Certainly there are social protocols that are relaxed or ignored in nerd culture. But I don't think this is one of them. Males attending these events expect to have their personal space respected while playing card games just as much as while standing in line at the bank.
Imagine someone came up to me at the bank and said, while I was mid-conversation with the teller, "hey man I've got cellphones for trade, let me see your phone and you can look at my phones and see if there's anything you want to trade it for." He then dumps 10 phones on the counter, starts shoving them in my face, and asks me to get my phone out of my pocket and show it to him. When I refuse and try to continue talking to the teller, he starts handing me other phones and continues asking me to get my phone out.
He would have the police called on him.
This happens constantly at MTG tournaments and shops (replacing cards with phones obviously) and is universally tolerated.
I think the analogy is a little weak because there's no reason to suspect that someone at a bank is there to trade cellphones. People who are at a trading card tournament or store can be reasonably expected to have an interest in trading cards.
Even so, as I said, there definitely are social protocols which are relaxed in these environments. Some deficiencies in social graces are definitely accepted and expected. But that doesn't imply that it's social anarchy.
Violation of personal space, interruption of a conversation, blunt demands to see my cards. To me, this is far more invasive than being bumped into a few times.
Maybe Owlington's situation goes above and beyond this kind of invasion, and if so that's a problem. From what I'm hearing, though, it's probably comparable.
Again, we all agree that innocent, accidental bumps and bustles are to be expected and are acceptable. Since we're all in agreement there, can we keep ourselves to the hypothetical where this really was an unpleasant sexual advance that would be wildly inappropriate elsewhere? Do you think MTG has a culture that makes that acceptable?
Again, we all agree that innocent, accidental bumps and bustles are to be expected and are acceptable. Since we're all in agreement there, can we keep ourselves to the hypothetical where this really was an unpleasant sexual advance that would be wildly inappropriate elsewhere? Do you think MTG has a culture that makes that acceptable?
The person invading my personal space to proposition me for a trade is not doing so innocently or accidentally. He's doing it deliberately.
Since some degree of deliberate, unwanted violation of personal space is considered acceptable by the MTG community in the context of trading, we would also expect some amount of deliberate, unwanted violation of personal space would be considered acceptable by the MTG community in other social contexts as well, including romantic advances. Something like a half-dozen deliberate bumps over the course of the night would probably be considered acceptable by MTG culture.
Obviously there's a point where it's over the line even for MTG culture. I don't know exactly where that line is, and I don't know whether the line was crossed in Owlington's hypothetical. But it seems plausible to me that the "normal culture line" was crossed (making the woman uncomfortable) but the "MTG culture line" wasn't crossed, meaning the other player's behavior was acceptable in its cultural context.
The person invading my personal space to proposition me for a trade is not doing so innocently or accidentally. He's doing it deliberately.
Since some degree of deliberate, unwanted violation of personal space is considered acceptable by the MTG community in the context of trading, we would also expect some amount of deliberate, unwanted violation of personal space would be considered acceptable by the MTG community in other social contexts as well, including romantic advances.
Unwanted violation is not socially acceptable. That's why it's unwanted. People commonly interrupt others with trade requests. People don't mind being interrupted with trade requests, because it's expected. It's acceptable. It's not unwanted.
By contrast, I sincerely doubt anyone wants to be repeatedly deliberately bumped against. That's not socially accepted.
Something like a half-dozen deliberate bumps over the course of the night would probably be considered acceptable by MTG culture.
This is complete nonsense.
Obviously there's a point where it's over the line even for MTG culture. I don't know exactly where that line is, and I don't know whether the line was crossed in Owlington's hypothetical. But it seems plausible to me that the "normal culture line" was crossed (making the woman uncomfortable) but the "MTG culture line" wasn't crossed, meaning the other player's behavior was acceptable in its cultural context.
The point where it's over the line even for MTG culture is the point at which people who are members of that culture would find it intrusive and unwanted.
Misogyny among nerds is a problem, though. I'll be the first to admit it. Mostly it's nerds blaming women for their own lack of confidence, i.e. the 'friend zone'.
My own experiences have been quite different, but there could be plenty of reasons for that - maybe I got lucky, maybe the culture just different here in Europe - but I have never experienced people being anything but nice and welcoming towards me. There have been some teenagers acting awkward - not unpleasant, just awkward. Hormones racing through their bodies at that age and such. One kept complimenting my deck and my sleeves and my cards and while it was slightly uncomfortable in the sense that he was falling over his own words while I was just trying to play the game. Still, he wasn't unpleasant.
