.
Roose did what he did to end the war and restore peace. He didn't care how he did it. He saw the political and economical factors behind the scenes that Robb couldn't see. His intentions are good. His methods not so much.
Kelly C is definitely chaotic good. or chaotic stupid. GRRM wrote her spot on as a idealistic teenage girl. She is influenced so easily by what she thinks is right and in the end she does nothing at all. She struggles greatly with her emotions. She is constantly confused and it is rather disappointing at times.
Everyone loves the Mannis but he is very much like Kelly C. He is idealistic as well but he knows how the world works yet he is not affected by it. He is adamant and manly and so kawaii. Everything is cool about him other than Mel.
And for all the Kelly C haters out there. Wait until she starts doing nothing. You will have so many more reasons to hate her. LOL...
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I'd say the books have a good deal of gray versus grey. What I mean is, look at Robb. Even though he's a "good guy", he's motivated by revenge, and the men under him exhibit a number of big bad tropes, from the flayings to ultimately overthrowing him.
Of course, when it's not gray versus grey, it's black versus grey.
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