As I said before, YGO is usually more linear than mtg because of the way races work. If you look at the top decks, all of them have a significant theme of having staples + cards tailored to a particular race (X-saber is about the X-saber race, Blackwings are all the blackwings race, etc.) with few decks that are actually outside of that type of architecture. Seriously, it's worse than tribal cards we have in mtg.
Cards are easily restricted, banned, and reprinted at common in YGO. Your 100 dollar secret rare that's an absolute staple in that competitive archetype is likely going to be reprinted in a tin as the set after that comes out. I wouldn't worry, since the next set is usually more OP and has a new set of staples you need to stay ahead. That 100 dollar staple? Well you're lucky to get 20 bucks out of it afterwards. It's equivalent to making say Jace TMS 3 times rarer than it is right now and then after it rotates mass reprint it at common as the next Jace Super TMS comes out in the next set.
The ban/restricted list is stupidly complex and is designed to specifically kill decks. Whenever Konami sees something too good, they just restrict/ban a couple of the key cards. There, the deck is now tier 2 or lower. They just repeat this cycle over and over again for each new set's OP deck.
Konami doesn't spend much money on R&D like Wizards does. This is why mtg is mathematically the best TCG that's currently in print. Konami also suffers from L5D syndrome, where it seems like they justify broken cards by saying it isn't, then ban it afterwards once it has been proven to do so.
A combo is different from a theme. I have a Warrior Toolbox deck(I play only by request these days so there's no rush to make a new deck) built and while the cards work together I wouldn't call the deck a combo deck. Combo decks have to do something...that something has to be more than bringing a bunch of dudes out and attacking. Examples of a combo deck, Bad Reaction/Gift Card, Empty Jar, Last Turn, Exchange of Spirit, etc. The latter three decks were banned eventually but they're the most potent examples.
I'll just disagree with you here. A lot of the decks that are top tier today usually win by dropping a lot of threats in a single turn and pounding for a lot of damage, and these threats are dropped often by spamming synchros. And these synchros require specific pieces. Sabers, for example, pretty much need darksoul to win so they can begin plussing to explode, make their boss guy and discard your entire hand. Infernities sets up its hand and graveyard in order to explode for game (or damn near close) in a single turn. Six Samurais have several infinite loops.
The only top tier deck that isn't combo atm is Gravekeepers.
So after a little research and talking to people, I think that one problem with YGO is that their sets dont build a story or a world really, which is what Im used to in magic. sure the cards have sort of a common theme alot of times, but is that a story? no.
Yes they do. The TV show. But it's bad. Sooooooo bad.
Also, do they really not playtest cards AT ALL before release?! I..I cannot fathom this.. I mean looking at some cards I guess it makes sense but..srsly wtf?
Not really. Usually they release cards that make a deck broken about 2 to 3 months before the new banlist hits. It's pretty much a sales booster for them as it makes everyone want the new cards.
Anyway, what I really want to ask is what makes the top YGO decks great? is it about having a variety of ways to win over a game or more about speed kills by getting hordes/one huge guy really quickly?
Their ability to plus, their access to synchros and/or removal, and their dependency on luck due to the nature of their strategies. A deck like x-sabers has cards that fish for all the pieces it needs, and it'll hit them 9/10 times.
Also, how much more/less of a psychological game is YGO compared to MtG? Coming into it I was attracted by the idea of traps and set creatures and mind games, but it seems like this might be less important than I had thought? Thoughts about this?
Once you figure out what your opponent is running and what the theme of their deck is, you can pretty much figure out anything, even bluffs. Occasionally you'll get caught off guard, but you get pretty used to reading bluffs.
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"If you're Havengul problems I feel bad for you son, I got 99 problems and a Lich ain't one." - FSM
"In a world where money talks, silence is horrifying."
Gotcha gotcha. Well, seems like a fun thing to mess around with w/ friends occasionally just to remind myself why Magic is really awesome. Thanks alot for all your input guys!
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The true mind can weather all the lies and illusions without being lost. The true heart can tough the poison of hatred without being harmed. Since beginning-less time, darkness thrives in the void but always yields to purifying light.
I invision a future where one is not mighty when he can silence a crowd with brutality,
but when he leaves them speechless with wisdom.
Well, to be fair, that card was from one of the earlier sets, which they probably didn't though of as being unfair and not fun. Like how there's Necropotence early in Magic's life, which is a really powerful draw enchantment that got you ton advantage in Magic. Although, this really doesn't excuse of YGO's current creep....
I guess the difference here, though, is that you can continously play YGO cards(to an extent, as long as you can pay the cost, if there is any...) while MTG you need not only the right amount of mana, but also the right color too. So, one couldn't just throw in cards willy nilly.
Well to be fair, by the time Yugioh came around CCG's were a known entity and they have some idea of what balanced should of meant based off of other games. When WoTC made Ancestral Recall they were taking a shot in the dark and thought rarity would balance it out. By the time Yugioh came out they had the benefit of Wizard's experience.
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I forgot to mention this. There's a lot of overly restrictive cards and terribly worded cards. Like say...Assault mode activate decks. I haven't seen a successful deck that manages to get assault mode activate to survive a turn on the battlefield, get a tuner/regular out of the specificities you want, get the synchro out, and then activate assault mode. It's too restrictive for it to be consistent, though I have seen it in more casual tables. Assault Revival btw doesn't work the way it is worded and there hasn't been an errata from this. You have to be told by someone that you can't just dump an assault mode card into the gy and use assault revival. You have to have done the assault mode summon first, let it die, THEN you can use revival on it.
