I've been thinking about Jesus telling people to accept him into their hearts and that he is the only way.
John 14:6
"Jesus said unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes unto the Father, but by me" ---King James version
This statement has a general conciseness that it means without accepting Jesus(and by bible definition God) as your lord and savior you CANNOT get into heaven. No matter how good of a person you are otherwise, if you do not do this, you will be going to Hell when you perish.
Now for my question.
As Christians do you believe that if a child is born in the wilderness, with no knowledge of religion, faith, God, or anything of the such they will go to Hell when they die? The Bible states we are all sinners from the time we are born but then later contradictes itself with saying that children are innocent. when do you become no longer innocent?
This particular child has always been in the wilderness, with no connection to the outside world, mother died a very young age and the child grew to be a man, never knowing of civilization, never knowing more than hunting, gathering, and surviving.
The same question could be asked for a child that has not been saved, a two year old who dies in a car crash suddenly, no way to ever begin to worship your God or to even fathom what that even means.
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness, and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus. (Romans 2:14-16)
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness, and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus. (Romans 2:14-16)
That should about answer your question.
Despite what you may think, it does not. At all.
please be more clear with your response instead of a very vague Bible quote.
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness, and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus. (Romans 2:14-16)
That should about answer your question.
Despite what you may think, it does not. At all.
please be more clear with your response instead of a very vague Bible quote.
Seems pretty clear - those who do not know of the religion but exemplify it will be judged based on their actions, and if they exemplify the kind of actions that accompany accepting jesus, would get into heaven?
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For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness, and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus. (Romans 2:14-16)
That should about answer your question.
Despite what you may think, it does not. At all.
please be more clear with your response instead of a very vague Bible quote.
Seems pretty clear - those who do not know of the religion but exemplify it will be judged based on their actions, and if they exemplify the kind of actions that accompany accepting jesus, would get into heaven?
how can you possibly do that when your only interactions are with animals in case of the first example, and no interaction worth judging in the second?
if a child(around 1) takes a cookie off a table that wasnt theirs and eats it is it stealing? or is it simply being too young to even know what possession means?
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness, and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus. (Romans 2:14-16)
That should about answer your question.
Despite what you may think, it does not. At all.
please be more clear with your response instead of a very vague Bible quote.
Seems pretty clear - those who do not know of the religion but exemplify it will be judged based on their actions, and if they exemplify the kind of actions that accompany accepting jesus, would get into heaven?
how can you possibly do that when your only interactions are with animals in case of the first example, and no interaction worth judging in the second?
if a child(around 1) takes a cookie off a table that wasnt theirs and eats it is it stealing? or is it simply being too young to even know what possession means?
Based on that bible quote, they're judged relative to their actions
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Despite what you may think, it does not. At all.
please be more clear with your response instead of a very vague Bible quote.
Ok.
First, Gentiles refers to non-Jews, and the Law (capitalized on purpose) refers to Christ.
The verses basically say that people who do not know or do not embody Christ will not be judged according to the laws of God and Christ. Rather, they will be judged according to what they know to be right in their heart and conscience and their actions as a result of said knowledge. I think Paul makes the implicit assumption here that all human consciousness holds certain aspects of Christ's teachings, and that people who never heard Christ's teachings can still live a righteous life if they follow their conscience.
How does this apply for babies? So long as they aren't evil like Damien, they should be judged favorably by God, seeing as how they couldn't have done any sin that would be judged unfavorably by God.
Based on that bible quote, they're judged relative to their actions
Which means that, based on that bible quote, the worst thing you could do to a good person is introduce them to Christianity.
Ah, the Inuit and the priest joke. Gets me every time
I don't see it very much as a joke. It's more of an actual question. If you can live a righteous life without knowing about god, why do Christians push god onto others? If they wanted all to prosper and be happy and go to heaven they could just as easily( if not not easier) teach people how to live a righteous life with no mention of god I ensure the person would never have doubt and would still have the same end result.
I don't see it very much as a joke. It's more of an actual question. If you can live a righteous life without knowing about god, why do Christians push god onto others? If they wanted all to prosper and be happy and go to heaven they could just as easily( if not not easier) teach people how to live a righteous life with no mention of god I ensure the person would never have doubt and would still have the same end result.
