I don't know what you're talking about but I'm talking specifically about how minimum wage is calculated. That's a matter of government policy and is therefore up for debate.
Q: What's the purpose of minimum wage policy?
A: Ensuring that workers receive a certain amount of money.
Q: Do waiters receive this amount of money?
A: Yes.
End of debate.
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Q: Do waiters receive this amount of money?
A: Yes.
End of debate.
How would you know that? If I did not mishear the video or misread the information provided, you can pay below minimum while assuming that the difference will be provided through tips. If that is true or not only the waiters really know. Apparently, only 60% of tips are even reported, which seems quite high to me.
So "this certain amount of money" isn't really cerain at all, except in some states of course.
Edit: Just read in some of the Youtube comments that the employer has to make up the difference him/herself if not a lot of tips were made. Looked it up and it should probaby be true. The video is kinda misleading then.
I'm not seeing any strong justifications here for banning tipping.
The minimum wage requirement is a related but ultimately separate issue.
The fact is, if you don't want to leave a tip, you don't have to. You might earn the ire of the food workers. It might be exceedingly crummy and you might even get your food spit into (a separate tort),
but it is within the discretion of the customer. Because it is discretionary, failing to tip is not enforced not by the law, but by societal expectations, politeness, and decency.
What's the argument here? We should ban tipping because I look like a douche when I don't tip? Looking like a douchebag is not illegal.
But TomCat26. You just try going into a restaurant, eating and not paying a tip. See what happens. You'll get banned and kicked out. They'll spit in your food, and get REALLY upset at you.
-> So what you're saying is that if you don't tip you will look REALLY DOUCHEY. So be it, the law is not there to protect you from looking like a douche. But the establishment cannot use the power of the law to compel your tip can they? They have no remedy at law. Their remedy is societal norms, harsh as that is.
What about failure to pay minimum wage? You can rewrite the minimum wage laws to specifically exclude tips. Workers have the option to leave employment.
What about automatic 18% gratuities? You have the right not to frequent such restaurants.
What about the fact that some restaurants include tips into min wage anyway? That's a violation of the law then. Fine that establishment.
Don't use the heavy hand of the law to legally preclude people from an activity.
You really want to take a light hand when it comes to pushing government for laws telling people they categorically cannot perform an activity. Frankly I think that's the better value to uphold.
I agree largely with the above.
(1) Tips being included in minimum wage is moronic, and the law should be re-written to avoid it being legal
(2) making tipping illegal is also largely mornoic.
Although I do think "automatic 18% gratuties" or similar should be illegal (unless it is pre-added in to the price in which case it is just the price and how you the business owner choose to distribute it is none of my business). The price of a thing should be the price you have advertised. It should include everything, especially all applicable taxes (as a tourist in america, not doing this makes it REALLY difficult to complete a purchase without feeling like you are being ripped off. And you are basically the only western country that doesn't include tax in the menu/sticker price). Your menu should include every damn thing that is the cost of what you are purchasing.
(1) Tips being included in minimum wage is moronic, and the law should be re-written to avoid it being legal
Why? I mean, I can see advantages to both approaches, but I certainly don't see the kind of difference that would make one a good idea and the other "moronic." As B_S said, if the purpose of a minimum wage is to "[e]nsur[e] that workers receive a certain amount of money" then including tips in the minimum accomplishes this goal.
I worked as a server for a year during college. I was not the best as I had to write down everything and was quite frantic. Due to lack of knowledge and a slowing business (went bankrupt a few months after I quit), I had to be compensated the difference so my hourly wage plus tip equaled minimum wage. There was no incentive to perform at a higher quality because I would just get paid the same.
Had to create an account after multiple years of lurking so i could answer to this non-magic related debate.
As a french immigrant to Canada, i've lived and worked in both systems : with and without mandatory tips.
Saying that tipping brings better service is a lie, service is roughly the same all around the world, and as tipping is social mandatory, it is not an incentive at all for employees to work better. They feel that you owe them the tip, no matter what, and back themselves with the fact they get paid lower than minimum wages.
Saying that this is how it is and therefore shouldnt change is the most moronic claim ever. With that mentality, the US would still be a british colony making use of slaves (and yes, i could have gone further or used many other examples).
The parallel with the tie is more interesting as historically, the tie is the evolution of the scarf, winch was used by the wealthiest part of the population as a sign of wealth and became a trendy accessory and later on evolved to the tie with still that social meaning tien to it.
Let's look back at why we tip in north america. Back a hundred years ago, tipping was banned in the US, as it was considered bribery and seen as non american (as it was impeding people to get served with equal celerity). With the prohibition, food industry income went down and owners made a deal with the waiting staff : keeping them but they would have to get part of their salary from the patrons.
