We live in an era where everything that could have been considered morally wrong 20 years ago is now part of our daily lives. Series such as GoT and Penny Dreadful are more famous than infamous for having explicit sex scenes, most of people now lives together before getting married (if any) and homosexuals are now known in society.
Some of us, maybe too conservative, do not agree with the homosexual agenda, but we still have homosexual friends who know that and we get along just fine. The problem is when you talk about this with a heterosexual, and then things explode.
I've noticed that most heterosexuals are the first ones to jump into the wagon, and even become violent when a subject they find "homophobic" arises, even tho it's actually not offending anyone. I have the luck to hang out with a male homosexual friend and a boy-to girl transgender; as I mentioned early they know my point of view on the situation, and we have no problems at all since we're friends and civilized beings.
Thanks to my friends I've been able to further expand this topic by talking to their other homosexual friends, who ALSO think that heterosexuals might be too over protective, and that it's true that the media is forcing a homosexual agenda that is going out of control and making homosexuals look like a novel or a caricature instead of showing the reality of their lives.
Just to give you an example of this, 2 months ago a notice was posted on RPG Net forums, where a transexual was hyping that WOTC aknowledged that you can make your character of any gender you like. I commented that I didn't knew if they should gey hyped about something we already knew since the begining of roleplaying history, since a character and Game Master has the freedom to craft the game universe as they like, and gender has never been an issue wiith the freedom you have when making your character.
Well, that coment costed me 3 months banned for being transphobic... I called my Trans friend so she could see the coment, and she even thought that was stupid, to get a ban because of something that wasn't offensive at all.
We then talked about how she thinks "heterophobia is the new homophobia", and well, she is actually tired of heterosexuals trying too hard to appeal to the LGBT public when it's obvious there's still many hipocrecy out there. I mean, the polls say America is coming to accept homosexuals even more, b ut there are still offensive gay jokes on the internet, there are still terms that use the word "queer" or "***", and sadly, most of the people that you see defending gay people end up saying stuff like "You're so gay you'll get AIDS", and more offensive terms.
So, is it real that heterosexuals are trying maybe TOO HARD?
There is a lot of messed up stuff in that post ("homosexual agenda", it's okay my friends are gay). But mainly, when did it become a problem to speak out against forms of discrimination and injustice that may or may not affect you? White people should be anti-racist, heterosexual people should recognize homophobia when it appears, and men should probably not let other men be sexist pigs. It seems as if you think some heterosexual folks are overzealous in their calling out of homophobia. Is that perhaps because they are in a more privileged position to be able to take such a stance? Maybe some gay folks would feel uncomfortable addressing such issues and would prefer to avoid confrontation or drawing unwanted attention to themselves. I'm generally all for calling out messed up things when I see them. Sure, maybe there are people just searching out liberal brownie points by being more progressive than thou, but this does not result in some form of reverse 'phobia, a la reverse racism. That is dumb, unless we lived in a country where straight people got attacked for their sexual preferences, were denied employment, did not have access to their partner's healthcare, or the least of all problems, be denied the right to marry that partner.
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One of these day I have to get myself organizized.
There is a lot of messed up stuff in that post ("homosexual agenda", it's okay my friends are gay). But mainly, when did it become a problem to speak out against forms of discrimination and injustice that may or may not affect you? White people should be anti-racist, heterosexual people should recognize homophobia when it appears, and men should probably not let other men be sexist pigs. It seems as if you think some heterosexual folks are overzealous in their calling out of homophobia. Is that perhaps because they are in a more privileged position to be able to take such a stance? Maybe some gay folks would feel uncomfortable addressing such issues and would prefer to avoid confrontation or drawing unwanted attention to themselves. I'm generally all for calling out messed up things when I see them. Sure, maybe there are people just searching out liberal brownie points by being more progressive than thou, but this does not result in some form of reverse 'phobia, a la reverse racism. That is dumb, unless we lived in a country where straight people got attacked for their sexual preferences, were denied employment, did not have access to their partner's healthcare, or the least of all problems, be denied the right to marry that partner.
I am guessing you ignored his story about the message board he was banned from...
I'm all for pointing out when people are being discriminatory and using it as a teaching moment, but saying it's homophobic to make a comment about how something is not special new pro-LGBT news is just crazy. It reminds me of a scene from a sitcom where the main characters continuously stumble over their words when meeting the new black members because heaven forbid you say any word that might tangentially be related to slavery, servants, fields, cotton, maids, etc... while around a black person.
Another show had an episode that had a situation where several people in the neighborhood had their cars vandalized and the white wife character decided that it was important to go to the black neighbors and make sure they knew that they were not the only ones to be egged because she didn't the black neighbors think that someone egged their car because they were black...
I bring those up because sometimes I feel like this could actually happen in real life and it may not be that far away from the norm.
some form of reverse 'phobia, a la reverse racism.
What is reverse racism exactly? Because it looks like: doesn't discriminate on race.
Cries of reverse racism usually circulate amongst conservative groups who feel like institutions become so supportive of raced groups that white people end up suffering from the policies which help brown folks. Is this not what the OP described when he used the word 'heterophobia'?
@fluffy_bunny: in terms of the message board story, something doesn't add up. Post about WOTC being inclusive, response about how there were never barriers in RPG design space, and he gets banned?
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One of these day I have to get myself organizized.
We live in an era where everything that could have been considered morally wrong 20 years ago is now part of our daily lives.
Everything? You're starting off with a lot of hyperbole. Especially when 20 years ago is 1994 (otherwise known as the year Ellen got her first show). But I have a sneaking suspicion that for you, that was a long time ago.
Series such as GoT and Penny Dreadful are more famous than infamous for having explicit sex scenes, most of people now lives together before getting married (if any) and homosexuals are now known in society.
