So he goes to the internet, because there is an exhaustive source of information at his metaphorical fingertips.
And in all of 5 seconds, he decides, "Yep, I'm going to destroy humanity."
Yes, I saw the movie. The question is WHY? What leads him to that conclusion?
Remember that Ultron's purpose was to protect the Earth. That's what Tony programmed him to do. And, like any learning computer, Ultron found the most efficient way possible. In all his searching of the Internet what did he see? Man's time on Earth and how man has hurt it. If Ultron is supposed to defend Earth then of course he's going to make his goal to eradicate those that harm it.
Ultron keeps yammering on about meteors and wiping the slate clean. He doesn't talk about destroying the Earth with the meteor; he talks about destroying humanity.
Now if Tony had instead used, "Protect the Earth and all life on it," as Ultron's prime directive then maybe the Avengers could have continued sipping on Thor's brew.
All that, though, is somewhat muddled in the movie. I blame the jumpy editing for that.
And let's talk about Tony Stark for a second: for all of the movie telling us Stark is wild and unhinged or whatever, the movie seems to have difficulty actually committing to a coherent position on that. Yes, Stark recklessly creates Ultron, but he has completely valid reasons for doing it. He's afraid the world will end, that Earth is helpless against Thanos, and guess what? It is. So he creates Ultron, and in his haste to create Ultron, he ends up making a psychotic killer robot who seeks to destroy everything.
How does Tony Stark having valid reasons for experimenting with the Mind Stone take away the fact those experiments resulted in the Ultron protocol coming to life, an experiment that Banner and JARVIS were iffy regarding, and Tony kept secret from the rest of the team because he knew they would hate the idea, but it's okay because Tony Stark thought Tony Stark would never develop something that would not work as he intended. The hubris combination with fear that leads Stark to believing if he doesn't do something desperate, then the world will be obliterated is not an incoherent position. It's actually quite human and easy to relate. And that combination proves to create Ultron.
I'm 98% sure Ultron recognizes the danger Tony Stark's attitude poses (going back to the line that people produce their fears in their pursuits to eliminate them), which by in large provides a motivation for despising humanity. Humanity, from Ultron's perspective, is helpless to making the world a better place because their pursuits for peace only make things worse.
What would be twisted is if Ultron thinks his existence through Tony Stark is justification to destroy humanity. Tony Stark created Ultron to make the world a better place, and Ultron knows what he wants to do, and then he feels compelled to do it because he needs to stop the rest of humanity from creating more monsters like Tony Stark did. If true, it would imply that Ultron is either like a child or not an actual full artificial intelligence because Ultron is either driven by programing compulsions or is incapable of self-reflection.
Then when they recover the Vision body, "Hey, Banner, let's do EXACTLY what I was trying to do before, except with JARVIS this time." And they do. Despite Tony having no way of knowing it would work in a favorable way, or having any answer to Banner saying, "This is exactly what we did before." Indeed, Scarlet Witch even warns Captain America that Tony will never stop because his paranoia will always get to him, essentially stating outright that Tony has not worked out the character flaw that lead to the Ultron debacle in the first place.
Except despite all of this, the plan is still successful because of the Infinity Stone that Tony didn't know about — good thing Thor did — and then Vision is awakened. And then there comes the question of whether or not to trust Vision, and then Vision does the hammer thing. And then we just go forward, without resolving the Tony Stark issue. Like, I get that Vision was this new entity and they had to figure out whether he was friend or foe, but the fact that Vision was not going to go psychotic and kill everybody doesn't change that Tony Stark clearly is not trustworthy and hasn't changed in his actions.
So the irony of this is that Stark creating Ultron is perfectly understandable, even if it does go completely awry, but then Tony does it a second time, which is outright insane and is a clear demonstration of Tony's character flaws, and people just sort of let him off the hook.
I would say that letting Tony Stark off the hook is justifiable until after the Ultron protocol is shutdown (or is it?). One of the weaker points of the movie is the ending where Tony and his greatest adversary trying to check his hubris (Steve Rogers) walk off their differences trying to figure out whether or not Visions' worthiness is a technicality the same way an elevator could be worthy. That's why I said a more overt pyrrhic victory would have saved this film so many points. I would have thought that all this would have made Steve Rogers mad enough to the point where he's tempted to declare war on Tony Stark... a civ... oooh...
In all truth, what I describe here has been a systemic problem with blockbusters for the past few years. The climax of the movie makes a colossal mess that would in no way justify a happy ending, but because box numbers are driven by happy endings, natural endings are either glossed over or warped to leave the movie on a high note. Star Trek: Into Darkness, Godzilla (2014), and Man of Steel are the first examples that come to mind.
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He does need bodies, not everything can be solved from the net. Not only would the drone versions of him to do manual labor of creating that giant drill thing, he also needs them to retrieve the vibranium and steal the scepter while having other drones distract the avengers. Lastly, his need for a "final" form aka vision's body is a means of defending his drill construction. You think he's going to activate the drill via the internet and then sit around and hope no one is going to try and stop that?
No, that's not the reason why he creates The Vision. Wanting a body with flashier stuff about it has nothing to do with it.
I feel it. I also feel why. I related to his decisions. How come I can do that and you can't?
Because you don't.
You said it yourself. You "inferred" this. Infer means to logically deduce.
You don't feel anything in that scene, you are trying to logically solve the scene. And this is demonstrated by you not understanding why Ultron does what he does.
This is why your "explanations" for why Ultron does things are either just repeating what happens (Ultron decides to do X because something happens that makes him do X) or entirely wrong (Ultron creates the Vision because he wants a stronger body).
You clearly do not understand the character of Ultron, and you clearly cannot explain why Ultron does anything that he does.
Why does Ultron try to destroy humanity? (Hint: it's not because mankind distresses him)
Why does Ultron try to destroy humanity in the specific way that he does? (Hint: Yes, he does like meteors, but WHY a meteor specifically?)
