I'd say it's a difference in design style, and I think you got the cause and effect backwards. I suspect LoL has watered-down abilities because LoL design philosophy is not fond of strong crowd control, and the nukes were turned up to compensate. There seems to be more emphasis on the different speeds, ranges, and behaviors of damaging abilities, leading to more positional play and the zoning game. Certainly laning against a Zyra is wayyy different than laning against a LeBlanc, even though they're both high-AP nukey mages, because their damage output comes at you in very different ways.
From my understanding, the idea of stuns that lock you down for long periods of time are simply not fun. Riot feels that having a player pressing buttons to spam more spells with limited CC is more fun than having a stronger focus on utility since it gives the player a more clearly active role. I can see why people prefer this style, so I am not saying that LoL is a bad game, nor am I saying that DotA is the be all, end all of this genre, but I certainly think Icefrog/Valve have done a better job overall.
We could go back and forth comparing heroes and items builds until we get blue in the faces, but the bottom line is that the design focus and its application (gameplay) of DotA, to me, is more interesting, involving, and lasting than LoL is. I'm not going to try to convince anyone that I didn't have fun in my 400+ games of LoL (I'm lowballing here), I have just found DotA to be a more exciting and rewarding game.
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A lot of the people in this thread seem to be bubbling over in the arguments.
Matter of fact is, LoL is being built and formed so that in can be watched. Riot wants to take over with League, so they're building it to be an entertaining spectator sport that looks fun, so that even mediocre players will then log on, buy a new champ or skin or rune page and try to replicate that awesome play they saw the pros doing on Twitch. The reason people like League of Legends more than DOTA is because it is in the process of being changed into one of the biggest cash cows the world has ever seen. It was built to make people like it, and they do. It's exciting, it's fast-paced, pros make lots of cash off it, it's got some nice visuals that aren't hard on the eyes like DOTA is, the bright colors naturally amp up viewers. They have tons of big name sponsors for their teams at this point, and all your friends are playing it, so you should to.
Moving past the very obvious point that I felt needed to be said, I've played LoL since right after it left Beta. I love League of Legends. Lots of changes have happened, I've probably played 4000~ games. I consistently watch competitive matches. I'm not even in platinum yet. LoL has a very deep mechanical skill ceiling, and I find that interesting. DOTA is cool in a lot of ways. The champions all feel very different, and do very different things. You have a lot of freedom. But that puts a large burden on you to know what you should be doing all the time, and it can vary from game to game. Combined with the large dearth of knowledge looming over your head, even greater than League's or other MOBAs I've played like Smite, HON, or Demigod, this feels like a larger barrier to entry than other MOBAs. It also feels very slow paced when everyone knows what they're doing. Playmaking with twitch mechanics, snowballs, and the tough fought comebacks that ensue, have been criticized in this thread, but they're some of the reasons I love League.
I will say that in some 5 or so years now, the community has changed a lot. I remember seeing Pendragon, Veigar the Horrible, Phreak, and even the occasional Tryndamere posts on the forums for some awesome community stuff that was going on. We still have some really awesome people in the community, but now it gets drowned out a bit by the dregs that inevitably eek in when you have a player base this large. The game is less complex than DOTA as well, I don't think you can argue that. But complexity creep is a thing that DOTA has to worry about. Adding more heroes with unique abilities will become a problem. And complexity isn't always a good thing. Simple gameplay executed well is very appealing, and the way the game has changed over 5~ years is very interesting. Some people in here have been toting DOTA's balance, but the rise and fall of champions in a metagame is a usual thing for competitive games, and if you don't have a metagame with tiers of picks, then your high level players aren't working hard enough to break the meta. NA didn't really understand how important objectives were until teams like Gambit and Korean teams like Najin Black Sword came in and instilled in the pros here the idea that kills should always lead to objectives. Because of that some champions who aren't able to secure objectives well have fallen out of favor at points. Take Garen, in solo queue his kill potential is high when played correctly. He also farms well. He isn't picked because he offers nothing to sieges, or monster control, and his teamfight presence is dependent on how fed he got in lane.
I'm rambling, so I'll stop for now but please reply with any thoughts. I'd like to hear some more arguments.