Yeah, there's also a lot of really wordy cards in the game as well, and it sometimes can hurt your eyes looking at the tiny text in such a tiny text box.
Yup. Not only does Yugioh's (alleged) R&D department not only have problems with making their cards balanced, they can't even make them clear. For example, take a look at the two cards Evil Hero Infernal Prodigy and XX-Saber Darksoul, which have essentially the same context in their end of turn effects:
E Hero: " If you Tribute this card to Tribute Summon an "Elemental Hero", "Destiny Hero", or "Evil Hero" monster, draw 1 card during this turn's End Phase."
Darksoul: "If this card you control is sent to the Graveyard, during the End Phase you can add 1 "X-Saber" monster from your Deck to your hand."
Darksoul was the card that would make or break X-Sabers as a top deck, so guess what? Konami made a special ruling for the card that the card's effect would activate upon going to the yard and then the player would search during the endphase of his turn without it going on the chain (a.k.a. the stack). This means one Darksoul can stack its effect multiple times in one turn. Yet years earlier the ruling for Prodigy was that it's effect activated when the turn ended, and a player couldn't stack it many times with the same Prodigy. Also, if Prodigy was tributed and then resummoned via something like a Monster Reborn its effect wouldn't activate. But Darksoul's, because it activates as soon as it gets sent, does.
It's stupid, really. They can't balance a game as simple as Yugioh. They're getting better at it, finally, because right now there isn't one God tier deck with all the insects below it, but rather a few top tier decks and all the insects below them. The only way to make a difference in this idea is in a local meta, you will NOT win a major tournament without a top-tier deck with the very rare exception that nobody has realized that an old archetype got ridiculously good because of a new card or two.
Broken lists that have been rocked by the banlist include: Lightsworns, Blackwings, Gladiator Beasts, X-sabers, Six Samurais, and Destiny Hero. The fun I got from the game certainly did not come from the game; the community here is just really great.
"If you're Havengul problems I feel bad for you son, I got 99 problems and a Lich ain't one." - FSM
"In a world where money talks, silence is horrifying."
I have a fire-based deck that has had the same cards in it for like... four or five years now. The basis is Gravitybind (creatures with 4 or more stars cannot attack) and some 3 star fire sprite that starts w/ 100 atk power and gains 1000 power whenever it connects with the opponent. And can hit the opponent directly. Some card to let it attack twice per combat, and then some fire dragon that deals damage to the opponent as long as I have it in play at the end of my turn... Far from "great" but it did well against my friends.
Then there is my Self Destruct Button deck... But I only made that to piss off my friends since I am pretty terrible at Yugioh in general.
Well to be fair, by the time Yugioh came around CCG's were a known entity and they have some idea of what balanced should of meant based off of other games. When WoTC made Ancestral Recall they were taking a shot in the dark and thought rarity would balance it out. By the time Yugioh came out they had the benefit of Wizard's experience.
Magic is resource based thought, Yugioh doesn't really have a "resource"(At least not on the same lines as Magic, lol.) It was whole new idea. When they created Raigeki, they were probably thinking that without resources, with the exception one normal summon per turn, that it was an okay card to counter against swarmy decks. But, this obviously wasn't true and was limited, then banned.
Wizards(Well, the Magic R&D group really, since they're the ones who tests the cards.) are also guilty of cards that were a little too splashy and give so much advantage too, even after all those years. Skullclamp(2004) for example. I mean, the R&D had good intentions, since it would be nice to get some cards after a massive fieldswipe. Of course, it was a little too good and easy to fit in to every deck. It got ban from standard and block constructed on June 20th.
The point I'm trying to make here, is that no one is perfect. However, I will say that Wizard's R&D is much more perfect than Konami's R&D when it comes to making cards.
I basically stopped playing Yu-gi-oh when they limited Cyber Dragon. I loved that guy. Cyber Twin and Cyber End were my favorites. Loved my machine deck and they ruined it.
It's actually unlimited now, if you really wanted to come back to it.
(I wouldn't recommend playing YGO again thought....)
@Ulfsaar: The YuGi judges have an acronym for that. BKSS. Because Konami Says So.
It really is stupid and contradictory at times. =/
Like this: Green Baboon, Defender of the Forest for example. It used to been ruled that you activate his effect when a Beast type monster you control was destroyed in battle, that you can special summon him. Few years later, they changed it so that it you couldn't activate it when your Beast dies in battle. Then of course, they released Yellow Baboon, Archer of the Forest; that can be special summoned from your hand when a Beast monster dies in battle.
Seriously, it's like they changed Green's ruling not to make it less powerful, but so they have an excuse to release Yellow....It's conspiracy I tell you! A conspiracy!!!:argh:
Well to be fair, by the time Yugioh came around CCG's were a known entity and they have some idea of what balanced should of meant based off of other games. When WoTC made Ancestral Recall they were taking a shot in the dark and thought rarity would balance it out. By the time Yugioh came out they had the benefit of Wizard's experience.
