It seems that this game is starting to stagnate where I live. The majority of players are either running MLB or DOtE. I get that crossrides are a thing now, but why such insanely powerful ones. I'll probably still play this game amongst my friends but the competitive scene is looking more like Yu-Gi-Oh. Very little diveristy in what decks are meta-worthy. Is this only happening at my LGS or is this true acroas the board?
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My Decks Standard Retired
Modern (G/W)RZooR(G/W) SRSkredRS
EDH (W/B)Teysa, Orzhov Scion (Token Control)(W/B) (R/G)Omnath, Locus of Rage (Elemental Rage)(R/G) (G/U)Kaseto, Orochi Archmage (Sneaky Snakes)(G/U)
I've managed to come across another LGS that seems to be more centered around playing Vanguard, and it seems pretty lively and diverse, but from what I gleamed there, everyone seems to talk the game pretty casually.
I have lost interest in the game for quite some time now, but I might try and dump off the cards I have there.
Over by the closest LGS to my house, we have about 5-6+ people (including myself) for Vanguard Tournaments almost every Friday Night and players still get promotional packs for entering for a $0 entry fee. In my meta RP Galahad's been topping alot including GP Spectral Duke and Angel Feather, although I did manage to tie for 2nd place a couple of times with GP Garmore which I plan on changing to Liberators once BT10 is released in English.
Over at a different LGS that I go to on Saturdays, Vanguard's kind of been dying out over there in favor of Yu-Gi-Oh! and the main decks I've seen played there were MLB, DoTE, Pale Moon Sarah, and a Dark Irregulars deck that's pretty good. I'm hoping Vanguard picks up there but I've been seeing alot of Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh!, MTG, and Kaijudo played there too. The player attendence I've been seeing for Kaijudo at that LGS is about the same as Vanguard is where I live.
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America Bless Christ Jesus
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
The shop that I go to has mostly Vanguard players (there is at least one MLB or DOtE player) with a small group of Magic players that I know by name. A few of these same Vanguard players also play(ed) YuGiOh. Quite a few of them are sharks who won't even let you sit down before asking for trades. Then they refuse to give you a fair deal on anything you want. There's another shop by my friend's place that has a better atmosphere, but it takes forever to get there from where. Vanguard crowd is a lot smaller but they are much more mature.
Hopefully I can finish my Great Daiyusha DP deck before the prices become obscene (even moreso than they are now).
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My Decks Standard Retired
Modern (G/W)RZooR(G/W) SRSkredRS
EDH (W/B)Teysa, Orzhov Scion (Token Control)(W/B) (R/G)Omnath, Locus of Rage (Elemental Rage)(R/G) (G/U)Kaseto, Orochi Archmage (Sneaky Snakes)(G/U)
I never got around to building Oracle Think Tank and I'm probably going to sell off my Angel Feathers. But I'm still going to get Dazzling Divas in July. I'm still only playing this game casually.
"A rich man thinks all other people are rich, and an intelligent man thinks all other people are similarly gifted. Both are always terribly shocked when they discover the truth of the world. You, my dear brother, are a pious man." - Strahd von Zarovich
Why would you make intro decks to a game so expensive? Was gonna give this a try, but I'm not spending $40 on two intro decks. Doesn't make sense as a business or marketing strategy either, if I buy two intro decks and its good at all I'm in for at least a hundred more dollars, super short sighted. Ill check it out when they have a real intro product.
Where are you going to that they're $20 each? Intro decks wherever I've seen em sold go for about £12.
I may be in error but GBP12 is approximately equals to USD20. The intro product is unfortunately expensive and when I started the game, I did so by buying whole decks from players. To their defence, the trial decks are somewhat equivalents of MtG's event decks (as opposed to the precon rubbish) with trial deck exclusive cards.
I am having somewhat the opposite problem with Vanguard where I play though -- for reference, I am currently in Asia. The English event attracts somewhere in the region of 40 players while the Japanese event attract just under 20 players. I will probably be popping by the shop on Saturday to see if the meta have changed drastically since I took a break for exams -- if I am lucky enough to grab a seat, at least.
Kagero & Narukami and the three paladin clans do make up a bulk of the decks there though soulless OTT, Luqier's Pale Moon and the Dimensional Police's crossride has been steadily rising as a novelty, especially for the English meta. That said, Spike Brothers took the shop's last tournament (5-round tournament). I do expect to see the newish Neo Nectar Musketeer and Sephiroth ride chain this week thanks to the novelty of it.
There has been a revival in soulless OTT in the Japanese meta thanks to the lifted restrictions on Silent Tom though Narukami (even with its banning) remain one of the stronger decks in the meta. Dark horses that randomly do well (in the Japanese meta) includes Tachikaze's Battlerex and of course, Bermuda's new Prism Labrador. Also in the Japanese meta, Royal Paladin has declined in popularity for a bit (with Majesty Lord Blaster being restricted and all) though some players have tested out the Jewel Knights build to mixed results. Speaking of Japanese novelties though, I expect to see Angel Feather's Celestials popping around, at least for these few weeks before the novelty settles (to be fair, Zerachiel is substantially easier to pilot than Metatron).