Yea I hate to say it because I don't watch a huge amount of or know as much about DotA, but from what I do see it seems like the competitive scene is pretty amateur compared to LoL's (or some of LoL's scenes) in terms of developing the high-level, coordinated and strategic understanding of the game that only professional organized play can give. But it is understandable for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is the higher emphasis on picks/counterpicks and certain planning that can pretty much make that pointless.
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Yea I hate to say it because I don't watch a huge amount of or know as much about DotA, but from what I do see it seems like the competitive scene is pretty amateur compared to LoL's (or some of LoL's scenes) in terms of developing the high-level, coordinated and strategic understanding of the game that only professional organized play can give. But it is understandable for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is the higher emphasis on picks/counterpicks and certain planning that can pretty much make that pointless.
O.o
You should really watch more competitive DotA. The drafting phase is huge.
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Yea I hate to say it because I don't watch a huge amount of or know as much about DotA, but from what I do see it seems like the competitive scene is pretty amateur compared to LoL's (or some of LoL's scenes) in terms of developing the high-level, coordinated and strategic understanding of the game that only professional organized play can give. But it is understandable for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is the higher emphasis on picks/counterpicks and certain planning that can pretty much make that pointless.
O.o
You should really watch more competitive DotA. The drafting phase is huge.
I don't think you understand what I'm saying, because I know that. Though that last sentence was ambiguously phrased. I'm saying in DotA, it seems very easy to pretty much supercede deep strategy by just outpicking and letting your star players loose.
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I don't think you understand what I'm saying, because I know that. Though that last sentence was ambiguously phrased. I'm saying in DotA, it seems very easy to pretty much supercede deep strategy by just outpicking and letting your star players loose.
LOL. With this, you've lost ALL of your credibility. The dota competitive scene has had almost a decade to develop before lol was a thing. LoL will never have the depth of coordination and teamwork that dota has competitively - even a cursory view of last years international will show you that.
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I don't think you understand what I'm saying, because I know that. Though that last sentence was ambiguously phrased. I'm saying in DotA, it seems very easy to pretty much supercede deep strategy by just outpicking and letting your star players loose.
While it's true that a game can be extremely lopsided due to poor drafting, saying the presence of an important draft detracts from the skill-cap in game is a little quick to judge, don't you think? All I can suggest is that you watch more DotA.
"If you're Havengul problems I feel bad for you son, I got 99 problems and a Lich ain't one." - FSM
"In a world where money talks, silence is horrifying."
Yea I hate to say it because I don't watch a huge amount of or know as much about DotA, but from what I do see it seems like the competitive scene is pretty amateur compared to LoL's (or some of LoL's scenes) in terms of developing the high-level, coordinated and strategic understanding of the game that only professional organized play can give. But it is understandable for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is the higher emphasis on picks/counterpicks and certain planning that can pretty much make that pointless.
O.o
You should really watch more competitive DotA. The drafting phase is huge.
I don't think you understand what I'm saying, because I know that. Though that last sentence was ambiguously phrased. I'm saying in DotA, it seems very easy to pretty much supercede deep strategy by just outpicking and letting your star players loose.
How does outdrafting an opponent supercede "deep strategy"? That's usually considered a very important part of strategy. That's like saying "you don't need strategy since you can just play better than your opponent." I have no idea what you are trying to say.
While it's true that a game can be extremely lopsided due to poor drafting, saying the presence of an important draft detracts from the skill-cap in game is a little quick to judge, don't you think? All I can suggest is that you watch more DotA, because this simply not as true as you think.
That would be quick to judge, but thankfully it's not what I'm saying. I'm saying where the top teams are at, not the cap. Plus the draft was just one part, another part for example being an individual's huge play has a bit more impact in DotA than in LoL.
How does outdrafting an opponent supercede "deep strategy"? That's usually considered a very important part of strategy. That's like saying "you don't need strategy since you can just play better than your opponent." I have no idea what you are trying to say.
