I'm an agnostic, and I want to debate with Christians about the figure of God. I'm not really interested in what atheists have to say if they come here to insult the beliefs of others, and really, I want to know the christian point of view on this because well... I belive there's a God, I just don't think he's good.
First of all, I've already made my experience as a confirmed catholic. I used to be an atheist but I started doubting we're really here out of the blue, in my opinion, it's impossible to explain the universe based on cience alone, I'm sure there must be an entity greater than us. After years of defending my religion tho, I noticed how God seems not to care about what you want, as an individual, as a person, but what he BELIVES is better. Christians call this "freedom", I call it a disguised Tyrany.
Ok, so if God is our father, isn't he supposed to listen to us once in a while? People say God follows this logic: Don't ask God for a bike because he doesn't works that way, steal the bike, and ask for forgiveness. People say God gives, on his time, and only what he thinks is good for you, so in a way or another we're limited to what God thinks s best for an individual instead of him trying to listen to what we expect and want from life. Other religions seem to have gods who actually care, but I am more inclined to belive the cosmos is the creation of an individual entity.
Then there's the issue on Heaven, eternity. If you follow God, act like a good human being and help others out, you go to heaven. But what is Heaven? A place where pretty much you'll lose your identity and individuality in order to be one with God, the cosmos, whatever. As I've seen many Christians and people who's had NDE describe Heaven that way. You won't feel the air never again, not taste the food. Your family won't br your family. You won't be able to kiss your wife any more, hug your kid... That's pretty much hell without the physicall tortures. And that reafirms God only cares about what he thinks is right for the soul instead of trying to listen.
Also if he's our father, he needs like, to do something other than showing nothing but indiference once in a while. If he's a fatherly figure he's doing it wrong. We live in the *****tiest world possible and he really, doesn't seems to care, he just makes a miracle once in a while to some random person to say "Hey, I enjoy looking at all of you suffer, keep it up, maybe in 4 months or so I'll let Mary appear again somewhere so you all get paranoid and belive world's ending again!"
I mean, mother says "Thank God because you're fortunate to have a house, parents and a meal". Why should I? Father is the one who has tried to give us that. Indeed God is much like my father; he's only worried about giving the "basics" and the rest well... I've had to work for it.
And when I need divine intervention to get what I desire, even non material stuff, it just never comes. "Ask God and you'll get what you want" is to me the biggest lie after unicorns.
So, I belive there's a God, but one that cares nothing about us, and really I have my doubts about Jesus being the son of God...
disclaimer, I am mormon, so I'm not sure how that has colored my thinking.
I don't believe heaven is being one with anything, heaven is instead what I like to call "eternal progression". you are there, with your family, and your friends, and you are continually learning new things until eventually you can create your own universe and your own children and bring them to the same level of happiness that you are in.
on the subject of asking forgiveness rather than the bike, this is how I feel it works: I ask for a bike, God will give me opportunities to earn that bike. If I pray for family unity, he isn't going to just say "o.k, your all in synch now." He will give you opportunities to build that unity. After all, we are saved by the grace of god after all that we can do. We try as hard as we can, and then God makes up the rest.
while we do live in a rather crapsack world, that is a very pessimistic view of things. yes, there is death. yes, there is war. but that is nothing new, humans have been killing humans and being cruel to humans for all of history. Instead, focus on the positive. outlook is half of anything. The technological advances in the last few decades alone is incredible.
Another way to look at it is: if you're going to blame God for all of the bad, you have to give him credit for the good as well.
My shift is about to start, so I'll post more when I have time.
So, I believe there's a God, but one that cares nothing about us.
I may have missed your point, and if so I apologize, but -- as a father of two (soon to be three), there are *many* times where I do not give my kids what they want, but instead I give them what they need. That doesn't mean I don't love them, it in fact means the opposite. I Love them enough to be willing to put their best interest before my own desire to make them happy in the short term.
I would love nothing more than for my kids to always be smiling and happy. But, giving them candy for dinner, and avoiding the temper tantrum now is detrimental in the long run. Even though it will make them upset in the short term.
So, I believe there's a God, but one that cares nothing about us.
I may have missed your point, and if so I apologize, but -- as a father of two (soon to be three), there are *many* times where I do not give my kids what they want, but instead I give them what they need. That doesn't mean I don't love them, it in fact means the opposite. I Love them enough to be willing to put their best interest before my own desire to make them happy in the short term.
I would love nothing more than for my kids to always be smiling and happy. But, giving them candy for dinner, and avoiding the temper tantrum now is detrimental in the long run. Even though it will make them upset in the short term.
Well that might be true for those in developed countries but lets just look at kids in sweatshops in India/China or starving children in Africa. They don't even have basic needs or it is not guaranteed in the slightest. Clearly those beings are children of God as well so why would he not try to care for them?
So, I believe there's a God, but one that cares nothing about us.
I may have missed your point, and if so I apologize, but -- as a father of two (soon to be three), there are *many* times where I do not give my kids what they want, but instead I give them what they need. That doesn't mean I don't love them, it in fact means the opposite. I Love them enough to be willing to put their best interest before my own desire to make them happy in the short term.
I would love nothing more than for my kids to always be smiling and happy. But, giving them candy for dinner, and avoiding the temper tantrum now is detrimental in the long run. Even though it will make them upset in the short term.
Well that might be true for those in developed countries but lets just look at kids in sweatshops in India/China or starving children in Africa. They don't even have basic needs or it is not guaranteed in the slightest. Clearly those beings are children of God as well so why would he not try to care for them?
I think you're missing the point. The parent and child example is an analogy. God (the parent) knows what's good for us (the children). A kid thinks eating vegetables is bad and would much rather eat candy, but the parent knows vegetables are good in the long run. Likewise, we see suffering/sickness/poverty/death as bad, we would rather eat candy (have a comfortable, happy life), but God has an ultimate plan for all these things we perceive as bad and this ultimate plan is what's really good for us. So God is caring for all the starving children of the world, just not in a way that makes sense to our simple human minds.
An argument against this line of thinking is: why does God bother to tell human beings to love one another and refrain from killing and stealing, if in fact all of the world's problems and ills are part of his plan? Why doesn't he just say "make the world as terrible as possible, I'll sort it out in the long run."
I'm an agnostic, and I want to debate with Christians about the figure of God. I'm not really interested in what atheists have to say if they come here to insult the beliefs of others, and really, I want to know the christian point of view on this because well... I belive there's a God, I just don't think he's good.
