Personally, I find author Terry Pratchett's description of this scenario most likely:
"Upon his death, the philosopher in question found himself surrounded by a group of angry gods with clubs. The last thing he heard was 'We're going to show you how we deal with Mister Clever Dick around here...'"
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"Proving god exists isn't hard. Proving god is God is the tricky part" - Roommate
The thing about it in general is that people have choices.
You have the choice to believe in God. You also have the choice not to believe in God.
If you do choose to believe in God then if it does turn out that he doesn't exist then you have lost nothing. you die and then nothing.
If you don't believe in God though you have to believe that he doesn't exist. if He does end up existing then you lose everything including your soul. The only hope that you have is that he really doesn't exist.
Someone mentioned convience. I find that there are many people that claim to be christians for that simple thing alone. Yet Christ already told how they will be responded to.
Some one else mentioned they would rather be judged on their works. You seriously want to have your deeds judged against perfection? Good luck with that. You will find that your deeds and works don't measure up.
i think pascal's wager is meant more for discussion than any type of serious theory.
It does envoke thought.
Perhaps it forces thought, but it utterly and completely falls apart as it poses a False Dichotomy. Even with the Christian God, there are dozens, hundreds of different sects varying from Megachurches to little backwater snakehandling churches, each and every one adamant that their way is the true and only way to heaven, and all the rest are wrong. This is just with the Christian God. Not even looking at hundreds of other Gods. If Paschal's Wager can be applied to God, why not Odin? Zeus? Shiva? The Flyinig Spaghetti Monster? C'thulhu? Banjo the Handpuppet God? Every other God you throw in there dilutes the odds more and more, and frankly, makes disbelief all the more appealing. At least you aren't angering any of them any more by favoring one, am I wrong?
Furthermore, belief can't be forced. So at best, I'm saying lip service prayers just to hedge my bets. Not to mention, just "believing" by any religion's standards isn't enough. There are behavioral conducts, some have dietary laws, some demand monetary donations, others need sacrifices. Again, to hedge my bets, it gets confusing. I can no longer be homosexual, for example. Nor can I have my bacon cheeseburgers...fish on Fridays, too...not a fan of fish, by the way. The Norse believe you must die in battle, so should I throw myself on a sword on my death bed, or just commit suicide by cop? Except either of these are a mortal sin by the Abrahamic religions, so that raises a conundrum. Not to mention the running virgins up the side of the mountain to appease the Volcano Gods. The Mormons disallow blood transfusions. If my life is on the line, should I really leave my fate in the hands of a God I am only paying lip service to? You ask if I wish to be judged against perfection, I say I think my odds are better if I just be the best me I can be, leave the world a better place than I left it, and hope it's enough for whoever's standing at the gates.
"I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, 'Wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them?' So now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe." - Marcus Cole, Babylon 5
The crux of your argument is "making a religion up out of thin air". Since the world religions exist, this presents a problem to your argument.
Note, I am not saying that because world religions exist they are correct, rather that equating them to a belief created on a whim is an oversimplification.
Even without the other world religions, the "no made up religions" position runs into a problem on the face of it, because it demands special pleading. Unless you already believe in divine revelation, you have no reason to believe that e.g. Christianity wasn't just made up out of thin air in the first place (and especially have no reason to believe that any particular Christian sect wasn't just made up out of thin air, since the genesis of many of those sects are well-documented).
So, to reduce the options in Pascal's Wager even to just actual world religions, you have to posit something that drops the odds of the made-up-out-of-thin-air possibilities to infinitesimal or zero without dropping the odds of the world religions to zero. Given that Pascal's Wager hinges crucially on the non-disprovable nature of religious positions, I think you've got a ludicrously difficult job in front of you; the only possibility I can think of that would do the necessary work would be if you accept a religion as divine revelation, in which case you don't need the wager for belief.
We're in the realm of pure speculation free from the shackles of evidence-based reasoning, so the possibilities we can contemplate are endless.
exactly which is why i said that pascal's wager is more about thinking than an actual arguement.
it generates conversation vs providing proof of anything.
each and every one adamant that their way is the true and only way to heaven
Coming from a christian point of a view i find significant fault with that. The only way to heaven from a christian standpoint is Christ.
He is the way the Truth and the Light no man comes through the father but through him.
So when i hear other christian denominations claiming they are the only real way through heaven red flags go up.
Furthermore, belief can't be forced.
Your right belief is a choice whether it is in religion or in science or what have you. it requires some method of belief.
as for the rest that you mention a lot of that is religious dogma. something that for the most people i have to question where people come up with this stuff from.