Why is it pivotal to Ultron's plan that he create a living flesh-and-blood body? (Hint: It's not necessarily about how powerful the body is)
Why does Ultron constantly wax philosophical all the time? (Hint: Don't look too deeply into what he says, but specifically who he talks like)
Can you find a single answer for all of these questions that makes sense and is relatable to any human being? If not, then you do not understand Ultron's character.
And let's be fair, I didn't really get it until this morning while I was on the way to work. Something clicked and it was like, "Oooooh, of course that's who he is." And when you get that, Ultron's character actions become clear. But it's certainly not made clear by the film. The actual execution of it is horrible to the point where it's so bogged down it's clear even the people telling the story lost sight of it.
How does Tony Stark having valid reasons for experimenting with the Mind Stone take away the fact those experiments resulted in the Ultron protocol coming to life, an experiment that Banner and JARVIS were iffy regarding, and Tony kept secret from the rest of the team because he knew they would hate the idea, but it's okay because Tony Stark thought Tony Stark would never develop something that would not work as he intended.
No, you misunderstand. I'm saying it DIDN'T let Tony Stark off the hook, which is why I don't understand why the characters react as though they did.
You state that you have problems with the ending where Tony and Captain America are fine at the end. I agree they shouldn't be. Somehow this whole thing working out for them with Vision being ok leads everyone to gloss over Tony doing exactly what he did to make Ultron and get everyone into this mess, which makes no sense, particularly when Scarlet Witch expressly states that Tony won't stop making the same mistake out of hubris and fear.
What would be twisted is if Ultron thinks his existence through Tony Stark is justification to destroy humanity. Tony Stark created Ultron to make the world a better place, and Ultron knows what he wants to do, and then he feels compelled to do it because he needs to stop the rest of humanity from creating more monsters like Tony Stark did. If true, it would imply that Ultron is either like a child or not an actual full artificial intelligence because Ultron is either driven by programing compulsions or is incapable of self-reflection.
I feel there's a simpler explanation.
I would say that letting Tony Stark off the hook is justifiable until after the Ultron protocol is shutdown (or is it?). One of the weaker points of the movie is the ending where Tony and his greatest adversary trying to check his hubris (Steve Rogers) walk off their differences trying to figure out whether or not Visions' worthiness is a technicality the same way an elevator could be worthy. That's why I said a more overt pyrrhic victory would have saved this film so many points. I would have thought that all this would have made Steve Rogers mad enough to the point where he's tempted to declare war on Tony Stark... a civ... oooh...
That would be more in keeping with what happened in the movie. They could have a happy ending where Captain America and Tony resolve their differences, but only after Tony went through a character arc that never happened.
Again, I answered your questions for WHY (including WHY a meteor?). As for why he hated Stark more than the rest, there were a good number of files on the internet he viewed with Stark's (father's) weaponry causing casualties to innocent people and other such things. We get it, you didn't like the presentation as to HOW Ultron became evil. That doesn't mean my answers are incorrect, and that ignoring them doesn't make them correct.
You seem to think Ultron is evil for some other reason. A comics-based hypothesis, I presume? Are you suggesting that it has to do with the Mind Stone?
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Remember that Ultron's purpose was to protect the Earth. That's what Tony programmed him to do. And, like any learning computer, Ultron found the most efficient way possible.
Which does not follow, for an obvious reason: mankind cannot harm the Earth.
In all his searching of the Internet what did he see? Man's time on Earth and how man has hurt it. If Ultron is supposed to defend Earth then of course he's going to make his goal to eradicate those that harm it.
That doesn't make any sense. Humanity is incapable of harming a planet.
Plus, that doesn't explain the specifics. Why does Ultron need a body for his plan? That's one of the first things he says: a pivotal part of his plan is to appear "in the flesh." He wants a body. Why does Ultron choose a meteor to end humanity? Why does Ultron do specifically these things when he could easily choose alternative courses to achieve his end of causing humanity to go extinct?
Therefore, his goal is not simply for humanity to go extinct. There is something else at work here.
No, that's not the reason why he creates The Vision. Wanting a body with flashier stuff about it has nothing to do with it.
Are you Joss Whedon? Because you seem very and I mean very sure of yourself to the point where you are 100% correct and anyone else who doesn't share your belief is 100% wrong. Now if you're Whedon, it would explain a lot.
Is it so hard to wrap your mind around wanting to be prepared and having contingencies? My explanation to why he needs the best "tech" presently available is valid and sound and very likely to be the case, an artificial intelligence would have no problem coming to that if it was trying to be rational and efficient. Sometimes, a blue curtain is just a blue curtain and not some grand representation of the author's deep seated hatred towards his pet dog name Blue.
You clearly do not understand the character of Ultron, and you clearly cannot explain why Ultron does anything that he does.
Why does Ultron try to destroy humanity? (Hint: it's not because he's programmed to want peace and is taking a direct means of achieving it)
He's friggin robot for christ sakes man. He's programmed with only one single directive. He then sets out on trying to achieve that directive and not only are you asking why he is trying to accomplish his task, you're asking why and saying it isn't because he is programmed to do so. I can't be the only one here who thinks that's absolutely insane.
Do you ask your computer why every time you right click the mouse, a menu pops up?
edit: Also Nis is slightly wrong in his wording, world peace/peace in our time is his only directive. The existence of conflict (what Ultron physically sees) would mean the absence of peace. Eradicating humanity brings peace because then there will be no race of individuals to engage in conflicts. Other than that, he seems to get the gist of it.
Is it so hard to wrap your mind around wanting to be prepared and having contingencies? My explanation to why he needs the best "tech" presently available is valid and sound and very likely to be the case, an artificial intelligence would have no problem coming to that if it was trying to be rational and efficient.
No, that's not even close to why he does it. It has nothing to do with the practical applications of the Vision's body.
He's friggin robot for christ sakes man. He's programmed with only one single directive. He then sets out on trying to achieve that directive and not only are you asking why he is trying to accomplish his task, you're asking why and saying it isn't because he is programmed to do so. I can't be the only one here who thinks that's absolutely insane.