Is agnostic the best word to use if you believe there's a God?
First of all, I've already made my experience as a confirmed catholic. I used to be an atheist but I started doubting we're really here out of the blue, in my opinion, it's impossible to explain the universe based on cience alone, I'm sure there must be an entity greater than us. After years of defending my religion tho, I noticed how God seems not to care about what you want, as an individual, as a person, but what he BELIVES is better. Christians call this "freedom", I call it a disguised Tyrany.
The immediate question that came into my mind when I read this is, "What is it you didn't get?"
Now, you don't have to answer that, that's an extremely personal question and I don't expect you to. But I will ask how recent this was. I wonder, after a few years have passed, how you would respond if you asked yourself whether you weren't better off not getting it.
People say God follows this logic: Don't ask God for a bike because he doesn't works that way, steal the bike, and ask for forgiveness.
Wait, WHAT? Who the **** told you that?
People say God gives, on his time, and only what he thinks is good for you, so in a way or another we're limited to what God thinks s best for an individual instead of him trying to listen to what we expect and want from life.
Oh God listens to what you're saying. That doesn't mean God is beholden to you. God works on his plan, not yours.
Then there's the issue on Heaven, eternity. If you follow God, act like a good human being and help others out, you go to heaven. But what is Heaven? A place where pretty much you'll lose your identity and individuality in order to be one with God, the cosmos, whatever.
Who told you this?
As I've seen many Christians and people who's had NDE describe Heaven that way.
Oh who cares about near death experiences? You know what near death experiences tell us? Nothing. Some see Heaven. Some see Hell. Some see something correlating to a completely different afterlife from another religion. Some don't have an afterlife experience at all. There's no reason to think they're any more than products of your brain doing funny things because the body is dying.
You won't feel the air never again, not taste the food. Your family won't br your family. You won't be able to kiss your wife any more, hug your kid...
Where are you getting all of this?
We live in the *****tiest world possible
No... We don't.
I mean, mother says "Thank God because you're fortunate to have a house, parents and a meal". Why should I?
I don't necessarily care so much about what you believe religiously, but if you're not grateful to have a house, parents, and food, then I don't really know what to tell you. Those are great things to have and many people don't.
In fact, I'm going to go back to what you said earlier: "We live in the *****tiest world possible"? You have a roof over your head and food on the table. What if you didn't have either of those? Would that not constitute a *****tier world?
So, I belive there's a God, but one that cares nothing about us, and really I have my doubts about Jesus being the son of God...
That's fine. The most important thing is that you be honest with yourself about what you believe. Beyond anything else, the best advice I can give you is to walk forward with that belief and see how it holds up.
So, I believe there's a God, but one that cares nothing about us.
I may have missed your point, and if so I apologize, but -- as a father of two (soon to be three), there are *many* times where I do not give my kids what they want, but instead I give them what they need. That doesn't mean I don't love them, it in fact means the opposite. I Love them enough to be willing to put their best interest before my own desire to make them happy in the short term.
I would love nothing more than for my kids to always be smiling and happy. But, giving them candy for dinner, and avoiding the temper tantrum now is detrimental in the long run. Even though it will make them upset in the short term.
Well that might be true for those in developed countries but lets just look at kids in sweatshops in India/China or starving children in Africa. They don't even have basic needs or it is not guaranteed in the slightest. Clearly those beings are children of God as well so why would he not try to care for them?
I think you're missing the point. The parent and child example is an analogy. God (the parent) knows what's good for us (the children). A kid thinks eating vegetables is bad and would much rather eat candy, but the parent knows vegetables are good in the long run. Likewise, we see suffering/sickness/poverty/death as bad, we would rather eat candy (have a comfortable, happy life), but God has an ultimate plan for all these things we perceive as bad and this ultimate plan is what's really good for us. So God is caring for all the starving children of the world, just not in a way that makes sense to our simple human minds.
An argument against this line of thinking is: why does God bother to tell human beings to love one another and refrain from killing and stealing, if in fact all of the world's problems and ills are part of his plan? Why doesn't he just say "make the world as terrible as possible, I'll sort it out in the long run."
Majority of those kids will go to hell if the current statistics on world population and religion are true (something God clearly doesn't want but somehow still allows for the oddest reason). If God wanted them in heaven (what's best for us), he would want those beings to live as long as possible for them to hear the gospel message. I could never get why people had the line of thinking where everything that happens in this universe no matter how gruesome, horrible or grotesque, can be reconciled with the fact that it is somehow within God's master plan, that is a ***** plan if the all powerful, all loving, all knowing God can't create a plan worthy of his ascribed traits. I don't buy it for one second because if I was God, I would for sure take better care of my creation. A side note is that I would also communicate my plans clearly with my creation so there isn't any confusion and alternative interpretations that follow.
I completely agree with every word that you say here. I used to believe that there was a God who cared. Then my worldview changed. The most common response has been the free will one, but the poor and the downtrodden can't just turn their lives around just because they believe the world should be different. And if God really is good, then I have to ask this. Why did God create a world that is full of natural disasters that senselessly waste life? If God created everything, then he could have created the world in a way that wouldn't have had explosive volcanoes, earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, and so forth. God creating the world without all of the uncontrolled death and destruction would not have interfered with human free will. So obviously God doesn't care (and before anyone brings up God's "greater plan", if God's plan involves the deaths of millions of people to disease, famine, natural disasters, and other calamities, then I am better off not believing in a benevolent God).
I completely agree with every word that you say here. I used to believe that there was a God who cared. Then my worldview changed. The most common response has been the free will one, but the poor and the downtrodden can't just turn their lives around just because they believe the world should be different. And if God really is good, then I have to ask this. Why did God create a world that is full of natural disasters that senselessly waste life? If God created everything, then he could have created the world in a way that wouldn't have had explosive volcanoes, earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, and so forth. God creating the world without all of the uncontrolled death and destruction would not have interfered with human free will. So obviously God doesn't care (and before anyone brings up God's "greater plan", if God's plan involves the deaths of millions of people to disease, famine, natural disasters, and other calamities, then I am better off not believing in a benevolent God).
So if my dad doesn't do my math homework for me he doesn't really care for me, and he isn't a good person?