Now, there are unpleasant individuals out there, no doubt about that. And there are probably genuine misogynists in that group. But I don't think the solution to that is painting the whole Magic community with broad strokes like that article did. Aggression should not be met with aggression. Instead, everyone should focus on making it clear that these things are not acceptable when the situation does arise. But I think that people are becoming aware of it and that there is a general attitude in most places that being... Well, that being a dick to other people is not acceptable. Whether it's ripping off kids in trades, making unwanted advances towards women or just trying to cheat at the game, I think the Magic community is generally advancing towards being more welcoming and less accepting of unsociable behaviour. It's a slow process to be sure, but I think the way to help it along is positive reinforcement, rather than negative.
It depends on the nerds. Obviously it's more of a problem with creators. Comic books have a long history of being bad about sex. The classic example is Avengers 200, but...well, Cracked has lists of this hamfisted difficulty with sex.
In Magic, I would say Orim falling in love with Cho-Manno after the Cho-Arrim captured her is...problematic to say the least, but that was over a decade ago.
Now, what happens online is another thing. I don't play MTGO, so I don't know if it's like other online games. I know it became a Bitcoin market for a while, but that's about it. But the tournament scene means that if you're an ass, they have a face to associate with you being an ass.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I don't think Magic has ever been bad about this. There has certainly been specific examples of art and writing that's bad and was given the go-ahead by Wizards, but in most cases, it's been pretty balanced. For example, you have Reversal of Fortune which is obviously just meant to appeal to sexually frustrated male teens, but if you look at the Vulshok (red humans) from Mirrodin in general, it kinda goes bothways. I mean, Koth. Damn. That is definitely quite the beefcake and not what I would call a realistic standard for young men, but it's also a pretty clear indication that they're certainly not ignorant of the fringe demographics of female and gay male players.
Not sure if the Vulshok are what most people would consider sexy. I mean, considering the metal growths are an indication the whole world's ill...But I'll always remember that some here like the beefcake.
I was more referring to the idea of falling in love with your captor. It's certainly a common storyline, mostly seen in romance novels set in a different century.
All-in-all, I don't think Wizards are bad about this in general. Yeah, they mess up sometimes, but they're usually pretty fair about having plenty of non-sexualised characters and also with sexualising both genders when they are doing fanservice. Especially in modern Magic. Personally, there's only one artist that I find bothersome and that's because I feel that a lot of his drawings seem to be made to appeal to 13-year-olds. See, I think fanservice can be done tastefully and in a way that doesn't bother you too much if it's not directed at you. But the stuff Steve Argyle draws is just horrible. I mean, it's not that looks bad, it's that it's a mixture of terrible anatomy (Posesmainly) and just the most juvenile kinds of sexual appeal that you can think of. It's not the fact that he does a lot of fanservice-y pieces that bothers me, though - it's that he's terrible at it. For a counter-example of what I mean by fanservice that's tasteful and well done, look at Master Transmuter. She doesn't even have jiggly parts and plenty of people still practically fell in love with her. I'm not saying that having jiggly parts is bad - I'm saying that this piece managed to be attractive to people without even having any. Perhaps Mr. Argyle could stand to learn something.
The big problem is poor anatomy, which also takes it out of the realm of 'sexy'. But I suppose some will like it. But in general, I agree with you on this. (Also, Master Transmuter, because she's not just jiggly parts.)
As a whole, though, I don't think it's sexism - it's simply an attempt at appealing to a certain part of the core demographic. I mean, I've seen plenty of people online who will get pretty pissed if you suggest that anything might be wrong with Argyle's more... Anatomically liberated pieces. "What, you don't like it? Are you some kind of butt pirate?" The truth is, there's a lot of people out there who like it, and Wizards are simply making the fiscally sound decision to cash in on it. Meanwhile, though, they're also creating good, interesting characters that are very different from what this demographic might identify with. I think they're just trying to cast as wide a net as possible, honestly.
Oh, believe me, it can get worse. Again, I can't help but think of the comic book fandom. (This time, DC.) Look at the reaction to Janelle Asselin's review of Teen Titans 1's cover. The cover itself looks all wrong. Wonder Girl's breasts and the fact that either Red Robin is kaiju-sized or that door on the wall he's sitting on is meant for mice being the two parts I noticed first.
Surprise, surprise, she got rape threats for pointing out just how *****ty the cover is. Because that's how the internet is.
And this is a good thing, because it encourages people not to be that. Because, in general, the community takes umbrage with people who are. Most people are just normal people who wanna play games and have fun with whoever's willing to do so. Be they male, female, fat, skinny, white, Asian, black, native, cis, trans, gay, straight, you name it. Most people just don't care. Does that mean that there aren't any people out there who are just unlikable individuals? No, it doesn't. But as long as we as a community are aware that those people exist and don't tolerate their behaviour, I think we'll be fine.
Totally agree. IRL, saying "I'll cut out your [expletive deleted] and drink your blood from it" (an actual threat Anita Sarkeesian received) will get you arrested.