It's not insane. It's just incorrect. Ultron doesn't take the course he does because he isn't human. He does it because he's extremely human.
Moreover, what you are saying is nonsensical. Ultron does not take the most direct means to destroying humanity. He does so in very specific ways, including taking steps not directly related to destroying humanity, such as building a new body. The body thing is really important.
Also, "he does it because he's a robot" is basically you saying there is no reason for Ultron to do what he does, nothing that would constitute a human emotion. Is that what you are saying? If so, how is this any different from what I said earlier, which is that Ultron is a dumb doombot who has no relatable goals?
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No, that's not even close to why he does it. It has nothing to do with the practical applications of the Vision's body.
I ask again, are you Whedon? If you are then I will admit that I am wrong because it's your movie and your vision for each character.
It's not insane. It's just incorrect. Ultron doesn't take the course he does because he isn't human. He does it because he's extremely human.
And again, how do you know this so definitively? Your assertion that Ultron wants to be human because he wants to be in a synthetic body could be just as wrong as my assertion that he wants a body because synthetic bodies are the there is out there and he will probably need it. At least my assertion has evidence from the movie in the form of verbal confirmation.
Moreover, what you are saying is nonsensical. Ultron does not take the most direct means to destroying humanity. He does so in very specific ways, including taking steps not directly related to destroying humanity, such as building a new body. The body thing is really important.
He goes for nukes first, that is literally the definition of a direct approach. And I don't know about you, but a meteor is pretty direct also. Once again, your theory as to why he needs a body is speculative at best.
Also, "he does it because he's a robot" is basically you saying there is no reason for Ultron to do what he does, nothing that would constitute a human emotion. Is that what you are saying? If so, how is this any different from what I said earlier, which is that Ultron is a dumb doombot who has no relatable goals?
He does it because he is programmed to is a perfectly valid reason for him to do things. I can empathize with Ultron and his plan even if his actions are devoid of human emotions.
And no i'm not actively trying to cause an extinction in humanity right now, but I have given it thought so there's the relatable goal so to speak
He does it because he is programmed to is a perfectly valid reason for him to do things.
You are contradicting yourself. You simultaneously say that Ultron has emotional reasons to do so and then say that Ultron is a robot, and the only reason he is doing what he does is because he's programmed to.
I can empathize with Ultron and his plan even if his actions are devoid of human emotions.
No, of course you can't, because that's the opposite of the definition of "empathize."
His ego, theatrics, quirks, and preference for the grandeur, of course.
Yes to ego and preference for grandeur, but take it much further, as further as it can possibly go.
Ultron wants to be God.
Why does he want to wipe the world clean of humanity? Because that's what God does.
Why does he want to create himself a living body? Because that's what God does. He creates life.
Why does he do it with a giant meteor? Because that's how God wipes a species out.
Why does he repeatedly use Biblical imagery? Refer to himself as a savior? Talk about people looking up at the heavens to him in hope? Use phrases like, "My swift and terrible sword"? Because he is evoking Old Testament God.
Ultron is playing Old Testament God. And notice who he is contrasted with: Vision. Who is Vision? Vision is the person who is housing the body Ultron planned for himself, except he and Ultron both have opposing views of humanity. This all culminates in a final encounter with Ultron and Vision, in which Vision expresses his love of and hope for humanity against Ultron's disdain. This is why it had to be Vision who ends Ultron, and not Stark or anyone else.
Blinking, I liked your approach to Age of Ultron, but I believe this is also why it wouldn't work that Vision would end up being JARVIS instead of another character entirely. It has to be a separate character for this parallel, because it's set up that they're two contrasting takes between New and Old Testament God. (You can just run through the imagery. JARVIS dies and is resurrected, Vision is born from a combination of the Mind Stone — a cosmic force — and Thor's lightning, the people escape death from the landmass on a giant ship...)
Speaking of Stark, how does Ultron come to be? By Tony playing God. Who does Ultron resemble? Tony Stark. You're correct that there's a parallel, but specifically it's a parallel between Tony and Ultron's desire to play God.
Once you understand that, you understand Ultron.
In light of that, the movie actually becomes pretty interesting, because there's something deeper going on than just explosions. Unfortunately, the movie gets bogged down in a lot of stuff that has nothing to do with this central conflict and the story is lost. I'll have to write further on this another time.
I can empathize with Ultron and his plan even if his actions are devoid of human emotions.
No, of course you can't, because that's the opposite of the definition of "empathize."
I hope that "empathize" is NOT something that not too many people get from Ultron. I was browsing and found a neat article about CG'ing the Ultron robot, and in it, one of the people mention Ultron's character motivation.
"When I talked to Joss about what his intentions were with Ultron’s identity, his exact words were 'he wants to be a schizophrenic robot with daddy issues.'"
Handling insanity properly instead of as an excuse for not fleshing out a character is a razor thing line. I think Ultron is one of the closest characters to that line (which side is a point of debate, but being close to either side is not a good thing).
You are contradicting yourself. You simultaneously say that Ultron has emotional reasons to do so and then say that Ultron is a robot, and the only reason he is doing what he does is because he's programmed to.
I think I misread your original line, i'm saying his one and only reason for doing what he does is because he was programmed to do so. He has no emotional reason for him needing to follow his primary directive. Only emotion he shows is when his plan is being hindered.
No, of course you can't, because that's the opposite of the definition of "empathize."
Empathize is a poor word choice. The best way to word it is I understand his thought process and decisions, and can relate to it on some level.
Ultron wants to be God.
Or perhaps his actions and thought process simply mirror God. The only thing we can say for certain that Ultron wants is world peace, if Ultron rationally conclucded that taking a "God" route would get there, then yeah he would be likened to God but doesn't mean he wants to be him.
Also Ultron did go for nukes first, not a very godly thing to do.
Blinking, I liked your approach to Age of Ultron, but I believe this is also why it wouldn't work that Vision would end up being JARVIS instead of another character entirely.