I completely agree with every word that you say here. I used to believe that there was a God who cared. Then my worldview changed. The most common response has been the free will one, but the poor and the downtrodden can't just turn their lives around just because they believe the world should be different. And if God really is good, then I have to ask this. Why did God create a world that is full of natural disasters that senselessly waste life? If God created everything, then he could have created the world in a way that wouldn't have had explosive volcanoes, earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, and so forth. God creating the world without all of the uncontrolled death and destruction would not have interfered with human free will. So obviously God doesn't care (and before anyone brings up God's "greater plan", if God's plan involves the deaths of millions of people to disease, famine, natural disasters, and other calamities, then I am better off not believing in a benevolent God).
So if my dad doesn't do my math homework for me he doesn't really care for me, and he isn't a good person?
Just answer the question.
Explain to me how that is a relevant analogy. The real analogy would be this (at least for what I said about people without the same opportunities as other people). If I cannot do my math homework because I do not have my math book and my dad has my math book, is my dad a good parent if he let's me flunk the class because he won't give me back my book? And for what I said about natural disasters, the analogy would be me finishing my math homework, and then my dad putting it into a paper shredder for no reason.
I completely agree with every word that you say here. I used to believe that there was a God who cared. Then my worldview changed. The most common response has been the free will one, but the poor and the downtrodden can't just turn their lives around just because they believe the world should be different. And if God really is good, then I have to ask this. Why did God create a world that is full of natural disasters that senselessly waste life? If God created everything, then he could have created the world in a way that wouldn't have had explosive volcanoes, earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, and so forth. God creating the world without all of the uncontrolled death and destruction would not have interfered with human free will. So obviously God doesn't care (and before anyone brings up God's "greater plan", if God's plan involves the deaths of millions of people to disease, famine, natural disasters, and other calamities, then I am better off not believing in a benevolent God).
So if my dad doesn't do my math homework for me he doesn't really care for me, and he isn't a good person?
Just answer the question.
I think it should be more like "If my dad doesn't try to save my life when i'm in danger of dying even though he has the ability to and wouldn't inconvenience him in the slightest, he doesn't really care for me, and he isn't a good person?"
I'm quite sick of that analogy that paints us as a group of people that has the ability to do everything on our own yet we latch on to the parent like some lazy teenage kid with no sense of responsibility. Some things are clearly not in our control and are way out of our league.
One of the major premise of conventional Christian thought is that our physical life is irrelevant in comparison to our spiritual one, and that is why the acceptance of Christ and God and their dominion over you essentially supersedes what you do in life.
Within that context, all of your opinions are void anyhow. I'm honestly surprised that supposed former Christians like Valanarch never even considered this.
But I don't care for that right now.
Edit-
Oh **** it.
This is why I have a hard time taking many Christians seriously in the first place. For all the crap in the New Testament about how the suffering and rewards of the physical world pales in comparison to the treasures of the next (heck, this is essentially the concept that underpins most of what Jesus says in the Gospels), I find it incredibly silly that most "Christians" I've met can't bring themselves to just accept the Word. Why bother calling yourself a Christian if you're not going to do what your holy text tells you?
I can understand people worrying about things. You are human, and you will worry. But, if you are an actual Christian, then why is it so hard for you to remind yourself what the Gospels say and try to not worry?
So many Christians are worry-warts or petty in such inconsequential manners. And these are the folks who go to church every Sunday and call themselves Christians.
How is this relevant to what is being said here?
Those who do not accept Christ will be very much concerned with what happens now. Imho, that is what fundamentally separates a non-Christian from a Christian. A non-Christian doesn't accept that the 60-80 years they live here is utterly and completely irrelevant compared to the infinity that is the next life, and so don't bother preparing themselves for the next. A Christian does accept that the 60-80 years they live here is utterly and completely irrelevant to the infinity that is the next life, and so will bother preparing themselves for the next. Mainly by accepting Christ as their lord and savior and not doing anything that goes against what he says.
So, my question to "former Christians"- Can you really call yourself "former Christians" if you never even accepted this in the first place?
Hell, for all I know God intentionally made this world as it is so that people can question the "benevolence" of God and become doubters.
Why should I answer the question? The question has no relevance because the analogy is flawed. My dad would still be a good parent if he didn't do my homework for me. He would not be a good parent if he put it in a paper shredder. Now explain to me how God can be good if he let's people die and suffer because of things that they have no control over?
Why should I answer the question? The question has no relevance because the analogy is flawed. My dad would still be a good parent if he didn't do my homework for me.
It establishes the notion that someone occasionally doing things that are not conductive to your immediate benefit doesn't render said someone "not good" or "uncaring".
Why should I answer the question? The question has no relevance because the analogy is flawed. My dad would still be a good parent if he didn't do my homework for me.
It establishes the notion that someone occasionally doing things that are not conductive to your immediate benefit doesn't render said someone "not good" or "uncaring".
And death by volcano is not conductive to your benefit in any form. Killing people without cause is not good. It isn't even neutral. It is evil. I honestly would rather believe in no God than believe in a God who cares less about human life than about his mystical great plan that none of us petty mortals know about.
One of the major premise of conventional Christian thought is that our physical life is irrelevant in comparison to our spiritual one, and that is why the acceptance of Christ and God and their dominion over you essentially supersedes what you do in life.
Within that context, all of your opinions are void anyhow. I'm honestly surprised that supposed former Christians like Valanarch never even considered this.
But I don't care for that right now.
Edit-
Oh **** it.
This is why I have a hard time taking many Christians seriously in the first place. For all the crap in the New Testament about how the suffering and rewards of the physical world pales in comparison to the treasures of the next (heck, this is essentially the concept that underpins most of what Jesus says in the Gospels), I find it incredibly silly that most "Christians" I've met can't bring themselves to just accept the Word. Why bother calling yourself a Christian if you're not going to do what your holy text tells you?
I can understand people worrying about things. You are human, and you will worry. But, if you are an actual Christian, then why is it so hard for you to remind yourself what the Gospels say and try to not worry?
So many Christians are worry-warts or petty in such inconsequential manners. And these are the folks who go to church every Sunday and call themselves Christians.
How is this relevant to what is being said here?
Those who do not accept Christ will be very much concerned with what happens now. Imho, that is what fundamentally separates a non-Christian from a Christian. A non-Christian doesn't accept that the 60-80 years they live here is utterly and completely irrelevant compared to the infinity that is the next life, and so don't bother preparing themselves for the next. A Christian does accept that the 60-80 years they live here is utterly and completely irrelevant to the infinity that is the next life, and so will bother preparing themselves for the next. Mainly by accepting Christ as their lord and savior and not doing anything that goes against what he says.