"Now known"? What do you think the world was like in the 90's? Besides the explicit sex scenes on TV (which I should note are premium cable, which has been airing explicit sex for the last 30 years), people have been living together without getting married and gays have been 'out' for the greater part of a century. And even before that, it was still there but the fear of being beaten or blacklisted kept them from acknowledging it openly.
Some of us, maybe too conservative, do not agree with the homosexual agenda, but we still have homosexual friends who know that and we get along just fine. The problem is when you talk about this with a heterosexual, and then things explode.
... What, to you, is the homosexual agenda? That is very loaded terminology for what really boils down to 'wanting rights'.
I've noticed that most heterosexuals are the first ones to jump into the wagon, and even become violent when a subject they find "homophobic" arises, even tho it's actually not offending anyone. I have the luck to hang out with a male homosexual friend and a boy-to girl transgender; as I mentioned early they know my point of view on the situation, and we have no problems at all since we're friends and civilized beings.
'Even become violent'... what? So you're saying that you believe it's a problem because you feel physically threatened just because you're who you are? I can see how you might want... an agenda... to correct that.
Thanks to my friends I've been able to further expand this topic by talking to their other homosexual friends, who ALSO think that heterosexuals might be too over protective, and that it's true that the media is forcing a homosexual agenda that is going out of control and making homosexuals look like a novel or a caricature instead of showing the reality of their lives.
So the homosexual agenda is to make homosexuals look ridiculous?
Just to give you an example of this, 2 months ago a notice was posted on RPG Net forums, where a transexual was hyping that WOTC aknowledged that you can make your character of any gender you like. I commented that I didn't knew if they should gey hyped about something we already knew since the begining of roleplaying history, since a character and Game Master has the freedom to craft the game universe as they like, and gender has never been an issue wiith the freedom you have when making your character.
Well, that coment costed me 3 months banned for being transphobic... I called my Trans friend so she could see the coment, and she even thought that was stupid, to get a ban because of something that wasn't offensive at all.
We then talked about how she thinks "heterophobia is the new homophobia", and well, she is actually tired of heterosexuals trying too hard to appeal to the LGBT public when it's obvious there's still many hipocrecy out there. I mean, the polls say America is coming to accept homosexuals even more, b ut there are still offensive gay jokes on the internet, there are still terms that use the word "queer" or "***", and sadly, most of the people that you see defending gay people end up saying stuff like "You're so gay you'll get AIDS", and more offensive terms.
So it's bad to support homosexual rights because heterosexuals are hypocrites and the internet has gay jokes? Or because gay rights supporters apparently have a 12-year-old's wit? What?
We live in an era where everything that could have been considered morally wrong 20 years ago is now part of our daily lives.
Everything? You're starting off with a lot of hyperbole. Especially when 20 years ago is 1994 (otherwise known as the year Ellen got her first show). But I have a sneaking suspicion that for you, that was a long time ago.
Series such as GoT and Penny Dreadful are more famous than infamous for having explicit sex scenes, most of people now lives together before getting married (if any) and homosexuals are now known in society.
"Now known"? What do you think the world was like in the 90's? Besides the explicit sex scenes on TV (which I should note are premium cable, which has been airing explicit sex for the last 30 years), people have been living together without getting married and gays have been 'out' for the greater part of a century. And even before that, it was still there but the fear of being beaten or blacklisted kept them from acknowledging it openly.
Some of us, maybe too conservative, do not agree with the homosexual agenda, but we still have homosexual friends who know that and we get along just fine. The problem is when you talk about this with a heterosexual, and then things explode.
... What, to you, is the homosexual agenda? That is very loaded terminology for what really boils down to 'wanting rights'.
I've noticed that most heterosexuals are the first ones to jump into the wagon, and even become violent when a subject they find "homophobic" arises, even tho it's actually not offending anyone. I have the luck to hang out with a male homosexual friend and a boy-to girl transgender; as I mentioned early they know my point of view on the situation, and we have no problems at all since we're friends and civilized beings.
'Even become violent'... what? So you're saying that you believe it's a problem because you feel physically threatened just because you're who you are? I can see how you might want... an agenda... to correct that.
Thanks to my friends I've been able to further expand this topic by talking to their other homosexual friends, who ALSO think that heterosexuals might be too over protective, and that it's true that the media is forcing a homosexual agenda that is going out of control and making homosexuals look like a novel or a caricature instead of showing the reality of their lives.
So the homosexual agenda is to make homosexuals look ridiculous?
Just to give you an example of this, 2 months ago a notice was posted on RPG Net forums, where a transexual was hyping that WOTC aknowledged that you can make your character of any gender you like. I commented that I didn't knew if they should gey hyped about something we already knew since the begining of roleplaying history, since a character and Game Master has the freedom to craft the game universe as they like, and gender has never been an issue wiith the freedom you have when making your character.
Well, that coment costed me 3 months banned for being transphobic... I called my Trans friend so she could see the coment, and she even thought that was stupid, to get a ban because of something that wasn't offensive at all.
We then talked about how she thinks "heterophobia is the new homophobia", and well, she is actually tired of heterosexuals trying too hard to appeal to the LGBT public when it's obvious there's still many hipocrecy out there. I mean, the polls say America is coming to accept homosexuals even more, b ut there are still offensive gay jokes on the internet, there are still terms that use the word "queer" or "***", and sadly, most of the people that you see defending gay people end up saying stuff like "You're so gay you'll get AIDS", and more offensive terms.
So it's bad to support homosexual rights because heterosexuals are hypocrites and the internet has gay jokes? Or because gay rights supporters apparently have a 12-year-old's wit? What?
So, is it real that heterosexuals are trying maybe TOO HARD?
No, it is not.
You're quite confused about the part of heterosexuals being hipocrytes... Read it again. People who usually says "I support gay marriage!" just say it to look progresist and avoid confrontation, even if with their social circles they make gay jokes and act contrary to their supposed beliefs. It makes no good if you say you support something and act like you don't later.