Bah. The YGO OCG was released in 1999, only 6 years after Magic, and frankly until fairly recently Wizard's seemed okay with creating obviously powerful cards and degenerate interactions. That being said, YGO was created because there was a card game in the anime and manga and it was a money making opportunity. Dozens and dozens of TCG's are released in Japan every year and many are based on popular anime and manga. The creators of YGO didn't forsee that the game they created would become as popular as it did and so concepts like balance or good design didn't figure into the early sets of the game. YGO is the 3rd oldest running TCG, behind Magic and L5R, and so other TCG's are learning from it, not the other way around.
I've played yuigoh long enough that I think I can make contributions to this thread (a few years, although Konami's management of the game has largely driven me out of it as of late. Excuse my inaccuracies, I'm not up on the current meta)
Yugioh was actually a hugely fun game to play when I started going to tournaments. Overtime though, so start to notice a few key things:
1) Tribal based strategies are usually dominant (either by creature type or "theme")
Think if all of magic was based on lorewyn block. Tribal strategies are usually dominant because both the sets and the show the card game is based on is pretty devoted to having support planted in a theme. Think of it like if Rise from the Grave only brought back black monsters. You couldn't really mix and match themes like you can colors in magic, it would dilute the power of your deck way too much.
2) Power creep is constantly out of hand, and the ban list played far too much of a role
It seemed like in an effort to balance out the most powerful cards in the game, konami would just print more powerful cards. If the cards were still too powerful, they would ban them until they've released stupid enough cards that they aren't that bad by comparison, then proceed to unban them.
3) Synchros were a huge mistake in general
Synchros were a new class of creature cards that essentially acted as a toolbox of powerhouses to trump anything else on the field. As more and more were released, and easier methods were gained for summoning them, it pretty much became a requirement to run them or lose (unless you played lightsworn, aka dredge, a graveyard strategy so powerful it pretty much ignored everything else)
4) The ban list could put a card at 2 or 1, not just 3 or 0. (think vintage)
This is an issue that stifles a ton of creativity in deckbuilding. Because a lot of cards are at one, but not banned, almost every deck would run the same suite of power cards (torrential tribute, mystical space typhoon, mirror force, solemn judgment, etc)
5) The game was more luck based, but not in a fun way
a- The dice roll to see who went first was incredibly relevant to who won
This is because the second player didn't get an extra draw or anything, the opening player just wasn't allowed to attack. Yugioh works where traps have to be set for a turn before you can activate them, so the opening player had a huge advantage in being able to set his first
b- The singular power of cards
Topdecking a single card could win you the game outright, even when having a terrible boardstate. The fact that brain control (act of treason) is pretty telling of the power level of cards
c- no mulligans
Yeah. sometimes you just lost.
6) Tcg vs Ocg, secondary market prices, $$$ etc
Quick rundown: Ocg = japan, Tcg = everywhere else. You can't run OCG cards in the TCG, and this this lets konami do fun things to make sure they sell more cardboard
As an example: Dark armed dragon is released as a rare (uncommon) in the OCG. He is promptly found to be incredibly powerful, and everyone plays him. Fast forward 2-3 months to his release in the TCG (sets come out in the OCG before the TCG). Dark armed dragon is a secret rare (super-mythic rare), which promptly puts his secondary market prices in the hundreds.
*As a quick note, yugioh is more expensive than magic, but not by much unfortunately
7) The game simply was not constructed that well, leading to weird rulings (aka Because Konami Says So, BKSS)
Seriously, there are some really screwed up interactions between cards that never should have been allowed to happen in the first place. If you want an example, look up Brain Golem versus DNA Surgery. Dunno is they resolved that one, might be an infinite loop (meaning that you're not legally allowed to activate the second card). Don't even get me started on rulings that seemed to be made just to make their new cards work better...
8) I hate the player base.
The stuff they tell you about people stealing cards is true. I don't know how it happened, but over the years, yugioh just seemed to draw a ton of scummy people into the game. Seriously, go to regional, the place is filled with this odd mix of nerds and gangsters...
I could really go on, but in short, yugioh is a sinking ship in my eyes. It was fun while it lasted, but... i dunno, things just started to decay for me. Shame.
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The foolish wish for that which they desire. The cunning wish for that which they require.
Honestly, Yugioh needs more management. Konami hasn't really done the game justice for some time. What they need to do is the following:
Add better cards to sets:
Honestly this one needs to be done. I am currently building a werewolf deck from the newest magic set, innistrad. 3/4 0f the deck is from this set. I want to see more of this is yugioh.
Add more formats:
I have only this to say: Commander. Look at what this did to magic. It was a giant success.
Better tournament Structure:
You need more competitive play opportunities. Look a the pro tour and how they do it. They record the matches and post them on youtube and everything. I swear its like ESPN!! LoL.
Duel Disks:
I know this will probably not happen, but if they make some type of duel disk system, I know alot of people will come to the game or com back to the game. Make one and get off your asses Konami!!
Better tournament Structure:
You need more competitive play opportunities. Look a the pro tour and how they do it. They record the matches and post them on youtube and everything. I swear its like ESPN!! LoL.
When it comes to Magic nowadays, I think their tournament structure could use some improving. For one make Standard less expensive than Legacy, fix the Modern format where Combo is still viable with checks and counters, and bring back FNM's and Player Rewards in the game. Really If Wizards did that it would be a godsend. Maybe bring back Countermagic and give other colors checks and counters to them but that would break their color wheel policy.
