They're the same thing, they just have different ways of being done. DotA has significantly more methods of freezing than League does, since you can deny, pull jungle camps, or aggro the creeps behind the tower.
Thats nice, but I don't think anyone here is arguing that Dota isn't more complicated than League. The argument is centered on whether that matters.
They're the same thing, they just have different ways of being done. DotA has significantly more methods of freezing than League does, since you can deny, pull jungle camps, or aggro the creeps behind the tower.
Thats nice, but I don't think anyone here is arguing that Dota isn't more complicated than League. The argument is centered on whether that matters.
Atheist God presumably doesn't play LoL much since he doesn't know what lane freezing is, and Feathas admits he doesn't have much knowledge of DotA. I was talking to both of them.
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They're the same thing, they just have different ways of being done. DotA has significantly more methods of freezing than League does, since you can deny, pull jungle camps, or aggro the creeps behind the tower.
Thats nice, but I don't think anyone here is arguing that Dota isn't more complicated than League. The argument is centered on whether that matters.
Atheist God presumably doesn't play LoL much since he doesn't know what lane freezing is, and Feathas admits he doesn't have much knowledge of DotA. I was talking to both of them.
I thought I knew what lane freezing was, but it made no sense in the context of Feathas' post.
This is, as you admitted earlier, simply a lack of knowledge on your part.
Fair enough.
Quote from AtheistGod »
What does freezing a lane mean in LoL? In Dota, it refers to static farming, but that's easier after a lane is pushed, rather than harder.
Edit: Google says it means the same thing, so what are you trying to say in that sentence?
They're the exact same. I meant after the other team pushes.
It's flat-out impossible to do in LoL if the enemy team doesn't let you, because you can't manipulate your own creeps, so I mean if they take the time to end their push properly and not let you freeze, it isn't an option and (were you planning on freezing) you'll have to adapt.
They're the same thing, they just have different ways of being done. DotA has significantly more methods of freezing than League does, since you can deny, pull jungle camps, or aggro the creeps behind the tower.
Thats nice, but I don't think anyone here is arguing that Dota isn't more complicated than League. The argument is centered on whether that matters.
Well I've been arguing that it's insignificantly more complicated when considering how complicated both are, which is close.
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Dota has denying, lol doesn't, therefore its more complicated. You've argued its an insignificant level of complexity. I recall you, or others, arguing that the extra complexity doesn't make it better. The side and secret shops as well, more complex, but better? Ehh.
@Freezing. you let a big wave of enemy creeps build up so that their dps kills your creeps faster. Then you CS at a rate so that you keep this big wave alive forever while culling part of it as each new wave arrives. This can be prevented by just pushing all the way to tower, which has enough damage to just kill the wave and get it pushing back the other way, but if someone isn't careful then its not too difficult to set up. You might sacrafice a couple CS to get it started, but its not hard. In some ways, from a skill perspective, the lack of denying and other options to manipulate lanes makes freezing a lane significantly more of a skill in lol than dota.
It's obviously a facet of strategy, but not the kind of strategy I'm talking about, in terms of the optimal way to play the game inside the game down the very fine details. Like when I watch DotA, even the very top-tier teams when playing each other seem much more likely than in LoL to have the game decided by say a star player running away with a lead or a team with a draft advantage and not seeming as though they need super-detailed plans as the game goes on.
You don't just run away with a lead in high-level games. You need a lot of help to get there, be it people denying the enemy counterpicks so they can't get their items early enough, or stacking jungle camps for you to farm, or just getting good pressure on so you have more time to get big. It involves your team getting auras and protecting you from certain spells and warding for you. Warding, mind you, is much more limited in DotA than it is in LoL.
This is exactly the problem: You assume there is no finer strategy because carries can carry hard, but all the while you ignore all the strategy that goes towards allowing that carry to carry. This is like saying Chess has no strategy because you can just capture the enemy King, or that Go has no strategy because you can surround enemy pieces.
Quote from Kurthnaga »
If all champions have been equal for years, then that is equivalent to a stale metagame. And I think that a shifting metagame is better than a perfectly balanced one to be honest.
The question is much more about DotA being Legacy and LoL being Standard. The metagames do change in legacy, but it's usually a slower process, because there's a lot of established archetypes that you need to deal with. Compare this with frequent rotations of Standard that cause constant fluctuation. I mean, does anyone happen to remember the Triforce buffs? Right before a certain important tournament? I would say the key point here is threat diversity: There are more viable angles of attack towards a upcoming strategy in Legacy/DotA than there are in LoL/Standard. Often these attacks can be brutal in the former two, be it Outhouse Decorator or Wasteland/Crucible.
