I absolutely hate the quill coat itm in terms of what it builds into. SotAG was a great item because it allowed diversity in itemization. You either go balls deep damage with elder lizard or solid tank stats with ancient golem. There isn't any point to getting this item for those junglers that would choose either because the tenacity was one of the main selling points. Bonus health and easy clear is cute and all and it allows for certain junglers to make a resurgence but they're just nerfing the current jungler set by doing that. If they wanted to diversify the jungler picks, they should've added quill coat as a separate item and added another item building from quill coat which the effects of the current SotAG
I agree that I dont really like the new SotAG, but the one bright side is it does help low damage/clear speed junglers like Taric and I would assume Leona as well that just want to build Tanky with little to no damage items anyways. I've noticed that it does hurt some junglers that had no clear speed problems before and is now much worse for things like Phoenix Udyr.
I absolutely hate the quill coat itm in terms of what it builds into. SotAG was a great item because it allowed diversity in itemization. You either go balls deep damage with elder lizard or solid tank stats with ancient golem. There isn't any point to getting this item for those junglers that would choose either because the tenacity was one of the main selling points. Bonus health and easy clear is cute and all and it allows for certain junglers to make a resurgence but they're just nerfing the current jungler set by doing that. If they wanted to diversify the jungler picks, they should've added quill coat as a separate item and added another item building from quill coat which the effects of the current SotAG
What you're arguing for is build diversity, not pick diversity (or even really role diversity, since in the end those who had a choice between sotel and sotag rarely played very differently aside from maybe Vi and Nocturne). Technically if Riot were able to balance sotag and sotel (and the other jungler items) this would achieve pick diversity better than what you're supporting, which simply favors junglers able to go utilize both. But that doesn't mean you're wrong that it'd be a better way to do things, although I'd rather have pick diversity than build diversity especially since I love(d) Maokai. Also I've learned not to trust Riot to be capable of balancing things like that (sotag and sotel) or even to try for long.
I'll miss being able to have both tenacity and tabi,
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On the plus side, sotag+randuins+sunfire/sv+bveil is a hilarious amount of hp. Have you gotten to lategame as a tank jungler against an AP-less comp yet? Sotag+randuins+sunfire+froheart+tabi is amazing.
What you're arguing for is build diversity, not pick diversity (or even really role diversity, since in the end those who had a choice between sotel and sotag rarely played very differently aside from maybe Vi and Nocturne). Technically if Riot were able to balance sotag and sotel (and the other jungler items) this would achieve pick diversity better than what you're supporting, which simply favors junglers able to go utilize both. But that doesn't mean you're wrong that it'd be a better way to do things, although I'd rather have pick diversity than build diversity especially since I love(d) Maokai. Also I've learned not to trust Riot to be capable of balancing things like that (sotag and sotel) or even to try for long.
Build diversity does indirectly affect pick diversity, people would be more hesitant to pick vi or noc or any SotEL junglers because it would be a huge tell to the other team about the comp. Before, if you picked those champs, it might be a tank version or it might be damage. There was that guess-the-build safety net but now that really doesn't exist anymore.
Ironically I've found an HP stacker that actually does worse with the new Ancient Golem. I tried Mundo last night with Ancient Golem and let me tell you the new regen passive is a big nerf to his jungling as even running spell vamp quints I had trouble sustaining myself in the jungle. It wasn't until I got a warmogs that I actually felt like I could farm camps without taking too much damage, but that was way too far in to the game to feel safe about doing that reliably. I actually had to stop ganking for a while as I just didn't have the sustain even with ult to both farm and gank without backing. I probably think he needs to grab a spirit stone for sustain before going into SotAG, but man I was not expecting this much of a problem just rushing Golem on him.
As I try more and more junglers with the new Golem most junglers that liked it before don't like it now. Quill Coat and new Golem seem made almost exclusively for Tanky Support Junglers and Sustained Health Stacking Bruisers like Volibear. I am sort of afraid to try it on Trundle or Tank J4 since you need an early damage item so you don't plummet in damage mid to late game, but until you get some bonus health you are sinking a lot of gold into a passive that isn't worth it.
I agree they need to bring back old Golem in some form as the two items for the most part are built for different champions.
I want to bleed somewhere so I will bleed here >.< Could Riot please do something about those ranked smurf accounts... something like authentication by credit card if you want to play rankeds... I am tired to play against these Challenger/Diamond level mathematic players.
And why am I punished so hard in rankeds... like 80% times I lose a ranked it is beacause all lanes are equally bad and low level players.. isn't there any kind of balancing system behind this game?