Yu-Gi-Oh! on the other hand, I don't know. I'd scrape the Advanced Format and change it to a Set Rotation format like every other TCG. Unban cards that were recently printed that synergize with older cards and rotate out the format down to like 6 expansions up to the current expansion. Sure players will complain but think of why power creep has always been a huge problem for the game itself? By attaining access to older cards that aren't meant to synergize with currently released cards that can lead to problems in a given format.
If it were up to me I would just reboot the entire TCG and have FUNimation redub the Original Anime/Manga series to get players back into the game If they are up to the task to help flow in that classic nostalgia of the franchise itself and maybe while fixing the game bring back classic cards that we all know and love but with an ACTUAL resource system and and cost to pay for playing specific cards. Yu-Gi-Oh!'s current system is broke beyond repair, anyone who says otherwise is in denial.
Quote from roinujo1 »
Add better cards to sets:
Honestly this one needs to be done. I am currently building a werewolf deck from the newest magic set, innistrad. 3/4 0f the deck is from this set. I want to see more of this is yugioh.
Well I will tell you one thing, making corny and ridiculous Monster cards like that one that's a fusion of a Dandelion and a Lion doesn't cut it. The Toon World gimmick was great for awhile until Konami got out of hand with it and designed monsters based on some of the dumbest ideas imaginable.
At least World of Warcraft TCG is good with their sense of humor of cards and so is Magic as well. Combo decks on the other hand heck back when I played the closest thing to a combo was with Magical Scientist and Catapult Turtle with Fusion Monsters like Cyber-Stein or something else. It's been years since I've played so yeah that explains why my memory of it is kind of fuzzy.
Quote from roinujo1 »
Add more formats:
I have only this to say: Commander. Look at what this did to magic. It was a giant success.
Add more formats where players are spending more than a bank account
on decks? Yu-Gi-Oh! is already expensive enough. Instead of ruining card rarity to downgrade card prices at least keep their rarities while dropping their price down somehow. Commander in Yu-Gi-Oh! would just be weird and I'm not sure If it would work. But the thought of a Dark Magician Commander deck versus oh say one on Blue-Eyes White Dragon would be amazing though.
Quote from xc hawk »
1) Tribal based strategies are usually dominant (either by creature type or "theme")
Think if all of magic was based on lorewyn block. Tribal strategies are usually dominant because both the sets and the show the card game is based on is pretty devoted to having support planted in a theme. Think of it like if Rise from the Grave only brought back black monsters. You couldn't really mix and match themes like you can colors in magic, it would dilute the power of your deck way too much.
I started noticing that when I played Yu-Gi-Oh! as well, I guess it got out of hand with Warriors I suppose as well as Machines with Limiter Remover and Jinzo one of the last decks I played before I quit.
Quote from xc hawk »
2) Power creep is constantly out of hand, and the ban list played far too much of a role
It seemed like in an effort to balance out the most powerful cards in the game, konami would just print more powerful cards. If the cards were still too powerful, they would ban them until they've released stupid enough cards that they aren't that bad by comparison, then proceed to unban them.
Yeah all this flip-flopping that Konami does with cards is annoying and as a result players lose money on cards they planned to run. Why do they proceed to do that when most
Yu-Gi-Oh! players take it for granted?
Quote from xc hawk »
3) Synchros were a huge mistake in general
Synchros were a new class of creature cards that essentially acted as a toolbox of powerhouses to trump anything else on the field. As more and more were released, and easier methods were gained for summoning them, it pretty much became a requirement to run them or lose (unless you played lightsworn, aka dredge, a graveyard strategy so powerful it pretty much ignored everything else)
I got out before Synchro Monsters were introduced but I saw them before from some of my friends and I was like, "What was wrong with Fusion Monsters?" Were they that terrible to play?
Quote from xc hawk »
4) The ban list could put a card at 2 or 1, not just 3 or 0. (think vintage)
This is an issue that stifles a ton of creativity in deckbuilding. Because a lot of cards are at one, but not banned, almost every deck would run the same suite of power cards (torrential tribute, mystical space typhoon, mirror force, solemn judgment, etc)
You bring up one of the things that grinds my gears on Yu-Gi-Oh! that most current players are in denial about. It's never a good idea to stifle creative deck building by banning and restricting cards to 1 or 2 per deck because it hurts deck consistency to increase your odds of drawing what you need in a game. Heck the amount of cards you can run in a Yu-Gi-Oh! deck should be 60 cards like every other TCG/CCG instead of it being just 40-50.
Slap a resource cost to play Spell and Trap cards in this game besides Monsters other than Tribute Summons and the like and I think Konami might have it made but alas they don't know any better so yeah. It's epic fail on their part which is a shame. Errating cards instead of banning or restricting them to 1 or 2 per deck is fine as long as it involves common sense instead of spamming countless erratas just to solve problems when it leads more to confusion in the longrun.
Quote from xc hawk »
5) The game was more luck based, but not in a fun way
a- The dice roll to see who went first was incredibly relevant to who won
This is because the second player didn't get an extra draw or anything, the opening player just wasn't allowed to attack. Yugioh works where traps have to be set for a turn before you can activate them, so the opening player had a huge advantage in being able to set his first
b- The singular power of cards
Topdecking a single card could win you the game outright, even when having a terrible boardstate. The fact that brain control (act of treason) is pretty telling of the power level of cards
c- no mulligans
Yeah. sometimes you just lost.