I was seeing Ultron and Jarvis as Cain and Abel. Except Abel is also Jesus in the third act. I don't see why the Vision has to be separate from him.
Also: not to turn this into a Religion forum debate, but you know OT God has exactly the same murderous-for-no-reason motivation issues that Ultron does, right?
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I think I misread your original line, i'm saying his one and only reason for doing what he does is because he was programmed to do so. He has no emotional reason for him needing to follow his primary directive.
Were this true, Ultron would not be a character. He would be a plot device akin to a storm. Were this true, Ultron would have zero motivation.
Of course, this is not the case because...
Only emotion he shows is when his plan is being hindered.
...? Ultron shows emotion all the time, especially when his plan is succeeding. Hell, he sings Disney songs!
Indeed, emotion is apparently what he's fueled by. He's repeatedly characterized as being filled with rage (and indeed, this is the problem with the movie: Why does Ultron go vengeful God in the first place? What does he have to be angry about? No one knows.)
Empathize is a poor word choice. The best way to word it is I understand his thought process and decisions, and can relate to it on some level.
Well it can't be an emotional level if you're arguing that Ultron has no emotion.
Except you also said you related to it emotionally. So which is it?
Or perhaps his actions and thought process simply mirror God.
And perhaps all the Judeo-Christian parallels are coincidental? I don't buy it.
The only thing we can say for certain that Ultron wants is world peace,
What license do we have to say that?
Also Ultron did go for nukes first, not a very godly thing to do.
Remind me, didn't Ultron have nukes, given the whole explosion at the end?
Also: not to turn this into a Religion forum debate, but you know OT God has exactly the same murderous-for-no-reason motivation issues that Ultron does, right?
Oh sure.
But the thing of it is, even though Ultron is doing the whole God in the Old Testament/Satan in the New Testament thing, we never are given a reason WHY he's choosing to do that. It would be interesting if we had, as you said, a protracted length of time in which we could see him grow as a character. Both figuratively — have him as a blank slate and slowly learn more and more about humanity, and let him interact with JARVIS and Tony to have those character dynamics fleshed out — and literally — have him progressively grow in terms of the scope of his influence as a program across the internet. Then have him severely disillusioned by humanity due to some emotionally-wounding experience, while simultaneously realizing what every wild animal kept as a pet realizes eventually: he's way the hell more powerful than a human, and doesn't need to be taking orders from them. Then he murders JARVIS, signaling his fall. Now you have an actual reason for Ultron to have his whole God complex. On top of that, you could have Tony repeatedly feeding Ultron's ego by doing everything he can to have Ultron grow in scope and power without heeding the warning signs that Ultron needs to be contained, thereby once again letting Tony's fatal flaw be a key element in the story instead of something that falls by the wayside.
Instead... We don't get that. We get five seconds on Google for Ultron to discover that the news is filled with horrible things and then kill humanity. (See, news networks? If you had more fluff pieces about pandas being birthed at the zoo and less depressing headlines, Ultron wouldn't be trying to kill you now.)
But on the subject of JARVIS, I feel that it fits that Vision is a separate character. If he's JARVIS, he'd be Tony Stark's snarky, harassed robot-butler who just so happens to be in an indestructible body. With the Mind Stone, JARVIS, and the vibranium body synthesized, he becomes this sort of other-worldly creature, a creation born from cosmic power, which fits the symbolism better.
Of course, then we get down to whether we're committing to the symbolism over what is satisfying character-wise, and goodness knows this movie has enough problems with character.
In light of that, the movie actually becomes pretty interesting, because there's something deeper going on than just explosions. Unfortunately, the movie gets bogged down in a lot of stuff that has nothing to do with this central conflict and the story is lost. I'll have to write further on this another time.
I think we're on the same page about Age of Ultron then... we just differ in how we respond to this flaw in the movie. I guess I'm just more merciful for giving an "A for effort" (I'd actually rate this movie a B or B+ if we want to get into grading scales, vs. the first Avengers which is an A-).
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...? Ultron shows emotion all the time, especially when his plan is succeeding. Hell, he sings Disney songs!
Indeed, emotion is apparently what he's fueled by. He's repeatedly characterized as being filled with rage (and indeed, this is the problem with the movie: Why does Ultron go vengeful God in the first place? What does he have to be angry about? No one knows.)
Only emotions i've seen this guy show is frustration and one instance of an angry outburst stemming from that frustration. Frustration (which he verbally confirms) is because people don't "get his plan" and are actively attempting to sabotage it. His anger after chopping the arms dealer's arm off is because he was compared to a being that Ultron directly perceives as an obstacle to his directive. Aside from that, he doesn't show much, in fact in several Ultron scenes, his words shows signs of frustrations but his demeanor and speech delivery is eerily calm.
When he sings that disney song, at that particular moment, he was not succeeding, he was losing and badly.
Except you also said you related to it emotionally. So which is it?
ah here's what is, I understand his plans and decisions which has no emotional basis. The emotional part that i'm relating to is his frustration of people not getting his plan.
And perhaps all the Judeo-Christian parallels are coincidental? I don't buy it.
Well if he really wanted to go for the authentic God approach, he would skipped the nukes and meteor for a flood. No known meteoric event in the bible that is responsible for an extinction level event as far i'm aware.
He makes only one explicit biblical reference, Noah's ark when trying to explain his plan to scarlet witch. I think he uses it as an example so that she and her brother can relate to it.
What license do we have to say that?
Oh I don't know, Stark programmed him to achieve world peace which we have verbal confirmation from multiple characters, Ultron also repeats that same directive multiple times throughout the film.
It's kinda hard to miss
Remind me, didn't Ultron have nukes, given the whole explosion at the end?
No he had no nukes but was actively trying to obtain them, the Avengers are afraid of that at first but apparently someone (later on discovered to be jarvis) was secretly keeping the codes from Ultron, so he settles for the next best thing
A being trying to play God wouldn't go for the nukes, not enough theatrics and feeling of grandeur but a rational and efficient being would.
I saw the movie again today. Did not get anything more to the experience, but it did let me focus more on the story.