So, my question to "former Christians"- Can you really call yourself "former Christians" if you never even accepted this in the first place?
Hell, for all I know God intentionally made this world as it is so that people can question the "benevolence" of God and become doubters.
Maybe this is all a test.
Who knows.
I think you misunderstand the point of view we're looking through to see the issue. We're looking from a birds eye perspective, looking down on the world as God would in a way. We're completely removing ourselves from the equation and considering everyone else. Those like Valanarch and I understand that what you say about Christian view of life/eternity is completely valid. There is plenty of text to remind us of such and the message of the gospel is one of the most important things for non-Christians to know. There lies the central problem; you actually have to listen, understand, and believe in the message to go to heaven otherwise you go to hell.
Pulling up the world religious population statistics page on wikipedia, the world is comprised of 33% Christian. Even if we're assuming Muslims and Jews go to heaven, that brings the number to around 55% . Roughly, for every one person that goes to heaven, another goes to hell for not knowing and accepting the Gospel (discounting lukewarm believers, another issue altogether). I would like to think that God wants every one of his creations in heaven because cares enough and is a all loving father figure so a maximum 55% success rate for an omnipotent being is an astounding failure. If this life is merely the test and the test is for you to hear the gospel and accept it, clearly this guy should give his creation time to complete such tasks. Natural disasters like earthquakes and tsunamis claim lives and many of those are people who won't get to hear the message and go to hell presumably. God should be stopping these or preventing them from happening in the first place because he cares enough for us to try to give us our best shot in getting into heaven.
edit: with these current numbers in mind, I find it hard to believe that God really cares for us. This looks more like a guy who said **** it, and tipped the first domino over and left the building
One of the major premise of conventional Christian thought is that our physical life is irrelevant in comparison to our spiritual one, and that is why the acceptance of Christ and God and their dominion over you essentially supersedes what you do in life.
I still don't see what the point of life is if it is just a test to see if you will accept Christ and God. I mean, why not just keep all of our immortal souls in Heaven then? Why create life just for the purpose of damning some souls to Hell?
Within that context, all of your opinions are void anyhow. I'm honestly surprised that supposed former Christians like Valanarch never even considered this.
I am not a former Christian. I am a former Jew. While this is a debate with Christians (it says so in the title), I entered to debate with Christians, which means that I don't have to be a former one.
This is why I have a hard time taking many Christians seriously in the first place. For all the crap in the New Testament about how the suffering and rewards of the physical world pales in comparison to the treasures of the next (heck, this is essentially the concept that underpins most of what Jesus says in the Gospels), I find it incredibly silly that most "Christians" I've met can't bring themselves to just accept the Word. Why bother calling yourself a Christian if you're not going to do what your holy text tells you?
I can understand people worrying about things. You are human, and you will worry. But, if you are an actual Christian, then why is it so hard for you to remind yourself what the Gospels say and try to not worry?
So many Christians are worry-warts or petty in such inconsequential manners. And these are the folks who go to church every Sunday and call themselves Christians.
How is this relevant to what is being said here?
Those who do not accept Christ will be very much concerned with what happens now. Imho, that is what fundamentally separates a non-Christian from a Christian. A non-Christian doesn't accept that the 60-80 years they live here is utterly and completely irrelevant compared to the infinity that is the next life, and so don't bother preparing themselves for the next. A Christian does accept that the 60-80 years they live here is utterly and completely irrelevant to the infinity that is the next life, and so will bother preparing themselves for the next. Mainly by accepting Christ as their lord and savior and not doing anything that goes against what he says.
So, my question to "former Christians"- Can you really call yourself "former Christians" if you never even accepted this in the first place?
[quote]Hell, for all I know God intentionally made this world as it is so that people can question the "benevolence" of God and become doubters.
And why did God create people if the entire point of creation is so that people can doubt God and be damned to hell?
Maybe this is all a test.
Who knows.
And guess what, God has failed that test. You cannot be good if you kill innocent people. That is simply fact. I can accept God being beyond the human concepts of good and evil. But I cannot except the idea of a god who is good, but kills innocent people and damns them to eternal suffering in Hell for no comprehensible reason.
This is why I have a hard time taking many Christians seriously in the first place. For all the crap in the New Testament about how the suffering and rewards of the physical world pales in comparison to the treasures of the next (heck, this is essentially the concept that underpins most of what Jesus says in the Gospels), I find it incredibly silly that most "Christians" I've met can't bring themselves to just accept the Word. Why bother calling yourself a Christian if you're not going to do what your holy text tells you?
I can understand people worrying about things. You are human, and you will worry. But, if you are an actual Christian, then why is it so hard for you to remind yourself what the Gospels say and try to not worry?
Are you being serious right now?
You cannot imagine why anyone would find it difficult to walk a path of faith? Really? Have you been doing it long?
I'll tell you some of my experiences with God... I belive there's a God, I repeat, but I highly doubt there's something such as an all-loving father... If any, gnostics were right and our God is indeed a poor god-complex crybaby aeon who can't stand his toys doing else and lives only to troll them (Ialdabaoth).
Ok so God know how much I've want to travel to other places and marry a foreign woman. I have litterally prayed for it since 12 because adults told me "pray and He will give to you". Well, I met a Korean exchange student when I was 15, we REALLY liked each other but she was very shy and maleable, so since I live in a place flooded with racism towards asians, her classmates invented stories about me that ultimately led her away, and it really hurted me since they did whatever so I couldn't fix my image. Worse, it was a nun school, a catholic school, I asked the nuns for help and they did nothing since I was even young for having a gf and it seemed they participated in that little racist "lie the asian" game as well. Well so God lets me know a foreign woman, and then, he doesn't helps his son (me, I think) go thru all those lies regardless of the prayers.
Years later, I get introduced to another foreign lady, and when I thought maybe God listened to me already, it turns out she was just using me to know where to have fun, then dumped me.
When I asked a priest about it, he told me "God is not a genie in a lamp"...
So, for once I'm supposed to belive God cares ENOUGH about me to give me what I ask him if I keep on praying, but at the same time, if God just DOESN'T feels like it he then ignores people. Because if God gives me only what I need let me tell you he knows no s*** about me, since my mother has been the one to make sacrifices enough for it, and those spititual or material stuff I need help with... Well God has never done anything besides the basics.