Tipping comes from specific backgroud and this is why it is only predominant in North America.
As a customer, i feel tipping is unfair. Not only it is really annoying to make the maths for it, preventing me from being able to plan a night out on a tight budget, but it is also unfair to people working in the food industry. As a customer, i go to a restaurant mainly for the food, and i know it's why most people go to specific places. The chef is the one responsible of having the restaurant full or empty. Nonetheless, the waiters usually are the ones reaping the profits from how good the cook is. Nowadays, an average waiter in Montreal makes 600-1000 $ a week just in tips, and an average chef gets a grand per week, nothing more. In which world is it fair ?
Tipping shouldnt be banned, as it is a good way to reward a better service quality, but waiting staff salary should be normal (minimum wages or highter) and tipping should just be a really otpional reward.
Saying that tipping brings better service is a lie, service is roughly the same all around the world, and as tipping is social mandatory, it is not an incentive at all for employees to work better.
This isn't remotely true. You're from France, yes? You can't tell me the service in French restaurants and cafes is anything close to US service. The servers basically ignore you. If you want to order, you need to flag down a server. If you want the bill, you need to flag down a server. Any kind of special request? The server is going to roll their eyes at you and do it if/when they feel like it. I've been to several different places in France and probably eaten at 15-20 restaurants (including nice ones) and the experience was always like this.
Admittedly, French people seem to prefer this. Most French people tell me they find it weird and invasive to have a server checking on you or bring the bill without asking. But if you want more attentive service, tipping tends to facilitate that.
The only non-tipping countries where I've received US level service are developing countries like Nepal and India. This is presumably because jobs and money are so scarce, and because I was only eating at the very best restaurants (which are absurdly cheap by US standards).
Saying that this is how it is and therefore shouldnt change is the most moronic claim ever. With that mentality, the US would still be a british colony making use of slaves (and yes, i could have gone further or used many other examples).
No one is saying we should just never change anything. People are saying "it's not worth making a change unless you're fixing an actual problem or getting an actual benefit from the change."
This isn't remotely true. You're from France, yes? You can't tell me the service in French restaurants and cafes is anything close to US service. The servers basically ignore you. If you want to order, you need to flag down a server. If you want the bill, you need to flag down a server. Any kind of special request? The server is going to roll their eyes at you and do it if/when they feel like it. I've been to several different places in France and probably eaten at 15-20 restaurants (including nice ones) and the experience was always like this.
I wasnt talking about France only, as i've also live in New zealand for about a year and in south america for three years. I'm not taking into account any of my traveling experience though.
I think being a tourist makes things a little blurry when it comes to service industry as you usually go to more touristic places and have a tendency to go to (relatively to the average joe in that country) more expensive restaurants.
Waiter in Paris are well known for being rude, even in France. No speaking the language only make things worse (not sure if it was your case but just dropping it there for later).
Flagging the waiter is absolutely normal though. It comes from the difference between Europe and Americas when i comes to the meal. Meals in france are more of an occasion to talk or do business (thus our longer meals), so having a waiter snooping around forces you to pause your conversation every times he/she comes around. No coming at your table every 10 minutes actually the polite thing for them to do. If you wait 10 mins after signaling you want something, though, then it's bad service.
Special requests should be one of the reasons to tip, though, so if they dont want to do it, no tips, if they do, people would generally tip.
But you are right, i should have said it this way : from my experience and taking into account local culture, service is roughly the same everywhere.
It should include everything, especially all applicable taxes (as a tourist in america, not doing this makes it REALLY difficult to complete a purchase without feeling like you are being ripped off. And you are basically the only western country that doesn't include tax in the menu/sticker price). Your menu should include every damn thing that is the cost of what you are purchasing.
Yeah, we don't like it either. We're used to it, so we don't get surprised and burned by it like visitors do, but it's still dumb. Especially since in many states the sales tax is something weird and hard to calculate in your head like 6.5%. Occasionally you'll go into a mom-and-pop store and find that they've included the sales tax in the sticker price, but the unfortunate truth is that this puts them at a competitive disadvantage against businesses that advertise lower prices - even if you know there's a sales tax, seeing a lower number still tricks the stupid part of your brain and makes you feel better about buying. Same deal as with all the "$X.99" prices.
On the particular subject of automatic 18% gratuities, however, that's almost always "for parties of eight or more", so you can't exactly just include it in the menu price.
Admittedly, French people seem to prefer this. Most French people tell me they find it weird and invasive to have a server checking on you or bring the bill without asking.
I get the same report from my German friends. The bill, in particular, is read as a message "Get out of here". It's definitely just a cultural thing, not "better" or "worse" service.
