Often people share anecdotes about times when they prayed and received what they prayed for. They use this as evidence for God's existence.
However, they never report the times they prayed and nothing happened. This is confirmation bias.
I don't know the name of it, but it is a fallacy to say that because event A (prayer) occurred before event B, event A caused event B. It may or may not have.
I find this often used as a win-win situation. If a prayer works, it reaffirms a belief in God. If a prayer doesn't work, well then it was God's will and "part of his plan."
However, if God has a set will and plan that he follows, then why would your prayer have any influence?
Unless God's plan is based on if you pray for a specific event to occur. But then it's your will as well as his will.
But would God really decide to let your Grandma either die from or survive cancer based on if you prayed for her?
Often people share anecdotes about times when they prayed and received what they prayed for. They use this as evidence for God's existence.
I often see people pray so they can do nothing and still feel like they're helping.
I don't know the name of it, but it is a fallacy to say that because event A (prayer) occurred before event B, event A caused event B. It may or may not have.
Post hoc ergo propter hoc, Latin for "after this, therefore because of this."
I find this often used as a win-win situation. If a prayer works, it reaffirms a belief in God. If a prayer doesn't work, well then it was God's will and "part of his plan."
But would God really decide to let your Grandma either die from or survive cancer based on if you prayed for her?
Whenever prayer 'works' for someone, that's a good time to ask them why God chose not to do anything for the 10,000+ children that died of starvation that day, but He felt that intervening on his/her behalf was worth His time - why?
When I pray, God gives me one of three answers. "Yes", "No" or "Wait". They haven't been wrong yet. Usually waiting end up in a Yes, but not the Yes I expected. But sometimes it's a No in a way I wasn't expecting.
However, if God has a set will and plan that he follows, then why would your prayer have any influence?
There are always main and secondary plan. I think God has this to all of us. The main plan is the plan we can't interfere. The secondary plan is something that is changeable.
But would God really decide to let your Grandma either die from or survive cancer based on if you prayed for her?
Maybe yes, maybe no.
Above all, we are just human beings, so it's impossible to understand 100% of what God's thinking. If we can understand God 100%, so either there is no God, or all humans are God.
God must be believed, not understood. Whoever tries to fully understand God will be disappointed.
You played JESUS?!?! I heard none of his guys stay in the graveyard, and once you think you have him beat he ALWAYS comes back to win within three turns. I like...WORSHIP him.
You seems to think that God has a limited amount of time and energy. For a Christian this is not the belief or view of what our God is capable of doing.
Actually, according to the bible..it is.
Genesis 2: Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
For starvation; we have ourselves to blame. The world produces plenty of food to end starvation globally. But we chose to not share it with one-another. Why blame God for the results of our inaction?
Does a God that watches a young child being trafficed, abused, and eventually murdered have nothing to answer for?
Since I've been proposing it I have never seen a religious person give a satisfactory answer to this question. If the deity you believe in is supposed to be able to affect our reality and he is supposed to be even just an OK guy/gal/thing, then I assume it would not be able to just watch as horrible fates fall on children all across the globe. What a horrible deity it would be to just watch actionlessly.
God must be believed, not understood. Whoever tries to fully understand God will be disappointed.
Along the same lines, atheists find it dissappointing that people are willing to believe that which they don't understand. What you are describing here is the recipe for a nation of lemmings that question nothing.
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Our belief is not a belief. Our principles are not a faith. We do not rely solely upon science and reason, because these are necessary rather than sufficient factors, but we distrust anything that contradicts science or outrages reason. We may differ on many things, but what we respect is free inquiry, openmindedness, and the pursuit of ideas for their own sake.
― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great
There are always main and secondary plan. I think God has this to all of us. The main plan is the plan we can't interfere. The secondary plan is something that is changeable.
What is your scriptural basis for this? God's plan being changeable would imply that it was not optimal to begin with. And I don't think many Christians would argue that God is wrong at times.
Remember : we pray to God NOT to proof whether God's exists or not. We pray to God BECAUSE we BELIEVED that God exists.
Sure, believing in God is generally a starting point before you begin your prayer. But in general, in life, the results of our actions constantly reaffirm the premises on which we based those actions. In this case, given what pstmdrn said above, you have this necessarily self-affirming system. No matter what happens, you get to claim that your premise was correct. I find this unsettling. It's akin to saying, "I'm right because I'm right." I'm trying to think of another situation where this is the case, but can't (maybe someone else can, idk).
