Is there a reason this isn't being discussed in debate? I'm shocked at the response from the left.(well, not really - the race card is low hanging fruit).
I have a question: Considering all the details of the event, what led up to it, and the people involved, how is it that the first response is "racist massacre"? Is it just the default race-baiting BS that always happens? I've been running through all the information available, and I can't fathom how someone could come to that conclusion after a sensible look at what happened.
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Is there a reason this isn't being discussed in debate? I'm shocked at the response from the left.(well, not really - the race card is low hanging fruit).
I have a question: Considering all the details of the event, what led up to it, and the people involved, how is it that the first response is "racist massacre"? Is it just the default race-baiting BS that always happens? I've been running through all the information available, and I can't fathom how someone could come to that conclusion after a sensible look at what happened.
Pretty much.
The moment a black young adult is shot and killed by a police, then the race card will be played. A big legacy of the Trayvon Martin case.
I considered making a post about it in debate, but aside from giving a few people the opportunity to say the kid had it coming I'm not sure what I'd really say.
It was ****ed up. Its endemic of systemic racism in our police system. The response is predictable to the point of existential sadness. People are justifiably angry, protesters are called looters, more extreme responses are happening from police and the right wing media starts a smear campaign almost immediately.
What, exactly, are we debating here? It is patently obvious that this has to do with race. Young, unarmed black men are being shot and killed by white cops with a shocking sense of regularity.
When white people bring AR-15's into a Chipotle nothing happens other than we make fun of them.
The real issue here, if one wants to make an issue, is police brutality (AFAIK, that is the actual reason why the folks at Ferguson are getting so riled up- They see this as the culmination of police callousness and aggressive behavior).
That brutality could certainly be rooted in fear of black people. Or maybe fear of very very large people. Or maybe fear of very very large black people.
Regardless, I think that trying to make it about race is self-defeating.
I considered making a post about it in debate, but aside from giving a few people the opportunity to say the kid had it coming I'm not sure what I'd really say.
It was ****ed up. Its endemic of systemic racism in our police system. The response is predictable to the point of existential sadness. People are justifiably angry, protesters are called looters, more extreme responses are happening from police and the right wing media starts a smear campaign almost immediately.
What, exactly, are we debating here? It is patently obvious that this has to do with race. Young, unarmed black men are being shot and killed by white cops with a shocking sense of regularity.
When white people bring AR-15's into a Chipotle nothing happens other than we make fun of them.
Black guy jaywalks and startles a cop.
Gat gat gat mothe****er
What we're debating is how you can come to the conclusion that this incident was in ANY way based on race.
Brown assaulted an officer (who was severely bruised and may have broken an eye socket) when told to get off of a street that he was blocking traffic on (he wasn't crossing - he was walking down the street as if it were a sidewalk). He then backed away from the officer, and, depending on which witness you believe, was either putting his hands up or not. Forensics can't tell if he was, but ALL the shots hit him from the front - so he wasn't running. The only eyewitness that claims that the officer was starting a scene was Brown's admitted accomplice in a recent robbery. . Please, explain to me how the officer's actions in that situation were in ANY way racist - at this point, the only thing you have to go on is the story from brown's accomplice, who originally claimed brown was shot in the back as he ran and claimed that they were polite as all heck and the officer started the incident.
Care to actually add in the details and see whether your comparison holds up?
Both men where unarmed both where innocent both had just left the store both where confronted by a cop and both ended up dead. [/quote]
Actually, seems like the white guy getting shot by the black officer was significantly more senseless and completely unfair. Where IS the outrage over that? I guess white people dying is just normal, right?
The real problem isn't so much the race issue, but the militarization of the police. Given how the Ferguson riots have unfolded, the police militarization is finally getting outrage from mainstream media and politicians. This is no longer a conspiracy theory that everyone can laugh at. Seeing the police dressed like soldiers is very real, and extremely alarming. I don't see how a free society can coexist with the police being militarized the way they have in the past 10-15 years.
The real problem isn't so much the race issue, but the militarization of the police. Given how the Ferguson riots have unfolded, the police militarization is finally getting outrage from mainstream media and politicians. This is no longer a conspiracy theory that everyone can laugh at. Seeing the police dressed like soldiers is very real, and extremely alarming. I don't see how a free society can coexist with the police being militarized the way they have in the past 10-15 years.