I've always wondered why there are no mulligans in Yu-Gi-Oh!, they need to fix that. There is always a problem when the luck of a TCG/CCG overrides the skill of it in general. If you want consistency and balance you need a good balance of both and the problem is that Yu-Gi-Oh! was flawed severely in design from the very start. We didn't start to buy into it until we saw the problems head on like with the Chaos fiasco with CED and
Yata Lock.
Of course there were Exodia decks back in the day as a cheap wincon as well If you had the cards to play it out of course. One of my friends told me about this revised Exodia deck that was stupid broken, I think it had something to do with drawing out your entire deck without losing or something I can't remember too clearly it's been awhile though. I've lost against Exodia and Yata Lock and those decks aren't fun to play against.
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It's not nearly as punishing to misplays as Magic is, every competitive deck runs about 5 staple cards, and it rewards topdeckers far more than Magic does. There are also certain cards that, when drawn, seal the game a large percentage of the time.
I will never go back to it, personally.
In competitive Yugioh, a misplay WILL cost you the game. I promise you that.
Well, unless you are absolutely dominating them, but then that can run with Magic, too.
That is completely untrue. Oh my goodness gracious, can you please get a clue before you start making posts? There are PLENTY of hybrid decks, as well as a lot of good plain synergy decks than can be brewed up and do well at a YCS. I happens all the time.
Definitely magic, the development of sets are much more scrutinize whereas the designers for yugioh simply go crazy and don't realize they designed a OP card OR an OP combo and thus the banlist changes like every month
Definitely magic, the development of sets are much more scrutinize whereas the designers for yugioh simply go crazy and don't realize they designed a OP card OR an OP combo and thus the banlist changes like every month
1: If the power creep is too big, it can also hurt a game very much,
the werewolf deck is an exception because there were no werewolves before, but if they would introduce a new creature type, the mergoblinelfes, with all the advantages of the 3 races, strictrly better than anything, this would be very bad for the game.
2: Commander was created BY PLAYERS, so if you are annoyed by YUGIOH formats, invent a new one ;).
1. The game is already a load of crap. sets, out of more than 85 cards, have like only 2-10 playable cards. Tour guide of the underworld: $200. If there were more playable decks, then the most this card would go to is 100. I would rather every deck be overpowered then have s few powerful decks.
2. I was using commander as an example. I could have used vintage, legacy, sealed deck(why this one isn't in yugioh ill never no) etc.
In competitive Yugioh, a misplay WILL cost you the game. I promise you that.
Well, unless you are absolutely dominating them, but then that can run with Magic, too.
Not really, I've seen people topdeck their way out of subpar plays and proceed to win 10 times in Yugioh to every 1 time I've seen it happen in Magic.
That is completely untrue. Oh my goodness gracious, can you please get a clue before you start making posts? There are PLENTY of hybrid decks, as well as a lot of good plain synergy decks than can be brewed up and do well at a YCS. I happens all the time.
Have you even looked at the top 8 for YCS? They are all well known top tier archetypes, with maybe the exception of Karakuri, but I have no idea if that deck is top tier or not. Rabbit is brand new but everyone already knows the general idea of the deck (which the top 8 shows).
"If you're Havengul problems I feel bad for you son, I got 99 problems and a Lich ain't one." - FSM
"In a world where money talks, silence is horrifying."
I hear that the metagame is limited to an incredibly small number of decks that everyone copies. Competitions are rampant with thieves and general rudeness. The game itself is fast-paced and can be fun, but the ban lists come along with decks that cost $500-$800, or even $1,000. The game itself isn't complicated -- it's all the rulings that make it often incredibly confusing.
This is what I've heard. I've also heard that Pokemon is infinitely more enjoyable than YGO, and by this point is just as complex and competitive. If you're looking for something to play on the side of MtG, I'd go with that personally.
- no mulliganing. Seriously. WHY CANT YOU MULLIGAN?
- no FoW. I remember having someone show me how he can T1 kill on the pay 50% of the time (which I do think gets fixed by banning, but yeah)
- Design. The banned/restrict list is like at least twice long as Vintage's restricted/banned list, srsly.
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Cards are easily restricted, banned, and reprinted at common in YGO. Your 100 dollar secret rare that's an absolute staple in that competitive archetype is likely going to be reprinted in a tin as the set after that comes out. I wouldn't worry, since the next set is usually more OP and has a new set of staples you need to stay ahead. That 100 dollar staple? Well you're lucky to get 20 bucks out of it afterwards. It's equivalent to making say Jace TMS 3 times rarer than it is right now and then after it rotates mass reprint it at common as the next Jace Super TMS comes out in the next set.
The ban/restricted list is stupidly complex and is designed to specifically kill decks. Whenever Konami sees something too good, they just restrict/ban a couple of the key cards. There, the deck is now tier 2 or lower. They just repeat this cycle over and over again for each new set's OP deck.
Konami doesn't spend much money on R&D like Wizards does. This is why mtg is mathematically the best TCG that's currently in print. Konami also suffers from L5D syndrome, where it seems like they justify broken cards by saying it isn't, then ban it afterwards once it has been proven to do so.