Places which impose an 18% gratuity usually tell you somewhere (in small writing unfortunately).
Ex. Parties of 6 or more will have an automatic 18% gratuity included. In my opinion, that's actually a good reason to avoid such a place.
I went with a party of 10. The service was atrocious and there was no option not to tip in response to that because it had already been included in the bill.
It should include everything, especially all applicable taxes (as a tourist in america, not doing this makes it REALLY difficult to complete a purchase without feeling like you are being ripped off. And you are basically the only western country that doesn't include tax in the menu/sticker price). Your menu should include every damn thing that is the cost of what you are purchasing.
Yeah, we don't like it either. We're used to it, so we don't get surprised and burned by it like visitors do, but it's still dumb. Especially since in many states the sales tax is something weird and hard to calculate in your head like 6.5%. Occasionally you'll go into a mom-and-pop store and find that they've included the sales tax in the sticker price, but the unfortunate truth is that this puts them at a competitive disadvantage against businesses that advertise lower prices - even if you know there's a sales tax, seeing a lower number still tricks the stupid part of your brain and makes you feel better about buying. Same deal as with all the "$X.99" prices.
On the particular subject of automatic 18% gratuities, however, that's almost always "for parties of eight or more", so you can't exactly just include it in the menu price.
Admittedly, French people seem to prefer this. Most French people tell me they find it weird and invasive to have a server checking on you or bring the bill without asking.
I get the same report from my German friends. The bill, in particular, is read as a message "Get out of here". It's definitely just a cultural thing, not "better" or "worse" service.
I tend to agree (and am from Australia). While waiters here could be somewhat more attentive, the amount of attention you get from staff in the US is kind of creepy. And yes, if you are in Europe (at least the parts I have been) and the staff bring you the bill they are telling you in no uncertain terms that they want you to leave. The same is true to a lesser extent here.
It should include everything, especially all applicable taxes (as a tourist in america, not doing this makes it REALLY difficult to complete a purchase without feeling like you are being ripped off. And you are basically the only western country that doesn't include tax in the menu/sticker price). Your menu should include every damn thing that is the cost of what you are purchasing.
Yeah, we don't like it either. We're used to it, so we don't get surprised and burned by it like visitors do, but it's still dumb. Especially since in many states the sales tax is something weird and hard to calculate in your head like 6.5%. Occasionally you'll go into a mom-and-pop store and find that they've included the sales tax in the sticker price, but the unfortunate truth is that this puts them at a competitive disadvantage against businesses that advertise lower prices - even if you know there's a sales tax, seeing a lower number still tricks the stupid part of your brain and makes you feel better about buying. Same deal as with all the "$X.99" prices.
On the particular subject of automatic 18% gratuities, however, that's almost always "for parties of eight or more", so you can't exactly just include it in the menu price.
Admittedly, French people seem to prefer this. Most French people tell me they find it weird and invasive to have a server checking on you or bring the bill without asking.
I get the same report from my German friends. The bill, in particular, is read as a message "Get out of here". It's definitely just a cultural thing, not "better" or "worse" service.
I tend to agree (and am from Australia). While waiters here could be somewhat more attentive, the amount of attention you get from staff in the US is kind of creepy. And yes, if you are in Europe (at least the parts I have been) and the staff bring you the bill they are telling you in no uncertain terms that they want you to leave. The same is true to a lesser extent here.
It's whatever you're used to. I hate having to interrupt my meal or my conversation to get a waiter's attention. I understand why people would feel differently. So we can chalk this up to cultural differences.
That said: (1) US culture tends to like attentive waiters, and tipping encourages that. So tipping is well-suited to US cultural expectations. (2) The service is also just worse in places like Europe, attentiveness aside (I can't speak to Australia since I've never been). France has always been the worst in my experience, which is why I'm picking on them. In France, for example, if you have a special request of any kind, it's likely to be ignored or for the waiter to do it whenever he happens to feel like it. In the alps, my fondue burner goes out and it takes about 20 minutes and repeated requests before they relight it. At a bar in Paris, I ask for a refill of my small nut dish and it takes, again, like 15-20 minutes and multiple requests. I had already ordered multiple drinks so it's not like I was just trying to eat a bunch of free nuts, either. This would never happen in the US, because ~20% of the bill is on the line.
And to be clear, I'm aware how hard it is to be a waiter. I'm not someone who has unreasonable expectations, and I'm very willing to forgive this kind of stuff especially when it's a busy night or they're short staffed. However, that was not the case in my examples. The kind of service I was consistently getting in France would have caused me to leave a $0 tip if I was in the US (and I can't remember the last time I didn't tip, it's been years).