The worst I get is pedantic when people who don't know what their own cards do.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
This is a societal thing, not just about "nerd culture". Find any other hobby that is predominantly pursued by one gender and the other gender is not always made to feel welcome.
Have any of you ever been to a large car show, wet tshirt contests, bikini contests, girls dressed in next to nothing and turned into nothing more than hood ornaments.
Also, maybe this feminist is just socially awkward and doesn't exactly fit in with many people, regardless of gender.
Would any of you guys feel comfortable going somewhere were it was 99% women? A toddlers pageant maybe? Girls gymnastics? Some type of crafting expo?
This (the bumping thing) happens quite often we are big people in a small space. Many shops do not have enough room for us to play comfortably. Bumping does happen in such cases. I have often be bumped by everyone to my left once each round at very minimum.
I think the analogy is a little weak because there's no reason to suspect that someone at a bank is there to trade cellphones. People who are at a trading card tournament or store can be reasonably expected to have an interest in trading cards.
Even so, as I said, there definitely are social protocols which are relaxed in these environments. Some deficiencies in social graces are definitely accepted and expected. But that doesn't imply that it's social anarchy.
Again, we all agree that innocent, accidental bumps and bustles are to be expected and are acceptable. Since we're all in agreement there, can we keep ourselves to the hypothetical where this really was an unpleasant sexual advance that would be wildly inappropriate elsewhere? Do you think MTG has a culture that makes that acceptable?
The person invading my personal space to proposition me for a trade is not doing so innocently or accidentally. He's doing it deliberately.
Since some degree of deliberate, unwanted violation of personal space is considered acceptable by the MTG community in the context of trading, we would also expect some amount of deliberate, unwanted violation of personal space would be considered acceptable by the MTG community in other social contexts as well, including romantic advances. Something like a half-dozen deliberate bumps over the course of the night would probably be considered acceptable by MTG culture.
Obviously there's a point where it's over the line even for MTG culture. I don't know exactly where that line is, and I don't know whether the line was crossed in Owlington's hypothetical. But it seems plausible to me that the "normal culture line" was crossed (making the woman uncomfortable) but the "MTG culture line" wasn't crossed, meaning the other player's behavior was acceptable in its cultural context.
Unwanted violation is not socially acceptable. That's why it's unwanted. People commonly interrupt others with trade requests. People don't mind being interrupted with trade requests, because it's expected. It's acceptable. It's not unwanted.
By contrast, I sincerely doubt anyone wants to be repeatedly deliberately bumped against. That's not socially accepted.
This is complete nonsense.
The point where it's over the line even for MTG culture is the point at which people who are members of that culture would find it intrusive and unwanted.
It depends on the nerds. Obviously it's more of a problem with creators. Comic books have a long history of being bad about sex. The classic example is Avengers 200, but...well, Cracked has lists of this hamfisted difficulty with sex.
In Magic, I would say Orim falling in love with Cho-Manno after the Cho-Arrim captured her is...problematic to say the least, but that was over a decade ago.
Now, what happens online is another thing. I don't play MTGO, so I don't know if it's like other online games. I know it became a Bitcoin market for a while, but that's about it. But the tournament scene means that if you're an ass, they have a face to associate with you being an ass.
On phasing:
Not sure if the Vulshok are what most people would consider sexy. I mean, considering the metal growths are an indication the whole world's ill...But I'll always remember that some here like the beefcake.
I was more referring to the idea of falling in love with your captor. It's certainly a common storyline, mostly seen in romance novels set in a different century.
The big problem is poor anatomy, which also takes it out of the realm of 'sexy'. But I suppose some will like it. But in general, I agree with you on this. (Also, Master Transmuter, because she's not just jiggly parts.)
Oh, believe me, it can get worse. Again, I can't help but think of the comic book fandom. (This time, DC.) Look at the reaction to Janelle Asselin's review of Teen Titans 1's cover. The cover itself looks all wrong. Wonder Girl's breasts and the fact that either Red Robin is kaiju-sized or that door on the wall he's sitting on is meant for mice being the two parts I noticed first.
Surprise, surprise, she got rape threats for pointing out just how *****ty the cover is. Because that's how the internet is.
Totally agree. IRL, saying "I'll cut out your [expletive deleted] and drink your blood from it" (an actual threat Anita Sarkeesian received) will get you arrested.
The worst I get is pedantic when people who don't know what their own cards do.
On phasing:
Have any of you ever been to a large car show, wet tshirt contests, bikini contests, girls dressed in next to nothing and turned into nothing more than hood ornaments.
Also, maybe this feminist is just socially awkward and doesn't exactly fit in with many people, regardless of gender.
Would any of you guys feel comfortable going somewhere were it was 99% women? A toddlers pageant maybe? Girls gymnastics? Some type of crafting expo?
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
In a place that wasn't too small.