燃える時計秘密めく花の香り
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I'll just disagree with you here. A lot of the decks that are top tier today usually win by dropping a lot of threats in a single turn and pounding for a lot of damage, and these threats are dropped often by spamming synchros. And these synchros require specific pieces. Sabers, for example, pretty much need darksoul to win so they can begin plussing to explode, make their boss guy and discard your entire hand. Infernities sets up its hand and graveyard in order to explode for game (or damn near close) in a single turn. Six Samurais have several infinite loops.
The only top tier deck that isn't combo atm is Gravekeepers.
Yes they do. The TV show. But it's bad. Sooooooo bad.
Not really. Usually they release cards that make a deck broken about 2 to 3 months before the new banlist hits. It's pretty much a sales booster for them as it makes everyone want the new cards.
Their ability to plus, their access to synchros and/or removal, and their dependency on luck due to the nature of their strategies. A deck like x-sabers has cards that fish for all the pieces it needs, and it'll hit them 9/10 times.
Once you figure out what your opponent is running and what the theme of their deck is, you can pretty much figure out anything, even bluffs. Occasionally you'll get caught off guard, but you get pretty used to reading bluffs.
"In a world where money talks, silence is horrifying."
Ashcoat Bear of Limited
I invision a future where one is not mighty when he can silence a crowd with brutality,
but when he leaves them speechless with wisdom.
Well to be fair, by the time Yugioh came around CCG's were a known entity and they have some idea of what balanced should of meant based off of other games. When WoTC made Ancestral Recall they were taking a shot in the dark and thought rarity would balance it out. By the time Yugioh came out they had the benefit of Wizard's experience.
Calvin and Hobbes
Cube Tutor
Yeah, there's also a lot of really wordy cards in the game as well, and it sometimes can hurt your eyes looking at the tiny text in such a tiny text box.
燃える時計秘密めく花の香り
www.pokemoncrossroads.com
E Hero: " If you Tribute this card to Tribute Summon an "Elemental Hero", "Destiny Hero", or "Evil Hero" monster, draw 1 card during this turn's End Phase."
Darksoul: "If this card you control is sent to the Graveyard, during the End Phase you can add 1 "X-Saber" monster from your Deck to your hand."
Darksoul was the card that would make or break X-Sabers as a top deck, so guess what? Konami made a special ruling for the card that the card's effect would activate upon going to the yard and then the player would search during the endphase of his turn without it going on the chain (a.k.a. the stack). This means one Darksoul can stack its effect multiple times in one turn. Yet years earlier the ruling for Prodigy was that it's effect activated when the turn ended, and a player couldn't stack it many times with the same Prodigy. Also, if Prodigy was tributed and then resummoned via something like a Monster Reborn its effect wouldn't activate. But Darksoul's, because it activates as soon as it gets sent, does.
It's stupid, really. They can't balance a game as simple as Yugioh. They're getting better at it, finally, because right now there isn't one God tier deck with all the insects below it, but rather a few top tier decks and all the insects below them. The only way to make a difference in this idea is in a local meta, you will NOT win a major tournament without a top-tier deck with the very rare exception that nobody has realized that an old archetype got ridiculously good because of a new card or two.
Broken lists that have been rocked by the banlist include: Lightsworns, Blackwings, Gladiator Beasts, X-sabers, Six Samurais, and Destiny Hero. The fun I got from the game certainly did not come from the game; the community here is just really great.
"In a world where money talks, silence is horrifying."
Ashcoat Bear of Limited
Then there is my Self Destruct Button deck... But I only made that to piss off my friends since I am pretty terrible at Yugioh in general.
Magic is resource based thought, Yugioh doesn't really have a "resource"(At least not on the same lines as Magic, lol.) It was whole new idea. When they created Raigeki, they were probably thinking that without resources, with the exception one normal summon per turn, that it was an okay card to counter against swarmy decks. But, this obviously wasn't true and was limited, then banned.
Wizards(Well, the Magic R&D group really, since they're the ones who tests the cards.) are also guilty of cards that were a little too splashy and give so much advantage too, even after all those years. Skullclamp(2004) for example. I mean, the R&D had good intentions, since it would be nice to get some cards after a massive fieldswipe. Of course, it was a little too good and easy to fit in to every deck. It got ban from standard and block constructed on June 20th.
The point I'm trying to make here, is that no one is perfect. However, I will say that Wizard's R&D is much more perfect than Konami's R&D when it comes to making cards.
It's actually unlimited now, if you really wanted to come back to it.
(I wouldn't recommend playing YGO again thought....)
@Ulfsaar: The YuGi judges have an acronym for that. BKSS. Because Konami Says So.
It really is stupid and contradictory at times. =/
Like this:
Green Baboon, Defender of the Forest for example. It used to been ruled that you activate his effect when a Beast type monster you control was destroyed in battle, that you can special summon him. Few years later, they changed it so that it you couldn't activate it when your Beast dies in battle. Then of course, they released Yellow Baboon, Archer of the Forest; that can be special summoned from your hand when a Beast monster dies in battle.
Seriously, it's like they changed Green's ruling not to make it less powerful, but so they have an excuse to release Yellow....It's conspiracy I tell you! A conspiracy!!!:argh:
Special thanks to XenoNinja of Heroes of the Plane Studios for the awesome avy!
