"Washington Post political science blog Monkey Cage, asked Americans this question: "Which of these do you think most likely describes what Obama believes deep down? Muslim, Christian, atheist, spiritual, or I don't know." The poll was conducted in the fall of 2014. The results, divided by party affiliation, are shown above. And they're pretty staggering. Among Republicans, 54 percent answered "Muslim" when asked what Obama believes; only nine percent said "Christian," his stated religion."[1]
Why is calling the president a 'secret Muslim' even a thing?
What does it even mean to say "deep down" he's a Muslim? Is it meant as an insult? Is it shorthand for "doesn't hold the same values as me?" Why not "Atheist" or something instead? Do 54% of the republicans polled even really know what it means to be Muslim? Do they think he sneaks off to pray to Mecca 5 times a day and no one has noticed yet?
Why is calling the president a 'secret Muslim' even a thing?
The subjects receive the specific question the pollster asks. They then throw that question out the window and ask themselves a different question: "How do I feel about the general topic?" If they feel positively about the topic, they give a positive response; if they feel negatively about the subject, they give a negative response. They do this even if they know their answer to be factually incorrect. They're not stating what they believe to be true; they're just expressing an emotion. This can be demonstrated by changing the poll to a quiz: offer a $5 gift certificate to Chipotle for correct answers, so the psychology switches from self-expression mode to winning-the-prize mode, and all of a sudden the responses bear a much closer resemblance to reality.
So all we're really learning from this poll is that many Republicans consider being a Muslim to be a negative trait and being a Christian to be a positive trait. Which is unfortunate, but hardly news to anyone. The odder result, to me, is that only 45% of Democrats said he was Christian. The Democratic Party may not have a fundamentalist wing, but it's still by all conventional measures a majority-Christian party. I'd expect more of them to give the correct answer here.
Something like a quarter of the democrats, the second biggest group, answered "I don't know" though and 18% said deep down he was spiritual, so its the kind of waffling I've come to expect from democrats, less so than them thinking he is something he isn't, of which only 10% (!!!) were stupid enough to say he's a Muslim.
The reality is that deep down, we can't know what his true beliefs are (outside of probably not being Muslims). Remember when, in the lifetimes of a lot of Americans, it was a big deal when a Catholic got elected to the White House? At the very least, I would assume that most Presidents at the very least fake being more religious than they really are to satisfy some idea of what the American people want.
So all we're really learning from this poll is that many Republicans consider being a Muslim to be a negative trait and being a Christian to be a positive trait. Which is unfortunate, but hardly news to anyone. The odder result, to me, is that only 45% of Democrats said he was Christian. The Democratic Party may not have a fundamentalist wing, but it's still by all conventional measures a majority-Christian party. I'd expect more of them to give the correct answer here.
I would also add that these same people consider Atheist to be worse than Muslim according to other polls.
Edit: I would also add that I don't think most Americans actually know anything about Islam, just that it scares them.
So all we're really learning from this poll is that many Republicans consider being a Muslim to be a negative trait and being a Christian to be a positive trait. Which is unfortunate, but hardly news to anyone.
Not to be provocative, but why didn't more pick 'Atheist' then? It the second least chosen of the choices, and Atheists can't even legally hold office in many republican states (and it goes without saying that's ridiculous).
Why is calling the president a 'secret Muslim' even a thing?
I make a point of reading materials by the more extreme wings of the liberal and conservative ideologies of the US from time-to-time, just for my own entertainment and to keep up with the quackery of the day. Here's the standard Glenn Beck-style argument about why Obama's a secret Muslim and why you should care (I don't endorse this argument):
Obama lived in Indonesia as a child and attended school there. By all accounts this was a Catholic school, but since Indonesia is a majority-Muslim country, the argument is that the school was run according to predominantly Muslim cultural norms and many of Obama's classmates would have been Muslim. Thus, whether he ever converted to Islam or not, he would have internalized "Muslim cultural values" from a young age. Ostensibly, this secret affinity for Islam has persisted today and shapes his foreign policy and national loyalties. He's less fond of American culture and more fond of "Muslim culture" (what is really meant is "Arab culture," ignoring the cultural differences between Indonesia and the middle east). The evidence most often cited for this is that Obama apparently "refuses" to use the term "Islamic terrorism," preferring instead just "terrorism." (Whether this claim is true I have no idea, and even if true, it seems spurious).
