The other day I saw an article about Sunday Assembly, a community meeting for atheists who want to bring atheists together in the same way that religious services bring the faithful together, and just want to hear what people think about it.
I'm interested in attending a meeting and may even organize one in my area. Many religious people just don't understand how lucky they are to be able to go to church/temple/whatever and be surrounded by people who believe what you do in a peaceful and affirming environment. I want the same thing and also the ability to organize and do positive things for the community(e.g. food pantry, soup kitchen, clothing drive, etc). Other atheists probably feel the same way and I have high hopes for a Western NY group.
It's a truly sad day when Atheists, or even anti-theist agnostics (like myself), decide to have "church services".
Even if it's in jest, or a deliberate mocking of religion - the fact is that it does exactly what some of us hate religion for doing.
It gets like minded people in one place, then through peer pressure and charismatic indoctrination, forces them into a dogma they must follow or be ostracized and/or excluded from others.
In my book dogma and religious indoctrination is bad, whether there is a God on the wall or not.
Sure, this thing might start out fun and friendly, and a great meeting place for people who think alike. But give it time, and the human nature of greed and power will bastardize it.
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“Thus strangely are our souls constructed, and by slight ligaments
are we bound to prosperity and ruin.”
― Mary Shelley, Frankenstein
It's a truly sad day when Atheists, or even anti-theist agnostics (like myself), decide to have "church services".
Even if it's in jest, or a deliberate mocking of religion - the fact is that it does exactly what some of us hate religion for doing.
It gets like minded people in one place, then through peer pressure and charismatic indoctrination, forces them into a dogma they must follow or be ostracized and/or excluded from others.
In my book dogma and religious indoctrination is bad, whether there is a God on the wall or not.
Sure, this thing might start out fun and friendly, and a great meeting place for people who think alike. But give it time, and the human nature of greed and power will bastardize it.
So, like-minded people shouldn't gather to talk about what they like, at all?
Because that's basically what you're saying.
I mean, what you're basically railing at is human nature itself, not religion or any organization.
I'm only saying that the last thing Disbelief in Gods needs, is organization.
I'm not against like minded people getting together sometimes. I'm against them having "church".
People who hate blacks and Jews can get together sure, but when they start meeting every Thursday at Jim's house, and singing songs and ****, it becomes The Clan.
People who believe in the sacrifice of Jesus can get together sure, but when they start meeting every Sunday at Paul's house, and singing songs and ****, and having ritual-like practices, it becomes The Catholic Church.
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“Thus strangely are our souls constructed, and by slight ligaments
are we bound to prosperity and ruin.”
― Mary Shelley, Frankenstein
Because as an anti-theist agnostic, (basically a 5 on Dawkin's scale, who hates organized religion) I do not look forward to disbelief becoming a bastardized form of theism.
Since I hate organized religion, so too would I hate organized disbelief.
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“Thus strangely are our souls constructed, and by slight ligaments
are we bound to prosperity and ruin.”
― Mary Shelley, Frankenstein
What you're effectively saying, based off your previous posts, is that you think any form of organization by like-minded people is bad. Because it could lead to a greater solidifying of beliefs held by said organization, and people acting upon their beliefs and desires of that organization.
Like you said, it can very well lead to people getting bull-headed and unable to work with possible conflicting information, vice versa. Blah blah, basically human tendencies.
Thus, you're against human nature and our tendency to want to congregate with like-minded people and feel secure.
Which is an interesting argument, to say the least. Not that I oppose it, but I just find it interesting.
Either you're not phrasing your opinions correctly, or I'm reading them wrong.
I mean, fundamentally speaking, all organizations are groups of like-minded individuals who come together to discuss something that they all find themselves connected by. These organizations may be completely irrelevant to public policy, or they may not. That depends on what their interest is.
Regardless, an organization is still a grouping of like-minded individuals.
Right, but many organizations do not have anything to do with the philosophical beliefs their members have, nor the positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, or conversion of any of their members beliefs.
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Thanks to Xenphire @ Inkfox for the amazing new sig
“Thus strangely are our souls constructed, and by slight ligaments
are we bound to prosperity and ruin.”
― Mary Shelley, Frankenstein
What you're effectively saying, based off your previous posts, is that you think any form of organization by like-minded people is bad. Because it could lead to a greater solidifying of beliefs held by said organization, and people acting upon their beliefs and desires of that organization.
