I'm sure some of you have heard of, or seen the ads for the new "Before Watchmen," miniseries from DC. For those unfamiliar:
The original Watchmen, written by the legendary Alan Moore, is regarded as one of, if not the greatest graphic novel of all time, and by far the largest achievement in the history of comics. It was dark, and implemented unique storytelling structure. The themes were moral, psychological, and touched on the paranoia, insanity and megalomania of nations, and individuals who would call themselves "Superheroes." A masterpiece on an unrivaled level, and the most critically acclaimed Graphic Novel ever. Unfortunately, it's success helped spark the comic's crash of the 90s, with many comic writers seeking to emulate the darkness of Watchmen, including the extreme graphic violence, and sexual scenes. Many (almost all, actually) of those comics failed to handle it with the taste and maturity of watchmen, to the detriment of the artform. DC also exploited Alan Moore to a great extent, allowing them to release the (decent) Watchmen Movie without his approval, and now, exploit his intellectual property with a prequel series; Before Watchmen.
The first issue is now out, and my fears were well founded. It bites. The writing either reaches much too far, or doesn't reach far enough. The opening monologue is excessive, and lacks context in the actual issue (though those familiar with Watchmen would know what it's about). The issue serves only to introduce the reader to the cast: the Minutemen (the original superheroes in the Watchmen 'verse). It's narrated by the first Nite Owl- a rather unfortunate decision, I must say.
The issue is that it's characters have typical superhero personas. Nite Owl is brave, noble, and strong, like Batman minus the darkness. There's a holocaust survivor who carries that memory with her to fight injustice. There's a crazy, punisher-esque brute who doesn't seem to have a personality (much less a soul) yet. There's two characters who are superheroes for the money. There's an ex-marine/military consultant who uses his wealth to fight crime with elaborate gadgets. There's also one interesting character, who is overwhelmed by the fear and pain of his creation (a glider suit), pushing him to abuse painkillers and alcohol. But he's dead by the start of the story, so it doesn't even matter (he only got a page dedicated to him). We also get the Comedian (who died at the start of the Original Watchmen), but he seems more an immature caricature of the Comedian we saw in Watchmen. Rather than being a twisted individual who at least tries to do good, despite his brutal, barbaric nature, he's just a kid with no morals, who justifies his extortion by calling himself a superhero.
What it lacks is the perspective Watchmen had. The original had Rorschach, who provided an insane, twisted view on the world that was so paranoid and holier-than-thou, it served as a critique on superheroes and their fandom. It had Doctor Manhattan, who literally showed us the world of watchmen through the eyes of a god. It had Nite Owl II, who provided a cowardly, nervous, tired, human, outlook on the world.
As sort of a slap-in-the-face, they don't even leave the tale of the Crimson Corsair alone, including a 3 page bit of the in-comic comic.
The art's okay, if it's any consolation, though it shifts between classic pulp, and emulating that of the original.
The original Watchmen, written by the legendary Alan Moore, is regarded as one of, if not the greatest graphic novel of all time, and by far the largest achievement in the history of comics. It was dark, and implemented unique storytelling structure. The themes were moral, psychological, and touched on the paranoia, insanity and megalomania of nations, and individuals who would call themselves "Superheroes." A masterpiece on an unrivaled level, and the most critically acclaimed Graphic Novel ever. Unfortunately, it's success helped spark the comic's crash of the 90s, with many comic writers seeking to emulate the darkness of Watchmen, including the extreme graphic violence, and sexual scenes. Many (almost all, actually) of those comics failed to handle it with the taste and maturity of watchmen, to the detriment of the artform. DC also exploited Alan Moore to a great extent, allowing them to release the (decent) Watchmen Movie without his approval, and now, exploit his intellectual property with a prequel series; Before Watchmen.
Okay, let's be clear about one thing: the Watchmen characters are not Alan Moore's intellectual property. They are and have been DC's from the beginning. This company ownership of writers' creations is absolutely standard for DC and Marvel. And yes, Moore's intense disillusionment with this system led him to make the move into creator-owned comics and swear he'd never work for DC again (an oath he later went back on, due to complicated circumstances). But regardless of the lack of respect or artistic taste shown by DC making adaptations and expansions of Watchmen, legally they are in the clear.
Also, no hagiography of Alan Moore would be complete without mentioning that the man is literally insane.
