Diablo III

  • #104
    Ah, I see you've played all the way through Inferno, how is it? Wink

    More seriously, have you played the beta? With what classes? To 13? As someone who played all 5 to 13 a few patches back, I disagree.

    What was your favourite part of D2 customization? Taking just enough str/dex to carry your choice gear and pumping all the rest into vit, or putting 1 point in each skill on the tree to your final goal at 30 and and playing all the way through to Nightmare before you got to assign anything else?

    As for the No True Diablosman, I disagree even more vehemently. I played through Torchlight twice, and while a fine game in its own right, it's a Diablo 2 successor in that you use 1-2 skills constantly and there's a vested interest in hording skill points like they're made of gold wrapped Jessica Albas. Was on a third playthrough when I got tired of how same'y everything was.

    The only thing that they really improved upon was using the dog to sell junk, and D3's ability to sell in the field does that better.

    Diablo 2's customization is built on avoiding traps in character design, and picking which of a handful of top tier skills you wanted to use (minor hyperbole). As much as WOTC loves 'bad cards', it's not necessarily something that one wants to base an entire game around. D3's will allow for choice at will (skill swapping) while still requiring emphasis on a build (gearing appropriately) with the two feeding into one another synergistically, rather than simply "get *unique of choice here*, put *runeword of choice here* onto Merc, farm ubers by throwing a million *insert skill here*"
    Last edited by Forar: 4/23/2012 8:38:37 AM
  • #105
    Min-max and theorycrafting still have a huge timesink in D3 based on available information and it's a bit that's not fully available in the beta.

    Gems and gear: One has 0% available, the other has about 10% of one of 4 modes available.

    Not to mention the specs themselves while you do have respecs on the fly so to speak, there's definite choices to be made each time - even at 13 there's a large difference in many of the specs, and generally no clear victor. (And of course, with using the "no Primary/Secondary/etc" option you'll be able to have a ton more options than normal as well)

    Being able to screw up your build is a bad thing in gaming for a long time now - respecs exist in EVERYTHING these days for a reason.

    I do agree that I'd prefer to see the swap time reduced to make it so you need to be a bit more tactical about respecs rather than being able to on the fly as it its right now, but eh - doesn't ruin the game or anything, just a personal preference.
    Quote from blueconcept
    Black Lotus is a vanilla creature. Deadbore is a counterspell. Artifacts are lands.

    Dungeons and Dragons is an operating system. Baldur's Gate is a magic card. Experience is reasoning. Reasoning is experience.


    Re: People misusing the term Vanilla to describe a flying, unleash (sometimes trample) critter.
  • #106
    I have played further than the tiny beta up to skeleton king available to public ( It's actually about on par with blood raven from D2 in amount.) and that's all I can say Smile
    Ofc your entitle to your opinions and indeed there are many millions like you who prefer everything casualised which is largely why that is the route blizz have taken with WoW and Diablo.
    My opinions here reflect my own personal opinion.

    P.S You can't disagree on it not being true diablo team >
    Diablo 2 was designed by Max Schaefers team and Blizz bought the company 5 months before it's release (well into development) and created blizzard north.
    Blizz north then left to form Runic games which has torchlight franchise.

    Diablo 3 is diablo in name only, it is a new breed of game and one that will sell millions. It is a fantastic game in it's own right but it is not like diablo 1 and 2 but more like WoW (well MoP version any way) in that it focuses on removing the "difficult" choices and instead wants accesibility and ease of use interface, which as mentioned is preferable to the larger populous.

    I am not against diablo3 , I will be playing it the same as millions of others. I just think it isn't a true sequel.
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  • #107
    I'd put it more on par with the Countess myself, but that's nitpicking.

    Who said anything about making the game "casualized"? I appreciate them making an effort to make the game accessible, but that's not mutually exclusive with it being possible to have depth present. You still haven't said what made D2's system superior, merely that you feel it is. Why is it preferable to have locked in skills, and only use one or two (for the vast majority at least) versus flexability (backed by gear focus and affixes that will need tweaking to make a new build truly sing).