Prayer is a crutch. Even if you presume that God exists in exactly the way Christians think he does, the concept of prayer still makes zero sense. That Oklahoma teacher that is trying to get her name in the news by talking about how much she 'prayed out loud' when the tornado was coming is a great example. If God were going to listen to some prayer in this regard, it's safe to assume that he would have listened to the first 7 year old that prayed for the tornado to vanish into thin air. He didn't. Because that is not how life works.
Prayer is a crutch that people use to gain the personal strength to do the things that need to be done. Nothing more, and nothing less. I only find it unfortunate that they can't realize that they don't need a crutch in the first place. People are inherently strong and have a deep pool of fortitude. They just don't always realize it.
I figure this is as good a place to ask as any: is the Christian God omniscient and omnipotent? Related to this, is he omnibenevolent, or is that Jesus's deal more than God's?
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“Tell me who you walk with, and I'll tell you who you are.” Esmeralda Santiago Art is life itself.
is he omnibenevolent, or is that Jesus's deal more than God's?
Iirc, God is never stated as being peaceful or benevolent as people claim (both Christians and non-Christians) he is. Rather, the Jews considered him "good", in that he is fair and just to his followers. But if you're not one of his followers... You're probably ****ed if the Jews have business with you. I actually do not know where this image of God as an all-encompassing benevolent figure came from, because Jesus never says that as well. This is important - Jesus is not the about being benevolent and "let's love everyone!" type of deal.
The OT God is effectively the Jewish version of the gods of the ancient world. He exists for his people and his people only. The thing that supposedly separates the OT God from other gods is that the other gods were supposed to only operate within their given region (which is determined by the geographical extent of the culture that believes in said god), while the Jews believed that the OT God is superior to all other gods and exists EVERYWHERE. I'm sure other cultures had this belief, but they didn't quite push it as much as the Jews did.
Keep in mind that virtually all of the cultures and nation-states of Asia Minor and the Middle East believed that gods existed and exerted their influence in some form. That's why the OT is filled with the OT God "duking" it out with other gods through their respective prophets and priests. IIRC, this is also where the premise of "My god is stronger than your god, and so you should believe in my god!" comes from.
This is why the OT God feels so different from the NT God. The NT God is much more nebulous and otherworldly than the OT God because the Jews believed the OT God was literally on Earth with them (the Temple of Solomon was his house, remember?), whereas Jesus was meant to be either God incarnate or his representative. Either way, when Jesus dies and returns to heaven, God is effectively no longer on Earth as far as Christians are concerned.
Does a God that watches a young child being trafficed, abused, and eventually murdered have nothing to answer for?
Why stop there? Shouldn't God protect all innocent lives? Shouldn’t it be impossible to have an abortion? Regardless of how hard try, the dang fetus just won't die.
If it were the will of God to make women slaves to their reproductive system, then yes, certainly it should intervene. Why wouldn't it? But let’s be honest here, you aren't trying to answer the question, or even engage in a debate. You're trying to shift the focus away from a discussion that would have you give a REAL answer.
Honestly though, why shouldn't God protect all the innocent lives?
While God is directly interceding to punish sin, you realize that he is going to punish every sin that same way? You rape a child, you die. You lie, you die. You curse a person, you die. You turn to any sin at anytime, you die.
What are you talking about? None of this has a basis in reality. If you rape a child you don't die. I mean, you die someday, but I don't see the connection to what you're saying. And if I lie I die? What are you talking about? You post some crazy stuff, but this really really out there.
And you forget, sir, that all sins, according to Christians, can be forgiven by asking Jesus for forgiveness. So really how it goes is: Rape a child, tell Jesus (not the child) that you're sorry, and you go to heaven.
But I would greatly like to hear more about how people "die" when they rape or lie.
While you're understanding of the awful consequences of sin is limited to the innocent, the truth is that all sin brings about these conditions to begin with.
And...this answers my question how? I'm doubting that a child forced to work in the sex trade is guilty of sin. And that's who I'm talking about. All the talk about sin yielding sin is fine and all, but it doesn't help the child praying that the suffering will end, does it?
Sure, God do it. Come Lord and judge man. All of us great and small. End all wickedness and all those who love any of it. Lift your hand of protection from mankind so they might repent. Then Lord, come. Bring your sword. Claim your bride.
So...um...are you preaching or something? Please explain how this is relevant to this thread at all.
God is not a half-way God in killing people. He kills them all and already sorts them out prior to doing it. That's the God shown by the OT and the books of ACTS and REVELATIONS.
Fantastic! What.is.your.point.
If intervention was as you seek, then no Faith would ever be needed. He might as well make us in Heaven like he did the angels. Oh, wait, he did that already when he made the Angels.