I should also note that evolutionarily stable strategies exist in LoL as well. Tanky bruiser in toplane has been one for ages now, and squishy-magic-dealer in mid. Usually there are candidates that cement themselves as the best option for the role for each given patch pretty quickly, and then precede over others until nerfs fix it. Gragas and Shyvana are two recent examples, Renekton is another. Personally I see the ability for the metagame to change without enforced change as a good indicator of depth, but that might just be me.
Tons of flashy things are happening. Apparently there is some great depth and metagame going on, but I have no idea what it is.
I've watched all of the champion spotlights for dota II guys on youtube and watched the last 2(?) invitationals. Still no idea whats going on.
Get a team of five people and play for a while. I don't think it's possible to understand DotA well without having played it yourself.
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Get a team of five people and play for a while. I don't think it's possible to understand DotA well without having played it yourself.
Agreed, i used to play the Original DotA back in the 0.n patches and it was a game that you needed to get yourself deeply into to really understand.
It took me forever to understand why the starting builds made sense, why and how to look at the map, how to determine flow and all that, it also helped that i was playing with and against friends back then.
Then i stopped and moved to LoL, a lot of the skills i had made it easier to adapt and some skills where even lost due to the change in game style.
Going into DotA 2 however... i tried it, but at this point it wasnt offering anything i felt was a radical improvement (yes the new modes and stuff are cool and all but i cant really see them as improvements, refinements sure but not improvements), and stuff i have already taken for granted have to be relearned now and not in a fun way (an easily recognizable map/path/minimap for example).
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If all champions have been equal for years, then that is equivalent to a stale metagame. And I think that a shifting metagame is better than a perfectly balanced one to be honest.
The question is much more about DotA being Legacy and LoL being Standard. The metagames do change in legacy, but it's usually a slower process, because there's a lot of established archetypes that you need to deal with. Compare this with frequent rotations of Standard that cause constant fluctuation. I mean, does anyone happen to remember the Triforce buffs? Right before a certain important tournament? I would say the key point here is threat diversity: There are more viable angles of attack towards a upcoming strategy in Legacy/DotA than there are in LoL/Standard. Often these attacks can be brutal in the former two, be it Outhouse Decorator or Wasteland/Crucible.
I should also note that evolutionarily stable strategies exist in LoL as well. Tanky bruiser in toplane has been one for ages now, and squishy-magic-dealer in mid. Usually there are candidates that cement themselves as the best option for the role for each given patch pretty quickly, and then precede over others until nerfs fix it. Gragas and Shyvana are two recent examples, Renekton is another. Personally I see the ability for the metagame to change without enforced change as a good indicator of depth, but that might just be me.
I don't know how many different answers you have in DOTA for any given strategy, but I would like to point out that there are plenty of strong options in LoL that exist that never get discovered, or get discovered months after they are powerful enough to show up. It's not just about meta shifts, even with millions of experienced players trying new things, not every powerful strategy is discovered for every patch, particularly when the amount of high level team play going on in LoL is not that much compared to the development of the solo queue metagame.
I will also say that while those stable strategies exist to an extent, because of how much more items mean for defining a role in league and how many champions can fill the role you want from a mid or top champion in different capacities. Tops can be straight tanks, bruisers, assassins, fighters, or straight lane bullies like Teemo, Quinn, and Urgot. Mids can be the typical burst mages, siege clear, tanks, anti-mages, assassins, and supports.
DOTA is probably a deeper game than LoL. But to enjoy how deep a game it is you really need to get heavily into DOTA. League can be a pick up and play game for a lot of people. I'm sure some people have done so for DOTA as well, but to me it just seems the game necessarily takes up more of your time to get full enjoyment from it.
you don't just run away with a lead in high-level games. You need a lot of help to get there, be it people denying the enemy counterpicks so they can't get their items early enough, or stacking jungle camps for you to farm, or just getting good pressure on so you have more time to get big. It involves your team getting auras and protecting you from certain spells and warding for you. Warding, mind you, is much more limited in DotA than it is in LoL.
Please pay attention to the whole chain before responding. I know that. I'm saying that AFTER that point, certain aspects of strategy seem to me less important than in LoL. In other words yes, the two games have different aspects of depth and strategy and LoL isn't flat out less complex/deep/strategic in every way.
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LoL has games snowball out of control as well, and it actually happens more frequently and earlier into the game. You can't just say that DotA has less strategy after a team has a 20k gold lead than LoL has in a dead even game.
In some ways, from a skill perspective, the lack of denying and other options to manipulate lanes makes freezing a lane significantly more of a skill in lol than dota.