Furthermore, belief can't be forced.
That is question and still under debate in many circles. i have my own theory on the matter.
God is a benevolant and just God. so to punish an innocent that didn't hear about him would go against that.
So my belief is that, that child will be accepted.
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Coming from a christian point of a view i find significant fault with that. The only way to heaven from a christian standpoint is Christ.
Excect a great many...admittedly not all...will still call the other factions "wrong." Every denomination and subsect falls down an ever deepening and ever more specific belief of what a "true" Christian believes. Admittedly, not all believe this. Many, like you, merely feel all you need is to believe Christ is your savior, and that is all that is required to wear the label of Christian. However, the Christian faith still has schismed and fragmented over the years...start between Catholic and Christian, and continue subdividing over slight interpretations over the Bible. As I said, each sect is certain theirs is the one and only true belief.
Your right belief is a choice whether it is in religion or in science or what have you. it requires some method of belief.
as for the rest that you mention a lot of that is religious dogma. something that for the most people i have to question where people come up with this stuff from.
Precisely, so to just say "I believe in Jesus because someone says if I don't, I go to hell" is either a lie, or very, very superficial faith. Remember the 1990s version of the Mummy...the guy, when cornered, starts pulling out holy symbols, one by one until one gets a reaction? That is what Paschal's wager seems like to me. You don't believe in it, you just say you do, and hope to slide by on a technicality. You don't believe because you have faith, you just say you believe because you're ambivalent about the afterlife, and are hoping to slide by.
God is a benevolant and just God. so to punish an innocent that didn't hear about him would go against that.
So why that child, and not someone who just couldn't reconcile the existence of God. If he is just and benevolent, then Hell itself seems...well...cruel.
Coming from a christian point of a view i find significant fault with that. The only way to heaven from a christian standpoint is Christ.
He is the way the Truth and the Light no man comes through the father but through him.
So when i hear other christian denominations claiming they are the only real way through heaven red flags go up.
But they're only red flags because you're assuming your "Christian point of view" is the correct one. The whole point of Pascal's Wager is trying to decide what to believe when you don't know which religious sect is the correct one. Maybe the only way to God is the Third Reformed Tabernacle Church of Podunk. Maybe you're going to hell for your rejection of their beliefs.
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Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
But they're only red flags because you're assuming your "Christian point of view" is the correct one.
Your running statements together. He was talking about different christian sects. so therefore in order to relate it has to come from a christian point of view. That view is based on the bible.
Maybe the only way to God is the Third Reformed Tabernacle Church of Podunk. Maybe you're going to hell for your rejection of their beliefs.
In the end we will see.
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- Those who fail God's test go to hell. (If you behave in a manner that would result in failing, but God doesn't exist, then nothing happens.)
- Those who pass God's test go to heaven. (If you behave in a manner that would result in passing, but God doesn't exist, then nothing happens.)
- One can pass God's test by believing in God.
- Therefore, as far as "placing your bet" is concerned, it makes the most sense to believe in God.
The third one seems a bit random. I have an alternative that is more likely to be correct:
- Those who fail God's test go to hell. (If you behave in a manner that would result in failing, but God doesn't exist, then nothing happens.)
- Those who pass God's test go to heaven. (If you behave in a manner that would result in passing, but God doesn't exist, then nothing happens.)
- God wrote a book that has been proven incorrect and says that he exists, in order to test our gullibility.
- One can pass God's test by deducing that God's book isn't correct.
- Therefore, as far as "placing your bet" is concerned, it makes the most sense to not believe in God.
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Standard: [leftovers from booster drafts]
Modern: U M'Olk; B Goodstuff
Personally, I think the premise holds, though I believe he was being a bit too specific. Put simply, if the Atheists are right, nothing happens. However, if anything else is right, than not having a belief in anything means you are forfeiting the chance, bar none.
The thing is, any given set of beliefs is equally likely to be true, and ignoring Atheism is the only one which holds no potential rewards for following it. These supposedly ludicrous hypotheticals posited by everyone else hold more merit than not believing in anything.
When someone says that being athiest holds no rewards, what that implies is that they believe that if there is a god out there, that it is a horrible god that burns every good and virtuous person He can find...unless of course that person happened to cater to His frail ego beforehand. Atheists have nothing to fear from virtuous gods, just the monstrous ones. Any decent deity would pass judgement based on the merits of your actions, not your ability to fill the collection plate in church.