I may be in error but GBP12 is approximately equals to USD20. The intro product is unfortunately expensive and when I started the game, I did so by buying whole decks from players. To their defence, the trial decks are somewhat equivalents of MtG's event decks (as opposed to the precon rubbish) with trial deck exclusive cards..
18.55 USD, but I'd figure everything would be cheaper in America than UK anyways due to a difference in VAT and such, not that I know much about VAT or Economics.
It seems like alot of LGS's that host Official Vanguard Tournaments in North America are being forced to follow Bushiroad's Official Tournament Structure for the TCG being Best of 1 Double Elimination instead of Best 2 out of 3 Double Elimination/Swiss. Now before I go on and say that this is bad for the TCG overall competitively, I will say that I have played by Best of 1 Double Elimination and it wasn't THAT bad but it still would've been better off being Best of 2 though. Some LGS's might allow for Best of 2 Vanguard Tournaments however Bushiroad doesn't like that and they're starting to crackdown on this.
Bushiroad's Organized Play for Cardfight!! Vanguard is terrible, but what I don't get is how players from Japan and Singapore are used to the kind of mentality of enjoying Best of 1 matches the most when compared to players from North America such as myself who would want a chance to come back in the next game in Best of 2 when the TCG itself with the current Organized Play Structure makes the game more luck based competitively than it already is. If you get grade locked even once, miss your ride chain, or get a double crit at 3 damage under Best of 1 Double Elimination then you're more than likely going to get kicked out of the Tournament. How is that any fun? It's not.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
[COLOR=black][COLOR=blue]but what I don't get is how players from Japan and Singapore are used to the kind of mentality of enjoying Best of 1 matches the most when compared to players from North America such as myself who would want a chance to come back in the next game in Best of 2
I've noticed fighting game tournaments being run the same way (best of 1 with double elim). There might be some connection there.
While looking at some tournament rules for Weiβ Schwarz I noticed that the organizers seem very concerned with keeping match time under 30 minutes. There might be a connection there as well.
"A rich man thinks all other people are rich, and an intelligent man thinks all other people are similarly gifted. Both are always terribly shocked when they discover the truth of the world. You, my dear brother, are a pious man." - Strahd von Zarovich
However Pokemon TCG is Best of 1 Swiss with a Top Cut of Best of 2 in the Finals so there's no connection there. Vanguard probably has a Top Cut like in Pokemon with it being Best of 2 although I'm not sure If it's the same with Weiβ Schwarz as well. The source material is what really turned me away from Weiβ Schwarz, at least Score Entertainment got Anime/Manga TCG's done right.
In Kaijudo/Duel Masters it's Best of 2 Swiss which is one of the reasons why I like the way Wizards/Hasbro setup their Tournament Structure more consistently than Bushiroad has with Vanguard and Weiβ Schwarz. This just further proves that Asia has a different mentality of managing tournaments like this compared to North America where you have a much better chance.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
America Bless Christ Jesus
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
This is just a conjecture but I have a feeling that the preference for double elimination lies in the chance reliant nature of Weiß Schwarz and Vanguard (and probably Victory Spark) to begin with. WS and VG tend to be a lot more luck-based in that damage is almost never a certainty in both games (as damage is almost never a certainty with trigger and climax cards (for WS) and critical and heal triggers (for VG). I suspect that this randomness was intentionally built into these games to provide a good opportunity for newbies to randomly trounce veteran players. The double elimination method amplifies the chance-reliant nature of the rounds, allowing veteran players to be randomly booted off (though they should still win more games with their decks in their careers, theoretically).
True, this can be bad because it does not reward skill appropriately in favour of luck. On the other hand, the apparent intent is to help encourage casual players into the fold and discourage an overcompetitive scenario (is it worth spending X amount of money if you have a y% chance of losing a random trial deck?). A Swiss-run VG tournament will almost consistently have Narukami and Kagero (at least for the Japanese meta) in the top percentile weekly. Especially for WS, I would argue that the intent of these games (especially WS) was never designed to be competitive in the same way that Magic was designed to be competitive; I started WS purely because I liked a particular anime series but this is neither here nor there.
Incidentally, WS matches are often best of one for the simple reason that Weiß Schwarz games are really that long. One game can easily gobble up thirty minutes assume that players take reasonable amount of time to perform reasonable calculations; there are many instances where all that planning goes down into the drain anyway because of the random climax gods. It takes a bit longer for non-Japanese reading players, mind you, given that you will have to spend some time asking your opponent what card does what -- the English version of WS is still at its infancy and is available for a relatively small number of series only, at this point. A best of three format can be a nightmare with some matches taking up to one and a half hours while lucky / unlucky players who finished their matches in about 45 minutes sit on their hand while waiting for the next round to start.
I've noticed fighting game tournaments being run the same way (best of 1 with double elim). There might be some connection there.