    And why is Max Schaefer and/or his team's involvement necessary for it to be a "true diablo sequel"? Both D2 and D3 are the result of untold man hours across multiple years by hundreds (maybe thousands) of artists, programmers, designers, etc. There's a flowchart image that shows the evolution of Blizzard's Big Names across the series, and all of them have seen dramatic drift.

    I appreciate the work he and they did, but Torchlight 1 was by no means a genre changing game. It was very much "Diablo 2.5: more clicking with 1-2 skills and better graphics". I wish them well with TL2, but I'll probably wait for a Steam sale before dropping any money on it if the first game is any indication.

    Having a solid pedigree doesn't necessarily insure anything. Flagship Studios was formed by Ex-Blizzard employees (including Bill Roper and Max Schaefer, among others), and Hellgate: London was pretty much a steaming pile of crap that did one thing right (individual loot), which D3 is also doing (I'm seeing a pattern here...)

    And while we're No True Diablo'ing, D2 differed vastly from D1. Running? Open areas? Where are my cursed items? What are these gem and rune things? Why can't my Barbarian cast Apocalypse? Why don't any of the monsters give permanent stat reductions?

    Need I go on?

    Adjusting a game's mechanics for the times isn't a bad thing. It's a sign that the developers are aware that over a decade has passed since D2/LoD, and making "D2: with better graphics" while ignoring those advances would be foolish. Hell, it's the very problem I have with what I've read of the D&D Next/5th Ed.

    Is Aliens not a sequel to Alien? The latter is a top notch Thriller, the former is one of the finest sci-fi action movies ever made. The enemy is mostly the same but the details are vastly different. By your logic, it's not a "true sequel".
    Last edited by Forar: 4/23/2012 2:32:13 PM
  • #108
    If what you're saying is true you're a Blizzard employee or you're lying/pirating. Friends & Family beta is the highest allowed to nonemployees and the friend I played via has no further access and has F&F from his old buddy Furor. (He's old days FoH)
    Quote from blueconcept
    Black Lotus is a vanilla creature. Deadbore is a counterspell. Artifacts are lands.

    Dungeons and Dragons is an operating system. Baldur's Gate is a magic card. Experience is reasoning. Reasoning is experience.


    Re: People misusing the term Vanilla to describe a flying, unleash (sometimes trample) critter.
  • #109
    Quote from Belgareth
    Disagree Forar. They have reduced customization to practically 0.
    There are obvious cookie-cutter builds for all classes and while you might not care about extracting 2% more dps, they have said Inferno will require the very best so anyone wanting to farm top end gear will take the best spec.
    D2 actually opened more options , Sorcs had Orb/meteor , hydra , thunder sorcs
    all equally good. Javazons/strafeazon/multizon/tankazon etc etc etc

    D3 inherently has 1 best build because everyone has access to same skills/runes and their are no limits with trees.

    Theorycrafting and min/maxing is kinda my hobby and d3 makes it incredibly easy.

    I am not saying d3 is worse than d2 just that d3 isn't diablo it is a different game using the diablo license as a skin.

    Runic games contains the true diablo team now (as shown by torchlight which was the true successor to diablo 2).


    In theory everyone has access to the same card pool, yet there isn't one best Legacy deck.

    Torchlight is hardly a successor to d2, it's basically a remake of d1 with some d2 elements thrown in to modernize it.
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  • #110
    And Torchlight while great has suffered from budget limitations - and besides Hellgate London proves they aren't always the best at guiding future success of the format. (I loved HG:L though)
    Quote from blueconcept
    Black Lotus is a vanilla creature. Deadbore is a counterspell. Artifacts are lands.

    Dungeons and Dragons is an operating system. Baldur's Gate is a magic card. Experience is reasoning. Reasoning is experience.


    Re: People misusing the term Vanilla to describe a flying, unleash (sometimes trample) critter.
  • #111
    There's been some hacking of the D3 beta client that opened up a few new zones. Not sure if people have hacked much further than that with the digital download version, but it wouldn't surprise me.