It's obviously a facet of strategy, but not the kind of strategy I'm talking about, in terms of the optimal way to play the game inside the game down the very fine details. Like when I watch DotA, even the very top-tier teams when playing each other seem much more likely than in LoL to have the game decided by say a star player running away with a lead or a team with a draft advantage and not seeming as though they need super-detailed plans as the game goes on. I will again admit that I'm definitely more attuned to LoL strategy and casters in both games are generally very bad about that kind of thing, so I may be missing it more in DotA. Frankly though, I don't think counterpicks is very deep strategy in any game, so that's kind of where I was going with that wording.
As for Doku, yea that comment cements that I'm done with him. Go from talking about how much time the game has had to saying LoL will never catch up? Nah.
What are examples of fine details that you see teams use in LoL that aren't used in DotA?
There was a game today that involved the "star player" feeding and playing terribly for most of the game. Arteezy is known for snowballing games but his teamates played well and were able to make up for his mistakes. EG vs Alliance game 2 of the winner bracket semifinals. This game also demonstrates how important item choice and warding are.
Counterpicks aren't really the hard counters people think of. It's much more team composition and countering a strategy, rather than X Hero beats Y Hero. Sure Obsidian Destroyer vs Queen of Pain may be a one sided lane matchup, but good roaming supports can allow the QoP to win that lane and even if QoP loses her lane, the ODs team needs to have a strong strategy and team composition to close out the game.
While it's true that a game can be extremely lopsided due to poor drafting, saying the presence of an important draft detracts from the skill-cap in game is a little quick to judge, don't you think? All I can suggest is that you watch more DotA, because this simply not as true as you think.
That would be quick to judge, but thankfully it's not what I'm saying. I'm saying where the top teams are at, not the cap. Plus the draft was just one part, another part for example being an individual's huge play has a bit more impact in DotA than in LoL.
The thing is that this is why snowballing is less prevalent in DotA. With less variance and fewer "big plays" in the mid-late game you end up with more unstoppable snowballs. It's much easier to snowball when the other team has less ability to make individual huge plays. One of the key points I've been making is that LoL is "decided" at an earlier point in the game than DotA because individuals have less impact and therefore turnarounds are less frequent.
Honestly, although I said above how I only play LOL I have watched some amount of video of both. From an amateur standpoint, I think LoL is visually more pleasing to watch (via twitch players or Esport events).
The "depth" argument is really like American Baseball's AL vs NL. Do you like the concept of a DH? Do you think the pitcher having to bat is tougher and more complex...or a 9th hitter in the order? Why do some strategies work in the AL and not necessarily the NL (and vice versa). The general "it's a MOBA that's polished and well-developed" is understood and from either fanboy camp...agreed upon. These are polished games. But the minutia and technicalities of either game come down to preference -- and BOTH (for argument's sake) work. Some people want over the top abilities. Some want faster more combo-y type games. At the end of the day we're looking at really cool characters who are jacked and/or have fantastic breasts nuke each others with swords, beams of light, and faerie dust.
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
That would be quick to judge, but thankfully it's not what I'm saying. I'm saying where the top teams are at, not the cap. Plus the draft was just one part, another part for example being an individual's huge play has a bit more impact in DotA than in LoL.
Skill-cap was poor diction on my part. But now I'm even less sure what it is you're trying say. Are you saying that DotA isn't as deep as LoL because, at the top level, the game rewards team selection more than actual play?
decided by say a star player running away with a lead or a team with a draft advantage and not seeming as though they need super-detailed plans as the game goes on.
That's called a 1 core lineup, and traditionally it has been very popular in DotA. However, within the past couple of years, that has changed a lot as Icefrog/Valve seem to favor making the game more action oriented in the mid game. Running a 1 core these days is extremely risky, and it comes down a lot more to the people supporting the 1 player rather than the player himself. Teams tend to run 2-3 core these days, depending on the team.
Drafting is part of the game. Getting severely outdrafted means you will probably lose the game. Kind of like how in Magic, some matchups are nearly unwinnable. However, that doesn't happen very often at the pro level to such an extent that the game is already decided any more so than it is in LoL. Think of it like this: a team draft is a plan, and the gameplay is the execution of that plan.
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"In a world where money talks, silence is horrifying."