Now on these subject where... when I've avoided some accident or terrible fate, it's God, because God know about us and he wants me alive for whatever reason, just a cog more on the clock, he needs me alive for a while more so some other idiot makes his destiny possible at expenses of my existance, and he's as expendable as me.
So, I was walking to make some exercise, while I walked it started raining so I had to come back. When I came back home it stopped raining. Turns out some other guy that was walking near me was murdered by some psycho that day, and my mother said "Praise God, he sent you a signal so you came back. There are not coincidences, only God!".
Well you could say the guy pretty much died in my place because he is no longer useful for God and I still have to give enough elbow grease if I hope to be an useful puppet and go to experience eterinty in a palce where I'll lose al my freedom and individuality?
And more on coincidencies...
One morning there was an earthquake, then, after the earthquake my perfectly healthy dog that last night played with me puked blood, that same earthquake day we had to sacrifice her on the vet and burry her, just to get a text message of my ex telling me sorry but she's dating the guy I hate and pretty much stopped talking to me. Well then mother said "That's not God, just coincidencies".
Whoa.
So everythign good is God, but everything bad no matter how compelxly orchestrated, is a coincidence. So I'm to belive God didn't do it. Well since Satan isn't as powerful as God and uses human will to do his trickery or whatever, because then Satan didn't cause an earthquake, killed my dog, and paired my ex with a bully that broke our friendship... The only logical explanation here is God but oh well, I forget he's supposed to be such a good, lovely, caring entity!
I'm really sorry if I'm offending christians here, because even I find "yeesus" and God jokes disrespectful for those who well, think He's good... But really, just answer me, how am I or anyone supposed to love someone who doesn't seems to care an inch about what you feel as a SON?
Killing people without cause is not good. It isn't even neutral. It is evil. I honestly would rather believe in no God than believe in a God who cares less about human life than about his mystical great plan that none of us petty mortals know about.
He cares for human life dearly. Why if he does not care for human life has he commanded us to not take it?
And guess what, God has failed that test. You cannot be good if you kill innocent people. That is simply fact. I can accept God being beyond the human concepts of good and evil. But I cannot except the idea of a god who is good, but kills innocent people and damns them to eternal suffering in Hell for no comprehensible reason.
Who exactly is these innocent people of who you speak? Are we talking about the Old Testament people God brings to judgement? Those where nations of serial killers and child murderers. Not innocent by any means.
And why did God create people if the entire point of creation is so that people can doubt God and be damned to hell?
We where all condemned by our very nature. Luckily he sent his only begotten Son so that we may not be dammned but through Him find salvation.
I still don't see what the point of life is if it is just a test to see if you will accept Christ and God. I mean, why not just keep all of our immortal souls in Heaven then? Why create life just for the purpose of damning some souls to Hell?
Are you claiming a life not lived is a better option? Are you not at the very least happy you where given this life (Even if you will face judgment in the next)
All I can say is Valanarch you seem to be in desperate need of some time spent with a priest. I hope you will get that spiritual advice to help you out of your crisis of faith.
Killing people without cause is not good. It isn't even neutral. It is evil. I honestly would rather believe in no God than believe in a God who cares less about human life than about his mystical great plan that none of us petty mortals know about.
He cares for human life dearly. Why if he does not care for human life has he commanded us to not take it?
If he cares so much for human life, then why does he take it from the innocent before their time has come?
And guess what, God has failed that test. You cannot be good if you kill innocent people. That is simply fact. I can accept God being beyond the human concepts of good and evil. But I cannot except the idea of a god who is good, but kills innocent people and damns them to eternal suffering in Hell for no comprehensible reason.
Who exactly is these innocent people of who you speak? Are we talking about the Old Testament people God brings to judgement? Those where nations of serial killers and child murderers. Not innocent by any means.
As I said before, I am a former Jew, not a former Christian, so if I get any of this wrong please let me know. Don't you have to accpet Christ to go to Heaven? So when a tsunami hits Japan and a bunch of Buddhists die, they will get damned to Hell. And all of this is because God designed the world in a way that allows for catastrophic natural disasters to exist, which implies that God really doesn't care.
And why did God create people if the entire point of creation is so that people can doubt God and be damned to hell?
We where all condemned by our very nature. Luckily he sent his only begotten Son so that we may not be dammned but through Him find salvation.
That is avoiding the question. If it wasn't for creation, there would have been no original sin. God is omniscient, so he would have known this. So why would he create a world specifically for the purpose of causing people to sin and then damning them to eternal suffering? And how is this good in any sense of the word?
I still don't see what the point of life is if it is just a test to see if you will accept Christ and God. I mean, why not just keep all of our immortal souls in Heaven then? Why create life just for the purpose of damning some souls to Hell?
Are you claiming a life not lived is a better option? Are you not at the very least happy you where given this life (Even if you will face judgment in the next)
If I understand correctly, according to Christianity our souls were in Heaven with God before we were born. So why would I prefer a life where I suffer and toil and very well might be damned to eternal pain an torture to skipping all of that and going straight to paradise?
All I can say is Valanarch you seem to be in desperate need of some time spent with a priest. I hope you will get that spiritual advice to help you out of your crisis of faith.
Asked my Rabbi this question. All that she could say was that she didn't know why God created the world like this, but that we have to accept that the world is the way that it is. That is not a good enough answer.
Who exactly is these innocent people of who you speak? Are we talking about the Old Testament people God brings to judgement? Those where nations of serial killers and child murderers. Not innocent by any means.
On the killing of the innocent: there is a caveat in Christianity that those who die before having the chance to come to Christ (i.e. all the children and others killed) are immediately accepted into the arms of God so long as they lived a good life according to their beliefs. So, if a Voodoo Priest who dedicated his life to helping others (not that uncommon an occurrence) and had never before been taught Christianity were to die, then he would fall under the innocent category (which includes children and babies.).
