Do you believe it's wrong that baptism takes place at a young age?
I mean, a baby, through no understanding or choice of it's own gets forcibly put in to a religious circle and can possible remain there for the rest of his or her life, simply due to upbringing.
You can probably read my bias already and see where I personally am leaning from, but I wanted to hear other opinions. Do you think it's wrong that children can join religious groups without proper understanding of what they are joining? Thoughts?
Do you believe it's wrong that baptism takes place at a young age?
Absolutely. I was baptized at a very young age (so young that I cannot remember the event). The event itself means absolutely nothing to me; I really don't understand how it could have any eternal significance with any deity. It was little more than my parents promising to raise me in a Christian household and teach me their values (you can read that as "indoctrinate me").
Later in life I chose to be baptized of my own free will. This event does hold significance for me, and I understood what it meant when I chose to do it. Assuming my faith is correctly placed, I understand why this event could hold eternal significance.
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"[Screw] you and the green you ramped in on." - My EDH battle cry. If I had one. Which I don't.
On the one hand, I can see where you're arguing from; that a person is forced into a lifestyle without any regards to their own volition seems monstrously unfair. Essentially what they are taught and indoctrinate at such a young age will forever shape their thoughts and beliefs later in life.
On the other hand, this phenomenon is common among all things in life; societal values, schooling, dogmas of all varieties, and the opinions and teachings of our parents, authority figures, and peers will inevitably alter how we perceive life. There's little escaping from that; we can't outlaw young child from being baptized no more than we can ban parents from teaching their kids religion in the first place.
But that isn't to say that we're completely enslaved to the constructs of our environment. For those that are strong willed enough, they can decide what they want to believe in. A child who is baptized can always change their religion when they become older and have their own autonomy in life. Now of course there are those who will end up believing in whatever dogma they were taught, but people who think in such a manner will always be like that; even if you allowed that person to never be indoctrinate into any given faith, chances are they'll probably latch on to any faith at a later point in their lives.
Do you believe it's wrong that baptism takes place at a young age?
I mean, a baby, through no understanding or choice of it's own gets forcibly put in to a religious circle and can possible remain there for the rest of his or her life, simply due to upbringing.
You can probably read my bias already and see where I personally am leaning from, but I wanted to hear other opinions. Do you think it's wrong that children can join religious groups without proper understanding of what they are joining? Thoughts?
It's impossible for a religious person to have a big problem with indoctination. They, for the most part, believe that instructing their children in which ever particular religion it is they follow is in the best interest of the child.
Personaly, I have a big beef with it, but what are you going to do? You can't stop people from teaching their children nonsense whether it's about Jesus or Big Foot.
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Our belief is not a belief. Our principles are not a faith. We do not rely solely upon science and reason, because these are necessary rather than sufficient factors, but we distrust anything that contradicts science or outrages reason. We may differ on many things, but what we respect is free inquiry, openmindedness, and the pursuit of ideas for their own sake.
― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great
It's impossible for a religious person to have a big problem with indoctination.
I wouldn't go that far. I might not be a regular church attendee, but I know what I believe in and do so strongly. Regardless, I am just as strongly against indoctrination. Belief needs to be questioned to mean anything.
I will present those beliefs to my child when he's able to understand, and more importantly, to question them. My son will be raised to question everything.*
*Including that.
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"[Screw] you and the green you ramped in on." - My EDH battle cry. If I had one. Which I don't.
It's impossible for a religious person to have a big problem with indoctination. They, for the most part, believe that instructing their children in which ever particular religion it is they follow is in the best interest of the child.
Luckily for us religious folks we are under no obligation to defend how we raise our children to you. Off course we all know that when atheist try to teach to teach their children atheistic values and norms they are not indoctrinating their children.
Luckily for us religious folks we are under no obligation to defend how we raise our children to you. Off course we all know that when atheist try to teach to teach their children atheistic values and norms they are not indoctrinating their children.
Sure, you're not under any "obligation" to defend how you raise you're children the way you do, but the real question is, why do you do it? Why do you baptize children at such a young age? Why don't you allow them to make the decision in life if they want to at a later age when the child has a more firm grasp on what he is actually getting a part of. I think an adult making the decision to join a religious group is much more powerful and potent then a baby joining a religious group. Now, I'm not saying baptism at a young age is evil or anything like that. I was forcibly placed as a member of the Roman Catholic Church since I was a baby, and I now am an Anti-Theist. I don't despise my parents for making me join the church, I just would have rather had the choice later on in life, after answering some questions I have set out for myself about life and the universe. Don't force babies do join your church or convince them on the values of the church at a young age. I don't believe that's right.
