I think it all boils down to people in any people group are good and some people are bad. I'm a Christian and have Atheist friends that I enjoy debating with and some that I avoid the topic at all costs. I also have Christian friends that I have a hard time being around as they overly spiritualize every event in their life. I read "The God Delusion", read a lot of atheist forums, etc. and have seen that Atheists can be just as annoying as that annoying Christian that you can't have a conversation with, without them trying to convert you.
The problem that I see the most with the new young Atheists is that they are much more aggressive and just assume you are an idiot, anti-science, have a low IQ, etc if you believe in anything but atheism. They are not fun to be around and I have never really understood why Atheists waste so much time bothering people that believe something else. The majority of Christians are good people that do good things and the majority of Atheists are also good people that do good things.
Christians wanting to convert people at least makes sense to me as a Christian. Atheists bothering to convert people on the other hand just seems like a total waste of time to me. If I was an Atheist the last thing I would do is bother other people and try to get them to think like me.
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Christians wanting to convert people at least makes sense to me as a Christian. Atheists bothering to convert people on the other hand just seems like a total waste of time to me. If I was an Atheist the last thing I would do is bother other people and try to get them to think like me.
Why do you consider it more logical to convert someone to a creed of faith than to convert someone to a creed of evidence?
Why do you consider it more logical to convert someone to a creed of faith than to convert someone to a creed of evidence?
Because when someone is trying to convert someone to a creed of faith they are trying (perhaps misguidedly, but they ARE trying) to save that person.
When a person is trying to convert someone away froma creed of faith, and not to a new creed of faith, they don't have that reason. Thats the fundakmental question of the thread: Why bother? At least Christians have a reason to want to do it...
Why do you consider it more logical to convert someone to a creed of faith than to convert someone to a creed of evidence?
Because when someone is trying to convert someone to a creed of faith they are trying (perhaps misguidedly, but they ARE trying) to save that person.
When a person is trying to convert someone away froma creed of faith, and not to a new creed of faith, they don't have that reason. Thats the fundakmental question of the thread: Why bother? At least Christians have a reason to want to do it...
Personally, I think people are happier when they make the decision to behave ethically and morally for reasons unrelated to being "saved" (or fear of NOT being "saved"), and I can see other people believing similarly and working to convert on that basis. You're trying to improve our afterlives; we're trying to improve your lives.
And, as other people have said throughout this thread--you vote based on your faith. If I believe that those votes contribute to a society that is harmful to me, why wouldn't I try to convince you that you're misguided?
Why do you consider it more logical to convert someone to a creed of faith than to convert someone to a creed of evidence?
Because when someone is trying to convert someone to a creed of faith they are trying (perhaps misguidedly, but they ARE trying) to save that person.
When a person is trying to convert someone away froma creed of faith, and not to a new creed of faith, they don't have that reason. Thats the fundakmental question of the thread: Why bother? At least Christians have a reason to want to do it...
False, you simply don't believe the reasons an atheist would have to convert a theist hold any merit.
Maybe they find it amusing that one can devote oneself to an all powerful being (who may or may not be real) simply based on faith. So it's not really that they are trying to convert the theist...but maybe more like "how can you believe something like that without hard evidence?"
Because when someone is trying to convert someone to a creed of faith they are trying (perhaps misguidedly, but they ARE trying) to save that person.
When a person is trying to convert someone away froma creed of faith, and not to a new creed of faith, they don't have that reason. Thats the fundakmental question of the thread: Why bother? At least Christians have a reason to want to do it...
You don't see saving a person from their own ignorance as a reason?
It's not even a question of being selfless. Religious thinking is dangerous to me and I would like to live in a world with less of it.
When a person is trying to convert someone away froma creed of faith, and not to a new creed of faith, they don't have that reason. Thats the fundakmental question of the thread: Why bother? At least Christians have a reason to want to do it...
You are trying to save them by clasping the shackles of Christianity. The exercise of braking someone from these shackles can easily be seen as freeing someone, or at least freeing their mind. Our reason is no less noble then yours.
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Our belief is not a belief. Our principles are not a faith. We do not rely solely upon science and reason, because these are necessary rather than sufficient factors, but we distrust anything that contradicts science or outrages reason. We may differ on many things, but what we respect is free inquiry, openmindedness, and the pursuit of ideas for their own sake.
― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great
I am an atheist who gets into friendly discussions with people about religion.
I cannot speak for everyone, but here is my reason for feeling the urge to debate: It's hard for me to ignore it when other people misrepresent my position. I'm not out there to convert people. I'm out to explain my own stance on the issue, and make people realize that there are plenty of friendly, morally normal atheists in the world.
I cannot sit idly by and listen to misinformation about a demographic group of which I am a part. It is frustrating to hear a coworker say something like "yeah, but those scientists, they don't believe in god!" in a condemning tone. I might ask: "why should that be a bad thing?" and then people have a debate on their hands.
It's not about conversion, it's about understanding. I don't need to convert my debating partner in order to 'win'. All I'm trying to do is get them to understand why I've reached this conclusion, and acknowledge my position as neither insane nor depraved. And maybe then they'll understand me a little better, too.
I am an atheist who gets into friendly discussions with people about religion.
I cannot speak for everyone, but here is my reason for feeling the urge to debate: It's hard for me to ignore it when other people misrepresent my position. I'm not out there to convert people. I'm out to explain my own stance on the issue, and make people realize that there are plenty of friendly, morally normal atheists in the world.
