League of Legends Season II

  • #4468
    This is my view on the matter of aggression.

    Preface: you know how most Elo hell threads say stuff like: "I always have positive KDA and have highest CS and win my lane." And you know how the typical response by higher Elo players is: "carry harder." Well, there is truth to that. Carrying harder does not come by passive play; you have to go hard in the paint. You have to use the skill differential between you and your opponent to its fullest and own them HARD. You aren't going to rise in Elo by being complacent and easily pleased by your performance.

    Now the first thing you want to do is test the waters. What exactly can you get away with in terms of harass? What is the skill differential between you and your opponent? I often look up the league profiles (courtesy of lolking.net) of my lane opponent so I know whether or not they are good with the champion they are playing and exactly how much more skilled I am than my opponent. This is valuable information.

    If you've found out that your opponent is (appreciably, hopefully) worse than you, take charge of your lane! Last hit and harass them. It's too easy.

    There are two cautions.

    1. Last hitting is still king. Harass them, but focus on last hitting over harass. Even having said this, there is still ample time to harass while cs-ing. It just takes practice!

    2. Keep an eye on the jungler and be passably familiar with the routes that jungler will take. You can do a lot without wards if you've this knowledge.

    [this is a sentence about how wards are cool and let you go balls deep and stuff]
    [this is a follow up sentence reminding people that EVERYONE needs to buy wards, not just support/jungler]
    [this is a terminating sentence reminding people that wards are key to owning harder, not just for when you are behind]
    Last edited by areostatico: 4/29/2012 2:50:39 AM
  • #4469
    So... just came from a game where one of my teammates pick veigar then proceeds to claim support... sigh

    Edit: So.. apparently im a noob for building Manamune on Ryze, when i explain why i build manamune they go "huh? ratios? LOL Noob!"... yeah what an awesome community i have over here.
    Last edited by Sepiriel: 4/29/2012 8:28:53 AM
    Quote from »
    Call me old fashioned, but an evil ascension to power just isn't the same without someone chanting faux Latin in the background.
    Oreo, Glazing people better than Dunkin' Donuts since 2009 Grin
    That is not dead which can eternal lie.
    And with strange eons even death may die.

  • #4470
    mid lane doesn't want to be aggressive. Heck, no lane wants to be aggressive. Pushing someone to turret means you lose CS as well (their minions stop on turret, and a few die where you can't last hit, while the people on the other team lose cs, so do you). Additionally, they at least gain exp, you sometimes (depends on positioning) can't without overextending too much. There is a reason pros only push so that all of the attacking minions die before the next wave arrives.

    Further, pushing opens yourself to ganks (in every lane), and even if you have an escape mechanism, you are losing out on possible cs.

    Also, the only time bot should ever have more cs than mid is if the support is being really really self sufficient, and taking <1cs per wave. Otherwise, the splitting of cs means that mid gets more cs than either of the champs on bot and the champ in jungle. Solo top however can out-cs mid in some cases, especially if both sides are bing passive and not engaging in anything more than poke-fests.
    Quote from Ninja Caterpie
    I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?

    When Aegis Angel is born?
    When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
    When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
    When Faerie Imposter busts in?
    When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
    When Malfegor shows up?
  • #4471
    It's not just over there, Sep. There are tools in every country's moba community.

    (Being aggressive doesn't mean pushing, per se. Take, for example, a kill lane bottom: Graves + Blitz, Leona + Panth, etc. These lanes are extremely aggressive, and it has nothing to do with pushing.)
    "If you're Havengul problems I feel bad for you son, I got 99 problems and a Lich ain't one." - FSM
    "In a world where money talks, silence is horrifying."

    Ashcoat Bear of Limited
  • #4472
    Quote from Glimyrpost
    Also, the only time bot should ever have more cs than mid is if the support is being really really self sufficient, and taking <1cs per wave. Otherwise, the splitting of cs means that mid gets more cs than either of the champs on bot and the champ in jungle.