And teaching children the values and morals of a given society at a very young age isn't indoctrination by the apparent way you folks are using the term here?
What if the kid who grew up in the U.S. and its culture and belief system wants to live in, say, a Korean culture and belief system (markedly different in many, many ways, though western thought is penetrating ever deeper and deeper) when he's an adult? And he hates the U.S. culture that he grew up in for whatever reason?
Is it different because it's not like the parent can move to Korea or do something to allow the kid to choose what culture and value-system he believes in? Bull****. Christians consider their religion a big part of their identity. There really is no difference between religion and your given culture-system, and this is part of the reason why religion often becomes a large part of the given culture itself.
Why do I try to teach my children the religion which I believes saves you from eternal damnation and gives you a blissful afterlife in paradise? I do not mean to be snide by answering your question with another question I just trying to explain as best as I can.
Why do you baptize children at such a young age?
Because their is the issue of what happens to people who have not heard and for some people it is better to baptise as infants than risking your children dying before they have the chance to accept Jesus as saviour. Which would be bad for Christian parents.
Why don't you allow them to make the decision in life if they want to at a later age when the child has a more firm grasp on what he is actually getting a part of.
Some churches do prefer adult baptism.
Don't force babies do join your church or convince them on the values of the church at a young age. I don't believe that's right.
Nobody is forcing anyone. As far as I know you only officially become a member of a church after going to confirmation class and have communion for the first time. All of which happens when you become a adult.
As an atheist, I don't have a problem with this. First, I think that a non-consenting person necessarily can't be part of a religion so it doesn't matter. Second, on the question of indoctrination, I agree with bakgat. I don't have the same believes that he does, but it still makes perfect sense why he'd want to pass that belief along. Don't get me wrong, I think he's doing a disservice to the child, however, it's impossible to understand why he'd act otherwise.
I'm an atheist and my gf and I baptised our child. It was my gf's idea - she wanted to appease some religious factions in our families and alienate others -and I wasn't too worried about someone putting a little grease on my kid's head. I simply saw it as a useless ritual for the benefit of a nonexistent deity. And if God did exist He'd probably ask why people do baptisms as well.
Before the ceremony I asked the pastor what the baptism is supposed to do. I expected an answer along the lines of wiping away sins and whatnot, but instead he said that it was so "God can recognize her." I was tempted to press further and ask why God couldn't recognize her already, but I knew he would just get defensive and launch accusations, change the subject, contradict himself a few times, etc and I didn't feel like going there. Experience has taught me that the last thing that I should expect from any priest or pastor is a straight answer.
Why do you baptize children at such a young age? Why don't you allow them to make the decision in life if they want to at a later age when the child has a more firm grasp on what he is actually getting a part of.
I have always seen infant baptism as much more for the parents and the congregation than for the baby. It is usually done around the first time the baby is ready for being in church and is essentially the group publicly agreeing to help nurture and look after this new person. Much later on confirmation or something similar happens and the person then makes a conscious choice to actually join the church (parental influence can also play a huge role here too though).
As far as parents teaching values and lifestyles to their kids, there's no way to stop that, parents are going to try to mold their kids into what they think is right and good. If the parents really believe that religious indoctrination/baptism/confirmation is in their child's best interest, asking why can only really get the answer "because i believe it's the best thing for my child".
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Nobody is forcing anyone. As far as I know you only officially become a member of a church after going to confirmation class and have communion for the first time. All of which happens when you become a adult.
I was baptized in the Catholic Church before I could communicate. The Catholic Church still considers me a member of it, even though my parents saw fit not to force me to go through Confirmation until I was old enough to fully understand it. I'm in their baptismal records and there is nothing I can do to remove myself from them (they even removed format acts of defection a few years ago).
I do not want to be associated with such an evil organization, nor do I want my name used to pad their "billion and a half" adherents number. My parents took that choice away from me, and I am not happy about it.