So, tl;dr, it's shorthand for "Obama isn't 100% loyal to America and has a secret affinity for the cultural values of ISIS et al." (Again, I don't believe this is true, I'm just elaborating on the far-right argument).
If you want to be extremely technically in an entirely superficial and meaningless way, Barack Obama *could* be considered a Muslim. Obama's father's father converted to Islam, and Islam considers itself passed patrolinearly, and some sects of Islam do not recognize "converting out". So according to those sects, Obama Sr. would still have been a Muslim after his claimed conversion to Christianity and would pass it to Obama.
But that argument is both highly questionable and requires a greater understanding of what Islam is and means that most people who actually profess that Obama is Muslim actually have.
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Something like a quarter of the democrats, the second biggest group, answered "I don't know" though and 18% said deep down he was spiritual, so its the kind of waffling I've come to expect from democrats, less so than them thinking he is something he isn't, of which only 10% (!!!) were stupid enough to say he's a Muslim.
"Only" 10%. Just goes to show that in these polls you also have to account for the "people are just answering randomly" factor. In one of my favorite poll results ever, about 3% of Americans report believing that Obama is the Antichrist... and still voting for him. And another poll would have us believe that about 10% of atheists think God created the world six thousand years ago.
At the very least, I would assume that most Presidents at the very least fake being more religious than they really are to satisfy some idea of what the American people want.
I've heard a number of secular and atheist Democrats say this about Obama, but it seems like wishful thinking to me. We can't know, of course, but recall that his presidential ambitions actually required him to ditch his church.
Not to be provocative, but why didn't more pick 'Atheist' then?
"Muslim" is the slander that has currency in the public consciousness. Nobody says he's an atheist because nobdy else is saying he's an atheist. These are knee-jerk reactions, remember; you're not gonn find much in the way of original thought.
It the second least chosen of the choices, and Atheists can't even legally hold office in many republican states (and it goes without saying that's ridiculous).
Slightly misleading claim. They're southern states (and Maryland and Pennsylvania), but the constitutional provisions to which you're referring long predate the current red-state/blue-state divide.
Slightly misleading claim. They're southern states (and Maryland and Pennsylvania), but the constitutional provisions to which you're referring long predate the current red-state/blue-state divide.
No, it doesn't. A Muslim is anyone who professes the faith, no more, no less.
I beg pardon, it appears I was confused, and further research has cleared this up. I had definitely heard the above logic applied before (in a mostly-joking sense), but apparently it's the Orthodox Jewish interpretation. In Orthodox Judaism, everything except for Jewish descent itself (which passes matrilinearly) passes via the father, including other religions, and they do not recognize converting out.
At the very least, I would assume that most Presidents at the very least fake being more religious than they really are to satisfy some idea of what the American people want.
I've heard a number of secular and atheist Democrats say this about Obama, but it seems like wishful thinking to me. We can't know, of course, but recall that his presidential ambitions actually required him to ditch his church.
Yeah, that's one of the things I was thinking. Even if they're Christian, how Christian they are and what they do is modified.
I make a point of reading materials by the more extreme wings of the liberal and conservative ideologies of the US from time-to-time, just for my own entertainment and to keep up with the quackery of the day. Here's the standard Glenn Beck-style argument about why Obama's a secret Muslim and why you should care (I don't endorse this argument):
Obama lived in Indonesia as a child and attended school there. By all accounts this was a Catholic school, but since Indonesia is a majority-Muslim country, the argument is that the school was run according to predominantly Muslim cultural norms and many of Obama's classmates would have been Muslim. Thus, whether he ever converted to Islam or not, he would have internalized "Muslim cultural values" from a young age. Ostensibly, this secret affinity for Islam has persisted today and shapes his foreign policy and national loyalties. He's less fond of American culture and more fond of "Muslim culture" (what is really meant is "Arab culture," ignoring the cultural differences between Indonesia and the middle east). The evidence most often cited for this is that Obama apparently "refuses" to use the term "Islamic terrorism," preferring instead just "terrorism." (Whether this claim is true I have no idea, and even if true, it seems spurious).
So, tl;dr, it's shorthand for "Obama isn't 100% loyal to America and has a secret affinity for the cultural values of ISIS et al." (Again, I don't believe this is true, I'm just elaborating on the far-right argument).
Yeah, you pretty much nailed it. This is the exact argument I get from people who are convinced Obama is Muslim, especially today with the rise of ISIS.
At the very least, I would assume that most Presidents at the very least fake being more religious than they really are to satisfy some idea of what the American people want.