Why is it also everytime if enemy plays Aatrox or VOlibear top lane they have played 200 games with them.. and when my team is picking one.. it is like "lol second time =) ".
Jus like on last game.. our adc went afk and bot was lost.. our mid didn't care about warding and fed their jungle Shaco (which I even counter jungled with Xin Zhao without dying a single time) and our top laner picked Vladimir ( -.- ) against AN AATROX (?!?!?!? -.- -.- -.-) and fed Aatrox of course so hard that it was impossible to win anymore... he died 1vs1 first time at 3 min and it was obviously my fault because I was taking our own blue after taking theirs.
So, in a glance, Ziggs is nerfed (doesn't look like too much problem seeing that his damage numbers stay), Skarner gets further nerfed (gotta try him with his new kit first before commenting on this one), Jax is now less durable (does it matter?) and Essence Reaver item gets boosted (hurray for Ashe, Jinx and Jax, maybe?). Hmm.
So, in a glance, Ziggs is nerfed (doesn't look like too much problem seeing that his damage numbers stay), Skarner gets further nerfed (gotta try him with his new kit first before commenting on this one), Jax is now less durable (does it matter?) and Essence Reaver item gets boosted (hurray for Ashe, Jinx and Jax, maybe?). Hmm.
Ziggs movement speed nerf is pretty obnoxious, but not anything he didn't need. He's still amazing at wave-clear and gets to play safe the whole game, so it's not a big deal. Skarner's nerfs aren't a big deal, makes him slightly slower at clearing the jungle and cuts into his dueling potential, but they don't stop him from doing his job at all. Jax's durability nerf is needed, but probably not enough, honestly. He's still the gold standard for a late-game splitpusher from what I've seen.
Essence Reaver is still awful aside from on Jayce and maybe Urgot/Ez. If the changes on the PBE go through though, it should be a decent option for a lifesteal item. Might even be enough to bring back Blue Ezreal.
When you say 'further nerfed' talking about Skarner - he was freaking amazing / borderline op and he's still very, very strong. I know you're perceiving the latest rework as nerfs, but I urge you to play it. He was MASSIVELY buffed and he is now highly relevant to the game.
And yeah the new Essence Reaver changes things for a lot of guys. I'm not sure anybody wants Bloodthirster over that for a first item, though Bloodthirster is obviously a much stronger 5th item / full build item.
Blue ezreal is already back, but bork is so good that it'd take a lot for essence reaver to be worth it.
And yea people really really underrate post-3 item BT. It's a fantastic luxury item on at least the ADCs that love flat AD or dislike bork once you can afford to build an item with no crit, AS or pen.
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Wow. I just realized how bad GD is on Riots forum. In the Lucian nerf thread the op said Caits range should also be nerfed. Sometime later I pop into the thread and say "Cait is actually more safe than Lucian and more than any other adcs in general so should get nerfed because she had decent base stats, highest innate range in the game, a self knockback slow and snare that grants vision. There's a fine line between safe and being interactive. Cait is the later. Riot hates interactive champions so she should be nerfed." I get nothing but downvotes with no counter argument.
Wow. I just realized how bad GD is on Riots forum. In the Lucian nerf thread the op said Caits range should also be nerfed. Sometime later I pop into the thread and say "Cait is actually more safe than Lucian and more than any other adcs in general so should get nerfed because she had decent base stats, highest innate range in the game, a self knockback slow and snare that grants vision. There's a fine line between safe and being interactive. Cait is the later. Riot hates interactive champions so she should be nerfed." I get nothing but downvotes with no counter argument.
Cait is a safe ADC that can punish a lane and suffers mid/late for it. Her stats are on the low-end of the popular ad's. She has no self-buff to help her damage output aside from her headshot, and two of her skills aren't used in combat for damage at all, 3 if you count her ult most of the time. Her sole purpose is to push hard and fast, and to make laning phase hell for whoever she's against. If you can catch her though, she can't outduel many people that are equal in gold to her. I'd say she's almost the most balanced ADC in the game, as she has clear parts of the game where she is strong, and clear parts where she is weak.
Cait is a very popular pick, but she's toxic as hell. Like, really, she's Urgot/Yorick-in-their-primes toxic, and it seems like the ONLY reason not to eviscerate her is because of the pain of like 20% of the population losing their top adc pick. I don't know that she needs to lose range, but if not, she should at least pay the real price for having that kind of range - she should be easy to jump on and destroy earlier in the game.