I get the impression you haven't played much DotA, so it'd be nice if you stopped trying to imply that one is more skill intensive than the other. For example, each side can only safely pull from their safe lane, and Radiant can only pull its offlane by going into the enemy jungle. Also, different does not necessarily mean more skill intensive.
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"If you're Havengul problems I feel bad for you son, I got 99 problems and a Lich ain't one." - FSM
"In a world where money talks, silence is horrifying."
Your statement neither challenges my claim (less versatility in options means accomplishing the same feat with a weaker toolset neccesitates greater skill to accomplish the same goal) but, instead, gives simply your impression that I haven't played the game. Joy. I also did not say that lol takes more skill than dota, in general, but specified a specific instance where it most assuredly does. The logistics of where the lane pulling can happen at does not affect the skill required to complete it. Bot lane sentinel side is easy to pull from, top lane scourge side is easy to pull from. The act of pulling is to aggro the creep camp at the right moment, something that is a matter of memorization, and maybe tangoing a tree so line of sight isn't impeded. I have something like 5-6 years of playing Dota, all throughout my offtime in the military and then a couple of years afterwords. I didn't exactly keep track so I could throw around my experience in a debate on the internet. I'd say quiz me if this was an in person conversation, but such things are trivial on the internet. I'd go and try to find my old THR or Dotacash stats from back in the day, but again, I don't really need to prove anything to you. Lol and Dota are different games. They do different things better or worse than each other and have very different design philosophies. My participation in this thread has, mostly, been trying to disabuse certain dota players of misconceptions regarding lol. Perhaps you haven't played enough of lol? Because trying to keep a creep wave stationary is quite difficult to do while when I played dota, because I was able to deny creeps, it was not terribly difficult. Particularly after a tower has fallen. Its not like the enemy can just kill their own creeps by their base (unless its lich or enigma or w/e) because denying only happens when a creep is at low HP, just like you can only deny a champion when they are at low hp and the counter to someone keeping a lane perfectly frozen is to pull creeps into lane, but then that could be countered if a ward gets dropped the camp because of how sight range interacts with creep spawning which itself is just an artifact of the WC3 engine, but I digress. This additional level of complexity requires more knowledge, but it isn't particularly hard. Is it the right strategic call? Who can say, that requires game state analysis to figure out what the proper course of action actually is. The actual level of skill though to do any of the aforementions actions is low, particularly compared to the stuff one needs to do to keep a lane frozen in league.
As it is, you're speaking of pulling merely from a technical point of view, so if we're going to do that, then we have to do the same for LoL. And technically speaking, freezing a lane in LoL is not complicated at all: you kill the minions at a rate such that the lane doesn't move. And if you wanted to pull or push the lane to a certain area, you would allow the equilibrium to tip for a bit. In this respect, freezing a lane in LoL is much the same as freezing a lane in DotA: each one requires knowledge of certain mechanics within the game, and once said knowledge is possessed by the player, it is not difficult to execute without considering interaction from other players.
If you do want to consider the enemy's response to freezing and pulling in DotA, then surely you know about warding camps, prematurely denying (it goes both ways, and you have to juggle lane control with experience and gold denial), pulling waves out of the lane, and proxying (Axe in particular).
"If you're Havengul problems I feel bad for you son, I got 99 problems and a Lich ain't one." - FSM
"In a world where money talks, silence is horrifying."
And that doesn't actually address the argument that I actually made. You are also making a rhetorical mistake. One merely has to kill the minions at a rate such that the lane doesn't move. This is, for a variety of reasons, hard to pull off. By contrast, pulling minions into lane is trivially easy in the spots where its commonly done. When my clan was figuring it out, since this was before there were guides absolutely everywhere, we just loaded up the map with nobody but us on it and practiced for awhile and wrote down the precise time to pull a specific kind of camp. It was great.
And I mentioned warding camps already, so yes I'm aware of it. I've played both games extensively and lane control is easier to do in Dota as a result of their being more options as to how it gets done and the simplicity of some of those options
League can be a pick up and play game for a lot of people.
This isn't true.
I think this thread is pointless but I'm just skimming to point out blantant misinformation at this point. DotA guys are gonna love DotA and League guys are gonna love league. They are both MobAs and honestly if you've put in the time to learn one it's silly to learn the other.
LoL has games snowball out of control as well, and it actually happens more frequently and earlier into the game.
This actually isn't true anymore. It's really really hard to snowball games now since the last season change.
How many games in the current season has the first team to get 2k gold ahead lost? This seasons is more passive, but that isn't reducing the amount of snowballing.