    The support should not be taking any cs from the carry unless the carry has to go back to shop or is dead. Nothing drives me crazier than seeing my support taking cs from me, aside from them trying to "help" by auto-attacking creeps. I can usually time when to last hit to get every creep out of a wave, but when someone attacks one, it throws everything off. If you want to harass something, throw a banana at Kog, not at a minion please.
  • #4473
    Quote from Ravnos
    aside from them trying to "help" by auto-attacking creeps.


    Speaking of this, really good supports do help in assisting last hits by measuring them out so that the ad doesn't miss them. Specifically under the tower.
    "If you're Havengul problems I feel bad for you son, I got 99 problems and a Lich ain't one." - FSM
    "In a world where money talks, silence is horrifying."

    Ashcoat Bear of Limited
  • #4474
    Quote from Glimyrpost
    mid lane doesn't want to be aggressive. Heck, no lane wants to be aggressive. Pushing someone to turret means you lose CS as well (their minions stop on turret, and a few die where you can't last hit, while the people on the other team lose cs, so do you). Additionally, they at least gain exp, you sometimes (depends on positioning) can't without overextending too much. There is a reason pros only push so that all of the attacking minions die before the next wave arrives.


    This is wrong.

    For example, the reason why Sion counters LB is that he can push the wave to tower then roam. The reason why so many counterpicks are counters to champs that cannot easily CS without expending resources they don't want to is so that they can push to tower (and often go roam).

    Another case is where you don't apply pressure on your laning opponent. Sure you are denying your opponent CS by freezing the lane then zoning him, but this allows him to go roam. So you have to find a mix of zoning him while pushing toward his tower so that there is an ever-present risk that you will take his tower if he leaves.

    Finally, from watching Chaox (an AD bot savant) and from personal experience, it is actually possible to CS under an opponents tower. You might refer back to the post where I was Graves pushing to the opponents tower while doubling my opponents CS.

    Clarification: being aggressive doesn't mean pushing to tower. Being aggressive means harassing your opponent when he tries to CS or when he opens himself up to being attacked. Aggressive play can lead to pushing to the enemy's tower, but sometimes (as I've noted) that's a good thing.

    BETTER EXAMPLES OF AGGRESSIVE PLAY!:

    1. Teemo (ranged) vs. Nasus (melee). You're ranged and he's melee. You hit him while CSing. He rues the day he was born. Aggressive play while being safe. Boom~!
    2. Using your abilities and auto attacks to harass while still CSing. You make him miss CS by harassing him when he tries to CS. He rues the day he was born. Aggressive play while being safe. Boom~!

    Too many times I see people in normals going OOM and their opponent is mysteriously still at full hp/mana. CS with AA. Harass them with AA + skills (when appropriate). Boom~!
    Last edited by areostatico: 4/29/2012 1:13:32 PM
  • #4475
    Quote from areostatico
    This is wrong.

    For example, the reason why Sion counters LB is that he can push the wave to tower then roam. The reason why so many counterpicks are counters to champs that cannot easily CS without expending resources they don't want to is so that they can push to tower (and often go roam).

    Another case is where you don't apply pressure on your laning opponent. Sure you are denying your opponent CS by freezing the lane then zoning him, but this allows him to go roam. So you have to find a mix of zoning him while pushing toward his tower so that there is an ever-present risk that you will take his tower if he leaves.

    Finally, from watching Chaox (an AD bot savant) and from personal experience, it is actually possible to CS under an opponents tower. You might refer back to the post where I was Graves pushing to the opponents tower while doubling my opponents CS.

    Clarification: being aggressive doesn't mean pushing to tower. Being aggressive means harassing your opponent when he tries to CS or when he opens himself up to being attacked. Aggressive play can lead to pushing to the enemy's tower, but sometimes (as I've noted) that's a good thing.

    BETTER EXAMPLES OF AGGRESSIVE PLAY!:

    1. Teemo (ranged) vs. Nasus (melee). You're ranged and he's melee. You hit him while CSing. He rues the day he was born. Aggressive play while being safe. Boom~!
    2. Using your abilities and auto attacks to harass while still CSing. You make him miss CS by harassing him when he tries to CS. He rues the day he was born. Aggressive play while being safe. Boom~!

    Too many times I see people in normals going OOM and their opponent is mysteriously still at full hp/mana. CS with AA. Harass them with AA + skills (when appropriate). Boom~!