It's too bad the angels sat right alongside God doing nothing while watching in real-time the horrors bestowed on the weakest among us. I would rather have ACTION to stop these deeds than faith that someday, maybe, the evil-doers might, eventually, be punished, but only is a place that we don't know exists...
If you’re God exists, it can see this happening. Its inaction, no matter what bibble verse you come up with, sheds the brightest light. You God, if this were true I’m afraid would have to be labeled with some horrible and offensive adjective. No moral being can watch a child be raped, and while having the power to stop it, do nothing.
Since I've been proposing it I have never seen a religious person give a satisfactory answer to this question. If the deity you believe in is supposed to be able to affect our reality and he is supposed to be even just an OK guy/gal/thing, then I assume it would not be able to just watch as horrible fates fall on children all across the globe. What a horrible deity it would be to just watch actionlessly.
The punishments of God are terrible and harsh. He is a wrathful God for those who reject him and love sin. Hell's punishments vary by the person and their sin(s). As the scriptures say, it'd be better to tie a millstone around you neck and cast yourself into the sea than to harm them. Mark 10:14 shows children as Jesus’ children and in the kingdom of God.
Again, you're rambling and sounding insane. How does this bible verse either A. help the suffering get release or B. answer the question of "why does God, who claims he loves us so, watch as we are tortured by those in power?" It doesn't. It's just madness being spewed from the pit of misguided intentions.
I believe because God is quite real to me. He talks to me, he interacts with me, he prepares things for me, he sends me, he calls me back. At will can I speak with him.
I've said this before to you and mean it. You need psychiatric help. There are whole wards devoted to people that think God is talking to them. Better to seem treatment now before you become dangerous to yourself or someone else.
If you chose not to believe, enjoy the finest things that life can give you in the time you have remaining.
As has been said over and over and over...an atheist does not CHOOSE to not believe. We don't believe because the story is unbelievable.
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Our belief is not a belief. Our principles are not a faith. We do not rely solely upon science and reason, because these are necessary rather than sufficient factors, but we distrust anything that contradicts science or outrages reason. We may differ on many things, but what we respect is free inquiry, openmindedness, and the pursuit of ideas for their own sake.
― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great
If Jesus were really speaking to people, my point is that we would expect him to speak to everyone, not only speak to those who are culturally inclined to think Jesus was speaking to them. On the other hand, if Jesus weren't really speaking to people, we'd expect that those are culturally inclined to believe it would report that he was, but everyone else wouldn't.
Seriously, if Jesus is out talking to people, why isn't he talking to people in areas where they don't believe in that? I bet Christians in many parts of Europe would be much less likely to think Jesus is talking to them, because they don't belong to sects that buy into that.
The Catechism of the Episcopal Church defines prayer as "responding to God, by thought and deeds, with or without words."
It describes seven different types of prayer:
Adoration, defined as "the lifting up of the heart and mind to God, asking nothing but to enjoy God's presence."
Praise, defined as the act of praising God "not to obtain anything, but because God's Being draws praise from us."
Thanksgiving, "offered to God for all of the blessings of this life, for our redemption, and for whatever draws us closer to God."
Penitence, defined as confessing of sins and making "restitution where possible, with the intention to amend our lives."
Oblation, "an offering of ourselves, our lives and labors, in union with Christ, for the purposes of God"
And Intercession and Petition, in which intercession is defined as bringing "before God the needs of others," and petition defined as presenting "our own needs, that God's will may be done."
I really like this viewpoint on prayer. I've considered life as a dialogue between us and God, and in this case, prayer is an extension of that.
It also, correctly, points out that prayer need not be for asking anything. Furthermore, in this definition of petition, it recognizes that God's will does not necessarily accord up with our own and we may not get what we want.
To me that's not the point. The point is the relationship with God.
Often people share anecdotes about times when they prayed and received what they prayed for. They use this as evidence for God's existence.
However, they never report the times they prayed and nothing happened. This is confirmation bias.
But that's like saying that people say there are albino blackbirds by pointing out the white ones, using this as evidence for the existence of albino blackbirds, while never reporting how many are born not albino.
I bet he doesn't do any speaking to uncontacted Amazonian tribes either.
Fantastic point, too bad it goes way ColonelCoo's head.
I'd say stop feeding the troll but it just gets crazier and more entertaining as time goes on.
Anyway, prayer has been demonstrated to aid believers in healing. However, in those same studies we can see that prayer is about on par with a sugar pill. But that's to be expected when people make things up. That's why there is no unified church, individuals cherry-picking beliefs, God being wrathful and loving, and so fourth.