You're not asking the right question. You should start with
"Who would benefit the most from pushing Christianity (or any religion for that matter) onto others?"
I don't see it very much as a joke. It's more of an actual question. If you can live a righteous life without knowing about god, why do Christians push god onto others? If they wanted all to prosper and be happy and go to heaven they could just as easily( if not not easier) teach people how to live a righteous life with no mention of god I ensure the person would never have doubt and would still have the same end result.
You're not asking the right question. You should start with
"Who would benefit the most from pushing Christianity (or any religion for that matter) onto others?"
obviously the leaders of the church/temple/ or such. they are always the the ones who come out into a place of power, wealth, and worship.
I don't see it very much as a joke. It's more of an actual question. If you can live a righteous life without knowing about god, why do Christians push god onto others? If they wanted all to prosper and be happy and go to heaven they could just as easily( if not not easier) teach people how to live a righteous life with no mention of god I ensure the person would never have doubt and would still have the same end result.
You're not asking the right question. You should start with
"Who would benefit the most from pushing Christianity (or any religion for that matter) onto others?"
Wouldn't the christian argument be that those that are introduced to christianity are the ones that benefit most?
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Wouldn't the christian argument be that those that are introduced to christianity are the ones that benefit most?
But Christians argue that those who have no knowledge of the religion and God would be judged based on their actions. Would that not be a better alternative to pushing Christianity unto others?
obviously the leaders of the church/temple/ or such. they are always the the ones who come out into a place of power, wealth, and worship.
That is definitely a plausible suggestions as most people argue that religion mixes very well with politics.
I was given lectures by the (apparently) world renown cognitive scientist/philosopher Stephen Stich who taught that perhaps there was a sociobiological basis for pushing religion unto people
Wouldn't the christian argument be that those that are introduced to christianity are the ones that benefit most?
But Christians argue that those who have no knowledge of the religion and God would be judged based on their actions. Would that not be a better alternative to pushing Christianity unto others?
From your perspective. From theirs, knowing Christianity and participating in it is inherently good, and something that a person would want to have.
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Wouldn't the christian argument be that those that are introduced to christianity are the ones that benefit most?
But Christians argue that those who have no knowledge of the religion and God would be judged based on their actions. Would that not be a better alternative to pushing Christianity unto others?
From your perspective. From theirs, knowing Christianity and participating in it is inherently good, and something that a person would want to have.
how can you claim to know what a person wants or needs?
Set aside the question of why people would tell each other about Christianity, if God were planning on judging everyone by their actions anyway, why would he bother with this whole extra mess? Many sects of Christianity hold that everyone is a sinner and that God's standard for living a virtuous life is essentially impossible for us to meet, and that's why we need Jesus to save us. Of course, if that's true, that doesn't bode well for those who are judged by their actions, as God will find them all lacking.
Wouldn't the christian argument be that those that are introduced to christianity are the ones that benefit most?
But Christians argue that those who have no knowledge of the religion and God would be judged based on their actions. Would that not be a better alternative to pushing Christianity unto others?
From your perspective. From theirs, knowing Christianity and participating in it is inherently good, and something that a person would want to have.
how can you claim to know what a person wants or needs?
Well, isn't that what every religion or system of belief claims? That it is the correct/best/most effective way to achieve fulfillment and happiness?
Set aside the question of why people would tell each other about Christianity, if God were planning on judging everyone by their actions anyway, why would he bother with this whole extra mess? Many sects of Christianity hold that everyone is a sinner and that God's standard for living a virtuous life is essentially impossible for us to meet, and that's why we need Jesus to save us. Of course, if that's true, that doesn't bode well for those who are judged by their actions, as God will find them all lacking.
Several sects hold that if you don't accept jesus (such as dying at birth before baptism), you can't go to heaven. However, the point to me seems to be that accepting jesus and being virtuous is what everyone should strive for, but in the case that someone was unable to experience the faith, they would only be judged by what is in their hearts.
The 'purpose' for god would be to have the right way to live spread to everyone as quickly as possible, while not punishing someone who has not heard the message yet.
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I was under the impression that most Christians hold that everyone "knows" Jesus and no one that listens with love in their heart could be without Him, since He is essentially just the inherent goodness in us all....