Atheists would probably have the least to fear. If there was a deity out there that cared about your belief system, that deity would be more likely to be angered by you believing in the wrong deity than in none at all. I can't imagine a deity saying "gee, I gave this person no reason to believe in me and like a normal person, he did not believe in me. I guess I'll punish him for that."
This is how I see Pascal's wager:
1. There are countless possible deities one could believe in.
2. The 'true' one is deity #4598734592.
3. Anyone who takes 'the safer bet' by believing in a god will burn forever. Unless of course they happened to be indoctrinated into believing in deity #4598734592 (which probably is not among the many thousands of religions people have come up with so far).
4. Therefore, no matter how good you are or what you believe, you will burn.
I look at things with more of an Atheists wager:
1. Be a good person.
2. If there is a god out there, He/She/It will surely judge you based on the merits of your actions.
3. What you believe or do not believe is irrelevant. If you are a good person and you die, you will go where good people go. If you are a bad person and you die, you will go where bad people go.
"I would rather believe that God exists and be wrong, losing out on some finite moments of pleasure or personal gain and just rot in the earth. Than not believe in him, and have to live in Hell for the rest of eternity."
Well, there's easily 10,000+ gods made up by mankind over the years, and almost all of them have a special place for non-believers to suffer. So, it looks like you'll just have to pray 24/7 to everyone if you want to take Pascal's Wager.
But wait, there's more! Most of the gods are quite jealous and will make you suffer for also worshipping other gods.
So, I guess Pascal is screwed!
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Art is life itself.
"Upon his death, the philosopher in question found himself surrounded by a group of angry gods with clubs. The last thing he heard was 'We're going to show you how we deal with Mister Clever Dick around here...'"
Perhaps it forces thought, but it utterly and completely falls apart as it poses a False Dichotomy. Even with the Christian God, there are dozens, hundreds of different sects varying from Megachurches to little backwater snakehandling churches, each and every one adamant that their way is the true and only way to heaven, and all the rest are wrong. This is just with the Christian God. Not even looking at hundreds of other Gods. If Paschal's Wager can be applied to God, why not Odin? Zeus? Shiva? The Flyinig Spaghetti Monster? C'thulhu? Banjo the Handpuppet God? Every other God you throw in there dilutes the odds more and more, and frankly, makes disbelief all the more appealing. At least you aren't angering any of them any more by favoring one, am I wrong?
Furthermore, belief can't be forced. So at best, I'm saying lip service prayers just to hedge my bets. Not to mention, just "believing" by any religion's standards isn't enough. There are behavioral conducts, some have dietary laws, some demand monetary donations, others need sacrifices. Again, to hedge my bets, it gets confusing. I can no longer be homosexual, for example. Nor can I have my bacon cheeseburgers...fish on Fridays, too...not a fan of fish, by the way. The Norse believe you must die in battle, so should I throw myself on a sword on my death bed, or just commit suicide by cop? Except either of these are a mortal sin by the Abrahamic religions, so that raises a conundrum. Not to mention the running virgins up the side of the mountain to appease the Volcano Gods. The Mormons disallow blood transfusions. If my life is on the line, should I really leave my fate in the hands of a God I am only paying lip service to? You ask if I wish to be judged against perfection, I say I think my odds are better if I just be the best me I can be, leave the world a better place than I left it, and hope it's enough for whoever's standing at the gates.
The creator of Maro's Magic 8-Ball!
And that's only a few religions; imagine believing them all. The lesson here, never take the wager Pascal poses.
Even without the other world religions, the "no made up religions" position runs into a problem on the face of it, because it demands special pleading. Unless you already believe in divine revelation, you have no reason to believe that e.g. Christianity wasn't just made up out of thin air in the first place (and especially have no reason to believe that any particular Christian sect wasn't just made up out of thin air, since the genesis of many of those sects are well-documented).
So, to reduce the options in Pascal's Wager even to just actual world religions, you have to posit something that drops the odds of the made-up-out-of-thin-air possibilities to infinitesimal or zero without dropping the odds of the world religions to zero. Given that Pascal's Wager hinges crucially on the non-disprovable nature of religious positions, I think you've got a ludicrously difficult job in front of you; the only possibility I can think of that would do the necessary work would be if you accept a religion as divine revelation, in which case you don't need the wager for belief.
exactly which is why i said that pascal's wager is more about thinking than an actual arguement.
it generates conversation vs providing proof of anything.
Coming from a christian point of a view i find significant fault with that. The only way to heaven from a christian standpoint is Christ.
He is the way the Truth and the Light no man comes through the father but through him.