    Not really sure what the big deal is, especially with d3 vs. torchlight. Torchlight was a decent game, but ended up being a technologically superior but technically inferior version of diablo 2. I like being able to toy around with skills rather than becoming super proficient in only two, and the auto stat allocation is...eh? It's not like allocating stats was a big part of d2. They were largely irrelevant in terms of their impact on your combat attributes, you'd need several levels worth of stats to bump your damage range by a point, when by the time you reached nightmare damage numbers were figured into the thousands, and Hell mode had calculated damage in the tens of thousands.
  • #112
    Damn, you guys are getting me depressed about this release. I've have been waiting for this game for LITERALLY 8-10 years. Slowly but surely I've noticed Blizz taking the game in the wrong directions. "Oh hey guys, btw we took ALL the runes out for customizing skills (cool idea), and now everybody just gets them all through leveling." "Oh hey guys, we've had 10 years buttttt no PVP at launch sry." Words like "Casualized" and "Restrictive" seem to be popping up more and more and it's really getting me quite upset. For a game I've waited this long for, it's sure looking like Blizzard is ready to ruin it for the original fanbase who spent years of their lives maxing out characters in hardcore mode in D2.

    I can see it already, and the game hasn't even launched yet. That's a bad sign. Customization was HALF the fun of Diablo 2. And I can already see customization has been severely limited in what I've seen so far. Auto stat building? Auto skill choosing? Auto rune unlocking? The skill system has me more worried then anything. I mean damn, how are we supposed to make our character OURS. We can't even customize the character model. Every level 60 Wizard will have all the same skills, at all the same levels, with all the same "skillrunes" unlocked, with all the same attributes, as every other level 60 Wizard. That right there is just sad.

    And I know what you guys are thinking, wow another dude who's trying to hate on blizzard without even playing the full game yet. I'm not, I'm just a man who has been waiting 10 years for a game that is finally coming out in less than a month and is looking less and less appealing as true gamers start coming out about how the game REALLY is. Frankly, I'm pissed off. I will buy this game, I HAVE to buy this game. But if it ends up how it looks like it will now, I will be infinitely disappointed, and I will never buy anything from Blizzard ever again. Taking a game from my childhood and bastardizing into a top-down WoW clone, I really hope you're all wrong.
    Last edited by Believeinapathy: 4/23/2012 11:37:20 PM
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  • #113
    The dropped runes for skills had to be changed to what they were the minute they went with the RMAH concept - either they needed to be super common, cosmetic only, or they'd have people trying to gouge an arm and a leg for the 'perfect' ones.

    Given that RMAH is going to fund the servers so it can be F2P its an acceptable sacrifice - I'd rather every pay $10-15/mo with no RMAH. But alas...
    Quote from blueconcept
    Black Lotus is a vanilla creature. Deadbore is a counterspell. Artifacts are lands.

    Dungeons and Dragons is an operating system. Baldur's Gate is a magic card. Experience is reasoning. Reasoning is experience.


    Re: People misusing the term Vanilla to describe a flying, unleash (sometimes trample) critter.
  • #114
    I think 99% of smart people would prefer the RMAH didn't exist and it's not just there to support servers it is there to run the black market in blizz hands instead of some korean gold sellers hands.

    @Believeinapathy : Finally someone who understands. I feel exactly like you solely because diablo was the franchise that got me into gaming on pc. Diablo 2 I spent too many years to count playing and still dabble in now. Diablo 3 from what I have played I will certainly play but I won't be addicted like I was to d2, I will likely pick it up and play with friends occasionally but treat it for what it is.
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  • #115
    I'm not worried about the RMAH. I'm not (too) worried about streamlined stats. Vanilla WoW was doing this as well, and the game delivered amazing customizable PvP (they've since destroyed that, but I haven't played d3 enough to see if this is the same). I assume they're going to make team based PvP a thing at some point, and runes are basically your customized abilities, which will work better in certain combinations ideally, and which will have versatility by that nature.