Of course prayer becomes whatever that individual decides to think. After all, imaginary friends are a reflection of self.
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"I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, 'Wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them?' So now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe." - Marcus Cole, Babylon 5
If Jesus were really speaking to people, my point is that we would expect him to speak to everyone, not only speak to those who are culturally inclined to think Jesus was speaking to them. On the other hand, if Jesus weren't really speaking to people, we'd expect that those are culturally inclined to believe it would report that he was, but everyone else wouldn't.
It would be argued that Jesus talks only to those who believe in him. I know plenty of Korean church goers who say Jesus listens to them and that he tells them stuff in their prayers. Last I checked, Koreans are Asians. They're not saying that they're having full-blown conversations mind you. Rather, it is more that they ask a question or pose a dilemma and they feel something that just tells them to choose this or that path. Think of it like an intuition or gut-feeling, just magnified many times over. They interpret it as Jesus telling them things.
And insult is saying stuff similar to what pb4786 said. Seriously, imaginary friends? Really?
If Jesus talked to those who believe in him, we shouldn't expect to see a difference between the various sects, but I guarantee you that more Pentecostals think Jesus is speaking to them than do Episcopalians.
If Jesus talked to those who believe in him, we shouldn't expect to see a difference between the various sects, but I guarantee you that more Pentecostals think Jesus is speaking to them than do Episcopalians.
That requires the assumption that Jesus wants everyone to believe in the same thing =P
Also assumes that Jesus speaks the same way to everyone.
And that everyone listens the same way, sees the same way, thinks the same way, understands the same way, interprets the same way, feels the same way...
It would be argued that Jesus talks only to those who believe in him. I know plenty of Korean church goers who say Jesus listens to them and that he tells them stuff in their prayers. Last I checked, Koreans are Asians. They're not saying that they're having full-blown conversations mind you. Rather, it is more that they ask a question or pose a dilemma and they feel something that just tells them to choose this or that path. Think of it like an intuition or gut-feeling, just magnified many times over. They interpret it as Jesus telling them things.
And insult is saying stuff similar to what pb4786 said. Seriously, imaginary friends? Really?
Another person that missed the point. It is strange that God decided that only the Jews would get His revelation, a visit by Him in the form of the messiah. Now if God decided to forgive all of mankind's sin, why did he only pick one tiny band of "chosen" people? If the only path to heaven is through accepting Jesus as your savior, why didn't Jesus tour the earth?
Let me guess, God has a plan. At least Joseph Smith made up a story which covers this by saying Jesus visited somewhere else in the world.
And yeah, I think religious belief is a delusion and I think prayer is communicating with a socially acceptable imaginary friend. If you feel that's an insult, that's not my problem. The Bible and most every follower of Jesus have told me I'm going to hell. When I was younger I felt insulted by such claims. But then something happened, I grew up and my beliefs came into focus.
Something is only insulting if you give it that power. Respect doesn't require editing oneself in order to play nice, it simply requires honest, thoughtful communication.
That requires the assumption that Jesus wants everyone to believe in the same thing =P
No need to assume:
John 14:6: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Clearly, the salvation of any human requires the belief in Jesus as savior. You're both skirting the question here, why does God only seem to care about the tribe which already believed in Him? Why did Jesus show up when and where he did? Why does an omnipotent God act in incredibly small, pitiful ways?
Taking out the bs argument that man has free will blah blah blah, we can still say that God is inept at spreading His message. Nearly 6,000 years of recorded history and the majority of people in this world don't believe in Him. Either God likes to condemn people for ignorance and using critical thinking or God doesn't care or doesn't exist. And this is just one example. The sheer abundance of religions and interpretations is clear evidence of gods being imaginary friends.
"I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, 'Wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them?' So now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe." - Marcus Cole, Babylon 5
Another person that missed the point. It is strange that God decided that only the Jews would get His revelation, a visit by Him in the form of the messiah. Now if God decided to forgive all of mankind's sin, why did he only pick one tiny band of "chosen" people? If the only path to heaven is through accepting Jesus as your savior, why didn't Jesus tour the earth?
It certainly is strange. But a couple of things-
First, I believe it is established that when Jesus died at the cross, he removed the original sin from everyone. So even the natives living on Australia had the taint of original sin removed from them at that point.
Ergo, the basic point of Christianity is to make sure that people know and remain close to God up until their death, so that they don't go on the wrong path.
Second, I've mentioned in another thread that there are verses in the NT that state that you can be saved even if you've never heard of Christ. It merely requires you to be a good person and live a life that doesn't have any of the Christian definition of sins, or if you do sin then you repent on your own truthfully. Now, this does go out of the window when you do hear of Christ, but that's another topic..