Like you said, it can very well lead to people getting bull-headed and unable to work with possible conflicting information, vice versa. Blah blah, basically human tendencies.
Thus, you're against human nature and our tendency to want to congregate with like-minded people and feel secure.
Which is an interesting argument, to say the least. Not that I oppose it, but I just find it interesting.
Except you can have communities that are not dogmatic organizations that indoctrinate, right?
I'm really confused by that link. You're describing assemblies of people belonging to a movement around a religious stance that are attending services that advocate particular beliefs, and particular actions which stem from those beliefs.
Which sounds like a religion to me. So, Bitsy, I'm not sure where you see the separation between what religious people do and what these Sunday Assembly people are doing.
As an atheist I don't think I would want to set up meetings for atheists.
I would rather phrase it as a meeting of freethinkers or something like that. Where religious/non-religious and theist/atheists are welcome. I wouldn't want to shut out opposing viewpoints just because they don't match my own.
I'm really confused by that link. You're describing assemblies of people belonging to a movement around a religious stance that are attending services that advocate particular beliefs, and particular actions which stem from those beliefs.
Which sounds like a religion to me. So, Bitsy, I'm not sure where you see the separation between what religious people do and what these Sunday Assembly people are doing.
Atheism isn't a religion, as the name might suggest. What made you think it is?
As an atheist I don't think I would want to set up meetings for atheists.
I would rather phrase it as a meeting of freethinkers or something like that. Where religious/non-religious and theist/atheists are welcome. I wouldn't want to shut out opposing viewpoints just because they don't match my own.
Sunday Assembly doesn't bar the doors against theists and in fact welcomes them to come celebrate human life with them. There's no gain in denying them entry. Its really a matter of comfort in the end. I feel really uncomfortable in church because not only do I not believe in the faith based tenets of any religion but also I am forever an outsider because of that lack of faith.
Atheism isn't a religion, as the name might suggest. What made you think it is?
No, I'm not saying atheism is. Atheism is just that: a-theism, lack of belief in God or gods or deities.
But what you're describing here involves a codified belief system, and people engaging in ceremonial services that advance said beliefs and actions based on those beliefs.
That describes what a religion is. So again, would you care to explain the differences you perceive between what religious people do during their ceremonies and what these Sunday Assembly people do in their services?
But what you're describing here involves a codified belief system, and people engaging in ceremonial services that advance said beliefs and actions based on those beliefs.
What codified belief system? Please tell me because I legitimately don't see what you do.
That describes what a religion is. So again, would you care to explain the differences you perceive between what religious people do during their ceremonies and what these Sunday Assembly people do in their services?
Sunday Assembly, unlike religious services, is devoted to the betterment of humanity by humans themselves. There are no blessings, sins, or afterlife considerations to bring people in or keep them coming. What you see at Sunday Assembly is what is being offered! Conversation, songs, games, and tea & biscuits.
But what you're describing here involves a codified belief system, and people engaging in ceremonial services that advance said beliefs and actions based on those beliefs.
That is almost word for word what Anton Lavey thought was the difference between secular humanism and his 'atheist religion'.
Except you can have communities that are not dogmatic organizations that indoctrinate, right?
So only religious people indoctrinate?
That describes what a religion is. So again, would you care to explain the differences you perceive between what religious people do during their ceremonies and what these Sunday Assembly people do in their services?
Chruch of Satan is atheism contrary to that view. Not widespread by any means but at the very least a counter point.
I'm interested in attending a meeting and may even organize one in my area. Many religious people just don't understand how lucky they are to be able to go to church/temple/whatever and be surrounded by people who believe what you do in a peaceful and affirming environment. I want the same thing and also the ability to organize and do positive things for the community(e.g. food pantry, soup kitchen, clothing drive, etc). Other atheists probably feel the same way and I have high hopes for a Western NY group.
Even if it's in jest, or a deliberate mocking of religion - the fact is that it does exactly what some of us hate religion for doing.
It gets like minded people in one place, then through peer pressure and charismatic indoctrination, forces them into a dogma they must follow or be ostracized and/or excluded from others.
In my book dogma and religious indoctrination is bad, whether there is a God on the wall or not.
Sure, this thing might start out fun and friendly, and a great meeting place for people who think alike. But give it time, and the human nature of greed and power will bastardize it.
Thanks to Xenphire @ Inkfox for the amazing new sig
“Thus strangely are our souls constructed, and by slight ligaments
are we bound to prosperity and ruin.”