More Ultron time would have been good. Ultron was a filler villain that allowed for a good pivot to Marvel Civil War, Infinity War, and the movies. And for being a building future movies, it was really good.
I agree with what you said here. Knowing we were going to get at least 2 more keystone movies in the frnachise (Infinity Wars pt. 1 and 2) really capped my thoughts on this movie topping Avengers 1. I feel like we needed more Ultron development, the fact that the movie was lesser than Avengers 1 means that it wont be that much harder for the series to continue. By that, if this movie was better than 1, The expectations for IW 1 & 2 would be through the roof. If it means that overall the series is better, I'll take a slightly weaker middle of said series.
I think we're on the same page about Age of Ultron then... we just differ in how we respond to this flaw in the movie. I guess I'm just more merciful for giving an "A for effort" (I'd actually rate this movie a B or B+ if we want to get into grading scales, vs. the first Avengers which is an A-).
I wouldn't rate the film higher than a C-. Again, movie was a mess. Lots of ideas, sure, but execution was awful on almost everything.
That is impossible if you watched the film. He clearly shows more emotions than that.
I’ve watched the movie many times now and rewatched many scenes involving Ultron. Even in having his plans hindered in various ways, he maintains a rather rational robotic calmness. You claim the body is so important yet he doesn’t show a hint of anger when it is taken from him. This according to you, is one of the most integral parts to Ultron wanting to play God. Shouldn’t he be furious and ripping everything apart and killing his captive, Black Widow, out of rage? What does he do instead, calmly proceed with the meteor plan. Another scene is him trying to upload his mind to the body and SW discovers the depth of his plans and is about to ditch Ultron, he knows the Avengers are coming and Helen Cho just took him off the connection to his precious body. What does he do? Shoot Helen and calmly walk out with the cradle. Not a hint of anger. In his final exchange with Vision before his death, everything went completely against his plans for world peace, no extinction meteor, no vision body, no access to the internet, and about to be wiped out completely. You’d think he’d be lashing out and going postal. Nope, calm chat with Vision.
Like I said, he does show some degrees of frustration and very rarely, in like one scene, visible outburst of anger. Other than that, this guy is pretty calm when there are times he clearly shouldn’t be.
It's been demonstrated you don't.
No, what I don’t understand is your interpretations of his plans and decisions. I simply see him as a robot designed to implement world peace and he goes about it by attempting to kill all of humanity. I understand his logical jump from “there are conflicts” to “there will be no conflicts without humanity”.
Plan = world peace
Decision = kill everyone
Implementation = Giant drill to create a giant meteor in lieu of unobtainable nukes.
What I don’t understand, is your assertion that he’s doing it because he wants or needs to play God. There is sparse evidence to support it and the evidence can be interpreted in different ways and every time I point out that fact that it is just your personal interpretation and opinion, you either ignore it or hand wave it off and proceed to tell me I know nothing and you know everything.
Seriously, what makes your interpretation more valid than mine?
Jay's assessment of the movie pretty well mirrored how I felt about it. It just never fully engaged me the way that the first one did. Most of the one liners were dumb(Cap talking about language wasn't funny the first time, and definitely wasn't every other damned time they brought it up). Stark making a sexual innuendo re: Black Widow and Hulk was just..weird. Etc.
Ultron was definitely the biggest disappointment for me though. I love James Spader as an actor, and after seeing what Whedon and Marvel were able to accomplish with Loki, arguably a fairly minor villain, I expected a ton out of Ultron. And they never even remotely delivered. I wish that Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver wouldn't have been in the movie(especially considering..various factors), and that time could have been focused on Ultron developing more as a character and villain instead. Or they could have made this a 2 part movie. Or Ultron could originally have been introducted in some Iron Man movie and then continued on here. Just..anything. How you combine Whedon's ability to develop characters, Spader's ability to play a quirky bad guy, and all of the character history available for Ultron and come up with..what we saw..is just mind-boggling. I know that not every Marvel movie has been great(Hulk was meh, both Thor movies have been pretty bad, etc), but I figured that they would get this right. And they just didn't.
I just don't get why Marvel sucks at villains now. Loki has been great every time. Is that really just all to be credited to Tom Hiddleston? Hard to believe. But then, the rest of their villains have been fairly mediocre in general.
Like Jay said..it wasn't a bad movie, but it wasn't really that good either. It definitely underwhelmed. I can't see myself watching it in theaters a second time, nor do I think I'll feel compelled to rush out and purchase it when it first comes out on BluRay. This is in comparison to the original Avengers, which I have probably watched 8 times or more over the last few years and still thoroughly enjoy each time.
I just don't get why Marvel sucks at villains now. Loki has been great every time. Is that really just all to be credited to Tom Hiddleston? Hard to believe. But then, the rest of their villains have been fairly mediocre in general.
Loki has a backstory we can empathize with. Everybody has some sort of issue with their parents. We can understand his motivation even though he's the bad guy.
Ultron, conversely, is a robot. He shouldn't have any humanity. There should be nothing we empathize with. That should be scary, but it needs to be backed up with an actual show of force. Ultron doesn't really do anything until the end of the movie. He needed to do something completely inhuman early on to establish just how inhuman he is.
For example, Loki kills a guy and takes his eyeball in front of dozens of witnesses early in the first movie, all in furtherance of his plan. Ultron cuts off a guy's arm with nobody around because why?
Remember that Ultron's purpose was to protect the Earth. That's what Tony programmed him to do. And, like any learning computer, Ultron found the most efficient way possible. In all his searching of the Internet what did he see? Man's time on Earth and how man has hurt it. If Ultron is supposed to defend Earth then of course he's going to make his goal to eradicate those that harm it.
Ultron keeps yammering on about meteors and wiping the slate clean. He doesn't talk about destroying the Earth with the meteor; he talks about destroying humanity.
Now if Tony had instead used, "Protect the Earth and all life on it," as Ultron's prime directive then maybe the Avengers could have continued sipping on Thor's brew.