Also, a big part of my personal belief is in different degrees of glory. (note, this is some big mormon stuff.)
the first degree of glory, the Terrestial Kingdom, is a bit better than earth: here are sent the murderers, the rapists, and your general bad people.
the second degree of glory, the Telestial Kingdom, is where those who, while they lived a decent life, didn't make the necessary covenants and such. This kingdom has been described as so glorious and splendid, that if you saw it, you would immediately kill yourself just to be there. So, in order to get here, all you have to do is be a decent person.
the third degree of glory, the Celestial Kingdom, is where God resides. here is sent the ones who made the proper covenants and stuck to their covenants, here is also where the innocent are sent.
there is a "hell" of sorts, outer darkness, where Satan and Cain reside, which can be entered only by committing the "unforgivable sin", or knowing the truth (not just believing it) and then rejecting it, or "open rebellion" against God. So, the worst you can really do is basically earth if you are a complete scumbag, minus the death/destruction.
I know this doesn't really line up with other Christian beliefs, but still, it's there.
First of all, I've already made my experience as a confirmed catholic. I used to be an atheist but I started doubting we're really here out of the blue, in my opinion, it's impossible to explain the universe based on cience alone, I'm sure there must be an entity greater than us. After years of defending my religion tho, I noticed how God seems not to care about what you want, as an individual, as a person, but what he BELIVES is better. Christians call this "freedom", I call it a disguised Tyrany.
Ok, so if God is our father, isn't he supposed to listen to us once in a while? People say God follows this logic: Don't ask God for a bike because he doesn't works that way, steal the bike, and ask for forgiveness. People say God gives, on his time, and only what he thinks is good for you, so in a way or another we're limited to what God thinks s best for an individual instead of him trying to listen to what we expect and want from life. Other religions seem to have gods who actually care, but I am more inclined to belive the cosmos is the creation of an individual entity.
Then there's the issue on Heaven, eternity. If you follow God, act like a good human being and help others out, you go to heaven. But what is Heaven? A place where pretty much you'll lose your identity and individuality in order to be one with God, the cosmos, whatever. As I've seen many Christians and people who's had NDE describe Heaven that way. You won't feel the air never again, not taste the food. Your family won't br your family. You won't be able to kiss your wife any more, hug your kid... That's pretty much hell without the physicall tortures. And that reafirms God only cares about what he thinks is right for the soul instead of trying to listen.
Also if he's our father, he needs like, to do something other than showing nothing but indiference once in a while. If he's a fatherly figure he's doing it wrong. We live in the *****tiest world possible and he really, doesn't seems to care, he just makes a miracle once in a while to some random person to say "Hey, I enjoy looking at all of you suffer, keep it up, maybe in 4 months or so I'll let Mary appear again somewhere so you all get paranoid and belive world's ending again!"
I mean, mother says "Thank God because you're fortunate to have a house, parents and a meal". Why should I? Father is the one who has tried to give us that. Indeed God is much like my father; he's only worried about giving the "basics" and the rest well... I've had to work for it.
And when I need divine intervention to get what I desire, even non material stuff, it just never comes. "Ask God and you'll get what you want" is to me the biggest lie after unicorns.
So, I belive there's a God, but one that cares nothing about us, and really I have my doubts about Jesus being the son of God...
I don't believe heaven is being one with anything, heaven is instead what I like to call "eternal progression". you are there, with your family, and your friends, and you are continually learning new things until eventually you can create your own universe and your own children and bring them to the same level of happiness that you are in.
on the subject of asking forgiveness rather than the bike, this is how I feel it works: I ask for a bike, God will give me opportunities to earn that bike. If I pray for family unity, he isn't going to just say "o.k, your all in synch now." He will give you opportunities to build that unity. After all, we are saved by the grace of god after all that we can do. We try as hard as we can, and then God makes up the rest.
while we do live in a rather crapsack world, that is a very pessimistic view of things. yes, there is death. yes, there is war. but that is nothing new, humans have been killing humans and being cruel to humans for all of history. Instead, focus on the positive. outlook is half of anything. The technological advances in the last few decades alone is incredible.
Another way to look at it is: if you're going to blame God for all of the bad, you have to give him credit for the good as well.
My shift is about to start, so I'll post more when I have time.
"normality is a paved road: it is comfortable to walk, but no flowers grow there."
-Vincent Van Gogh
things I hate:
1. lists.
b. inconsistencies.
V. incorrect math.
2. quotes in signatures
III: irony.
there are two kinds of people in the world: those who can make reasonable conclusions based on conjecture.
I may have missed your point, and if so I apologize, but -- as a father of two (soon to be three), there are *many* times where I do not give my kids what they want, but instead I give them what they need. That doesn't mean I don't love them, it in fact means the opposite. I Love them enough to be willing to put their best interest before my own desire to make them happy in the short term.
I would love nothing more than for my kids to always be smiling and happy. But, giving them candy for dinner, and avoiding the temper tantrum now is detrimental in the long run. Even though it will make them upset in the short term.
Well that might be true for those in developed countries but lets just look at kids in sweatshops in India/China or starving children in Africa. They don't even have basic needs or it is not guaranteed in the slightest. Clearly those beings are children of God as well so why would he not try to care for them?
I think you're missing the point. The parent and child example is an analogy. God (the parent) knows what's good for us (the children). A kid thinks eating vegetables is bad and would much rather eat candy, but the parent knows vegetables are good in the long run. Likewise, we see suffering/sickness/poverty/death as bad, we would rather eat candy (have a comfortable, happy life), but God has an ultimate plan for all these things we perceive as bad and this ultimate plan is what's really good for us. So God is caring for all the starving children of the world, just not in a way that makes sense to our simple human minds.
An argument against this line of thinking is: why does God bother to tell human beings to love one another and refrain from killing and stealing, if in fact all of the world's problems and ills are part of his plan? Why doesn't he just say "make the world as terrible as possible, I'll sort it out in the long run."
The immediate question that came into my mind when I read this is, "What is it you didn't get?"
Now, you don't have to answer that, that's an extremely personal question and I don't expect you to. But I will ask how recent this was. I wonder, after a few years have passed, how you would respond if you asked yourself whether you weren't better off not getting it.
Wait, WHAT? Who the **** told you that?
Oh God listens to what you're saying. That doesn't mean God is beholden to you. God works on his plan, not yours.
Who told you this?
Oh who cares about near death experiences? You know what near death experiences tell us? Nothing. Some see Heaven. Some see Hell. Some see something correlating to a completely different afterlife from another religion. Some don't have an afterlife experience at all. There's no reason to think they're any more than products of your brain doing funny things because the body is dying.
Where are you getting all of this?
No... We don't.