So when i hear other christian denominations claiming they are the only real way through heaven red flags go up.
Your right belief is a choice whether it is in religion or in science or what have you. it requires some method of belief.
as for the rest that you mention a lot of that is religious dogma. something that for the most people i have to question where people come up with this stuff from.
That is question and still under debate in many circles. i have my own theory on the matter.
God is a benevolant and just God. so to punish an innocent that didn't hear about him would go against that.
So my belief is that, that child will be accepted.
Thanks to Epic Graphics the best around.
Thanks to Nex3 for the avatar visit ye old sig and avatar forum
Excect a great many...admittedly not all...will still call the other factions "wrong." Every denomination and subsect falls down an ever deepening and ever more specific belief of what a "true" Christian believes. Admittedly, not all believe this. Many, like you, merely feel all you need is to believe Christ is your savior, and that is all that is required to wear the label of Christian. However, the Christian faith still has schismed and fragmented over the years...start between Catholic and Christian, and continue subdividing over slight interpretations over the Bible. As I said, each sect is certain theirs is the one and only true belief.
Precisely, so to just say "I believe in Jesus because someone says if I don't, I go to hell" is either a lie, or very, very superficial faith. Remember the 1990s version of the Mummy...the guy, when cornered, starts pulling out holy symbols, one by one until one gets a reaction? That is what Paschal's wager seems like to me. You don't believe in it, you just say you do, and hope to slide by on a technicality. You don't believe because you have faith, you just say you believe because you're ambivalent about the afterlife, and are hoping to slide by.
So why that child, and not someone who just couldn't reconcile the existence of God. If he is just and benevolent, then Hell itself seems...well...cruel.
The creator of Maro's Magic 8-Ball!
But they're only red flags because you're assuming your "Christian point of view" is the correct one. The whole point of Pascal's Wager is trying to decide what to believe when you don't know which religious sect is the correct one. Maybe the only way to God is the Third Reformed Tabernacle Church of Podunk. Maybe you're going to hell for your rejection of their beliefs.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Your running statements together. He was talking about different christian sects. so therefore in order to relate it has to come from a christian point of view. That view is based on the bible.
In the end we will see.
Thanks to Epic Graphics the best around.
Thanks to Nex3 for the avatar visit ye old sig and avatar forum
- Those who pass God's test go to heaven. (If you behave in a manner that would result in passing, but God doesn't exist, then nothing happens.)
- One can pass God's test by believing in God.
- Therefore, as far as "placing your bet" is concerned, it makes the most sense to believe in God.
The third one seems a bit random. I have an alternative that is more likely to be correct:
- Those who fail God's test go to hell. (If you behave in a manner that would result in failing, but God doesn't exist, then nothing happens.)
- Those who pass God's test go to heaven. (If you behave in a manner that would result in passing, but God doesn't exist, then nothing happens.)
- God wrote a book that has been proven incorrect and says that he exists, in order to test our gullibility.
- One can pass God's test by deducing that God's book isn't correct.
- Therefore, as far as "placing your bet" is concerned, it makes the most sense to not believe in God.
Modern: U M'Olk; B Goodstuff
Atheists would probably have the least to fear. If there was a deity out there that cared about your belief system, that deity would be more likely to be angered by you believing in the wrong deity than in none at all. I can't imagine a deity saying "gee, I gave this person no reason to believe in me and like a normal person, he did not believe in me. I guess I'll punish him for that."
This is how I see Pascal's wager:
1. There are countless possible deities one could believe in.
2. The 'true' one is deity #4598734592.
3. Anyone who takes 'the safer bet' by believing in a god will burn forever. Unless of course they happened to be indoctrinated into believing in deity #4598734592 (which probably is not among the many thousands of religions people have come up with so far).
4. Therefore, no matter how good you are or what you believe, you will burn.
I look at things with more of an Atheists wager:
1. Be a good person.
2. If there is a god out there, He/She/It will surely judge you based on the merits of your actions.
3. What you believe or do not believe is irrelevant. If you are a good person and you die, you will go where good people go. If you are a bad person and you die, you will go where bad people go.
My G Yisan, the Bard of Death G deck.
My BUGWR Hermit druid BUGWR deck.
Well, there's easily 10,000+ gods made up by mankind over the years, and almost all of them have a special place for non-believers to suffer. So, it looks like you'll just have to pray 24/7 to everyone if you want to take Pascal's Wager.
But wait, there's more! Most of the gods are quite jealous and will make you suffer for also worshipping other gods.
So, I guess Pascal is screwed!