I'm an atheist and my gf and I baptised our child. It was my gf's idea - she wanted to appease some religious factions in our families and alienate others -and I wasn't too worried about someone putting a little grease on my kid's head. I simply saw it as a useless ritual for the benefit of a nonexistent deity. And if God did exist He'd probably ask why people do baptisms as well.
I agree. For someone who is not Christian, baptism has no more meaning than taking a bath. I have a much bigger problem with all the brainwashing and guilt that goes into being raised Christian (especially Catholic).
Actually, you are. Try raising your child to handle snakes and see how the government takes it.
I'm sorry but it is rather presumption to be telling people how to raise their children. Raising them religiously does not make you a child abuser.
Satanists that want to sacrifice human children or sex cults and the like, are all problems with religion. I could go into some graphic ones, especially for specific tribes but that's beyond the scope of this thread and you're probably aware of some of them.
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Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
Baptism, is meaningless to a baby and is a generally harmless ritual. As long as indoctrination doesn't follow then there's no real problem. However the Baptism does give a solid indication that there will be indoctrination.
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"I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, 'Wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them?' So now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe." - Marcus Cole, Babylon 5
I have a likewise big problem with parents who teach that when you die, the worms eat you. I believe it very harmful to the child and creates a me-first personality and sense of entitlement with a strong disregard for others. Get what you can right now without regard to harm to others is what I see as the endgame for atheism.
Hang on now, nothing about atheism promotes selfishness and disregard for others. Sure, they believe there are no eternal consequences for misdeeds, but atheists are just as capable of selflessness as Christians. In fact, they may be more so inclined. For an atheist, your actions are all that matters; they are all that is, all that remains. An atheist who wants "eternal consequences" such as being remembered well will act accordingly.
A Christian who wants his eternal reward will do whatever he wants and it's ok. We're all sinners, right? All he has to do is say "I'm sorry, I still love you Jesus" and nothing bad happens to him.
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"[Screw] you and the green you ramped in on." - My EDH battle cry. If I had one. Which I don't.
I have a likewise big problem with parents who teach that when you die, the worms eat you.
That's true regardless of who officiates your burial though. Or do you think the faithful decompose differently?
Anyway, when someone in a secular household asks where grandma is the traditional response is something about keeping her alive in your heart.
I believe it very harmful to the child and creates a me-first personality and sense of entitlement with a strong disregard for others. Get what you can right now without regard to harm to others is what I see as the endgame for atheism.
Baptism, circumcision, etc. at an early age are all wrong. There is nothing "holy" about forcing beliefs on someone long before they can make a choice in the matter.
There is a reason this is done, and that is because if you wait til someone is, let's say 16, then lay out all this info in front of them, I bet far more would just say "no thanks" to religion.
Baptism, circumcision, etc. at an early age are all wrong. There is nothing "holy" about forcing beliefs on someone long before they can make a choice in the matter.
There is a reason this is done, and that is because if you wait til someone is, let's say 16, then lay out all this info in front of them, I bet far more would just say "no thanks" to religion.
No... the reason it is done is because those who believe in a particular religion believe those teaching to be true.
This isnt a question of which color is better green or blue? Pancakes or Waffles?
To those parents this is no different than teaching a kid to look both ways before crossing the street or teaching them about sharing.
This debate about baptism is not at all equal to circumcision. While a kid may be more likely to continue in his/her faith growing up in it they can always change... Once they are out of the house there is typically nobody forcing them to continue with the beliefs they were raised with. I see this as being no different than a child growing up in a politically active home. If someone's parents are very vocal about their political affiliations then chances are they will grow up with similar views... that doesnt mean children need to be shielded from all political talk until they reach a certain age...
Baptism, circumcision, etc. at an early age are all wrong. There is nothing "holy" about forcing beliefs on someone long before they can make a choice in the matter.
There is a reason this is done, and that is because if you wait til someone is, let's say 16, then lay out all this info in front of them, I bet far more would just say "no thanks" to religion.
You may not thinks so but people do actually have brains and can come to conclusion about matters that are contrary to their parents view(s). Though it is fair that parents do have a influence on their children lives it is ridiculous to think that sending them to a place where they can learn more about religion makes them unable to come to a informed decisions
Though it is fair that parents do have a influence on their children lives it is ridiculous to think that sending them to a place where they can learn more about religion makes them unable to come to a informed decisions
Not if they are being given bad information. I've never seen a religious service that didn't give bad information, and it's hard to make an informed decision under those circumstances.