I've heard a number of secular and atheist Democrats say this about Obama, but it seems like wishful thinking to me. We can't know, of course, but recall that his presidential ambitions actually required him to ditch his church.
You don't become a successful American politician by esteeming anything above your own ambitions. To me, that implies a certain level of pragmatic atheism.
And if the religious beliefs of other Harvard Law profs are at all representative of Obama's, the smart money would say he's an atheist. If you see yourself as God, you probably don't believe in any others.
You don't become a successful American politician by esteeming anything above your own ambitions. To me, that implies a certain level of pragmatic atheism.
Because Christians never suffer from the sin of pride?
Harvard professors dont need to worry about being elected by a majority Christian population, plenty of whom won't vote for a non-Christian, or even a non-Protestant
Statistics show statistically they're incomplete, inaccurate, black and white, and never really say anything relative about so so so so much. When will people get over numbers?
Being Christian is mandatory to be electable in the majority (vast majority) of these United States.
Thats just a fact.
Anyone who becomes President is going to do so while paying lip service, at reach around levels, towards the dominant religious group here.
What this means is that self-identification isn't going to convince everyone and "not really as religious as he pretends to be" is a much lower bar than "actually a completely different religion"
Being Christian is mandatory to be electable in the majority (vast majority) of these United States.
And?
Anyone who becomes President is going to do so while paying lip service, at reach around levels, towards the dominant religious group here.
Or, alternatively, he might actually be Christian. Weren't you just saying the majority of the nation is Christian?
What this means is that self-identification isn't going to convince everyone and "not really as religious as he pretends to be" is a much lower bar than "actually a completely different religion"
Except the topic of discussion was whether or not Obama is a different religion, or rather different religious stance, specifically atheism. So no, you're going to have to clear the higher bar in this case.
Obama says he's a Christian. Good enough for me. At the very least, I don't think you can overturn that kind of thing without substantial evidence and that's not forthcoming here. My best guess is that he's like most Christians I know. That is, being Christian is just something they say and it doesn't actually influence their lives all that much. That is consistent, IMO, with his behavior.
I'm surprised the secret Muslim idea is so widespread, since it seems like something too radical for even Fox News to push. This is really kooky stuff we're talking about here.
I'll say this, though. He's so radically soft on Islam that it's borderline preposterous. The dude will just flat out refuse to use the word Islam in a negative context. It was laugh out loud funny the way he went back a millennium in Christian history to the Crusades to get modern Islam off the hook. Or when 3 Muslims were shot (I believe killed) in a parking dispute in North Carolina, the White House press release talked about Islamophobia, even though the attacks had NOTHING to do with Islam. Meanwhile, 25 Christians are executed by radical Muslims in Egypt for religious reasons, and yet the press release about that ignored the religious motivations. Imagine JFK going out of his way to lecture the American people about how Cuba and the USSR aren't "really" communist nations, that their actions have nothing to do with communism.
Harvard professors dont need to worry about being elected by a majority Christian population, plenty of whom won't vote for a non-Christian, or even a non-Protestant
And when Obama needed to worry about being elected by a majority Christian population, that's when he ditched the church he'd been attending for years. Get your timeline right.
I'll say this, though. He's so radically soft on Islam that it's borderline preposterous. The dude will just flat out refuse to use the word Islam in a negative context. It was laugh out loud funny the way he went back a millennium in Christian history to the Crusades to get modern Islam off the hook. Or when 3 Muslims were shot (I believe killed) in a parking dispute in North Carolina, the White House press release talked about Islamophobia, even though the attacks had NOTHING to do with Islam. Meanwhile, 25 Christians are executed by radical Muslims in Egypt for religious reasons, and yet the press release about that ignored the religious motivations. Imagine JFK going out of his way to lecture the American people about how Cuba and the USSR aren't "really" communist nations, that their actions have nothing to do with communism.
When you're president, you're welcome to try fighting ISIS while (a) alienating Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and other important allies in the region by dissing their religion, and (b) playing into ISIS' recruitment propaganda by making the United States an enemy of Islam. This is just Realpolitik, dude.
Also, it's not clear what the story is behind the NC murders. You seem to be taking the word of the murderer unquestioningly, while not even knowing enough to be certain they were murders.
Harvard professors dont need to worry about being elected by a majority Christian population, plenty of whom won't vote for a non-Christian, or even a non-Protestant
And when Obama needed to worry about being elected by a majority Christian population, that's when he ditched the church he'd been attending for years. Get your timeline right.