But that ISNT the dialogue that I'm seeing from most people/news sources. Its the same old, "OMG, White guy shot a black guy, impending race war!" stuff - and while I do think that the militarization thing is an issue, I don't think its fair to discuss it in this context - looking and violence have been pretty commonplace in ferguson since this happened. I wouldn't feel safe, as a non-rioter, if cops were out in standard uniforms with tasers.
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But that ISNT the dialogue that I'm seeing from most people/news sources. Its the same old, "OMG, White guy shot a black guy, impending race war!" stuff - and while I do think that the militarization thing is an issue, I don't think its fair to discuss it in this context - looking and violence have been pretty commonplace in ferguson since this happened. I wouldn't feel safe, as a non-rioter, if cops were out in standard uniforms with tasers.
What if they're rioting BECAUSE of the militarization of the police and heavy-handed actions from them?
What if they're rioting BECAUSE of the militarization of the police and heavy-handed actions from them?
Then they're idiots if they think riots are going to solve that problem. If you throw a molotov cocktail into a crowd of cops, don't be surprised if the come back in armored cars with tear gas and rubber bullets.
Though, from what I've seen, there is MORE rioting re: justice for brown than police brutality in general. I feel like that discussion was added in after the fact, considering that the initial response wasn't full freaking armor until the riots escalated.
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Look, guys. We don't know what happened. There are conflicting witness statements, and a laundry list of complicating variables. Even if Wilson is a flaming racist, if Brown was actively going for his gun or otherwise attacking with risk of serious injury, Wilson is justified. And even if Wilson is a saint of tolerance and Brown assaulted him, if Brown then backed off and tried to surrender before Wilson shot him, Wilson is culpable. There are so many different possible stories with different consequences - different ways Brown could have screwed up, Wilson could have screwed up, and their screw-ups could have interacted. Bluntly, anybody who says categorically that they know Brown or Wilson is culpable is full of it.
Which is why the response is so distressing. Too many people think they know enough to be angry. Their minds are made up, and were made up from the moment they read the headline "White Cop Shoots Unarmed Black Teenager". I am grimly certain that many would think it a miscarriage of justice even if Jesus Christ himself came down from the heavens to hear the case and decided that Wilson was innocent of wrongdoing. You'll pardon the racially charged term, but it's absolutely the appropriate one: this is lynch mob mentality. The protestors want Wilson's head, and don't give a damn about presumption of innocence or due process.
And too much of the anger is being channeled into activities that would be unacceptable even if the anger itself turns out to be totally justified. ECP - Looting and vandalism are occurring in Ferguson. Don't try to spin this as a purely peaceful protest that is getting smeared in the media. Yes, most of the protesters are peaceful. The Brown family has called for calm, and I've read reports of scuffles as the peaceful protesters try to stop the vandals, which is of course to their credit. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't be very concerned about the lawlessness, or that it doesn't call for a strong police response.
That said, Ferguson's police response has been abysmal. They're a small-town police department and clearly had no idea what they were doing. I actually do think they were right to try to withhold the name of Darren Wilson - because, again, presumption of innocence vs. the lynch mob mentality - but they could have been much more transparent with a lot of other information, and instead they stonewalled completely. And if a strong police response to lawlessness is justified, calling in the National Guard is just crazy. For at least the first week of this thing, everything the government side did has been pretty much exactly the best choice for escalating the crisis.
Because of course the real explanation for what's going on here is not the shooting of Michael Brown. That was just the trigger for the deep, deep fault lines of suspicion and mistrust running through the Ferguson community. The black people have no confidence in their very white government. And while the whiteness makes the government patently clueless and tone-deaf on racial issues, I hate to say it, but it doesn't sound like the root cause of it is entirely its fault. An NPR story mentioned that voter turnout in Ferguson was 12%. Twelve percent. Even Al Sharpton (whose general stance on the issue is of course entirely predictable) called that "an insult to your children". If anything good is to come of this, it may be that this revelation has birthed a voter registration effort among the protesters.
But it's a mess. It's just all a big ****ing mess.
Again, I don't know what happened. Nobody does. If I had to make a wager, I'd put money down that the white police officer with the gun did something wrong, and that race was involved somehow, because unfortunately that's the way these things usually go in this country. But I'm not going to send a man to prison on a wager, or march in the streets, or throw bricks through windows. Due process doesn't run on percentages; it runs on the facts of the particular case in question, and that's it. Until those facts are known, all of this is sad, disturbing, and pointless.