Not if they are being given bad information. I've never seen a religious service that didn't give bad information, and it's hard to make an informed decision under those circumstances.
What do you mean by bad information? Can you provide an example?
As someone that grew up Methodist, turned Atheist in High School, then took a philosophy of religion class in college I now consider myself to be Agnostic... I cannot think of anything that a religious institution tried to teach me that they did not believe to be true.
I mean, a baby, through no understanding or choice of it's own gets forcibly put in to a religious circle and can possible remain there for the rest of his or her life, simply due to upbringing.
You can probably read my bias already and see where I personally am leaning from, but I wanted to hear other opinions. Do you think it's wrong that children can join religious groups without proper understanding of what they are joining? Thoughts?
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Absolutely. I was baptized at a very young age (so young that I cannot remember the event). The event itself means absolutely nothing to me; I really don't understand how it could have any eternal significance with any deity. It was little more than my parents promising to raise me in a Christian household and teach me their values (you can read that as "indoctrinate me").
Later in life I chose to be baptized of my own free will. This event does hold significance for me, and I understood what it meant when I chose to do it. Assuming my faith is correctly placed, I understand why this event could hold eternal significance.
Pristaxcontrombmodruu!
On the other hand, this phenomenon is common among all things in life; societal values, schooling, dogmas of all varieties, and the opinions and teachings of our parents, authority figures, and peers will inevitably alter how we perceive life. There's little escaping from that; we can't outlaw young child from being baptized no more than we can ban parents from teaching their kids religion in the first place.
But that isn't to say that we're completely enslaved to the constructs of our environment. For those that are strong willed enough, they can decide what they want to believe in. A child who is baptized can always change their religion when they become older and have their own autonomy in life. Now of course there are those who will end up believing in whatever dogma they were taught, but people who think in such a manner will always be like that; even if you allowed that person to never be indoctrinate into any given faith, chances are they'll probably latch on to any faith at a later point in their lives.
It's impossible for a religious person to have a big problem with indoctination. They, for the most part, believe that instructing their children in which ever particular religion it is they follow is in the best interest of the child.
Personaly, I have a big beef with it, but what are you going to do? You can't stop people from teaching their children nonsense whether it's about Jesus or Big Foot.
― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great
I wouldn't go that far. I might not be a regular church attendee, but I know what I believe in and do so strongly. Regardless, I am just as strongly against indoctrination. Belief needs to be questioned to mean anything.
I will present those beliefs to my child when he's able to understand, and more importantly, to question them. My son will be raised to question everything.*
*Including that.
Pristaxcontrombmodruu!
Luckily for us religious folks we are under no obligation to defend how we raise our children to you. Off course we all know that when atheist try to teach to teach their children atheistic values and norms they are not indoctrinating their children.
Sure, you're not under any "obligation" to defend how you raise you're children the way you do, but the real question is, why do you do it? Why do you baptize children at such a young age? Why don't you allow them to make the decision in life if they want to at a later age when the child has a more firm grasp on what he is actually getting a part of. I think an adult making the decision to join a religious group is much more powerful and potent then a baby joining a religious group. Now, I'm not saying baptism at a young age is evil or anything like that. I was forcibly placed as a member of the Roman Catholic Church since I was a baby, and I now am an Anti-Theist. I don't despise my parents for making me join the church, I just would have rather had the choice later on in life, after answering some questions I have set out for myself about life and the universe. Don't force babies do join your church or convince them on the values of the church at a young age. I don't believe that's right.
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And teaching children the values and morals of a given society at a very young age isn't indoctrination by the apparent way you folks are using the term here?
What if the kid who grew up in the U.S. and its culture and belief system wants to live in, say, a Korean culture and belief system (markedly different in many, many ways, though western thought is penetrating ever deeper and deeper) when he's an adult? And he hates the U.S. culture that he grew up in for whatever reason?
Is it different because it's not like the parent can move to Korea or do something to allow the kid to choose what culture and value-system he believes in? Bull****. Christians consider their religion a big part of their identity. There really is no difference between religion and your given culture-system, and this is part of the reason why religion often becomes a large part of the given culture itself.