I was under the impression that most Christians hold that everyone "knows" Jesus and no one that listens with love in their heart could be without Him, since He is essentially just the inherent goodness in us all....
...or something.
I think thats what the bible verse was going for - people inherently "know" jesus, and will act that way without encountering religion, and will be judged based on that, and not on the actual act of accepting jesus actively.
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And, therein lies one of the problems with the generic Christian stance: The more Hallmark'y and lovey-dovey you make an interpretation, the more likely they are to nod along in agreement.
Which can be very very dangerous, since platitudes only sound good. In agreeing with that inanely I spouted you now agree that anyone who rejects "Jesus" is--by definition--rejecting the "inherent goodness in us all."
Can we have someone in a civil society that openly admits they have purposefully rejected their inherent goodness? Can you comfortably allow someone to live next door to you that has willingly spurned all that is right and just? I know I couldn't.
Conclusion: People that reject 'Jesus' need to GTFO.
The problem with this question is that their is no definitive answer. Yes the position of "Salvation of Infants" and those who have not heard the Gospels does exist but the fact may very well remain that the those who do not know of Jesus may very well be lost. This is why most churches take missionary work as something of critical importance.
I personally cannot reconcile a loving God with one that would punish those who have just been born in a non religious place. That being said we are commanded to make disciples of mankind and this may very well be because of the lost nature of those who have not heard.
John 14:6
"Jesus said unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes unto the Father, but by me" ---King James version
This statement has a general conciseness that it means without accepting Jesus(and by bible definition God) as your lord and savior you CANNOT get into heaven. No matter how good of a person you are otherwise, if you do not do this, you will be going to Hell when you perish.
Now for my question.
As Christians do you believe that if a child is born in the wilderness, with no knowledge of religion, faith, God, or anything of the such they will go to Hell when they die? The Bible states we are all sinners from the time we are born but then later contradictes itself with saying that children are innocent. when do you become no longer innocent?
This particular child has always been in the wilderness, with no connection to the outside world, mother died a very young age and the child grew to be a man, never knowing of civilization, never knowing more than hunting, gathering, and surviving.
The same question could be asked for a child that has not been saved, a two year old who dies in a car crash suddenly, no way to ever begin to worship your God or to even fathom what that even means.
Thoughts? Opinions?
That should about answer your question.
Despite what you may think, it does not. At all.
please be more clear with your response instead of a very vague Bible quote.
Seems pretty clear - those who do not know of the religion but exemplify it will be judged based on their actions, and if they exemplify the kind of actions that accompany accepting jesus, would get into heaven?
G MGC
WB Teysa Tokens
BR Wortsnort
UG 23.5-No Edric
URG Noncombo Animar
GUB Damia Stax
WBR Alesha Hatebear Recursion
WBR Daddy Tariel
UBR [Je]love-a Your Deck
GWU Almost Critterless Enchantress
WUB Sydri+Artifacts=WUB
WURG Glint-Eye Combo
how can you possibly do that when your only interactions are with animals in case of the first example, and no interaction worth judging in the second?
if a child(around 1) takes a cookie off a table that wasnt theirs and eats it is it stealing? or is it simply being too young to even know what possession means?
Based on that bible quote, they're judged relative to their actions
G MGC
WB Teysa Tokens
BR Wortsnort
UG 23.5-No Edric
URG Noncombo Animar
GUB Damia Stax
WBR Alesha Hatebear Recursion
WBR Daddy Tariel
UBR [Je]love-a Your Deck
GWU Almost Critterless Enchantress
WUB Sydri+Artifacts=WUB
WURG Glint-Eye Combo
My G Yisan, the Bard of Death G deck.
My BUGWR Hermit druid BUGWR deck.
Ok.
First, Gentiles refers to non-Jews, and the Law (capitalized on purpose) refers to Christ.
The verses basically say that people who do not know or do not embody Christ will not be judged according to the laws of God and Christ. Rather, they will be judged according to what they know to be right in their heart and conscience and their actions as a result of said knowledge. I think Paul makes the implicit assumption here that all human consciousness holds certain aspects of Christ's teachings, and that people who never heard Christ's teachings can still live a righteous life if they follow their conscience.