Well said, This is a case that may take some time to gather all of the facts . There is no doubt the State of Missouri and local police could have handled the situation better.
Blinking Spirit that was very well said. I do think the fact that this kid was unarmed makes it more likely the officer was in the wrong, even if he was legally justified. Between the pepper spray, baton, taser, and training given to most officers I don't get why you have to shoot someone multiple times when they don't have a weapon. I will say, reiterating Blinking's notion that the most important thing is that there is a fair trial and investigation that comports with due process. One thing I want to add. I work in Missouri in a government job that deals with the police on a regular basis. While I live about 2.5 hours from Ferguson and can only speak for one rural county, not the best cops in the world. Largely uneducated and inept. Many have the badass with a badge mentality. To be fair, I never dealt with them as often before either.
Between the pepper spray, baton, taser, and training given to most officers I don't get why you have to shoot someone multiple times when they don't have a weapon.
Given the size of Michael Brown, if he did indeed charge Wilson, I don't think would have been unreasonable for Wilson to believe that his life was in danger and that pepper spray/baton/taser would not have reliably kept him safe. Nor is the fact that he fired six times especially indicative; a man who fears for his life cannot be expected to be economical with bullets.
I'm not saying that's what happened. These facts are consistent with that theory, but they're also consistent with the "He just shot Brown for the hell of it" theory. To rule out theories, investigators have to find facts that are inconsistent with them.
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to paraphrase Sherlock Holmes: I never get attached to theories, because then you start shifting facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.
I agree with Blinking Spirit: there just isn't enough evidence. I am willing to give Officer Wilson the BOTD, but as the situation unfolds, I will either condemn him or congratulate him on his performance that night. As it stands right now, I cannot say that I would convict him if I were on the jury and the evidence as it stands now is accurate, Because there is reasonable doubt as to how it went down.
Is there a reason this isn't being discussed in debate? I'm shocked at the response from the left.(well, not really - the race card is low hanging fruit).
I have a question: Considering all the details of the event, what led up to it, and the people involved, how is it that the first response is "racist massacre"? Is it just the default race-baiting BS that always happens? I've been running through all the information available, and I can't fathom how someone could come to that conclusion after a sensible look at what happened.
Remind me to alert the media on your behalf as you've so sufficiently cut through centuries of American dialogue on race and truly come to an understanding of the situation there and across America.
Remind me to alert the media on your behalf as you've so sufficiently cut through centuries of American dialogue on race and truly come to an understanding of the situation there and across America.
So - this IS just people blindly playing the race card without looking at any sort of facts? Good to know.
BS - While I agree with you for the most part, I think that the protestors have erred more on the wrong side than anyone (excluding, perhaps, the sensationalist media BS that always happens in these situations.) There is definitely missteps on both sides, but the immediate jump to race-war mentality was the biggest misstep of all of them, imo.
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Blinking Spirit that was very well said. I do think the fact that this kid was unarmed makes it more likely the officer was in the wrong, even if he was legally justified. Between the pepper spray, baton, taser, and training given to most officers I don't get why you have to shoot someone multiple times when they don't have a weapon.
Michael Brown was approx. 6ft 4ish and weighed close to 300lb.
I don't say this to justify the officer shooting him. I say this in an attempt to place things into perspective. Michael Brown was BIG.
I really do think it's an issue that people have a low opinion of what the human body is capable of, especially when it reaches that kind of size.
BS - While I agree with you for the most part, I think that the protestors have erred more on the wrong side than anyone (excluding, perhaps, the sensationalist media BS that always happens in these situations.) There is definitely missteps on both sides, but the immediate jump to race-war mentality was the biggest misstep of all of them, imo.
If Darren Wilson is culpable, then his is the biggest misstep of all of them. So far, nobody else's actions have caused the loss of a life - fortunately.
Beyond that, it's not about which side is "more wrong". That's just trying to keep score. It doesn't say anything productive.
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Is there a reason this isn't being discussed in debate? I'm shocked at the response from the left.(well, not really - the race card is low hanging fruit).