Also, it's a BANNED MESSAGE, it was taken down by moderators, but it was something like this:
"No offense but nowadays it's like every company must say they agree with the gay agenda in order to earn some respect... I mean, why would they even talk about this if D&D is all about the world the DM makes?
And it's not like other RPGs have never handled homosexuality and sexuality... Anima: Beyond Fantasy has anticonceptive magic, transgender magic, and an island populated by 70% hot lesbians"
And it's easier to talk about homosexuals about well, homosexuality, than with heterosexuals. My trans friend wasn't ofended at all of this, and the forum was open by a transgender activist.
Just to give you an example of this, 2 months ago a notice was posted on RPG Net forums, where a transexual was hyping that WOTC aknowledged that you can make your character of any gender you like. I commented that I didn't knew if they should gey hyped about something we already knew since the begining of roleplaying history, since a character and Game Master has the freedom to craft the game universe as they like, and gender has never been an issue wiith the freedom you have when making your character.
Well, that coment costed me 3 months banned for being transphobic... I called my Trans friend so she could see the coment, and she even thought that was stupid, to get a ban because of something that wasn't offensive at all.
Post the link, please.
Quote from Aldath, elsewhere »
No offense but nowadays it's like every company must say "I agree with the gay ideology" in order to get some praise... I mean, why would they even talk about this if D&D is all about the world the DM makes?
In a thread where LGBT people are being happy that D&D finally recognises them, you pop up and complain about the "gay ideology" (presumably that's 'have your relationships recognised in media in the same way that those of other people are'). I'm not surprised you got banned.
Edit: which forum was opened by a transgender activist?
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I am willing to bet my collection that Frozen and Solid are not on the same card. For example, Frozen Tomb and Solid Wall.
If Frozen Solid is not reprinted, you are aware that I'm quoting you in my sig for eternity?
You're quite confused about the part of heterosexuals being hipocrytes... Read it again. People who usually says "I support gay marriage!" just say it to look progresist and avoid confrontation, even if with their social circles they make gay jokes and act contrary to their supposed beliefs. It makes no good if you say you support something and act like you don't later.
So what if people do? I'm not sure how this is relevant about going 'too far' to support homosexuals. Doesn't that imply the exact opposite of your case?
Also, it's a BANNED MESSAGE, it was taken down by moderators, but it was something like this:
"No offense but nowadays it's like every company must say they agree with the gay agenda in order to earn some respect... I mean, why would they even talk about this if D&D is all about the world the DM makes?
And it's not like other RPGs have never handled homosexuality and sexuality... Anima: Beyond Fantasy has anticonceptive magic, transgender magic, and an island populated by 70% hot lesbians"
Yeah, I'd probably infract you for trolling with a comment like that, too.
And again, what is this gay agenda you keep talking about?
And it's easier to talk about homosexuals about well, homosexuality, than with heterosexuals. My trans friend wasn't ofended at all of this, and the forum was open by a transgender activist.
So are any of these 'friends' people you've met in real life? Because even if you have, it's irrelevant. I've got lots of black friends. Even if for some reason one of them agreed with me on something about race, that doesn't make them, or me, correct. I can pull out just as many (and probably more) LGBT anecdotes as you to counter your points.
Just to give you an example of this, 2 months ago a notice was posted on RPG Net forums, where a transexual was hyping that WOTC aknowledged that you can make your character of any gender you like. I commented that I didn't knew if they should gey hyped about something we already knew since the begining of roleplaying history, since a character and Game Master has the freedom to craft the game universe as they like, and gender has never been an issue wiith the freedom you have when making your character.
Well, that coment costed me 3 months banned for being transphobic... I called my Trans friend so she could see the coment, and she even thought that was stupid, to get a ban because of something that wasn't offensive at all.
Post the link, please.
Quote from Aldath, elsewhere »
No offense but nowadays it's like every company must say "I agree with the gay ideology" in order to get some praise... I mean, why would they even talk about this if D&D is all about the world the DM makes?
In a thread where LGBT people are being happy that D&D finally recognises them, you pop up and complain about the "gay ideology" (presumably that's 'have your relationships recognised in media in the same way that those of other people are'). I'm not surprised you got banned.
Edit: which forum was opened by a transgender activist?
Well, yeah, my original language isn't english, so sometimes I just mess up what I write, the idea of the post is that it's true that the media is cartering to LGBT comunity, and not because they actually care or want to do some good, but because that earns them some reputation; as a Media & Publicity Student, it's something we've talked a lot about, and it was never my intention as stated to offend LGBT members. The forum was opened by a LGBT activist, I think she's a transgender.
Also, it's a BANNED MESSAGE, it was taken down by moderators, but it was something like this:
"No offense but nowadays it's like every company must say they agree with the gay agenda in order to earn some respect... I mean, why would they even talk about this if D&D is all about the world the DM makes?
And it's not like other RPGs have never handled homosexuality and sexuality... Anima: Beyond Fantasy has anticonceptive magic, transgender magic, and an island populated by 70% hot lesbians"
Yeah, I'd probably infract you for trolling with a comment like that, too.
Seriously? You see that as trolling? OP: Yay they finally did X!!! Troll: Why does this matter? Reason A
To me the correct response to that is to either explain why you think it matters to educate the "troll" or to just agree to disagree and ignore it. Shouting "troll!" and removing the comment seems really.... insecure?
Well, yeah, my original language isn't english, so sometimes I just mess up what I write, the idea of the post is that it's true that the media is cartering to LGBT comunity, and not because they actually care or want to do some good, but because that earns them some reputation; as a Media & Publicity Student, it's something we've talked a lot about, and it was never my intention as stated to offend LGBT members. The forum was opened by a LGBT activist, I think she's a transgender.
Businesses cater to everything that it wants to cater to.
The fact that they do this is not relevant in of itself.
The more pertinent question is "why".