First of all, it's reasonable to think he only ever associated with Wright in the first place because Wright was the charismatic leader of a large congregation that could provide grassroots political support in Chicago. When that became a liability rather than an asset, he left.
Second, when someone is willing to place their political aspirations above their loyalty to their church, that implies they don't really take their church and religious beliefs all that seriously.
Third, Obama was not raised religious and is highly educated. Both of these factors are strongly statistically correlated with atheism/irreligion.
I'm not purporting to say that Obama is definitely an atheist. But it would not be unreasonable for this to be true, and it's silly to assume he's definitely a Christian.
"I don't know" is the only fair answer, since nobody really knows but him.
If I'd have a to guess, I'd say he is a spiritual person at least. He could be a atheist, hiding his beliefs because he knows disclosing that information would only hurt his numbers. He could be a devout Christian as well. Hell, I really don't know. That's kind of the point.
Why is calling the president a 'secret Muslim' even a thing?
What does it even mean to say "deep down" he's a Muslim? Is it meant as an insult? Is it shorthand for "doesn't hold the same values as me?" Why not "Atheist" or something instead? Do 54% of the republicans polled even really know what it means to be Muslim? Do they think he sneaks off to pray to Mecca 5 times a day and no one has noticed yet?
Why is calling the president a 'secret Muslim' even a thing?
The subjects receive the specific question the pollster asks. They then throw that question out the window and ask themselves a different question: "How do I feel about the general topic?" If they feel positively about the topic, they give a positive response; if they feel negatively about the subject, they give a negative response. They do this even if they know their answer to be factually incorrect. They're not stating what they believe to be true; they're just expressing an emotion. This can be demonstrated by changing the poll to a quiz: offer a $5 gift certificate to Chipotle for correct answers, so the psychology switches from self-expression mode to winning-the-prize mode, and all of a sudden the responses bear a much closer resemblance to reality.
So all we're really learning from this poll is that many Republicans consider being a Muslim to be a negative trait and being a Christian to be a positive trait. Which is unfortunate, but hardly news to anyone. The odder result, to me, is that only 45% of Democrats said he was Christian. The Democratic Party may not have a fundamentalist wing, but it's still by all conventional measures a majority-Christian party. I'd expect more of them to give the correct answer here.
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I would also add that these same people consider Atheist to be worse than Muslim according to other polls.
Edit: I would also add that I don't think most Americans actually know anything about Islam, just that it scares them.
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Right.
If it's simply meant as a negative response, I would expect there to be a split between Atheist and Muslim.
I make a point of reading materials by the more extreme wings of the liberal and conservative ideologies of the US from time-to-time, just for my own entertainment and to keep up with the quackery of the day. Here's the standard Glenn Beck-style argument about why Obama's a secret Muslim and why you should care (I don't endorse this argument):
Obama lived in Indonesia as a child and attended school there. By all accounts this was a Catholic school, but since Indonesia is a majority-Muslim country, the argument is that the school was run according to predominantly Muslim cultural norms and many of Obama's classmates would have been Muslim. Thus, whether he ever converted to Islam or not, he would have internalized "Muslim cultural values" from a young age. Ostensibly, this secret affinity for Islam has persisted today and shapes his foreign policy and national loyalties. He's less fond of American culture and more fond of "Muslim culture" (what is really meant is "Arab culture," ignoring the cultural differences between Indonesia and the middle east). The evidence most often cited for this is that Obama apparently "refuses" to use the term "Islamic terrorism," preferring instead just "terrorism." (Whether this claim is true I have no idea, and even if true, it seems spurious).
So, tl;dr, it's shorthand for "Obama isn't 100% loyal to America and has a secret affinity for the cultural values of ISIS et al." (Again, I don't believe this is true, I'm just elaborating on the far-right argument).
But that argument is both highly questionable and requires a greater understanding of what Islam is and means that most people who actually profess that Obama is Muslim actually have.
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I've heard a number of secular and atheist Democrats say this about Obama, but it seems like wishful thinking to me. We can't know, of course, but recall that his presidential ambitions actually required him to ditch his church.
"Muslim" is the slander that has currency in the public consciousness. Nobody says he's an atheist because nobdy else is saying he's an atheist. These are knee-jerk reactions, remember; you're not gonn find much in the way of original thought.