How does this apply for babies? So long as they aren't evil like Damien, they should be judged favorably by God, seeing as how they couldn't have done any sin that would be judged unfavorably by God.
Edit-
Minor additions,
and clarifications.
Ah, the Inuit and the priest joke. Gets me every time
I don't see it very much as a joke. It's more of an actual question. If you can live a righteous life without knowing about god, why do Christians push god onto others? If they wanted all to prosper and be happy and go to heaven they could just as easily( if not not easier) teach people how to live a righteous life with no mention of god I ensure the person would never have doubt and would still have the same end result.
You're not asking the right question. You should start with
"Who would benefit the most from pushing Christianity (or any religion for that matter) onto others?"
obviously the leaders of the church/temple/ or such. they are always the the ones who come out into a place of power, wealth, and worship.
Wouldn't the christian argument be that those that are introduced to christianity are the ones that benefit most?
G MGC
WB Teysa Tokens
BR Wortsnort
UG 23.5-No Edric
URG Noncombo Animar
GUB Damia Stax
WBR Alesha Hatebear Recursion
WBR Daddy Tariel
UBR [Je]love-a Your Deck
GWU Almost Critterless Enchantress
WUB Sydri+Artifacts=WUB
WURG Glint-Eye Combo
But Christians argue that those who have no knowledge of the religion and God would be judged based on their actions. Would that not be a better alternative to pushing Christianity unto others?
That is definitely a plausible suggestions as most people argue that religion mixes very well with politics.
I was given lectures by the (apparently) world renown cognitive scientist/philosopher Stephen Stich who taught that perhaps there was a sociobiological basis for pushing religion unto people
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_psychology_of_religion
From your perspective. From theirs, knowing Christianity and participating in it is inherently good, and something that a person would want to have.
G MGC
WB Teysa Tokens
BR Wortsnort
UG 23.5-No Edric
URG Noncombo Animar
GUB Damia Stax
WBR Alesha Hatebear Recursion
WBR Daddy Tariel
UBR [Je]love-a Your Deck
GWU Almost Critterless Enchantress
WUB Sydri+Artifacts=WUB
WURG Glint-Eye Combo
how can you claim to know what a person wants or needs?
Well, isn't that what every religion or system of belief claims? That it is the correct/best/most effective way to achieve fulfillment and happiness?
Several sects hold that if you don't accept jesus (such as dying at birth before baptism), you can't go to heaven. However, the point to me seems to be that accepting jesus and being virtuous is what everyone should strive for, but in the case that someone was unable to experience the faith, they would only be judged by what is in their hearts.
The 'purpose' for god would be to have the right way to live spread to everyone as quickly as possible, while not punishing someone who has not heard the message yet.
G MGC
WB Teysa Tokens
BR Wortsnort
UG 23.5-No Edric
URG Noncombo Animar
GUB Damia Stax
WBR Alesha Hatebear Recursion
WBR Daddy Tariel
UBR [Je]love-a Your Deck
GWU Almost Critterless Enchantress
WUB Sydri+Artifacts=WUB
WURG Glint-Eye Combo
...or something.
I think thats what the bible verse was going for - people inherently "know" jesus, and will act that way without encountering religion, and will be judged based on that, and not on the actual act of accepting jesus actively.
G MGC
WB Teysa Tokens
BR Wortsnort
UG 23.5-No Edric
URG Noncombo Animar
GUB Damia Stax
WBR Alesha Hatebear Recursion
WBR Daddy Tariel
UBR [Je]love-a Your Deck
GWU Almost Critterless Enchantress
WUB Sydri+Artifacts=WUB
WURG Glint-Eye Combo
Which can be very very dangerous, since platitudes only sound good. In agreeing with that inanely I spouted you now agree that anyone who rejects "Jesus" is--by definition--rejecting the "inherent goodness in us all."
Can we have someone in a civil society that openly admits they have purposefully rejected their inherent goodness? Can you comfortably allow someone to live next door to you that has willingly spurned all that is right and just? I know I couldn't.
Conclusion: People that reject 'Jesus' need to GTFO.
I personally cannot reconcile a loving God with one that would punish those who have just been born in a non religious place. That being said we are commanded to make disciples of mankind and this may very well be because of the lost nature of those who have not heard.