And the fact of the matter is that, at least in the U.S., gay rights is a rising tide. Businesses will want to tie themselves to this so that they can ensure profit and good public relations.
The issue with the way you write is the "gay agenda". That phrasing has severe negative connotations in the U.S.
Also, it's a BANNED MESSAGE, it was taken down by moderators, but it was something like this:
"No offense but nowadays it's like every company must say they agree with the gay agenda in order to earn some respect... I mean, why would they even talk about this if D&D is all about the world the DM makes?
And it's not like other RPGs have never handled homosexuality and sexuality... Anima: Beyond Fantasy has anticonceptive magic, transgender magic, and an island populated by 70% hot lesbians"
Yeah, I'd probably infract you for trolling with a comment like that, too.
Seriously? You see that as trolling? OP: Yay they finally did X!!! Troll: Why does this matter? Reason A
To me the correct response to that is to either explain why you think it matters to educate the "troll" or to just agree to disagree and ignore it. Shouting "troll!" and removing the comment seems really.... insecure?
The post was not deleted. Besides which, unless the meaning of the word has changed, I thought trolls were trying to provoke a response, not learn.
LGBT people get enough 'agenda' crap in the rest of their lives, they don't need it in a forum about roleplaying games.
(And yes, OP, you could have played an LGBT character in any edition of D&D, but this is the first edition, so far as I know, that explicitly recognises that.)
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Quote from MD »
I am willing to bet my collection that Frozen and Solid are not on the same card. For example, Frozen Tomb and Solid Wall.
If Frozen Solid is not reprinted, you are aware that I'm quoting you in my sig for eternity?
Also, it's a BANNED MESSAGE, it was taken down by moderators, but it was something like this:
"No offense but nowadays it's like every company must say they agree with the gay agenda in order to earn some respect... I mean, why would they even talk about this if D&D is all about the world the DM makes?
And it's not like other RPGs have never handled homosexuality and sexuality... Anima: Beyond Fantasy has anticonceptive magic, transgender magic, and an island populated by 70% hot lesbians"
Yeah, I'd probably infract you for trolling with a comment like that, too.
Seriously? You see that as trolling? OP: Yay they finally did X!!! Troll: Why does this matter? Reason A
To me the correct response to that is to either explain why you think it matters to educate the "troll" or to just agree to disagree and ignore it. Shouting "troll!" and removing the comment seems really.... insecure?
Yes, seriously. Saying 'No Offense' generally isn't a good defense against saying something offensive. No one ever uses it to say things like "No offense, but I think you're a pretty great guy". It's only ever used when you know you're going to say something offensive. He could have left it at "But the world was always up to the GM's discretion, so I'm not sure why this matters" and would have made his point perfectly fine. The point is one I actually one I agree with (the GM part, not the Gay Agenda part), just not the way he went about it. It's really easy to make a point without being offensive.
And I don't think the comment was actually removed.
Well, yeah, my original language isn't english, so sometimes I just mess up what I write, the idea of the post is that it's true that the media is cartering to LGBT comunity, and not because they actually care or want to do some good, but because that earns them some reputation; as a Media & Publicity Student, it's something we've talked a lot about, and it was never my intention as stated to offend LGBT members. The forum was opened by a LGBT activist, I think she's a transgender.
That's fine, you don't need to be a native English speaker to participate in a discussion. Your English is perfectly fine
Look, when I was 22 I was also heavily conservative. I tended to repeat rhetoric I heard from either my family or the kinds of media they watched, until I realized how inconsistent or inaccurate rhetoric tends to be. What I'm trying to do by questioning your statements is get you to expand further. As it stands right now, your arguments are really internally inconsistent and sound more like you're repeating the rhetoric you've heard instead of espousing your own opinion. You seem to have a general dislike of the 'gay agenda', but you can't consistently define what that agenda is.
I would also like to know what gay agenda Wizards is agreeing with an advancing here. As far as I can tell, the item in question is this paragraph from the character creation:
You don’t need to be confined to binary notions of sex and gender. The elf god Corellon Larethian is often seen as androgynous or hermaphroditic, for example, and some elves in the multiverse are made in Corellon’s image. You could also play a female character who presents herself as a man, a man who feels trapped in a female body, or a bearded female dwarf who hates being mistaken for a male. Likewise, your character’s sexual orientation is for you to decide.
It looks to me like this is a perfectly reasonable statement about the range of character creation options you have.
If LGBT people feel patronized by a company via apparently insincere policies, at least it's better than being held back by policies that invoke bigotry. I'd rather have insincere support than open hostility any day. Besides, how does one arrive at the conclusion that a stance, statement or position being put forward by a marketing campaign is any less sincere than another?
Never mind that in order to progress from awkward insincerity to open armed acceptance, it will require cis-gendered people to be even more open minded, protective and guarded with their language, rather than showing indifference or worse, hostility. In other words, what else can "straight" people do to try to improve the culture?
Just drop the idea of "gay agenda". There's not a secret shadowy gay media group who plan how to push an agenda. The phrase itself is tin-hat conspiracy territory.
I wouldn't be too quick to call an ally a hypocrite. One person can not be held resposible for every immature person who uses smear words. In order to be a hypocrite, that same person would have to be the one also using smears while also offering a friendly face. Just as there's no central gay agenda, there's tons of people out there with varying levels of open mindedness. I wish I could say there was no central planning for opression of LGBT folks, but groups like Westboro Baptist exists...
The comment that got the OP banned on that forum was pretty ham fisted. I get what you were trying to say, but even taken in the best light, it's a pretty negative thought. "Hey, dont get excited, you didn't win anything new!" Might want to reflect a bit more on what thoughts you put out there when people are excited that their lifestyles are now acknowledged in an official rule book. It's not hard to see a comment like that, take it out of context, and read it as more of a statement of a bitter bigot than a jaded ally.