Fighting games don't have a chance element, and can be bracketed so the top players don't knock each other out early. Seems more reasonable in that case.
True, this can be bad because it does not reward skill appropriately in favour of luck. On the other hand, the apparent intent is to help encourage casual players into the fold and discourage an overcompetitive scenario (is it worth spending X amount of money if you have a y% chance of losing a random trial deck?). A Swiss-run VG tournament will almost consistently have Narukami and Kagero (at least for the Japanese meta) in the top percentile weekly.
Considering that a single clan (GP) dominated the NA standings anyway even with Best of 1/Double Elim, it doesn't follow that Best of 2/Swiss would quash deck diversity or discourage casual players. A bad player can still dreamcrush a pro with random double crit using a trial deck, but that should be an uncommon scenario, not something to strive for!
If tournaments are run as Swiss: Bad players don't have to go home after an hour, and have a reasonable shot of being matched against people of their similar skill level. Good players can lose a game or two and still feel like they have a chance to be in it. More people hanging around the venue for longer means more people for the tournament organizer to sell cards, supplies, and food to. More games played means we have more meta-data (if such a thing is relevant) to shut up all the people who whine about Deck X being overpowered if in fact it is not. Seems like a win for everyone.
That's all fine and good. But I've never seen a single CFV game last more than 15 minutes.
Actually, it does happen, albeit infrequently. I have had matches drawn out for about 30 minutes with matches of Oracle, Genesis and Bermuda going against each other (especially the more draw intensive variants).
Considering that a single clan (GP) dominated the NA standings anyway even with Best of 1/Double Elim, it doesn't follow that Best of 2/Swiss would quash deck diversity or discourage casual players. A bad player can still dreamcrush a pro with random double crit using a trial deck, but that should be an uncommon scenario, not something to strive for!
Interesting, I was not aware that Gold Paladin was dominant in NA. Was this in the English or Japanese meta?
But back to the point, mind you, I am not claiming that double elimination is anwhere close to a perfect solution to this nor did I say that double crits are "something to strive for". I even went on to mention that veteran players should win more games in their careers (i.e. the long run). I would argue that if best of 1/double elimination resulted in a single clan dominated meta, it is likely that Swiss would make it a lot worse.
If tournaments are run as Swiss: Bad players don't have to go home after an hour, and have a reasonable shot of being matched against people of their similar skill level. Good players can lose a game or two and still feel like they have a chance to be in it. More people hanging around the venue for longer means more people for the tournament organizer to sell cards, supplies, and food to. More games played means we have more meta-data (if such a thing is relevant) to shut up all the people who whine about Deck X being overpowered if in fact it is not. Seems like a win for everyone.
I won't speak for the scene in NA (since I am not from NA) but from where I am playing, players that are knocked out don't usually "go home after an hour", so to speak. At larger events, the main event tend to be treated as a side event of sorts where knocked out players would simply wander off to mingle and play with some random strangers (saying "shikata ga nai" or something to that effect). Since the events tend to be run next to anime-related events (trust me, the organisers do get something out of this), winning is more of a bonus since it is sort of an open secret that Vanguard is an extremely luck based game with even the best decks going all "tsun" at the most critical moments and all "dere" at casual tables. I am not qualified to say that this is true of shop tournaments though since shop tournaments I join tend to be run in Best of 1/Swiss, anyway
I can accept the some players may take a more calculated approach towards the game but at the same time, I think it is worth pointing out that there are equally valid rationale for running the tournament differently, especially if the intent is different.
Interesting, I was not aware that Gold Paladin was dominant in NA. Was this in the English or Japanese meta?
Everything I say is about the English meta, as I live in the US. Some guy compiled the results of a bunch of pie charts from last year's Qualifier events here and concluded that GP was about 25% of the meta on average, with that % increasing in the top cut. (The Indonesia chart was particularly sad, with 50% GP, 30% Naru, and 20% "everything else".)
I won't speak for the scene in NA (since I am not from NA) but from where I am playing, players that are knocked out don't usually "go home after an hour", so to speak. At larger events, the main event tend to be treated as a side event of sorts where knocked out players would simply wander off to mingle and play with some random strangers (saying "shikata ga nai" or something to that effect). Since the events tend to be run next to anime-related events (trust me, the organisers do get something out of this), winning is more of a bonus since it is sort of an open secret that Vanguard is an extremely luck based game with even the best decks going all "tsun" at the most critical moments and all "dere" at casual tables.
Interesting. I have never been to an event (at least not one with a significant competitive aspect) at an anime convention, so I can't speak to whether people in NA stick around the M:TG area or wander off to other parts of the convention after they're mathematically eliminated. In events I've been to where the first prize is significantly more valuable than any prizes for side events (e.g. PTQs), people gradually drift out as they drop out of contention, so that by the time the top 8 cut occurs, the event hall is completely deserted aside from the judges, the players still in it, and people who are friends/sharing a car with them.
Then again, everything I've heard indicates that the general Japanese mindset (in CFV at least) is significantly less oriented around competing than the NA mindset. (Remind me, have decks other than DOTE/MLB been able to consistently place yet?)