I don't necessarily care so much about what you believe religiously, but if you're not grateful to have a house, parents, and food, then I don't really know what to tell you. Those are great things to have and many people don't.
In fact, I'm going to go back to what you said earlier: "We live in the *****tiest world possible"? You have a roof over your head and food on the table. What if you didn't have either of those? Would that not constitute a *****tier world?
That's fine. The most important thing is that you be honest with yourself about what you believe. Beyond anything else, the best advice I can give you is to walk forward with that belief and see how it holds up.
Because the fact that you have parents who provide you a stable and secure life has absolutely nothing to do with what you did.
Indeed, this concept so troubled people that they came up with Hinduism and Buddhism.
Majority of those kids will go to hell if the current statistics on world population and religion are true (something God clearly doesn't want but somehow still allows for the oddest reason). If God wanted them in heaven (what's best for us), he would want those beings to live as long as possible for them to hear the gospel message. I could never get why people had the line of thinking where everything that happens in this universe no matter how gruesome, horrible or grotesque, can be reconciled with the fact that it is somehow within God's master plan, that is a ***** plan if the all powerful, all loving, all knowing God can't create a plan worthy of his ascribed traits. I don't buy it for one second because if I was God, I would for sure take better care of my creation. A side note is that I would also communicate my plans clearly with my creation so there isn't any confusion and alternative interpretations that follow.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
So if my dad doesn't do my math homework for me he doesn't really care for me, and he isn't a good person?
Just answer the question.
Explain to me how that is a relevant analogy. The real analogy would be this (at least for what I said about people without the same opportunities as other people). If I cannot do my math homework because I do not have my math book and my dad has my math book, is my dad a good parent if he let's me flunk the class because he won't give me back my book? And for what I said about natural disasters, the analogy would be me finishing my math homework, and then my dad putting it into a paper shredder for no reason.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Now answer the question.
I think it should be more like "If my dad doesn't try to save my life when i'm in danger of dying even though he has the ability to and wouldn't inconvenience him in the slightest, he doesn't really care for me, and he isn't a good person?"
I'm quite sick of that analogy that paints us as a group of people that has the ability to do everything on our own yet we latch on to the parent like some lazy teenage kid with no sense of responsibility. Some things are clearly not in our control and are way out of our league.
One of the major premise of conventional Christian thought is that our physical life is irrelevant in comparison to our spiritual one, and that is why the acceptance of Christ and God and their dominion over you essentially supersedes what you do in life.
Within that context, all of your opinions are void anyhow. I'm honestly surprised that supposed former Christians like Valanarch never even considered this.
But I don't care for that right now.
Edit-
Oh **** it.
This is why I have a hard time taking many Christians seriously in the first place. For all the crap in the New Testament about how the suffering and rewards of the physical world pales in comparison to the treasures of the next (heck, this is essentially the concept that underpins most of what Jesus says in the Gospels), I find it incredibly silly that most "Christians" I've met can't bring themselves to just accept the Word. Why bother calling yourself a Christian if you're not going to do what your holy text tells you?
I can understand people worrying about things. You are human, and you will worry. But, if you are an actual Christian, then why is it so hard for you to remind yourself what the Gospels say and try to not worry?
So many Christians are worry-warts or petty in such inconsequential manners. And these are the folks who go to church every Sunday and call themselves Christians.
How is this relevant to what is being said here?
Those who do not accept Christ will be very much concerned with what happens now. Imho, that is what fundamentally separates a non-Christian from a Christian. A non-Christian doesn't accept that the 60-80 years they live here is utterly and completely irrelevant compared to the infinity that is the next life, and so don't bother preparing themselves for the next. A Christian does accept that the 60-80 years they live here is utterly and completely irrelevant to the infinity that is the next life, and so will bother preparing themselves for the next. Mainly by accepting Christ as their lord and savior and not doing anything that goes against what he says.
So, my question to "former Christians"- Can you really call yourself "former Christians" if you never even accepted this in the first place?
Hell, for all I know God intentionally made this world as it is so that people can question the "benevolence" of God and become doubters.
Maybe this is all a test.
Who knows.
Why should I answer the question? The question has no relevance because the analogy is flawed. My dad would still be a good parent if he didn't do my homework for me. He would not be a good parent if he put it in a paper shredder. Now explain to me how God can be good if he let's people die and suffer because of things that they have no control over?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
It establishes the notion that someone occasionally doing things that are not conductive to your immediate benefit doesn't render said someone "not good" or "uncaring".
Read above.
And death by volcano is not conductive to your benefit in any form. Killing people without cause is not good. It isn't even neutral. It is evil. I honestly would rather believe in no God than believe in a God who cares less about human life than about his mystical great plan that none of us petty mortals know about.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I think you misunderstand the point of view we're looking through to see the issue. We're looking from a birds eye perspective, looking down on the world as God would in a way. We're completely removing ourselves from the equation and considering everyone else. Those like Valanarch and I understand that what you say about Christian view of life/eternity is completely valid. There is plenty of text to remind us of such and the message of the gospel is one of the most important things for non-Christians to know. There lies the central problem; you actually have to listen, understand, and believe in the message to go to heaven otherwise you go to hell.
Pulling up the world religious population statistics page on wikipedia, the world is comprised of 33% Christian. Even if we're assuming Muslims and Jews go to heaven, that brings the number to around 55% . Roughly, for every one person that goes to heaven, another goes to hell for not knowing and accepting the Gospel (discounting lukewarm believers, another issue altogether). I would like to think that God wants every one of his creations in heaven because cares enough and is a all loving father figure so a maximum 55% success rate for an omnipotent being is an astounding failure. If this life is merely the test and the test is for you to hear the gospel and accept it, clearly this guy should give his creation time to complete such tasks. Natural disasters like earthquakes and tsunamis claim lives and many of those are people who won't get to hear the message and go to hell presumably. God should be stopping these or preventing them from happening in the first place because he cares enough for us to try to give us our best shot in getting into heaven.
edit: with these current numbers in mind, I find it hard to believe that God really cares for us. This looks more like a guy who said **** it, and tipped the first domino over and left the building
I still don't see what the point of life is if it is just a test to see if you will accept Christ and God. I mean, why not just keep all of our immortal souls in Heaven then? Why create life just for the purpose of damning some souls to Hell?
I am not a former Christian. I am a former Jew. While this is a debate with Christians (it says so in the title), I entered to debate with Christians, which means that I don't have to be a former one.