Cait is a safe ADC that can punish a lane and suffers mid/late for it. Her stats are on the low-end of the popular ad's. She has no self-buff to help her damage output aside from her headshot, and two of her skills aren't used in combat for damage at all, 3 if you count her ult most of the time. Her sole purpose is to push hard and fast, and to make laning phase hell for whoever she's against. If you can catch her though, she can't outduel many people that are equal in gold to her. I'd say she's almost the most balanced ADC in the game, as she has clear parts of the game where she is strong, and clear parts where she is weak.
Her power curve is more complicated than you're making it sound. She's almost always the strongest laning ADC, though lower skill players don't have access to the downright toxic parts of her kit (maybe that's why it's not worth reworking her?), but she's one of the absolute worst midgame ADCs. Her actual late game is among the best, however, as A) one big item buy is worth much more dps than almost any steroids (excepting maybe Kog'Maw, Draven and Vayne for single target, Twitch for multi target), so having/lacking steroids isn't actually that big a deal for a truly endgame ADC, and B) late game dps for ADCs is almost always a test of simple uptime - that is, the ADC who will deal the most damage late in the game is the ADC who can shoot the most while kiting the least without being actually tracked down.
Long story short, she has one of the better late games among all ADCs because the steroids don't matter that much while her extreme late game safety matters a lot.
She's FAIR in the sense that her win rate is around average when you only consider the meta-relevant ADCs; she's broken as hell in that she's one of the least fun champions to play against in the entire game and she's also broken as hell in that she gates out something like half the ADC roster from being viable picks just by her own existence - if she were removed from the game, Marksman pick diversity would go up significantly.
Her base stats are barely worse than MF (40 fewer health, 3 fewer armor) who is immobile yet she has 100 more range than her and innate self peeling. Cait's health pool, armor and armor per level should be pretty low because of her range and has self peeling. Caits mid game is still better than Trists because she has AD ratios on her Q and R and she can siege towers better than other adcs during mid game.
But that's just it though, you will never catch her unless your jungler camps bot..against decent Caits anyway. There should be a limit on how safe a champion should be.
Cait has a Lee Sin power curve, just not as extreme. Her steroid is her range. But other than that she has a slightly above average mid game, but one of the worse late games for an ADC. The problem is people in general do not like to play against Lee Sin power curved champs like Cait and Renekton whose sole job is to win the laning phase. Unlike Mid game and Late game champs where you can be stronger then them by having more items and by beating them in lane, you will never have a noticeable gold difference at level 1 since everyone starts at approximately the same gold so they will always be stronger than you. There is little counterplay you can do other than endure their early game power. But at the same time they are necessary for the game as they prevent late game champs and hyper carries from taking over the game. This is why Riot is loathe to "nerf" these champs just cause of their early power spike, because they act as a barrier to entry (see the "Renekton Bar") and deter people from always picking hyper carries since they won't have to fear the early game. They are frustrating to play against, but they are supposed to be and the game is healthier for it.
@Yagami: You forget MF is a lane bully in a similar vain to Cait (just not as bad) who transitions to a late game high AOE damage ADC. So it would make sense for her base stats to be similar to Cait's and not have an escape (since she brings AOE instead). On Tristana, Cait has a decent mid game that gets worse the later the game goes, but Tristana has the ultimate weird power curve who transitions a somewhat strong early game to the worst mid game for an adc in the game to a long-range hyper carry. The whole point of Trist is to have the bad mid game.
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Try tenacity and boots of swiftness/mobility
Boost ganks without sacrificing tenacity
I agree that I dont really like the new SotAG, but the one bright side is it does help low damage/clear speed junglers like Taric and I would assume Leona as well that just want to build Tanky with little to no damage items anyways. I've noticed that it does hurt some junglers that had no clear speed problems before and is now much worse for things like Phoenix Udyr.
Yes. He works so well with the new SotAG. Build it and Warmogs and you are good to go.
Same with Cho'Gath. Make SotAG, Warmogs and get some ult stacks and you easily have 4K+ hp. Funny stuff.
I've been trying things on Cho like:
SotAG/RoA/Warmogs/Randuins/Banshee's Veil/Boots and end up usually around 7k HP.
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Build diversity does indirectly affect pick diversity, people would be more hesitant to pick vi or noc or any SotEL junglers because it would be a huge tell to the other team about the comp. Before, if you picked those champs, it might be a tank version or it might be damage. There was that guess-the-build safety net but now that really doesn't exist anymore.