    The game looks nothing like a Diablo game has to me. But game producers want to make money just like any other mass-producing business, and this is going to result in streamlining and appeasement to the more casual (the larger) audience. Whether or not this means D3 is going to be the best it can be is pure biased speculation, and we'll have to wait and see if it's a good game in its own respect, and not just in respect to its predecessors.

    That being said, after open beta, I'm not sure I'm going to buy the game on release. I don't have enough friends to play with and it doesn't feel nearly as fun as D2 single player.
    "If you're Havengul problems I feel bad for you son, I got 99 problems and a Lich ain't one." - FSM
    "In a world where money talks, silence is horrifying."

    Ashcoat Bear of Limited
  • #116
    Quote from Ulfsaar
    Torchlight is hardly a successor to d2, it's basically a remake of d1 with some d2 elements thrown in to modernize it.


    I was going to make a snarky comment along the lines of "Diablo 2.5? More like Diablo 1.1! Amirite!?"

    I never could understand the fascination with the original Torchlight. It played nearly exactly like Diablo 1, sans multiplayer, only it was about 15 years late to the party. I struggled to make it through the first playthrough, let alone multiple runs (and not due to difficulty). More than anything, I think it showed how starved this genre is. Not for lack of imitation - but just lack of halfway quality products.

    Re: The streamlining & 'modernization':
    Seems like we just had this conversation, only replace "Diablo" with "The Elder Scrolls" and "Mass Effect". Can't say if Blizzard's system is going to work out or not, but this process can be and has been done very successfully.
  • #117
    To give some people who are confused about character customization in D3 some info/reading material, this is an updated version of an old post that seems to fairly thoroughly break down the differences in customization between D2 and D3.

    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/3811455085?page=1

    Edit: looks like the skill point entry might be slightly out of date, as it mentions buying runes on the AH.

    Edit 2: fun fact; according to Steam stats, only 20% of players who own Torchlight on that platform have beaten the game on easy or normal. Though to be fair, only 88% have even played a few minutes of the game at all.
    Last edited by Forar: 4/24/2012 10:15:02 AM
  • #118
    Forar - Steam stats aren't that useful - there's a large number (myself included) that don't keep the Steam client running in active mode, thus no updates for achievements.

    [In my case, since the wife and I both use the same Steam account - she's generally got it logged on]
    Quote from blueconcept
    Black Lotus is a vanilla creature. Deadbore is a counterspell. Artifacts are lands.

    Dungeons and Dragons is an operating system. Baldur's Gate is a magic card. Experience is reasoning. Reasoning is experience.


    Re: People misusing the term Vanilla to describe a flying, unleash (sometimes trample) critter.
  • #119
    I'm aware of that, my girlfriend does the same thing, meaning her Portal achievements are wonky as hell, depending on when she played and remembered to log out or not.

    However, given the gamer stereotype of achievement chasing, I have a hard time believing those people make up a terribly skewing portion of the playerbase. Hell, even if you assume EVERYONE who falls under the 12% that own the game but never even got the 'players first achievement', that's only 1/3 of the playerbase who have finished it, and we both know that's not the case. I'd split the difference and say that maybe 1/4 finished it, and even that's probably being generous.

    Edit: Of course, a portion of those players are likely also people who bought it while it was on a $5 sale. I know I've got a sizable backlog on my account, made up heavily of games bought during sales for $5-10 because they were 50-80% off and I wanted to have access to them some day with it being likely that even years from now, they'd be around that price after a decrease, or not much cheaper even on sale.
  • #120
    Nod, just I'd expect the "bootup" achievement is especially skewed - I'd imagine most of the "beat it" people are correct. (like 10-15% off for "simple" achievements, 1-2% off for lengthy ones)

    But with the "played the game for 30 min" achievements, those should all be 95%+, maybe 5% would leave a game on backlog any length of time without giving it a few minutes to try and/or have a gifted copy they've not started playing from a friend.
    Quote from blueconcept
    Black Lotus is a vanilla creature. Deadbore is a counterspell. Artifacts are lands.