Everything I say is about the English meta, as I live in the US. Some guy compiled the results of a bunch of pie charts from last year's Qualifier events here and concluded that GP was about 25% of the meta on average, with that % increasing in the top cut. (The Indonesia chart was particularly sad, with 50% GP, 30% Naru, and 20% "everything else".)
Interestingly, I was under the impression that regardless of locations, players do play with both the Japanese and English version of the game (i.e. TCG and OCG). Personally, I can't read a single Japanese character at all and I maintain two Japanese and one English decks.
I'd make a few conjectures on the link you sent me now though I admittedly started VG after that date. I would argue that the results would have been far worse if it was Swiss. While I did argue that the other clans would stand a higher chance of "striking the lottery", so to speak, under the 1 round-double elimination system, I would not go so far as to say that playing a meta clan would not increase your chances of winning.
For the record, I feel that the ratios are not that bad if you consider the MtG meta at certain points (Jund and Faeries anybody?)
Interesting. I have never been to an event (at least not one with a significant competitive aspect) at an anime convention, so I can't speak to whether people in NA stick around the M:TG area or wander off to other parts of the convention after they're mathematically eliminated. In events I've been to where the first prize is significantly more valuable than any prizes for side events (e.g. PTQs), people gradually drift out as they drop out of contention, so that by the time the top 8 cut occurs, the event hall is completely deserted aside from the judges, the players still in it, and people who are friends/sharing a car with them.
Given that players do have to take the trouble to go to the venue, I think most players try to make the most of their trip. Some will eventually "drift off", so to speak, but there is often no shortage of players that will be sticking around.
Of course, monetarily, the first prize is going to be worth significantly more than any prizes for side events but I think players tend to see the top prizes as "lottery prizes", so to speak and settle for the more realistic gains from the side events (and the social experiences too). That, and as mentioned, given that you came all the way to the venue, it makes little sense to go home just because you because got knocked out
Then again, everything I've heard indicates that the general Japanese mindset (in CFV at least) is significantly less oriented around competing than the NA mindset. (Remind me, have decks other than DOTE/MLB been able to consistently place yet?)
There are some good minor clan builds floating around which somehow get overlooked (just because no main characters in the anime plays them :rolleyes:) but due to the luck based nature of this game, I wouldn't say that they consistently place. For example, assume that there are two-three Sephiroth decks (NN) and ten MLB decks (RP) floating around. Even if Sephiroth has a marginally higher chance of winning, statistically, due to the sheer size of population, MLBs are more likely to consistently place relative to the Sephiroths.
That said, as I might have mentioned before, Narukami and OTT does pretty well in our English tournaments (the BLOOD and CoCo can be a pain to handle). Based on the tournament results which I gleamed from the LGSes where I play, I am sensing that Aqua Force (especially Maelstrom) and Nova Grappler (especially Illuminal) might see some representation in the top 8 soon.
Interestingly, I was under the impression that regardless of locations, players do play with both the Japanese and English version of the game (i.e. TCG and OCG). Personally, I can't read a single Japanese character at all and I maintain two Japanese and one English decks.
The Qualifiers referred to in that link specifically allowed English-printed cards only. To date, I have not been aware of a NA tournament circuit that requires Japanese cards.
For the record, I feel that the ratios are not that bad if you consider the MtG meta at certain points (Jund and Faeries anybody?)
You mean those decks that people constantly complained were overpowered in Standard, at meta saturation rates of 30% and 20% respectively?
There are some good minor clan builds floating around which somehow get overlooked (just because no main characters in the anime plays them :rolleyes:) but due to the luck based nature of this game, I wouldn't say that they consistently place. For example, assume that there are two-three Sephiroth decks (NN) and ten MLB decks (RP) floating around. Even if Sephiroth has a marginally higher chance of winning, statistically, due to the sheer size of population, MLBs are more likely to consistently place relative to the Sephiroths.
This is the point I was getting at with regard to Swiss tournaments. Say that this tournament is run and the top 4 are all GP, but after the numbers are crunched of 50-odd matches, it's revealed that those 2-3 Sephiroth decks had an average win rate of 60% vs GP, while all builds of GP were roughly 50-50 against each other. Might this data induce some of the weaker GP players to switch over to Sephiroth, thus diversifying the metagame and forcing the GP holdouts to change up their card selection as well?
(Incidentally, I believe the answer is probably no, due to the way Bushiroad structures their game design -- archetypes are much less fluid in CFV, due to each clan having their own 1-2 gimmicks and hybrid clan decks being pretty much impossible. For example, if I don't like the way my GWB deck is performing in Magic, I can switch it over to Jund and still be able to keep a lot of the staple cards like Goyf, Pulse, duals, etc. Whereas in CFV if I'm sick of GP mirror matches all the time I have to re-buy my entire deck from scratch, then if that clan turns out to do worse than GP I no longer have a use for the cards I bought for that deck, or any other cards that will ever be printed for that clan in the future, barring power creep or GP cards going on the ban/restrict list. It's true in Magic as well that 90% of cards are crap in Constructed, but that's mostly due to Limited considerations and not WotC specifically pushing a Constructed archetype that turned out to be a total dud.)