Games are way more swingy and way less snowbally. The gold dain doesn't stack up nearly as quickly, games have been going much longer cause it's harder to close them out. It's kind of become a game of "who doesn't have the worst player" instead of "who has the best one(s)". It's to the point where challenger/diamond guys have trouble carrying lower elo games(plat/low diamond)
Games going longer doesn't mean that much if I can tell you the winner at the 15 minute mark. LoL doesn't have the level of comeback mechanics that would allow a losing team to win, they just lose slower.
Games going longer doesn't mean that much if I can tell you the winner at the 15 minute mark. LoL doesn't have the level of comeback mechanics that would allow a losing team to win, they just lose slower.
I'd agree with Tsunami (what you're saying in this quote is more true of late S3 than S4), but it's more about team comps than explicit comeback mechanics. Closing games out in LoL is actually considerably bottlenecked by getting the inhib turrets/inhib - the equivalent of taking a rax is actually almost impossible until quite quite late in the game, and even then it's nigh impossible if your comp lacks certain sieging tools. Lots of games, pro or casual, where you get the 6 other turrets down and then take over 15 minutes to get another.
The thing is that slow games ARE swingy in LoL. If, as in this situation it often gets, you try to take an inhib turret at like 40+ minutes and you **** up and 3+ people die? You lose the game in that instant thanks to death timers. It's probably more the lack of buyback than anything else I can think of that really cements this but there's also the fact that games, especially competitive ones right now, very often go so long that gold leads stop mattering entirely. Your composition's late game capabilities are really important right now.
As a guy who watches about 80% of the korean scene competitive games and understands them at a reasonable level, I can honestly say that very, very few of them right now feel decided more than ~5-10 minutes before they end - something like a tenth of them.
also yea, frankly, I don't get how people can say LoL is more of a "pick up and play game". you can do that with both games, and you'll be terrible at both games, it's really not any different. just more people DO pick up and play LoL because more people play it in the first place. Ask 90% of those casuals why they've played LoL for an extended period and they'll say it's because their friends do, and I'd be lying if I said that wasn't part of it for me too.
Thats nice, but I don't think anyone here is arguing that Dota isn't more complicated than League. The argument is centered on whether that matters.
Atheist God presumably doesn't play LoL much since he doesn't know what lane freezing is, and Feathas admits he doesn't have much knowledge of DotA. I was talking to both of them.
"In a world where money talks, silence is horrifying."
Ashcoat Bear of Limited
I thought I knew what lane freezing was, but it made no sense in the context of Feathas' post.
It's flat-out impossible to do in LoL if the enemy team doesn't let you, because you can't manipulate your own creeps, so I mean if they take the time to end their push properly and not let you freeze, it isn't an option and (were you planning on freezing) you'll have to adapt. Well I've been arguing that it's insignificantly more complicated when considering how complicated both are, which is close.
Dota has denying, lol doesn't, therefore its more complicated. You've argued its an insignificant level of complexity. I recall you, or others, arguing that the extra complexity doesn't make it better. The side and secret shops as well, more complex, but better? Ehh.
@Freezing. you let a big wave of enemy creeps build up so that their dps kills your creeps faster. Then you CS at a rate so that you keep this big wave alive forever while culling part of it as each new wave arrives. This can be prevented by just pushing all the way to tower, which has enough damage to just kill the wave and get it pushing back the other way, but if someone isn't careful then its not too difficult to set up. You might sacrafice a couple CS to get it started, but its not hard. In some ways, from a skill perspective, the lack of denying and other options to manipulate lanes makes freezing a lane significantly more of a skill in lol than dota.
You don't just run away with a lead in high-level games. You need a lot of help to get there, be it people denying the enemy counterpicks so they can't get their items early enough, or stacking jungle camps for you to farm, or just getting good pressure on so you have more time to get big. It involves your team getting auras and protecting you from certain spells and warding for you. Warding, mind you, is much more limited in DotA than it is in LoL.
This is exactly the problem: You assume there is no finer strategy because carries can carry hard, but all the while you ignore all the strategy that goes towards allowing that carry to carry. This is like saying Chess has no strategy because you can just capture the enemy King, or that Go has no strategy because you can surround enemy pieces.
The question is much more about DotA being Legacy and LoL being Standard. The metagames do change in legacy, but it's usually a slower process, because there's a lot of established archetypes that you need to deal with. Compare this with frequent rotations of Standard that cause constant fluctuation. I mean, does anyone happen to remember the Triforce buffs? Right before a certain important tournament? I would say the key point here is threat diversity: There are more viable angles of attack towards a upcoming strategy in Legacy/DotA than there are in LoL/Standard. Often these attacks can be brutal in the former two, be it Outhouse Decorator or Wasteland/Crucible.