    This is going to be the last thing I say about this topic, since I've already spoken my peace.

    If you are in top or bot lane you can afford to be more aggressive, the paths to ganking you are longer and not as plentiful. If you are in the middle I have at least 6 potential ways to come up from behind you and depending on who I am EIGHT potential ways to quickly get to you. I've flashed from the jungle path of my turret straight into mid lane as Skarner and pulled an over extending mid right into our turret where she got nuked, I've dragoned one into our turret as Shyvana from the bushes, I've come up from their jungle behind their turrets to push them out and gank them. You are the most vulnerable in the middle and if you are playing aggressive all the time and your enemy team is competant YOU WILL BE PUNISHED.

    Now I'm not saying harassing is bad, no one is saying that, we are saying that playing constantly aggressive and pushing the lane can and will make you vulnerable to ganks and because of this it is a bad idea to try and constantly push the lane when you can farm it from a relatively close distance to your turret while still harassing and getting your CS.

    If you don't want to believe this that is fine keep being aggressive, keep pushing turrets and my jungler will camp you and make you free farm for me as well as the lane itself. I know people like to think they are all pro and can get away from any 2v1 gank situation and while it's possible to get away from a gank if all you do is make yourself gankbait the whole laning phase a competant jungler is going to ensure you are punished.
  • #4476
    Quote from SacredMesa
    This is going to be the last thing I say about this topic, since I've already spoken my peace.

    If you are in top or bot lane you can afford to be more aggressive, the paths to ganking you are longer and not as plentiful. If you are in the middle I have at least 6 potential ways to come up from behind you and depending on who I am EIGHT potential ways to quickly get to you. I've flashed from the jungle path of my turret straight into mid lane as Skarner and pulled an over extending mid right into our turret where she got nuked, I've dragoned one into our turret as Shyvana from the bushes, I've come up from their jungle behind their turrets to push them out and gank them. You are the most vulnerable in the middle and if you are playing aggressive all the time and your enemy team is competant YOU WILL BE PUNISHED.

    Now I'm not saying harassing is bad, no one is saying that, we are saying that playing constantly aggressive and pushing the lane can and will make you vulnerable to ganks and because of this it is a bad idea to try and constantly push the lane when you can farm it from a relatively close distance to your turret while still harassing and getting your CS.

    If you don't want to believe this that is fine keep being aggressive, keep pushing turrets and my jungler will camp you and make you free farm for me as well as the lane itself. I know people like to think they are all pro and can get away from any 2v1 gank situation and while it's possible to get away from a gank if all you do is make yourself gankbait the whole laning phase a competant jungler is going to ensure you are punished.


    I can agree with if you are at the same level as your opponents. If you are better than your opponents, aggressive play will reward you more than passive play.

    As for pushing to tower, my statements regarding that were made in response to the idea that pushing to tower is always a bad idea. Sometimes it is the right idea.
  • #4477
    Quote from SacredMesa
    This is going to be the last thing I say about this topic, since I've already spoken my peace.

    If you are in top or bot lane you can afford to be more aggressive, the paths to ganking you are longer and not as plentiful. If you are in the middle I have at least 6 potential ways to come up from behind you and depending on who I am EIGHT potential ways to quickly get to you. I've flashed from the jungle path of my turret straight into mid lane as Skarner and pulled an over extending mid right into our turret where she got nuked, I've dragoned one into our turret as Shyvana from the bushes, I've come up from their jungle behind their turrets to push them out and gank them. You are the most vulnerable in the middle and if you are playing aggressive all the time and your enemy team is competant YOU WILL BE PUNISHED.

    Now I'm not saying harassing is bad, no one is saying that, we are saying that playing constantly aggressive and pushing the lane can and will make you vulnerable to ganks and because of this it is a bad idea to try and constantly push the lane when you can farm it from a relatively close distance to your turret while still harassing and getting your CS.

    If you don't want to believe this that is fine keep being aggressive, keep pushing turrets and my jungler will camp you and make you free farm for me as well as the lane itself. I know people like to think they are all pro and can get away from any 2v1 gank situation and while it's possible to get away from a gank if all you do is make yourself gankbait the whole laning phase a competant jungler is going to ensure you are punished.