Bah. The YGO OCG was released in 1999, only 6 years after Magic, and frankly until fairly recently Wizard's seemed okay with creating obviously powerful cards and degenerate interactions. That being said, YGO was created because there was a card game in the anime and manga and it was a money making opportunity. Dozens and dozens of TCG's are released in Japan every year and many are based on popular anime and manga. The creators of YGO didn't forsee that the game they created would become as popular as it did and so concepts like balance or good design didn't figure into the early sets of the game. YGO is the 3rd oldest running TCG, behind Magic and L5R, and so other TCG's are learning from it, not the other way around.
Yugioh was actually a hugely fun game to play when I started going to tournaments. Overtime though, so start to notice a few key things:
1) Tribal based strategies are usually dominant (either by creature type or "theme")
Think if all of magic was based on lorewyn block. Tribal strategies are usually dominant because both the sets and the show the card game is based on is pretty devoted to having support planted in a theme. Think of it like if Rise from the Grave only brought back black monsters. You couldn't really mix and match themes like you can colors in magic, it would dilute the power of your deck way too much.
2) Power creep is constantly out of hand, and the ban list played far too much of a role
It seemed like in an effort to balance out the most powerful cards in the game, konami would just print more powerful cards. If the cards were still too powerful, they would ban them until they've released stupid enough cards that they aren't that bad by comparison, then proceed to unban them.
3) Synchros were a huge mistake in general
Synchros were a new class of creature cards that essentially acted as a toolbox of powerhouses to trump anything else on the field. As more and more were released, and easier methods were gained for summoning them, it pretty much became a requirement to run them or lose (unless you played lightsworn, aka dredge, a graveyard strategy so powerful it pretty much ignored everything else)
4) The ban list could put a card at 2 or 1, not just 3 or 0. (think vintage)
This is an issue that stifles a ton of creativity in deckbuilding. Because a lot of cards are at one, but not banned, almost every deck would run the same suite of power cards (torrential tribute, mystical space typhoon, mirror force, solemn judgment, etc)
5) The game was more luck based, but not in a fun way
a- The dice roll to see who went first was incredibly relevant to who won
This is because the second player didn't get an extra draw or anything, the opening player just wasn't allowed to attack. Yugioh works where traps have to be set for a turn before you can activate them, so the opening player had a huge advantage in being able to set his first
b- The singular power of cards
Topdecking a single card could win you the game outright, even when having a terrible boardstate. The fact that brain control (act of treason) is pretty telling of the power level of cards
c- no mulligans
Yeah. sometimes you just lost.
6) Tcg vs Ocg, secondary market prices, $$$ etc
Quick rundown: Ocg = japan, Tcg = everywhere else. You can't run OCG cards in the TCG, and this this lets konami do fun things to make sure they sell more cardboard
As an example: Dark armed dragon is released as a rare (uncommon) in the OCG. He is promptly found to be incredibly powerful, and everyone plays him. Fast forward 2-3 months to his release in the TCG (sets come out in the OCG before the TCG). Dark armed dragon is a secret rare (super-mythic rare), which promptly puts his secondary market prices in the hundreds.
*As a quick note, yugioh is more expensive than magic, but not by much unfortunately
7) The game simply was not constructed that well, leading to weird rulings (aka Because Konami Says So, BKSS)
Seriously, there are some really screwed up interactions between cards that never should have been allowed to happen in the first place. If you want an example, look up Brain Golem versus DNA Surgery. Dunno is they resolved that one, might be an infinite loop (meaning that you're not legally allowed to activate the second card). Don't even get me started on rulings that seemed to be made just to make their new cards work better...
8) I hate the player base.
The stuff they tell you about people stealing cards is true. I don't know how it happened, but over the years, yugioh just seemed to draw a ton of scummy people into the game. Seriously, go to regional, the place is filled with this odd mix of nerds and gangsters...
I could really go on, but in short, yugioh is a sinking ship in my eyes. It was fun while it lasted, but... i dunno, things just started to decay for me. Shame.
Legacy: B currently brewing... W
EDH: RRosheen Meanderer G
Add better cards to sets:
Honestly this one needs to be done. I am currently building a werewolf deck from the newest magic set, innistrad. 3/4 0f the deck is from this set. I want to see more of this is yugioh.
Add more formats:
I have only this to say: Commander. Look at what this did to magic. It was a giant success.
Better tournament Structure:
You need more competitive play opportunities. Look a the pro tour and how they do it. They record the matches and post them on youtube and everything. I swear its like ESPN!! LoL.
Duel Disks:
I know this will probably not happen, but if they make some type of duel disk system, I know alot of people will come to the game or com back to the game. Make one and get off your asses Konami!!
When it comes to Magic nowadays, I think their tournament structure could use some improving. For one make Standard less expensive than Legacy, fix the Modern format where Combo is still viable with checks and counters, and bring back FNM's and Player Rewards in the game. Really If Wizards did that it would be a godsend. Maybe bring back Countermagic and give other colors checks and counters to them but that would break their color wheel policy.
Yu-Gi-Oh! on the other hand, I don't know. I'd scrape the Advanced Format and change it to a Set Rotation format like every other TCG. Unban cards that were recently printed that synergize with older cards and rotate out the format down to like 6 expansions up to the current expansion. Sure players will complain but think of why power creep has always been a huge problem for the game itself? By attaining access to older cards that aren't meant to synergize with currently released cards that can lead to problems in a given format.