I should also note that evolutionarily stable strategies exist in LoL as well. Tanky bruiser in toplane has been one for ages now, and squishy-magic-dealer in mid. Usually there are candidates that cement themselves as the best option for the role for each given patch pretty quickly, and then precede over others until nerfs fix it. Gragas and Shyvana are two recent examples, Renekton is another. Personally I see the ability for the metagame to change without enforced change as a good indicator of depth, but that might just be me.
Get a team of five people and play for a while. I don't think it's possible to understand DotA well without having played it yourself.
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.
Agreed, i used to play the Original DotA back in the 0.n patches and it was a game that you needed to get yourself deeply into to really understand.
It took me forever to understand why the starting builds made sense, why and how to look at the map, how to determine flow and all that, it also helped that i was playing with and against friends back then.
Then i stopped and moved to LoL, a lot of the skills i had made it easier to adapt and some skills where even lost due to the change in game style.
Going into DotA 2 however... i tried it, but at this point it wasnt offering anything i felt was a radical improvement (yes the new modes and stuff are cool and all but i cant really see them as improvements, refinements sure but not improvements), and stuff i have already taken for granted have to be relearned now and not in a fun way (an easily recognizable map/path/minimap for example).
I don't know how many different answers you have in DOTA for any given strategy, but I would like to point out that there are plenty of strong options in LoL that exist that never get discovered, or get discovered months after they are powerful enough to show up. It's not just about meta shifts, even with millions of experienced players trying new things, not every powerful strategy is discovered for every patch, particularly when the amount of high level team play going on in LoL is not that much compared to the development of the solo queue metagame.
I will also say that while those stable strategies exist to an extent, because of how much more items mean for defining a role in league and how many champions can fill the role you want from a mid or top champion in different capacities. Tops can be straight tanks, bruisers, assassins, fighters, or straight lane bullies like Teemo, Quinn, and Urgot. Mids can be the typical burst mages, siege clear, tanks, anti-mages, assassins, and supports.
DOTA is probably a deeper game than LoL. But to enjoy how deep a game it is you really need to get heavily into DOTA. League can be a pick up and play game for a lot of people. I'm sure some people have done so for DOTA as well, but to me it just seems the game necessarily takes up more of your time to get full enjoyment from it.
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I get the impression you haven't played much DotA, so it'd be nice if you stopped trying to imply that one is more skill intensive than the other. For example, each side can only safely pull from their safe lane, and Radiant can only pull its offlane by going into the enemy jungle. Also, different does not necessarily mean more skill intensive.
"In a world where money talks, silence is horrifying."
Ashcoat Bear of Limited
If you do want to consider the enemy's response to freezing and pulling in DotA, then surely you know about warding camps, prematurely denying (it goes both ways, and you have to juggle lane control with experience and gold denial), pulling waves out of the lane, and proxying (Axe in particular).
"In a world where money talks, silence is horrifying."
Ashcoat Bear of Limited
And I mentioned warding camps already, so yes I'm aware of it. I've played both games extensively and lane control is easier to do in Dota as a result of their being more options as to how it gets done and the simplicity of some of those options
This actually isn't true anymore. It's really really hard to snowball games now since the last season change.
This isn't true.
I think this thread is pointless but I'm just skimming to point out blantant misinformation at this point. DotA guys are gonna love DotA and League guys are gonna love league. They are both MobAs and honestly if you've put in the time to learn one it's silly to learn the other.
How many games in the current season has the first team to get 2k gold ahead lost? This seasons is more passive, but that isn't reducing the amount of snowballing.
The thing is that slow games ARE swingy in LoL. If, as in this situation it often gets, you try to take an inhib turret at like 40+ minutes and you **** up and 3+ people die? You lose the game in that instant thanks to death timers. It's probably more the lack of buyback than anything else I can think of that really cements this but there's also the fact that games, especially competitive ones right now, very often go so long that gold leads stop mattering entirely. Your composition's late game capabilities are really important right now.
As a guy who watches about 80% of the korean scene competitive games and understands them at a reasonable level, I can honestly say that very, very few of them right now feel decided more than ~5-10 minutes before they end - something like a tenth of them.
also yea, frankly, I don't get how people can say LoL is more of a "pick up and play game". you can do that with both games, and you'll be terrible at both games, it's really not any different. just more people DO pick up and play LoL because more people play it in the first place. Ask 90% of those casuals why they've played LoL for an extended period and they'll say it's because their friends do, and I'd be lying if I said that wasn't part of it for me too.