― Mary Shelley, Frankenstein
So, like-minded people shouldn't gather to talk about what they like, at all?
Because that's basically what you're saying.
I mean, what you're basically railing at is human nature itself, not religion or any organization.
I'm not against like minded people getting together sometimes. I'm against them having "church".
People who hate blacks and Jews can get together sure, but when they start meeting every Thursday at Jim's house, and singing songs and ****, it becomes The Clan.
People who believe in the sacrifice of Jesus can get together sure, but when they start meeting every Sunday at Paul's house, and singing songs and ****, and having ritual-like practices, it becomes The Catholic Church.
Thanks to Xenphire @ Inkfox for the amazing new sig
“Thus strangely are our souls constructed, and by slight ligaments
are we bound to prosperity and ruin.”
― Mary Shelley, Frankenstein
Why?
Since I hate organized religion, so too would I hate organized disbelief.
Thanks to Xenphire @ Inkfox for the amazing new sig
“Thus strangely are our souls constructed, and by slight ligaments
are we bound to prosperity and ruin.”
― Mary Shelley, Frankenstein
What you're effectively saying, based off your previous posts, is that you think any form of organization by like-minded people is bad. Because it could lead to a greater solidifying of beliefs held by said organization, and people acting upon their beliefs and desires of that organization.
Like you said, it can very well lead to people getting bull-headed and unable to work with possible conflicting information, vice versa. Blah blah, basically human tendencies.
Thus, you're against human nature and our tendency to want to congregate with like-minded people and feel secure.
Which is an interesting argument, to say the least. Not that I oppose it, but I just find it interesting.
But I'm not against all organizations. There are plenty of organization models I'm okay with.
Thanks to Xenphire @ Inkfox for the amazing new sig
“Thus strangely are our souls constructed, and by slight ligaments
are we bound to prosperity and ruin.”
― Mary Shelley, Frankenstein
Either you're not phrasing your opinions correctly, or I'm reading them wrong.
I mean, fundamentally speaking, all organizations are groups of like-minded individuals who come together to discuss something that they all find themselves connected by. These organizations may be completely irrelevant to public policy, or they may not. That depends on what their interest is.
Regardless, an organization is still a grouping of like-minded individuals.
Thanks to Xenphire @ Inkfox for the amazing new sig
“Thus strangely are our souls constructed, and by slight ligaments
are we bound to prosperity and ruin.”
― Mary Shelley, Frankenstein
Except you can have communities that are not dogmatic organizations that indoctrinate, right?
I'm really confused by that link. You're describing assemblies of people belonging to a movement around a religious stance that are attending services that advocate particular beliefs, and particular actions which stem from those beliefs.
Which sounds like a religion to me. So, Bitsy, I'm not sure where you see the separation between what religious people do and what these Sunday Assembly people are doing.
I would rather phrase it as a meeting of freethinkers or something like that. Where religious/non-religious and theist/atheists are welcome. I wouldn't want to shut out opposing viewpoints just because they don't match my own.
My G Yisan, the Bard of Death G deck.
My BUGWR Hermit druid BUGWR deck.
Atheism isn't a religion, as the name might suggest. What made you think it is?
Sunday Assembly doesn't bar the doors against theists and in fact welcomes them to come celebrate human life with them. There's no gain in denying them entry. Its really a matter of comfort in the end. I feel really uncomfortable in church because not only do I not believe in the faith based tenets of any religion but also I am forever an outsider because of that lack of faith.
No, I'm not saying atheism is. Atheism is just that: a-theism, lack of belief in God or gods or deities.
But what you're describing here involves a codified belief system, and people engaging in ceremonial services that advance said beliefs and actions based on those beliefs.
That describes what a religion is. So again, would you care to explain the differences you perceive between what religious people do during their ceremonies and what these Sunday Assembly people do in their services?
What codified belief system? Please tell me because I legitimately don't see what you do.
Sunday Assembly, unlike religious services, is devoted to the betterment of humanity by humans themselves. There are no blessings, sins, or afterlife considerations to bring people in or keep them coming. What you see at Sunday Assembly is what is being offered! Conversation, songs, games, and tea & biscuits.
That is almost word for word what Anton Lavey thought was the difference between secular humanism and his 'atheist religion'.
So only religious people indoctrinate?
Chruch of Satan is atheism contrary to that view. Not widespread by any means but at the very least a counter point.