Also, it's a BANNED MESSAGE, it was taken down by moderators, but it was something like this:
"No offense but nowadays it's like every company must say they agree with the gay agenda in order to earn some respect... I mean, why would they even talk about this if D&D is all about the world the DM makes?
And it's not like other RPGs have never handled homosexuality and sexuality... Anima: Beyond Fantasy has anticonceptive magic, transgender magic, and an island populated by 70% hot lesbians"
Yeah, I'd probably infract you for trolling with a comment like that, too.
Seriously? You see that as trolling? OP: Yay they finally did X!!! Troll: Why does this matter? Reason A
To me the correct response to that is to either explain why you think it matters to educate the "troll" or to just agree to disagree and ignore it. Shouting "troll!" and removing the comment seems really.... insecure?
Yes, seriously. Saying 'No Offense' generally isn't a good defense against saying something offensive. No one ever uses it to say things like "No offense, but I think you're a pretty great guy". It's only ever used when you know you're going to say something offensive. He could have left it at "But the world was always up to the GM's discretion, so I'm not sure why this matters" and would have made his point perfectly fine. The point is one I actually one I agree with (the GM part, not the Gay Agenda part), just not the way he went about it. It's really easy to make a point without being offensive.
And I don't think the comment was actually removed.
So by saying "no offense" his statement was trolling but if he did not say "no offense" it would not have been?
This is where I can totally understand where the OP is coming from... overly criticizing statements made that "could" offend someone or disagree with someone that falls into one of the special groups that some people feel the need to overly protect. We can't read between the lines and realize that basically he is saying "I dont get the need to overly discuss this, it seems to be a popular publicity stunt, they did not actually change anything they just pointed out an option that has always been there.", and instead have to assume he's a troll and punish him?
I've noticed that most heterosexuals are the first ones to jump into the wagon, and even become violent when a subject they find "homophobic" arises, even tho it's actually not offending anyone.
Honestly my gay friends are generally too busy dodging chumps sniping at them to really counter effectively so I sometimes end up tanking for them. Dunno how you're defining violent tho, most sexuality-related violence I hear about is angry straight people beating up the non-straight.
What is this homosexual agenda anyway? To be treated fairly and equally?
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“Tell me who you walk with, and I'll tell you who you are.” Esmeralda Santiago Art is life itself.
I would also like to know what gay agenda Wizards is agreeing with an advancing here. As far as I can tell, the item in question is this paragraph from the character creation:
You don’t need to be confined to binary notions of sex and gender. The elf god Corellon Larethian is often seen as androgynous or hermaphroditic, for example, and some elves in the multiverse are made in Corellon’s image. You could also play a female character who presents herself as a man, a man who feels trapped in a female body, or a bearded female dwarf who hates being mistaken for a male. Likewise, your character’s sexual orientation is for you to decide.
It looks to me like this is a perfectly reasonable statement about the range of character creation options you have.
Yeah, I thought it was brilliantly conceived and written, the way it gracefully introduces these concepts within the context of the fantasy worlds they're teaching you to build and opening up the possibility that these worlds could have entirely different gender situations and norms than our own. (Contrast Pathfinder's ham-fisted, tokenistic, self-congratulatory, and creatively sterile approach to diversity.)
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Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Also, it's a BANNED MESSAGE, it was taken down by moderators, but it was something like this:
"No offense but nowadays it's like every company must say they agree with the gay agenda in order to earn some respect... I mean, why would they even talk about this if D&D is all about the world the DM makes?
And it's not like other RPGs have never handled homosexuality and sexuality... Anima: Beyond Fantasy has anticonceptive magic, transgender magic, and an island populated by 70% hot lesbians"
Yeah, I'd probably infract you for trolling with a comment like that, too.
Seriously? You see that as trolling? OP: Yay they finally did X!!! Troll: Why does this matter? Reason A
To me the correct response to that is to either explain why you think it matters to educate the "troll" or to just agree to disagree and ignore it. Shouting "troll!" and removing the comment seems really.... insecure?
Yes, seriously. Saying 'No Offense' generally isn't a good defense against saying something offensive. No one ever uses it to say things like "No offense, but I think you're a pretty great guy". It's only ever used when you know you're going to say something offensive. He could have left it at "But the world was always up to the GM's discretion, so I'm not sure why this matters" and would have made his point perfectly fine. The point is one I actually one I agree with (the GM part, not the Gay Agenda part), just not the way he went about it. It's really easy to make a point without being offensive.
And I don't think the comment was actually removed.
So by saying "no offense" his statement was trolling but if he did not say "no offense" it would not have been?
This is where I can totally understand where the OP is coming from... overly criticizing statements made that "could" offend someone or disagree with someone that falls into one of the special groups that some people feel the need to overly protect. We can't read between the lines and realize that basically he is saying "I dont get the need to overly discuss this, it seems to be a popular publicity stunt, they did not actually change anything they just pointed out an option that has always been there.", and instead have to assume he's a troll and punish him?
No, you missed my point - I was saying that the way you phrase something matters. He had a perfectly valid point to make that he made in an incredibly inflammatory way. Instead of just making his point, he tacked on a 'no offense' comment about the gay agenda. No offense by itself isn't a problem, but judging by the context of the comment, the aggressive wording (of which 'no offense' is a part) and assertion of a perceived 'gay agenda' to blame, it crosses the line from reasonable comment to one that would definitely provoke flaming in reply.
If you want to continue talking about the finer points of what is and isn't trolling, you're welcome to take it to my help desk. It's lonely there anyway.
If you want to continue talking about the finer points of what is and isn't trolling, you're welcome to take it to my help desk. It's lonely there anyway.
This tells me you missed my point which is perfectly on topic... I don't think responses toward, for lack of a better way to distinguish them, liberal topics are treated the same way as conservative topics(I hate that classification). I think a lot more leeway is given to responses against gun control or against opponents of gay marriage etc... versus responses to a topic on homosexual rights or welfare or something like that.