Slightly misleading claim. They're southern states (and Maryland and Pennsylvania), but the constitutional provisions to which you're referring long predate the current red-state/blue-state divide.
No, it doesn't. A Muslim is anyone who professes the faith, no more, no less.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
I beg pardon, it appears I was confused, and further research has cleared this up. I had definitely heard the above logic applied before (in a mostly-joking sense), but apparently it's the Orthodox Jewish interpretation. In Orthodox Judaism, everything except for Jewish descent itself (which passes matrilinearly) passes via the father, including other religions, and they do not recognize converting out.
Source: http://www.thejewishweek.com/blogs/route_17/yes_obama_muslim_non_halachic_standards_and_lenny_bruce (this article then goes on into more insane ramblings about how Obama is of a Muslim mindset because of his upbringing, but the first few paragraphs cover what I'm talking about)
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Yeah, that's one of the things I was thinking. Even if they're Christian, how Christian they are and what they do is modified.
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Yeah, you pretty much nailed it. This is the exact argument I get from people who are convinced Obama is Muslim, especially today with the rise of ISIS.
Not that it matters, but my understanding was that this was the case.
As to Obama being Muslim, as Blinking mentioned, there was the whole Reverend Jeremiah Wright scandal.
You don't become a successful American politician by esteeming anything above your own ambitions. To me, that implies a certain level of pragmatic atheism.
And if the religious beliefs of other Harvard Law profs are at all representative of Obama's, the smart money would say he's an atheist. If you see yourself as God, you probably don't believe in any others.
Most Harvard profs practice their atheism by not being congregants of the United Church of Christ.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Obama has proclaimed himself Christian. Do we have any reason to think he is not a Christian? No. There are zero valid reasons to think he is not.
And no, "Well he would say that if there WERE a conspiracy, so there must be!" is not a valid reason, just like it hasn't been ever.
Thats just a fact.
Anyone who becomes President is going to do so while paying lip service, at reach around levels, towards the dominant religious group here.
What this means is that self-identification isn't going to convince everyone and "not really as religious as he pretends to be" is a much lower bar than "actually a completely different religion"
Or, alternatively, he might actually be Christian. Weren't you just saying the majority of the nation is Christian?
Except the topic of discussion was whether or not Obama is a different religion, or rather different religious stance, specifically atheism. So no, you're going to have to clear the higher bar in this case.
I'm surprised the secret Muslim idea is so widespread, since it seems like something too radical for even Fox News to push. This is really kooky stuff we're talking about here.
I'll say this, though. He's so radically soft on Islam that it's borderline preposterous. The dude will just flat out refuse to use the word Islam in a negative context. It was laugh out loud funny the way he went back a millennium in Christian history to the Crusades to get modern Islam off the hook. Or when 3 Muslims were shot (I believe killed) in a parking dispute in North Carolina, the White House press release talked about Islamophobia, even though the attacks had NOTHING to do with Islam. Meanwhile, 25 Christians are executed by radical Muslims in Egypt for religious reasons, and yet the press release about that ignored the religious motivations. Imagine JFK going out of his way to lecture the American people about how Cuba and the USSR aren't "really" communist nations, that their actions have nothing to do with communism.
Highroller seems to think I'm advocating a fringe viewpoint for some reason as opposed to explaining why its compelling for some people /shrug
When you're president, you're welcome to try fighting ISIS while (a) alienating Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and other important allies in the region by dissing their religion, and (b) playing into ISIS' recruitment propaganda by making the United States an enemy of Islam. This is just Realpolitik, dude.
Also, it's not clear what the story is behind the NC murders. You seem to be taking the word of the murderer unquestioningly, while not even knowing enough to be certain they were murders.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
First of all, it's reasonable to think he only ever associated with Wright in the first place because Wright was the charismatic leader of a large congregation that could provide grassroots political support in Chicago. When that became a liability rather than an asset, he left.
Second, when someone is willing to place their political aspirations above their loyalty to their church, that implies they don't really take their church and religious beliefs all that seriously.
Third, Obama was not raised religious and is highly educated. Both of these factors are strongly statistically correlated with atheism/irreligion.
I'm not purporting to say that Obama is definitely an atheist. But it would not be unreasonable for this to be true, and it's silly to assume he's definitely a Christian.
If I'd have a to guess, I'd say he is a spiritual person at least. He could be a atheist, hiding his beliefs because he knows disclosing that information would only hurt his numbers. He could be a devout Christian as well. Hell, I really don't know. That's kind of the point.
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