That would be quick to judge, but thankfully it's not what I'm saying. I'm saying where the top teams are at, not the cap. Plus the draft was just one part, another part for example being an individual's huge play has a bit more impact in DotA than in LoL.
Skill-cap was poor diction on my part. But now I'm even less sure what it is you're trying say. Are you saying that DotA isn't as deep as LoL because, at the top level, the game rewards team selection more than actual play?
I would say that the gameplay itself, the thing that players see is less deep yes. LoL has more interactions at a faster pace in general than DOTA does. There are less kinds of interactions, but as far as spectating is concerned that's probably a positive. Like auras, team compositions winning games is usually more of a hidden factor, at least compared to individual flashy play, which is what draws a lot of people. I wont say DOTA 2 is worse than LoL, but LoL has quite a few legs up on in that make it more popular for good reason. And the implication that time allows you to perfect a metagame would indicate that the metagame itself is stale. This is somewhat a reply to Doku, but is also something to keep in mind in general. If DOTA's metagame evolves as much as LoL's does, which I am not at liberty to say as while I am quite aware of DOTA's mechanical functions, its high level play is something I have not been able to donate as much time to, then the metagame should shift regularly and wins should exchange hands as certain teams pick up currently powerful builds faster than others. If all champions have been equal for years, then that is equivalent to a stale metagame. And I think that a shifting metagame is better than a perfectly balanced one to be honest.
decided by say a star player running away with a lead or a team with a draft advantage and not seeming as though they need super-detailed plans as the game goes on.
That's called a 1 core lineup, and traditionally it has been very popular in DotA. However, within the past couple of years, that has changed a lot as Icefrog/Valve seem to favor making the game more action oriented in the mid game. Running a 1 core these days is extremely risky, and it comes down a lot more to the people supporting the 1 player rather than the player himself. Teams tend to run 2-3 core these days, depending on the team.
Drafting is part of the game. Getting severely outdrafted means you will probably lose the game. Kind of like how in Magic, some matchups are nearly unwinnable. However, that doesn't happen very often at the pro level to such an extent that the game is already decided any more so than it is in LoL. Think of it like this: a team draft is a plan, and the gameplay is the execution of that plan.
Like I said earlier, picking and counterpicking comes down to a lot of hidden power, that also comes with the burden of knowledge of knowing both laning and teamplay matchups against your counterparts for all the unique 108 champions. While the draft phase of DOTA is very deep, it may be a bit much for the casual player to take in. I will invest more time in research into the DOTA pro scene, as I am a bit uninformed, at least compared to my League pro scene knowledge, but it basically boils down to the fact that more people enjoy competitive League because of how it's catered towards being watchable.
I would say that the gameplay itself, the thing that players see is less deep yes.
What the players see and what is on the screen are almost never the same thing when considering spectators, both for League and for DotA. It's like comparing Basketball to Hockey; there is skill involved in both games, but it's easier to see when someone is doing something well in Basketball than it is in Hockey, because, as we can both readily tell, the former is designed more as a spectator sport than the latter. And LoL and DotA are the same way, I will probably never argue that DotA is a good spectator sport. But this has nothing to do with the game's depth.
If all champions have been equal for years, then that is equivalent to a stale metagame. And I think that a shifting metagame is better than a perfectly balanced one to be honest.
They haven't (it's against the design philosophy to make heroes equal). DotA has been updated and patched for years, and a lot has changed in the recent past. When you have ~108 unique decisions which all have more decisions following them and 10 of them are drafted in a ban/pick/ban/pick format, the meta is probably anything but stale. A DotA meta is a lot closer to a Legacy meta: it's dependent on who's there, what they prefer to play, and how they deal with certain strategies. You'll notice that teams respect ban a lot in DotA.
"If you're Havengul problems I feel bad for you son, I got 99 problems and a Lich ain't one." - FSM
"In a world where money talks, silence is horrifying."
I'd recommend the TI3 grandfinals to anyone wanting to see good, exciting, high-level DotA. The first 2 games are fairly one-sided but games 3-5 are all very good games.
What are examples of fine details that you see teams use in LoL that aren't used in DotA?