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Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Thats why they call it "property", so if you contract to be paid to make it for somebody else, then you've SOLD your property.
Personally I appreciate and recognize the influence of Alan Moore... But the reality is that I don't "love" anything he's written. I just "like" it.
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As for "before watchmen", is this just a blatant attempt to produce more IP that can readily be converted into cinema? Especially since so many of DC's IPs are either very uncinematic (Flash movie? Aquaman? Martian Manhunter? Ugh) or just generic (Nightwing? Powergurl? Hmmmm original costume). Even wonder woman seems difficult... In tone.
(1) Well, with the success of Captain America, the WW-II period superhero movie is at least a genre with which the audience will be familiar.
(2) and with the outrageous success of the Avengers, the ensemble superhero team movie is very, very easy to get greenlit. I fear we will potentially get a glut of these.
As for "before watchmen", is this just a blatant attempt to produce more IP that can readily be converted into cinema?
I don't think so. IIRC, Watchmen was a box-office disappointment. The obvious direction for DC to go on the cinematic front is to get their act together with the Justice League. Better to bill names like Superman and Batman than the Comedian and the Silk Specter. No, I think these comics are a blatant attempt to sell comics to Watchmen fans, nothing more.
Especially since so many of DC's IPs are either very uncinematic (Flash movie? Aquaman? Martian Manhunter? Ugh) or just generic (Nightwing? Powergurl? Hmmmm original costume). Even wonder woman seems difficult... In tone.
Well, Wonder Woman is obviously workable: Lynda Carter did it for years. Drop the camp sensibilities from that show and from Xena: Warrior Princess, squash the two together, and you've got the basics of a modern Wonder Woman flick.
I could also see a Flash movie happening. Lots of potential for cool bullet-time-type action scenes. It'd be tonally lighter, though, and that may not be what studios are looking for.
There's also Green Arrow, though they're actually taking the CW-series route with him.
And DC doesn't need to give up on Green Lantern, either. Marvel didn't give up on the Hulk, and Eric Bana's film bombed way worse than Ryan Reynolds'.
And finally, as the nuclear option, there's Sandman. If they could get that right, it might be one of the greatest movies of all time.
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Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Makes sense. Looks like Before Watchmen has been in the works since the movie.
It's more like the books became a money grab after the movie made the Watchmen graphic novel super popular, more so than it was before. Any decent movie does the same for the comic books, even a mediocre performer like Watchmen movie. I rememeber my eleven copies of amazing spiderman 129 shot through the roof when the punisher movie came out, even though the movie sucked and did poorly.
Don't see how you can make the Flash's powers anything other than a bit campy. Realistic tone won't work because his power is so ridiculously useful that audience constantly asks, "why doesn he just..." in most confrontations. Superspeed seems to be reasonably balanced until you actually put it into play. It's a useless power if you make him fast as a fast car... But it's ridiculously overpowered if you make him fast enough to create cyclones with his wake and become invisible to the naked eye. It's just a difficult power to balance, so the only way to balance the power is by having it conveniently vary to serve the plot. It's even ridiculous to portray it on film because it looks like you're speeding up the film and going for comedy ( cue "yackety sax" ). It's a problem even CGI can't solve. It's like a combo deck in MtG... non-interactive. movie needs a tone that says... "don't ask"
Making Flash a bit player in a larger movie (like JLA) works, since less screen time to make you start asking obvious questions.
Wonder woman with Lynda Carter was not played straight. It was cheesy bordering on campy (the costumes they showed with Adriana Palicki were threatening to do the same). Xena likewise was tongue in cheek as well. I believe WW can be done straight, but it's difficult to do well, since the oriinal wonder woman and her uniform, etc. seems culturally... Outdated... You have to drop the invisible plane and the gold uniform. Stick to the God/Goddess from Amazon island and make them super liberated modern sensibility to play it straight... Then it might work by taking the Captain America route and making it a timeless fish out of water tale when she comes to America and things are nowhere near as equal... Give her some throwaway lines that makes it clear she doesn't look down on stand by your man Suzy homemaker, and give her some comments about men she sees so that the ultra-conservatives know she is safely "hetero" enough for them to take their kids to.
I agree Sandman could be great... But it would require vision, genius, conviction, and courage to bring that to the screen. Sandman might work better as a series.
And finally, as the nuclear option, there's Sandman. If they could get that right, it might be one of the greatest movies of all time.