    Well there is being agressive and there is being stupid.

    Good aggressive pushers like morde, gragas, sion can typically push the lane and safely b off to wander (gragas and sion gank while morde often farms wraiths).


    Mids that can aggressively push their lane are important against other ap champs that do not have an effective way to clear waves quickly.
  • #4478
    Quote from Ravnos
    The support should not be taking any cs from the carry unless the carry has to go back to shop or is dead. Nothing drives me crazier than seeing my support taking cs from me, aside from them trying to "help" by auto-attacking creeps. I can usually time when to last hit to get every creep out of a wave, but when someone attacks one, it throws everything off. If you want to harass something, throw a banana at Kog, not at a minion please.

    It does depend. Getting the gp5 items earlier on a support is sometimes useful, but I do feel nice when I am at 20 mins, my lane partner has 170 cs, and I have 7, and I'm still fairly well built up.
    Quote from Umezete
    Well there is being agressive and there is being stupid.

    Good aggressive pushers like morde, gragas, sion can typically push the lane and safely b off to wander (gragas and sion gank while morde often farms wraiths).


    Mids that can aggressively push their lane are important against other ap champs that do not have an effective way to clear waves quickly.

    There is also a difference between being aggressive and poking/harassing. Harassing an opponent out of lane can be done by tons of champions, including many top supports. (I main lulu, she can zone out nearly anyone). Being aggressive on the other hand generally means pushing out past the middle of the lane, and opening yourself up to ganking and negative exchanges.
    Gragas, morde, and sion can all harass from a long distance, and zone opponents out of areas. They don't however spend the game at or past mid.

    When I played heimer a lot, I had that issue. He pushed so hard that I'd be stuck past the midline, and end up getting ganked by 2-3 people. That was agressive play. Harass isn't the same as aggressive, and although aggressive isn't always stupid, it is a lot of the time.
    Quote from Ninja Caterpie
    I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?

    When Aegis Angel is born?
    When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
    When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
    When Faerie Imposter busts in?
    When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
    When Malfegor shows up?
  • #4479
    Quote from Glimyrpost
    They don't however spend the game at or past mid.

    When I played heimer a lot, I had that issue. He pushed so hard that I'd be stuck past the midline, and end up getting ganked by 2-3 people. That was agressive play. Harass isn't the same as aggressive, and although aggressive isn't always stupid, it is a lot of the time.


    no one does but you can push past mid just don't stand there.

    As the champs I listed I often push the creeps to turret and b, actually committing past halfway if I see their jungler on map.
  • #4480
    Does anyone in this thread stream at all? I suppose it won't matter too much since they're implementing Spectator Mode shortly. Maybe it won't affect too many streamers unless they don't have a cap for spectating.
    Like DotA/HoN? You should definitely check out League of Legends

    Plus, if if you feel like watching a few games: My Stream
    I'm normally on most nights between 6pm-whenever.
  • #4481
    Quote from TreeBeard
    Does anyone in this thread stream at all? I suppose it won't matter too much since they're implementing Spectator Mode shortly. Maybe it won't affect too many streamers unless they don't have a cap for spectating.

    Well the benefit of streams is that people who arent in a specific server can still view high level play, also while spectator mode will be out there will still be many factors making streams a choice (location, specific players you may want to watch, limitations on spectators).
    Quote from »
    Call me old fashioned, but an evil ascension to power just isn't the same without someone chanting faux Latin in the background.
    Oreo, Glazing people better than Dunkin' Donuts since 2009 Grin
    That is not dead which can eternal lie.
    And with strange eons even death may die.

  • #4482
    Quote from TreeBeard
    Does anyone in this thread stream at all? I suppose it won't matter too much since they're implementing Spectator Mode shortly. Maybe it won't affect too many streamers unless they don't have a cap for spectating.


    I used to play with a guy that streamed. The problem was that unless you somehow got famous you never had more than 20 people watching you.