And yeah, I think religious belief is a delusion and I think prayer is communicating with a socially acceptable imaginary friend. If you feel that's an insult, that's not my problem. The Bible and most every follower of Jesus have told me I'm going to hell. When I was younger I felt insulted by such claims. But then something happened, I grew up and my beliefs came into focus.
I am insulted only because you insult my parents with that claim. And because you show a lack of respect for other people in general.
It doesn't matter that Christians said that you'll go to hell if you don't believe. I've heard the same damned thing in Korea. Hell, I've had a whack-job scream that in my face. I ignored it.
But letting the actions of a few color your belief of the many isn't good. At least most Christians I've met are polite enough to keep their belief that you'll go to hell in their minds instead of saying it. It appears that most Christians you've met are not. Which is the more accurate interpretation? I don't know.
Something is only insulting if you give it that power. Respect doesn't require editing oneself in order to play nice, it simply requires honest, thoughtful communication.
Then allow me to respectfully tell you that I believe your comments are insulting and show a lack of, or perhaps no desire of, understanding. Honest, thoughtful communication right?
John 14:6: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Actually, that doesn't answer anything. The verse you quoted says that Jesus is the path to redemption and salvation. That doesn't tell us anything about Jesus's motives and what he wants people to believe. He could very well say "believe in X" to some group, then say "believe in Y" to another group. Both groups are compelled to believe in X or Y because Jesus said so.
Clearly, the salvation of any human requires the belief in Jesus as savior. You're both skirting the question here, why does God only seem to care about the tribe which already believed in Him? Why did Jesus show up when and where he did? Why does an omnipotent God act in incredibly small, pitiful ways?
Because the OT God is the Jewish god of the ancient times. I've already briefly explained what this means earlier.
As for your questions. I cannot answer them, and I doubt anyone could give you a straight answer, seeing as how you don't like the free will answer.
Why do you not like the free will answer though? That is a real central part of Christian ideology that I think isn't emphasized enough.
Also assumes that Jesus speaks the same way to everyone.
And that everyone listens the same way, sees the same way, thinks the same way, understands the same way, interprets the same way, feels the same way...
So if Jesus speaks to someone, and they don't do any of those things the "right" way to understand, he just throws up his hands and moves on?
God is long sufferring with us .
If you don't see how your response to a survey of if pe opp le believe that Jesus speaks to them is to not challenge the validity of the survey or resulta but to say that those who don't know of God don't hear from Jesus or thoughs who have a weak Christian backgrojnd don't here from Jesus. Oldaoughd thought I am an exception whre in truth I am the norm. Your intolerence of this fact makes you lash out with how your view is correct because '
Well based on the grammar / spelling /incoherence of the post, my first instinct was to feel you are not being sincere.
I think you are trying to say that people who believe they have heard from jesus himself are evidence towards dismissing the studies brought up earlier.
Also assumes that Jesus speaks the same way to everyone.
And that everyone listens the same way, sees the same way, thinks the same way, understands the same way, interprets the same way, feels the same way...
So why then do people not frequently change beliefs as they age? And why are these sects curiously mono-cultural? Why haven't any moderately large groups of people from outside the pentecostal circle been spoken to as had been spoken to by the pentecostals? And why would jesus selectively choose different groups of people to teach differently? Especially when differences in beliefs can cause you to go to hell, jesus seems rather indifferent to the whole affair.
And why is jesus so unjust as to give some people the benefit of growing up in the correct belief system where others are forced to believe after some mysterious chit-chat with jesus? Seems really unfair to me that jesus would damn virtually everybody who was not born in the correct region of the world.
God is long sufferring with us .
If you don't see how your response to a survey of if pe opp le believe that Jesus speaks to them is to not challenge the validity of the survey or resulta but to say that those who don't know of God don't hear from Jesus or thoughs who have a weak Christian backgrojnd don't here from Jesus. Oldaoughd thought I am an exception whre in truth I am the norm. Your intolerence of this fact makes you lash out with how your view is correct because '
I read that a few times, and I still can't make a bit of sense out of it, so I'm afraid I can't offer much of a reply. :\
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However, they never report the times they prayed and nothing happened. This is confirmation bias.
I don't know the name of it, but it is a fallacy to say that because event A (prayer) occurred before event B, event A caused event B. It may or may not have.
I find this often used as a win-win situation. If a prayer works, it reaffirms a belief in God. If a prayer doesn't work, well then it was God's will and "part of his plan."
However, if God has a set will and plan that he follows, then why would your prayer have any influence?