A movie would absolutely fail, Sandman requires a TV series with at least 2 seasons to stay faithful to the comics. Whereas Watchmen could get away with a movie because it was short enough, Sandman is a long series with an array of characters and plots that you just can't squeeze into a 2 hour movie.
Don't see how you can make the Flash's powers anything other than a bit campy. Realistic tone won't work because his power is so ridiculously useful that audience constantly asks, "why doesn he just..." in most confrontations. Superspeed seems to be reasonably balanced until you actually put it into play. It's a useless power if you make him fast as a fast car... But it's ridiculously overpowered if you make him fast enough to create cyclones with his wake and become invisible to the naked eye. It's just a difficult power to balance, so the only way to balance the power is by having it conveniently vary to serve the plot. It's even ridiculous to portray it on film because it looks like you're speeding up the film and going for comedy ( cue "yackety sax" ). It's a problem even CGI can't solve. It's like a combo deck in MtG... non-interactive. movie needs a tone that says... "don't ask"
Or, y'know, one of the Flash villains who also has superspeed.
But a Flash movie is going to be lighter in tone no matter what. You just cannot get a The Dark Knight out of it and stay at all true to the character. Raimi Spider-Man level is about as dark as I can see it getting.
Wonder woman with Lynda Carter was not played straight. It was cheesy bordering on campy (the costumes they showed with Adriana Palicki were threatening to do the same). Xena likewise was tongue in cheek as well.
They zigzagged between goofy and straight. That was sort of my point.
I believe WW can be done straight, but it's difficult to do well, since the oriinal wonder woman and her uniform, etc. seems culturally... Outdated... You have to drop the invisible plane and the gold uniform. Stick to the God/Goddess from Amazon island and make them super liberated modern sensibility to play it straight... Then it might work by taking the Captain America route and making it a timeless fish out of water tale when she comes to America and things are nowhere near as equal... Give her some throwaway lines that makes it clear she doesn't look down on stand by your man Suzy homemaker, and give her some comments about men she sees so that the ultra-conservatives know she is safely "hetero" enough for them to take their kids to.
Recently, especially since the "New 52" reboot, they've really been playing up the mythical side of Wonder Woman. Gods and cosmological crises and Zeus-bastards by the boatload. Hence my Xena comments.
Oh, and being an Amazon warrior, she kind of kills people sometimes. So there's that.
A movie would absolutely fail, Sandman requires a TV series with at least 2 seasons to stay faithful to the comics. Whereas Watchmen could get away with a movie because it was short enough, Sandman is a long series with an array of characters and plots that you just can't squeeze into a 2 hour movie.
Or, y'know, one of the Flash villains who also has superspeed.
Yes... as I said, cue "yackety Sax"...
They zigzagged between goofy and straight. That was sort of my point. Recently, especially since the "New 52" reboot, they've really been playing up the mythical side of Wonder Woman. Gods and cosmological crises and Zeus-bastards by the boatload. Hence my Xena comments. Oh, and being an Amazon warrior, she kind of kills people sometimes. So there's that.
Not disagreeing with anything other than the idea that Lynda Carter Wonder Woman was played straight... I don't think it ever came across to me as serious. It wasn't Adam West Batman level campy... but it was tonally barely better than Greatest American Hero goofy.
That's why they call them "adaptations".
I think a 2 hour Sandman adaptation will come off utterly generic, and fail to capture any of the nuance of what made Sandman great. The problem is that just explaining the premise of Sandman in a way that doesn't make it seem like some generic mystical crap, would either require a ton of boring exposition... or take a lot of time and storytelling. A feature length movie is just too short in my opinion.
I think they should've just went with ignoring the connection to the original Watchmen and had it in the same universe sort of like Prometheus did. You see some of the smaller stuff that went on, but not the real major stuff to allow a break from Moore while maintaining property rights in that universe and fully exploiting it.
On the topic of main narrators, I agree Night Owl doesn't make me feel all that great about wanting to read it. Frankly, they needed a stronger pastiche, and probably in a way preferably female that goes from insane to sane to be inverted of the original.
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The first issue is now out, and my fears were well founded. It bites. The writing either reaches much too far, or doesn't reach far enough. The opening monologue is excessive, and lacks context in the actual issue (though those familiar with Watchmen would know what it's about). The issue serves only to introduce the reader to the cast: the Minutemen (the original superheroes in the Watchmen 'verse). It's narrated by the first Nite Owl- a rather unfortunate decision, I must say.