If you want to continue talking about the finer points of what is and isn't trolling, you're welcome to take it to my help desk. It's lonely there anyway.
This tells me you missed my point which is perfectly on topic... I don't think responses toward, for lack of a better way to distinguish them, liberal topics are treated the same way as conservative topics(I hate that classification). I think a lot more leeway is given to responses against gun control or against opponents of gay marriage etc... versus responses to a topic on homosexual rights or welfare or something like that.
The problem here is that it largely depends on the forum (as in the place you choose, not in terms of a message board although it might be that,too) you're expressing the opinion. Have you considered that the leeway is because you frequent liberal leaning areas? Or that maybe conservatives, at least conservatives in the arena you are looking at, aren't very good at expressing opinions without being insulting? I once had a politics of poverty class where I and another guy were the only two conservatives. The other guy couldn't keep his mouth shut and constantly interrupted the instructor, espoused rhetoric rather than facts or reason on a regular basis, and generally painted his entire viewpoint in a negative light, despite having some legitimate points. He felt singled out because of the liberal bias, but he was singled out because he was rude. No one had a problem about what I had to say.
Now, there is legitimacy in what you're saying that sometimes people overreact to the viewpoint that isn't leading the day (there is some discussion about this the gamergate thread). I can see that a lot, too, but it isn't strictly a liberal/conservative thing so much as the weight of the prevailing wind skewing your perception of the results. Debate itself has leaned pretty heavily between the two extremes over time, and if I dug I could find examples where gun control threads go one direction or the other.
You're quite confused about the part of heterosexuals being hipocrytes... Read it again. People who usually says "I support gay marriage!" just say it to look progresist and avoid confrontation, even if with their social circles they make gay jokes and act contrary to their supposed beliefs. It makes no good if you say you support something and act like you don't later.
So what if people do? I'm not sure how this is relevant about going 'too far' to support homosexuals. Doesn't that imply the exact opposite of your case?
Also, it's a BANNED MESSAGE, it was taken down by moderators, but it was something like this:
"No offense but nowadays it's like every company must say they agree with the gay agenda in order to earn some respect... I mean, why would they even talk about this if D&D is all about the world the DM makes?
And it's not like other RPGs have never handled homosexuality and sexuality... Anima: Beyond Fantasy has anticonceptive magic, transgender magic, and an island populated by 70% hot lesbians"
Yeah, I'd probably infract you for trolling with a comment like that, too.
And again, what is this gay agenda you keep talking about?
And it's easier to talk about homosexuals about well, homosexuality, than with heterosexuals. My trans friend wasn't ofended at all of this, and the forum was open by a transgender activist.
So are any of these 'friends' people you've met in real life? Because even if you have, it's irrelevant. I've got lots of black friends. Even if for some reason one of them agreed with me on something about race, that doesn't make them, or me, correct. I can pull out just as many (and probably more) LGBT anecdotes as you to counter your points.
Unfortunately, the OP is correct. Heterosexuals are very conscious about their SJW image and tend to be overprotective of homosexuals.
There also is very much a "Homosexual agenda." To boil it down, homosexuals seek not only equal rights as heterosexuals (can't blame them for that) but also enforced affirmation of their sexuality, which is a very dangerous thing. It has led for social ostracization and even government fines levied on people who are simply following their religious beliefs and not affirming or participating in gay weddings.
Back in the 80's there was a paper, entitled "After the Ball" published by a gay rights organization that became widely distributed across the country to gay communities which described how gays should relate with their heterosexual neighbors. Higher than average sexual addiction, substance abuse, mental illnesses, and infidelity have been well documented among gay communities yet this paper instructed gays to "hide" anyone among them who may be exhibiting these qualities at rallies or events. Instead, they instructed, you should bring out your white middle class attractive community members and show your neighbors that being homosexual is just like heterosexuality, thus trying to hide the higher than average problems that the gay community exhibits. This technique has worked marvelously. In the media you are only shown happy rich committed gay couples and any mention of the problems statistically associated with homosexuality is meet with vitriol.
Furthermore, gay over-representation in the media has Americans thinking that roughly a third of America is gay, when the actual number is much, much lower.
Some of us, maybe too conservative, do not agree with the homosexual agenda, but we still have homosexual friends who know that and we get along just fine. The problem is when you talk about this with a heterosexual, and then things explode.
I've noticed that most heterosexuals are the first ones to jump into the wagon, and even become violent when a subject they find "homophobic" arises, even tho it's actually not offending anyone. I have the luck to hang out with a male homosexual friend and a boy-to girl transgender; as I mentioned early they know my point of view on the situation, and we have no problems at all since we're friends and civilized beings.
Thanks to my friends I've been able to further expand this topic by talking to their other homosexual friends, who ALSO think that heterosexuals might be too over protective, and that it's true that the media is forcing a homosexual agenda that is going out of control and making homosexuals look like a novel or a caricature instead of showing the reality of their lives.
Just to give you an example of this, 2 months ago a notice was posted on RPG Net forums, where a transexual was hyping that WOTC aknowledged that you can make your character of any gender you like. I commented that I didn't knew if they should gey hyped about something we already knew since the begining of roleplaying history, since a character and Game Master has the freedom to craft the game universe as they like, and gender has never been an issue wiith the freedom you have when making your character.
Well, that coment costed me 3 months banned for being transphobic... I called my Trans friend so she could see the coment, and she even thought that was stupid, to get a ban because of something that wasn't offensive at all.
We then talked about how she thinks "heterophobia is the new homophobia", and well, she is actually tired of heterosexuals trying too hard to appeal to the LGBT public when it's obvious there's still many hipocrecy out there. I mean, the polls say America is coming to accept homosexuals even more, b ut there are still offensive gay jokes on the internet, there are still terms that use the word "queer" or "***", and sadly, most of the people that you see defending gay people end up saying stuff like "You're so gay you'll get AIDS", and more offensive terms.