Unless God's plan is based on if you pray for a specific event to occur. But then it's your will as well as his will.
But would God really decide to let your Grandma either die from or survive cancer based on if you prayed for her?
Post hoc ergo propter hoc, Latin for "after this, therefore because of this."
Whenever prayer 'works' for someone, that's a good time to ask them why God chose not to do anything for the 10,000+ children that died of starvation that day, but He felt that intervening on his/her behalf was worth His time - why?
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[Clan Flamingo]
Fact or Fiction :
See my point?
Remember : we pray to God NOT to proof whether God's exists or not. We pray to God BECAUSE we BELIEVED that God exists.
There are always main and secondary plan. I think God has this to all of us. The main plan is the plan we can't interfere. The secondary plan is something that is changeable.
Maybe yes, maybe no.
Above all, we are just human beings, so it's impossible to understand 100% of what God's thinking. If we can understand God 100%, so either there is no God, or all humans are God.
God must be believed, not understood. Whoever tries to fully understand God will be disappointed.
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My G Yisan, the Bard of Death G deck.
My BUGWR Hermit druid BUGWR deck.
Does a God that watches a young child being trafficed, abused, and eventually murdered have nothing to answer for?
Since I've been proposing it I have never seen a religious person give a satisfactory answer to this question. If the deity you believe in is supposed to be able to affect our reality and he is supposed to be even just an OK guy/gal/thing, then I assume it would not be able to just watch as horrible fates fall on children all across the globe. What a horrible deity it would be to just watch actionlessly.
Along the same lines, atheists find it dissappointing that people are willing to believe that which they don't understand. What you are describing here is the recipe for a nation of lemmings that question nothing.
― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great
I've always found this response silly. Of course the answer is yes, no, or wait. That's basically a tautology.
What is your scriptural basis for this? God's plan being changeable would imply that it was not optimal to begin with. And I don't think many Christians would argue that God is wrong at times.
Sure, believing in God is generally a starting point before you begin your prayer. But in general, in life, the results of our actions constantly reaffirm the premises on which we based those actions. In this case, given what pstmdrn said above, you have this necessarily self-affirming system. No matter what happens, you get to claim that your premise was correct. I find this unsettling. It's akin to saying, "I'm right because I'm right." I'm trying to think of another situation where this is the case, but can't (maybe someone else can, idk).
[Clan Flamingo]
Prayer is a crutch that people use to gain the personal strength to do the things that need to be done. Nothing more, and nothing less. I only find it unfortunate that they can't realize that they don't need a crutch in the first place. People are inherently strong and have a deep pool of fortitude. They just don't always realize it.
Art is life itself.
Iirc, God is never stated as being peaceful or benevolent as people claim (both Christians and non-Christians) he is. Rather, the Jews considered him "good", in that he is fair and just to his followers. But if you're not one of his followers... You're probably ****ed if the Jews have business with you. I actually do not know where this image of God as an all-encompassing benevolent figure came from, because Jesus never says that as well. This is important - Jesus is not the about being benevolent and "let's love everyone!" type of deal.
The OT God is effectively the Jewish version of the gods of the ancient world. He exists for his people and his people only. The thing that supposedly separates the OT God from other gods is that the other gods were supposed to only operate within their given region (which is determined by the geographical extent of the culture that believes in said god), while the Jews believed that the OT God is superior to all other gods and exists EVERYWHERE. I'm sure other cultures had this belief, but they didn't quite push it as much as the Jews did.
Keep in mind that virtually all of the cultures and nation-states of Asia Minor and the Middle East believed that gods existed and exerted their influence in some form. That's why the OT is filled with the OT God "duking" it out with other gods through their respective prophets and priests. IIRC, this is also where the premise of "My god is stronger than your god, and so you should believe in my god!" comes from.
This is why the OT God feels so different from the NT God. The NT God is much more nebulous and otherworldly than the OT God because the Jews believed the OT God was literally on Earth with them (the Temple of Solomon was his house, remember?), whereas Jesus was meant to be either God incarnate or his representative. Either way, when Jesus dies and returns to heaven, God is effectively no longer on Earth as far as Christians are concerned.
If it were the will of God to make women slaves to their reproductive system, then yes, certainly it should intervene. Why wouldn't it? But let’s be honest here, you aren't trying to answer the question, or even engage in a debate. You're trying to shift the focus away from a discussion that would have you give a REAL answer.
Honestly though, why shouldn't God protect all the innocent lives?
What are you talking about? None of this has a basis in reality. If you rape a child you don't die. I mean, you die someday, but I don't see the connection to what you're saying. And if I lie I die? What are you talking about? You post some crazy stuff, but this really really out there.