It's good that you have a healthy locals though. Mine died a while back, according to a friend who used to go (it was gone by the time I started going regularly to that store), because of some issues with the store location and people QQing over double crit sack.
The Qualifiers referred to in that link specifically allowed English-printed cards only. To date, I have not been aware of a NA tournament circuit that requires Japanese cards.
I know that there was an official region-wide tournament for the Japanese version a few days ago (where players would meet up to play at Singapore) but I did not actually get to join because it was coincidentally during my exam season. I am not sure if it applies in NA though. That said, I thought that the Japanese cards are available in North America and played there too.
You mean those decks that people constantly complained were overpowered in Standard, at meta saturation rates of 30% and 20% respectively?
In a way, I guess my point is that despite being ostensibly "overpowered", due to the chance-reliant nature of CFV, non-meta decks stand a decent chance against these meta decks. True, the newer Narukami decks provide insane card advantage in the form of a highly consistent removal suite but even then, that deck is not perfectly "safe" if the random gods decide to smite them. One may argue that Magic likewise has a chance element in the form of mana screw / mana flood / colour screw / etc. though I would argue (and would be willing to prove) that the element of chance is significantly lower in Magic.
This is the point I was getting at with regard to Swiss tournaments. Say that this tournament is run and the top 4 are all GP, but after the numbers are crunched of 50-odd matches, it's revealed that those 2-3 Sephiroth decks had an average win rate of 60% vs GP, while all builds of GP were roughly 50-50 against each other. Might this data induce some of the weaker GP players to switch over to Sephiroth, thus diversifying the metagame and forcing the GP holdouts to change up their card selection as well?
You are probably right though it is worth noting that even when that happens, the target demographics of CFV consist of a significant majority those who are probably into the anime (I am a partial exception). Given that Sephiroth made little (if any) major appearance in the anime and given that a significant majority of the target CFV playing demographic play the clans that the main characters play, it is uncertain that real data would hold much sway (it does not help that the clans that the main characters play tend to be good in their own right). Note that I am not disagreeing with you but I am simply arguing that for a large portion of the target demographic would be a lot less sensitive to actual data. To contrast, few players would play, say, Rhys or Melira just because they are main characters in the Lorwyn and New Phyrexia arcs respectively.
(Incidentally, I believe the answer is probably no, due to the way Bushiroad structures their game design -- archetypes are much less fluid in CFV, due to each clan having their own 1-2 gimmicks and hybrid clan decks being pretty much impossible. For example, if I don't like the way my GWB deck is performing in Magic, I can switch it over to Jund and still be able to keep a lot of the staple cards like Goyf, Pulse, duals, etc. Whereas in CFV if I'm sick of GP mirror matches all the time I have to re-buy my entire deck from scratch, then if that clan turns out to do worse than GP I no longer have a use for the cards I bought for that deck, or any other cards that will ever be printed for that clan in the future, barring power creep or GP cards going on the ban/restrict list. It's true in Magic as well that 90% of cards are crap in Constructed, but that's mostly due to Limited considerations and not WotC specifically pushing a Constructed archetype that turned out to be a total dud.)
I agree with most of your points but to balance things out, I would like to point out that power creep may be intentional on Bushiroad's part given that cards don't actually phase out like they do in Magic's standard -- and BSR, being a profit seeking corporation needs to... well, sell more cards Sure, the argument is moot for the more eternal Magic formats but given that Standard is one of the more popular format around, my point probably still stands.
It's good that you have a healthy locals though. Mine died a while back, according to a friend who used to go (it was gone by the time I started going regularly to that store), because of some issues with the store location and people QQing over double crit sack.
My sympathies, I suppose. We do have players who dislike the chance based element of VG. However, players who (eventually learn to) enjoy the game tend to start by accepting (indeed embracing) the chance-based nature of the game and the resulting lottery-based nature of its tournaments. Playing competitively (or at least with a heavy focus on winning) will most likely set players up for disappointment as soon as the they lose the random gods favour. Even in our tournaments, seeing a player survive with a timely heal trigger or killing a player with three damage using an unexpected double critical is usually a source of amusement.
TL;DR: CFV is probably not for everybody though those who enjoy it tend to be those that do not take the game too seriously (though to be fair, the same could be said of Magic).
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Standard
Retired
Modern
(G/W)RZooR(G/W)
SRSkredRS
EDH
(W/B)Teysa, Orzhov Scion (Token Control)(W/B)
(R/G)Omnath, Locus of Rage (Elemental Rage)(R/G)
(G/U)Kaseto, Orochi Archmage (Sneaky Snakes)(G/U)
I have lost interest in the game for quite some time now, but I might try and dump off the cards I have there.