Who else could be the voice of the group. Whilst Hooded Justice was the first to put on the Mask and Captain Metropolis might have been the impetus for the group to form Night Owl was portrayed at least to me as the glue that held it together.
The issue is that it's characters have typical superhero personas. Nite Owl is brave, noble, and strong, like Batman minus the darkness. There's a holocaust survivor who carries that memory with her to fight injustice. There's a crazy, punisher-esque brute who doesn't seem to have a personality (much less a soul) yet.
Yep that would be Hooded Justice done fairly well, he always came across as just being the mask with not actual personality. Nite Owl was idealistic and they have actually given the Silhouette a bit more background than being a lesbian that didn't like Child Pornography.
There's two characters who are superheroes for the money.
Again no arguments on this, Dollar Bill was sponsored by a Bank and Silk Spectre I was in it for the modelling contracts not any great altruistic wish to better herself or humanity.
There's an ex-marine/military consultant who uses his wealth to fight crime with elaborate gadgets. There's also one interesting character, who is overwhelmed by the fear and pain of his creation (a glider suit), pushing him to abuse painkillers and alcohol. But he's dead by the start of the story, so it doesn't even matter (he only got a page dedicated to him).
No real argument about Captain Metropolis just that it didn't mention to many gadgets in the original book. What you are claiming they have done to Mothman bites though and appears to be the biggest downer on the book. He was not scared of his creation but was driven to drink by the the US government during the McCarthy era and I believe is still alive though still sectioned during the time period of the original book.
We also get the Comedian (who died at the start of the Original Watchmen), but he seems more an immature caricature of the Comedian we saw in Watchmen. Rather than being a twisted individual who at least tries to do good, despite his brutal, barbaric nature, he's just a kid with no morals, who justifies his extortion by calling himself a superhero.
Again no arguments with this The Comedian is a brute who only displayed any redeeming qualities when he was faced with something so vast that it shattered his world view. Remember him callously killing the mother of his unborn child during Vietnam due to her bottling him or his actions during the Keyne Riots he was only in it for his personal if sadistic enjoyment.
What it lacks is the perspective Watchmen had. The original had Rorschach, who provided an insane, twisted view on the world that was so paranoid and holier-than-thou, it served as a critique on superheroes and their fandom. It had Doctor Manhattan, who literally showed us the world of watchmen through the eyes of a god. It had Nite Owl II, who provided a cowardly, nervous, tired, human, outlook on the world.
As sort of a slap-in-the-face, they don't even leave the tale of the Crimson Corsair alone, including a 3 page bit of the in-comic comic.
The art's okay, if it's any consolation, though it shifts between classic pulp, and emulating that of the original.
From what you have posted in most cases they actually got the characters right and the problem is there is not a character that would give you the sort of perspective that you are wanting with out creating a new character which would have been even worse. I agree that it didn't need to be made but now it has I think you are looking for things that can't be done with out butchering what were are told about these characters in the potted histories that Night Owl I gives us.
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Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and start slitting throats.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
Okay, let's be clear about one thing: the Watchmen characters are not Alan Moore's intellectual property. They are and have been DC's from the beginning. This company ownership of writers' creations is absolutely standard for DC and Marvel. And yes, Moore's intense disillusionment with this system led him to make the move into creator-owned comics and swear he'd never work for DC again (an oath he later went back on, due to complicated circumstances). But regardless of the lack of respect or artistic taste shown by DC making adaptations and expansions of Watchmen, legally they are in the clear.
Also, no hagiography of Alan Moore would be complete without mentioning that the man is literally insane.
I will give you this much, Alan Moore is bat**** insane, and most of his comics are haphazard, disturbing works which can best be described as surrealist fetish pornography. But a few analysts point this out, he's British, and European Intellectual Property laws are a lot different than in the states. Alan Moore went into the deal young, and assuming that it would be under the laws he was familiar with. He was wrong.
Who else could be the voice of the group. Whilst Hooded Justice was the first to put on the Mask and Captain Metropolis might have been the impetus for the group to form Night Owl was portrayed at least to me as the glue that held it together.
Yep that would be Hooded Justice done fairly well, he always came across as just being the mask with not actual personality. Nite Owl was idealistic and they have actually given the Silhouette a bit more background than being a lesbian that didn't like Child Pornography.