And you forget, sir, that all sins, according to Christians, can be forgiven by asking Jesus for forgiveness. So really how it goes is: Rape a child, tell Jesus (not the child) that you're sorry, and you go to heaven.
But I would greatly like to hear more about how people "die" when they rape or lie.
And...this answers my question how? I'm doubting that a child forced to work in the sex trade is guilty of sin. And that's who I'm talking about. All the talk about sin yielding sin is fine and all, but it doesn't help the child praying that the suffering will end, does it?
So...um...are you preaching or something? Please explain how this is relevant to this thread at all.
Fantastic! What.is.your.point.
It's too bad the angels sat right alongside God doing nothing while watching in real-time the horrors bestowed on the weakest among us. I would rather have ACTION to stop these deeds than faith that someday, maybe, the evil-doers might, eventually, be punished, but only is a place that we don't know exists...
If you’re God exists, it can see this happening. Its inaction, no matter what bibble verse you come up with, sheds the brightest light. You God, if this were true I’m afraid would have to be labeled with some horrible and offensive adjective. No moral being can watch a child be raped, and while having the power to stop it, do nothing.
Again, you're rambling and sounding insane. How does this bible verse either A. help the suffering get release or B. answer the question of "why does God, who claims he loves us so, watch as we are tortured by those in power?" It doesn't. It's just madness being spewed from the pit of misguided intentions.
I've said this before to you and mean it. You need psychiatric help. There are whole wards devoted to people that think God is talking to them. Better to seem treatment now before you become dangerous to yourself or someone else.
As has been said over and over and over...an atheist does not CHOOSE to not believe. We don't believe because the story is unbelievable.
― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great
I bet he doesn't do any speaking to uncontacted Amazonian tribes either.
If Jesus were really speaking to people, my point is that we would expect him to speak to everyone, not only speak to those who are culturally inclined to think Jesus was speaking to them. On the other hand, if Jesus weren't really speaking to people, we'd expect that those are culturally inclined to believe it would report that he was, but everyone else wouldn't.
Seriously, if Jesus is out talking to people, why isn't he talking to people in areas where they don't believe in that? I bet Christians in many parts of Europe would be much less likely to think Jesus is talking to them, because they don't belong to sects that buy into that.
It describes seven different types of prayer:
Adoration, defined as "the lifting up of the heart and mind to God, asking nothing but to enjoy God's presence."
Praise, defined as the act of praising God "not to obtain anything, but because God's Being draws praise from us."
Thanksgiving, "offered to God for all of the blessings of this life, for our redemption, and for whatever draws us closer to God."
Penitence, defined as confessing of sins and making "restitution where possible, with the intention to amend our lives."
Oblation, "an offering of ourselves, our lives and labors, in union with Christ, for the purposes of God"
And Intercession and Petition, in which intercession is defined as bringing "before God the needs of others," and petition defined as presenting "our own needs, that God's will may be done."
I really like this viewpoint on prayer. I've considered life as a dialogue between us and God, and in this case, prayer is an extension of that.
It also, correctly, points out that prayer need not be for asking anything. Furthermore, in this definition of petition, it recognizes that God's will does not necessarily accord up with our own and we may not get what we want.
To me that's not the point. The point is the relationship with God.
But that's like saying that people say there are albino blackbirds by pointing out the white ones, using this as evidence for the existence of albino blackbirds, while never reporting how many are born not albino.
The fact remains that you only need one.
How Christians have depicted God has varied, but for the most part people will argue yes.
Fantastic point, too bad it goes way ColonelCoo's head.
I'd say stop feeding the troll but it just gets crazier and more entertaining as time goes on.
Anyway, prayer has been demonstrated to aid believers in healing. However, in those same studies we can see that prayer is about on par with a sugar pill. But that's to be expected when people make things up. That's why there is no unified church, individuals cherry-picking beliefs, God being wrathful and loving, and so fourth.
Of course prayer becomes whatever that individual decides to think. After all, imaginary friends are a reflection of self.
It would be argued that Jesus talks only to those who believe in him. I know plenty of Korean church goers who say Jesus listens to them and that he tells them stuff in their prayers. Last I checked, Koreans are Asians. They're not saying that they're having full-blown conversations mind you. Rather, it is more that they ask a question or pose a dilemma and they feel something that just tells them to choose this or that path. Think of it like an intuition or gut-feeling, just magnified many times over. They interpret it as Jesus telling them things.
And insult is saying stuff similar to what pb4786 said. Seriously, imaginary friends? Really?