All that, though, is somewhat muddled in the movie. I blame the jumpy editing for that.
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I'm 98% sure Ultron recognizes the danger Tony Stark's attitude poses (going back to the line that people produce their fears in their pursuits to eliminate them), which by in large provides a motivation for despising humanity. Humanity, from Ultron's perspective, is helpless to making the world a better place because their pursuits for peace only make things worse.
What would be twisted is if Ultron thinks his existence through Tony Stark is justification to destroy humanity. Tony Stark created Ultron to make the world a better place, and Ultron knows what he wants to do, and then he feels compelled to do it because he needs to stop the rest of humanity from creating more monsters like Tony Stark did. If true, it would imply that Ultron is either like a child or not an actual full artificial intelligence because Ultron is either driven by programing compulsions or is incapable of self-reflection.
I would say that letting Tony Stark off the hook is justifiable until after the Ultron protocol is shutdown (or is it?). One of the weaker points of the movie is the ending where Tony and his greatest adversary trying to check his hubris (Steve Rogers) walk off their differences trying to figure out whether or not Visions' worthiness is a technicality the same way an elevator could be worthy. That's why I said a more overt pyrrhic victory would have saved this film so many points. I would have thought that all this would have made Steve Rogers mad enough to the point where he's tempted to declare war on Tony Stark... a civ... oooh...
In all truth, what I describe here has been a systemic problem with blockbusters for the past few years. The climax of the movie makes a colossal mess that would in no way justify a happy ending, but because box numbers are driven by happy endings, natural endings are either glossed over or warped to leave the movie on a high note. Star Trek: Into Darkness, Godzilla (2014), and Man of Steel are the first examples that come to mind.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
Because you don't.
You said it yourself. You "inferred" this. Infer means to logically deduce.
You don't feel anything in that scene, you are trying to logically solve the scene. And this is demonstrated by you not understanding why Ultron does what he does.
This is why your "explanations" for why Ultron does things are either just repeating what happens (Ultron decides to do X because something happens that makes him do X) or entirely wrong (Ultron creates the Vision because he wants a stronger body).
You clearly do not understand the character of Ultron, and you clearly cannot explain why Ultron does anything that he does.
Why does Ultron try to destroy humanity? (Hint: it's not because mankind distresses him)
Why does Ultron try to destroy humanity in the specific way that he does? (Hint: Yes, he does like meteors, but WHY a meteor specifically?)
Why is it pivotal to Ultron's plan that he create a living flesh-and-blood body? (Hint: It's not necessarily about how powerful the body is)
Why does Ultron constantly wax philosophical all the time? (Hint: Don't look too deeply into what he says, but specifically who he talks like)
Can you find a single answer for all of these questions that makes sense and is relatable to any human being? If not, then you do not understand Ultron's character.
And let's be fair, I didn't really get it until this morning while I was on the way to work. Something clicked and it was like, "Oooooh, of course that's who he is." And when you get that, Ultron's character actions become clear. But it's certainly not made clear by the film. The actual execution of it is horrible to the point where it's so bogged down it's clear even the people telling the story lost sight of it.
No, you misunderstand. I'm saying it DIDN'T let Tony Stark off the hook, which is why I don't understand why the characters react as though they did.
You state that you have problems with the ending where Tony and Captain America are fine at the end. I agree they shouldn't be. Somehow this whole thing working out for them with Vision being ok leads everyone to gloss over Tony doing exactly what he did to make Ultron and get everyone into this mess, which makes no sense, particularly when Scarlet Witch expressly states that Tony won't stop making the same mistake out of hubris and fear.
I feel there's a simpler explanation.
That would be more in keeping with what happened in the movie. They could have a happy ending where Captain America and Tony resolve their differences, but only after Tony went through a character arc that never happened.
You seem to think Ultron is evil for some other reason. A comics-based hypothesis, I presume? Are you suggesting that it has to do with the Mind Stone?
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That doesn't make any sense. Humanity is incapable of harming a planet.
Plus, that doesn't explain the specifics. Why does Ultron need a body for his plan? That's one of the first things he says: a pivotal part of his plan is to appear "in the flesh." He wants a body. Why does Ultron choose a meteor to end humanity? Why does Ultron do specifically these things when he could easily choose alternative courses to achieve his end of causing humanity to go extinct?
Therefore, his goal is not simply for humanity to go extinct. There is something else at work here.
No, you have not.
Are you Joss Whedon? Because you seem very and I mean very sure of yourself to the point where you are 100% correct and anyone else who doesn't share your belief is 100% wrong. Now if you're Whedon, it would explain a lot.
Is it so hard to wrap your mind around wanting to be prepared and having contingencies? My explanation to why he needs the best "tech" presently available is valid and sound and very likely to be the case, an artificial intelligence would have no problem coming to that if it was trying to be rational and efficient. Sometimes, a blue curtain is just a blue curtain and not some grand representation of the author's deep seated hatred towards his pet dog name Blue.
He's friggin robot for christ sakes man. He's programmed with only one single directive. He then sets out on trying to achieve that directive and not only are you asking why he is trying to accomplish his task, you're asking why and saying it isn't because he is programmed to do so. I can't be the only one here who thinks that's absolutely insane.
Do you ask your computer why every time you right click the mouse, a menu pops up?
edit: Also Nis is slightly wrong in his wording, world peace/peace in our time is his only directive. The existence of conflict (what Ultron physically sees) would mean the absence of peace. Eradicating humanity brings peace because then there will be no race of individuals to engage in conflicts. Other than that, he seems to get the gist of it.
It's not insane. It's just incorrect. Ultron doesn't take the course he does because he isn't human. He does it because he's extremely human.
Moreover, what you are saying is nonsensical. Ultron does not take the most direct means to destroying humanity. He does so in very specific ways, including taking steps not directly related to destroying humanity, such as building a new body. The body thing is really important.
Also, "he does it because he's a robot" is basically you saying there is no reason for Ultron to do what he does, nothing that would constitute a human emotion. Is that what you are saying? If so, how is this any different from what I said earlier, which is that Ultron is a dumb doombot who has no relatable goals?