    Dungeons and Dragons is an operating system. Baldur's Gate is a magic card. Experience is reasoning. Reasoning is experience.


    Re: People misusing the term Vanilla to describe a flying, unleash (sometimes trample) critter.
  • #121
    I just read this whole thread, and I must say I am so surprised it took until page 7 for the Diablo 3 vs. Torchlight discussions to start popping up! Rofl

    On a serious side though, the Diablo series is what hooked me hardcore into PC gaming back in 90s. I played Diablo for hours in Battle.net, and played Diablo 2 for more way more hours than I should admit. I have played through the beta, and I must say that whether this is my nostalgia talking or whatever but this game did not seem like Diablo. It felt more like an Action RPG with a World of Warcraft spin on it. Please keep in mind that I am not saying that it was not fun, but it just did not feel like the Diablo I loved back in the day.

    Personally (and this is my opinion only) I have not been happy in the direction Blizzard has been going in the past few years, and some of the decisions that have been made with Diablo 3 grate on me. It is for those reasons I will not be buying Diablo 3 on release.

    I will be purchasing Torchlight 2 on the release day though. I have had a chance to play a small portion of Torchlight 2, and man is that game a blast! The combat is so much faster and more visceral feeling in comparison. And the open world aspect with multiplayer just seemed to blow the "smallness" of Torchlight wide open. I was able to play with 3 others in the same game, and it was a rush on Elite difficulty (the game's hardest difficulty level). Also, I cannot be certain but from what I observed the itemization in Torchlight 2 is far superior than the first game.

    :symg:Rathmaker:symg:
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  • #122
  • #123
    It's not a huge financial burden to buy Diablo 3 and Torchlight 2.

    I mean you can play all 3 of the new Diablo style games for 80-90 bucks.

    Since Path of Exile is free except for vanity items and other nifty things to have.
    Torchlight 2 will cost 20-30 bucks at most.
    Diablo 3 confirmed at 59.99 for base game.

    So 80-90 bucks, definitely not a huge financial deal to own all of them.

    I can only see having to choose between them for most consumers if you have a limited amount of time to play video games.

    Feel free to bid on my cards here!
  • #124
    Being remotely like diablo 1 or 2 in more than name and having Cain and Tyrael would help Wink

    Actually thinking about it , If you ignore the fact it uses guns instead of medieval weaponary Borderlands was more diablo-esque.

    Rath-maker , Believeinapathy, ulfsaar and myself all came to conclusion it doesnt feel like diablo so clearly there is something there and it's a valid opinion no matter how much you argue otherwise forar.

    Summary : Diablo 3 good action rpg with wow elements but not a true successor to the diablo name.

    Diablo3 feels too "on-rails" , the skills are ordered the maps are not as open.

    Though again I am not against d3 it just is not a diablo game as 3 hardcore fans in this thread have already said.
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    Quote from VestDan »

    Btw, Belgareth... could you give the rest of us awesomeness lessons? Please?

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    Belgareth, I second the quote in your sig. You should teach a class.
  • #125
    I saw this preview...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=sCdbdsFgNGI
    - Preview of Lineage Eternal. It looks like so much fun. Diablo-ish MMORPG made by NCsoft, release 2012-2013
    - This game has some neat features. All cutscenes transition directly into gameplay, so if you see the Battle of Helms deeps and thousands of orcs... thats what you fight against. Its done really well.
    - The fighter feels hefty. Really reminds me of Gutz. I never play warriors but damn I want to play this one.

    Just check out the warrior and mage. They are so awesome. I wish Diablo3 had new concepts like this. This game just looks fun.
    Last edited by Catmurderer: 4/24/2012 3:26:21 PM
  • #126
    Quote from Forar
    @Rathmaker, out of curiosity, what would make D3 "more diablo like"?


    The first thing that jumped out at me was the game feels to move at a slower pace than Diablo 2 (maybe I should have made that statement clearer as we had to WALK everywhere in Diablo lol). I like my aRPGs to be fast paced and furious. I did not get that feeling from the beta.