That requires the assumption that Jesus wants everyone to believe in the same thing =P
And that everyone listens the same way, sees the same way, thinks the same way, understands the same way, interprets the same way, feels the same way...
Another person that missed the point. It is strange that God decided that only the Jews would get His revelation, a visit by Him in the form of the messiah. Now if God decided to forgive all of mankind's sin, why did he only pick one tiny band of "chosen" people? If the only path to heaven is through accepting Jesus as your savior, why didn't Jesus tour the earth?
Let me guess, God has a plan. At least Joseph Smith made up a story which covers this by saying Jesus visited somewhere else in the world.
And yeah, I think religious belief is a delusion and I think prayer is communicating with a socially acceptable imaginary friend. If you feel that's an insult, that's not my problem. The Bible and most every follower of Jesus have told me I'm going to hell. When I was younger I felt insulted by such claims. But then something happened, I grew up and my beliefs came into focus.
Something is only insulting if you give it that power. Respect doesn't require editing oneself in order to play nice, it simply requires honest, thoughtful communication.
No need to assume:
John 14:6: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Clearly, the salvation of any human requires the belief in Jesus as savior. You're both skirting the question here, why does God only seem to care about the tribe which already believed in Him? Why did Jesus show up when and where he did? Why does an omnipotent God act in incredibly small, pitiful ways?
Taking out the bs argument that man has free will blah blah blah, we can still say that God is inept at spreading His message. Nearly 6,000 years of recorded history and the majority of people in this world don't believe in Him. Either God likes to condemn people for ignorance and using critical thinking or God doesn't care or doesn't exist. And this is just one example. The sheer abundance of religions and interpretations is clear evidence of gods being imaginary friends.
It certainly is strange. But a couple of things-
First, I believe it is established that when Jesus died at the cross, he removed the original sin from everyone. So even the natives living on Australia had the taint of original sin removed from them at that point.
Ergo, the basic point of Christianity is to make sure that people know and remain close to God up until their death, so that they don't go on the wrong path.
Second, I've mentioned in another thread that there are verses in the NT that state that you can be saved even if you've never heard of Christ. It merely requires you to be a good person and live a life that doesn't have any of the Christian definition of sins, or if you do sin then you repent on your own truthfully. Now, this does go out of the window when you do hear of Christ, but that's another topic..
I am insulted only because you insult my parents with that claim. And because you show a lack of respect for other people in general.
It doesn't matter that Christians said that you'll go to hell if you don't believe. I've heard the same damned thing in Korea. Hell, I've had a whack-job scream that in my face. I ignored it.
But letting the actions of a few color your belief of the many isn't good. At least most Christians I've met are polite enough to keep their belief that you'll go to hell in their minds instead of saying it. It appears that most Christians you've met are not. Which is the more accurate interpretation? I don't know.
Then allow me to respectfully tell you that I believe your comments are insulting and show a lack of, or perhaps no desire of, understanding. Honest, thoughtful communication right?
Actually, that doesn't answer anything. The verse you quoted says that Jesus is the path to redemption and salvation. That doesn't tell us anything about Jesus's motives and what he wants people to believe. He could very well say "believe in X" to some group, then say "believe in Y" to another group. Both groups are compelled to believe in X or Y because Jesus said so.
Because the OT God is the Jewish god of the ancient times. I've already briefly explained what this means earlier.
As for your questions. I cannot answer them, and I doubt anyone could give you a straight answer, seeing as how you don't like the free will answer.
Why do you not like the free will answer though? That is a real central part of Christian ideology that I think isn't emphasized enough.
So if Jesus speaks to someone, and they don't do any of those things the "right" way to understand, he just throws up his hands and moves on?
Well based on the grammar / spelling /incoherence of the post, my first instinct was to feel you are not being sincere.
I think you are trying to say that people who believe they have heard from jesus himself are evidence towards dismissing the studies brought up earlier.
So why then do people not frequently change beliefs as they age? And why are these sects curiously mono-cultural? Why haven't any moderately large groups of people from outside the pentecostal circle been spoken to as had been spoken to by the pentecostals? And why would jesus selectively choose different groups of people to teach differently? Especially when differences in beliefs can cause you to go to hell, jesus seems rather indifferent to the whole affair.
And why is jesus so unjust as to give some people the benefit of growing up in the correct belief system where others are forced to believe after some mysterious chit-chat with jesus? Seems really unfair to me that jesus would damn virtually everybody who was not born in the correct region of the world.
I read that a few times, and I still can't make a bit of sense out of it, so I'm afraid I can't offer much of a reply. :\