Again no arguments on this, Dollar Bill was sponsored by a Bank and Silk Spectre I was in it for the modelling contracts not any great altruistic wish to better herself or humanity.
No real argument about Captain Metropolis just that it didn't mention to many gadgets in the original book. What you are claiming they have done to Mothman bites though and appears to be the biggest downer on the book. He was not scared of his creation but was driven to drink by the the US government during the McCarthy era and I believe is still alive though still sectioned during the time period of the original book.
Again no arguments with this The Comedian is a brute who only displayed any redeeming qualities when he was faced with something so vast that it shattered his world view. Remember him callously killing the mother of his unborn child during Vietnam due to her bottling him or his actions during the Keyne Riots he was only in it for his personal if sadistic enjoyment.
From what you have posted in most cases they actually got the characters right and the problem is there is not a character that would give you the sort of perspective that you are wanting with out creating a new character which would have been even worse. I agree that it didn't need to be made but now it has I think you are looking for things that can't be done with out butchering what were are told about these characters in the potted histories that Night Owl I gives us.
In your last paragraph, you bring up a valid point. None of the characters are good narrators. They're either too crazy or too normal to provide us with a valid point of view. So why do they even need to narrate the damn thing? It's lazy writing, plain and simple. If they relied on actual development and interactions, I think it could have been a good book. But instead of building it on the fundamentals of good writing, they decided to try and capitalize on being Watchmen even harder.
Hooded Justice's only line in the entire first issue, was a roar shortly before he threw a dude out a window. I don't remember him being that one dimensional.
They may have changed Mothman, since they mentioned that he broke pretty much all of his bones when he was testing his flight suit, so it was extremely painful to use it, and would probably kill him sooner or later. They start the reference to him by mentioning that he's already dead (splattered on the pavement), so uh...yeah.
Comedian's always been this bat****, sure. But we're talking about a whole new level. He started a barfight, so he could stop it (by killing a few people, and breaking a ridiculous number of bones), then try to shake down the bar owner, then he kills the barkeep for not complying. It's outright cartoonish, like, Bullseye in a particularly campy issue of Daredevil.
They're running a few spin-offs, so I'm gonna go read some scans of those, see if there's anything remotely redeeming.
In your last paragraph, you bring up a valid point. None of the characters are good narrators.They're either too crazy or too normal to provide us with a valid point of view. So why do they even need to narrate the damn thing? It's lazy writing, plain and simple. If they relied on actual development and interactions, I think it could have been a good book. But instead of building it on the fundamentals of good writing, they decided to try and capitalize on being Watchmen even harder.
And the characters in Watchmen are sane/normal??
Hooded Justice's only line in the entire first issue, was a roar shortly before he threw a dude out a window. I don't remember him being that one dimensional.
I am going to have to do a re-read but all I can remember about him from the original book is that he is the first of them and his first appearance is him beating up some muggers. A feat he repeats a couple of weeks later. The only other thing they really give him character wise is his refusal to comply with the Senate house committee's request/demand that he unmask himself to them and be subjected to scrutiny of his background. Even in his interactions with Silk Specter 1 I got the impression it was just her artfully draping herself over him and him trying to ignore her.
They may have changed Mothman, since they mentioned that he broke pretty much all of his bones when he was testing his flight suit, so it was extremely painful to use it, and would probably kill him sooner or later. They start the reference to him by mentioning that he's already dead (splattered on the pavement), so uh...yeah.
Least said about this the better as one of the best things about the original Watchman novel is whilst it made some changes to history upto 1985 to fit the characters in but it kept the broad strokes and showed how Masked Heroes would be dealt with in a semi-realistic manner once they get enough popularity/start organizing them selves on any large scale. Writing the McCarthy era stuff out of both Mothman and Hooded Justice do both a disservice.
Heck we see Mothman being dragged into a waiting ambulance during the title sequence of the Watchman film so some one majorly dropped the ball on that one.
Comedian's always been this bat****, sure. But we're talking about a whole new level. He started a barfight, so he could stop it (by killing a few people, and breaking a ridiculous number of bones), then try to shake down the bar owner, then he kills the barkeep for not complying. It's outright cartoonish, like, Bullseye in a particularly campy issue of Daredevil.
They're running a few spin-offs, so I'm gonna go read some scans of those, see if there's anything remotely redeeming.