Standard:
UR Ral Combo
Modern:
U Merfolk
R Goblins
Commander
RB Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
R Feldon of the Third Path
Over at a different LGS that I go to on Saturdays, Vanguard's kind of been dying out over there in favor of Yu-Gi-Oh! and the main decks I've seen played there were MLB, DoTE, Pale Moon Sarah, and a Dark Irregulars deck that's pretty good. I'm hoping Vanguard picks up there but I've been seeing alot of Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh!, MTG, and Kaijudo played there too. The player attendence I've been seeing for Kaijudo at that LGS is about the same as Vanguard is where I live.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
Hopefully I can finish my Great Daiyusha DP deck before the prices become obscene (even moreso than they are now).
Standard
Retired
Modern
(G/W)RZooR(G/W)
SRSkredRS
EDH
(W/B)Teysa, Orzhov Scion (Token Control)(W/B)
(R/G)Omnath, Locus of Rage (Elemental Rage)(R/G)
(G/U)Kaseto, Orochi Archmage (Sneaky Snakes)(G/U)
Standard:
UR Ral Combo
Modern:
U Merfolk
R Goblins
Commander
RB Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
R Feldon of the Third Path
I may be in error but GBP12 is approximately equals to USD20. The intro product is unfortunately expensive and when I started the game, I did so by buying whole decks from players. To their defence, the trial decks are somewhat equivalents of MtG's event decks (as opposed to the precon rubbish) with trial deck exclusive cards.
I am having somewhat the opposite problem with Vanguard where I play though -- for reference, I am currently in Asia. The English event attracts somewhere in the region of 40 players while the Japanese event attract just under 20 players. I will probably be popping by the shop on Saturday to see if the meta have changed drastically since I took a break for exams -- if I am lucky enough to grab a seat, at least.
Kagero & Narukami and the three paladin clans do make up a bulk of the decks there though soulless OTT, Luqier's Pale Moon and the Dimensional Police's crossride has been steadily rising as a novelty, especially for the English meta. That said, Spike Brothers took the shop's last tournament (5-round tournament). I do expect to see the newish Neo Nectar Musketeer and Sephiroth ride chain this week thanks to the novelty of it.
There has been a revival in soulless OTT in the Japanese meta thanks to the lifted restrictions on Silent Tom though Narukami (even with its banning) remain one of the stronger decks in the meta. Dark horses that randomly do well (in the Japanese meta) includes Tachikaze's Battlerex and of course, Bermuda's new Prism Labrador. Also in the Japanese meta, Royal Paladin has declined in popularity for a bit (with Majesty Lord Blaster being restricted and all) though some players have tested out the Jewel Knights build to mixed results. Speaking of Japanese novelties though, I expect to see Angel Feather's Celestials popping around, at least for these few weeks before the novelty settles (to be fair, Zerachiel is substantially easier to pilot than Metatron).
18.55 USD, but I'd figure everything would be cheaper in America than UK anyways due to a difference in VAT and such, not that I know much about VAT or Economics.
Standard:
UR Ral Combo
Modern:
U Merfolk
R Goblins
Commander
RB Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
R Feldon of the Third Path
Bushiroad's Organized Play for Cardfight!! Vanguard is terrible, but what I don't get is how players from Japan and Singapore are used to the kind of mentality of enjoying Best of 1 matches the most when compared to players from North America such as myself who would want a chance to come back in the next game in Best of 2 when the TCG itself with the current Organized Play Structure makes the game more luck based competitively than it already is. If you get grade locked even once, miss your ride chain, or get a double crit at 3 damage under Best of 1 Double Elimination then you're more than likely going to get kicked out of the Tournament. How is that any fun? It's not.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
I've noticed fighting game tournaments being run the same way (best of 1 with double elim). There might be some connection there.
While looking at some tournament rules for Weiβ Schwarz I noticed that the organizers seem very concerned with keeping match time under 30 minutes. There might be a connection there as well.
In Kaijudo/Duel Masters it's Best of 2 Swiss which is one of the reasons why I like the way Wizards/Hasbro setup their Tournament Structure more consistently than Bushiroad has with Vanguard and Weiβ Schwarz. This just further proves that Asia has a different mentality of managing tournaments like this compared to North America where you have a much better chance.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
True, this can be bad because it does not reward skill appropriately in favour of luck. On the other hand, the apparent intent is to help encourage casual players into the fold and discourage an overcompetitive scenario (is it worth spending X amount of money if you have a y% chance of losing a random trial deck?). A Swiss-run VG tournament will almost consistently have Narukami and Kagero (at least for the Japanese meta) in the top percentile weekly. Especially for WS, I would argue that the intent of these games (especially WS) was never designed to be competitive in the same way that Magic was designed to be competitive; I started WS purely because I liked a particular anime series but this is neither here nor there.
Incidentally, WS matches are often best of one for the simple reason that Weiß Schwarz games are really that long. One game can easily gobble up thirty minutes assume that players take reasonable amount of time to perform reasonable calculations; there are many instances where all that planning goes down into the drain anyway because of the random climax gods. It takes a bit longer for non-Japanese reading players, mind you, given that you will have to spend some time asking your opponent what card does what -- the English version of WS is still at its infancy and is available for a relatively small number of series only, at this point. A best of three format can be a nightmare with some matches taking up to one and a half hours while lucky / unlucky players who finished their matches in about 45 minutes sit on their hand while waiting for the next round to start.