If it were up to me I would just reboot the entire TCG and have FUNimation redub the Original Anime/Manga series to get players back into the game If they are up to the task to help flow in that classic nostalgia of the franchise itself and maybe while fixing the game bring back classic cards that we all know and love but with an ACTUAL resource system and and cost to pay for playing specific cards. Yu-Gi-Oh!'s current system is broke beyond repair, anyone who says otherwise is in denial.
Well I will tell you one thing, making corny and ridiculous Monster cards like that one that's a fusion of a Dandelion and a Lion doesn't cut it. The Toon World gimmick was great for awhile until Konami got out of hand with it and designed monsters based on some of the dumbest ideas imaginable.
At least World of Warcraft TCG is good with their sense of humor of cards and so is Magic as well. Combo decks on the other hand heck back when I played the closest thing to a combo was with Magical Scientist and Catapult Turtle with Fusion Monsters like Cyber-Stein or something else. It's been years since I've played so yeah that explains why my memory of it is kind of fuzzy.
Add more formats where players are spending more than a bank account
on decks? Yu-Gi-Oh! is already expensive enough. Instead of ruining card rarity to downgrade card prices at least keep their rarities while dropping their price down somehow. Commander in Yu-Gi-Oh! would just be weird and I'm not sure If it would work. But the thought of a Dark Magician Commander deck versus oh say one on Blue-Eyes White Dragon would be amazing though.
I started noticing that when I played Yu-Gi-Oh! as well, I guess it got out of hand with Warriors I suppose as well as Machines with Limiter Remover and Jinzo one of the last decks I played before I quit.
Yeah all this flip-flopping that Konami does with cards is annoying and as a result players lose money on cards they planned to run. Why do they proceed to do that when most
Yu-Gi-Oh! players take it for granted?
I got out before Synchro Monsters were introduced but I saw them before from some of my friends and I was like, "What was wrong with Fusion Monsters?" Were they that terrible to play?
You bring up one of the things that grinds my gears on Yu-Gi-Oh! that most current players are in denial about. It's never a good idea to stifle creative deck building by banning and restricting cards to 1 or 2 per deck because it hurts deck consistency to increase your odds of drawing what you need in a game. Heck the amount of cards you can run in a Yu-Gi-Oh! deck should be 60 cards like every other TCG/CCG instead of it being just 40-50.
Slap a resource cost to play Spell and Trap cards in this game besides Monsters other than Tribute Summons and the like and I think Konami might have it made but alas they don't know any better so yeah. It's epic fail on their part which is a shame. Errating cards instead of banning or restricting them to 1 or 2 per deck is fine as long as it involves common sense instead of spamming countless erratas just to solve problems when it leads more to confusion in the longrun.
I've always wondered why there are no mulligans in Yu-Gi-Oh!, they need to fix that. There is always a problem when the luck of a TCG/CCG overrides the skill of it in general. If you want consistency and balance you need a good balance of both and the problem is that Yu-Gi-Oh! was flawed severely in design from the very start. We didn't start to buy into it until we saw the problems head on like with the Chaos fiasco with CED and
Yata Lock.
Of course there were Exodia decks back in the day as a cheap wincon as well If you had the cards to play it out of course. One of my friends told me about this revised Exodia deck that was stupid broken, I think it had something to do with drawing out your entire deck without losing or something I can't remember too clearly it's been awhile though. I've lost against Exodia and Yata Lock and those decks aren't fun to play against.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
In competitive Yugioh, a misplay WILL cost you the game. I promise you that.
Well, unless you are absolutely dominating them, but then that can run with Magic, too.
That is completely untrue. Oh my goodness gracious, can you please get a clue before you start making posts? There are PLENTY of hybrid decks, as well as a lot of good plain synergy decks than can be brewed up and do well at a YCS. I happens all the time.
It changes every 6 months.
1. The game is already a load of crap. sets, out of more than 85 cards, have like only 2-10 playable cards. Tour guide of the underworld: $200. If there were more playable decks, then the most this card would go to is 100. I would rather every deck be overpowered then have s few powerful decks.
2. I was using commander as an example. I could have used vintage, legacy, sealed deck(why this one isn't in yugioh ill never no) etc.
Not really, I've seen people topdeck their way out of subpar plays and proceed to win 10 times in Yugioh to every 1 time I've seen it happen in Magic.
Have you even looked at the top 8 for YCS? They are all well known top tier archetypes, with maybe the exception of Karakuri, but I have no idea if that deck is top tier or not. Rabbit is brand new but everyone already knows the general idea of the deck (which the top 8 shows).
"In a world where money talks, silence is horrifying."
Ashcoat Bear of Limited
This is what I've heard. I've also heard that Pokemon is infinitely more enjoyable than YGO, and by this point is just as complex and competitive. If you're looking for something to play on the side of MtG, I'd go with that personally.
Eww
- no mulliganing. Seriously. WHY CANT YOU MULLIGAN?
- no FoW. I remember having someone show me how he can T1 kill on the pay 50% of the time (which I do think gets fixed by banning, but yeah)
- Design. The banned/restrict list is like at least twice long as Vintage's restricted/banned list, srsly.