I have a question: Considering all the details of the event, what led up to it, and the people involved, how is it that the first response is "racist massacre"? Is it just the default race-baiting BS that always happens? I've been running through all the information available, and I can't fathom how someone could come to that conclusion after a sensible look at what happened.
Pretty much.
The moment a black young adult is shot and killed by a police, then the race card will be played. A big legacy of the Trayvon Martin case.
George Zimmerman was not a police officer.
On a different note, the main problem that I see in Ferguson is the tear gassing and threatening to shoot reporters, journalists, and peaceful protesters.
On a different note, the main problem that I see in Ferguson is the tear gassing and threatening to shoot reporters, journalists, and peaceful protesters.
That he wasn't.
Is it though? The times they gassed journalists was an accident - they immediately went in to help them. While there have been isolated incidents of what you'd call police brutality (that one cop yelling "ill ******* kill you" - and he was put on leave immediately), for the most part I don't think the police response has been too violent - I mean, they only escalated to the armored vehicles and such because of the looting and violence from protestors.
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I have a question: Considering all the details of the event, what led up to it, and the people involved, how is it that the first response is "racist massacre"? Is it just the default race-baiting BS that always happens? I've been running through all the information available, and I can't fathom how someone could come to that conclusion after a sensible look at what happened.
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Pretty much.
The moment a black young adult is shot and killed by a police, then the race card will be played. A big legacy of the Trayvon Martin case.
It was ****ed up. Its endemic of systemic racism in our police system. The response is predictable to the point of existential sadness. People are justifiably angry, protesters are called looters, more extreme responses are happening from police and the right wing media starts a smear campaign almost immediately.
What, exactly, are we debating here? It is patently obvious that this has to do with race. Young, unarmed black men are being shot and killed by white cops with a shocking sense of regularity.
When white people bring AR-15's into a Chipotle nothing happens other than we make fun of them.
Black guy jaywalks and startles a cop.
Gat gat gat mothe****er
That brutality could certainly be rooted in fear of black people. Or maybe fear of very very large people. Or maybe fear of very very large black people.
Regardless, I think that trying to make it about race is self-defeating.
Care to actually add in the details and see whether your comparison holds up?
What we're debating is how you can come to the conclusion that this incident was in ANY way based on race.
Brown assaulted an officer (who was severely bruised and may have broken an eye socket) when told to get off of a street that he was blocking traffic on (he wasn't crossing - he was walking down the street as if it were a sidewalk). He then backed away from the officer, and, depending on which witness you believe, was either putting his hands up or not. Forensics can't tell if he was, but ALL the shots hit him from the front - so he wasn't running. The only eyewitness that claims that the officer was starting a scene was Brown's admitted accomplice in a recent robbery. . Please, explain to me how the officer's actions in that situation were in ANY way racist - at this point, the only thing you have to go on is the story from brown's accomplice, who originally claimed brown was shot in the back as he ran and claimed that they were polite as all heck and the officer started the incident.
Both men where unarmed both where innocent both had just left the store both where confronted by a cop and both ended up dead. [/quote]
Actually, seems like the white guy getting shot by the black officer was significantly more senseless and completely unfair. Where IS the outrage over that? I guess white people dying is just normal, right?
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But that ISNT the dialogue that I'm seeing from most people/news sources. Its the same old, "OMG, White guy shot a black guy, impending race war!" stuff - and while I do think that the militarization thing is an issue, I don't think its fair to discuss it in this context - looking and violence have been pretty commonplace in ferguson since this happened. I wouldn't feel safe, as a non-rioter, if cops were out in standard uniforms with tasers.
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What if they're rioting BECAUSE of the militarization of the police and heavy-handed actions from them?
Then they're idiots if they think riots are going to solve that problem. If you throw a molotov cocktail into a crowd of cops, don't be surprised if the come back in armored cars with tear gas and rubber bullets.
Though, from what I've seen, there is MORE rioting re: justice for brown than police brutality in general. I feel like that discussion was added in after the fact, considering that the initial response wasn't full freaking armor until the riots escalated.
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Which is why the response is so distressing. Too many people think they know enough to be angry. Their minds are made up, and were made up from the moment they read the headline "White Cop Shoots Unarmed Black Teenager". I am grimly certain that many would think it a miscarriage of justice even if Jesus Christ himself came down from the heavens to hear the case and decided that Wilson was innocent of wrongdoing. You'll pardon the racially charged term, but it's absolutely the appropriate one: this is lynch mob mentality. The protestors want Wilson's head, and don't give a damn about presumption of innocence or due process.