Again I am going to have to do a re-read of the book but Night Owl 1 very heavily hints that the Comedian ships himself off to the Pacific Warzone one jump ahead of the Law or someone else that wants to deal with him legally or otherwise. True this might be colored by the fact that Night Owl 1 does not like the Comedian by the time he is writing his memoirs but it does seem to fit with what we know the Comedian has done.
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Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and start slitting throats.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
The original Watchmen, written by the legendary Alan Moore, is regarded as one of, if not the greatest graphic novel of all time, and by far the largest achievement in the history of comics. It was dark, and implemented unique storytelling structure. The themes were moral, psychological, and touched on the paranoia, insanity and megalomania of nations, and individuals who would call themselves "Superheroes." A masterpiece on an unrivaled level, and the most critically acclaimed Graphic Novel ever. Unfortunately, it's success helped spark the comic's crash of the 90s, with many comic writers seeking to emulate the darkness of Watchmen, including the extreme graphic violence, and sexual scenes. Many (almost all, actually) of those comics failed to handle it with the taste and maturity of watchmen, to the detriment of the artform. DC also exploited Alan Moore to a great extent, allowing them to release the (decent) Watchmen Movie without his approval, and now, exploit his intellectual property with a prequel series; Before Watchmen.
The first issue is now out, and my fears were well founded. It bites. The writing either reaches much too far, or doesn't reach far enough. The opening monologue is excessive, and lacks context in the actual issue (though those familiar with Watchmen would know what it's about). The issue serves only to introduce the reader to the cast: the Minutemen (the original superheroes in the Watchmen 'verse). It's narrated by the first Nite Owl- a rather unfortunate decision, I must say.
The issue is that it's characters have typical superhero personas. Nite Owl is brave, noble, and strong, like Batman minus the darkness. There's a holocaust survivor who carries that memory with her to fight injustice. There's a crazy, punisher-esque brute who doesn't seem to have a personality (much less a soul) yet. There's two characters who are superheroes for the money. There's an ex-marine/military consultant who uses his wealth to fight crime with elaborate gadgets. There's also one interesting character, who is overwhelmed by the fear and pain of his creation (a glider suit), pushing him to abuse painkillers and alcohol. But he's dead by the start of the story, so it doesn't even matter (he only got a page dedicated to him). We also get the Comedian (who died at the start of the Original Watchmen), but he seems more an immature caricature of the Comedian we saw in Watchmen. Rather than being a twisted individual who at least tries to do good, despite his brutal, barbaric nature, he's just a kid with no morals, who justifies his extortion by calling himself a superhero.
What it lacks is the perspective Watchmen had. The original had Rorschach, who provided an insane, twisted view on the world that was so paranoid and holier-than-thou, it served as a critique on superheroes and their fandom. It had Doctor Manhattan, who literally showed us the world of watchmen through the eyes of a god. It had Nite Owl II, who provided a cowardly, nervous, tired, human, outlook on the world.
As sort of a slap-in-the-face, they don't even leave the tale of the Crimson Corsair alone, including a 3 page bit of the in-comic comic.
The art's okay, if it's any consolation, though it shifts between classic pulp, and emulating that of the original.
Join the Poetry Running Contest!
Okay, let's be clear about one thing: the Watchmen characters are not Alan Moore's intellectual property. They are and have been DC's from the beginning. This company ownership of writers' creations is absolutely standard for DC and Marvel. And yes, Moore's intense disillusionment with this system led him to make the move into creator-owned comics and swear he'd never work for DC again (an oath he later went back on, due to complicated circumstances). But regardless of the lack of respect or artistic taste shown by DC making adaptations and expansions of Watchmen, legally they are in the clear.
Also, no hagiography of Alan Moore would be complete without mentioning that the man is literally insane.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Thats why they call it "property", so if you contract to be paid to make it for somebody else, then you've SOLD your property.
Personally I appreciate and recognize the influence of Alan Moore... But the reality is that I don't "love" anything he's written. I just "like" it.
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As for "before watchmen", is this just a blatant attempt to produce more IP that can readily be converted into cinema? Especially since so many of DC's IPs are either very uncinematic (Flash movie? Aquaman? Martian Manhunter? Ugh) or just generic (Nightwing? Powergurl? Hmmmm original costume). Even wonder woman seems difficult... In tone.
(1) Well, with the success of Captain America, the WW-II period superhero movie is at least a genre with which the audience will be familiar.