So, is it real that heterosexuals are trying maybe TOO HARD?
What is reverse racism exactly? Because it looks like: doesn't discriminate on race.
I am guessing you ignored his story about the message board he was banned from...
I'm all for pointing out when people are being discriminatory and using it as a teaching moment, but saying it's homophobic to make a comment about how something is not special new pro-LGBT news is just crazy. It reminds me of a scene from a sitcom where the main characters continuously stumble over their words when meeting the new black members because heaven forbid you say any word that might tangentially be related to slavery, servants, fields, cotton, maids, etc... while around a black person.
Another show had an episode that had a situation where several people in the neighborhood had their cars vandalized and the white wife character decided that it was important to go to the black neighbors and make sure they knew that they were not the only ones to be egged because she didn't the black neighbors think that someone egged their car because they were black...
I bring those up because sometimes I feel like this could actually happen in real life and it may not be that far away from the norm.
@fluffy_bunny: in terms of the message board story, something doesn't add up. Post about WOTC being inclusive, response about how there were never barriers in RPG design space, and he gets banned?
Everything? You're starting off with a lot of hyperbole. Especially when 20 years ago is 1994 (otherwise known as the year Ellen got her first show). But I have a sneaking suspicion that for you, that was a long time ago.
"Now known"? What do you think the world was like in the 90's? Besides the explicit sex scenes on TV (which I should note are premium cable, which has been airing explicit sex for the last 30 years), people have been living together without getting married and gays have been 'out' for the greater part of a century. And even before that, it was still there but the fear of being beaten or blacklisted kept them from acknowledging it openly.
... What, to you, is the homosexual agenda? That is very loaded terminology for what really boils down to 'wanting rights'.
'Even become violent'... what? So you're saying that you believe it's a problem because you feel physically threatened just because you're who you are? I can see how you might want... an agenda... to correct that.
So the homosexual agenda is to make homosexuals look ridiculous?
Post the link, please.
So it's bad to support homosexual rights because heterosexuals are hypocrites and the internet has gay jokes? Or because gay rights supporters apparently have a 12-year-old's wit? What?
No, it is not.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
You're quite confused about the part of heterosexuals being hipocrytes... Read it again. People who usually says "I support gay marriage!" just say it to look progresist and avoid confrontation, even if with their social circles they make gay jokes and act contrary to their supposed beliefs. It makes no good if you say you support something and act like you don't later.
Also, it's a BANNED MESSAGE, it was taken down by moderators, but it was something like this:
"No offense but nowadays it's like every company must say they agree with the gay agenda in order to earn some respect... I mean, why would they even talk about this if D&D is all about the world the DM makes?
And it's not like other RPGs have never handled homosexuality and sexuality... Anima: Beyond Fantasy has anticonceptive magic, transgender magic, and an island populated by 70% hot lesbians"
And it's easier to talk about homosexuals about well, homosexuality, than with heterosexuals. My trans friend wasn't ofended at all of this, and the forum was open by a transgender activist.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/outside-magic/debate/566448-sjw-tumblr-style-leaking-from-tumblr-should-we-be
Yes. They're wrong.
But I got to ask you first before I go anywhere else- how old are you? And, yes, this is an important question.
In a thread where LGBT people are being happy that D&D finally recognises them, you pop up and complain about the "gay ideology" (presumably that's 'have your relationships recognised in media in the same way that those of other people are'). I'm not surprised you got banned.
Edit: which forum was opened by a transgender activist?
So what if people do? I'm not sure how this is relevant about going 'too far' to support homosexuals. Doesn't that imply the exact opposite of your case?
Yeah, I'd probably infract you for trolling with a comment like that, too.
And again, what is this gay agenda you keep talking about?
So are any of these 'friends' people you've met in real life? Because even if you have, it's irrelevant. I've got lots of black friends. Even if for some reason one of them agreed with me on something about race, that doesn't make them, or me, correct. I can pull out just as many (and probably more) LGBT anecdotes as you to counter your points.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
I'm 22, pretty young for being a conservative male right? I guess...
And yeah, I'm talking about those kinds of people.
Well, yeah, my original language isn't english, so sometimes I just mess up what I write, the idea of the post is that it's true that the media is cartering to LGBT comunity, and not because they actually care or want to do some good, but because that earns them some reputation; as a Media & Publicity Student, it's something we've talked a lot about, and it was never my intention as stated to offend LGBT members. The forum was opened by a LGBT activist, I think she's a transgender.
Seriously? You see that as trolling? OP: Yay they finally did X!!! Troll: Why does this matter? Reason A
To me the correct response to that is to either explain why you think it matters to educate the "troll" or to just agree to disagree and ignore it. Shouting "troll!" and removing the comment seems really.... insecure?
Businesses cater to everything that it wants to cater to.
The fact that they do this is not relevant in of itself.
The more pertinent question is "why".
And the fact of the matter is that, at least in the U.S., gay rights is a rising tide. Businesses will want to tie themselves to this so that they can ensure profit and good public relations.
The issue with the way you write is the "gay agenda". That phrasing has severe negative connotations in the U.S.
The post was not deleted. Besides which, unless the meaning of the word has changed, I thought trolls were trying to provoke a response, not learn.
LGBT people get enough 'agenda' crap in the rest of their lives, they don't need it in a forum about roleplaying games.
(And yes, OP, you could have played an LGBT character in any edition of D&D, but this is the first edition, so far as I know, that explicitly recognises that.)
Yes, seriously. Saying 'No Offense' generally isn't a good defense against saying something offensive. No one ever uses it to say things like "No offense, but I think you're a pretty great guy". It's only ever used when you know you're going to say something offensive. He could have left it at "But the world was always up to the GM's discretion, so I'm not sure why this matters" and would have made his point perfectly fine. The point is one I actually one I agree with (the GM part, not the Gay Agenda part), just not the way he went about it. It's really easy to make a point without being offensive.