And too much of the anger is being channeled into activities that would be unacceptable even if the anger itself turns out to be totally justified. ECP - Looting and vandalism are occurring in Ferguson. Don't try to spin this as a purely peaceful protest that is getting smeared in the media. Yes, most of the protesters are peaceful. The Brown family has called for calm, and I've read reports of scuffles as the peaceful protesters try to stop the vandals, which is of course to their credit. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't be very concerned about the lawlessness, or that it doesn't call for a strong police response.
That said, Ferguson's police response has been abysmal. They're a small-town police department and clearly had no idea what they were doing. I actually do think they were right to try to withhold the name of Darren Wilson - because, again, presumption of innocence vs. the lynch mob mentality - but they could have been much more transparent with a lot of other information, and instead they stonewalled completely. And if a strong police response to lawlessness is justified, calling in the National Guard is just crazy. For at least the first week of this thing, everything the government side did has been pretty much exactly the best choice for escalating the crisis.
Because of course the real explanation for what's going on here is not the shooting of Michael Brown. That was just the trigger for the deep, deep fault lines of suspicion and mistrust running through the Ferguson community. The black people have no confidence in their very white government. And while the whiteness makes the government patently clueless and tone-deaf on racial issues, I hate to say it, but it doesn't sound like the root cause of it is entirely its fault. An NPR story mentioned that voter turnout in Ferguson was 12%. Twelve percent. Even Al Sharpton (whose general stance on the issue is of course entirely predictable) called that "an insult to your children". If anything good is to come of this, it may be that this revelation has birthed a voter registration effort among the protesters.
But it's a mess. It's just all a big ****ing mess.
Again, I don't know what happened. Nobody does. If I had to make a wager, I'd put money down that the white police officer with the gun did something wrong, and that race was involved somehow, because unfortunately that's the way these things usually go in this country. But I'm not going to send a man to prison on a wager, or march in the streets, or throw bricks through windows. Due process doesn't run on percentages; it runs on the facts of the particular case in question, and that's it. Until those facts are known, all of this is sad, disturbing, and pointless.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
I'm not saying that's what happened. These facts are consistent with that theory, but they're also consistent with the "He just shot Brown for the hell of it" theory. To rule out theories, investigators have to find facts that are inconsistent with them.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
I agree with Blinking Spirit: there just isn't enough evidence. I am willing to give Officer Wilson the BOTD, but as the situation unfolds, I will either condemn him or congratulate him on his performance that night. As it stands right now, I cannot say that I would convict him if I were on the jury and the evidence as it stands now is accurate, Because there is reasonable doubt as to how it went down.
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V. incorrect math.
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III: irony.
there are two kinds of people in the world: those who can make reasonable conclusions based on conjecture.
Remind me to alert the media on your behalf as you've so sufficiently cut through centuries of American dialogue on race and truly come to an understanding of the situation there and across America.
So - this IS just people blindly playing the race card without looking at any sort of facts? Good to know.
BS - While I agree with you for the most part, I think that the protestors have erred more on the wrong side than anyone (excluding, perhaps, the sensationalist media BS that always happens in these situations.) There is definitely missteps on both sides, but the immediate jump to race-war mentality was the biggest misstep of all of them, imo.
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Michael Brown was approx. 6ft 4ish and weighed close to 300lb.
I don't say this to justify the officer shooting him. I say this in an attempt to place things into perspective. Michael Brown was BIG.
I really do think it's an issue that people have a low opinion of what the human body is capable of, especially when it reaches that kind of size.
Beyond that, it's not about which side is "more wrong". That's just trying to keep score. It doesn't say anything productive.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
George Zimmerman was not a police officer.
On a different note, the main problem that I see in Ferguson is the tear gassing and threatening to shoot reporters, journalists, and peaceful protesters.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
That he wasn't.
Is it though? The times they gassed journalists was an accident - they immediately went in to help them. While there have been isolated incidents of what you'd call police brutality (that one cop yelling "ill ******* kill you" - and he was put on leave immediately), for the most part I don't think the police response has been too violent - I mean, they only escalated to the armored vehicles and such because of the looting and violence from protestors.
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