It's whatever you're used to. I hate having to interrupt my meal or my conversation to get a waiter's attention. I understand why people would feel differently. So we can chalk this up to cultural differences.
Interessting point of view. It's interrupting for you to get a waiter's attention, but incidentally not when said waiter forces his/her attentiveness onto you?
Cultural difference for sure! To me, an attentive waiter notices when a customer might want something and then acts, not just because protocoll dictates. Do you maybe watch South Park? If so, do you remember the episodes in which Cartman gives speeches and holds rallies in some sort of airport restaurant hall? The "attentive" guy checking up on him all the time is exactly the kind of waiter/manager who would bug the sh+t out of me! At least when I have to flag down a waiter, I dictate the time of interruption, not the other way round.
The examples you brought are really terrible, sorry for your experience! Heard similar stories from friends too, it always is kinda worse when you don't speak good! French. Hope you don't think all of Europe is like that.
@Cultural Expectations: According to some meager management knowledge I have and stories I read, including here, a waiter who expects to get tips because "it's just what you do" doesn't really have that high of an incentive to be extra special to you. Especially when some of you say you still tip a bit when the service was barely passing
In my own experience, I got tipped quite well due to my subtle flirting, especially with older ladies There certainly were faster waiters and waitresses, but I noticed that being a little engaging and personal with customers can go quite far in terms of tips. Now I don't know if that is "being a good waiter" is, but it never really hurt.
I believe that tipping should definitely not be banned, because it is well established in society as a reward for good service. However, I believe that it also should not be mandatory, or otherwise, it is not a tip; it is simply part of the normal bill. A person should have the option of giving a tip, and if that person believe that they have been given poor service, then have every right to not give their server a tip (which is unfortunate for the server, but, hopefully, it shall help them to learn to provide better service in the future).
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“Those who would trade their freedoms for security will have neither.”-Benjamin Franklin
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
I believe that tipping should definitely not be banned, because it is well established in society as a reward for good service. However, I believe that it also should not be mandatory, or otherwise, it is not a tip; it is simply part of the normal bill. A person should have the option of giving a tip, and if that person believe that they have been given poor service, then have every right to not give their server a tip (which is unfortunate for the server, but, hopefully, it shall help them to learn to provide better service in the future).
That is the way it is.... You are not legally obligated to provide a tip. You are socially obligated to provide a tip (unless you can justify not giving one with reasons like the service being terrible).
The "attentive" guy checking up on him all the time is exactly the kind of waiter/manager who would bug the sh+t out of me! At least when I have to flag down a waiter, I dictate the time of interruption, not the other way round.
Sure, this guy is a caricature. A good waiter would wait for a pause in the conversation, for example, and try not to interrupt. I guess by "attentive" I mean available and responsive. Once you finish a plate of food, it's taken away pretty much immediately without you asking. If you order a drink it comes out in a short period of time, and they come ask if you want another when you're finished. That kind of thing.
Again, differences in cultural expectations, but no one wants an obnoxious guy like the South Park hotel manager character.
The examples you brought are really terrible, sorry for your experience! Heard similar stories from friends too, it always is kinda worse when you don't speak good! French. Hope you don't think all of Europe is like that.
Those are just the worst examples, and I've traveled enough to know it's not that way everywhere in Europe or even everywhere in France. The difference is that these kinds of places just couldn't exist in the US. The waiters would be fired for not bringing in tips. Maybe just 10-20% of waiters are bad at their job, but the tip system is like a screen that quickly filters these people out.
@Cultural Expectations: According to some meager management knowledge I have and stories I read, including here, a waiter who expects to get tips because "it's just what you do" doesn't really have that high of an incentive to be extra special to you. Especially when some of you say you still tip a bit when the service was barely passing
The service has to be actively bad before I'm thinking about declining the tip altogether, but "barely passing" service will certainly get a lower tip than good service. Even if we're in a situation where every waiter basically ends up getting paid the same, the business owner can see the tips, and the owner knows how much he or she is having to pay each server to cover the gap between tips and the wage.
This is like a customer voting system. Waiters with high tips are costing the owner much less money. Waiters with low tips are expensive to pay. So the owner is much more likely to fire the waiters with low tips, or at least have a talk with them about how they can improve their service.
That is the way it is.... You are not legally obligated to provide a tip. You are socially obligated to provide a tip (unless you can justify not giving one with reasons like the service being terrible).
Yes, that is exactly what I said, above.