There was a game today that involved the "star player" feeding and playing terribly for most of the game. Arteezy is known for snowballing games but his teamates played well and were able to make up for his mistakes. EG vs Alliance game 2 of the winner bracket semifinals. This game also demonstrates how important item choice and warding are.
Counterpicks aren't really the hard counters people think of. It's much more team composition and countering a strategy, rather than X Hero beats Y Hero. Sure Obsidian Destroyer vs Queen of Pain may be a one sided lane matchup, but good roaming supports can allow the QoP to win that lane and even if QoP loses her lane, the ODs team needs to have a strong strategy and team composition to close out the game.
Uhhh... the first example that comes to mind is, in LoL (especially the current meta) each of at least like 7 of the more shallow turrets are different in some big, some subtle ways. And after very seemingly small things happen, there are specific decisions that a competitive team has to make VERY QUICKLY about where to push/defend next, like whether they want to go for bottom turrets that are lower armor in s4 and also protect the most valuable inhib (farthest from baron). An example of such an influencing factor is not being able to freeze a lane after it has been pushed (which you won't be able to predict until very soon before it happens in-game because, in this case, the enemy team's play dictates it). As to counterpicks, yea I'm aware.
That would be quick to judge, but thankfully it's not what I'm saying. I'm saying where the top teams are at, not the cap. Plus the draft was just one part, another part for example being an individual's huge play has a bit more impact in DotA than in LoL.
Skill-cap was poor diction on my part. But now I'm even less sure what it is you're trying say. Are you saying that DotA isn't as deep as LoL because, at the top level, the game rewards team selection more than actual play?
decided by say a star player running away with a lead or a team with a draft advantage and not seeming as though they need super-detailed plans as the game goes on.
That's called a 1 core lineup, and traditionally it has been very popular in DotA. However, within the past couple of years, that has changed a lot as Icefrog/Valve seem to favor making the game more action oriented in the mid game. Running a 1 core these days is extremely risky, and it comes down a lot more to the people supporting the 1 player rather than the player himself. Teams tend to run 2-3 core these days, depending on the team.
Drafting is part of the game. Getting severely outdrafted means you will probably lose the game. Kind of like how in Magic, some matchups are nearly unwinnable. However, that doesn't happen very often at the pro level to such an extent that the game is already decided any more so than it is in LoL. Think of it like this: a team draft is a plan, and the gameplay is the execution of that plan.
I'm trying to say it seems to me that the very top teams of LoL have a better understanding of an aspect of the game's finer strategy - evolving objectives. And then I said this might be partially because stuff like drafting in DotA is often much more significant and able to make such things less significant, because it's a different game. The implication being that such things exist in DotA but are insignificant enough to not be as big a focus yet or maybe ever.
To clarify, I believe this is the primary thing that distinguishes the very top-tier LoL teams right now, and not at all the top-tier DotA ones from what I've seen. It's obviously not the biggest factor in all or most LoL games and I'm not saying it doesn't exist in DotA - in fact to at least some extent it very obviously does as lane control and differences between towers exist - but that it doesn't look like something the competitive scene focuses on or thinks as deeply about in general.
I'm trying to say it seems to me that the very top teams of LoL have a better understanding of an aspect of the game's finer strategy - evolving objectives. And then I said this might be partially because stuff like drafting in DotA is often much more significant and able to make such things less significant, because it's a different game. The implication being that such things exist in DotA but are insignificant enough to not be as big a focus yet or maybe ever.
To clarify, I believe this is the primary thing that distinguishes the very top-tier LoL teams right now, and not at all the top-tier DotA ones from what I've seen. It's obviously not the biggest factor in all or most LoL games and I'm not saying it doesn't exist in DotA - in fact to at least some extent it very obviously does as lane control and differences between towers exist - but that it doesn't look like something the competitive scene focuses on or thinks as deeply about in general.
This is, as you admitted earlier, simply a lack of knowledge on your part.
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I don't think you can even start caring about draft strategy until you understand simple decision making such as when to push and where to push. There isn't a draft strong enough that people could win without knowing those concepts. You can't get to making a strategy until you understand the basics that are used in nearly every strategy.