As I try more and more junglers with the new Golem most junglers that liked it before don't like it now. Quill Coat and new Golem seem made almost exclusively for Tanky Support Junglers and Sustained Health Stacking Bruisers like Volibear. I am sort of afraid to try it on Trundle or Tank J4 since you need an early damage item so you don't plummet in damage mid to late game, but until you get some bonus health you are sinking a lot of gold into a passive that isn't worth it.
I agree they need to bring back old Golem in some form as the two items for the most part are built for different champions.
And why am I punished so hard in rankeds... like 80% times I lose a ranked it is beacause all lanes are equally bad and low level players.. isn't there any kind of balancing system behind this game?
Why is it also everytime if enemy plays Aatrox or VOlibear top lane they have played 200 games with them.. and when my team is picking one.. it is like "lol second time =) ".
Jus like on last game.. our adc went afk and bot was lost.. our mid didn't care about warding and fed their jungle Shaco (which I even counter jungled with Xin Zhao without dying a single time) and our top laner picked Vladimir ( -.- ) against AN AATROX (?!?!?!? -.- -.- -.-) and fed Aatrox of course so hard that it was impossible to win anymore... he died 1vs1 first time at 3 min and it was obviously my fault because I was taking our own blue after taking theirs.
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Ziggs movement speed nerf is pretty obnoxious, but not anything he didn't need. He's still amazing at wave-clear and gets to play safe the whole game, so it's not a big deal. Skarner's nerfs aren't a big deal, makes him slightly slower at clearing the jungle and cuts into his dueling potential, but they don't stop him from doing his job at all. Jax's durability nerf is needed, but probably not enough, honestly. He's still the gold standard for a late-game splitpusher from what I've seen.
Essence Reaver is still awful aside from on Jayce and maybe Urgot/Ez. If the changes on the PBE go through though, it should be a decent option for a lifesteal item. Might even be enough to bring back Blue Ezreal.
And yeah the new Essence Reaver changes things for a lot of guys. I'm not sure anybody wants Bloodthirster over that for a first item, though Bloodthirster is obviously a much stronger 5th item / full build item.
And yea people really really underrate post-3 item BT. It's a fantastic luxury item on at least the ADCs that love flat AD or dislike bork once you can afford to build an item with no crit, AS or pen.
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Cait is a safe ADC that can punish a lane and suffers mid/late for it. Her stats are on the low-end of the popular ad's. She has no self-buff to help her damage output aside from her headshot, and two of her skills aren't used in combat for damage at all, 3 if you count her ult most of the time. Her sole purpose is to push hard and fast, and to make laning phase hell for whoever she's against. If you can catch her though, she can't outduel many people that are equal in gold to her. I'd say she's almost the most balanced ADC in the game, as she has clear parts of the game where she is strong, and clear parts where she is weak.
Her power curve is more complicated than you're making it sound. She's almost always the strongest laning ADC, though lower skill players don't have access to the downright toxic parts of her kit (maybe that's why it's not worth reworking her?), but she's one of the absolute worst midgame ADCs. Her actual late game is among the best, however, as A) one big item buy is worth much more dps than almost any steroids (excepting maybe Kog'Maw, Draven and Vayne for single target, Twitch for multi target), so having/lacking steroids isn't actually that big a deal for a truly endgame ADC, and B) late game dps for ADCs is almost always a test of simple uptime - that is, the ADC who will deal the most damage late in the game is the ADC who can shoot the most while kiting the least without being actually tracked down.
Long story short, she has one of the better late games among all ADCs because the steroids don't matter that much while her extreme late game safety matters a lot.
She's FAIR in the sense that her win rate is around average when you only consider the meta-relevant ADCs; she's broken as hell in that she's one of the least fun champions to play against in the entire game and she's also broken as hell in that she gates out something like half the ADC roster from being viable picks just by her own existence - if she were removed from the game, Marksman pick diversity would go up significantly.
But that's just it though, you will never catch her unless your jungler camps bot..against decent Caits anyway. There should be a limit on how safe a champion should be.
BUG Dredge BUG]
WUBRG Storm WUBRG
UBR FaerieStalker UBR
EDH
Sygg, River Cutthroat (1vs1)
Maga, Traitor to Mortals (multiplayer)
@Yagami: You forget MF is a lane bully in a similar vain to Cait (just not as bad) who transitions to a late game high AOE damage ADC. So it would make sense for her base stats to be similar to Cait's and not have an escape (since she brings AOE instead). On Tristana, Cait has a decent mid game that gets worse the later the game goes, but Tristana has the ultimate weird power curve who transitions a somewhat strong early game to the worst mid game for an adc in the game to a long-range hyper carry. The whole point of Trist is to have the bad mid game.