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“Those who would trade their freedoms for security will have neither.”-Benjamin Franklin
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
For almost all restaurants I go to, I have really low expectations from my waiters. They bring me my menu, take my orders, bring me my food and bring me my bill. Those are the only four times I want to see them. I'm not there to chitchat or make friends with my waiter, I'm just there to eat and leave. As long as they meet that minimum standard, I tip them whatever is the standard for a restaurant of that quality. Which is one of the reasons I really hate tipping culture. It's like I'm paying for extra service I don't want. I'll tip, but I always see it as an additional cost to eating out than a reward for waiter service.
Even the biggest restaurant pet peeve for a lot of people, bad food or slow food delivery, has less to do with the waiters than with the kitchen.
I judge the whole restaurant as an entire unit. If they cannot maintain the discipline to delivery a bare minimum quality of service, it is not my job to use tips to elevate that service. I simply go to another restaurant. I tip because it's the cultural expectation, not a waiter reward.
For almost all restaurants I go to, I have really low expectations from my waiters. They bring me my menu, take my orders, bring me my food and bring me my bill. Those are the only four times I want to see them. I'm not there to chitchat or make friends with my waiter, I'm just there to eat and leave. As long as they meet that minimum standard, I tip them whatever is the standard for a restaurant of that quality. Which is one of the reasons I really hate tipping culture. It's like I'm paying for extra service I don't want. I'll tip, but I always see it as an additional cost to eating out than a reward for waiter service.
Even the biggest restaurant pet peeve for a lot of people, bad food or slow food delivery, has less to do with the waiters than with the kitchen.
I judge the whole restaurant as an entire unit. If they cannot maintain the discipline to delivery a bare minimum quality of service, it is not my job to use tips to elevate that service. I simply go to another restaurant. I tip because it's the cultural expectation, not a waiter reward.
If we abolished tipping, the price of food at restaurants would increase to cover the increased waiter salary. We should expect menu prices to rise by about 15-20% (whatever the average tip is). We can observe this in places that don't have a tipping culture. The menu price is correspondingly higher.
So you're not "paying for extra service [you] don't want," since you'd be paying roughly the same amount either way. The difference is whether that last ~20% is under your control or mandatory.
For almost all restaurants I go to, I have really low expectations from my waiters. They bring me my menu, take my orders, bring me my food and bring me my bill. Those are the only four times I want to see them. I'm not there to chitchat or make friends with my waiter, I'm just there to eat and leave. As long as they meet that minimum standard, I tip them whatever is the standard for a restaurant of that quality. Which is one of the reasons I really hate tipping culture. It's like I'm paying for extra service I don't want. I'll tip, but I always see it as an additional cost to eating out than a reward for waiter service.
Even the biggest restaurant pet peeve for a lot of people, bad food or slow food delivery, has less to do with the waiters than with the kitchen.
I judge the whole restaurant as an entire unit. If they cannot maintain the discipline to delivery a bare minimum quality of service, it is not my job to use tips to elevate that service. I simply go to another restaurant. I tip because it's the cultural expectation, not a waiter reward.
If we abolished tipping, the price of food at restaurants would increase to cover the increased waiter salary. We should expect menu prices to rise by about 15-20% (whatever the average tip is). We can observe this in places that don't have a tipping culture. The menu price is correspondingly higher.
So you're not "paying for extra service [you] don't want," since you'd be paying roughly the same amount either way. The difference is whether that last ~20% is under your control or mandatory.
And I have no problem with that. I have no problem with paying costs if they're up front and honest about it. I am well aware that when I go to a restaurant that I'm supporting the business and their workers. I just don't like this imaginary "You're paying for better service" rationale that some people uses to hide the additional costs. It feels too much like those phone plans where the additional hidden fees ends up more than the actual advertised plan prices.
By being a bad tipper, am I screwing over the employees or the establishment?
It depends... if the employee would normally make over minimum wage with tips you are screwing over the employee. If the employee would normally make under minimum wage you are screwing over the business and potentially the employee if the business decided to fire them.
For almost all restaurants I go to, I have really low expectations from my waiters. They bring me my menu, take my orders, bring me my food and bring me my bill. Those are the only four times I want to see them. I'm not there to chitchat or make friends with my waiter, I'm just there to eat and leave. As long as they meet that minimum standard, I tip them whatever is the standard for a restaurant of that quality. Which is one of the reasons I really hate tipping culture. It's like I'm paying for extra service I don't want. I'll tip, but I always see it as an additional cost to eating out than a reward for waiter service.
Even the biggest restaurant pet peeve for a lot of people, bad food or slow food delivery, has less to do with the waiters than with the kitchen.
I judge the whole restaurant as an entire unit. If they cannot maintain the discipline to delivery a bare minimum quality of service, it is not my job to use tips to elevate that service. I simply go to another restaurant. I tip because it's the cultural expectation, not a waiter reward.