Why do I try to teach my children the religion which I believes saves you from eternal damnation and gives you a blissful afterlife in paradise? I do not mean to be snide by answering your question with another question I just trying to explain as best as I can.
Because their is the issue of what happens to people who have not heard and for some people it is better to baptise as infants than risking your children dying before they have the chance to accept Jesus as saviour. Which would be bad for Christian parents.
Some churches do prefer adult baptism.
Nobody is forcing anyone. As far as I know you only officially become a member of a church after going to confirmation class and have communion for the first time. All of which happens when you become a adult.
Actually, you are. Try raising your child to handle snakes and see how the government takes it.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Before the ceremony I asked the pastor what the baptism is supposed to do. I expected an answer along the lines of wiping away sins and whatnot, but instead he said that it was so "God can recognize her." I was tempted to press further and ask why God couldn't recognize her already, but I knew he would just get defensive and launch accusations, change the subject, contradict himself a few times, etc and I didn't feel like going there. Experience has taught me that the last thing that I should expect from any priest or pastor is a straight answer.
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I have always seen infant baptism as much more for the parents and the congregation than for the baby. It is usually done around the first time the baby is ready for being in church and is essentially the group publicly agreeing to help nurture and look after this new person. Much later on confirmation or something similar happens and the person then makes a conscious choice to actually join the church (parental influence can also play a huge role here too though).
As far as parents teaching values and lifestyles to their kids, there's no way to stop that, parents are going to try to mold their kids into what they think is right and good. If the parents really believe that religious indoctrination/baptism/confirmation is in their child's best interest, asking why can only really get the answer "because i believe it's the best thing for my child".
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I'm sorry but it is rather presumption to be telling people how to raise their children. Raising them religiously does not make you a child abuser.
I do not want to be associated with such an evil organization, nor do I want my name used to pad their "billion and a half" adherents number. My parents took that choice away from me, and I am not happy about it. Depends on what "religiously" entails, really. You are stewards of your children, not owners.
I agree. For someone who is not Christian, baptism has no more meaning than taking a bath. I have a much bigger problem with all the brainwashing and guilt that goes into being raised Christian (especially Catholic).
Satanists that want to sacrifice human children or sex cults and the like, are all problems with religion. I could go into some graphic ones, especially for specific tribes but that's beyond the scope of this thread and you're probably aware of some of them.
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
Hang on now, nothing about atheism promotes selfishness and disregard for others. Sure, they believe there are no eternal consequences for misdeeds, but atheists are just as capable of selflessness as Christians. In fact, they may be more so inclined. For an atheist, your actions are all that matters; they are all that is, all that remains. An atheist who wants "eternal consequences" such as being remembered well will act accordingly.
A Christian who wants his eternal reward will do whatever he wants and it's ok. We're all sinners, right? All he has to do is say "I'm sorry, I still love you Jesus" and nothing bad happens to him.
Pristaxcontrombmodruu!
Anyway, when someone in a secular household asks where grandma is the traditional response is something about keeping her alive in your heart.
What do you expect?
Fear of eternal torment builds character.
There is a reason this is done, and that is because if you wait til someone is, let's say 16, then lay out all this info in front of them, I bet far more would just say "no thanks" to religion.
No... the reason it is done is because those who believe in a particular religion believe those teaching to be true.
This isnt a question of which color is better green or blue? Pancakes or Waffles?
To those parents this is no different than teaching a kid to look both ways before crossing the street or teaching them about sharing.
This debate about baptism is not at all equal to circumcision. While a kid may be more likely to continue in his/her faith growing up in it they can always change... Once they are out of the house there is typically nobody forcing them to continue with the beliefs they were raised with. I see this as being no different than a child growing up in a politically active home. If someone's parents are very vocal about their political affiliations then chances are they will grow up with similar views... that doesnt mean children need to be shielded from all political talk until they reach a certain age...
You may not thinks so but people do actually have brains and can come to conclusion about matters that are contrary to their parents view(s). Though it is fair that parents do have a influence on their children lives it is ridiculous to think that sending them to a place where they can learn more about religion makes them unable to come to a informed decisions
What do you mean by bad information? Can you provide an example?
As someone that grew up Methodist, turned Atheist in High School, then took a philosophy of religion class in college I now consider myself to be Agnostic... I cannot think of anything that a religious institution tried to teach me that they did not believe to be true.