    Extra Special thanks to SushiOtter of Hakai Studios. (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
  • #4483
    Sigh... team insta locks Heimer, Ahiri, Lux... AND my jungle shen is going up against jungle noct... this should be fun.... *groans*

    Edit: How we won this game is beyond me... considering the Heim was 0/6 right before the end (ended 2/6), Ahiri was 2/7 before the end (ended 4/9) and Vayne, Lux and I were the only ones decent (i was 8/8/16)...
    Last edited by Sepiriel: 4/30/2012 8:35:16 AM
    Quote from »
    Call me old fashioned, but an evil ascension to power just isn't the same without someone chanting faux Latin in the background.
    Oreo, Glazing people better than Dunkin' Donuts since 2009 Grin
    That is not dead which can eternal lie.
    And with strange eons even death may die.

  • #4484
    Quote from areostatico
    I can agree with if you are at the same level as your opponents. If you are better than your opponents, aggressive play will reward you more than passive play.


    This. I 100% agree with this. If you are a notch or two above your lane opponent in skill, being aggressive can and usually will create a large income gap between the two of you. It's the best way to leverage your skill advantage. If the two of you are about equal skill, I generally opt for passive play. If you are behind your opponent in skill or just have a bad matchup, you generally want to create a situation that turns into a passive farmfest but still forces your opponent to stay in lane and not go roaming.

    Really, though, this all assumes that players are of a minimum skill level and are at least capable of last hitting the vast, vast majority of the creeps that come down their lane. If you're up against people that can't even last hit well, the priorities can completely change as their mistakes will be many.

    Quote from TreeBeard
    Does anyone in this thread stream at all? I suppose it won't matter too much since they're implementing Spectator Mode shortly. Maybe it won't affect too many streamers unless they don't have a cap for spectating.


    Hehe, I tried it a couple times, but just the slight FPS hit I have when recording pisses me off. I can't handle it. It just annoys me to no end.

    I'd like to see GLJ stream and give commentary, I think that'd be fun. (do it)

    I'm interested to see the impact Spectator mode will have on streaming. Personally, I hope none. I generally only watch streams when I'm unable to play or away from my gaming computer. If I've got time to sit down at home and open up the client, I want to be playing myself, not watching someone else. (unless it's a big event)
  • #4485
    Quote from TreeBeard
    Does anyone in this thread stream at all? I suppose it won't matter too much since they're implementing Spectator Mode shortly. Maybe it won't affect too many streamers unless they don't have a cap for spectating.


    My Facebook group does. We are League of Legends Long Island (LoLLI). You can check us out by doing a search for "League of Legends Long Island" on Facebook. Open group, plenty of locals who play, and tournaments with prize support that are free to enter (Season I coming up). We stream whenever we do 5v5/Dominion casuals. Usually get a good turnout on the stream.

    We use Twitch.tv for our stream, though have been giving consideration for own3D.tv as an alternative. I'm not sure what kind of impact spectator mode will have on streaming channels. I prefer streaming just because it allows viewers to chat while watching and it gives the streamer freedom to adjust settings, resolutions, and run commercials/ads when needed.
  • #4486
    So question, i just farmed 3700 IP ill post a list of the champs i can buy, any suggestions? (By the way the numbers besides a champ means how much that champ and the ones above cost)
    Karma
    Eve
    Anivia - 450
    Orianna - 1110
    Irelia
    Lux
    Swain
    Poppy
    janna
    Zil
    Ali
    Taric
    Cho
    Amumu - 2220
    Urgot
    Teemo
    TF - 3000
    Leona
    Malp
    Panth
    Ken
    Fiddle
    Blitz
    Kass
    Karth
    Twitch - 3330
    Or i could keep farming and choose one of the following:
    Vayne
    Brand
    Jarv
    Noct
    Morde
    Ez
    Jax
    Ww
    Singed
    Sona - 4440
    Wukong
    Cait
    LB
    Kat
    Akali
    Kog
    Tryn
    Shaco
    Xin - 5550
    Heca
    Lulu
    Naut
    Ziggs
    Sej
    Vik
    Voli
    Shyv - 6300
    Any suggestions?
    Quote from »
    Call me old fashioned, but an evil ascension to power just isn't the same without someone chanting faux Latin in the background.
    Oreo, Glazing people better than Dunkin' Donuts since 2009 Grin
    That is not dead which can eternal lie.
    And with strange eons even death may die.