If we abolished tipping, the price of food at restaurants would increase to cover the increased waiter salary. We should expect menu prices to rise by about 15-20% (whatever the average tip is). We can observe this in places that don't have a tipping culture. The menu price is correspondingly higher.
So you're not "paying for extra service [you] don't want," since you'd be paying roughly the same amount either way. The difference is whether that last ~20% is under your control or mandatory.
And I have no problem with that. I have no problem with paying costs if they're up front and honest about it. I am well aware that when I go to a restaurant that I'm supporting the business and their workers. I just don't like this imaginary "You're paying for better service" rationale that some people uses to hide the additional costs. It feels too much like those phone plans where the additional hidden fees ends up more than the actual advertised plan prices.
With a cell bill, the fees are truly "hidden" in that you have to dig deep into the contract to find out about them. A normal person isn't going to be expecting these fees.
Tipping is not hidden because you know well in advance that you'll be adding ~20% to the bill at the end of the meal. There's nothing unclear about it.
And if you read some of my posts above, there's a pretty solid argument that tipping does lead to better service. But even if it doesn't, who cares. You're paying the same price either way.
Are you complaining about having to do the math? Everyone has a calculator in their pocket these days.
Oh yeah, screw this $19.99 BS. It's $20.
Sure, but what harm is there if the business wants to mark their price down by a penny?
Y'all should carefully read this series of articles.
I stopped reading at this:
"Other operators in town, fully aware of how tips poison restaurants, knew we were enjoying an edge. Some of our colleagues resented this, and lashed out in some ways, including that of telling local journalists and bloggers that we were lying about the food we were serving. I assume that this is because those restaurants couldn’t serve the kind of food we did and still take tips, because tips are so wasteful."
It was plainly obvious that I wasn't going to get any valuable observations out if it.
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A: Ensuring that workers receive a certain amount of money.
Q: Do waiters receive this amount of money?
A: Yes.
End of debate.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
How would you know that? If I did not mishear the video or misread the information provided, you can pay below minimum while assuming that the difference will be provided through tips. If that is true or not only the waiters really know. Apparently, only 60% of tips are even reported, which seems quite high to me.
So "this certain amount of money" isn't really cerain at all, except in some states of course.
Edit: Just read in some of the Youtube comments that the employer has to make up the difference him/herself if not a lot of tips were made. Looked it up and it should probaby be true. The video is kinda misleading then.
I agree largely with the above.
(1) Tips being included in minimum wage is moronic, and the law should be re-written to avoid it being legal
(2) making tipping illegal is also largely mornoic.
Although I do think "automatic 18% gratuties" or similar should be illegal (unless it is pre-added in to the price in which case it is just the price and how you the business owner choose to distribute it is none of my business). The price of a thing should be the price you have advertised. It should include everything, especially all applicable taxes (as a tourist in america, not doing this makes it REALLY difficult to complete a purchase without feeling like you are being ripped off. And you are basically the only western country that doesn't include tax in the menu/sticker price). Your menu should include every damn thing that is the cost of what you are purchasing.
Why? I mean, I can see advantages to both approaches, but I certainly don't see the kind of difference that would make one a good idea and the other "moronic." As B_S said, if the purpose of a minimum wage is to "[e]nsur[e] that workers receive a certain amount of money" then including tips in the minimum accomplishes this goal.
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As a french immigrant to Canada, i've lived and worked in both systems : with and without mandatory tips.
Saying that tipping brings better service is a lie, service is roughly the same all around the world, and as tipping is social mandatory, it is not an incentive at all for employees to work better. They feel that you owe them the tip, no matter what, and back themselves with the fact they get paid lower than minimum wages.
Saying that this is how it is and therefore shouldnt change is the most moronic claim ever. With that mentality, the US would still be a british colony making use of slaves (and yes, i could have gone further or used many other examples).
The parallel with the tie is more interesting as historically, the tie is the evolution of the scarf, winch was used by the wealthiest part of the population as a sign of wealth and became a trendy accessory and later on evolved to the tie with still that social meaning tien to it.
Let's look back at why we tip in north america. Back a hundred years ago, tipping was banned in the US, as it was considered bribery and seen as non american (as it was impeding people to get served with equal celerity). With the prohibition, food industry income went down and owners made a deal with the waiting staff : keeping them but they would have to get part of their salary from the patrons.
Tipping comes from specific backgroud and this is why it is only predominant in North America.
As a customer, i feel tipping is unfair. Not only it is really annoying to make the maths for it, preventing me from being able to plan a night out on a tight budget, but it is also unfair to people working in the food industry. As a customer, i go to a restaurant mainly for the food, and i know it's why most people go to specific places. The chef is the one responsible of having the restaurant full or empty. Nonetheless, the waiters usually are the ones reaping the profits from how good the cook is. Nowadays, an average waiter in Montreal makes 600-1000 $ a week just in tips, and an average chef gets a grand per week, nothing more. In which world is it fair ?