What does freezing a lane mean in LoL? In Dota, it refers to static farming, but that's easier after a lane is pushed, rather than harder.
Edit: Google says it means the same thing, so what are you trying to say in that sentence?
They're the same thing, they just have different ways of being done. DotA has significantly more methods of freezing than League does, since you can deny, pull jungle camps, or aggro the creeps behind the tower.
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Tons of flashy things are happening. Apparently there is some great depth and metagame going on, but I have no idea what it is.
I've watched all of the champion spotlights for dota II guys on youtube and watched the last 2(?) invitationals. Still no idea whats going on.
It doesn't matter at the end of the day. Both are solid games. Both are played at an extremely high skill level.
The argument that league is "casual" or whatever is fairly clueless. Its like calling soccer a worse sport than basketball because it has less arbitrary rules and strategies. And if its so easy, then join CLG. We need a new toplaner. Go make your riches.
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From my understanding, the idea of stuns that lock you down for long periods of time are simply not fun. Riot feels that having a player pressing buttons to spam more spells with limited CC is more fun than having a stronger focus on utility since it gives the player a more clearly active role. I can see why people prefer this style, so I am not saying that LoL is a bad game, nor am I saying that DotA is the be all, end all of this genre, but I certainly think Icefrog/Valve have done a better job overall.
We could go back and forth comparing heroes and items builds until we get blue in the faces, but the bottom line is that the design focus and its application (gameplay) of DotA, to me, is more interesting, involving, and lasting than LoL is. I'm not going to try to convince anyone that I didn't have fun in my 400+ games of LoL (I'm lowballing here), I have just found DotA to be a more exciting and rewarding game.
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Matter of fact is, LoL is being built and formed so that in can be watched. Riot wants to take over with League, so they're building it to be an entertaining spectator sport that looks fun, so that even mediocre players will then log on, buy a new champ or skin or rune page and try to replicate that awesome play they saw the pros doing on Twitch. The reason people like League of Legends more than DOTA is because it is in the process of being changed into one of the biggest cash cows the world has ever seen. It was built to make people like it, and they do. It's exciting, it's fast-paced, pros make lots of cash off it, it's got some nice visuals that aren't hard on the eyes like DOTA is, the bright colors naturally amp up viewers. They have tons of big name sponsors for their teams at this point, and all your friends are playing it, so you should to.
Moving past the very obvious point that I felt needed to be said, I've played LoL since right after it left Beta. I love League of Legends. Lots of changes have happened, I've probably played 4000~ games. I consistently watch competitive matches. I'm not even in platinum yet. LoL has a very deep mechanical skill ceiling, and I find that interesting. DOTA is cool in a lot of ways. The champions all feel very different, and do very different things. You have a lot of freedom. But that puts a large burden on you to know what you should be doing all the time, and it can vary from game to game. Combined with the large dearth of knowledge looming over your head, even greater than League's or other MOBAs I've played like Smite, HON, or Demigod, this feels like a larger barrier to entry than other MOBAs. It also feels very slow paced when everyone knows what they're doing. Playmaking with twitch mechanics, snowballs, and the tough fought comebacks that ensue, have been criticized in this thread, but they're some of the reasons I love League.
I will say that in some 5 or so years now, the community has changed a lot. I remember seeing Pendragon, Veigar the Horrible, Phreak, and even the occasional Tryndamere posts on the forums for some awesome community stuff that was going on. We still have some really awesome people in the community, but now it gets drowned out a bit by the dregs that inevitably eek in when you have a player base this large. The game is less complex than DOTA as well, I don't think you can argue that. But complexity creep is a thing that DOTA has to worry about. Adding more heroes with unique abilities will become a problem. And complexity isn't always a good thing. Simple gameplay executed well is very appealing, and the way the game has changed over 5~ years is very interesting. Some people in here have been toting DOTA's balance, but the rise and fall of champions in a metagame is a usual thing for competitive games, and if you don't have a metagame with tiers of picks, then your high level players aren't working hard enough to break the meta. NA didn't really understand how important objectives were until teams like Gambit and Korean teams like Najin Black Sword came in and instilled in the pros here the idea that kills should always lead to objectives. Because of that some champions who aren't able to secure objectives well have fallen out of favor at points. Take Garen, in solo queue his kill potential is high when played correctly. He also farms well. He isn't picked because he offers nothing to sieges, or monster control, and his teamfight presence is dependent on how fed he got in lane.