And why did God create people if the entire point of creation is so that people can doubt God and be damned to hell?
And guess what, God has failed that test. You cannot be good if you kill innocent people. That is simply fact. I can accept God being beyond the human concepts of good and evil. But I cannot except the idea of a god who is good, but kills innocent people and damns them to eternal suffering in Hell for no comprehensible reason.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Are you being serious right now?
You cannot imagine why anyone would find it difficult to walk a path of faith? Really? Have you been doing it long?
Ok so God know how much I've want to travel to other places and marry a foreign woman. I have litterally prayed for it since 12 because adults told me "pray and He will give to you". Well, I met a Korean exchange student when I was 15, we REALLY liked each other but she was very shy and maleable, so since I live in a place flooded with racism towards asians, her classmates invented stories about me that ultimately led her away, and it really hurted me since they did whatever so I couldn't fix my image. Worse, it was a nun school, a catholic school, I asked the nuns for help and they did nothing since I was even young for having a gf and it seemed they participated in that little racist "lie the asian" game as well. Well so God lets me know a foreign woman, and then, he doesn't helps his son (me, I think) go thru all those lies regardless of the prayers.
Years later, I get introduced to another foreign lady, and when I thought maybe God listened to me already, it turns out she was just using me to know where to have fun, then dumped me.
When I asked a priest about it, he told me "God is not a genie in a lamp"...
So, for once I'm supposed to belive God cares ENOUGH about me to give me what I ask him if I keep on praying, but at the same time, if God just DOESN'T feels like it he then ignores people. Because if God gives me only what I need let me tell you he knows no s*** about me, since my mother has been the one to make sacrifices enough for it, and those spititual or material stuff I need help with... Well God has never done anything besides the basics.
Now on these subject where... when I've avoided some accident or terrible fate, it's God, because God know about us and he wants me alive for whatever reason, just a cog more on the clock, he needs me alive for a while more so some other idiot makes his destiny possible at expenses of my existance, and he's as expendable as me.
So, I was walking to make some exercise, while I walked it started raining so I had to come back. When I came back home it stopped raining. Turns out some other guy that was walking near me was murdered by some psycho that day, and my mother said "Praise God, he sent you a signal so you came back. There are not coincidences, only God!".
Well you could say the guy pretty much died in my place because he is no longer useful for God and I still have to give enough elbow grease if I hope to be an useful puppet and go to experience eterinty in a palce where I'll lose al my freedom and individuality?
And more on coincidencies...
One morning there was an earthquake, then, after the earthquake my perfectly healthy dog that last night played with me puked blood, that same earthquake day we had to sacrifice her on the vet and burry her, just to get a text message of my ex telling me sorry but she's dating the guy I hate and pretty much stopped talking to me. Well then mother said "That's not God, just coincidencies".
Whoa.
So everythign good is God, but everything bad no matter how compelxly orchestrated, is a coincidence. So I'm to belive God didn't do it. Well since Satan isn't as powerful as God and uses human will to do his trickery or whatever, because then Satan didn't cause an earthquake, killed my dog, and paired my ex with a bully that broke our friendship... The only logical explanation here is God but oh well, I forget he's supposed to be such a good, lovely, caring entity!
I'm really sorry if I'm offending christians here, because even I find "yeesus" and God jokes disrespectful for those who well, think He's good... But really, just answer me, how am I or anyone supposed to love someone who doesn't seems to care an inch about what you feel as a SON?
He cares for human life dearly. Why if he does not care for human life has he commanded us to not take it?
Who exactly is these innocent people of who you speak? Are we talking about the Old Testament people God brings to judgement? Those where nations of serial killers and child murderers. Not innocent by any means.
We where all condemned by our very nature. Luckily he sent his only begotten Son so that we may not be dammned but through Him find salvation.
Are you claiming a life not lived is a better option? Are you not at the very least happy you where given this life (Even if you will face judgment in the next)
All I can say is Valanarch you seem to be in desperate need of some time spent with a priest. I hope you will get that spiritual advice to help you out of your crisis of faith.
If he cares so much for human life, then why does he take it from the innocent before their time has come?
As I said before, I am a former Jew, not a former Christian, so if I get any of this wrong please let me know. Don't you have to accpet Christ to go to Heaven? So when a tsunami hits Japan and a bunch of Buddhists die, they will get damned to Hell. And all of this is because God designed the world in a way that allows for catastrophic natural disasters to exist, which implies that God really doesn't care.
That is avoiding the question. If it wasn't for creation, there would have been no original sin. God is omniscient, so he would have known this. So why would he create a world specifically for the purpose of causing people to sin and then damning them to eternal suffering? And how is this good in any sense of the word?
If I understand correctly, according to Christianity our souls were in Heaven with God before we were born. So why would I prefer a life where I suffer and toil and very well might be damned to eternal pain an torture to skipping all of that and going straight to paradise?
Asked my Rabbi this question. All that she could say was that she didn't know why God created the world like this, but that we have to accept that the world is the way that it is. That is not a good enough answer.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
We are talking about people in the now. Here's a handy little list of God's wonderful work for you.
Also, a big part of my personal belief is in different degrees of glory. (note, this is some big mormon stuff.)
the first degree of glory, the Terrestial Kingdom, is a bit better than earth: here are sent the murderers, the rapists, and your general bad people.
the second degree of glory, the Telestial Kingdom, is where those who, while they lived a decent life, didn't make the necessary covenants and such. This kingdom has been described as so glorious and splendid, that if you saw it, you would immediately kill yourself just to be there. So, in order to get here, all you have to do is be a decent person.
the third degree of glory, the Celestial Kingdom, is where God resides. here is sent the ones who made the proper covenants and stuck to their covenants, here is also where the innocent are sent.
there is a "hell" of sorts, outer darkness, where Satan and Cain reside, which can be entered only by committing the "unforgivable sin", or knowing the truth (not just believing it) and then rejecting it, or "open rebellion" against God. So, the worst you can really do is basically earth if you are a complete scumbag, minus the death/destruction.
I know this doesn't really line up with other Christian beliefs, but still, it's there.
"normality is a paved road: it is comfortable to walk, but no flowers grow there."
-Vincent Van Gogh
things I hate:
1. lists.
b. inconsistencies.
V. incorrect math.
2. quotes in signatures
III: irony.
there are two kinds of people in the world: those who can make reasonable conclusions based on conjecture.