Tipping shouldnt be banned, as it is a good way to reward a better service quality, but waiting staff salary should be normal (minimum wages or highter) and tipping should just be a really otpional reward.
This isn't remotely true. You're from France, yes? You can't tell me the service in French restaurants and cafes is anything close to US service. The servers basically ignore you. If you want to order, you need to flag down a server. If you want the bill, you need to flag down a server. Any kind of special request? The server is going to roll their eyes at you and do it if/when they feel like it. I've been to several different places in France and probably eaten at 15-20 restaurants (including nice ones) and the experience was always like this.
Admittedly, French people seem to prefer this. Most French people tell me they find it weird and invasive to have a server checking on you or bring the bill without asking. But if you want more attentive service, tipping tends to facilitate that.
The only non-tipping countries where I've received US level service are developing countries like Nepal and India. This is presumably because jobs and money are so scarce, and because I was only eating at the very best restaurants (which are absurdly cheap by US standards).
No one is saying we should just never change anything. People are saying "it's not worth making a change unless you're fixing an actual problem or getting an actual benefit from the change."
I wasnt talking about France only, as i've also live in New zealand for about a year and in south america for three years. I'm not taking into account any of my traveling experience though.
I think being a tourist makes things a little blurry when it comes to service industry as you usually go to more touristic places and have a tendency to go to (relatively to the average joe in that country) more expensive restaurants.
Waiter in Paris are well known for being rude, even in France. No speaking the language only make things worse (not sure if it was your case but just dropping it there for later).
Flagging the waiter is absolutely normal though. It comes from the difference between Europe and Americas when i comes to the meal. Meals in france are more of an occasion to talk or do business (thus our longer meals), so having a waiter snooping around forces you to pause your conversation every times he/she comes around. No coming at your table every 10 minutes actually the polite thing for them to do. If you wait 10 mins after signaling you want something, though, then it's bad service.
Special requests should be one of the reasons to tip, though, so if they dont want to do it, no tips, if they do, people would generally tip.
But you are right, i should have said it this way : from my experience and taking into account local culture, service is roughly the same everywhere.
On the particular subject of automatic 18% gratuities, however, that's almost always "for parties of eight or more", so you can't exactly just include it in the menu price.
I get the same report from my German friends. The bill, in particular, is read as a message "Get out of here". It's definitely just a cultural thing, not "better" or "worse" service.
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Ex. Parties of 6 or more will have an automatic 18% gratuity included. In my opinion, that's actually a good reason to avoid such a place.
I went with a party of 10. The service was atrocious and there was no option not to tip in response to that because it had already been included in the bill.
I tend to agree (and am from Australia). While waiters here could be somewhat more attentive, the amount of attention you get from staff in the US is kind of creepy. And yes, if you are in Europe (at least the parts I have been) and the staff bring you the bill they are telling you in no uncertain terms that they want you to leave. The same is true to a lesser extent here.
It's whatever you're used to. I hate having to interrupt my meal or my conversation to get a waiter's attention. I understand why people would feel differently. So we can chalk this up to cultural differences.
That said: (1) US culture tends to like attentive waiters, and tipping encourages that. So tipping is well-suited to US cultural expectations. (2) The service is also just worse in places like Europe, attentiveness aside (I can't speak to Australia since I've never been). France has always been the worst in my experience, which is why I'm picking on them. In France, for example, if you have a special request of any kind, it's likely to be ignored or for the waiter to do it whenever he happens to feel like it. In the alps, my fondue burner goes out and it takes about 20 minutes and repeated requests before they relight it. At a bar in Paris, I ask for a refill of my small nut dish and it takes, again, like 15-20 minutes and multiple requests. I had already ordered multiple drinks so it's not like I was just trying to eat a bunch of free nuts, either. This would never happen in the US, because ~20% of the bill is on the line.
And to be clear, I'm aware how hard it is to be a waiter. I'm not someone who has unreasonable expectations, and I'm very willing to forgive this kind of stuff especially when it's a busy night or they're short staffed. However, that was not the case in my examples. The kind of service I was consistently getting in France would have caused me to leave a $0 tip if I was in the US (and I can't remember the last time I didn't tip, it's been years).
Interessting point of view. It's interrupting for you to get a waiter's attention, but incidentally not when said waiter forces his/her attentiveness onto you?