I'm rambling, so I'll stop for now but please reply with any thoughts. I'd like to hear some more arguments.
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O.o
You should really watch more competitive DotA. The drafting phase is huge.
"In a world where money talks, silence is horrifying."
Ashcoat Bear of Limited
LOL. With this, you've lost ALL of your credibility. The dota competitive scene has had almost a decade to develop before lol was a thing. LoL will never have the depth of coordination and teamwork that dota has competitively - even a cursory view of last years international will show you that.
G MGC
WB Teysa Tokens
BR Wortsnort
UG 23.5-No Edric
URG Noncombo Animar
GUB Damia Stax
WBR Alesha Hatebear Recursion
WBR Daddy Tariel
UBR [Je]love-a Your Deck
GWU Almost Critterless Enchantress
WUB Sydri+Artifacts=WUB
WURG Glint-Eye Combo
While it's true that a game can be extremely lopsided due to poor drafting, saying the presence of an important draft detracts from the skill-cap in game is a little quick to judge, don't you think? All I can suggest is that you watch more DotA.
"In a world where money talks, silence is horrifying."
Ashcoat Bear of Limited
How does outdrafting an opponent supercede "deep strategy"? That's usually considered a very important part of strategy. That's like saying "you don't need strategy since you can just play better than your opponent." I have no idea what you are trying to say.
As for Doku, yea that comment cements that I'm done with him. Go from talking about how much time the game has had to saying LoL will never catch up? Nah.
There was a game today that involved the "star player" feeding and playing terribly for most of the game. Arteezy is known for snowballing games but his teamates played well and were able to make up for his mistakes. EG vs Alliance game 2 of the winner bracket semifinals. This game also demonstrates how important item choice and warding are.
Counterpicks aren't really the hard counters people think of. It's much more team composition and countering a strategy, rather than X Hero beats Y Hero. Sure Obsidian Destroyer vs Queen of Pain may be a one sided lane matchup, but good roaming supports can allow the QoP to win that lane and even if QoP loses her lane, the ODs team needs to have a strong strategy and team composition to close out the game.
The thing is that this is why snowballing is less prevalent in DotA. With less variance and fewer "big plays" in the mid-late game you end up with more unstoppable snowballs. It's much easier to snowball when the other team has less ability to make individual huge plays. One of the key points I've been making is that LoL is "decided" at an earlier point in the game than DotA because individuals have less impact and therefore turnarounds are less frequent.
The "depth" argument is really like American Baseball's AL vs NL. Do you like the concept of a DH? Do you think the pitcher having to bat is tougher and more complex...or a 9th hitter in the order? Why do some strategies work in the AL and not necessarily the NL (and vice versa). The general "it's a MOBA that's polished and well-developed" is understood and from either fanboy camp...agreed upon. These are polished games. But the minutia and technicalities of either game come down to preference -- and BOTH (for argument's sake) work. Some people want over the top abilities. Some want faster more combo-y type games. At the end of the day we're looking at really cool characters who are jacked and/or have fantastic breasts nuke each others with swords, beams of light, and faerie dust.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
Skill-cap was poor diction on my part. But now I'm even less sure what it is you're trying say. Are you saying that DotA isn't as deep as LoL because, at the top level, the game rewards team selection more than actual play?
That's called a 1 core lineup, and traditionally it has been very popular in DotA. However, within the past couple of years, that has changed a lot as Icefrog/Valve seem to favor making the game more action oriented in the mid game. Running a 1 core these days is extremely risky, and it comes down a lot more to the people supporting the 1 player rather than the player himself. Teams tend to run 2-3 core these days, depending on the team.
Drafting is part of the game. Getting severely outdrafted means you will probably lose the game. Kind of like how in Magic, some matchups are nearly unwinnable. However, that doesn't happen very often at the pro level to such an extent that the game is already decided any more so than it is in LoL. Think of it like this: a team draft is a plan, and the gameplay is the execution of that plan.