Standard:
UR Ral Combo
Modern:
U Merfolk
R Goblins
Commander
RB Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
R Feldon of the Third Path
Fighting games don't have a chance element, and can be bracketed so the top players don't knock each other out early. Seems more reasonable in that case.
Considering that a single clan (GP) dominated the NA standings anyway even with Best of 1/Double Elim, it doesn't follow that Best of 2/Swiss would quash deck diversity or discourage casual players. A bad player can still dreamcrush a pro with random double crit using a trial deck, but that should be an uncommon scenario, not something to strive for!
If tournaments are run as Swiss: Bad players don't have to go home after an hour, and have a reasonable shot of being matched against people of their similar skill level. Good players can lose a game or two and still feel like they have a chance to be in it. More people hanging around the venue for longer means more people for the tournament organizer to sell cards, supplies, and food to. More games played means we have more meta-data (if such a thing is relevant) to shut up all the people who whine about Deck X being overpowered if in fact it is not. Seems like a win for everyone.
Avatar by Numotflame96 of Maelstrom Graphics
Sig banner thanks to DarkNightCavalier of Heroes of the Plane Studios!
Actually, it does happen, albeit infrequently. I have had matches drawn out for about 30 minutes with matches of Oracle, Genesis and Bermuda going against each other (especially the more draw intensive variants).
Interesting, I was not aware that Gold Paladin was dominant in NA. Was this in the English or Japanese meta?
But back to the point, mind you, I am not claiming that double elimination is anwhere close to a perfect solution to this nor did I say that double crits are "something to strive for". I even went on to mention that veteran players should win more games in their careers (i.e. the long run). I would argue that if best of 1/double elimination resulted in a single clan dominated meta, it is likely that Swiss would make it a lot worse.
I won't speak for the scene in NA (since I am not from NA) but from where I am playing, players that are knocked out don't usually "go home after an hour", so to speak. At larger events, the main event tend to be treated as a side event of sorts where knocked out players would simply wander off to mingle and play with some random strangers (saying "shikata ga nai" or something to that effect). Since the events tend to be run next to anime-related events (trust me, the organisers do get something out of this), winning is more of a bonus since it is sort of an open secret that Vanguard is an extremely luck based game with even the best decks going all "tsun" at the most critical moments and all "dere" at casual tables. I am not qualified to say that this is true of shop tournaments though since shop tournaments I join tend to be run in Best of 1/Swiss, anyway
I can accept the some players may take a more calculated approach towards the game but at the same time, I think it is worth pointing out that there are equally valid rationale for running the tournament differently, especially if the intent is different.
Everything I say is about the English meta, as I live in the US. Some guy compiled the results of a bunch of pie charts from last year's Qualifier events here and concluded that GP was about 25% of the meta on average, with that % increasing in the top cut. (The Indonesia chart was particularly sad, with 50% GP, 30% Naru, and 20% "everything else".)
Interesting. I have never been to an event (at least not one with a significant competitive aspect) at an anime convention, so I can't speak to whether people in NA stick around the M:TG area or wander off to other parts of the convention after they're mathematically eliminated. In events I've been to where the first prize is significantly more valuable than any prizes for side events (e.g. PTQs), people gradually drift out as they drop out of contention, so that by the time the top 8 cut occurs, the event hall is completely deserted aside from the judges, the players still in it, and people who are friends/sharing a car with them.
Then again, everything I've heard indicates that the general Japanese mindset (in CFV at least) is significantly less oriented around competing than the NA mindset. (Remind me, have decks other than DOTE/MLB been able to consistently place yet?)
Avatar by Numotflame96 of Maelstrom Graphics
Sig banner thanks to DarkNightCavalier of Heroes of the Plane Studios!
Interestingly, I was under the impression that regardless of locations, players do play with both the Japanese and English version of the game (i.e. TCG and OCG). Personally, I can't read a single Japanese character at all and I maintain two Japanese and one English decks.
I'd make a few conjectures on the link you sent me now though I admittedly started VG after that date. I would argue that the results would have been far worse if it was Swiss. While I did argue that the other clans would stand a higher chance of "striking the lottery", so to speak, under the 1 round-double elimination system, I would not go so far as to say that playing a meta clan would not increase your chances of winning.
For the record, I feel that the ratios are not that bad if you consider the MtG meta at certain points (Jund and Faeries anybody?)
Given that players do have to take the trouble to go to the venue, I think most players try to make the most of their trip. Some will eventually "drift off", so to speak, but there is often no shortage of players that will be sticking around.