Cultural difference for sure! To me, an attentive waiter notices when a customer might want something and then acts, not just because protocoll dictates. Do you maybe watch South Park? If so, do you remember the episodes in which Cartman gives speeches and holds rallies in some sort of airport restaurant hall? The "attentive" guy checking up on him all the time is exactly the kind of waiter/manager who would bug the sh+t out of me! At least when I have to flag down a waiter, I dictate the time of interruption, not the other way round.
The examples you brought are really terrible, sorry for your experience! Heard similar stories from friends too, it always is kinda worse when you don't speak good! French. Hope you don't think all of Europe is like that.
@Cultural Expectations: According to some meager management knowledge I have and stories I read, including here, a waiter who expects to get tips because "it's just what you do" doesn't really have that high of an incentive to be extra special to you. Especially when some of you say you still tip a bit when the service was barely passing
In my own experience, I got tipped quite well due to my subtle flirting, especially with older ladies There certainly were faster waiters and waitresses, but I noticed that being a little engaging and personal with customers can go quite far in terms of tips. Now I don't know if that is "being a good waiter" is, but it never really hurt.
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That is the way it is.... You are not legally obligated to provide a tip. You are socially obligated to provide a tip (unless you can justify not giving one with reasons like the service being terrible).
Sure, this guy is a caricature. A good waiter would wait for a pause in the conversation, for example, and try not to interrupt. I guess by "attentive" I mean available and responsive. Once you finish a plate of food, it's taken away pretty much immediately without you asking. If you order a drink it comes out in a short period of time, and they come ask if you want another when you're finished. That kind of thing.
Again, differences in cultural expectations, but no one wants an obnoxious guy like the South Park hotel manager character.
Those are just the worst examples, and I've traveled enough to know it's not that way everywhere in Europe or even everywhere in France. The difference is that these kinds of places just couldn't exist in the US. The waiters would be fired for not bringing in tips. Maybe just 10-20% of waiters are bad at their job, but the tip system is like a screen that quickly filters these people out.
The service has to be actively bad before I'm thinking about declining the tip altogether, but "barely passing" service will certainly get a lower tip than good service. Even if we're in a situation where every waiter basically ends up getting paid the same, the business owner can see the tips, and the owner knows how much he or she is having to pay each server to cover the gap between tips and the wage.
This is like a customer voting system. Waiters with high tips are costing the owner much less money. Waiters with low tips are expensive to pay. So the owner is much more likely to fire the waiters with low tips, or at least have a talk with them about how they can improve their service.
Yes, that is exactly what I said, above.
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Even the biggest restaurant pet peeve for a lot of people, bad food or slow food delivery, has less to do with the waiters than with the kitchen.
I judge the whole restaurant as an entire unit. If they cannot maintain the discipline to delivery a bare minimum quality of service, it is not my job to use tips to elevate that service. I simply go to another restaurant. I tip because it's the cultural expectation, not a waiter reward.
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If we abolished tipping, the price of food at restaurants would increase to cover the increased waiter salary. We should expect menu prices to rise by about 15-20% (whatever the average tip is). We can observe this in places that don't have a tipping culture. The menu price is correspondingly higher.
So you're not "paying for extra service [you] don't want," since you'd be paying roughly the same amount either way. The difference is whether that last ~20% is under your control or mandatory.
And I have no problem with that. I have no problem with paying costs if they're up front and honest about it. I am well aware that when I go to a restaurant that I'm supporting the business and their workers. I just don't like this imaginary "You're paying for better service" rationale that some people uses to hide the additional costs. It feels too much like those phone plans where the additional hidden fees ends up more than the actual advertised plan prices.
Oh yeah, screw this $19.99 BS. It's $20.
It depends... if the employee would normally make over minimum wage with tips you are screwing over the employee. If the employee would normally make under minimum wage you are screwing over the business and potentially the employee if the business decided to fire them.
With a cell bill, the fees are truly "hidden" in that you have to dig deep into the contract to find out about them. A normal person isn't going to be expecting these fees.
Tipping is not hidden because you know well in advance that you'll be adding ~20% to the bill at the end of the meal. There's nothing unclear about it.
And if you read some of my posts above, there's a pretty solid argument that tipping does lead to better service. But even if it doesn't, who cares. You're paying the same price either way.
Are you complaining about having to do the math? Everyone has a calculator in their pocket these days.
Sure, but what harm is there if the business wants to mark their price down by a penny?
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"Other operators in town, fully aware of how tips poison restaurants, knew we were enjoying an edge. Some of our colleagues resented this, and lashed out in some ways, including that of telling local journalists and bloggers that we were lying about the food we were serving. I assume that this is because those restaurants couldn’t serve the kind of food we did and still take tips, because tips are so wasteful."
It was plainly obvious that I wasn't going to get any valuable observations out if it.
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