"In a world where money talks, silence is horrifying."
Ashcoat Bear of Limited
I would say that the gameplay itself, the thing that players see is less deep yes. LoL has more interactions at a faster pace in general than DOTA does. There are less kinds of interactions, but as far as spectating is concerned that's probably a positive. Like auras, team compositions winning games is usually more of a hidden factor, at least compared to individual flashy play, which is what draws a lot of people. I wont say DOTA 2 is worse than LoL, but LoL has quite a few legs up on in that make it more popular for good reason. And the implication that time allows you to perfect a metagame would indicate that the metagame itself is stale. This is somewhat a reply to Doku, but is also something to keep in mind in general. If DOTA's metagame evolves as much as LoL's does, which I am not at liberty to say as while I am quite aware of DOTA's mechanical functions, its high level play is something I have not been able to donate as much time to, then the metagame should shift regularly and wins should exchange hands as certain teams pick up currently powerful builds faster than others. If all champions have been equal for years, then that is equivalent to a stale metagame. And I think that a shifting metagame is better than a perfectly balanced one to be honest.
Like I said earlier, picking and counterpicking comes down to a lot of hidden power, that also comes with the burden of knowledge of knowing both laning and teamplay matchups against your counterparts for all the unique 108 champions. While the draft phase of DOTA is very deep, it may be a bit much for the casual player to take in. I will invest more time in research into the DOTA pro scene, as I am a bit uninformed, at least compared to my League pro scene knowledge, but it basically boils down to the fact that more people enjoy competitive League because of how it's catered towards being watchable.
My EDH Decks!
BUGDamia, Combo-Control QueenBUG
RGWort, the RampmotherRG
WWWKemba, Voltron ExtraordinaireWWW
UBDralnu, Pure ControlUB
URHail to the DracogeniusUR
What the players see and what is on the screen are almost never the same thing when considering spectators, both for League and for DotA. It's like comparing Basketball to Hockey; there is skill involved in both games, but it's easier to see when someone is doing something well in Basketball than it is in Hockey, because, as we can both readily tell, the former is designed more as a spectator sport than the latter. And LoL and DotA are the same way, I will probably never argue that DotA is a good spectator sport. But this has nothing to do with the game's depth.
They haven't (it's against the design philosophy to make heroes equal). DotA has been updated and patched for years, and a lot has changed in the recent past. When you have ~108 unique decisions which all have more decisions following them and 10 of them are drafted in a ban/pick/ban/pick format, the meta is probably anything but stale. A DotA meta is a lot closer to a Legacy meta: it's dependent on who's there, what they prefer to play, and how they deal with certain strategies. You'll notice that teams respect ban a lot in DotA.
"In a world where money talks, silence is horrifying."
Ashcoat Bear of Limited
To clarify, I believe this is the primary thing that distinguishes the very top-tier LoL teams right now, and not at all the top-tier DotA ones from what I've seen. It's obviously not the biggest factor in all or most LoL games and I'm not saying it doesn't exist in DotA - in fact to at least some extent it very obviously does as lane control and differences between towers exist - but that it doesn't look like something the competitive scene focuses on or thinks as deeply about in general.
This is, as you admitted earlier, simply a lack of knowledge on your part.
"In a world where money talks, silence is horrifying."
Ashcoat Bear of Limited
What does freezing a lane mean in LoL? In Dota, it refers to static farming, but that's easier after a lane is pushed, rather than harder.
Edit: Google says it means the same thing, so what are you trying to say in that sentence?
"In a world where money talks, silence is horrifying."
Ashcoat Bear of Limited
Tons of flashy things are happening. Apparently there is some great depth and metagame going on, but I have no idea what it is.
I've watched all of the champion spotlights for dota II guys on youtube and watched the last 2(?) invitationals. Still no idea whats going on.
It doesn't matter at the end of the day. Both are solid games. Both are played at an extremely high skill level.
The argument that league is "casual" or whatever is fairly clueless. Its like calling soccer a worse sport than basketball because it has less arbitrary rules and strategies. And if its so easy, then join CLG. We need a new toplaner. Go make your riches.