I cannot sit idly by and listen to misinformation about a demographic group of which I am a part. It is frustrating to hear a coworker say something like "yeah, but those scientists, they don't believe in god!" in a condemning tone. I might ask: "why should that be a bad thing?" and then people have a debate on their hands.
It's not about conversion, it's about understanding. I don't need to convert my debating partner in order to 'win'. All I'm trying to do is get them to understand why I've reached this conclusion, and acknowledge my position as neither insane nor depraved. And maybe then they'll understand me a little better, too.
Great post. I personally am an Orthodox Christian and agree with everything said in this post. Another hard factor for me is that I feel like I have to defend myself against both Atheists and Western Christians as I often feel my beliefs are generalized by Atheists into being similar to Western Christian beliefs while at the same time Western Christians may claim I'm an atheist or that I'm definitely not a Christian at the least.
No, really. It's not going to change their mind instantaneously, but I can point you to a number of people for whom the defining moment in their deconversion was losing a debate, or wondering why they could never seem to win a debate.
Because in a marketplace of ideas, you get exactly nowhere by shutting up and sitting at the back of the bus. If we really think that it is true that theism is an intellectually unsustainable position, not to mention the harm it's doing in the world, why wouldn't we say so?
It was a very long road I had to walk from my christian raising till my atheist days. Ultimately I had too many conversations with very smart people who forced me to examine my own beliefs. I realized that I had spent a lot of time allowing myself to be controlled by others thoughts on Morality.
The Day I started truly thinking for myself was the day I realized that either God didn't exist, or he was so evil that I had a moral obligation to oppose him.
This happened finally, because I was asked one too many questions about my faith, and I couldn't lie to myself any longer.
The only times I've ever seen Atheists try to convert people aside from internet debates, is when the religious behavior is actually destructive. When they start doubting science or avoiding medical care because they thought god told them to make it through on prayer alone. Overcoming bigotry is a good reason to.
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The problem that I see the most with the new young Atheists is that they are much more aggressive and just assume you are an idiot, anti-science, have a low IQ, etc if you believe in anything but atheism. They are not fun to be around and I have never really understood why Atheists waste so much time bothering people that believe something else. The majority of Christians are good people that do good things and the majority of Atheists are also good people that do good things.
Christians wanting to convert people at least makes sense to me as a Christian. Atheists bothering to convert people on the other hand just seems like a total waste of time to me. If I was an Atheist the last thing I would do is bother other people and try to get them to think like me.
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Why do you consider it more logical to convert someone to a creed of faith than to convert someone to a creed of evidence?
Standard: W/R Aggro
Because when someone is trying to convert someone to a creed of faith they are trying (perhaps misguidedly, but they ARE trying) to save that person.
When a person is trying to convert someone away froma creed of faith, and not to a new creed of faith, they don't have that reason. Thats the fundakmental question of the thread: Why bother? At least Christians have a reason to want to do it...
Personally, I think people are happier when they make the decision to behave ethically and morally for reasons unrelated to being "saved" (or fear of NOT being "saved"), and I can see other people believing similarly and working to convert on that basis. You're trying to improve our afterlives; we're trying to improve your lives.
And, as other people have said throughout this thread--you vote based on your faith. If I believe that those votes contribute to a society that is harmful to me, why wouldn't I try to convince you that you're misguided?
Standard: W/R Aggro
False, you simply don't believe the reasons an atheist would have to convert a theist hold any merit.
It's not even a question of being selfless. Religious thinking is dangerous to me and I would like to live in a world with less of it.
You are trying to save them by clasping the shackles of Christianity. The exercise of braking someone from these shackles can easily be seen as freeing someone, or at least freeing their mind. Our reason is no less noble then yours.
― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great
I cannot speak for everyone, but here is my reason for feeling the urge to debate: It's hard for me to ignore it when other people misrepresent my position. I'm not out there to convert people. I'm out to explain my own stance on the issue, and make people realize that there are plenty of friendly, morally normal atheists in the world.
I cannot sit idly by and listen to misinformation about a demographic group of which I am a part. It is frustrating to hear a coworker say something like "yeah, but those scientists, they don't believe in god!" in a condemning tone. I might ask: "why should that be a bad thing?" and then people have a debate on their hands.
It's not about conversion, it's about understanding. I don't need to convert my debating partner in order to 'win'. All I'm trying to do is get them to understand why I've reached this conclusion, and acknowledge my position as neither insane nor depraved. And maybe then they'll understand me a little better, too.
Great post. I personally am an Orthodox Christian and agree with everything said in this post. Another hard factor for me is that I feel like I have to defend myself against both Atheists and Western Christians as I often feel my beliefs are generalized by Atheists into being similar to Western Christian beliefs while at the same time Western Christians may claim I'm an atheist or that I'm definitely not a Christian at the least.
It was a very long road I had to walk from my christian raising till my atheist days. Ultimately I had too many conversations with very smart people who forced me to examine my own beliefs. I realized that I had spent a lot of time allowing myself to be controlled by others thoughts on Morality.
The Day I started truly thinking for myself was the day I realized that either God didn't exist, or he was so evil that I had a moral obligation to oppose him.
This happened finally, because I was asked one too many questions about my faith, and I couldn't lie to myself any longer.
So, your right, that's why it's done.