And I don't think the comment was actually removed.
That's fine, you don't need to be a native English speaker to participate in a discussion. Your English is perfectly fine
Look, when I was 22 I was also heavily conservative. I tended to repeat rhetoric I heard from either my family or the kinds of media they watched, until I realized how inconsistent or inaccurate rhetoric tends to be. What I'm trying to do by questioning your statements is get you to expand further. As it stands right now, your arguments are really internally inconsistent and sound more like you're repeating the rhetoric you've heard instead of espousing your own opinion. You seem to have a general dislike of the 'gay agenda', but you can't consistently define what that agenda is.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
It looks to me like this is a perfectly reasonable statement about the range of character creation options you have.
Never mind that in order to progress from awkward insincerity to open armed acceptance, it will require cis-gendered people to be even more open minded, protective and guarded with their language, rather than showing indifference or worse, hostility. In other words, what else can "straight" people do to try to improve the culture?
Just drop the idea of "gay agenda". There's not a secret shadowy gay media group who plan how to push an agenda. The phrase itself is tin-hat conspiracy territory.
I wouldn't be too quick to call an ally a hypocrite. One person can not be held resposible for every immature person who uses smear words. In order to be a hypocrite, that same person would have to be the one also using smears while also offering a friendly face. Just as there's no central gay agenda, there's tons of people out there with varying levels of open mindedness. I wish I could say there was no central planning for opression of LGBT folks, but groups like Westboro Baptist exists...
The comment that got the OP banned on that forum was pretty ham fisted. I get what you were trying to say, but even taken in the best light, it's a pretty negative thought. "Hey, dont get excited, you didn't win anything new!" Might want to reflect a bit more on what thoughts you put out there when people are excited that their lifestyles are now acknowledged in an official rule book. It's not hard to see a comment like that, take it out of context, and read it as more of a statement of a bitter bigot than a jaded ally.
So by saying "no offense" his statement was trolling but if he did not say "no offense" it would not have been?
This is where I can totally understand where the OP is coming from... overly criticizing statements made that "could" offend someone or disagree with someone that falls into one of the special groups that some people feel the need to overly protect. We can't read between the lines and realize that basically he is saying "I dont get the need to overly discuss this, it seems to be a popular publicity stunt, they did not actually change anything they just pointed out an option that has always been there.", and instead have to assume he's a troll and punish him?
Art is life itself.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
No, you missed my point - I was saying that the way you phrase something matters. He had a perfectly valid point to make that he made in an incredibly inflammatory way. Instead of just making his point, he tacked on a 'no offense' comment about the gay agenda. No offense by itself isn't a problem, but judging by the context of the comment, the aggressive wording (of which 'no offense' is a part) and assertion of a perceived 'gay agenda' to blame, it crosses the line from reasonable comment to one that would definitely provoke flaming in reply.
If you want to continue talking about the finer points of what is and isn't trolling, you're welcome to take it to my help desk. It's lonely there anyway.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
This tells me you missed my point which is perfectly on topic... I don't think responses toward, for lack of a better way to distinguish them, liberal topics are treated the same way as conservative topics(I hate that classification). I think a lot more leeway is given to responses against gun control or against opponents of gay marriage etc... versus responses to a topic on homosexual rights or welfare or something like that.
The problem here is that it largely depends on the forum (as in the place you choose, not in terms of a message board although it might be that,too) you're expressing the opinion. Have you considered that the leeway is because you frequent liberal leaning areas? Or that maybe conservatives, at least conservatives in the arena you are looking at, aren't very good at expressing opinions without being insulting? I once had a politics of poverty class where I and another guy were the only two conservatives. The other guy couldn't keep his mouth shut and constantly interrupted the instructor, espoused rhetoric rather than facts or reason on a regular basis, and generally painted his entire viewpoint in a negative light, despite having some legitimate points. He felt singled out because of the liberal bias, but he was singled out because he was rude. No one had a problem about what I had to say.
Now, there is legitimacy in what you're saying that sometimes people overreact to the viewpoint that isn't leading the day (there is some discussion about this the gamergate thread). I can see that a lot, too, but it isn't strictly a liberal/conservative thing so much as the weight of the prevailing wind skewing your perception of the results. Debate itself has leaned pretty heavily between the two extremes over time, and if I dug I could find examples where gun control threads go one direction or the other.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
Unfortunately, the OP is correct. Heterosexuals are very conscious about their SJW image and tend to be overprotective of homosexuals.
There also is very much a "Homosexual agenda." To boil it down, homosexuals seek not only equal rights as heterosexuals (can't blame them for that) but also enforced affirmation of their sexuality, which is a very dangerous thing. It has led for social ostracization and even government fines levied on people who are simply following their religious beliefs and not affirming or participating in gay weddings.
Back in the 80's there was a paper, entitled "After the Ball" published by a gay rights organization that became widely distributed across the country to gay communities which described how gays should relate with their heterosexual neighbors. Higher than average sexual addiction, substance abuse, mental illnesses, and infidelity have been well documented among gay communities yet this paper instructed gays to "hide" anyone among them who may be exhibiting these qualities at rallies or events. Instead, they instructed, you should bring out your white middle class attractive community members and show your neighbors that being homosexual is just like heterosexuality, thus trying to hide the higher than average problems that the gay community exhibits. This technique has worked marvelously. In the media you are only shown happy rich committed gay couples and any mention of the problems statistically associated with homosexuality is meet with vitriol.
Furthermore, gay over-representation in the media has Americans thinking that roughly a third of America is gay, when the actual number is much, much lower.
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/williams-institute-report-reveals-million-gay-bisexual-transgender/story?id=13320565
http://www.gallup.com/video/147827/Young-Adults-Women-Put-Gay-Population.aspx
I'm sure our hearts all go out to people who have experienced social ostracization for engaging in social ostracization of gay people.
The media never shows any problems with gay people. No one has ever seen Rent.