Of course, monetarily, the first prize is going to be worth significantly more than any prizes for side events but I think players tend to see the top prizes as "lottery prizes", so to speak and settle for the more realistic gains from the side events (and the social experiences too). That, and as mentioned, given that you came all the way to the venue, it makes little sense to go home just because you because got knocked out
There are some good minor clan builds floating around which somehow get overlooked (just because no main characters in the anime plays them :rolleyes:) but due to the luck based nature of this game, I wouldn't say that they consistently place. For example, assume that there are two-three Sephiroth decks (NN) and ten MLB decks (RP) floating around. Even if Sephiroth has a marginally higher chance of winning, statistically, due to the sheer size of population, MLBs are more likely to consistently place relative to the Sephiroths.
That said, as I might have mentioned before, Narukami and OTT does pretty well in our English tournaments (the BLOOD and CoCo can be a pain to handle). Based on the tournament results which I gleamed from the LGSes where I play, I am sensing that Aqua Force (especially Maelstrom) and Nova Grappler (especially Illuminal) might see some representation in the top 8 soon.
The Qualifiers referred to in that link specifically allowed English-printed cards only. To date, I have not been aware of a NA tournament circuit that requires Japanese cards.
You mean those decks that people constantly complained were overpowered in Standard, at meta saturation rates of 30% and 20% respectively?
This is the point I was getting at with regard to Swiss tournaments. Say that this tournament is run and the top 4 are all GP, but after the numbers are crunched of 50-odd matches, it's revealed that those 2-3 Sephiroth decks had an average win rate of 60% vs GP, while all builds of GP were roughly 50-50 against each other. Might this data induce some of the weaker GP players to switch over to Sephiroth, thus diversifying the metagame and forcing the GP holdouts to change up their card selection as well?
(Incidentally, I believe the answer is probably no, due to the way Bushiroad structures their game design -- archetypes are much less fluid in CFV, due to each clan having their own 1-2 gimmicks and hybrid clan decks being pretty much impossible. For example, if I don't like the way my GWB deck is performing in Magic, I can switch it over to Jund and still be able to keep a lot of the staple cards like Goyf, Pulse, duals, etc. Whereas in CFV if I'm sick of GP mirror matches all the time I have to re-buy my entire deck from scratch, then if that clan turns out to do worse than GP I no longer have a use for the cards I bought for that deck, or any other cards that will ever be printed for that clan in the future, barring power creep or GP cards going on the ban/restrict list. It's true in Magic as well that 90% of cards are crap in Constructed, but that's mostly due to Limited considerations and not WotC specifically pushing a Constructed archetype that turned out to be a total dud.)
It's good that you have a healthy locals though. Mine died a while back, according to a friend who used to go (it was gone by the time I started going regularly to that store), because of some issues with the store location and people QQing over double crit sack.
Avatar by Numotflame96 of Maelstrom Graphics
Sig banner thanks to DarkNightCavalier of Heroes of the Plane Studios!
I know that there was an official region-wide tournament for the Japanese version a few days ago (where players would meet up to play at Singapore) but I did not actually get to join because it was coincidentally during my exam season. I am not sure if it applies in NA though. That said, I thought that the Japanese cards are available in North America and played there too.
In a way, I guess my point is that despite being ostensibly "overpowered", due to the chance-reliant nature of CFV, non-meta decks stand a decent chance against these meta decks. True, the newer Narukami decks provide insane card advantage in the form of a highly consistent removal suite but even then, that deck is not perfectly "safe" if the random gods decide to smite them. One may argue that Magic likewise has a chance element in the form of mana screw / mana flood / colour screw / etc. though I would argue (and would be willing to prove) that the element of chance is significantly lower in Magic.
You are probably right though it is worth noting that even when that happens, the target demographics of CFV consist of a significant majority those who are probably into the anime (I am a partial exception). Given that Sephiroth made little (if any) major appearance in the anime and given that a significant majority of the target CFV playing demographic play the clans that the main characters play, it is uncertain that real data would hold much sway (it does not help that the clans that the main characters play tend to be good in their own right). Note that I am not disagreeing with you but I am simply arguing that for a large portion of the target demographic would be a lot less sensitive to actual data. To contrast, few players would play, say, Rhys or Melira just because they are main characters in the Lorwyn and New Phyrexia arcs respectively.
I agree with most of your points but to balance things out, I would like to point out that power creep may be intentional on Bushiroad's part given that cards don't actually phase out like they do in Magic's standard -- and BSR, being a profit seeking corporation needs to... well, sell more cards Sure, the argument is moot for the more eternal Magic formats but given that Standard is one of the more popular format around, my point probably still stands.
My sympathies, I suppose. We do have players who dislike the chance based element of VG. However, players who (eventually learn to) enjoy the game tend to start by accepting (indeed embracing) the chance-based nature of the game and the resulting lottery-based nature of its tournaments. Playing competitively (or at least with a heavy focus on winning) will most likely set players up for disappointment as soon as the they lose the random gods favour. Even in our tournaments, seeing a player survive with a timely heal trigger or killing a player with three damage using an unexpected double critical is usually a source of amusement.
TL;DR: CFV is probably not for everybody though those who enjoy it tend to be those that do not take the game too seriously (though to be fair, the same could be said of Magic).