  • #4487
    Quote from Sepiriel
    So question, i just farmed 3700 IP ill post a list of the champs i can buy, any suggestions? (By the way the numbers besides a champ means how much that champ and the ones above cost)
    Karma
    Eve
    Anivia - 450
    Orianna - 1110
    Irelia
    Lux
    Swain
    Poppy
    janna
    Zil
    Ali
    Taric
    Cho
    Amumu - 2220
    Urgot
    Teemo
    TF - 3000
    Leona
    Malp
    Panth
    Ken
    Fiddle
    Blitz
    Kass
    Karth
    Twitch - 3330
    Or i could keep farming and choose one of the following:
    Vayne
    Brand
    Jarv
    Noct
    Morde
    Ez
    Jax
    Ww
    Singed
    Sona - 4440
    Wukong
    Cait
    LB
    Kat
    Akali
    Kog
    Tryn
    Shaco
    Xin - 5550
    Heca
    Lulu
    Naut
    Ziggs
    Sej
    Vik
    Voli
    Shyv - 6300
    Any suggestions?


    I've really enjoyed playing Teemo, which you can play AD or AP. I also love Malphite because he is the first champion I bought and am for some reason a natural BOSS with him. If you really want actual good champions, you should go with champions like Wukong, Viktor for midlane (Lazzar!), Lux (Also LAZZZARR!), or Akali.

    I also have a question. Is Kennen any good AD? How should I play him, and have any of you played him AD, and if so what suggestions do you have for gameplay and items to buy?
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  • #4488
    Quote from Yoda64
    I also have a question. Is Kennen any good AD? How should I play him, and have any of you played him AD, and if so what suggestions do you have for gameplay and items to buy?


    Rush PD with him, then do the traditional ADC route of IE and LW/QSS/BT as needed.

    You want to play him as you'd a ADC.

    Quote from silex
    I'd like to see GLJ stream and give commentary, I think that'd be fun. (do it)


    What's even better is playing with him ^^

    He has a pretty good voice for commentary, and he is loads of fun as a teammate.
    Last edited by areostatico: 4/30/2012 1:10:57 PM
  • #4489
    Quote from silex

    I'd like to see GLJ stream and give commentary, I think that'd be fun. (do it)


    If I do, it's going to have to start after I move up to Dallas for summer. College finals are coming up next week and I have a geometric crapton of essays/work to do (that's why I haven't been on LoL or active in this forum thread recently). I'll figure it out and then do it. For clarity, I am registering a channel on own3d.tv; we shall see!

    Quote from areostatico

    What's even better is playing with him ^^

    He has a pretty good voice for commentary, and he is loads of fun as a teammate.


    Love
    Last edited by G L J: 4/30/2012 2:06:15 PM

    Extra Special thanks to SushiOtter of Hakai Studios. (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
  • #4490
    This is a good way to build solidarity between us MTGS peoples.

    We can do weekly inhouses or normals or something.

    This is the link to his stream: http://www.own3d.tv/G_L_J

    We can even plug this to the League boards and gain a bit of fame (and fangirls).
  • #4491
    Quote from areostatico

    This is the link to his stream: http://www.own3d.tv/G_L_J


    I spoke with you earlier while you helped me test the stream. Gonna do some games tonight on the newfangled stream. If anyone wants to participate or watch, we'll be starting at 4:30pm pacific, 6:30pm central, 7:30pm eastern. Probably going to go for 5-6 games. You don't have to be great/good/adequate to play, lets just have some fun.

    I'm free tonight, so consider this an event.

    inb4: Brolaf top-lane

    Extra Special thanks to SushiOtter of Hakai Studios. (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
  • #4492
    Well, i hope these planned games keep going, i have finals t/w/th and then im, heh, on free week.

    Went 19/8/8 with annie yesterday in solo queue, got paired with a 4queue and just rocked so hard. Their mid was solo queue paired with 4 and, while good, didnt blow people up like annie (even before patch, i never did defensive mid runes, pure offensive power)

    I wonder why i dont see annie more? Shes so good
    You can trust me, I work for the government
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