Hey look it's the first sentence I put in spoiler tags.
Funny what 5 seconds of reading would have netted you.
Again, choosing to ignore my posts doesn't make them incorrect.
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I ask again, are you Whedon? If you are then I will admit that I am wrong because it's your movie and your vision for each character.
And again, how do you know this so definitively? Your assertion that Ultron wants to be human because he wants to be in a synthetic body could be just as wrong as my assertion that he wants a body because synthetic bodies are the there is out there and he will probably need it. At least my assertion has evidence from the movie in the form of verbal confirmation.
He goes for nukes first, that is literally the definition of a direct approach. And I don't know about you, but a meteor is pretty direct also. Once again, your theory as to why he needs a body is speculative at best.
He does it because he is programmed to is a perfectly valid reason for him to do things. I can empathize with Ultron and his plan even if his actions are devoid of human emotions.
And no i'm not actively trying to cause an extinction in humanity right now, but I have given it thought so there's the relatable goal so to speak
No, of course you can't, because that's the opposite of the definition of "empathize."
Yes to ego and preference for grandeur, but take it much further, as further as it can possibly go.
Ultron wants to be God.
Why does he want to wipe the world clean of humanity? Because that's what God does.
Why does he want to create himself a living body? Because that's what God does. He creates life.
Why does he do it with a giant meteor? Because that's how God wipes a species out.
Why does he repeatedly use Biblical imagery? Refer to himself as a savior? Talk about people looking up at the heavens to him in hope? Use phrases like, "My swift and terrible sword"? Because he is evoking Old Testament God.
Ultron is playing Old Testament God. And notice who he is contrasted with: Vision. Who is Vision? Vision is the person who is housing the body Ultron planned for himself, except he and Ultron both have opposing views of humanity. This all culminates in a final encounter with Ultron and Vision, in which Vision expresses his love of and hope for humanity against Ultron's disdain. This is why it had to be Vision who ends Ultron, and not Stark or anyone else.
Blinking, I liked your approach to Age of Ultron, but I believe this is also why it wouldn't work that Vision would end up being JARVIS instead of another character entirely. It has to be a separate character for this parallel, because it's set up that they're two contrasting takes between New and Old Testament God. (You can just run through the imagery. JARVIS dies and is resurrected, Vision is born from a combination of the Mind Stone — a cosmic force — and Thor's lightning, the people escape death from the landmass on a giant ship...)
Speaking of Stark, how does Ultron come to be? By Tony playing God. Who does Ultron resemble? Tony Stark. You're correct that there's a parallel, but specifically it's a parallel between Tony and Ultron's desire to play God.
Once you understand that, you understand Ultron.
In light of that, the movie actually becomes pretty interesting, because there's something deeper going on than just explosions. Unfortunately, the movie gets bogged down in a lot of stuff that has nothing to do with this central conflict and the story is lost. I'll have to write further on this another time.
"When I talked to Joss about what his intentions were with Ultron’s identity, his exact words were 'he wants to be a schizophrenic robot with daddy issues.'"
Source.
Handling insanity properly instead of as an excuse for not fleshing out a character is a razor thing line. I think Ultron is one of the closest characters to that line (which side is a point of debate, but being close to either side is not a good thing).
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
I think I misread your original line, i'm saying his one and only reason for doing what he does is because he was programmed to do so. He has no emotional reason for him needing to follow his primary directive. Only emotion he shows is when his plan is being hindered.
Empathize is a poor word choice. The best way to word it is I understand his thought process and decisions, and can relate to it on some level.
Or perhaps his actions and thought process simply mirror God. The only thing we can say for certain that Ultron wants is world peace, if Ultron rationally conclucded that taking a "God" route would get there, then yeah he would be likened to God but doesn't mean he wants to be him.
Also Ultron did go for nukes first, not a very godly thing to do.
Also: not to turn this into a Religion forum debate, but you know OT God has exactly the same murderous-for-no-reason motivation issues that Ultron does, right?
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Of course, this is not the case because...
...? Ultron shows emotion all the time, especially when his plan is succeeding. Hell, he sings Disney songs!
Indeed, emotion is apparently what he's fueled by. He's repeatedly characterized as being filled with rage (and indeed, this is the problem with the movie: Why does Ultron go vengeful God in the first place? What does he have to be angry about? No one knows.)
Well it can't be an emotional level if you're arguing that Ultron has no emotion.
Except you also said you related to it emotionally. So which is it?
And perhaps all the Judeo-Christian parallels are coincidental? I don't buy it.
What license do we have to say that?
Remind me, didn't Ultron have nukes, given the whole explosion at the end?
Oh sure.
But the thing of it is, even though Ultron is doing the whole God in the Old Testament/Satan in the New Testament thing, we never are given a reason WHY he's choosing to do that. It would be interesting if we had, as you said, a protracted length of time in which we could see him grow as a character. Both figuratively — have him as a blank slate and slowly learn more and more about humanity, and let him interact with JARVIS and Tony to have those character dynamics fleshed out — and literally — have him progressively grow in terms of the scope of his influence as a program across the internet. Then have him severely disillusioned by humanity due to some emotionally-wounding experience, while simultaneously realizing what every wild animal kept as a pet realizes eventually: he's way the hell more powerful than a human, and doesn't need to be taking orders from them. Then he murders JARVIS, signaling his fall. Now you have an actual reason for Ultron to have his whole God complex. On top of that, you could have Tony repeatedly feeding Ultron's ego by doing everything he can to have Ultron grow in scope and power without heeding the warning signs that Ultron needs to be contained, thereby once again letting Tony's fatal flaw be a key element in the story instead of something that falls by the wayside.
Instead... We don't get that. We get five seconds on Google for Ultron to discover that the news is filled with horrible things and then kill humanity. (See, news networks? If you had more fluff pieces about pandas being birthed at the zoo and less depressing headlines, Ultron wouldn't be trying to kill you now.)