    The next thing that caught my attention was the item descriptions in the interface. When I picked up a piece of loot I did not get that "ooh cool" feeling I normally get in aRPGs (to be fair after the first 30 or so levels in Torchlight the itemization went to hell as well). I really am not sure how to explain that in a more eloquent way other than they just did not excite me like the items in D2 did.

    Another thing I noticed was that the fights just seem so much on auto pilot (I hesitate to use the word casual). There was not guerrilla style fighting like you had to do at points in Diablo 1 and 2. I was just able to rush in and blow everything up with my Wizard. I am sure the game will get much more difficult in the later parts, but I was disappointed at how I could just steam roll in the beginning.

    I know that they have re-done the skill/attribute system, but I am not a fan of what we have been able to see so far in the beta. I am sure there is going to be more customization (as they have said), but it just felt so...un-exciting...when I leveled up. I guess maybe I personally like the illusion of choosing what skills I get as I progress. It ties me to my character more.

    Overall I did not get the blown in the back of my chair feeling that Diablo 2 gave me when first starting out. Once again I realize that statement may be my nostalgia talking (or my gaming preferences have changed as I have gotten older). In Diablo 2 running the Blood Moors and Cold Plains, and clearing the Den of Evil was a blast the first times through. And then the fight with Blood Raven and all those zombies was a rush. I never got that in the beta. The beta also felt to be on rails much more than a typical aRPG is (maybe I should blame the Sacred games and Reckoning for that one lol).

    I am definitely not saying the game was horrible. I enjoyed the beta, but it just wasn't something that made me want to keep playing it.

    :symg:Rathmaker:symg:
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  • #127
    Quote from Catmurderer
    I saw this preview...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=sCdbdsFgNGI
    - Preview of Lineage Eternal. It looks like so much fun. Diablo-ish MMORPG made by NCsoft, release 2012-2013
    - This game has some neat features. All cutscenes transition directly into gameplay, so if you see the Battle of Helms deeps and thousands of orcs... thats what you fight against. Its done really well.
    - The fighter feels hefty. Really reminds me of Gutz. I never play warriors but damn I want to play this one.

    Just check out the warrior and mage. They are so awesome. I wish Diablo3 had new concepts like this. This game just looks fun.


    If its anything like Lineage 2 thanks but no thanks.

    That game became mind numbingly boring at about 10 hours in for me.

    This is a sequel to their Lineage series which brings Korean style MMO grinding which makes the "grind" in any western MMO look like a joke in comparison.

    The preview looks decent but like I said Korean MMO's are notorious for having insane grind requirements to level.

    Feel free to bid on my cards here!
  • #128
    Quote from Belgareth
    Being remotely like diablo 1 or 2 in more than name and having Cain and Tyrael would help Wink


    having just played the open beta this weekend, I'm having a difficult time understanding how it was not diablo like...

    The only significant difference between diablo II and Diablo III that I could see was the fact that you have access to all your skills rather than being locked in to your (potentially poor) choices early on in the game.

    Quote from Belgareth

    Rath-maker , Believeinapathy, ulfsaar and myself all came to conclusion it doesnt feel like diablo so clearly there is something there and it's a valid opinion no matter how much you argue otherwise forar.


    I guess I'm kind of in his camp, but not firmly. Can you give me some discernable quality that is consistent between Diablo 1 and 2 that is lacking in Diablo III?

    I played it, looked at my wife (who was also playing it) and said. Hmm, feels like they took diablo II and updated it to include the 10 years of inovation that has occured since it came out.


    Quote from Belgareth

    Diablo3 feels too "on-rails" , the skills are ordered the maps are not as open.


    Wait, Wait, Wait, how was Diablo II not on rails? You had six quests. You did them.

    Quote from Belgareth

    Though again I am not against d3 it just is not a diablo game as 3 hardcore fans in this thread have already said.


    I guess you'll have to bullet point it out for me then: What makes something a Diablo game. A list, if you please.
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