(2) and with the outrageous success of the Avengers, the ensemble superhero team movie is very, very easy to get greenlit. I fear we will potentially get a glut of these.
Well, Wonder Woman is obviously workable: Lynda Carter did it for years. Drop the camp sensibilities from that show and from Xena: Warrior Princess, squash the two together, and you've got the basics of a modern Wonder Woman flick.
I could also see a Flash movie happening. Lots of potential for cool bullet-time-type action scenes. It'd be tonally lighter, though, and that may not be what studios are looking for.
There's also Green Arrow, though they're actually taking the CW-series route with him.
And DC doesn't need to give up on Green Lantern, either. Marvel didn't give up on the Hulk, and Eric Bana's film bombed way worse than Ryan Reynolds'.
And finally, as the nuclear option, there's Sandman. If they could get that right, it might be one of the greatest movies of all time.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
It's more like the books became a money grab after the movie made the Watchmen graphic novel super popular, more so than it was before. Any decent movie does the same for the comic books, even a mediocre performer like Watchmen movie. I rememeber my eleven copies of amazing spiderman 129 shot through the roof when the punisher movie came out, even though the movie sucked and did poorly.
Don't see how you can make the Flash's powers anything other than a bit campy. Realistic tone won't work because his power is so ridiculously useful that audience constantly asks, "why doesn he just..." in most confrontations. Superspeed seems to be reasonably balanced until you actually put it into play. It's a useless power if you make him fast as a fast car... But it's ridiculously overpowered if you make him fast enough to create cyclones with his wake and become invisible to the naked eye. It's just a difficult power to balance, so the only way to balance the power is by having it conveniently vary to serve the plot. It's even ridiculous to portray it on film because it looks like you're speeding up the film and going for comedy ( cue "yackety sax" ). It's a problem even CGI can't solve. It's like a combo deck in MtG... non-interactive. movie needs a tone that says... "don't ask"
Making Flash a bit player in a larger movie (like JLA) works, since less screen time to make you start asking obvious questions.
Wonder woman with Lynda Carter was not played straight. It was cheesy bordering on campy (the costumes they showed with Adriana Palicki were threatening to do the same). Xena likewise was tongue in cheek as well. I believe WW can be done straight, but it's difficult to do well, since the oriinal wonder woman and her uniform, etc. seems culturally... Outdated... You have to drop the invisible plane and the gold uniform. Stick to the God/Goddess from Amazon island and make them super liberated modern sensibility to play it straight... Then it might work by taking the Captain America route and making it a timeless fish out of water tale when she comes to America and things are nowhere near as equal... Give her some throwaway lines that makes it clear she doesn't look down on stand by your man Suzy homemaker, and give her some comments about men she sees so that the ultra-conservatives know she is safely "hetero" enough for them to take their kids to.
I agree Sandman could be great... But it would require vision, genius, conviction, and courage to bring that to the screen. Sandman might work better as a series.
A movie would absolutely fail, Sandman requires a TV series with at least 2 seasons to stay faithful to the comics. Whereas Watchmen could get away with a movie because it was short enough, Sandman is a long series with an array of characters and plots that you just can't squeeze into a 2 hour movie.
But a Flash movie is going to be lighter in tone no matter what. You just cannot get a The Dark Knight out of it and stay at all true to the character. Raimi Spider-Man level is about as dark as I can see it getting.
They zigzagged between goofy and straight. That was sort of my point.
Recently, especially since the "New 52" reboot, they've really been playing up the mythical side of Wonder Woman. Gods and cosmological crises and Zeus-bastards by the boatload. Hence my Xena comments.
Oh, and being an Amazon warrior, she kind of kills people sometimes. So there's that.
That's why they call them "adaptations".
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Not disagreeing with anything other than the idea that Lynda Carter Wonder Woman was played straight... I don't think it ever came across to me as serious. It wasn't Adam West Batman level campy... but it was tonally barely better than Greatest American Hero goofy.
I think a 2 hour Sandman adaptation will come off utterly generic, and fail to capture any of the nuance of what made Sandman great. The problem is that just explaining the premise of Sandman in a way that doesn't make it seem like some generic mystical crap, would either require a ton of boring exposition... or take a lot of time and storytelling. A feature length movie is just too short in my opinion.
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On the topic of main narrators, I agree Night Owl doesn't make me feel all that great about wanting to read it. Frankly, they needed a stronger pastiche, and probably in a way preferably female that goes from insane to sane to be inverted of the original.