But on the subject of JARVIS, I feel that it fits that Vision is a separate character. If he's JARVIS, he'd be Tony Stark's snarky, harassed robot-butler who just so happens to be in an indestructible body. With the Mind Stone, JARVIS, and the vibranium body synthesized, he becomes this sort of other-worldly creature, a creation born from cosmic power, which fits the symbolism better.
Of course, then we get down to whether we're committing to the symbolism over what is satisfying character-wise, and goodness knows this movie has enough problems with character.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
Only emotions i've seen this guy show is frustration and one instance of an angry outburst stemming from that frustration. Frustration (which he verbally confirms) is because people don't "get his plan" and are actively attempting to sabotage it. His anger after chopping the arms dealer's arm off is because he was compared to a being that Ultron directly perceives as an obstacle to his directive. Aside from that, he doesn't show much, in fact in several Ultron scenes, his words shows signs of frustrations but his demeanor and speech delivery is eerily calm.
When he sings that disney song, at that particular moment, he was not succeeding, he was losing and badly.
ah here's what is, I understand his plans and decisions which has no emotional basis. The emotional part that i'm relating to is his frustration of people not getting his plan.
Well if he really wanted to go for the authentic God approach, he would skipped the nukes and meteor for a flood. No known meteoric event in the bible that is responsible for an extinction level event as far i'm aware.
He makes only one explicit biblical reference, Noah's ark when trying to explain his plan to scarlet witch. I think he uses it as an example so that she and her brother can relate to it.
Oh I don't know, Stark programmed him to achieve world peace which we have verbal confirmation from multiple characters, Ultron also repeats that same directive multiple times throughout the film.
It's kinda hard to miss
No he had no nukes but was actively trying to obtain them, the Avengers are afraid of that at first but apparently someone (later on discovered to be jarvis) was secretly keeping the codes from Ultron, so he settles for the next best thing
A being trying to play God wouldn't go for the nukes, not enough theatrics and feeling of grandeur but a rational and efficient being would.
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyThat is impossible if you watched the film. He clearly shows more emotions than that.
It's been demonstrated you don't.
I’ve watched the movie many times now and rewatched many scenes involving Ultron. Even in having his plans hindered in various ways, he maintains a rather rational robotic calmness. You claim the body is so important yet he doesn’t show a hint of anger when it is taken from him. This according to you, is one of the most integral parts to Ultron wanting to play God. Shouldn’t he be furious and ripping everything apart and killing his captive, Black Widow, out of rage? What does he do instead, calmly proceed with the meteor plan. Another scene is him trying to upload his mind to the body and SW discovers the depth of his plans and is about to ditch Ultron, he knows the Avengers are coming and Helen Cho just took him off the connection to his precious body. What does he do? Shoot Helen and calmly walk out with the cradle. Not a hint of anger. In his final exchange with Vision before his death, everything went completely against his plans for world peace, no extinction meteor, no vision body, no access to the internet, and about to be wiped out completely. You’d think he’d be lashing out and going postal. Nope, calm chat with Vision.
Like I said, he does show some degrees of frustration and very rarely, in like one scene, visible outburst of anger. Other than that, this guy is pretty calm when there are times he clearly shouldn’t be.
No, what I don’t understand is your interpretations of his plans and decisions. I simply see him as a robot designed to implement world peace and he goes about it by attempting to kill all of humanity. I understand his logical jump from “there are conflicts” to “there will be no conflicts without humanity”.
Plan = world peace
Decision = kill everyone
Implementation = Giant drill to create a giant meteor in lieu of unobtainable nukes.
What I don’t understand, is your assertion that he’s doing it because he wants or needs to play God. There is sparse evidence to support it and the evidence can be interpreted in different ways and every time I point out that fact that it is just your personal interpretation and opinion, you either ignore it or hand wave it off and proceed to tell me I know nothing and you know everything.
Seriously, what makes your interpretation more valid than mine?
Ultron was definitely the biggest disappointment for me though. I love James Spader as an actor, and after seeing what Whedon and Marvel were able to accomplish with Loki, arguably a fairly minor villain, I expected a ton out of Ultron. And they never even remotely delivered. I wish that Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver wouldn't have been in the movie(especially considering..various factors), and that time could have been focused on Ultron developing more as a character and villain instead. Or they could have made this a 2 part movie. Or Ultron could originally have been introducted in some Iron Man movie and then continued on here. Just..anything. How you combine Whedon's ability to develop characters, Spader's ability to play a quirky bad guy, and all of the character history available for Ultron and come up with..what we saw..is just mind-boggling. I know that not every Marvel movie has been great(Hulk was meh, both Thor movies have been pretty bad, etc), but I figured that they would get this right. And they just didn't.
I just don't get why Marvel sucks at villains now. Loki has been great every time. Is that really just all to be credited to Tom Hiddleston? Hard to believe. But then, the rest of their villains have been fairly mediocre in general.
Like Jay said..it wasn't a bad movie, but it wasn't really that good either. It definitely underwhelmed. I can't see myself watching it in theaters a second time, nor do I think I'll feel compelled to rush out and purchase it when it first comes out on BluRay. This is in comparison to the original Avengers, which I have probably watched 8 times or more over the last few years and still thoroughly enjoy each time.
Loki has a backstory we can empathize with. Everybody has some sort of issue with their parents. We can understand his motivation even though he's the bad guy.
Ultron, conversely, is a robot. He shouldn't have any humanity. There should be nothing we empathize with. That should be scary, but it needs to be backed up with an actual show of force. Ultron doesn't really do anything until the end of the movie. He needed to do something completely inhuman early on to establish just how inhuman he is.
For example, Loki kills a guy and takes his eyeball in front of dozens of witnesses early in the first movie, all in furtherance of his plan. Ultron cuts off a guy's arm with nobody around because why?
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Are you referring to what happens at the end, or something else?
This would have been better.
Now? Villains have sucked in Iron Man after the first one.
It's mostly him, I think, but there's also the fact that Loki's an inherently interesting character.
Why not?