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Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
Who else could be the voice of the group. Whilst Hooded Justice was the first to put on the Mask and Captain Metropolis might have been the impetus for the group to form Night Owl was portrayed at least to me as the glue that held it together.
Yep that would be Hooded Justice done fairly well, he always came across as just being the mask with not actual personality. Nite Owl was idealistic and they have actually given the Silhouette a bit more background than being a lesbian that didn't like Child Pornography.
Again no arguments on this, Dollar Bill was sponsored by a Bank and Silk Spectre I was in it for the modelling contracts not any great altruistic wish to better herself or humanity.
No real argument about Captain Metropolis just that it didn't mention to many gadgets in the original book. What you are claiming they have done to Mothman bites though and appears to be the biggest downer on the book. He was not scared of his creation but was driven to drink by the the US government during the McCarthy era and I believe is still alive though still sectioned during the time period of the original book.
Again no arguments with this The Comedian is a brute who only displayed any redeeming qualities when he was faced with something so vast that it shattered his world view. Remember him callously killing the mother of his unborn child during Vietnam due to her bottling him or his actions during the Keyne Riots he was only in it for his personal if sadistic enjoyment.
From what you have posted in most cases they actually got the characters right and the problem is there is not a character that would give you the sort of perspective that you are wanting with out creating a new character which would have been even worse. I agree that it didn't need to be made but now it has I think you are looking for things that can't be done with out butchering what were are told about these characters in the potted histories that Night Owl I gives us.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
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I will give you this much, Alan Moore is bat**** insane, and most of his comics are haphazard, disturbing works which can best be described as surrealist fetish pornography. But a few analysts point this out, he's British, and European Intellectual Property laws are a lot different than in the states. Alan Moore went into the deal young, and assuming that it would be under the laws he was familiar with. He was wrong.
In your last paragraph, you bring up a valid point. None of the characters are good narrators. They're either too crazy or too normal to provide us with a valid point of view. So why do they even need to narrate the damn thing? It's lazy writing, plain and simple. If they relied on actual development and interactions, I think it could have been a good book. But instead of building it on the fundamentals of good writing, they decided to try and capitalize on being Watchmen even harder.
Hooded Justice's only line in the entire first issue, was a roar shortly before he threw a dude out a window. I don't remember him being that one dimensional.
They may have changed Mothman, since they mentioned that he broke pretty much all of his bones when he was testing his flight suit, so it was extremely painful to use it, and would probably kill him sooner or later. They start the reference to him by mentioning that he's already dead (splattered on the pavement), so uh...yeah.
Comedian's always been this bat****, sure. But we're talking about a whole new level. He started a barfight, so he could stop it (by killing a few people, and breaking a ridiculous number of bones), then try to shake down the bar owner, then he kills the barkeep for not complying. It's outright cartoonish, like, Bullseye in a particularly campy issue of Daredevil.
They're running a few spin-offs, so I'm gonna go read some scans of those, see if there's anything remotely redeeming.
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And the characters in Watchmen are sane/normal??
I am going to have to do a re-read but all I can remember about him from the original book is that he is the first of them and his first appearance is him beating up some muggers. A feat he repeats a couple of weeks later. The only other thing they really give him character wise is his refusal to comply with the Senate house committee's request/demand that he unmask himself to them and be subjected to scrutiny of his background. Even in his interactions with Silk Specter 1 I got the impression it was just her artfully draping herself over him and him trying to ignore her.
Least said about this the better as one of the best things about the original Watchman novel is whilst it made some changes to history upto 1985 to fit the characters in but it kept the broad strokes and showed how Masked Heroes would be dealt with in a semi-realistic manner once they get enough popularity/start organizing them selves on any large scale. Writing the McCarthy era stuff out of both Mothman and Hooded Justice do both a disservice.
Heck we see Mothman being dragged into a waiting ambulance during the title sequence of the Watchman film so some one majorly dropped the ball on that one.
Again I am going to have to do a re-read of the book but Night Owl 1 very heavily hints that the Comedian ships himself off to the Pacific Warzone one jump ahead of the Law or someone else that wants to deal with him legally or otherwise. True this might be colored by the fact that Night Owl 1 does not like the Comedian by the time he is writing his memoirs but it does seem to fit with what we know the Comedian has done.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
The Crafters' Rules Guru